This is your go-to Podcast, where we help parents navigate the complexities of family life. Hosted by Ali Kessler of Greyson’s Choice, we’ll cover everything from understanding domestic violence to navigating the legal system, finding the right therapists, life hacks, family law, mental health, custody battles, and how to protect children in dangerous situations.

Episode 1: Meet Your Host, Ali Kessler

For our very first podcast at Grey Minds Think Ali.Ke, we thought it would be helpful to learn more about your host, Ali Kessler. Not only is she the founder of Greyson’s Choice and a passionate parent advocate, but Ali is also a survivor of Domestic Violence. In 2021, Ali’s son Greyson was murdered by his father during a court-ordered timesharing in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. Hosted today by Erin Cooper, Greyson’s Choice board member and lifelong friend of Ali’s, listen to Erin and Ali have an insightful conversation about Ali before and after her worst nightmare came true. You will hear Ali share the story of what she was like before motherhood, how she met Greyson’s father, and some truly heartbreaking revelations that became her new norm. Greyson was the present that Ali couldn’t keep, but she perseveres and now finds comfort in helping others fighting similar battles. This is a don’t-miss episode! Listen now!

In this episode:

·     Chapter 1: Introduction and Ali’s Life Before Motherhood

·     Chapter 2: Ali Moves to NYC

·     Chapter 3: Ali’s Pregnancy & Decision to Have a Baby

·     Chapter 4: Welcome to the World, Greyson Kessler & Co-Parenting Challenges

·     Chapter 5: Escalating Negative Behaviors from Greyson’s Father

·     Chapter 6: Alarming and Erratic Behavior that Led to Greyson’s Death

·     Chapter 7: The Impact of Coercive Control

·     Chapter 8: Loss and Grief– The Aftermath

·     Chapter 9: Advocacy and Greyson’s Choice

·     Chapter 10: Upcoming Projects and Fundraising

About Ali Kessler

Ali Kessler is a writer, marketing professional, passionate parent advocate, and founder of Greyson’s Choice, a 501(c)(3) created to raise awareness about the risk of domestic abuse on children. Greyson’s Choice was founded by Ali Kessler in memory of her sweet, vibrant, and fearless 4.5-year-old son, Greyson, who was murdered by his biological father in a murder-suicide during an unsupervised, court-approved visit in Ft. Lauderdale, FL, in 2021. This came just hours after her petition for a domestic violence injunction was denied by a Broward County judge, citing that the “petitioner has failed to allege any overt acts by the respondent which would constitute domestic violence under Florida Statute.”

Ali’s advocacy efforts culminated in successfully passing Greyson’s Law during the 2023 legislative session. This bill now requires the court to consider threats against ex-partners or spouses when making child visitation and custody determinations in the court, expanding to include the following factors: evidence of domestic violence, whether a parent in the past or currently has reasonable cause to believe that they or a minor child is, or has been in imminent danger of becoming the victim of domestic/sexual violence by the other parent, even if no other legal action has been brought or is currently pending in court.

Contact Ali:

Email

LinkedIn

Website

Episode 1: Meet Your Host, Ali Kessler

Show Notes:

Transcription:

Chapter 1: Introduction and Ali’s Life Before Motherhood

Ali: 00.46

Hello, and welcome to the first edition of Grey Minds Think Ali.Ke. Today is a little bit different than all the other podcasts will be. We are doing something called Meet Your Host. I thought it'd be really important for everyone to know who Ali Kessler is and why we're doing this podcast. So, today's episode will be featuring me, Ali Kessler, and our host today will be my best friend since high school, Erin Cooper.

Erin: 01.14

Hi, thank you for having me. I'm happy to host. Thanks for coming. And as you said, we've been friends since we were 14, I would say.

Ali: Yeah, 14 is when I moved.

Erin: So, we've been through a lot of life changes together.

Ali: That is definitely a true statement.

Erin: And so, I thought what would be the best way to start for people to get to know you was to find out about what your life was like before you were a mom. What did you envision your future to look like?

Ali: 01.46

Oh gosh. Let's see. What did I envision in my future? Definitely not what it is. I was very hopeful. I had a lot of dreams. You know, I was pretty adventurous. I moved around a lot. As an adult, I moved to Colorado. I moved to New York City. And my life was, you know, pretty normal. I had a very normal life. I had, you know, great friends. I always had some, you know, good jobs I traveled. I did sketch comedy when I lived in New York City. I worked at a sleepaway camp.

Erin: 02.16

You were always very motivated and a very good student. You went to a great university. You always had advanced degrees, and you were always working towards the next big step.

Ali: 02.40

Correct. I went to the University of Florida for my undergrad, where I earned a bachelor’s in advertising and a minor in English. I then attended the Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale for graphic design, which was a pretty awesome program. And then, most recently, I went back to school at Full Sail University and got a degree in digital marketing just so I could sort of hone in on all the digital stuff that I was working on, which also related to advertising and graphic design and whatnot.

I've always been very impressed with how you were never handed like a lot of money to start off. You really had to work. You had to get loans. You had to get credit cards to pay for housing. I mean, you really hustled in life. Nothing was handed to you. And I've always been impressed with that.

Well, thank you. I mean, my parents were divorced growing up. So, you know, we didn't come from a lot of money. We were middle class, but we were never in need of anything. I was able to do well in school and I got a lot of student grants and student loans, and I was able to continue with my trajectory and not be hindered.

Well, so you moved to New York a little later in life, I guess what, in your early 30s? For the third time.

Yes. That's the most recent time. That was in my mid-30s. Yes.

And as an onlooker, it seemed to me like you were going to New York to expand your career and to find the love of your life.

Yes, I mean, at the time, I was sort of just sort of stagnant here in Fort Lauderdale. I was in between jobs. I was doing freelance work at home and I was just very unmotivated. And I just felt like, you know, knew a new change of scenery and, you know, a little New York City life could do me some good. So I just, you know, I actually was going to move to Portland, Oregon, and I went to Oregon for two weeks. And I had so much fun there. I went to waterfalls and hikes, and it was just beautiful. And then I came home and I said, nope, not moving to Portland. I think I'll go to New York City. It just wasn't, it wasn't for me. I was like, I need to get dressed up every now and again.

Yeah. And I think where's more fun to be single and live your best life than in New York City, right?

Yeah, I mean, I grew up in New York outside of the city, but then after college, I moved back to the city. So, I was able to experience that right after college. And then, you know, it was definitely a good steppingstone, and I was able to meet a lot of good people for a career, for, you know, friends.

Yeah. And yeah, I mean. You were there for how long?

I was there for about four years at the time, and then I moved back home for a job.

And I think you kind of missed your family and friends.

Yeah, it was getting, you know, you can only do New York City for a certain amount of time before you just feel completely drained. As fun, as exciting as it is, you know, it's exhausting. Yeah. So, you know, I had a few job offers. I had one in Brooklyn that I accepted. And then I had a job offer from a big ad agency here in Fort Lauderdale that seemed almost too good to be true. They were in my hometown, so my family would be here. They were offering me a good and competitive salary and benefits. And they also offered to pay for my relocation, which, you know, it just seemed like a no-brainer if I ever did wanna come back. They seemed to really want me, which was, you know, a nice feeling. So, I ended up actually accepting that position in the end.

Chapter 2: Ali Moves to NYC

So, at this point, when you were in New York City, you were casually dating John. And you should note that this man will be Greyson's father. But you're casually dating John.

Not the whole time, just the last month I was in New York.

Okay. And you had not discussed, let's get pregnant. This was not a plan that you and John had.

No, this wasn't, we didn't have any kind of plan. In fact, we had met a year prior to our dating. We met online on a match or one of those dating sites. We met and we hung out like two nights in a row on a weekend. And then he literally sent me a text message saying that he didn't think it was going to work out. That I reminded him of Chelsea Handler and Amy Schumer and that he didn't see me as being the mother of his children.

Which you, at the time, thought was an incredible compliment.

Well, my reply was, thank you. I love Amy Schumer and Chelsea Handler. I was like, that means I'm doing something right. And I was like, OK, it was no skin off my back. We just met.

Right. You know, okay, nice knowing you. Other fish on the sea.

Yeah. So, then a year later, on Valentine's Day. So, this is 2016. John sent me a text message asking if I wanted to meet for a drink. And I was actually out with a girlfriend of mine after work. We were having a little single Galentines, and I was actually right near where John suggested. So, I, you know, just humored it, and I just went. I was like, okay,

Right. Let's just see, you know, and I remember you telling me at the time because you always dated kind of the handsome, cool guy of the group, right? And I always remember giving you a hard time like, Oh, Ali, you know, you don't always have to be with the hottest, coolest guy around.

Which apparently I do because of my current boyfriend, but yeah.

Your current boyfriend is pretty cute. So, you texted me and said I'm giving a nice guy a try.

Yeah, I don't remember saying that, but yeah, sure. This was definitely different than my normal you know my norm, I guess.

And I remember thinking, okay, good for you, Al. Give a nice guy a try.

Yeah and this was you know this was like I said Valentine's Day so we dated casually for that like month but I had accepted that job and I knew I was moving away. So I knew that it was never going to go anywhere.

Yeah. And you guys were just sort of like, see you later.

Yeah, I was just like, oh, I'm moving to Florida, you know, keep in touch. Or not. And that was it.

And then I remember being out to dinner with you and you jokingly saying, yeah, well, who knows, I could be pregnant. And I was so surprised. And you said, oh, I'm just kidding. I took a pregnancy test this morning because your period was late but it was negative.

And you in your period is not normally late. And you were like, no, I'm definitely not pregnant. But it was it was a foreshadowing of what would become a revelation later.

Yeah, I mean, it was kind of, I feel like God's intervention that I did accept that job in Florida because I was living in a third-floor walk-up in New York City. Right. And I just couldn't imagine, if I had taken the job in Brooklyn, how I would have managed to have a newborn in a walk-up apartment with a stroller and whatnot. So, I feel like, you know, moving to Florida was sort of a crazy coincidence. And, you know, my family was here to obviously help me with Greyson.

Chapter 3: Ali’s Pregnancy & Decision to Have a Baby

Yeah. And, you know, yeah, I mean, so. All right. So, surprise. You're pregnant. How did you feel? And what were some of your hopes and dreams for this baby?

Oh my gosh, I was so scared. I didn't know what; I thought it was a joke. I went to like four doctors, I just double checked.

Didn't you take like five pregnancy tests?

I took like 10, I think I took about 10. And I was just sort of like, this can't be right. This can't be real. And then I just sort of let it sink in a little. And of course, I had to sort of think about

Well, okay, well, what does this mean? You know, I live alone. And, you know, obviously, John and I were not together. So, I actually had to think about, well, would I keep this baby? Is this something that I want? At the time, I was 39 years old, and it was the first time I’d ever gotten pregnant. I had a good job. And I just felt like I was in a good place mentally to take on this new role. And I decided that I was going to go ahead and have a baby.

So you called John and gave him the news eventually, right? I'm sure you went to a few doctor's appointments beforehand.

Yeah, I, you know, said we have to talk and we did. And I told him and, you know, I could not have told him and lived a happily ever after with my child. But I opted to tell him because I thought at the time that it was the right thing. Yeah. And he was just not happy about it. He wanted no part of being a father. He wanted no part of me. He wanted no part of our lives. He made it very clear that he would not be present and that this was just not what he wanted. And I said, Okay, I understand. You can sign away your rights, whatever we need to do, but I'm gonna have this baby. And at the time John was still living in New York, New Jersey, and I was in Florida, so we weren't living in the same city. And I sort of left the ball on his court and went from there. I started getting just really horrible text messages and...harassing behaviors at that time, to the point where I actually had to block his phone number while I was pregnant because it was just not healthy. And I was trying to make it as positive, the most positive pregnancy experience that I could.

Yes. And it was a pretty good pregnancy. You didn't seem very sick. You seemed pretty joyful. And I was so relieved for you.

Yeah. I mean, everything, you know, until the very end where I just started swelling up and getting really big, but everything was easy. I didn't have any big issues.

And the birth was beautiful. I was lucky to be there. I was in the delivery room. I actually was the first person to see him and he was just perfect. And just gazing up at you, just like you guys locked eyes, it was a really beautiful moment.

You're going to make me cry.

Chapter 4: Welcome to the World, Greyson Kessler & Co-Parenting Challenges

Yes, I'm sorry, but he's just a special boy. So, Greyson was born, and then things changed with John. He decided to move here. Yes. Correct? Was that right away?

Um, it was within a couple of months.

Yeah. Right. And I remember him coming down and getting a paternity test.

Well, yeah, he did like at home his own version that he bought from CVS without me knowing and he swabbed Greyson's cheek and, you know, sure enough, he was the father. Which, you know, was also contentious. He didn't believe he was the father.

Right. He didn't believe, you know, the entire pregnancy that he was the father.

Right, right. Which I'm not sure why anyone would make that up because the minute the child's born, you know, you can prove otherwise.

Right. Or you can prove it. Initially, we had some glimpses into his instability, but we didn't recognize it at the time.

Sure. I mean, I, you know, obviously thought that, you know, I would think that most men would probably be scared if, you know, a woman said that they were pregnant and you're the father. I get that. But I was not expecting the level of hatred that came along with it and blame and, and just overall, you know.

Yeah. The vitriol.

Yeah. I mean, it was just, it was unwarranted, and you know, at some point you just have to just accept that this is reality. Or not. He could have been like, okay, well, you know, good luck. I will sign away my rights and walk away. And he could have lived the life that he wanted to live. And so, I never asked him to, you know, be a part of our lives.

No. Right. So, he took you to court when Greyson was a baby.

Yeah. He was like when he first moved down here, he wanted to do everything organically. He said he didn’t want to use lawyers. They're just going to eat our money. And yeah, you know, let's sort of, you know, do this just amicably and whatnot. And sure enough, within six months, I was served papers that he was suing for paternity and a name change. He actually wanted me to change Greyson's last name to his, which he wasn't even on the birth certificate.

Right. Right. So, how did that go in court?

Well, thankfully, he did not get the name change. But at the time, I was told when I hired counsel that if a man wants 50% custody, they will get 50% custody. I now know that that was a rebuttable presumption, meaning that right now, a new law has been passed. That's called the 50-50 law in layman's terms. But that was not a law when Greyson was born, which means that it could have been argued a little bit more than it was.

Right. And so, did you guys have 50-50 from the onset?

We did like a step-up program. So, it started off with just some visitation, you know, like during the week at my house, he'd come and give Grey a bath and then put him to bed. Then we started doing overnight on the weekend, one night, and then it got bumped up from there.

And how did you feel about this arrangement?

Ali: 18.21

Not good. I did not like handing my baby over to a stranger. I was breastfeeding when John first moved down. And I didn't know John very well. I never lived with him. We were never married. I was just basically handing my child to a stranger. So, I was really not happy about that- but I also didn't want to interfere with him bonding with Greyson. So, I accepted that, and I did what I could to sort of make this the best possible experience for us all.

And I think for Greyson, he had the most wonderful life with you. Can you give people an idea of what maybe a typical day looked like for you and Greyson?

Oh my gosh. Well, in the beginning, I mean, a typical day was, you know, waking up with him as an infant and giving him his bottle and watching cartoons. And he was instantly in love with Daniel Tiger. And then I became obsessed with all the music and I was just singing songs. And then we started, you know, when he was getting a little bit older, we were able to do some activities. We did a swim class when he was only three months, a mommy and me swim. I took him to a bunch of mommy and me classes at like My Gym and music class. And just, you know, I just had so much fun just spending time with him one-on-one, either just, going to one of his classes or just going to the park. Or, you know, as he got older, we used to go to the pool. He loved water slides. And then we just started doing more adventurous activities. I took him to Disney a few times. I took him to SeaWorld because he was obsessed with orcas.

That Disney trip where he met Mickey when he was a baby, and the whole park was talking about this baby who loved Mickey. He was so animated, and he kept grabbing his nose.

He was, I'm trying to think how old I think he was. I think he was about seven months old. Actually, I got in my memories today from Facebook, and today was the day we went. Today. Oh my God. So, we went to a meet and greet, and he saw Mickey Mouse because we watched Mickey Mouse's clubhouse, and he just started squeezing Mickey's nose and squealing- like he would laugh, like squeeze it. And you know, Grey was named Gigs because he had this infectious laugh that you just couldn't help but laugh back. So, he just started squealing and screaming with delight about meeting Mickey. And there was a photographer there that took the pictures for the meet and greet. And later on that day, before we left the park, I went over to the place where you pick up the pictures to see if you want to buy them. I was listening to the staff that worked there waiting in line. And they were literally saying, this baby from this morning was just the cutest thing they ever saw. And that they were just amazed and was so adorable. And I'm like, were you guys just talking about Greyson? And they're like, yeah, I'm like, I'm his mom, and I'm here to pick up the pictures. And, you know, it's just so cute because, you know, a lot of times babies when they meet characters get scared. And he loved it and he continued to love Mickey. So, we went a few times.

And you guys traveled together. You went on cruises.

Yes, we did two cruises, and he loved both.

Yeah. He had a really wonderful life. What was his favorite meal? You made him like spaghetti meatballs a lot.

He went through little phases, but I mean, he always loved chicken nuggets and macaroni and cheese. He loved Ikea meatballs. Normal kid stuff, obviously pizza, but he also loved odd snacks at night. Like his bedtime snack would be like salami or just the most random things.

And as your friend, I can say that it was the happiest I'd ever seen you.

Yeah, I mean, it was the first time in my life where I felt like, okay, this is my purpose. You know, I found my way. I didn't even care what else really happened as long as Greyson was with me. Everything was, everything was good.

Right, and in a roundabout way, you did find your true love in New York City.

I say that all the time. Yeah, I did.

So back to Greyson's father, co-parenting was a challenge a lot of the time. And what are some ways that he used to try and manipulate you and gain control over your life?

He just made everything difficult. There was nothing that was not contested, even if it was just a conversation, you know, just about schedule or time. I mean, everything was just a battle. Right. Which is fine. Well, preschool was a nightmare. Greyson was zoned to go to school wherever I was. So, it shouldn't have been that big of an issue. You know, I toured about like 10 different preschools, and I made a whole deck, an Excel spreadsheet of the schools, the pros and the cons, the costs and what they offered and just everything. And he literally just said no to all of them. He said the only one that he agreed to was one that was by him, which was 30 minutes for me. So, it was really hard to co-parent with someone who just constantly didn't agree on anything.

Right. So, everything was just a no, no, no. And did you recognize that as a ploy for control?

I recognized it as him trying to be as difficult as possible because he literally told me time and time again even when I would come to pick up Grey with Grey there and present, he would say my life goal will be to make you suffer. So, he was doing everything in his power to make that happen. He would never make anything easy, or just do the right thing or even just do anything that was in Greyson's best interest. It was always about hurting me first; Greyson was second.

Right. And did you reach out for help during this period of time when he was being so difficult and manipulative?

I mean, of course. I mean, I had a lawyer that was handling my case and I kept her up to date on all the things he would do. I would screenshot everything and I would text her every little thing that John did throughout his four years. I mean, you know, and John definitely did aside from, you know, little things or even text messages and harassing and stalking and all of the things that we know that happened at the end. He stopped paying for things. He never agreed to pay for things. He didn't pay for school; I would end up paying, and then we'd have to try to get the money on the backend. Yeah, it was just never, it was always contentious, and you know, I just never really knew what would happen or what was going on behind closed doors with him and Grey, you know, because I didn't, I never saw them together, and I never lived with him. So, it was just really hard to gauge what was going on when I wasn't there.

Chapter 5: Escalating Negative Behaviors from Greyson’s Father

So, when did you first feel fear for yourself or for your child?

Well, I was honestly from day one. I mean, from the minute I was, I found out I was pregnant, I had fear. I didn't know this man, so I didn't know what he was capable of. When I was pregnant, he started sending me text messages, alluding that he had severe mental issues, including PTSD. He said that he had tried to commit suicide before and that he was in a cult until he was about 23 called the Moonies, that he suffered extensive trauma and brainwashing, and that he was manipulated. And it took him years of intensive therapy to trust people again.

And, you know, he was just telling me all these things, which at the time I thought he was just trying to scare me, and I, you know, I didn't even know if this was true. Like it sounded so insane to me that this could even be a true statement.

Right, because he told you that in an attempt to get you to abort the pregnancy, right?

Ali: 27.24

Correct, he wanted me to not have it, have the baby. So, he was giving me, you know, what I now know to be true insights. He said that autism ran in his family. He said that, you know, obviously his mental health. He said that he was moving to China. I mean, I just had no idea, you know, obviously what was real and what was not until I Googled it. And I actually found some extensive articles about him and the cult. And, you know, his mother, I think, was quoted in it. And I realized that it really was true.

Yeah. But at this point, I mean-

Ali: 27.24

Yeah, I mean, at this point, I was already pregnant.

So, in your mind, there was really only one option for you at that time.

Ali: 28.35

Yeah. I mean, like I said, I was already pregnant.

So, we're moving into a part that's hard to talk about. Things started ramping up in terms of his vitriol toward you, his negativity and his delusional behavior maybe? When would you say that that really began?

Ali: 29.11

I would say from the beginning. I mean, I think it's pretty delusional for someone to try to hurt a woman who's pregnant verbally and constantly harass me via text and insult me. And just, you know, I felt like that was abusive right there. And to the point where I had to block his phone number because it wasn't good for my health. And then, you know, I just knew that something wasn't normal, and after Grey was born and he was here, he's here. Like we have to move forward. You have to figure out a way to move forward and he could never move forward.

He would still bring up the past of why he's so angry and, you know, kids deserve better than this and that we should never bring a child into a broken home. And that, you know, this is not the life that he wanted. This is not the life that Greyson deserves. And just all of this, you know, narcissistic behavior where he was up here, I was down here. And which, you know, was so false to me because I grew up in a divorced home. And I know that it is pretty common nowadays to have a divorced home or a separated home or a two-family home or even a same-sex home or just a very unconventional family. So, it didn't make any sense to me.

And he definitely displayed a level of cruelty throughout your entire relationship with him, but sure, towards the end of Greyson’s life, when Greyson was four, he still couldn't get over his anger. And he started to become unhinged.

Ali: 30.50

Yep. Putting it mildly. Although, you know, I think that his psychopathic tendencies were always there. He always caused me strife.

And it probably didn't help being very isolated during COVID, I imagine.

Yeah, true. But we all were, and not everyone murders their child, but yes.

Of course not. But someone who is already at a high level of insanity, I don't know the right terminology, but so-

It exacerbated, I'm sure, whatever mental issues he had.

That's a good way to put it.

Chapter 6: Alarming and Erratic Behavior that Led to Greyson’s Death

So, now we're moving into January and February. These months, he finds out you're dating someone, and things start to get very scary on your end.

Yeah, it definitely escalated throughout Greyson's life; there were some instances that were very scary and, you know, maybe not dangerous, but not normal. I'm not going to go into details now, but you know, like he made a big thing- He once honked outside my house and called the police on himself to pick up Greyson, which they ended up making him go away. He caused a big riff at his school. I mean, it's just really unusual behavior.

That definitely was alarming.

Yes, not normal. And then towards, Greyson's final few months, his behaviors were just even more erratic. I believed that I was being, I thought I was either being followed or tracked or that he hired like a PI,

Right, because he once mentioned that you were out late one night and you were at my house till like 10.30.

Yeah, it was your son's birthday party, and he texted the next morning. You were probably out late last night, so if you want me to take Grey today, so you can sleep. Right. I can, and I remember thinking, how did he know what time we got home? I mean, we were at your house. Grey was playing with children. It was 10 o'clock, which was late for Grey, but I wouldn't quite say that's late for me. And I just thought that was very odd.

He had so much fun too. The kids were dancing and playing.

There were multiple things where he said something, and I was just like, how did he know where I was? And I would even ask Greyson sometimes, like, did you tell daddy we went to so-and-so? And he would say no. And I'd be like, okay, and just think nothing of it. But just thought it was very odd. And it didn't leave me. I always had it in the back of my mind.

Chapter 7: The Impact of Coercive Control

And throughout this period of time, I'm sorry, throughout this period of time, you are reaching out and trying to get help. Correct?

Oh, of course. I mean, I again would contact my lawyer and, you know, tell her, or keep her in the loop of everything that was going on and you know, how the behaviors were escalating, whether it be, he literally didn't pay for school. He wouldn't pay for camp. But he also was stalking me. He started creating fake social media accounts and contacting me as someone else. He started contacting my boyfriend at the time and pretending that he was someone looking to hire him. And he was having his friends contact my boyfriend. And he was doing credit checks on everyone in my family and background checks and just really unusual behavior. I mean to the point where, like, I just felt like I was being watched and stalked and harassed. And, of course, the text messages and whatnot were just getting uglier and meaner. They were always pretty ugly and mean, but they were just getting elevated to another level of ugly and mean. And I will say that during the entire course of Greyson's life, anything that John would say always sounded a bit delusional, meaning I always felt like he lived in his own reality if that makes sense. Like his version, the way he saw things was not accurate in any way. And it wasn't reality. It was his version of an altered state of reality.

Right. I remember you saying that he would say things like, well, maybe we'll end up in a house together with a picket fence and...

Well, I mean, he would text me, you know, I hate you. You're disgusting. You're a pig. You're this. You're that. Greyson deserves better. How could you bring Greyson into this dysfunctional life that you live, and you're a fraud, and you're a liar, and you lied to get pregnant, and you this, you that, you know, and then five minutes later, you're beautiful? Let's get married. Let's take Greyson to Hawaii; let's live together. I mean, literally on the same day to go to a high and a low like that, I knew I was not, again, not normal. And when I say not normal, I mean, mentally, he was unstable. And that is just something that I knew from the get-go because mentally stable people don't do or say the things that he did and that he did. He once just started kidnapping Greyson's belongings. Every time I'd send him to his house for the weekend or night or whatever it was, whatever clothes or things that he was wearing or had with him, he wouldn't give back. And then I would say something like, can I get that back? Can I get his clothes? Can I get his shoes? All his shoes were gone. And he's like, well, he's like, why don't you take the child support money that I give you and buy him more stuff? And I just remember thinking, what kind of comment is that? Who is hijacking a kid's shoes just to prove a point? Then, one day, when he came to pick up Grey, he brought a bag of Grey's stuff and threw each item on my lawn in front of Grey. Here you go. Do you want your things back? And he would like throw it one by one, go get it. Go get it, you pig. I mean, it was just really nuts and I'd be like, oh, that's really great to do in front of your child. And then he would literally say, well, you should have thought of that before you lied to get pregnant. And this was when Greyson was about three. I mean, He was here already.

Wow, I don't think I've ever heard that story. I'm so sorry that that happened.

Yeah, I mean, I just wanted his shoes. Like it shouldn't be that difficult to get shoes.

So, you felt frightened, and you felt that things were...

I didn't even know what to do at this point. I was just relying on my lawyer to sort of, you know, butt in and say what we can do here because no parent should live like this. This wasn't a contentious divorce. This wasn't a breakup. This wasn't like he was bitter that, you know, we split up, and he doesn't wanna break up or whatnot. We never were together. And I gave him the opportunity to see if he wanted to be a family. He didn't. But he never voiced anything else. So, I just never really understood where this was all coming from or not even where it was coming from because he would just say that this was not what he wanted. And I guess he was angry, but I didn't understand what the end goal was. At some point, was he just waiting until Grey was 18 to stop, or was he like, what would? What did he really want? I still don't know what the answer is to that.

Well, we do know that he constantly stated that his goal was to make you miserable.

Yes.

And that seemed to be an overriding theme in your co-parenting.

Yes, but, you know, as much as I hated it, I was like, you know what? I have this beautiful child, and no matter how upsetting John made me, I just looked at Grey, and it just sort of made it all better.

Yes, because Grey was a joy. So, I remember the day that Grey was missing; you called me. I was on my way home from a trip, and you said Grey was missing. And I remember saying to you that John is probably just trying to upset you and that things like this don't happen. Things like this don't happen. He's going to be fine. And you said his car is there because you had gone several times. I don't want you to have to go through the entire day, but when did you first (I already know.) When did you find out that John had murdered our sweet, sweet boy?

Crazy enough, that day was just me running around like a mad woman trying to find my child, and I feel like it shouldn't have been that difficult to get help or police involved, but I tried to get a few wellness checks and tried to go to the apartment. He lived in a gated community, so I couldn't go to the door. I had to get the police involved, and they went out five times, and they just said we can't go out another time. The child was just with his father. Which, at this point, it was my parenting time, you know, so I didn't understand why no one was actually putting an amber alert out or saying, okay. Actually, these are two missing people, not just Greyson, but John is missing too. No one had seen either of them in two days. He did not show up for school Greyson. He wasn't called in. I called his teachers. Nobody called him out sick. So at this point, there were two missing people and the police just would not step in because they said this is family court and that you need to do certain things. You have to get an emergency pickup order or this, that, and the other. And I was like, this is crazy. My child is missing. John is missing. Right. I told them that I believed John could have killed himself, hurt themselves, or done something. I had John's family call them; they called on their own accord, the Fort Lauderdale police stating, they believed their brother may have killed himself and there's a toddler stranded in the apartment. And they still wouldn't go in. They said, well, why do you feel that way? And, you know, one of the sisters said that it was just the feeling that she had. They hadn't been able to reach or contact John in a few days. And, you know, the circumstances obviously of that day. And they said, well, a feeling isn't enough. It's a liability. Which to me is just insane. And then, as you know, we ended up hiring a locksmith to break down the door and sort of, you know, coordinating with the landlord who lived out of state and the Fort Lauderdale police to finally go and break down that door, which you paid for. And- Because we had to find out. I mean, I had to do something. I just don't understand where there was no sense of urgency to understand what was going on. And we were just sitting in my apartment. I was sitting there just not even knowing what was happening or what to think. I remember then I started driving over to the apartment because they said, okay, meet us down there, you know, and then I got a phone call from the neighbor stating that maybe it's a good idea if I don't come. And I didn't really understand why, but I was like, okay, well, maybe I won't, you know.

Right, because she said it might look like a custody battle problem.

Ali: 43.40

Right, something along those lines. And honestly, I was just scared and I live about 25 minutes away. So, I was like, all right, fine, I won't come. Text me when they're there, whatnot. I got a text from the neighbor stating that the locksmith and the police had just shown up. Right. And this was about, give or take, around 11 p.m. It was late at night already. And I was just waiting. I was just waiting and waiting and texting. What's going on? Are they there? What did they answer? What happened? Yeah. A million texts go by. No reply. And then I would call the neighbor, and there was no answer. And at this point, I was just thinking, why wouldn't someone get back to you? And, of course, I just sort of went into this mode where I was lying in my closet. I don't know why. Maybe I just felt safer on the floor of my closet and waiting, just waiting and waiting. Like, just in a... I don't even know what state I was in, but I’m sort of in shock, I guess. Yeah. And then I remembered that my phone rang, and Jared picked it up.

It was the police, and they asked if we were home. And this is probably like three or four in the morning at this point. Yeah. And he's like, yes, but they had an old address of mine, and they were at, they actually showed up to an old place that I lived. And so, you know, he gave them our correct address, and about an hour or two later, I think it was around almost 5 a.m. at this point. The police knocked on my door, and in came the detective, um, a social worker, a priest, and I just knew my life was forever over. It was all just a blur from there on. I was in shock, and I just didn't really believe this could happen. This could happen to an innocent little baby.

Chapter 8: Loss and Grief– The Aftermath

But it did, and it does. And I think that's what's really important for people to know that this does happen. And I've met other parents as this happened too. And it's not as one-off as everyone thinks. Things need to change in our world, not even just in the United States, but the family court has some serious flaws, and the fact that I couldn't get the police to help me. And the fact that, you know, my, my injunction was denied. When I tried to get a restraining order, stating that, you know, all the, you know, because I did get some text messages that were very alarming about me getting decapitated and, you know, you know, I tried to, to be proactive ahead of time. And, you know, so this wouldn't happen. And.

No, it's like they didn't believe me, or they don't see this type of abuse as being abused. And it's like they wait for the worst to happen before they actually make a change. And it has to change because we have to be able to stop this before it gets to the point of no return.

Right. And did you feel that you were often dismissed as just a crazy mom?

I mean, I know other parents do. I didn’t get the opportunity to get in front of a judge, and I never got the opportunity to do more because no one really took it seriously. Four years of behavioral patterns were red flags that could have changed our custody arrangement, gotten John the mental help that he needed, and changed the whole trajectory of our relationship.

Right. And it's important that you are saying all of this because I know for myself, I had no idea that what he was doing was a form of abuse. Gaslighting and coercive control. These were sort of new ideas in my world.

Right. And me, too. I mean, I never heard of coercive control prior to it happening. I knew that he was narcissistic, and I was actually reading a book called Co-parenting with a Narcissist. Yeah. But, you know, now, after the fact, when it was introduced to me, I mean, clearly, every red flag was there for coercive control. And, you know, when I've talked to, you know, professionals, you know, after the after Greyson's death, they're all aware of the that's called the power of wheel or wheel of power or something along those lines where that's how you gauge when an individual is trying to gain all that control over you. So, he was doing that by stalking me. He was doing this by tracking my car. He was doing that by using Greyson as a pawn. He was doing that by controlling my finances by not paying for things. He was doing that by insulting me and harassing me. He was, I mean, in all of these ways; he was using that as control. Or, and so that it wasn't just me getting what I wanted. He needed to be able to have the entitlement.

Right. And I think that this is so powerful because you didn't have this information before. Had you had this information, you might...

If I knew coercive control was a thing, if I knew all of these were things, I would have been like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. I mean, obviously, the level of crazy that I endured for four years was not a normal, like, co-parenting existence. I mean, I knew other people, their parents have, you know, co-parenting issues that probably stem from divorce bitterness or breaking up or whatnot, but not to the level of insanity that John had as we didn't have that experience together. So, I just never, I never understood.

So, what was the support system like for you? After Greyson's death, were there any services provided to you that helped you?

Well, I mean, obviously, I see a grief counselor at least weekly just to help. I feel like everyone's like, oh, is it helping? And I'll say nothing will ever help. I always say like, I may be, you may see me here, I'm sitting here, but I died that day. The version of Ali that existed before is not here. You know, I may still smile at times or laugh at a funny show, but I’m hollow , and I cry in between, and I don't sleep at night. My anxiety level is through the roof. So, you know, I basically just have to learn how to live as a new person with all of this trauma and figure out how to go on because I still have bills to pay, and I still have to wake up every day. And I have people reaching out to me that literally say, how do you do it? Maybe they're going through something similar, and they don't have the motivation to wake up. And I was like, well, what is the alternative, is me staying in bed and dying or killing myself? But in the end, that means John wins.

Chapter 9: Advocacy and Greyson’s Choice

And I will do everything in my power to make sure that he's already taken my son, he's already taken me, that he can't win anymore. He can't have any more power. And I just try to remember that. And I try to do things for Greyson. And when I travel or do things, I imagine Greyson being there. And I imagine holding his hand and what he would say or what he would want to do. And I do those things for him.

That's a question I get often: how does she get out of bed? How does she live life?

It's hard, and some days I don't get out of bed. Some days, I just stay there.

Yeah. And I think that every day that you get out of bed and do something productive like this that adds good to the world is a win. And it's something from Greyson's memory.

I know that right after his death, I had a great support system with other protective parents who wanted to see these types of changes occur not just in Florida but in general, in family court. And everyone was so instrumental in making change that we were able to get a new law drafted, which actually went through House and Senate twice. And then the second time around, It did get passed, and Greyson's Law went into effect in 2023, which now helps make it easier for a judge to step in when one parent is harming another parent.

Right, and I mean, it's incredible that you were able to dust yourself off and think, make something good from this horrific thing that happened.

Well, it was helpful in a way. I was reading the book about grief that said the sixth phase of grief is finding meaning and purpose. And I just, you know, the outpour of questions that people came to me with, and everyone had advice or wanted to get advice. And I am, you know, I started the foundation, Greyson's Choice because I wanted everyone to know what happened. I want everyone to know how I was wronged, how Greyson was wronged, and all of the injustices that occurred, you know, from lawyers, from judges, from police officers, from DCF and Child Protective Services. I mean, the level of injustice was just never-ending. And I wanted everyone to hear this story because it was shocking to me that I couldn't get the help that I needed, that even if Greyson were still alive, I still would be living a tormented life with John as he was.

Chapter 10: Upcoming Projects and Fundraising

Yes. But Greyson's Choice is now a nonprofit 501c3. We had our first fundraiser this past February called Bubbles and Brunch. Which was so fun. It was. We were able to raise a lot of money, and you know, I always say like I don't know how to help all of these amazing parents that reach out to me who are scared, who are sad, who are going through similar experiences or other, you know crazy experiences and you know, I have no advice other. I say, take your kid and run away because there will be no one here. There will be nothing to protect you. And I don't have advice. So, the only thing that I can think of to help all these people is to be a resource. And hence this podcast. I'm hoping over the course of, you know, the next few months to start rolling out some very insightful conversations with different experts and people in their different fields, from doctors and law firms and counselors and therapists and just parents that have their own experiences to share. I'm hoping that you know it will definitely be helpful for our listeners to get information that will be useful for them or at least just to learn more and educate them.

Can you explain really quickly about what Greyson's law adds or changes to the Florida law?

Well, in layman's terms, because it's, you know, there's a lot of mumbo jumbo, but so part of my issue was that they said, you know, that John was harming me, right? Um, and that he was, he wasn't harming the child, although I don't know if he was or not because I never saw them. So basically, Greyson's law now introduces that if one parent is harming the other parent or threatening or threatening, or you believe that you are or believe to be in imminent danger, which is big because before that didn't exist, then a judge can look at the facts and step in and remove the child from, from the, from the home or at least to make an informed decision. You know, before that, like I said, they were only looking at like, was were they hurting the child? You know, but I always say I'm like, if a human being is hurting another human being, who does it matter where they're hurting? They're not fit. They're not fit to be a parent. They are not if you don't live a life hurting people and then, you know, are OK with a toddler, you know, it's like I was people, you know, say. So, Hitler was a father, you know, he'd be a great dad because he was only killing the Jews. But I'm sure I'm sure he was. Yeah, I'm sure he's a really great dad. And I think that's such commonsense law reform. It's very common sense to me. For example, if someone is breaking the law or causing harm, then someone needs to step in. And it makes me sick to my stomach that I was the guinea pig and Greyson had to pay the price. And this common sense didn't exist. It's mind-boggling that we couldn't get the help we needed.

Well, it's pretty incredible that through your grief, to go to Tallahassee and get this law passed. And it was not an easy fix. You had a draft that did not pass the first year.

No, there was a lot of language in the first draft about coercive control that didn't make it through. And we had to cut a lot out the second time around, which is still something that I feel passionate about, about getting amended back in, or, you know, just, I just want more to shed light on the topic, of course of control because it is so common in ways that people might not even realize. And it's really important to educate, especially lawyers, doctors, and judges, so that they recognize that this is abuse. I may not, I didn't have physical scars yet, but I was tormented daily.

I would say that it was a great day for your advocacy work when the bill passed. And it didn't just pass through the majority; it passed unanimously. Unanimous with a Republican, Democratic Congress. I mean, that is a huge win.

Yeah, we had, it was obviously bipartisan, unanimous, and almost like every, every Senator or House representative wanted to be a co-sponsor of the bill because everyone just felt like it was just so important that it had to pass. Again, it's not where I would want it fully, but it does show a step in the right direction and at least makes people, you know, politicians aware and legislature aware these things are going on and this need, we need to make changes. There are still so many changes that need to be made, and I can't do it alone. And I'm hoping to, you know, I'm hoping that through Greyson's Choice, through this podcast, you know, maybe, you know, we can shed some more light because I hear so many stories. I went to Washington, D.C. to try to get conversations about getting, you know, child safety laws passed federally, which is, we do have Kayden's Law. And I met all of these people that some were victims and some were other parents, you know, where they were accused of parental alienation and their child was court ordered to go to this camp, a reunification camp because they feel like one parent was brainwashing the other parent. And the stories I heard were just endlessly sad and must be heard.

So are there any upcoming projects or initiatives that you're excited about in your advocacy work?

Well, I'm excited to see where this podcast goes because, obviously, I'll probably learn a lot more. And through my conversations on the people that I meet with and talk with, or that we meet with and talk with, that, you know, will drive some more ideas and maybe more connections and, you know, more ways to get the word out.

Yeah. And hopefully, another fantastic fundraiser for Greyson’s Choice this year.

I mean, obviously, you know, we'll rely on donations to, you know, keep it going for, um, to get, you know, more to keep this podcast going, to keep us going.

And advocacy work is never fully finished. There's going to always be more work we can do.

No, there's always, there's always more to be done, especially in family court. It is so broken that it is going; I mean, it's not even going to happen in my lifetime.

Yes. But you are doing wonderful things in honor of our Greyson.

Well, I, I'm trying. I would trade places with anyone and gladly be at home watching cartoons with him. But unfortunately, this is my new norm.

And I'm lucky to call you a friend because you amaze and inspire me every day.

Well, thank you. And I will say to everyone that's listening that I probably wouldn't be here today if it weren't for this girl because I, you know, support is really what you do need to, to get up. Especially, you know, on the initial days right after, you know, something traumatic happens, you know, and of course, you know, my, my friends, my family, my boyfriend, my doctors, my therapist, they all play their own role. But it takes a village ,and you know, it's never something that I'm going to get over or be over with. Or again, I just have to figure out how I can go on and live the rest of my life, you know.

Well, I'll be here watching. Well, I can't wait to see what you do next. And I think the podcast is going to be fabulous.

Well, thank you. Do you have any other any other questions that you think our listeners would want to know about their host?

What's your favorite TV show right now?

Oh goodness? I will say I've been watching General Hospital since I was six years old. We just watched ten seasons of the blacklist, and I just watched the Bear. I just watched a show called Fallout that your brother recommended. I don't really have a favorite, but you know, I try to keep up.

Well, it is interesting that you have suffered more than anyone else I know, yet your light still shines so bright, and you're still one of the most fun people to be around. He didn't steal your soul. You are still there. You are still you. You are still the girl I met a long. Should I say the number of years? A long time ago.

So well, thank you all for listening. If you have any questions for Erin Cooper or me, please feel free to email Ali@greysonschoice.org and I will hopefully get back to you as soon as possible, and maybe your questions will be aired live on our podcast. If you have any guest suggestions that you would like, I will be taking those as well, so please contact me and let me know who you want to hear from. Alright, thank you for doing this and thank you for listening. Until next time.

Episode 1: Show Notes

This is your go-to Podcast, where we help parents navigate the complexities of family life. Hosted by Ali Kessler of Greyson’s Choice, we’ll cover everything from understanding domestic violence to navigating the legal system, finding the right therapists, life hacks, family law, mental health, custody battles, and how to protect children in dangerous situations.

Episode 1: Meet Your Host, Ali Kessler

In this episode:

• Chapter 1: Introduction and Ali’s Life Before Motherhood

• Chapter 2: Ali Moves to NYC

• Chapter 3: Ali’s Pregnancy & Decision to Have a Baby

• Chapter 4: Welcome to the World, Greyson Kessler & Co-Parenting Challenges

• Chapter 5: Escalating Negative Behaviors from Greyson’s Father

• Chapter 6: Alarming and Erratic Behavior that Led to Greyson’s Death

• Chapter 7: The Impact of Coercive Control

• Chapter 8: Loss and Grief– The Aftermath

• Chapter 9: Advocacy and Greyson’s Choice

• Chapter 10: Upcoming Projects and Fundraising

About Ali Kessler

Contact Ali:

Email

LinkedIn

Website