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💬 Show Notes

In this episode of Be & Think in the House of Trust, Servane invites Ugo Ikokwu, the leader of Trust for London's racial justice programme. With over two decades of experience spanning finance, philanthropy, and social change, Ugo is a unique connector of stories and actions that bridge funders, communities, and social justice.

The Sound of Justice

Hugo reflects on the essence of justice today, describing it as the sound of trust – the trust between communities and institutions, and the voices of those historically ignored finally being heard. True justice is not silence but participation, where every individual contributes to the conversation.

Language of Dignity

The reflection goes deeper into how the words we choose can either empower or diminish communities. Ugo advocates a shift from narratives of deficiency to narratives that celebrate dignity, ownership, and possibility, as language shapes our perceptions of justice and community.

The Role of Money

For Ugo, money is a powerful tool that can either amplify or silence expressions of justice, depending on who controls it. When communities hold the resources, they can unlock their potential and shape their futures, while also questioning the dynamics of power and access within financial systems.

Beauty in Togetherness

Ugo paints a vivid picture of beauty in his work – a city where communities thrive, where individuals feel they belong, and where diverse voices shape their environment.

At this point, Ugo challenges the notion of progress that overlooks the people and cultures that make a place vibrant.

Join us as we explore these themes and more!

How do you reflect on your roles in generating more trust, justice, and community connection?

Connect with Ugo:

Trust for London: https://trustforlondon.org.uk

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ugo-ikokwu-2b430641/

Connect with Servane:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/servanemouazan/

Website: https://servanemouazan.co.uk

Subscribe to Conscious Innovation updates:

http://eepurl.com/hp0h55

Podcast Music Production from Series 04 Ep 45: Milig Mouazan-Strachan

Servane Mouazan: Welcome back to the House of Trust. My name is Servane Mouazan thinking partner at Conscious Innovation. Today I'm in conversation with Ugo Ikokwu from Trust for London, where he leads the Trust's racial justice programme. Ugo is a leader who spent over two decades moving between the world's finance, philanthropy and social change. And he's a rare dot connector. He weaves in stories and action of funders, community strategy, lived experience, money, justice, social justice, racial justice. And he has designed and led funds from idea to impact. And he understands how capital can both unlock, and sometimes block change. So in this episode in the House of Trust, I'd like to lift the veil on that complex journey from the moment resources are raised and shaped and stewarded, but also how we can be a, challenger of systems while working within the systems. Ugo, Welcome.

Ugo Ikokwu: Hello, Servane. Good morning. Thank you so much. it's a pleasure to be here with you today.

Servane Mouazan: Thank you for being with us.

If justice had a texture or a sound in London today what would that be

So, Ugo I'm just going to dive in straight. If justice had a texture or a sound in London today, what would that be?

Ugo Ikokwu: Very interesting. It's interesting because one of the reasons I was excited about this conversation is because that sort of theme of trust, relationships, and collaboration, they sit right at the heart of, of what I do every day. and in many ways my work, isn't really about money, it's about people. It's about understanding what helps people thrive. It's about understanding what happens when communities are trusted, are given the resources, the influence and the opportunities to shape their own future. And in many ways it's about exploring what institutions need to do differently if they generally want to create, lasting change. And I guess in response to your question, that's, you know, for me, in many ways, if I had to think about what, justice sort of looked like in London today, I would sort of preface it against the backdrop of, you know, my, my work, it's very much about trust. Often when people hear the word trust, they often think about relationships between individuals. Do I trust you? Can I rely on you? will you do what you say you're going to do? But the more I've worked in philanthropy and social investment, community development, the more I've realised that, trust is actually one of the defining issues of our time. So I would say the sort of the sound of justice would look like trust, not simply whether individuals trust one another, but whether communities trust institutions, whether citizens trust government, whether people trust markets, whether organisations trust Communities, and perhaps more importantly, whether we have, built systems that are themselves trustworthy. Because I've spent a lot of time asking why people don't trust institutions anymore without asking whether those institutions, have behaved in ways that actually deserve trust. And so when I look across the work I do today, whether that's racial justice, housing, community wealth building or regeneration, many of the challenges, that we fundamentally face are around trust. People don't feel decisions are being made without them. So that. That's what it feels like now. I often think about a phrase I heard years ago. Nothing about us without us. and while it sounds simple, it's quite. It's actually quite radical because it forces us to ask who's in the room, who's making, sort of decisions. I guess what I'm trying to say, I don't think it would be a single sound. It would be the sound of lots of sort of different voices that have been historically ignored finally being heard. It would be the sound of, say, a tenant who is speaking at, a planning meeting and genuinely influencing the outcome of that meeting. It will be the sound of a young person realising

Ugo Ikokwu: that their voice actually matters. It will be the sound, you know, ironically, of a market trader, a community organiser, a migrant worker, a disabled worker, a parent. You know, all of these people having a seat, a seat at the table, when decisions are made. So justice isn't silence, it's participation. You know, and perhaps the sound of justice is, is people no longer having to shout just to be noticed. it would sound like a city in conversation with itself. Not just powerful people talking to other powerful people, but everyone being part of that conversation. Like different languages on a bus. You know, one of the things I love about London is just being, you know, on a bus. The sound of different languages, children playing in estates that haven't been demolished, you know, market traders opening up in the morning, community meetings in church halls, campaign organising, you know, neighbours looking out for one another. So, yeah, it sounds like belonging M to me.

Servane Mouazan: Yeah. So justice has the texture of trust, which has the sound of conversations that happen without anyone having to shout to be noticed.

Ugo Ikokwu: Yes, absolutely.

Servane Mouazan: Oh, beautiful.

Language influences inclusion, legitimacy and participation in the social impact sector

So I've noticed there is that notion of language, of words, of conversation. A few months ago, you explored with colleagues how language influences inclusion, legitimacy and participation in the social impact sector. And if you could rewrite or reword or rewild, you know, that language, relationship between money, justice, people, people, communities, how would that language sound like on top of what you've already said top of what you've already said.

Ugo Ikokwu: My, first instinct would be to say that it would sound less like shouting on social media. It would sound like opportunities becoming accessible. The sound of someone being invited into a sort of room. The sound of someone saying, we'd like your opinion. And generally meaning would sound less like protest and more like, possibility. It would sound like someone being invited into a room that they previously weren't allowed into. yeah, it's. It's a. It's an interesting one. It would, it would, yeah, it would sound like. More like my possibility. yeah, I don't know if I've. I've answered that.

Servane Mouazan: Well, yeah, there. There's not a good or bad answer here. There's what you feel and I feel there's something here that is just what. You waiting to be warned or what. What would you like to say instead?

Ugo Ikokwu: Yeah, I guess I. I sort of keep, in a way coming back to what I previously said. You know, just. It would be. Would be the language of dignity, not. Not the language of sort of deficient deficiency. I think a lot of the language now, is of sort of charity of rescue. It would be the language of dignity, of agency, of ownership, of possibilities. Because oftentimes the language and the words that we choose don't. Don't just. Just describe the future. It. We sort of help create it through the stories that we tell. And I think the closer our language gets to people's lived experience, that sort of. The closer we get to justice.

Servane Mouazan: yes, I'm sensing as well, there are movements like the Solar Punk movement as well, that create conditions for people to really use a different language where they don't have to ask permission. They can be so shining and beautiful and rich, juicy. What do you think?

Ugo Ikokwu: Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. And just to sort of build on that, because when you think about language, it influences conversations because it determines what we notice, what we value and what we believe is possible. Right. So if it had a sound, it would. It would partly be a shift sort of in language. It would be the difference between talking about people as problems and talking about people as assets. And that's one of the things I really focus on in my line of work. the. The difference between saying hard to reach communities and asking whether institutions themselves have become hard to reach. The difference sort of between talking about beneficiaries and talking about citizens

Ugo Ikokwu: and talking about residents and leaders and owners. The difference between saying, you know, giving people a voice and recognising that people already have a voice. We just simply haven't been listening. it's one of the most powerful forms of infrastructure that we have. Because when you think about it, before sort of policies, before, language changes, before systems changes, you know, language changes, before people imagine sort of a different future, they need words. Describe it, you know.

Servane Mouazan: Yes, yes.

Ugo Ikokwu: If we all talk, if all we talk about is deprivation and disadvantage and need, then what we're doing is we're seeing communities through a lens of scarcity, you know. But if we talk about unused language, like assets, ownership, creativity, wealth, possibilities, we start to see opportunities that were always there. Sometimes I think about how our sector hides behind language, you know, like, you know, the whole thing about systems change. Right. And, yeah, just sort of bringing that in. Intersectionality, social infrastructure, ecosystem building, you know, those concepts, they matter. But often the people closest to the issues, and I guess what I was trying to say is they, they speak more plainly. They talk about having enough money to live. They talk about owning something that can be passed on. They talk about having a say over what happens in their neighbourhood, feeling respected, feeling secure, feeling seen. I, I just think it, it ought to be plain, that that's what it would look like.

Servane Mouazan: Yeah, that's what it feels that, you know, that rewilding is reconnecting with the words that we actually use and that people understand. Yeah. So we've got these, these words as an infrastructure that enables people to flourish and to connect with each other and to bond, to be, hear, wonder.

How does money either amplify or silence justice in the communities you?serve>

Let's talk money now. How does money either amplify or silence that expression of justice, participation in the communities you serve?

Ugo Ikokwu: It's about who has, access to money. Money is a multiplier. Money is a divider. In most cases, it depends on who controls, that money. And in many cases, and in, in my line of work, I've seen that money, silences the expression of justice. Depending on who is, who controls, that money, it amplifies the expression of justice, again, depending on who has control of it. So if money is in the hands of the community, it amplifies the expression of justice. Money is never neutral. I guess that that's kind of what I'm trying to say. It amplifies some voices, it amplifies some ideas, it amplifies some futures while making others really hard to hear. One of the things I've learned working in philanthropy and social investment is that money is often mistaken for power itself, as I said, but money is really a magnifier. it magnifies the values, the assumptions and the priorities of the people who control it. If those people who are controlling resources believe communities are assets, then what money does is it helps to unlock ownership, it helps unlock leadership opportunity. If those groups of people like, feel and believe that communities are problems to be managed, then what money does is it reinforces that sort of dependency, that control and then that extraction. And, if you think about it, and that sort of connection to justice. Justice. In one case, justice often struggles to be heard because it usually starts with people who have the least access to power. As an example, say a tenant is trying to save their market, is a worker is challenging, like unfair working conditions. A young person is demanding, ah, a sort of a different future. You have a community who are fighting to stay in a place that they help build. The challenge is that these voices are often competing against institutions who have vastly greater resources. So what money does is it can either level that conversation or it can drown it out. and, you know, I see that all the time in London and through the work that I do, communities often know exactly what needs to change. And the issue is in that they lack ideas. The issue is that the resources, the legal advice, the capacity to do the research, the sort of political access and the time, are often sitting somewhere else. And so when you think about it through that sort of lens of justice, it's frequently a question of who has the resources to sustain their voice long enough to be heard.

Ugo Ikokwu: And you know, sometimes people think justice is, is just simply about giving more money away. And I, I don't think that that's quite right. Justice is also about asking who owns the money, who decides where it goes, who benefits from it, who gets to shape the future? Like if you spend a million pounds on, on, on people, it's very different from a million pounds being controlled by people. Right.

Servane Mouazan: There's something around the steward ownership in there?

Ugo Ikokwu: Exactly. It, Money amplifies justice when you move it closer to the people who are experiencing the issue. And it silences justice when it asks communities to participate in decisions that have already been made. You know, and the most transformative funding I seen isn't, stuff that says, you know, we, we know the answer is funding that says, look, you understand the problem, let's create the conditions for you to shape the sol. and so for me, if, if kind of money had a purpose, it would be helping those voices become more impossible to ignore.

Servane Mouazan: Yeah, yeah.

What does beauty look like in your work?

There is a. I've got a last question for you and You've probably given some clues. Some clues and some. Some stardust of an answer already. But, in London, if we just. And it could be maybe in many other large cities like London. London itself. So in a city that's shaped by inequalities on one hand, but also extraordinary experiences, what does beauty look like in your work?

Ugo Ikokwu: I would sum it up by saying. I mean, one of our slogans, saying at Trust for London is making London a fairer place for people to live. beauty looks like putting power in the hands of communities. it looks like, created the conditions for communities that have been historically marginalised to thrive. And I use the word thrive, not just, succeed. I use words like thrive, like flourish. That. That's what beauty looks like.

Servane Mouazan: Garden language.

Ugo Ikokwu: Yes, language. Going back to language again, it looks like a city where people feel like they belong again, language. There's a sense of joy. People feel like they are not just residents, say, in a city, but they are, you know, active contributors, participants. They are a, community. A group of people that feel connected, to a place that have roots in a place that feel like they are, ah, part of shaping what that community, looks like, what good looks like in that community. Yeah, that's for me. But I think just coming back to that, where people feel, like they have been given the conditions to thrive, to influence the outcome of, you know, what happens, in that place. It. I think actually the best analogy is going back to what I said. Being on a bus, hearing different languages, getting off that bus. I'm painting a picture in my head, like I'm seeing people who have never met each other before connect. I get off that bus, I'm walking down through an estate. You know, I'm seeing kids playing in that estate. I'm hearing the sound of. Of laughter. I walk past a local community centre, I pop my head in. I can see groups of different associations that come together. They're organising around particular issues within their community. that's the sound of, you know, that. That's what beauty sounds like to me and looks like to me.

Servane Mouazan: And what emerges here and what I'm hearing you say is, ah, that beauty is the contrary of separation, is that togetherness. Right? Feels like it, yeah.

Ugo Ikokwu: I love that, I love that, that, that togetherness, that. That recognition of. I was going to use the word, individuals. But. No, not, not in the. But. Difference. being able to sit across difference and be comfortable with it. I mean, I remember growing up and because of the. The sort of, my Cultural background, like, you would have people that sit across different political divides, you know, and we would be outside debating and talking. You have people that have different views. And soon as we finish sort of debating and talking, we'll probably all head off, together to go get something to eat.

Servane Mouazan: Oh, yeah.

Ugo Ikokwu: Yes.

Servane Mouazan: Super important.

Ugo Ikokwu: Yeah. Sometimes we talk about growth, we talk about regeneration, we talk about investment as though they are inherently sort of beautiful things. But

Ugo Ikokwu: as I said, beauty for me isn't simply a new building or sort of. Right. It's a rising property value. It's. It's when people who have invested their lives in a place, they get a share in the success. It's when a market trader can still afford to trade in the neighbourhood that they help make vibrant. You know, it's when a young person can see a future for themselves in the community that they grow up. I use myself as an example. You know, cultural spaces like local businesses, community organisations, they're not just surviving change, but they're shaping it. And a lot of my work sits at that intersection of race, wealth and power. and I'm often asking myself a question like, who gets to stay? Because if every improvement to, a sort of a neighbourhood results in people who builds his character being pushed out, then, you know, we've got to ask the question, like, who's this city really been sort of provided for? I don't know if you know, South London, but it's. For me, it's Brixton. Still look. Still feeling like Brixton, you know, coming out of the station and just feeling that air of Brixton and the market going down to south or south or still feeling like south, or communities being able to be involved without being erased. And the most beautiful cities, I think, aren't the ones that constantly replace themselves. They're the ones that find different ways to grow while holding on to, onto the people, the culture and the histories that have made them worth loving in, in the first place. And that. That's kind of where I would love us to get to. Yeah.

Servane Mouazan: Beautiful, beautiful.

Hugo, thank you so much for being in the House of Trust

Well, on these landscape that you've just painting, for us, I'm sure it resonates with many, many people who are listening here. We've reached the end of our show and, I will really think about these storeys that you've just shared. the fabrics, the weaving of the people, their lived experience, their storeys, how they know something about the place you're in. And so everything that moves away from separation, but that makes us more commune together. Yeah, thank you so much, Ugo for being in the House of Trust with us all.

Ugo Ikokwu: No, thank you very much for having me. I've really, really enjoyed that conversation, actually, and I think it would be lovely if we could create more spaces for these types of conversations and more dialogue, actually, to be had. so thank you for creating this space. thank you and it's a pleasure to talk with you and connect with you.

Servane Mouazan: Thank you. Thank you very much. We'll make sure that people know how to reach you and continue the conversations with you because I'm sure they've got, they will have, loads of ideas to share, you people. That's the end of the show. And if you want to listen to the other episodes, head on to servanemouazan.co.uk or look for "Be and Think in the House of Trust" on all your usual podcast platforms. They're there waiting for you to be listened to. And, well, that's it for today. Stay well, take care of each other.