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What if the way you respond to someone’s anxiety could bring hope, comfort, and even healing?

In this compassionate episode of the Collide Podcast, we sit down with counselor Kristi Knipp for a much-needed conversation about how to support the people in our lives who struggle with anxiety. Rooted in Proverbs 12:25—“Anxiety weighs down the heart, but a kind word cheers it up”—Kristi offers both clinical insight and Christlike empathy as she equips us to show up well for loved ones. Whether you’re a parent, friend, spouse, or coworker, this episode provides practical tools and meaningful encouragement to help you engage with care, wisdom, and kindness.

Meet Kristi Knipp

Kristi is a licensed mental health counselor who integrates faith and psychology to support emotional healing. With years of experience in helping people navigate anxiety, trauma, and personal growth, Kristi brings both expertise and deep compassion to her work. Her heart is to equip others to walk with Jesus in their struggles and offer that same hope to those around them.

In This Episode, You’ll Learn

• What Proverbs 12:25 teaches us about anxiety and encouragement
• How to support a loved one with anxiety without fixing or minimizing
• Practical tools for listening well and offering safe, comforting presence
• Why empathy is a powerful act of Christlikeness
• Ways to avoid common missteps when trying to help someone who’s struggling

How This Episode Will Encourage You

If you’ve ever felt unsure of how to help someone who is anxious or overwhelmed, this episode will equip you with the insight and confidence you need. Kristi reminds us that we don’t have to have all the answers—we just need to show up with kindness and compassion.

Check Out These Resources Inspired by This Episode

Birds and Lilies - A Bible study for anxiety that helps counter today’s “anxiety culture” with peace, faith, and trust in God’s provision.

Collide Counseling Bundle - This online course tackles the 12 most common issues women face in counseling, offering practical tools, expert advice, and encouragement from licensed mental health professionals. The course also includes a beautifully designed printed workbook (mailed to your door) filled with exercises, reflection space, and helpful resources to guide your healing journey.

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And they just started to cry. And it was a beautiful reminder for me of the power of just naming that for people, which is a Jesus person.

I shouldn't underestimate the power in that. Like, Jesus is like God with us, right? Like, that's what. That's who our God is.

And yet I think sometimes we don't think that that's good enough for people or. And yet that's so powerful just to say, I see you.

Welcome to the Collide Podcast.

We're a growing community of everyday chicks colliding with Jesus in our mess, our pain, our joy, and our stories.

We value showing up as we truly are, so that's what you'll find here, walls and masks being torn down so that we can allow Jesus to meet us where we truly are and hear about other women doing the same. We can't wait to collide with you.

Welcome to the weekly podcast. I'm Willow Weston, the founder and director of Collide, and today we get to hear from the one and only Kristi Knipp.

Kristi is one of Collide's trusted counselors within our Collide Counseling Network that we hand women to, knowing for sure that with Kristi, they're in safe and helpful hands. I have so much respect for her and the work that she does.

And Kristi is a licensed counselor with her own practice, and she's a mom, a book reader, a gardener, and a captivated follower of Jesus. She's been a therapist for 13 years and specializes in working with teens and children.

She's a mama to four lovely girls and wife to Tim, who's a teaching pastor at Hillcrest Church in Bellingham, Washington. Kristi, thank you so much for hopping on the podcast.

Oh, this is gonna be so fun. I'm so excited.

Yeah, it is gonna be fun.

Hey, I asked you onto this podcast series that we're doing on gleaning wisdom from the Proverbs because I want to have honest, real conversation about a proverb that talks and discusses anxiety. I know you deal with anxiety a lot in your work, and so you have a lot to probably add to the conversation.

Kristi, tell me what you're seeing in regards to anxiety in people's lives. How prevalent is it?

Yeah, unfortunately anxiety is a real issue that people are experiencing and you see it in people of all ages.

And I think for me as someone who works with teenagers and kids in particular, that's the part of it that feels heartbreaking that we, I'm running into teenagers who are crippled with panic attacks and unable to go to school and having trouble in their social relationships and small kids, you know, late elementary age students who are having struggles, but also, you know, grown men and women who are experiencing significant anxiety where it's deeply impacting their life in more than one way. So yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's all over the place.

Yeah.

I want to read some stats I came across from my research and writing the Birds and Lilies Bible study book that we put out this year because I want to ask you a little bit about your thoughts about it. So here's a few of them.

One article I read said surveys of more than 200,000 incoming freshmen to college reported all time lows in overall mental health and emotional stability. And psychologist Robert Leahy believes the average high school kid today has the same level of anx as the average psychiatric patient.

And it began with the rise of social media and women are twice as likely to suffer as men, according to the Anxiety Disorders association of America. This is honestly concerning. It's suggesting that anxiety is an epidemic in our country.

Well, totally. And also if we consider, if we consider a lot of those statistics are based on diagnosable anxiety disorders.

So that doesn't necessarily include the general worry that someone experiences in their life or someone who's having an anxious few months or somebody who is grieving. Like those statistics are based on people who have diagnosable anxiety disorders.

And so I think yes, it's profound, it's significant and I think that there are so many things that are contributing to that. I mean, I do think social media is significant and it does get like a bad rap.

But I also wonder about like, I have seen a significant connection in like hormones and like how hormones are interacting with women's bodies and how that is relating to their anxiety and the pressure that a lot of students feel like at home and in sports and at school and just all that pressure gets internalized and can then manifest itself in experiences of anxiety. And yeah, I mean it's huge.

Yeah. What do you see anxiety doing to people's hearts? Because this proverb suggests it weighs down the heart. How do you see it weighing down the heart?

Heart.

What are the things you're seeing?

I think people who experience significant anxiety also experience a sense of shame and hiddenness.

Because although anxiety is prevalent and people maybe even joke about it like, oh yeah, I'm so anxious right now, or I'm so worried right now I'm a worry word. Like that's even a part of their identity. Like even if we make light of it, I think to say I'm so anxious that I can't go to work feels embarrassing.

Like, feels shaming.

And especially in the Christian community where there's a lot of other chatter about worry and fear and God's control, I think it can be like, I think we, we hide when we experience this. And in that hiddenness there can be a weight that we feel because it feels like it's in, it's in the darkness.

And then I think I see people coping with their anxiety in unhealthy ways.

Like it's easy to kind of check or get on your phone or over clean or over exercise or over manage just like grasping for control in all these other arenas. And that also can get our identities really twisted up. And our families can be impacted by that kind of unhealthy coping strategies.

And yeah, like I mentioned earlier, like I think even just in our physical makeup, like anxiety can be very guttural reality.

And so you know, people having digestion issues and sleep issues and yeah, just impacting our, like our physical health and anxiety are pretty intertwined.

So you specifically focus on kids and teens, right?

Yeah.

What's specifically staggering to you about anxiety in their lives?

When a nine year old person comes to my office who has two loving parents who has experienced no significant trauma and I say that really gently, no experience of traumatic abuse, has had a great time in elementary school, has friends, and yet is still like with all of those things happening in their life and then is still at the point where they are just really having a hard go at life, where anxiety is keeping them from wanting to be engaged in school, keeping them from wanting to sleep over at their friends's house. Like it's like, oh, like I wouldn't necessarily think that.

Like I wouldn't think that someone with a home life that feels, feels safe and balanced and success in multiple areas within someone would still have anxiety. It doesn't like logically add up always. And so to me that's what makes it feel shocking. Like I think it would make to me.

When someone has experienced a trauma and then they have PTSD and they have panic attacks and they have flashbacks, like, okay, yes, like that's trauma related. Like that logically makes sense.

But yeah, when you see a healthy teenager who is doing well in school, who's involved in a sport, who has friends and then they're really struggling and they come in my office and are just weeping because of their experience with anxiety. Like, wow, like that's. Yeah, catches me back off guard.

You can't always logic your way around anxiety.

No.

You can't make sense of it all the time. No, I always say that this is an anxiety, although it creates anxiety. But around my fear. I have some fear in my life.

I don't fly, which is, I wasn't planning on talking about this, but I was in a plane crash years ago and I just don't. It's not my idea of a vacation.

If I needed to go somewhere because I felt like God was saying go here, I probably would, but I don't think God's necessarily saying like go land or a palm tree and drink a pina colada. I'm telling you, do it.

So it just doesn't sound like a fun vacation to me to get on a plane, but it frustrates my children and my husband especially and they try to sort of logic with me about my fear. They try to tell me, you know, I've seen it before. All the stats on, well, you know, more people die in a car, you can do it.

And I try to explain to them, you cannot. You, you trying to logic your way around my emotional state of fear is not going to take my fear away.

So I would imagine trying to solve the mystery of why does a nine year old girl like that have anxiety? No answer is going to make that go away. That's not going to eradicate her anxiety is us trying to find, well, why does she have it right?

We have to meet her in it and engage her in it, which is what we're going to talk about today, what are the damaging ways that you see us often meeting people in their anxiety?

I have so much respect for parents who bring their kids to counseling. I think that choice, I have respect for anyone who chooses to go to counseling.

But I think as a parent to say like I'm at the end of my rope and I don't know what to do and so I'm gonna trust this stranger basically with my, the inner workings of my child. Like that's a significant, that's a big deal.

Oftentimes some of the story is that the parents have tried to manage the anxiety in their children's lives by being overly controlling, overly responsible, overly hovering around it. And they themselves are, you know, experiencing anxiety from their child's anxiety. And it's hard to even discern.

I mean yes, we're here for you, the child, but we're probably also here for the parent.

And so in my work with kids, especially younger age kids, I have the parents in the room with me most of the time because I want the parents to hear how I'm interacting with their child. I want them to feel safe with me and I want the parents to feel more empowered to walk out of my office and engage with their kids anxiety.

But I do, I see parents and other people who care meeting anxiety with like this overbearing, over controlling, over responsible posture which unfortunately can make things worse. Like that added pressure can make things worse.

I also see another kind of, maybe the opposite way is kind of dismissive, like oh, it's not so bad or oh, you shouldn't worry about that or oh, you know, you don't need to, that's not so, you know, what are you nervous about? You're nervous about going to Fred Meyer, like they're friendly there, like that's not that big of a deal.

And kind of interacting with the anxiety in a way that makes people feel dismissed.

And with that can sometimes come that deeper sense of shame, like not feeling known, not feeling understood, not feeling validated in their, in their experience. Still be proud to main things that I see people do.

It's interesting how damaging behaviors usually swing the spectrum. Like you're talking about, you use the word over so much that I wrote it down. I'm like, are you overly.

Like it's a good self request, reflection, question. Like are you overly responsible, overly, you know, engaged, overly hovering, whatever.

Or swing through the other spectrum where you're like it doesn't exist, we're gonna pretend it's not there. How contagious is Anxiety.

Because you kind of hinted at this idea of like our anxiety as parents can make our kids anxiety that's already present worse.

Yes, of course. And it's so natural, right? Like, it's so natural. Like my 5 year old is freaking out in the kitchen, like flailing about her shoe not coming off.

And I don't think I'm gonna very calmly you know, enter in.

Right.

To this space. It's like, no, I think it's a very normal, very human response to. Yeah. Meet anxiety with more anxiety. And to feel that.

Yeah.

To feel that energy.

Yeah. Why do you think we mirror people's emotions? Like when someone's raising their voice, we, we tend to raise ours.

And yet Proverbs, great wisdom suggests we should meet anger with a gentle answer. But it's not usually kind response. Our go to response. But we just get angry back. Or when someone's rushed, we get hurried.

Or someone's in a bad mood, everyone's walking on eggshells and the whole room becomes in a bad mood. What is that that's going on?

It just feels like power to me. It just feels like for better or for worse than I think God intended it for better. Like we are created to be deeply connected to each other.

You know, like that is our created relational design is to impact each other. And I think that was intentional. I think that holds us together as humans.

I mean, I think it holds us together as families and communities and groups of people. But that, that it's powerful. Like that energy, that connectedness like that is powerful. And I think that is why God speaks these wise truths to us.

Because he knows, because he created this way, that how we relate to each other matters because we impact each other. And when you lean in, I want to lean in. When I, like, push back, you know, you want to push back.

I mean, I notice even in simple gestures that I'm making in my counseling office, like when people are crossing their arms, then I kind of want to do that. Or when I relax my body, then they relax their body and just say like, okay, like we, we are impacting each other here.

And I think that's part of how we were created to be. But I think in our brokenness, that can just get really twisted up in our hearts and in our behaviors and how we relate to each other.

So how do we. When we're in a room.

Yes.

Or in a scenario like you described, with your kid flailing on the floor, which I've. There are a million bathtimes and they're not always Five, how do we deflect or. I don't even think that's the right word.

But how do we not take on and wear the other person's emotions without being dismissive?

Like, how do I not mirror the anxiety I'm sensing from someone else where I'm getting anxious without dismissing and just avoiding and walking away and saying, I'm not going to be in your space or your presence or relationship because you're too much.

Exactly. You're acting so crazy. These the two things that came to mind, you know, in regards to this, your question, and they seem so simple.

And I think if people, you know, maybe they would dismiss that.

But breathing and like, praying, even just like short prayers, like, I have the habit of like, pausing and breathing and remembering my body and remembering my space in the room and remembering my breath and like, not holding my breath.

Like, that ability to just take a deep breath, that pause allows me to, like, have a moment to then engage in a way that I feel like is more honoring than just reacting back. I remember when I was a young mom and my daughter was a really challenging baby.

And she's crying and she's crying and she's crying and she's crying and I don't know what to do. And I'm shaking her and I'm jiggling her and I'm like, my, my heart rate is racing and trying to, you.

Know, trying to get her in a safe way. You may be sorry, guys.

And just thinking like, lord, you gotta help me. And I remember listening to some Beth Moore thing, and she's like, one of the things I pray most often is, lord Jesus, have mercy on me.

And I'm like, I could say that.

Like, I can do that.

Like, Lord Jesus, have mercy. Like, Lord Jesus, come, Like, I need you right now, right in this moment.

And I, like, for two years in a row, like, my word of the year was like, patience. And I'm like, I don't want that one.

I'm picking a new one, you know, like, at the beginning of a year, how you could, like, pick a word that's going to be like your word. Two years in patience. Patience is your thing, Kristi. Awesome.

But I would say, like, and I don't mean this in a trite way at all, but I really do believe that Jesus has made me a more patient person. Like, I interact with our fourth girl in a totally different reality than I interacted with our other child who was such a hard baby.

And, and it's, I mean, yes, it's more than Breathing. And it's more than these short prayers. Like, there's so much that goes into learning how to develop habits of entering into someone else's struggle.

But for me, like, just like those two things have still been foundational, like remembering to breathe and say, lord, I need you in this moment. Like, I can't do it without you and you gotta come.

Yeah, it's changed me.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's awesome. I. I feel like I'm, I'm thinking of, what could I pray? What could I pray?

I could pray, Help me to reflect back what I wish was being reflected to me. When that sounds silly, but not whole mirror illustration.

Like if, if I'm seeing like someone who's in a bad mood, it sort of brings me down, but instead just practicing reflecting what I wish I was experiencing. Back when my kids losing their mind, then I tend to like raise my voice. The volume goes up.

This happens in our house all the time where I need to practice reflecting what I wish I, I was experiencing.

My go to response is not usually, you know, if I have a teenager in my house who's acting like a raving lunatic and they're in an adult body, I tend to lose my mind. And my go to response is not.

Like, oh, honey, like I can see. That you're feeling anxious or you've had a hard week and you're exhausted and your frontal lobe still needs to be developed. That's not my go to response. Like, let's have some ice cream. How do we develop go to responses?

I hear, I hear you saying breathe, I hear you saying prayer, but how do we work on those, like our actual voice, verbal and physical bodily responses to people when they're anxious so that it's almost like pulling it out of our back pocket. Like we have it in there and this becomes our new go to response.

Yes. I mean, practicing when we're not in an heightened state is the most helpful thing to do so that that skill is honed in that moment.

And you know, so maybe the person isn't in a state of crisis, but maybe they are. Maybe there is tears.

And then for me to say, okay, in this moment, I want to enter in and see them and not necessarily just wipe the tears away and okay, pick them up and then you're on your way. I want to say, okay, like it seems like you're feeling really sad right now and I'm, I'm so sorry that you got hurt.

When someone is in a really agitated state, sometimes it isn't helpful. It honestly isn't helpful to be like, you are feeling really mad right now.

Yeah, I am. You get punched in the face, right?

I can tell you are feeling really mad right now. But to say, you know, even just to say, like, like, you are really upset. Like, I get it. Like, you are really upset, and this.

This situation doesn't feel fair to you. And I understand. Like, I get that. What can we do? How can I understand? What can we do? What do you need from me?

And there can be emotion there, but I think just to try to move towards somebody in a way that feels genuine and to practice that. Like, to practice it in the grocery store, to practice it with your girlfriend, to practice it. Just to say, I want on. To focus.

Focus on, like, emotional awareness. And I'm like, naming emotions. I want to do that first before I offer anything else.

So what I hear you saying is you're having a really hard day, you know, What I hear you saying is you're feeling really overwhelmed by the amount of things you have to do at work. Wow. And like, starting with that. Starting with that, I think would be. And just to practice. Just to practice.

I know, like, any skill you will get better at.

Sounds so simple. But it's actually often pretty challenging for us because it's not our go to response.

And it's amazing to me to hear you say, practice emotional awareness and naming the emotion, because we skip right over that and we respond with our emotions, to their emotions.

So now we're talking about how we feel as a result of their emotions or how dumb they're acting or how irrational or how they need to pull themselves together.

And we skip the whole compassionate statements of, I can sense that you're feeling this way, or I understand, or I hear you say that you are stressed. We skip that. We jump right over that.

And it's amazing how much power is in that. Just the other day, I was in a situation where a child didn't even want to talk to me, which is fine.

That happens sometimes where kids aren't really eager to talk. And so I just started naming. I just started saying, you know, if I were you, I would feel so alone. You know, I were you, I would feel really scared.

Like, that's not okay. What's been happening? And they just started to cry because I think.

And it was a beautiful reminder for me of the power of just naming that for people, of entering into that space and putting yourself in their shoes and just saying, like, yes, like, this is your lived reality. And I see that. And I don't want to underestimate the power in that, which is a Jesus person. I shouldn't underestimate the power in that.

Like, Jesus is like God with us, right? Like, that's what. That's who our God is. And yet I think sometimes we don't think that that's good enough for people or. And yet that's so powerful.

Just to say, I see you, like.

Wow, we don't think that's good enough for people. That's. That's so interesting. We don't think that's good enough for people because we want to make it go away.

We don't want to sit in it with people and meet people like Jesus met people. We talk about that at Collide all the time. Jesus meets you where you're at. He enters the mess. He walked into the tombs.

He stood there with the woman caught in the act of adultery when everyone else left. Like, he meets you in your stuff, but that's not good enough for us because we don't want to have to deal with it. We want it to go away.

Why are we avoiding people's anxiety? And why do we think that's actually going to do anything?

Yeah, I mean, I think we avoid people's anxiety because it's uncomfortable, it's painful. It is. It's. It's messy. And. And I think we want to feel, like you said, like we're making a difference. And.

And if we don't have a solution, then maybe it feels like we're not making a difference. And so we rush to the solution. And I think. I think compassion, I think Jesus would model for us that the way, you know, because it's. But it is.

It's uncomfortable. And yet I think the way of Jesus is the way that invites us into the suffering, into the struggle to see. Sit. Not to stay in that place, but to still.

To still sit in that place with people and. And see them in that space. And then, yes, of course, invite them into truth. Like, invite them into healing. Invite them into hope. But I.

I don't see Jesus, like, screaming hope and healing from far away. Come over here. Like, I see him, like, going right up next to.

Reaching out, touching, kneeling down, pulling from the tree and saying, like, come on, you know, I see you. Be with me. So. Yeah, but it is. It's uncomfortable.

Yeah, but he's God, Emmanuel. God with us. And we are called to emulate him.

And be with others. Right.

I'm wondering, do you think this proverb saying, like, don't be that guy. Like, don't mirror anxiety with anxiety. Don't match anger with anger. Don't try to cure disappointment with disappointment.

Like, is it almost safe to say that we're supposed to do the opposite of what a person who's anxious is doing?

I think it is least. I think it's at least assuming that there is another way and that that other way is more beneficial. You know that. Yes, like, anxiety is powerful.

Like, anxiety weighs. It's a weight. Like, it weighs our heart down. And the answer to that isn't even to, like, pick the weight off. Exactly. Like, it's not like. And so.

But the invitation is like, the invitation is something new. It's something different. It's like kindness is. It almost feels like it is.

It's an unnatural way to engage with people's hearts when they're with their anxious. And yet I. And yet I see the truth in it. Yeah, it's. It's powerful.

Well, it is interesting because this proverb doesn't tell you what to do to take anxiety away. It doesn't tell you what to do to take the weight off necessarily. But it does almost tell you how to say hello to it, how to enter into it.

What if you had to make a list? What would be like the KristiKnipp Top 5 things not to say to Someone who's Anxious? Don't do this.

Get out a pen and paper, kids.

Here we go. You. You shouldn't say you shouldn't be anxious. Is that making any sense? I, like, don't tell people they shouldn't be anxious. Anxious.

But we do that all the time. Well, you shouldn't feel anxious about that. Like, don't feel anxious about that. Like, there's no reason to do that.

Well, that just makes people feel shamed and embarrassed and invalidated. And I think, like, the shouldn'ts of this world, like, shouldn't just isn't a very helpful thing to say.

You shouldn't be afraid to fly.

Right.

Shouldn't. I'm gonna get on a plane right now because you said that.

Thank you so much. Yeah, so don't say you shouldn't be anxious. I say this next one with a little bit of hesitancy when our first response is, well, God is in control.

Sometimes that can come across to people as really minimizing. Don't feel anxious. God is in control. Well, yeah, of course God is in, you know. Yes, I believe that.

And I'm sure the person that you're talking to, if they're a Jesus following person, they believe that too. But to first meet anxiety with God is in control.

That can sometimes feel really minimizing to somebody and that can help them feel like what they're presenting. Yeah. Is insignificant. Well, okay. Well, then if I truly believe that God is in control, then I wouldn't feel this way. I don't know.

I think it almost heaps on not only anxiety, but then sort of a judgment on the spiritual place that they're in. Almost like you don't have enough faith. So now I feel anxious, and now I feel unfaithful.

Yeah.

So it didn't help me any.

Exactly.

Well, and the reason why I say it was hesitation is because I do think that there's appropriate places to speak truth and hope to people who are experiencing anxiety.

Because I'm not saying we shouldn't do that, but I'm saying when someone meets us with anxiety and our initial response is this big blanket truth that can be hurtful to people and that can make people probably not come to you. I want to share with you anymore. I don't know if I'm going to get to five, but the other one that comes to mind is just to say, stop.

And this I hear probably more from parents than I hear from adult to adult. But sometimes I hear parents saying to their kids, like, stop. Stop being anxious.

You know, they kind of say it in that voice that we get as parents, you know, stop.

Oh, I think I might do that.

I mean, one, because I think, think stop assumes that. That there's a. That there's a lot of choosing power in that moment. And. And I think there.

There is, like there is choosing power that gets us to this place sometimes of feeling anxious. But I often think most people I see in my office wouldn't, like, choose to be there as much as they like me.

It's not like they would think, oh, I'm really glad that I have depression. I would totally choose this. And so to say stop, like, assumes. Well, well, of course I want to stop, you know, and. And I think it can just.

It can feel invalidating. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that came to mind, though, is the whole idea of, oh, maybe I did get to 5.

Look at me like, to say something really like, oh, but don't be anxious because, you know, there are so many problems in the this world that are bigger than the thing that you're worried about and kind of that comparison or, you know, you shouldn't be worried about the results of that test because, well, so and so just discovered that she has cancer.

You know, these stories, these are nightmare responses.

And that Kind of comparison just isn't. Isn't super helpful. And then the last one that came to mind is. And again, I think it's more solution focused.

And yes and yes and yes to all those lovely things, because those are great coping strategies for people who are struggling with anxiety. But again, I think it's like rushing to the solution before people are feeling really seen. And that can make people kind of shrink back from us. And.

Yeah.

What are your top five? Do say these things in response to someone who's anxious? Top five. Kristi Nips.

Oh, my goodness. I would say, wow, that's a lot. Like, you are carrying a lot right now. That would be like one of my things. I would say. I would.

I would say when you're a high school student and you are having those experiences with your friends over social media, it makes sense why you're having trouble sleeping. I'm so sorry that this is what life is like for you right now. I think I would.

Yeah, I would try to just to name what I'm seeing and to offer empathy, to offer us, like, to offer compassionate generosity, to offer kindness, to say, your anxiety doesn't scare me. You're not alone in it. I believe that God sees you in your anxiety. I see you and I believe he sees you too.

So, yeah, that would be some things I would say.

You know, this proverb suggests meeting anxiety with kindness. And that sounds so simple. But why is kindness so powerful?

I think it's powerful because it assumes a pause. Like kindness assumes time. Like, it assumes thoughtfulness. It assumes being present. You can't.

It's hard to be kind to someone in a hurry when you're in a hurry. It's hard to be kind to someone when you're distracted.

And so to be kind to someone means that you are deliberately, intentionally engaging with them and showing, like, movement towards them in a way that is generous and hospitable and compassionate and. And loving.

It feels like kindness has gone extinct, kind of like with the dinosaurs. Like, I think I told you this, but Kolides getting sweatshirts rolling out in the fall that are adorable. And they say, be kind.

And I already bought mine because, oh.

I want one, too.

I love this simple reminder. Like, but it really feels like kindness is almost like this lost.

Yes.

Value.

Yes. Yeah. And I'm not a sociologist. And so I don't know a ton about this, but I do wonder if, like, in some places, kindness got replaced with being nice.

And then now in our culture, we're not super into, you know, like, don't be a nice girl. You know, like, our culture is kind of against the word nice, which I appreciate that. Like, I don't really love the word nice either.

Right. But then we associate being nice with being fake.

Right. Why, yes.

We can't be genuinely nice. Right.

It's true. Being fake, being superficial. Yeah. I have no idea. And so it's like we've. We're trying to get rid of nice. We've thrown kindness out too. Yeah.

I don't know. I don't know. But I. I do. I have intentionally. Tim and I are. My husband, and I have intentionally.

Some of the things we intentionally say to our girls are be brave and be kind, among so many others. But I love that idea, like, be respectful, be brave, be kind. And because I do, that's what I want for them.

I want them to be women who grow up who are shaped and communicate kindness.

Can I list off a few different emotions and have you tell me just off the top of your head, kindness displayed to this emotion? So, sure. Someone who's angry.

Am I gonna. Am I gonna validate their emotion or do some kind of behavior response? Like, what are you looking for?

Yeah, just. I think if you encounter someone who's angry, what's a kind response you could have in a moment?

Mm. I mean, I would say, like, wow, you're really angry right now. Tell me about that. When my girls are really angry, I do.

I invite them to breathe, even if they'll get mad at me back. There's some sense of injustice that's happened.

And so I think some of the ways that we can kind of help the anger dissipate or at least is just to say, like, you're really angry. Tell me about that. What feels unfair to you when you're angry?

What about someone who so evidently walks in a room and has their walls up?

Yeah.

What's a kind response when they're basically saying with their entire body and mood, no one can get in here?

Totally. I even wonder if basic eye contact and a smile, and even just to say, like, to come up next to them and just say, hi, like, I see you.

To make a joke sometimes that can kind of soften people who are really.

Feeling, like, about the Great Wall of China.

Exactly.

It's so funny that you're suggesting smiling to that scenario. Because I'm putting myself in that scenario. And it is extremely hard. Back to the mirror thing. It is so hard to smile.

Smile at someone who's looking at you with the opposite of a smile.

Right.

Like, they're just so mad. I'm not letting anyone in. And you just smile at them. It really does take this intentionality about your response.

No, I think so. And sometimes one of my.

When you're asking these questions, the way that it's easiest for me to find an answer is to think how would I relate to a child who's acting that way and not. You know, children and adults are different and we engage with them differently.

But I do think it would be more natural for a child who's a stranger to me if they come into my home and they are really closed off for me to say hi and like, have a really warm and welcoming smile. It's a lot harder to do that with an adult.

It feels more vulnerable.

Yeah.

Like you're gonna get rejected. What about someone who's grieving? A kind response.

I. To not force it, but to come alongside someone who is grieving and.

And not make it about you, but genuinely, like, I mean, some of it's just how I'm wired. Right. But to cry. And again, like, not like you're weeping and not like you can't manufacture tears. Right. But. But to. To imagine their grief.

To imagine, like, what they've been through, and to come up next to them and just weep with them or put your arm around them if they. If that's something that's appropriate, and just say, like, I see you. Like I feel with you. You know, what you're experiencing.

You are not alone in this space. I think that that can be really powerful. But, I mean, we can't manufacture our tears. Right.

But I don't want to underestimate the power of what it is to, like, weep with somebody who is weeping. I'm also a sucker for flowers. And so I also think those are helpful, you know, to remind them of, like, just physical beauty.

Well, and this one is. I mean, it's real. But what about a kind response to someone? It. In the midst of an anxiety attack.

Yeah, when someone is in the midst of an anxiety attack, if it's a true panic attack, one of the most helpful things we can do is help them to re. Engage with their bodies, to help have them. I mean, if you just want to be really nuts and bolts here, to have them sit down, lay down, take a few.

If they're willing to like take a few deep breaths in through their nose, out through their mouth to help them say, okay, can you feel your feet on the floor? Can you feel your hips in your chair? Can you feel your shoulders soften? Okay, take a few more deep breaths with me here. Have a drink of cold water.

Have a mint or a Jolly Rancher. Like, let's just. Let's get you re engaged back with your body.

Because when people are in that kind of heightened state of panic, the best thing we can do for them is help them re engage with their physical body and then. And then have a processing conversation. Like, wow, like, you know, your body was felt. Did that feel really out of control to you?

Like, it looked out of control to me. You know, how. How are you doing? You know, do you want to tell me a little bit about what happened? Is this something that's normal for you?

Is there anybody you want me to call? You know, I mean, again, just entering into that moment. So.

Speaking of entering into that moment, I think you have a beautiful Henri Nouwen quote. Do you want to read it?

Yeah, sure. I would love to. I would love to. This is what he says. Let us not underestimate how hard it is to be compassionate.

Compassion is hard because it requires the inner disposition to go with others to the place where they are weak, vulnerable, lonely and broken. But this is not our spontaneous response to suffering.

What we desire most is to do away with suffering by fleeing from it or finding a quick cure for it. But as busy, active, relevant people, we want to earn our bread by making a real contribution.

This means, first and foremost, doing something to show that our presence makes a difference. And so we ignore our greatest gift, which is our ability to enter into solidarity with those who suffer. And I do think this is true.

I think this is so true and profound. Like our greatest gift that we can offer, our greatest act of kindness is awe, is the ability to enter into solidarity with those who suffer. Yeah.

And I think to not underestimate the power of that.

Well, and it's when we're most Christlike, is when we're able to enter in and meet people where they're at.

And I think, at least in my experience, experience, it's in those places that I've experienced God's power and presence most of my life is when I'm able to engage people in the mess, not in the fun and not in the, you know, playful like. But it's like being able to not avoid the pain, but enter into it.

Which is really hard to do.

But that's also when other people have been able to do that for me, where I have sensed God's healing begin in my life.

Yeah.

What does kindness to anxiety look like for the long haul?

Like, when I read this proverb, I, you know, was thinking I can do this for like the, you know, I don't know, easily annoyed checker at the grocery store or the. But what about, what about the person in my orbit who's always stressed out, always anxious, always complaining about their life? Always.

There's always this. And I can go to this kind of posture of like rolling my eyes like this again.

This chick's going on and on about everything that's stressful, negative and not good and awful. How do I meet a person like that with kindness again and again and again and really actually feel that in my heart?

So we're not going back to that fake nice thing, but actually, like, how do I do kindness for the long haul with people who have anxiety for what feels like the long haul?

Yeah, with Jesus.

Help. Help me, Jesus.

I mean, in those moments, especially in those moments where I am almost feeling frustrated and not.

Because when we walk with somebody for a long time and it really feels like they're stuck, to me, that's a different experience than walking with someone who's experiencing anxiety and you see them like taking responsibility and movement and really seeking healing.

And so when I come across somebody who genuinely just feels stuck and maybe unwilling to enter in, what I found is most helpful for me is to say, wow, like I care about you. It, it feels like you're struggling. And honestly, it feels, it feels like you are kind of trapped in this place. Is that what this is like for you?

Like, do you feel like you are constantly coming up against extreme stress or extreme worry or life impacting anxiety? Like, this is just me kind of mirroring back to you what I'm seeing. Is this true?

And hopefully, ideally the person would be self aware enough to say, yeah, you're right. And then I would follow it up. Is it working for you? Like, is this, is this what you're wanting?

Because I think, I do really believe that, that there could be another way and not that there's not. Like there's a quick fix. But I really do think there might be another way.

I don't, I, I would want to believe in a God who would offer more than this for you and just to see.

Right. And maybe part of relationship with someone that feels stuck is engaging conversations together in kind ways around.

What are some of the other ways you can take a step to move.

Because I'm thinking as you're talking, I'm thinking about the collision in the New Testament where Jesus shows up to the man who, you know, is laying there begging, and he's.

He's been waiting to get to the waters that he's been told, like, there's a superstitious belief that the waters are going to heal him, but he can't walk to get down to the waters. And so Jesus is standing in his presence, and the guy starts complaining about how he can't get down the water.

He's literally complaining to the God who can do anything, the God standing there. But he's not asking Jesus to help him. He's not asking for Jesus power or help.

He's just complaining about how things haven't worked out to help him get what he wants.

Well, and honestly, Willow, that. That pool that that man was sitting by, it was deep. Like, Tim and I have been to Israel a few times and seen that pool.

I love.

It's one of my favorite places. That pool was like 15, 20ft deep. Like, he knew he didn't believe and he was going to jump in that pool.

He was going to drown.

Yes. Huh.

Wow. I've never. I didn't know that.

Yes.

What's striking about Jesus in that moment is he asks him, do you want to get well?

Right?

And I did some research about that word. Well, and it's this word I believe, it's the low in Greek. And it's really like, it's more than wanting something, it's actually being willing to.

Do the work to get it right.

And Jesus is asking him, do you want to get well? Which is the most piercing question that any of us can ask ourselves on any given Wednesday.

But especially in places where there seems to be a theme showing up, that we're stuck in some way and we all get stuck. This isn't. Everyone's stuck but me. Like, I'm stuck in places. I'm sure you're stuck in places. Let me tell you how you're stuck. No, I'm just saying.

But like, we're all stuck, but Jesus asking us, do you want to get well? And are you willing to move? And sometimes I do feel like. And maybe it's because I have, you know, I have a lot of weaknesses.

One of my gifts is the gift of exhortation, which is basically the gift of spiritual butt kicking. Or I can just, like. I feel like I can just speak truth and have that sort of discernment on what's going on.

So I can get easily annoyed if I feel like, dude, just move. Like, stop complaining. You know, that's what I want to say. But I need to learn to, I need to learn from you.

And I'm gonna activate all these new tools you've taught me today.

But I bring that up because you are talking about someone who is stuck and we can see their stuff, but how do we meet them in that place where they're complaining and going on and on about their anxiety.

But it's like every time you see them and it's so hard to have that conversation, but to really do it not in this sort of unfiltered spiritual butt kicking way, but really to come alongside them and if they can recognize that they're stuck, to maybe be a person, to suggest, like, what are some things you can do to move from this place to another place totally. Instead of just waiting for something to, you know, come out of thin air that's going to make things better. What are some things you can do?

Because I think people spend a lot of time sort of in that learned helplessness, like all the things I can't do. And I want to spend some time talking about all the things you can do.

I just had a bunch of 8th grade girls over at my, at our house for the last day of school and one of the girls has a terrible injury. So she couldn't do most everything that the girls were doing, swimming and all this stuff. And she was bummed.

And we sat down and talked about it in the midst of her, her sadness about it. And I said, let's talk about all the things you can do. What can you do? And we started having fun, literally just making the list.

Like we were like, we can tell jokes, we can still sing song. Like we're making this really silly list together. And all of a sudden, like her mood came out of that.

And so part of helping people will get unstuck is maybe having conversations of like, you can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this. You feel paralyzed by this, you're stressed out by this, but what can you do?

Oh, totally.

Well, and I think when people feel genuinely seen, you know, for you to say, like, I can tell that you're upset because you can't engage with what your other friends are doing. Like, she probably, I'm sure she felt so seen in that moment.

And then it's like the walls, like the tension relaxes, releases, and so then there's an openness right to some of those, to the new way of viewing, like, the new perspective, like, and then thinking through the action steps. Because I, I'm not against action steps. Like, I'm not against coping strategies. I'm not against calming techniques.

Like, that's so much of what my work is, is teaching people new habits to help their mental health.

But I think people's openness to those steps, like, comes with that sense of being, of being known and thinking again about people who, in our lives who feel stuck. I mean, honestly, some of the other questions that I ask people are like, for what are you eating? How much caffeine? Are you drinking?

Do you get enough sleep? Have you been to the doctor lately? Like, have you had your thyroid checked? Like, would you consider maybe going to a naturopath? Do you exercise?

Because there are just some practical, healthy things we can ask people after they felt seen and validated to just wonder with them. Like, there probably might be.

Yeah, some things. This proverb says anxiety weighs down the heart, but a kind word cheers it up.

What do you think about the idea of being kind to yourself and your own anxiety?

I think it's challenging in our culture. I think it can be challenging as women to do that.

I think in my own life with my four girls and working and trying to be a friend and read books and garden, like, there just feels like the list of things to do is endless. And so for me to pause and take a minute to engage with myself, to see myself, to engage with the God who sees me, I mean, it's.

That requires more discipline than I would like to admit, you know, but to be kind to myself means seeing myself like, means journaling means walking and breathing means, means praying means doing things that I know maybe isn't necessarily getting all the laundry done. Although for me that is quite satisfying. But you know, it's doing those other things that are, that are actually a kindness to myself. Yeah.

I remember a friend years ago saying that she was kind of practicing this mantra in her life where she was trying for a year to be a friend to herself.

Yeah.

And I, I thought that was really interesting. If you think about all the names we call ourselves that we'd never call anyone else. You know, you're, you're such a loser. You're so fat. You're.

You're always blowing it. You can't seem to get it. You're not enough. We're like constantly calling ourselves all of these, these statements.

Let's talk about the power of our negative self messages.

Yes.

What are you seeing us do? And how can we replace those sort of negative names? We're calling ourselves those I ams. I'm a failure. I'm a mess.

How can we replace those with kind I ams?

Yeah, I think one of the first things that we have to do is we have to notice that we're saying that to ourselves. Because sometimes I think that negative tape just like, runs in the background and we don't even realize it. It's just that automatic response.

And so then to notice that that's happening and to notice that it's obviously impacting us, and then. And then to make. To make a switch, to make a switch in our brain that says, like, that's not true. What is true?

And I would say that making that switch is like. Is building a muscle. Like, it's muscle memory in our brain. Like, making that switch takes practice.

And I would say that making that switch for most of us takes the help of other people and takes that and takes the help of the Holy Spirit, like Jesus.

I need you to come and enter into my thoughts and help me get unhooked from this lie that I've just been mulling or mulling and mulling and mulling and molling around in our brain. My brain.

Um, it's also taken, at least for me, it's taken the help of God's Word.

Yes.

Like, yes, for me, going from I'd never read the Bible in my entire life until I was 21 years old to all of a sudden discovering I am fearfully and wonderfully made. I am a child of God, I am purposed, I am chosen. All of the deep, rich truths in scripture, I.

I literally have to clean them when I'm in a place where I've lost sight of who I am, you know?

Yes. And I would say that for.

For a lot of us sometimes making that switch just from I'm a loser to like, I am a beloved daughter of God, that feels unattainable to make that switch. And so oftentimes when people are in that space where that gap feels too wide, it doesn't feel believable. Then I.

And I.

And as much as people are open to it, I try to bring. Got into my work that I do with people.

But I would say, okay, maybe you don't believe that you're beloved, but can you believe that that's how God sees you? Could you say, God sees me as beloved? God sees me as beautiful. God sees me as beautifully.

Maybe I can't own it yet for myself, but can I at least reach for that truth, that that's who God says that I am and I. And that sometimes feels more attainable to people. Like, okay, what's a truth that feels obtained, attainable to you in this moment?

That's good. When you see Jesus collide, with people in the New Testament, how do you see him meet them? In their anxiety, in kindness?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

I don't know that Zacchaeus was anxious, but when this wonder came to mind, that's who I first pictured was Zacchaeus up in this tree, you know, longing to see Jesus but feeling rejected by his community because of all of the rude ways he had interacted with them and stolen their money and la. And, you know, I see him climbing that tree, desperate, but still unhooked from community.

And, and I just imagine like Jesus coming through town and, and going to him, like, seeing him like this ridiculous man who no one was interested in engaging with, probably relationally and saying, zacchaeus, like, I want to spend time with you, like, let me come to your house. And the power of that Jesus coming to him and engaging with him.

I mean, yeah, the Bible doesn't tell us that Zacchaeus was anxious, but he was hiding in a tree, you know, and to me, people who are experiencing anxiety, there's, yeah, there's a hiddenness, there's withdrawness from community, there's a disassociation with, you know, what everyone else is doing because you're crippled and alone. And I see Jesus, like running straight for that, you know, and saying, I want to be where you are, in your space. And it changes his life.

I'm coming to your house.

Exactly.

Which is the opposite of what we tend to do. We don't want to show up at people's houses who are in the midst of anxiety.

Yes.

I find it interesting that this proverb doesn't lay out a 10 step program or 1, 2, 3 step on how to meet anxiety and change it. It very simply suggests our role in the face of anxiety. Always meet it with kindness. What encourages you about that? Simplicity.

I was saying to Tim the other day, like, the profound truth that we tell our kids, to me, it only works if they can understand, understand it, because it's simple.

And to me, like, yes, we are adults and we understand complex thoughts and yet there's such, like, God does create us with, with a desire for things that are simple, things that are attainable, things that are like, we can say it succinctly. And so I just, I do, I love the power in saying like, yes, saying the reality anxiety weighs us down.

Like, the Bible doesn't ignore the fact that fear is real. You know, that anxiety has weight to it. And yet it also recognizes, like, there is power in meeting people differently in that space.

And kindness, like, generous, compassionate presence in that makes a difference. Like, legitimately changes people. And I love that. Like, I love that that's how God made us to be. I.

I love that that's who he invites us to be with one another. Like, I like. I just. I love that. I love it, too.

Thank you for your wisdom. I love your wisdom and I'm so glad that you came on to the podcast to share it with all of us.

For those of you listening, thank you for hanging out and our encouragement to you today is to be kind to all those that you collide with and be kind to yourself. You have a God who is more than kind and he is coming to your house today and entering into all the rooms that you allow him to.

He wants to love you and stitch you up in the places that need mending and remind you how important you are and how worthy you are. So have a good week.

And if you want, you can check out out the Bible studies that I mentioned on our website @ wecollide.net you can check out our resources and find out more information about what Collide has going on, and we'll catch you next week.