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FE4.10 - Geopoetics
Episode 1025th February 2023 • Future Ecologies • Future Ecologies
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We need geopoetics because geopolitics necessitate other ways of being… Proposing alternate narratives to the hegemonic ones we are caught in is the work and play of geopoetics.

– Erin Robinsong, Geopoetics in the Mess/Mesh

Enclosed is the last episode of our 4th season: a sympoietic stream of consciousness; on language, art making, and more-than-human interconnection.

Find a transcript, full credits, and citations here

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Support our 5th season: Join our community on Patreon

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The feet are the link
Between earth and the body. Begin there.
The lungs are the link between body and air.
The hands, these uprooted feet, are the means
Of our shaping and grasping. Clasp them.
The eyes are the hands of the head;
its feet are the ears.

– Robert Bringhurst

– – –

With the voices and words of Michael Datura, Astrida Neimanis, Cosmo Sheldrake, Rex Weyler, Robert Bringhurst, Jan Zwicky, David Abram, Megan Gnanasihamany, Stephen Collis, Eric Magrane, Hari Alluri, Nadia Chaney, Kaitlyn Purcell, Khari McClelland, Rita Wong, Jessica Bebenek, Vicki Kelly, Mark Fettes, Marjorie Wonham, and Cecily Nicholson

Music by Cosmo Sheldrake, Anne Bourne, Meredith Buck (as arranged by Vanessa Richards), Jonathan Kawchuk, the Time Zone Research Lab, Emily Millard, Khari McClelland, Ruby Singh, and Nathan Shubert, with field recordings by Julian Fisher.

Transcripts

Chorus:

Begin there —

Introduction Voiceover:

You are listening to Season Four

Chorus:

Begin there —

Introduction Voiceover:

of Future Ecologies.

Mendel Skulski:

Welcome back. Mendel here. And before we get

Mendel Skulski:

started, I just wanted to say thanks for your patience. It's

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been quite a year, and it means a lot to have you with us. This

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is the last episode of our fourth season. So it's time that

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we listen to you, for a change. We'd love to get to know you

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better, and find out what you'd like to hear in Season Five.

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We've already got a number of stories in progress, but your

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input will help shape how we tell them. So please fill out

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our brief listener survey. We'd love to hear from you. Find a

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link to that survey in the show notes, or click the banner at

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After this episode, our feed will mostly go quiet again for a

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the drill. Tell a friend, tell a stranger and please say nice

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things about us wherever you find podcasts.

Mendel Skulski:

Okay, now on to this episode. What you're about to hear comes

Mendel Skulski:

from a gathering on Klahoose, Tla’amin, and Homalco territory,

Mendel Skulski:

specifically Cortes island, in the spring of 2022. It was a

Mendel Skulski:

symposium of artists and scholars of all description,

Mendel Skulski:

assembled to reflect on, discuss, and share their

Mendel Skulski:

practice. Namely, that at an intersection referred to as

Mendel Skulski:

Geopoetics.

Mendel Skulski:

The word poem comes to us from the Greek "poiein", meaning to

Mendel Skulski:

make or create, and which would also be borrowed into the word

Mendel Skulski:

sympoiesis. Quoting from Donna Haraway, "Sympoiesis is a simple

Mendel Skulski:

word. It means making with. Nothing really makes itself.

Mendel Skulski:

Nothing is really autopoietic, or self organizing" end quote.

Mendel Skulski:

In that spirit, what follows is not a perfectly condensed

Mendel Skulski:

version of those events, nor is it attempting to be. Instead,

Mendel Skulski:

these many voices have been recontextualized and collaged

Mendel Skulski:

from where I sit — here as an uninvited guest on the unceded

Mendel Skulski:

and shared ancestral territory of the Musqueam, Squamish, and

Mendel Skulski:

Tsleil-waututh peoples — into a stream of consciousness on

Mendel Skulski:

language artmaking and more than human interconnection.

Mendel Skulski:

The sound isn't perfect, and sometimes you can hear a baby in

Mendel Skulski:

the room. But hey, that's life.

Mendel Skulski:

Here we go.

Michael Datura:

In the field of environmental education,

Michael Datura:

anthropomorphism — the charge of anthropomorphism is sort of a

Michael Datura:

dirty word. It's considered a logical fallacy. So that it's a

Michael Datura:

formal critique so that even the content of whatever comes is

Michael Datura:

sort of rendered false. If so, what if you just talk about your

Michael Datura:

experience with that, and anthropomorphizing the ocean,

Michael Datura:

but also ecologizing the body, and how you contend with that?

Astrida Neimanis:

Yeah that's a great question. And it's a funny

Astrida Neimanis:

talking to a room of a lot of poets and artists, as though

Astrida Neimanis:

qualities like this could not be transferred across species, but

Astrida Neimanis:

I think that my short answer to that leveling of that charge of

Astrida Neimanis:

anthropomorphism is always like, why do we think humans felt

Astrida Neimanis:

those things first, or had those things first? We learn our

Astrida Neimanis:

feelings, I think, from the world around us, we learn

Astrida Neimanis:

sensation, we learn inter-relationality, we learn

Astrida Neimanis:

communication, we learn language, from all of these

Astrida Neimanis:

things. So then to say, you know, to hold all of that stuff

Astrida Neimanis:

close to us and say, "No, this belongs to humans. And it's

Astrida Neimanis:

ethically wrong to consider that another kind of being would be

Astrida Neimanis:

tired or be angry or be upset or need a hug" is I think, even

Astrida Neimanis:

more anthropocentric in a way — because it like it hogs... it

Astrida Neimanis:

hogs all of those great words and feelings and sensations as

Astrida Neimanis:

though they just belong here. You know, where did we get them

Astrida Neimanis:

from?

Cosmo Sheldrake:

Something to me that I find really helpful

Cosmo Sheldrake:

recently, particularly been thinking a lot about, because

Cosmo Sheldrake:

I've been working with birdsong for a while. And something that

Cosmo Sheldrake:

recording gives you access to — that just listening without

Cosmo Sheldrake:

recording can't — is your ability to slow things down and

Cosmo Sheldrake:

speed things up. There's this artists, Marcus Coates in the

Cosmo Sheldrake:

UK, who did this project called Dawn Chorus, where he, he slowed

Cosmo Sheldrake:

down birdsong, specific birds, by 20 times and got different

Cosmo Sheldrake:

people to learn the song 20 times slower, and then filmed

Cosmo Sheldrake:

them singing it 20 times, and then sped them up 20 times —

Cosmo Sheldrake:

their breath, their head movements, they become bird in

Cosmo Sheldrake:

this really uncanny way. And it just makes this really strong

Cosmo Sheldrake:

point about this time, this kind of temporal barrier between us

Cosmo Sheldrake:

and some other living organisms that exist on a different

Cosmo Sheldrake:

timeframe. And once you can slow down or speed things up, you can

Cosmo Sheldrake:

somewhat close that gap, and kind of meet in this weird,

Cosmo Sheldrake:

uncanny way.

Rex Weyler:

It's not so much a statement as a question — what

Rex Weyler:

is the language of ecology? And there's an issue here with the

Rex Weyler:

word "environment" versus "ecology". People think of the

Rex Weyler:

environment is something that's out there, and we're gonna fix

Rex Weyler:

it or we need it or something like that. Ecology is something

Rex Weyler:

we're inside of. So part of what I've experienced in the ecology

Rex Weyler:

movement over 50 years, is that we just continually get hung up

Rex Weyler:

on language. And that I've kind of felt like I've been searching

Rex Weyler:

my whole life for a language that actually speaks ecology,

Rex Weyler:

and speaks of this undivided whole of which everything is a

Rex Weyler:

part.

Rex Weyler:

All divisions are arbitrary. We cut up the world to describe it.

Rex Weyler:

And someone might say, "Well, we know the difference between a

Rex Weyler:

rocket tree we know the difference between a tree in the

Rex Weyler:

atmosphere." Do we? We talk about a tree, the soil, and the

Rex Weyler:

atmosphere, but none of those three things (tree, soil, or

Rex Weyler:

atmosphere — or fungi) exist independently in the others. So

Rex Weyler:

when we speak of them, were approximating. Language is

Rex Weyler:

necessary… or useful, let's say. Language is useful so that we

Rex Weyler:

can just talk to each other. And we can talk to each other about

Rex Weyler:

the tree and the soil and the atmosphere, when we know that

Rex Weyler:

none of those things exist independently.

Robert Bringhurst:

The real subject here is really how the

Robert Bringhurst:

Earth means. I just take for granted that the Earth means. It

Robert Bringhurst:

is so obvious to me that it has never occurred to me that it

Robert Bringhurst:

needed explaining. But I hear a lot of people say that they are

Robert Bringhurst:

engaged in making meaning, as if there weren't any until they

Robert Bringhurst:

made some. I just don't get it.

Robert Bringhurst:

The ground we walked on to get here, the stones that got stuck

Robert Bringhurst:

in the soles of my shoes, and the other ones that are big

Robert Bringhurst:

enough to stay in their places, and the trees, and all the

Robert Bringhurst:

little plants underneath the trees, and all the little things

Robert Bringhurst:

way up in the trees — they are all meaning incarnate. This

Robert Bringhurst:

building is not meaningless either, but it ain't much

Robert Bringhurst:

compared to what's out there. And we are meaning incarnate

Robert Bringhurst:

too.

Jan Zwicky:

You and the world are real together. You're built

Jan Zwicky:

so that you can understand one another.

David Abram:

To our animal flesh, to our creaturely senses,

David Abram:

each thing I encounter is always withholding parts of itself

David Abram:

within itself. And it also is hiding other things behind

David Abram:

itself.

Megan Gnanasihamany:

Their features refuse to cohere into

Megan Gnanasihamany:

recognizable form.

David Abram:

Nothing is ever encountered, all explicit, open,

David Abram:

total. For me, that's not a source of frustration, it's a

David Abram:

source of delight. It's just the signal that I —

Stephen Collis:

Anima, animal, animate

David Abram:

— in my own animal body, am inside something much

David Abram:

bigger than me, in which things dance and play with one another,

David Abram:

and beckon to me and others withdraw from my attention

David Abram:

entirely and hide off.

Jan Zwicky:

Explicit — what that word means is unfolded,

Jan Zwicky:

everything has been unfolded. Well, often what that means is

Jan Zwicky:

to dissect something, or to flay it, to peel it, to expose it. A

Jan Zwicky:

great deal of biological life must remain implicit, or it's

Jan Zwicky:

dead.

David Abram:

And of course, a way to gain the bare beginnings

David Abram:

of an access to the interior of something (without flaying it),

David Abram:

is to ask and to enter into conversation.

Jan Zwicky:

Make eye contact

Vanessa Richards and Chorus:

Listen. Let your water be your guide.

Vanessa Richards and Chorus:

Let the water decide. Lose yourself in the meantime.

Vanessa Richards and Chorus:

Listen.

Eric Magrane:

How the world is organized is a function of

Eric Magrane:

belief. For example, here are just a few ways that climate

Eric Magrane:

change is understood or portrayed. As an apocalyptic

Eric Magrane:

threat to humanity, as a national security issue, as an

Eric Magrane:

engineering problem, as a social and environmental justice issue,

Eric Magrane:

as a hoax, as a business opportunity, as a crisis of

Eric Magrane:

capitalism, patriarchy, settler colonialism, racism and or

Eric Magrane:

neoliberalism, or as an opportunity for radical

Eric Magrane:

transformation.

Eric Magrane:

How climate change is framed then has reverberations for how

Eric Magrane:

it is approached or addressed or ignored. These framings also

Eric Magrane:

often map onto deeper ideologies about human-environment

Eric Magrane:

relationship, expressed through social, political, economic and

Eric Magrane:

land systems. When I think about the climate crisis from a

Eric Magrane:

geopolitical standpoint, climate change is about time and

Eric Magrane:

materiality. Time — the scales of time in which we must think

Eric Magrane:

to understand climate. Materiality — minerals, fossils,

Eric Magrane:

plastic bags, the decayed remains of marine life powering

Eric Magrane:

our machines. In short, organizations of matter.

Astrida Neimanis:

Scale asks us to measure phenomena in terms of

Astrida Neimanis:

close or far, small or big, more significant or less. And we

Astrida Neimanis:

readily think of scale in terms of things like time or duration,

Astrida Neimanis:

minutes, years, eons. Or in terms of size or space — micro,

Astrida Neimanis:

macro, local, global. It follows that a scale of mattering might

Astrida Neimanis:

map onto these other scales according to things like

Astrida Neimanis:

intensity and heft, or sheer numbers. "We need to scale our

Astrida Neimanis:

actions up", we say. "Just a drop in the ocean" is a figure

Astrida Neimanis:

of speech for a reason, after all. But despite our desire for

Astrida Neimanis:

scale to temper the crass leveling effect of analogy, we

Astrida Neimanis:

also recognize another kind of brutality creeping into these

Astrida Neimanis:

scalar logics. Where Euclidean geometries assemble, to measure

Astrida Neimanis:

and mark and value, and with these metrics comes fungibility

Astrida Neimanis:

of each constituent part.

Astrida Neimanis:

This is what anthropologist Anna Tsing might call the malevolent

Astrida Neimanis:

hegemony of precision nesting — an expansionist logic whereby

Astrida Neimanis:

scaling up means that any precisely measurable elements

Astrida Neimanis:

can be multiplied without consequence. So here, instead of

Astrida Neimanis:

the violence of analogy or equivalence, we face the

Astrida Neimanis:

violence of quantification and reduction and exchangeability.

Astrida Neimanis:

And neither gives us the tools we need for the kind of scaling

Astrida Neimanis:

up that we seek.

Robert Bringhurst:

Many things in the world are a matter of

Robert Bringhurst:

scale. Sandhill Cranes are creatures whose song is within

Robert Bringhurst:

our hearing range, and whose bodies are large enough, and

Robert Bringhurst:

whose gestures are large enough that we can see them. And so if

Robert Bringhurst:

you are lucky enough to hear the Sandhill Cranes and watch them

Robert Bringhurst:

dance, you will be changed forever by this experience. But

Robert Bringhurst:

another thing that ought to happen is that it ought to occur

Robert Bringhurst:

to you that just because you can see the Sandhill Cranes dance

Robert Bringhurst:

doesn't mean that nothing else dances. What about the bacteria?

Robert Bringhurst:

What about the deer mites? What about the lichens? What about

Robert Bringhurst:

the other things that are outside your range somehow — the

Robert Bringhurst:

things whose voices are too high or too low in pitch for your

Robert Bringhurst:

ears; the things that are too small or too large for you to

Robert Bringhurst:

see. The Earth, for example.

Hari Alluri:

I mean, we dance inside ourselves. Even when

Hari Alluri:

we're still.

Megan Gnanasihamany:

Nature and its description into image —

Megan Gnanasihamany:

whether photo, drawing, or painting en plein air — has long

Megan Gnanasihamany:

been conscripted into the propagation of a historical myth

Megan Gnanasihamany:

— The untouched and glorious Earth, primed and waiting for

Megan Gnanasihamany:

your eyes, and yours alone, to appreciate to capture an image

Megan Gnanasihamany:

of your own.

Robert Bringhurst:

A name on a map, like a contour line or a

Robert Bringhurst:

smudge of green or squiggle of blue, can never tell you all you

Robert Bringhurst:

want or need to know.

Eric Magrane:

One — Note your elevation above sea level. What

Eric Magrane:

poems occur here?

Robert Bringhurst:

What is is what has happened, Hegel says.

David Abram:

Who cares what Hegel says?!

Robert Bringhurst:

And what has happened

David Abram:

What happens is what is.

Robert Bringhurst:

is what is

Robert Bringhurst:

What is

Robert Bringhurst:

spread out through time

Jan Zwicky:

is what is timeless caught in time.

Vanessa Richards and Chorus:

[Magic Number Song]

Nadia Chaney:

But what stuck with me was the walk, not the

Nadia Chaney:

song. I don't remember the song. But the specific walk that I was

Nadia Chaney:

doing. So then I started playing with this walk all over town.

Nadia Chaney:

And I had the weirdest thing happen, which was this temporal

Nadia Chaney:

effect. Where I started being — the slower I walked, the sooner

Nadia Chaney:

I would get places.

Nadia Chaney:

I was working in a restaurant. And I had my boss start timing

Nadia Chaney:

it until he got super angry. And he was — he stopped. He refused

Nadia Chaney:

to do it anymore. Like he really screamed it out. He was really

Nadia Chaney:

angry, because it was disturbing at a really deep level to his

Nadia Chaney:

sense of... his sense of the way things are.

Nadia Chaney:

And the question that I had was "is time incarcerated?" I read

Nadia Chaney:

and I read and I was like, ah... I can't actually ask this

Nadia Chaney:

question before I ask this other question, "How can we be more

Nadia Chaney:

intimate with time?" I need to first encounter time before I

Nadia Chaney:

start asking is it incarcerated, because there's all these

Nadia Chaney:

presumptions about what is it... and I was doing the NGO thing

Nadia Chaney:

unconsciously — already making the other the object, and then

Nadia Chaney:

trying to fix it and solve it. So luckily, I caught that before

Nadia Chaney:

I started the project and said, "Okay, how can we be more

Nadia Chaney:

intimate with time?" And then the second question, "is time

Nadia Chaney:

incarcerated? And if so, how can we help to liberate it?"

Nadia Chaney:

So these zoom windows I know, I know, it can be offensive to be

Nadia Chaney:

like... I heard David this morning, right, the tone like

Nadia Chaney:

"not on Zoom." But it was different! People would sleep,

Nadia Chaney:

right? There were people from all over the world. So as that

Nadia Chaney:

entire almost like 15 hour period will go by, we'd watch

Nadia Chaney:

the sun, we'd watch the shadows, you'd hear the birds, you'd see

Nadia Chaney:

the dawn. People would fall asleep, and they'd leave the

Nadia Chaney:

sound on, and the video on, and sleeping! Right? That's the...

Nadia Chaney:

it was both the informality and the safety, but also the study

Nadia Chaney:

of time.

Astrida Neimanis:

We are now all tumbling in the circulations of

Astrida Neimanis:

planetary exhaustion, where tiredness is both different and

Astrida Neimanis:

shared. Much has been made of our 24/7 neon-lit late

Astrida Neimanis:

capitalist cultures, the vertigo-inducing speed of the

Astrida Neimanis:

Sixth Extinction, the spectacularly swift and tireless

Astrida Neimanis:

resurgence of white supremacy and eco fascism, alongside the

Astrida Neimanis:

never resting rising heat of the noonday sun. But we have thought

Astrida Neimanis:

perhaps less about what comes after and with the end of this

Astrida Neimanis:

world, the insomniac one — our bodies see no longer hack it. We

Astrida Neimanis:

fall down, fall apart, exhausted. We need to sleep.

Nadia Chaney:

And that happened all the time. It was like we

Nadia Chaney:

were always right on time.

Astrida Neimanis:

This is multispecies sympoiesis at work,

Astrida Neimanis:

in the name of flourishing. Although we often speak of sleep

Astrida Neimanis:

in terms of self care, paying attention to the ocean and its

Astrida Neimanis:

communities reminds us that even sleeping — the most inward

Astrida Neimanis:

oriented and perhaps solipsistic of acts — is actually about

Astrida Neimanis:

mutual care.

Astrida Neimanis:

Some of the planet's most significant deforestation events

Astrida Neimanis:

have in fact occurred underwater. Off the east coast

Astrida Neimanis:

of Tasmania, 95% of the giant kelp forests that once dominated

Astrida Neimanis:

these seas have disappeared in the last few decades. In Western

Astrida Neimanis:

Australia, a particularly hot summer between 2010 and 2013

Astrida Neimanis:

wiped out 100 kilometers of kelp forests. These forests are not

Astrida Neimanis:

only magnificent in and for themselves, but have been vital

Astrida Neimanis:

for the formation of habitat on reefs around temperate

Astrida Neimanis:

Australia. They are places for hundreds of other species of

Astrida Neimanis:

plants and animals to rest.

Megan Gnanasihamany:

A desire for order is the most dangerous

Megan Gnanasihamany:

dream that is held by the majority of North American

Megan Gnanasihamany:

citizens. Technically, even the fascists dream at night. It is

Megan Gnanasihamany:

our obligation to dream differently.

Eric Magrane:

Two — Map the quarter mile radius around your

Eric Magrane:

home in a poem.

Stephen Collis:

Everything's going to be... alright.

Stephen Collis:

Everything's going to be... destroyed.

Kaitlyn Purcell:

The world is going to end. Why is the world

Kaitlyn Purcell:

always fucking ending?

Khari McClelland:

I dunno how to say this, but I feel like

Khari McClelland:

sometimes... I've had to observe a lot of like human life loss

Khari McClelland:

and precarity, so I have a different perspective sometimes

Khari McClelland:

about... I don't know, I feel like this is a weird thing to

Khari McClelland:

say, but I feel like a lot of you might be really sad because,

Khari McClelland:

like, things are really fucked up right now.

Khari McClelland:

And I guess what I'm going to say to you is that... it's been

Khari McClelland:

fucked up for a while. And I just like I kind of live with

Khari McClelland:

that in my gut sometimes.

Khari McClelland:

Just because, you know, for some, for some of us, it's been

Khari McClelland:

hundreds of years of incredible terror. And, you know, it's a

Khari McClelland:

great luxury to feel in this moment like something's wrong.

Khari McClelland:

It's good to be agitated — to want to make things be

Khari McClelland:

different. When we start to become a little too comfortable

Khari McClelland:

with things being out of sort being unjust that's where if it

Khari McClelland:

feels like it's a problem. It's like that since the agitation is

Khari McClelland:

actually some kind of good fuel, I think.

Khari McClelland:

[Song of the Agitators fades in]

Rita Wong:

I struggle between being instrumental in wanting

Rita Wong:

this outcome, and also just being unconditional that

Rita Wong:

whatever happens we still need to do what we can. So it is

Rita Wong:

late, but it is not too late.

Khari McClelland:

Well here we are today, still pushing for

Khari McClelland:

equal pay. And these treaty rights don't hold. Their shiny

Khari McClelland:

like the Judas gold. Stain of blood still remains, a mother's

Khari McClelland:

only son slain. And our youth are crying out for more,

Khari McClelland:

continually being ignored. On that day, we will be family

Khari McClelland:

equal born and free. Dawn will come, night will cease. We'll

Khari McClelland:

rejoice, mind at ease. For that day we'll work and wait. That's

Khari McClelland:

when we'll cease to agitate.

Megan Gnanasihamany:

So every morning, the Earth turns and day

Megan Gnanasihamany:

breaks over the horizon. And every night we spin away

Megan Gnanasihamany:

eclipsed by the planet's own great shadow, facing outward and

Megan Gnanasihamany:

away from the center of our solar system until we're back in

Megan Gnanasihamany:

the favor of the light. It's not so difficult to miss the sunset.

Eric Magrane:

Draw a line. On one side of the line note

Eric Magrane:

observations. On the other side. write responses to those

Eric Magrane:

observations. Which is which?

Jessica Bebenek:

I learned to rinse my hands with vinegar

Jessica Bebenek:

before lifting away the thin new mothers that formed on top of

Jessica Bebenek:

the brewed kombucha every two weeks. To tell mold from age

Jessica Bebenek:

spots, and to let go — to forgive myself for letting

Jessica Bebenek:

things turn too sour. The process of fermentation presents

Jessica Bebenek:

itself almost too easily as a metaphor. The way time

Jessica Bebenek:

transforms something bitter into something full of goodness; how

Jessica Bebenek:

the mother turns raw materials into something entirely new

Jessica Bebenek:

while simultaneously replicating itself. Perhaps we can follow in

Jessica Bebenek:

the footsteps of Susan Sontag's argument in Illness as Metaphor

Jessica Bebenek:

in which she insists that, quote, "Illness is not a

Jessica Bebenek:

metaphor." And that "The most truthful way of regarding

Jessica Bebenek:

illness, and the healthiest way of being ill, is one most

Jessica Bebenek:

purified of, most resistant to metaphoric thinking." end quote.

Jessica Bebenek:

Likewise, perhaps the most truthful, or even the healthiest

Jessica Bebenek:

way of understanding fermentation is as it is —

Jessica Bebenek:

devoid of metaphor. Rejecting metaphor requires extending our

Jessica Bebenek:

feeling, stretching our empathy towards understanding something,

Jessica Bebenek:

not based on its use in relation to human comprehension, but

Jessica Bebenek:

towards attempting to understand it purely for what it is. To

Jessica Bebenek:

understand fermentation as not only a metaphor — because of

Jessica Bebenek:

course it can exist both to us as metaphoric and actual — is to

Jessica Bebenek:

understand it as a naturally occurring process with which

Jessica Bebenek:

humans are simply collaborators. And in understanding this, we

Jessica Bebenek:

can realize that this form of non-human life, this collection

Jessica Bebenek:

of symbiotic bacteria and yeast, is as vital a form of life as

Jessica Bebenek:

our own existence in the world.

Eric Magrane:

Go with your gut, and repeat after me. I am mostly

Eric Magrane:

microbial flora. Great. How does that feel?

Rex Weyler:

When do those molecules of apple become

Rex Weyler:

molecules of me? At what point? For me, I start to realize,

Rex Weyler:

well, you don't need to know that because it's just this

Rex Weyler:

constant flow. And that's part of the ecological consciousness

Rex Weyler:

as well — that we're not independent, isolated beings.

Rex Weyler:

And even though we have this skin, and so forth, that nothing

Rex Weyler:

about us survives or lives without this constant flow of

Rex Weyler:

energy, food, nutrients, and all of this. From an ecological

Rex Weyler:

point of view, there are no isolated things, and everything

Rex Weyler:

is a process. And everything is a process. So it's an

Rex Weyler:

interesting question, but maybe not that relevant to ask "when

Rex Weyler:

does the apple become me?" Because it was me before, and

Rex Weyler:

then me after, and it doesn't matter.

Rex Weyler:

And, you know, this sort of ties into this, this whole idea of

Rex Weyler:

this expanded self. In human society, there have been many

Rex Weyler:

movements, which have proposed that we, that we expand the idea

Rex Weyler:

of self beyond the skin. So we have these social imperatives.

Rex Weyler:

And there's a social self. And we're one with our brothers and

Rex Weyler:

sisters all over the world. And we're a family. We've certainly

Rex Weyler:

bicker like one. But this expand itself doesn't stop with the

Rex Weyler:

human family, does it? And it doesn't even stop with all

Rex Weyler:

sentient beings. Because it's the soil and it's the rock and

Rex Weyler:

it's the earth and it's the atmosphere. Intellectually, we

Rex Weyler:

can arrive there. But emotionally and

Rex Weyler:

inter-relationship-wise, it's very difficult because we keep

Rex Weyler:

falling back into our language — which makes things out of all

Rex Weyler:

this process.

Astrida Neimanis:

Bodies are not self-sufficient, zipped up in

Astrida Neimanis:

some diverse suit of skin. If imagining the sea as a body,

Astrida Neimanis:

however anthropomorphized, can help us understand its fatigue.

Astrida Neimanis:

What might it mean for us to imagine ourselves our human

Astrida Neimanis:

bodies of water as more oceanic? What if we understood ourselves

Astrida Neimanis:

to as whole ecologies made up of component bodies and supporting

Astrida Neimanis:

systems? What if the borders of our sovereign selves were to be

Astrida Neimanis:

a bit dissolved?

Astrida Neimanis:

This is not only an ontological question of what a body is, or

Astrida Neimanis:

even what a body can do. It's a question of care. While our

Astrida Neimanis:

exhaustion can teach us something about the uneven

Astrida Neimanis:

distribution of sleeplessness as an index of other inequalities,

Astrida Neimanis:

it can also encourage us to consider multispecies ecologies

Astrida Neimanis:

of sleeplessness, and what it will take to help each other get

Astrida Neimanis:

some rest. We need each other. We are nothing without each

Astrida Neimanis:

other. Opening to share vulnerability, relying on each

Astrida Neimanis:

other, we might help hold each others fatigue.

Vicky:

each others

David Abram:

Then the long range migrations of certain creatures

David Abram:

can only be a conundrum; a puzzle we'll try to solve by

David Abram:

continually compounding the various internal mechanisms that

David Abram:

might somehow in combination grant the creature the power to

David Abram:

grapple its way across the world. But instead of

David Abram:

hypothesizing more metaphorical gadgets, adding further

David Abram:

accessories to a Crane's or a Salmon's internal array of

David Abram:

tools, what if we were to allow that the animals migratory skill

David Abram:

arises from a felt rapport between its body and the

David Abram:

breathing earth?

David Abram:

That a Crane's 3000 kilometer journey across the span of a

David Abram:

continent is propelled by a felt unison between its flexing

David Abram:

muscles and the sensitive flesh of this planet — this huge

David Abram:

curved expanse, roiling with air currents, and rippling with

David Abram:

electromagnetic pulses. And so is enacted as much by Earth's

David Abram:

vitality as by the bird that flies within it. What if this

David Abram:

dynamic alliance between an animal and the animate orb that

David Abram:

gives it breath — What... what is this? What seasonal tensions

David Abram:

and relaxations in the atmosphere? What subtle torsions

David Abram:

in the geosphere help to draw half a million Cranes so

David Abram:

precisely across the continent? What rolling succession or

David Abram:

sequence of blossomings helps summon these millions of

David Abram:

Butterflies across the belly of the land? What alterations in

David Abram:

the olfactory medium? What bursts of solar exuberance

David Abram:

through the magnetosphere? What attractions and repulsions? For

David Abram:

surely, really, and truly, these migratory folks are not taking

David Abram:

readings from technical instruments, or mathematically

David Abram:

calculating angles. They are riding waves of sensation,

David Abram:

responding attentively to allurements and gestures in the

David Abram:

topological manifold; reverberating subtle expressions

David Abram:

that reach them from afar. These beings are dancing, not with

David Abram:

themselves, but with the animate rondure of the Earth. Their

David Abram:

wider flesh, meeting — between oneself, one's creaturely body,

David Abram:

and the vast body of the land.

David Abram:

So perhaps it'd be useful to consider the large collective

David Abram:

migrations of various creatures as active expressions of the

David Abram:

Earth itself — to consider them as slow gestures of a living

David Abram:

geology, improvisational experiments that gradually

David Abram:

stabilized into habits, now necessary to the ongoing

David Abram:

metabolism of the sphere. For truly, are not these cyclical

David Abram:

pilgrimages, these huge creaturely hejiras, also

David Abram:

pulsations within the broad body of the Earth? Are they not ways

David Abram:

that divergent places or ecosystems communicate with one

David Abram:

another, trading vital qualities essential to their continued

David Abram:

flourishing?

David Abram:

Think again then of the salmon. This gift born of the rocky

David Abram:

gravels and melting glaciers. Above here, nurtured by colossal

David Abram:

cedars and tumbled trunks decked with ferns, fungi, and moss. An

David Abram:

aquatic muscled energy strengthening itself in the

David Abram:

mossed and forested mountains, until it's ready to be released

David Abram:

into the broad ocean. Pouring seaward it adds itself to that

David Abram:

voluminous cauldron of currents spiraling in huge gyres, shaded

David Abram:

by algal blooms, and charged by faint glissandos of whalesong.

David Abram:

Until, grown large with the seas abundance, this ocean-infused

David Abram:

life flows back up the rivers and tributaries, and spreads out

David Abram:

into the wooded valleys; gifting the hollows and the needle

David Abram:

highlands with new minerals and nutrient; feeding bears and

David Abram:

osprey and eagles; ensuring that the glinting gift will be reborn

David Abram:

afresh from the lump of luminous eggs stashed under a layer of

David Abram:

pebbles. This circulation, this systole and diastole is one of

David Abram:

the surest signs that this Earth is alive. A rhythmic pulse of

David Abram:

silvery glacier-fed briliance, pouring through various arteries

David Abram:

into the wide body of the ocean. Circulating and growing there,

David Abram:

only to return by various veins to the beating heart of the

David Abram:

forest, ravid with new life.

Eric Magrane:

Go to a different elevation. What poems occur

Eric Magrane:

here?

Khari McClelland:

I'm always kind of like, interested in

Khari McClelland:

like, who's not in the room? I guess I think about that, like,

Khari McClelland:

is this a space where my grandmother would be like,

Khari McClelland:

"Yeah, this is where I should be." And like, not just my

Khari McClelland:

grandmother, but like, so many of the people that I grew up

Khari McClelland:

with, who didn't have the luxury of particular kinds of education

Khari McClelland:

or particular kinds of experience. And are they

Khari McClelland:

actually less equipped to be able to provide solutions to

Khari McClelland:

some of the challenges that we're facing? Is there a kind of

Khari McClelland:

wisdom or brilliance that is overlooked? The mundane

Khari McClelland:

creativity that's practiced by poor folks, by women often, and

Khari McClelland:

how that sits inside of inside of here.

Nadia Chaney:

People who would say to me over and over again,

Nadia Chaney:

"I don't belong anywhere. I hate groups. I don't join groups. I

Nadia Chaney:

won't go to school, I can't go to school." A lot of neuro

Nadia Chaney:

divergence, a lot of children coming and feeling welcome to

Nadia Chaney:

speak, and speak their mind, and be taken seriously. It just

Nadia Chaney:

really meant a lot — like this place where people would

Nadia Chaney:

continuously name "I don't belong, I don't feel belonging

Nadia Chaney:

and I come here." And this here — there was no here.

Khari McClelland:

There really is no way to presuppose what

Khari McClelland:

kind of miracle exists inside of each and every person. And when

Khari McClelland:

we look, and we think we already know what kind of magic exists

Khari McClelland:

inside of another, we've lost something.

Nadia Chaney:

That's what I mean by inter-cosmological space.

Nadia Chaney:

These whole like sets of knowledge could work together

Nadia Chaney:

and come to life, and we would play with them.

Vicki Kelly:

So in Anishinaabe way, we have our stories — we

Vicki Kelly:

call them the sacred ones, the ones that are informing the

Vicki Kelly:

worldview — the way to learn to view the world. And we call

Vicki Kelly:

those sacred stories. And those sacred stories morph and form

Vicki Kelly:

our imagination. And so the stories people us.

Vicki Kelly:

Anishnaabe, the ones who were lowered here, were gifted with

Vicki Kelly:

the capacity for language, but the language comes from the

Vicki Kelly:

place. And the place is the sounds; the acoustic! And then

Vicki Kelly:

when our language, respectfully, fits the place, and the place is

Vicki Kelly:

singing it, and we're ringing it, it's a completely different

Vicki Kelly:

thing.

Mark Fettes:

I too, was thinking of Dylan Robinson and his citing

Mark Fettes:

of Leanne Simpson in terms of Anishinaabe internationalism. So

Mark Fettes:

thinking of the language as embedded in this web of

Mark Fettes:

interspecies, international in her terms, relations.

Vicki Kelly:

And then we track the teachings of our relatives.

Vicki Kelly:

So when we're tracking them, we have to know their names and

Vicki Kelly:

their stories and their teachings, given this

Vicki Kelly:

mythopoetic landscape, what we call the cosmology. And we call

Vicki Kelly:

that way finding. We're finding the human way, the Anishnaabe

Vicki Kelly:

way of walking in this cosmology, and the teachers are

Vicki Kelly:

our relatives. In our story, in our sacred story, all the

Vicki Kelly:

teachings that were gifted to the beings in the seeds of

Vicki Kelly:

creation, were also poured into the human and overflowed into

Vicki Kelly:

the body of the human being, as well as the mind. And so we

Vicki Kelly:

don't know them only in our heads.

Mark Fettes:

And so right across Canada, you hear and I'm sure in

Mark Fettes:

other parts of the world, you hear elders saying that the

Mark Fettes:

language is the way the land talks to us. That is in a sense,

Mark Fettes:

it's not our language, it's the land's language, which we have

Mark Fettes:

learned in order to listen better to what it has to say. So

Mark Fettes:

then, when the language has faded from daily use amongst the

Mark Fettes:

people, there could still be a sense in which much of the

Mark Fettes:

language is nonetheless embodied relationally in interhuman

Mark Fettes:

relations, and in interspecies international relations. And

Mark Fettes:

also a way in which even where those relationships themselves —

Mark Fettes:

as is usually the case — are also frayed, because of the same

Mark Fettes:

processes of colonization, capitalism and so on,

Mark Fettes:

dispossession. Nonetheless, if relationships can be

Mark Fettes:

re-established with the land, and a lot of knowledge has been

Mark Fettes:

transposed into English and other colonial languages about

Mark Fettes:

those practices, and the practices themselves are

Mark Fettes:

enduring and carried on and passed on. Then there's a sense

Mark Fettes:

in which language is also present in those things, even

Mark Fettes:

though it's not being spoken as the language itself at the

Vicki Kelly:

Robin Wall Kimmerer says that some of us, us the old

Vicki Kelly:

moment.

Vicki Kelly:

ones, you know, we walk back along the path where our

Vicki Kelly:

ancestors left, the broken pieces — the songs, the dances,

Vicki Kelly:

the words, the ways, the ceremonies — and we pick them

Vicki Kelly:

up, and we learn how to hold them; to carry them. We put them

Vicki Kelly:

in our bundle. We have these words, we put them in our

Vicki Kelly:

bundle, and they travel with us. Like a lens, they help us

Vicki Kelly:

interpret. They help us to see in ways, that's where we use the

Vicki Kelly:

phrase wayfinding

Mark Fettes:

I think back to my entry into working with

Mark Fettes:

Indigenous people and thinking about the languages and my

Mark Fettes:

mentor at the time, my first mentor in this area was a woman

Mark Fettes:

called Ruth Norton, an elder from Manitoba, from Fort

Mark Fettes:

Alexander. And at one point, I was doing research on the Ruth's

Mark Fettes:

behalf for the Assembly of First Nations. And I had been reading

Mark Fettes:

the literature on bilingualism and so on. At one point, Ruth

Mark Fettes:

said to me gently but very firmly, "If some of our people

Mark Fettes:

don't speak their language, it doesn't mean that the language

Mark Fettes:

is still not deeply part of them. I don't expect you to

Mark Fettes:

understand that. I just want you to accept that."

Vicki Kelly:

So the Haudenosaunee scholar Dan

Vicki Kelly:

Longboat says "How long will it take our imaginations to

Vicki Kelly:

naturalize here?" Right, how long will it take to morph, so

Vicki Kelly:

that we can carry the teachings of the beings who are here as

Vicki Kelly:

our relatives? As, respectfully, as they are given. Not

Vicki Kelly:

interpreted. As they are given.

Eric Magrane:

Choose a species you know little about, but that

Eric Magrane:

lives in your ecosystem. Learn everything you can about that

Eric Magrane:

species, then go find the species. Write what happens.

Marjorie Wonham:

[Translating Pablo Neruda] You ask me perhaps

Marjorie Wonham:

about the Alcyonarian plumes that tremble in the pure origins

Marjorie Wonham:

of the Southern tides, and about the polyps' crystalline

Marjorie Wonham:

construction you have no doubt considered one more question,

Marjorie Wonham:

posing it now.

Eric Magrane:

Find an urban ecotone. Stand there. Write a

Eric Magrane:

poem from the dual space.

Stephen Collis:

Walkers are sometimes in flight. Have orbits

Stephen Collis:

that do not recognize the idiocy of borders.

Eric Magrane:

Imagine a rise in sea level. How will that affect

Eric Magrane:

your elevation poems?

Hari Alluri:

My dears, burglary has always been the surest way

Hari Alluri:

to get the gods to notice and give chase. Language, sunlight,

Hari Alluri:

the list goes on.

Eric Magrane:

List everything that is natural around you. List

Eric Magrane:

everything that is not natural around you.

Cecily Nicholson:

Sky is light grown over days, everything a

Cecily Nicholson:

coast of open bane, commerce winds up a bray coarse grit

Cecily Nicholson:

shoals dense blue green fluvial strips and the dark green delta

Cecily Nicholson:

dust — probably spores — hung in the air. Black apple fist fur

Cecily Nicholson:

fish and lumber. Gray deciduous claims heights all logged to

Cecily Nicholson:

stumps.

Cecily Nicholson:

Conclaree has cht cht chp chp chp scoops blue ponded hard, to

Cecily Nicholson:

boat or hike you would fly, flap, soar and dart.

Stephen Collis:

So give me the light of stars that strives to

Stephen Collis:

but can't quite reach us. The one whose eyes are struck by the

Stephen Collis:

beam of darkness, the wings blinding, forms beating,

Stephen Collis:

piercing, all songs singing, fragile light spiralling from

Stephen Collis:

every wood and window. The time now is for pirates, and possibly

Stephen Collis:

warblers.

Hari Alluri:

And if I don't believe it when I say it,

Hari Alluri:

sunlight, language, fail me if you must. I know eventually you

Hari Alluri:

will. Divinity never forgets what's their's. The God's gave

Hari Alluri:

us healing willingly. We've been trying to return it ever since.

Hari Alluri:

Hand waving out front, shooing us away. They just won't take it

Hari Alluri:

back.

Eric Magrane:

Stand up and put your arms out. The length of

Eric Magrane:

your arms is the circle of the poem.

Cecily Nicholson:

We've learned to read the surface, like

Cecily Nicholson:

departed fluff and pollen husks. Phantom wings lighten up and fly

Cecily Nicholson:

away, wet and fall into soil, and a success of propagation

Cecily Nicholson:

rest and whetted loose trailing, roots dangle and venture.

David Abram:

In the absence of the written page — the book —

David Abram:

the land will be the visual mnemonic, and it will be

David Abram:

speaking stories steadily to us, in various sites in the

David Abram:

landscape, various powers potencies presences.

Robert Bringhurst:

Yeah sure, the world, the land is the

Robert Bringhurst:

original page, if you like. And it's not written because it's

Robert Bringhurst:

constantly writing itself and erasing itself, and correcting

Robert Bringhurst:

or at any rate changing itself.

Megan Gnanasihamany:

If the phenomena of the sunset is part

Megan Gnanasihamany:

of the natural, unfeeling world, and I find myself to be as well,

Megan Gnanasihamany:

then what applies to the sunset must in part apply to me. And if

Megan Gnanasihamany:

the sunset is beautiful, then the world must be beautiful, and

Megan Gnanasihamany:

I at least in part must be too. This revelation is present in

Megan Gnanasihamany:

viewing any great miracle of the random universe that patiently

Megan Gnanasihamany:

allows us to exist at the same moment as Northern Lights or

Megan Gnanasihamany:

Spring. And if looking is a practice of discovery, then the

Megan Gnanasihamany:

potential to find some similarity between ourselves and

Megan Gnanasihamany:

the sunset should be enough to sustain some faith in living.

Megan Gnanasihamany:

So go now, and watch the setting sun. See its colors be devoured

Megan Gnanasihamany:

by horizons and skylines — the sky emptied out. There is

Megan Gnanasihamany:

nothing to prove. What gratitude, love and grace we

Megan Gnanasihamany:

might feel in watching the sunset has no recipient to greet

Megan Gnanasihamany:

it. And what good is a fiction of pure individuality when you

Megan Gnanasihamany:

are loving the world across the chasm between yourself and

Megan Gnanasihamany:

everything that is possible? The goings ons of chemicals in

Megan Gnanasihamany:

rotations, the marks of physics in their indifferent routines.

Megan Gnanasihamany:

We are so small in the glow of the setting sun. Nothing natural

Megan Gnanasihamany:

burns purely for our benefit. So love those last drags of light,

Megan Gnanasihamany:

and our love is reflected back — leading us into the quiet

Megan Gnanasihamany:

miracle of loving and being loved, with nowhere to go but

Megan Gnanasihamany:

on.

Vicki Kelly:

And our responsibility, says Leroy

Vicki Kelly:

Little Bear, our responsibility is to give it back through

Vicki Kelly:

ceremony — that we're paying attention

Eric Magrane:

Fifteen — Write a poem that takes place over 4.5

Eric Magrane:

billion years. Thanks.

Chorus:

The feet are the link.

Chorus:

Between earth and the body. Begin there. Begin there.

Chorus:

The lungs are the link between body and air. Between body and

Chorus:

air.

Chorus:

The hands, these uprooted feet, are the means

Chorus:

Of our shaping and grasping. Clasp them.

Chorus:

The eyes are the hands of the head; its feet are the ears. Its

Chorus:

feet are the ears.

Mendel Skulski:

This episode was composed with the voices and

Mendel Skulski:

words of Michael Datura, Astrida Neimanis, Cosmo Sheldrake, Rex

Mendel Skulski:

Weyler, Robert Bringhurst, Jan Zwicky, David Abrahm, Megan

Mendel Skulski:

Gnanasihamany, Stephen Collis, Eric Magrane, Hari Alluri, Nadia

Mendel Skulski:

Chaney, Kaitlyn Purcell, Khari McClelland, Rita Wong, Jessica

Mendel Skulski:

Bebenek, Vicki Kelly, Mark Fettes, Marjorie Wonham, and

Mendel Skulski:

Cecily Nicholson.

Mendel Skulski:

And with music by Cosmo Sheldrake, Anne Bourne, Meredith

Mendel Skulski:

Buck, as arranged by Vanessa Richards, Jonathan Kawchuk, the

Mendel Skulski:

Time Zone collective, Emily Millard, Khari McClelland, Ruby

Mendel Skulski:

Singh, and Nathan Shubert. Field recordings by Julian Fisher, and

Mendel Skulski:

our theme song by Sunfish Moon Light.

Mendel Skulski:

A huge thank you to Erin Robinsong and Michael Datura,

Mendel Skulski:

without whom these conversations wouldn’t have taken place.

Mendel Skulski:

Thanks to Hollyhock for their generous hospitality and

Mendel Skulski:

support, and thank you to Juliette Bertoldo, Megan

Mendel Skulski:

Gnanasihamany, and Vanessa Richards for the help recording.

Mendel Skulski:

And thanks to you, for listening. Don’t forget to take

Mendel Skulski:

our survey, and to take care of yourself too.

Mendel Skulski:

You'll be hearing from us again soon.

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