This episode is an interview with my husband, Jake, about his path from well-founded skepticism of Pathological Demand Avoidance to fully changing his parenting to support our two PDA sons, and how that has helped all three of them.

This conversation is for parents who aren't sure about PDA, their partners who are, and everyone who has wondered what it actually looks like to shift the paradigm as the "non-lead" parent. Jake talks about the enforcer role he played, dreading coming home from work, what brought him to shift his perspective, and how he took action to change his relationships with his sons.

Key Takeaways

• Why Non-Lead Parents Lag and Why That Is Not a Deficiency | 00:10:01 Jake explains that his skepticism about pathological demand avoidance came from the same place as his desire to be a good father: wanting his son to be okay long after he was gone. He names the specific experience of not being present enough during the day to witness what Casey was witnessing, the cognitive dissonance of a child who could race through Halloween trick-or-treating and then suddenly be unable to walk, and the ease with which behaviors that look manipulative can be written off as such. He is clear that lagging does not make a parent deficient. It makes them human.

• What the Enforcer Role Actually Felt Like | 00:24:12 Jake describes placing himself in the role of the disciplinarian and enforcer when Cooper was young, trying strict and punitive approaches consistently enough to know they were not working. He reflects on the moments when Cooper would submit, and how even those felt awful because he was a grown adult overpowering a four-year-old. He names the specific appeal of the pathological demand avoidance approach as not just intellectual but personal: he did not want to be that kind of dad, and the relational damage it was doing to his connection with Cooper was undeniable.

• Dreading 5PM and the Second Arrow | 00:43:44 Jake describes a period when he went from counting down the hours to the end of the workday to dreading them, knowing he was walking back into a home where the kids were dysregulated, Casey was stretched to her limit, and there was no joy. He names the second arrow clearly: feeling like a dad who dreads his own family, and then feeling guilty for that. He offers this not as a confession but as something he suspects many non-lead parents are sitting with quietly.

• The Trampoline Commitment and What It Built | 00:44:23 Jake shares a concrete example of how he found a way into connection with Cooper during burnout: committing to saying yes every time Cooper asked to go on the trampoline, even though the activity involved Cooper lying there while Jake jumped for twenty minutes. He frames it honestly as work, not fun fatherhood. But he also describes how, when his legs gave out and he lay down next to his son and started pointing at clouds, the small moments of connection began to accumulate. This type of commitment, he says, may be available to other parents who work full days and only have evenings.

• Vulnerability With Other Dads and the Masculinity Frame | 00:29:46 Jake reflects on coaching Cooper's tackle football team and the specific difficulty of needing other coaches to understand that Cooper's meltdowns were not a measure of his commitment or character, while knowing that a full explanation of Pathological Demand Avoidance would not land. He names the fear of judgment, and the discomfort of demonstrating vulnerability in a context that did not historically make space for it. He frames the masculine enforcer archetype as a stereotype that most men do not actually identify with but feel bound by because breaking it is a risk.

Relevant Resources

Understanding PDA — Free class with the foundational context that Jake describes eventually coming to through lived experience

Burnout — Free class relevant to the burnout phases with both Cooper and William that Jake discusses throughout

Paradigm Shift Program — Our signature program where Jake hosts three live sessions specifically for non-lead parents