If What Lights You Up were simply an extremely practical guide to job hunting, I wouldn't have been interested in a conversation with the author, Mary Olson-Menzel.

Not that job hunting isn't an important topic — it clearly is, especially if you're out of a job or in one that's making you miserable.

It's just that I wouldn't be interested in having that convo, and so I'd skip it.

That said, What Lights You Up is in fact an extremely practical guide to job hunting.

What piqued my interest was the idea that our careers can be powered by joy, self-expression, and contribution rather than opportunism, random chance, or calculated self-interest.

What if we lived in a world where people were allowed — hell, encouraged — to break free from unfulfilling work and discover their passions? What might change if that were an unalienable right?

But this conversation isn't just about an inspiring thought. It's also an extremely practical guide to job hunting (have I already mentioned that?) that's powered by the principle that you can use work as a means to growing your best self and giving that self to the world.

We talk about a tool to help you figure out what lights you up: the "Light Log."

Mary shares with me a new (for me) way of networking, with intention and authenticity.

She also offers some exercises for job-seekers, and coaches me through the 3 P's of job searching (which are also the 3 P's of prospecting, so I was taking notes!).

If you want to make a difference while making a living, this conversation is for you.

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What Lights You Up?

My guest today wrote a book called What Lights You Up that immediately jumped onto the USA Today bestseller list. That's not surprising because it's a book for job seekers how to get the job that you want. But it's way more than that. And if it was only about job seeking, I wouldn't have been interested because I'm basically unemployable. I have to work for myself. But it really is about the energy of

discovering what really makes you happy, what work you are born to do, what type of activities, what purpose with what sorts of people. And that's really important in the world right now. I've worked with a lot of organizations and it's rare to find an organization where even half of the people are just excited about coming to work and contributing and making that a big part of their lives. Most people I know in large organizations

are just clocking time. It's sad, but it's true and it's sad for the organization because they're not getting the full input of talent and excitement and creativity and energy that they could be getting from their people. But I don't mourn for corporations. I really mourn for people who are spending eight hours, 10 hours a day, 12 hours a day, sometimes with commutes doing things that don't light them up.

The world needs people who are on fire. Because we're in a mess and if people are just sort of doing business as usual just to pay the bills, we're not going to get out of that mess. So our conversation actually turned quite a bit to me as a solopreneur, as a practice owner around how do I do work that lights me up when again, there's always considerations of, I got to pay the bills.

This seems to be a pretty easy avenue for getting some business. And that one seems hard. How do I combine my passion for social justice, for animal welfare, for climate sanity with making a living and feeding all my ego needs and all that? So it's a wonderful conversation. I got a lot out of it. I hope you will get a lot out of it, too, both if you're a job seeker looking for that perfect fit or if.

You're just looking for clients. So without further ado.

Mary Olson Menzel, welcome to the Plant Yourself podcast.

It is so nice to be here. Thank you for having me.

A pleasure, a pleasure. I'm going to try not to make this all about me, but it's going to be hard because you've written a book that I've been taking lots of notes and it's like, this is useful. This is really helpful. This is a great way to think about it. Before we get into it, going to introduce yourself and say a little bit about what you do.

Sure, sure. So thank you again for having me. I am an executive coach. I've been in business, recruiting, coaching, and leadership work for over 30 years.

and I have my own firm that I have in partnership with an amazing partner. And we are really truly about helping people lift up their leadership so that they can be better leaders. And we call it humane leadership, humane leaders so that they're actually getting the most out of their people by inspiring them.

So I wrote a little book that just came out on the USA Today bestseller list and it is called What Lights You Up? And that has been a passion project of mine to help people find truly what lights them up but also to figure out where they want to go next in their jobs.

And it kind of makes sense as a first step. If you're asking people to be humane leaders, to be inspiring, it's probably a good idea that they're doing stuff they want to do where they want to do it.

Yes, yes, because that, if you're happy in your job, that spills out to everyone around you, including your teens.

Mm Yeah, I was interviewing someone a while back, Simi Rayat, who wrote a book called Productivity Joy. And her question to people is, are you a joy to be around? Right.

Right? I mean, don't we want to be around people who are a joy to be around? Yeah.

Yeah. And so what you're what you're what the book is saying is that it's first of all, there's an assumption that it's possible to find something that lights you up. And when I look at like my history of observing people in workplaces.

That's it's pretty rare. Like I would say the base rate for me is like, you know, maybe seven, 10, 15 percent overall are people who are like, yes, I would work if I didn't need the money. And you're saying this is attainable.

Exactly, but you're absolutely right. I mean, in all of your years of experience and my years in corporate America and then also consulting, coaching people, in the book I say that I'd give the number 70 % of people in their workplace are not lit up, right? So we're about on the same page of people who would work.

if they didn't need the money, right? But who, how can you get to being lit up, right? And when you see a person who's lit up like that, you know it, right? I mean, you can just feel it in the room that they're in.

Mm-hmm.

So when you went about writing up a book on what lights you up, you have sort of a 70 percent and you have a 30 percent and you also have your vast years of experience of coaching people, of helping them prepare themselves to find a position that lights them up. Did you do any sort of like let's let's look at the differences between the 70 percent and the 30 percent? Like how did you decide what's true here?

Well, you know, speaking to a doctor, right? The research that I did in my book was all hands-on, right, from my 30 years of experience. Because what I saw through all the years, whether it was in corporate, in tech, in consulting, that it was the people who were lit up from inside were the ones who got the job offers. They were also the ones who got promoted more quickly.

And by the way, they have this amazing byproduct of being much happier in their lives. And when you're happier in your work and your life, you actually typically are healthier too. So this is not about just bringing your light to the workforce, but it's also about how does this spill into all the areas of your life so that we can all make the world a better place too.

Hmm. I've got to ask, have you gotten media training because you're so succinct? like, like, I usually get to I usually ask a question. I could sit back. I can like take a shower and you're like coming out of these very succinct, clear things. And I'm like, it's my turn again.

thank you.

Thank you so much. mean, first of all, my first job out of college, I was a television reporter.

Uh-huh.

So that might help. then throughout this book journey, I was introduced to an amazing woman by the name of Lynn Smith. And, you know, we were introduced by a lawyer friend of ours, Matt Savare. And he literally said, I think you two are going to love each other. And we said, you know what, let's just help each other in any way that we can. And so when I was going on my, on my interview with NBC national news,

Hmm.

Lynn said, let's work together for an hour and let's just make sure that you're going to nail it. So I had the background and I had a little help from my friend Lynn Smith who's pretty amazing.

That's awesome. That's awesome. As I said, I'm not used to working this hard. can you you you ramble a little? So so one of the one of the obstacles, I think that a lot of people have to resistance to the idea they could get a job that lights them up is that they didn't see it in their family of origin.

Sorry. I'm gonna push you.

And there was a valorization of, you know, Dad hated his job, but he went in every day. He worked his butt off. He took care of us, you know, almost like I owe it to the past to keep like that's what it means to be a husband, to be a man, to be a provider in, you know, for men and then for obviously for a lot of women. This idea like, well, the workplace isn't a very friendly place in general. So how do you help people who

Yeah.

who are immediate and maybe this isn't the book for them, but for folks who are listening to this, who might immediately feel like, that would be great.

Yeah, you know, mean, a lot of people feel lost, right? And so this book is for them because I, you know, if you open up into the first couple of chapters in my book.

I talk about my parents, right? And I did, I'm determined to break that cycle. So my dad was a really, really successful advertising guy doing what he loved. And my mom was an artist and a dancer. So creativity was left and right in my house. And at one point, my grandfather asked my dad to take over the family business.

So he had to step out of the advertising world that truly lit him up and step into more of an operations role and run the family business. And so I witnessed as a child, I didn't know what it was then. It took me a while to be able to articulate it, but I witnessed as a child my dad's light go out.

or at least dim, right? Because he took on the responsibility of the family business out of a deep responsibility for his family and for, you know, us, right? And then they, you know, he had to ask my mom to come help at the family business at one point. So she had to give up her dancing and her art and everything that lit her up. And so I witnessed it as a child. And I remember saying to my dad, as I was going off to college,

I don't want this to happen to anyone. I don't want people to be in jobs that don't at least give them some joy, right? And no job is perfect. I mean, I always say and in the book I say this too, follow the 80-20 rule, right? If 80 % of the time you're happy and fulfilled by what you're doing, then you're winning, right? I mean, we all have, you know, I have a paperwork a mile high over here that I have to do that

Mm.

doesn't light me up. But talking to you lights me up. So you know I think that there's a way to break the cycle first of all to answer you know the question for those people but also

Uh-huh.

you deserve to be happy, right? And many of us, especially our generation, we went into professions maybe because we thought we should. I know a lot of people in finance who went into finance because they knew they'd make a lot of money, right? And maybe could retire early. Or people that went into law or anything else, right? Healthcare, because their parents said, you should be a lawyer, you should be a doctor, right?

Mm-hmm.

Truly, truly.

the shoulds have to kind of be wiped away and you're a perfect example, right? In how you've managed your kids and parented your kids because you've let them do what lights them up. You didn't push them into a should situation, but many people still get pushed. So I'm kind of like trying to say, let's break free of this. Let's tap into what it is that you're doing out of that deep sense of responsibility. Yes, you have to keep the lights

on in your house, but it is imperative to keep those lights on in your heart too. So how can you get to that intersection that is, you know, my favorite Japanese word, ikigai, which is the intersection between what your natural gifts are, what you can get paid to do, what the world needs, and what your purpose is.

Yeah, I love a good Venn diagram. That one's a good one in the book. And also I have to thank you for giving me the new tagline for my podcast. More fun than paperwork. much more fun than paperwork.

Exactly.

I love it, right? Much more fun than paperwork, for sure.

So what do you tell people who their light has been so dim or the obligations on it have been so heavy that they don't know where to start? Right. Like in some sense, you're correct. I've been a good example of, you know, letting my kids first of all, my kids weren't going to listen to me if I like.

You know, there wasn't there wasn't any winning of, you know, had I tried to enforce it. So I just I didn't even my wife and I didn't really bother. But in terms of my own life, like I feel like I am a frustrated performer.

Yeah.

And, you know, here I am in front of a mic, you know, letting that come out to some degree. But I was definitely pushed in certain direct expectational directions. And it was very, very velvet glove. So do I go back to like, like I've seen people like what, you know, what did you want to be when you were 11? Like left fielder for the New York Yankees. How does that help?

How does that help? Right. Well, yes, it does give you a little bit of a clue though that...

Maybe you're a sports fan, right? So let's take that a step further to answer your question. I mean, a lot of people were so bogged down with the responsibilities of whatever our life entails, taking care of elderly parents, raising kids, working to keep the lights on in the house. But truly, I ask people to start simple. Create what I call a light log.

and start paying attention to the moments in your day that light you up.

Right? And I mean, you know, right now, right? I have a really great cup of coffee right here. It's this organic blend that I found on Amazon. And that lights me up, right? That's one thing, a good cup of coffee. You know, it's paying attention. You know, I can look out my window, right? And I have this beautiful, it's fall in the Northeast. I have this beautiful red tree that inspires me every day.

Right. And those things, paying attention to those moments, our conversation, me not having to do paperwork for another hour, you know, those little things all add up. Right. And so, you know, for example, there's a woman that I coached, we went through the light log and we went through another exercise in the book called the three P's. And what we really understood was that her passion and things that she put in her light log was travel.

So we made a list of all the travel related companies in her geographical area and started to say, okay, would this travel related company be somewhere that I could bring my existing skill set and add value? And we ended up getting her job as the chief storyteller at one of the major airlines here in the US.

Mm.

So you start small with the light log and then you follow the exercises in the book and things start to open up and things start to unfold in ways that you could never even imagine. So I'm going to challenge you to do that too.

Hmm.

OK, yeah, I'm picturing, you know, I spent time in southern Africa and getting a desert tour where only certain, you know, Kung tribes were able to live and like.

What they were looking for was the little leaf sticking out of the sand that indicated like here's here's a big juicy root underneath. There's our there's our nutrients. There's our water. Like don't don't ignore the little leaves in our lives. The the nice cup of coffee, the enjoyment of travel. You know, I'm thinking I'm going to go back to my my YouTube history and see like what do I watch when I'm too frazzled or too tired to work?

Yeah, yeah, what are you doing in your, you know, do you have hobbies, right? Do you have a side hustle?

What are those things that are speaking to you? And to your point, I love the analogy about the leaf, right? Because it's just that day by day starting. I mean, it feels so daunting to like think about, OK, I need to find a new job. I need to tap into what lights me up. This feels too hard, right? But when you take it in a pragmatic and intentional type of way by just starting to pay attention and just starting to research a

bit your own life and your own history, it starts to unfold and give you little bit more clarity.

Hmm. So when I'm thinking about what lights me up and what lights people up, I think, you know, a mistake I've made is assuming that everyone's like me, which is, you know, clearly not true. But, you know, so I remember one of my first jobs in a company. It was a boutique change management firm and, you know.

the people who were leading it and I were like, we want to make a difference in the world. We want to bring happiness and joy. And we had a COO who was like, I don't care about any of that stuff. I just want everything to be efficient. like her, her whole like, I don't care. You guys could change. You could start selling cardboard boxes tomorrow. I don't care as long as we're doing it efficiently and well and rationally.

And they're like, OK, so there's there's this just like I love my job, what I do, the skills that I bring, the outcomes that I get on a very basic level. Then there's like me about meaning and global passion and all this. And then there's like there's plenty of places that I could have worked. But I was like, that that office is gross. I don't want to I don't want to be under fluorescent lights.

Yeah.

you know, all day. And then there's the people that you work with. There's people who are just happy to go and be a cashier at a supermarket because they like the cashiers on either side of them. So like how do we begin to parse like what which of those and I'm sure there's other levels I haven't even thought of that really go into the algorithm of lighting us up?

Yes.

Well, it's interesting because you brought up all these different people, right? So we're all different. We're all unique. And only we can answer the question for ourselves about it, you know, what it is that lights us up, what it is that makes us happy at the workplace and in life. Right. And I think, you know, what's interesting is I love the dichotomy of the firm that you worked at because you have these dreamers, right, who are big visionaries change the world. But then you had a very pragmatic CEO who said, wait, hold on, hold on.

I got to bring you guys back to earth for a little while because the trains have to keep running in order to leave the station, right? So we need both types of people so desperately in the workplace and we need to really I believe that it's you know, really important that we respect the people who are pragmatic and the people who are the dreamers and we Partner them with one another so that we can actually get stuff done, right?

Hmm.

Hmm.

Also, I think you brought up a really, really great point in that...

It doesn't matter what you're doing, right? You do not have to be a CEO. You do not have to be a doctor. You do not have to be the top of your game to be joyful in your life or in your career. You know, you go, we've both traveled to third world countries where the most joyful people are people sweeping the floors and doing whatever they're doing. They're singing while they're working.

Hmm.

Right? So it's really tapping into that. It's not saying I have to be the CEO. I have to be this. It is saying, how can I find joy in my day to day life? And how can I do something that aligns with my values and who I am that fills me up every day?

Hmm

that there's a lot of baggage pushing against that philosophy in our culture, isn't there around, you know, what's my unique selling proposition? What can I do better than anyone else in the world? You know, the upper out mentality in a lot of firms. You know, when I was young, I remember Chainsaw Owl and Jack Welch, you know, routinely firing the bottom tier of performers. What does it take for people to feel get

Yes.

permission to just be joyful and happy and contribute in a way that may not be grandiose.

I mean, it's so much an outlook.

Right? It's how you look at life. It's the lens that you look at your life from. You know, we've done so much work. I mean, they do this work now, which I'm so happy about in our kids' schools, about a growth mindset or a fixed mindset. Right? If you have a growth mindset, right, which you know more about than I do, you know, the psychology behind it and what is really, truly happening is you're looking at every day with gratitude. You're looking at everything that happens to you almost

Mmm.

as a gift, right? If you're in a fixed mindset, you're going to stay kind of stuck where you are. But if you're in a growth mindset and you love, you know, and you love sweeping that floor, right? The rest doesn't matter.

And the fact that we do live in this culture right now where our generation especially is, you know, we've been very, very driven for most of our lives. At least I know you and I have. But, you know, it's our kids who are changing that perspective for us. And that's where I say we have so much to learn from the different generations in that these kids that you and I are raising have raised, continue to

Hmm.

are the ones who are saying, wait, I want more out of life. I want to do something with purpose and meaning. And I think we can, you know, take a page from their book and say, wait a second, we can all do that.

Yeah, there's a there's a quote that begins one of the chapters and I'm sort of paraphrasing because I don't remember it exactly, but it's basically to prepare for your tomorrow. The best way to prepare for your tomorrow is to like be impeccable today. That's not that was that that was.

Yeah, it's really just start today, right? I mean, this is the thing. Once again, it's very daunting to think I'm stuck. I need to get to here, right? But when you just start with those small habits every day, I talk a lot and it's not even in the book. It's something that has emerged as one of the media's favorite things that I talk about is the morning power hour, right? Your morning power. We have that, right?

Mm.

with the 100 coaches, we have a Tuesday power hour, but I recommend that clients just take a morning, an hour every morning with their first cup of coffee or their tea and do some networking.

because that network is going to help you thrive too. And I'm kind of pivoting now over to a whole different topic in the book, but it's really important. Once you've tapped into what gives you joy, once you've tapped into what it is that lights you up, how do you get there? That's with intention, but it's also with really, really building your network and growing your network and making it meaningful. And I always say, you know, if your inner light is your superpower, right?

Your network is the superhighway that's going to get you to your next job.

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So this is where I have to be careful not to just become a consulting a free consulting client for you, because when we when we were talking about doing this conversation, I was asking about, this also relevant for freelancers, for consultants who are looking for clients as opposed to job seekers who are looking for salaried positions? And I've got to say my favorite chapter in the book was the how can I help?

chapter because it gave me how like not even the scripts. I have wonderful email scripts. You fill in the blank. But it gave me a language for networking that felt so honors honest, honorable and generous as opposed to the way I'm thinking about networking when I'm kind of in a deficiency mindset like got to get business.

Right, right, because your business development can be intentional and yet organic, right? And I think that it's really interesting. We have to wash away the old, you know.

stigma about networking, right? Networking used to be you would show up in your blue suit at a conference, you'd trade business cards, and there would be no meaning behind it. But the real, the real networking, the powerful networking is the stuff that has meaning. You and I having this conversation, getting to know one another, you know, we'll have another conversation, and we'll ask each other, how can we help each other? Right? And that then starts to spark ideas into

Hmm.

our heads about potential business that we could refer to each other, right? And then it just starts to create a little bit more of like a ricochet, not a ricochet, that's not the right word, a butterfly effect in that now that I know that you are thinking about business development as a consultant, I'm going to be leaning into everybody that I hear who needs what you have to provide.

Uh-huh.

Mm Yeah. And this just triggered another, you know, nature metaphor, which is, know, I've been a gardener for a long time and like the plants in my garden definitely talk to each other all the time. Like they're constantly networking and the trees are networking through the bees. You know, there are.

you know, pheromones that the trees give off that go into the soil that tell certain insects to be attracted there. You the plants that starts getting chomped by a caterpillar will will let other plants nearby know to release more toxins in their leaves. There's a whole network of fungi under the soil that's that's like making sure that everyone everything gets what they need to maintain this huge biodiversity. And I've

I'm of like I'm embarrassed to say this, but I have thought of business development a little bit as a sort of coopetition. But with the with the accent on the Titian, like it is like there's only so much to go around and maybe there's somebody else who's better at it than I am. So I'm diffident or maybe I have to build myself up to appear like I have a bigger stance than I have.

Hmm.

Yeah.

And you're saying just be generous and curious.

Yes, yes. And I mean, I'm telling you, now you will flip your mindset and you will be amazed at what happens. And I think I love these examples of nature that you're bringing up. mean, they're so, so powerful. I think that's your next LinkedIn post, you know, about how nature works together so organically. Right. I mean, truly, truly. Right. That that beautiful red tree out there right now is not competing with the yellow tree. Right. They're both equal.

beautiful and by the way when you can flip your attitude from an attitude of lack to an attitude of abundance right you're going to see amazing results amazing results because I believe that there is enough to go around

I believe too that there's a niche for everyone. What you do is very different than what I do. But we can help each other rise by recognizing the greatness in each other and helping each other from a networking standpoint.

So if I I picture the world embracing this abundance, right, because the way abundance mindset has been promoted a lot is sort of like, it's what poor people don't have. And that's why they're poor.

Nah. Yeah.

Right. Like, but the truth is that the abundant if the abundance mindset comes from people with that's a much that's much more likely to have a positive, you know, just redistributed redistributive effect. But if like if I truly come to the world with it with a abundance mindset, there's a lot of work that I am no longer willing to put up with and a lot of companies that I wouldn't.

like want to touch with a 10 foot pole because they're not promoting values that I care about.

Well, that's exactly it too, right? I mean, you get as you get older and more experienced and more seasoned and, you know, all of that good stuff that you and I are embracing at this time.

you get to be more discerning about what you say yes to as well. Because I have found over and over, over and over, and it's happened to me so many times in my life, I'll hold on to a client that doesn't feel right because of, you know, probably all the right reasons, but it's not the right client for me. And the moment...

Mm-hmm.

that I make that courageous decision to let go of a client that isn't the right fit for our organization, our values. It's like the universe, you know, I mean, I'm not trying to get woo-woo here, but it's like truly the laws of like you were talking about nature. You create space by getting rid of the stuff that doesn't serve you anymore. And all of a sudden more good stuff comes. And truly, I mean,

Mm.

So I had a really hard decision to make a couple years ago. Our firm that I built 13 years ago, another baby of mine that I put out there into the world, right? Was, we were doing both executive search and leadership development and coaching and career coaching.

And what was truly lighting me up was the coaching, the leadership, and helping people move into careers that they loved.

The search side, it wasn't lighting me up anymore. There was a time when I really loved it, but it was also a very lucrative part of the business, so it was very hard for me to give it up. But once I stood in my own truth and gave myself the advice that I give to clients, I phased out recruiting and our coaching business quadrupled in demand and revenue.

Mm.

Uh-huh.

So those tough courageous decisions, when you have that inkling that it's not aligned with your values, pay attention to it.

Hmm. Yeah. For. For about a decade, I was doing marketing strategy from like 2002 to 2012, 2013, and one of the clues that I was in the wrong job was that every morning I'd wake up and I would like repeat a mantra to myself about how great marketing was.

Right. Like, you know, marketing helps people who need each other find each other. Marketing can save the world. Like and I wrote about this stuff and it's all true. But the fact that I kept having to remind myself, you know, it was like water falling on a rock instead of a sponge that that when I that my principal issue with it was that I was just as likely to help someone sell some crap as something valuable.

Yes.

and that most of the techniques I had learned were in essence, you know, manipulations based on human foibles and weakness. So we'd always go with scarcity. Right. Right. We don't we'd always go with, you know, some sort of contextual comparison that may not be relevant. It may not be actual, but it's sort of, it puts this one against that one.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it took me I'm embarrassed a little bit about how long it took me to realize like this is there were parts of it that to me were icky.

Yeah, well, what was your aha moment? How did you pivot out of it?

I didn't. Well, I guess I did, but it was the universe gave me threw me a rope.

I'm

You did.

A person that I admired greatly had written a book that I found extremely important and I had become friends. seven years after that first book came out, he asked if I would help edit his second book. And I was at this point running a digital marketing agency and living in South Africa with the world's worst Internet.

And there was absolutely no there was no strategic value for me in taking huge chunks of my time to help him edit a book. And I said, yes. Because it was more fun than what I was doing. You know, and I remember, huh? Yeah. And so so apparently I did a good enough job that from editor, I became co-author and for co-author, I got my name on the cover and it was the topic was plant based nutrition and health.

Yeah, but it was your lifeline, right? It was your lifeline.

And that allowed me to to take my coaching skills and my marketing skills and apply them to help people become healthier, to help them eat in a way that promoted environmental justice and healing, that that promoted welfare for animals. And honestly, that that that lit me up from like 2012.

You know, the universe is like waving flags and playing trombones in front of me. And it's just, you know, it's a it's a rare moment when I will just stop and open my eyes and really pay attention to what's in front of me.

that's that is exactly it. That's what I talk about in the book is you have to pay attention to those quiet yearnings in your heart. Right. And by the way, you know, you're probably still doing marketing, but your marketing now feels much more genuine and organic because it's something that you're passionate about and that you believe in.

Yeah, yeah. And it's also I've become clear as to what what my marketing, what the energy is of my marketing is going to do in the world, even if it doesn't get the sale.

Yes, and that's more organic, right? Because when you're putting more good stuff out there into the world, that's coming back to you and people are noticing. And people are starting to pay attention. wow, look at what he is putting out there in the world. Look at how he is trying to change his corner of the world by helping people be healthier in both mind, body, and spirit.

Right? So that kind of marketing where it's, you know, and people ask me why I wrote this book. I literally from the most, you know, earnest of places, I wanted to help people.

because we worked with hundreds and hundreds of seasoned executives doing this pivot. And what ended up happening was those executives were so happy and they were so moved by the work we did together that they said, could you help my wife? Could you help my husband? Could you help my son, my daughter, my niece, my nephew? And we couldn't clone ourselves. And so this book, which is based on my 10 step methodology, was my gift to the world.

and really truly saying, for the people who can't, don't have access to us, the people who can't afford us, this is my gift. Because you can get a lot of the teachings of what we do for a lot of money in a book for $25.

Yeah, yeah. And as someone who's read lots and lots of books, I got to say, you know, it's always bugged me that books are sold by the pound instead of by the content. This is worth way more than twenty five dollars.

Well, thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, let's let's talk about the power hour and what it might look like, you know, for for let's say someone like me or for for people who are trying to just, you know, who have are trying to network because they've been told they should network. And now they've had this reframe about like this could be fun and generative and organic.

Yes, yes, and it can be, I promise. Even for the introverts out there, I promise. But what you can do with this power hour, right, is I recommend in the book, and this goes back to the three P's list that we talk about, the intentional target list of companies that you might want to do business with for you or work at, right? Do consulting with or work at. That list, then, you start to curate your own

LinkedIn newsfeed with those companies, with those people that inspire you, companies that inspire you, businesses that you want to be connected to because then what you're doing is you're seeing that you get this curated newsfeed every morning where I get to see what Dr. Howie Jacobson is doing. this is so amazing. Look at this great work that you are doing, right? Then I get to look and see what some of my clients are doing. I get to look and see the newsfeed.

feeds of all of these amazing companies that I've curated by doing something so simple. Following them, you you go all the way down to the bottom of your LinkedIn, you know, page and it says, you know, do you want to follow this person? Do you want to follow this company? In essence, you're curating your newsfeed right there. And then to take it a step further, you do what I feel like we are getting very good at doing in our own

100 coaches organization is you start to take a look at what your colleagues are doing. You take a look at what is really interesting you and then you amplify it. You comment on it. You like it. You engage and then that tricks the algorithm algorithm of LinkedIn much more powerful so that you continue to get really really curated newsfeed in your morning power hour. So it's

following the companies, following the people, and then engaging.

Mm What are your what's your advice on engaging? You know, there there are posts that I read where I just want to say is great. Thank you so much. There are posts where I want to add something, but I'm a little I hear a voice in my head saying, like, don't be a mansplaining show off here.

Like, you know, and then there's there's posts I read where like, I think this is a this is a complete and utter pile of BS and I don't like it and I tend not to say anything.

No.

Fair enough. Yeah.

You want it to be very authentic. You do not want your networking to be inauthentic. And so I think it's really up to you, to each individual. Who is engaging to you? I mean, you don't have to comment on a post that you think is a pile of crap. You don't. You don't. You're a free person. But I think it's great. mean, the best case scenario is one that is so thought provoking that you want to.

Yeah.

engage and give your own thoughts and opinions and then maybe even repost with your own thoughts and opinions so that then you're amplifying your thought leadership and the thought leadership of this person that you're you know enjoying their post right so I think you know you you have to go with your gut don't be inauthentic with the with the networking

Uh-huh. Gotcha.

Right. But I see a lot of people saying, like, if you want to get noticed, be provocative. Right. Like, again, there's like, what am I trying to do here? Right. Right. Like, which is the dog and which is the tail? And, you know, it's very easy to get like, you know.

And only you can answer that question.

Yeah.

You wrote a book to help people. That was the primary motivation. As you go into the world of publishing, you're to you're rubbing shoulders, I'm sure, with a lot of people whose goal is the book's got to make money.

publisher totally that's why that's why they're in the business right and they will probably make more money off of it than I do which is fine as long as I'm helping people and and by the way a book as we know

has its own benefits that are not monetary, right? Not only does it help people, but it elevates my voice. It elevates my own thought leadership in the space, right? So, you know, there's so many different reasons for doing what, you know, why we do what we do. And, you know, my husband, as I put in all this time and all this, you know, blood, sweat and tears to get this book out the door, he's like, when are we going to make the money? I'm like, that's not why I did it.

Yeah.

That's not why I did it. So I call him the CFO of our household because he makes sure we're, you know, headed in the right direction at all times. Yes, very useful. And I'm not good at that stuff. I'm much better at the big picture like dream, go ahead, dream. And then let's break it down into actionable steps so that you can get to that dream. And that's what this book does.

Sounds useful.

So the power hour is largely about LinkedIn, about following, engaging. What is there? I assume there's a next step of greater intimacy. Right.

Yes.

Yeah, so that's the meetings, right? And whether it's from New York to Spain, right? The US to Spain today. It's taking the time. And it can be 15 to 20 minutes just to lock eyes and understand what's driving this person and how you can help that person, right? And I would say, now that I'm reflecting on my work day, my morning power hour after

my yoga or my workout and my meditation after I get kids off to school. It all kind of starts. And then I actually, this is not something I'm proud of, but I also take an hour after dinner while the kids are doing homework.

to check in with my LinkedIn emails and make sure that I'm following up with the people that need to be followed up with. Make sure that I'm connecting with people on a deeper level and setting up those kinds of meetings.

Mm hmm. Gotcha. And so how do you solicit a meeting? let's just like our not to give too much away, but we're we're part of a power hour. And it's mostly people like us who are coaches, consultants, and we can network with each other and we can occasionally refer business. But none of you is my target market.

Right?

Right. So so there's there's a sense in which like, OK, so I'm writing all these posts, but the people who are reading them aren't really.

Like they're in some way they're not the people I want. Like I'm trying to reach executives who can hire me, people with the kind of problems that I that I write about and talk about. How do I how do I get in front of them? Do I just follow them and just have conversations? And at some point they're going to be like, you're so interesting. I want to talk or do I? You know, like how do I go from being the shy kid at the dance?

You

Yes, yes, I love this. So let's put this into real time action. First of all, those target customers, some of those people on our morning power hour might know those target customers, right? So tell me, tell me right now so that the whole world who is watching and listening to us knows what your target customer is so that we can all help you. Who's your target customer?

Okay.

OK, so I got a few different clusters. One of them is founders who are now having to become leaders. entrepreneurial founders who've had the brilliant idea, who've spent the 20 hour days, you know, for years and years, things are successful enough that now they to run a team. And they have never learned how to do that. So.

Mmm.

Perfect. Yes. I already have somebody I can connect you with. How easy was that? Okay, what's your next area?

guy.

Next area is leaders who who have existing teams and it could be a small business team or a unit in a company where the way I think about it is people's people have maps of reality that they superimpose on reality. And so someone's someone's people are just having outsized and inappropriate emotional responses to things that are going on. People are triggering each other. They're there.

You

much drama, people are not aligned. It feels like either things are so safe that no one gets to say anything or it's unsafe and people are worried. Like, I'd love to work with those leaders and then train the teams on best practices in team building.

I love that. So the world needs more of what we call humane leaders, right? And that's exactly where you're going with that one. And I can also tell you that right now, you know, I mean, we've, we've got a lot of business when that business starts to bubble over, we need to bring in strategic partners to help us because once again, we're small and mighty. And so this is, know, already sparking ideas for, for me, right? And then you said there was a third category.

Third category is kind of any organization that is on the forefront of the great turning, which is to say around it's a phrase coined by Joanna Macy around the climate crisis, but really about how do we bring our spirits together to create a sustainable and just civilization on this planet?

And I want to support anyone who's doing that work in whatever way I

That might be the most beautiful number three, first of all, because that's where you're going to change the world, right? One person at a time.

Yeah. Yeah. And that and that's the one where I'm going, OK, that's the that's the icing. Once you know, once I have the other two, then I can indulge in what I really care about.

Not at all. I'm going to tell you, nope, nope, nope. You're going to indulge in that right now. Right now. Because I actually now see this is so powerful. I'm thinking about one person I can introduce you to on category one.

I'm now you've planted a seed for category two with a couple different people. I know two people that I want to introduce you in category three. Like this is it, right? This is where the magic happens. The human connection of connecting on a soul level and on a, you know, on a human level about what is meaningful and what gives us purpose, right? And your number three is all about your purpose.

Whoa.

And guess what? You can work with all three of those categories in a really awesome, organic way, right? Because number three is not going to be paying the bills maybe right away, but it's going to be changing the world. The other two will help you pay the bills.

Mm Yeah. Wow. I got a little jaw pain from how wide I'm smiling right now. is. If it turns into a grimace, that's that's what's going on. It's just it's just a masseter spasm. It's nothing. Yeah.

Good!

You need to eat more vegetables. Make sure that you're not, you don't have any inflammation in your jaw.

I had such a big salad today. So so I feel like the question to ask now is and maybe this is not for a public conversation, but like, how can I help you?

Good, good, good, good. I love it, yeah.

Well, you are helping me right here. First of all, thank you for asking the question. See, when the teacher appears, the student will, what is it? When the student is ready, the teacher will appear, whatever that is. But literally, I so appreciate that question. I just wanna get this book into the most hands of the people who need it. So spreading the word about the book right now would be the most helpful thing for me.

Uh-huh.

Excellent, excellent. know, the USA today has a certain reach but can't compare to mine.

Exactly! Hey, you know what USA Today, is it reaching to Spain? I need people like you and Macarena to help me on that front. Yes, yes, exactly, exactly. But no, I mean, I think that this conversation is already warranting a second one where you and I will go a little bit deeper on how we can help each other.

That's right, yeah, Spain today.

Hmm. That's beautiful. So let's the three P's. So what are they and how do we think about you deploying them to find out to light ourselves up?

Right, so you'll love this because you have a background in marketing, but at Kellogg School of Business at Northwestern University, I learned about the four P's of marketing, right? Well, what I created was the three P's of a job search. And that is, in essence, flipping your job search inside out, right? Because I just posted something recently. So many people...

Yeah.

They look for a job based on what openings are out there. Google's hiring, but I really want to go work for Netflix, but they don't have any open jobs. Well, I'm saying throw that notion away. Yes, if you want to apply for the Google job, great. But to be very intentional and strategic around your job search, you need to create a list of companies that you want to go after.

And that goes into the three P's categories, your usual prospects. And I found that the best example to use is my husband's background on this one just because he's in media sales, right?

So he works for Warner Brothers. If he was going to go somewhere else, he would look at NBC, Viacom, any of all of those big media companies. But if he was to make a pivot, which would be the next category of companies, he would be looking at Google, tech, Netflix, places like that. But if he was going to go into his passions list,

He's extremely passionate about US football. And so, that's me. I'm the Bears because I'm from Chicago, but no, he is a big New York Jets fan.

what what team the Bears?

Okay.

Okay

So a company that could go onto his passion list would be the New York Jets or the NFL, because they're based in New York, I believe, too. So that's kind of a good example of kind of blowing away the fact that you don't have to just wait for the opening. You can start using your power networking to actually break into some of these companies that are on your target list.

New York Jets.

Hmm. Yeah. And in terms of pivots and passions, what occurs to me is, you know, with a background in marketing, like every marketing innovation is just somebody stealing something from somewhere and moving it somewhere else. Right. So, you know, the what everybody is doing in an industry, by definition, gets stale. And so there may more value to add in pivoting to.

to a different industry than than in just, you know, riding on the expertise that you developed in one.

Yes.

And you did it, right? And you took a fresh set of eyes and pivoted into a different industry with your marketing expertise. Well, who doesn't want somebody in their organization who understands the principles of marketing?

Right, right. I'm also thinking about, you know, the story of Alan Mulally going from Boeing to Ford and, you know, the first meeting telling everybody, I don't know anything about cars. Right.

Yeah, Alan walked in with a fresh perspective and blew it all away, right? Yeah. Yes, exactly. Another great example from our MG100 organization is Dr. Richard Ossobonjo. He was a chemist who is now in leadership. I mean, what a pivot, right? And he's happier than he's ever been.

But he knew about people. knew about humane leadership.

Hmm.

Uh-huh.

Hmm. That makes so much sense, because one of the things when I would coach people around their health habits, know, people have a lot of shame and a lot of lack of agency if they're, you know, they can't control their eating, if they can't get off the couch to go for a walk. They just they feel in that slice of their life, they feel very sub.

And I would ask them, like, what do you what do you do for a living? Which was kind of a strange question for a guy who's supposed to be like, you know, getting them to put down the Snickers bar. And they would say something. And I have enough of a business background to be able to kind of guess like, so that means, you're probably pretty good with numbers. you're a project manager. You're probably like. And I would get them through almost Colombo type questioning, like, you know, innocent, stupid questioning.

Yeah.

to get them to say how those skills that they already had applied to the thing that they couldn't succeed at. like, so like you can't you can't stop eating blueberry pie. Like, you know, did you ever not want to go to work in the morning? Like, yes. so so all those mornings you slept in, right? And they're like, no, I would never do that. I don't you know, I don't act on impulse. And they're like,

Yes.

So like we have all these strengths that, you I think we become blinded to the fact that they're much more universally applicable than we think.

yeah.

Absolutely, and you know I love this book that's you know in the public domain called strength finders 2.0 right and It's what Tom Rath's theory is is it's all about elevating our natural gifts and our strengths right and bringing those to work to the workforce but also to life and You know when you know what your top five strengths are you can play off of that and help to build those But also then we go you know another step deeper to what you're talking about which is

Mm.

intentionality, but also the power of the pause, right? This guy that you were talking to with the blueberry pies, right? Why don't you pause and ask yourself, why do I want this piece of pie?

Right? What is it? You know, and I know women are always hard on themselves with their weight and everything. I've always asked myself, like, is this piece of pizza worth blah, blah, blah? Right? You know, worth?

gaining a pound? Probably not, right? But it's okay to have a bite. It's okay to indulge a little bit, but just having those healthy boundaries around even your indulgence. Indulgence, right? You know more about this than I do. I'm just kind of, you know, putting the analogy in some of the stuff that we do in the book.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, it's like the overarching thing that's hitting me is appreciation of the strengths and experiences that we bring as opposed to I think one of my defaults is to always look at the gap, right? Always look at what's between me and excellence here. What do I not have? What do I not bring?

And the Tom Rath Strength Finder perspective, you know, obviously, I shouldn't become like a brain surgeon. Right. Like, like there are there are places in which I should not have, you know, imposter syndrome. Like that's like like like I'm a doctor. I'm not that kind of doctor. You know, don't don't don't come to me with a hernia. But.

Yeah.

Yes, yes.

Right.

Yes, exactly.

but that there is that all of us have strengths. I think in a way recognizing my strengths felt like.

that I was sort of setting myself apart, like, I've got to be good. I've got to be better. But really, when I really embraced what I'm good at, it kind of made me just like everybody else. Like I'm just like we all have experiences and talents and proclivities that are are unused.

Yeah, and sometimes not always.

respected, right? So it starts with you where you need to be able to embrace those natural gifts. And then the more that you can embrace and elevate those gifts, the more that people are going to recognize it and appreciate it in you. And it's so powerful. I mean, you do a lot of work with teams, right? We do this exercise with strength finders, with large corporate teams and the aha moments that happen, you know, just understanding people's natural gifts and strengths.

then you know they start to come together and say well wait all right Howie's really good at marketing Mary's really good at this let's put them together put them on an assignment together and see where they go right so there's so many aha moments that can happen from from a very very you know simple theory of embracing what you're good at

huh.

Yeah. Yeah. And, the other thing is to with you with humane leaders, we can create an environment where like every one of my strengths is also a weakness. Right. So if I'm the marketing guy, I see opportunity everywhere. If you're the risk management person, then you see problems everywhere. And we probably hate each other unless we are in an environment where it's safe.

Yes.

to name and explore and understand that, your impulse to to shoot down every one of my ideas is protective and I'm happy for it.

Yes, yes, like we talked about that COO in that first company that you worked at, right? We need the dreamers and we need the process people. We need each other to make an organization great. If there were a bunch of dreamers in a company, that would be a great conversation and lots of fun for you and I, but there wouldn't be anything getting done, right? We need the people who are actually gonna jump in and say, your five ideas are amazing, but here's the risk in three of them.

Yeah.

Hmm.

the top two, right? We need another person who says, hey, your ideas are great, who's going to put them into place? You guys are going to lead the charge, yeah, but we need people to do the paperwork, right? So embracing all those different strengths.

Right, right. I love it, I love it. So I've taken an hour out of your life, so which is what I promised. So I'm going to give you your day back and bring things to a close. Could you tell people again the name of the book and where people can find you online if they want to find out more and who who should contact you, your small and mighty company for for hiring you?

Yes, yes, well, here's the book. I'll just hold it up, right? and it's also behind me. But what lights you up? Illuminate your path and take the next big step in your career. You can find me at the book website, which is actually my name, maryolsonmansell.com. Make sure that, yep.

Okay.

You better spell that. There's enough ambiguity there.

m-a-r-y-o-l-s-o-n m-e-n-z-e-l dot com. Or if you want to do work with our organization as a whole, we have a company website and it is m-v-p-e-x-e-c dot com. mvpexec dot com.

So I would love to hear from you. Connect with me on LinkedIn. You and I are gonna continue our conversation on a very deep level. know it, but thank you for having me today.

All right. It has been such a pleasure and, know, the sparks are flying. know they may not be visible, but when you explain what power hour is and how much fun it's going to be and that I can do it over coffee.

Yes, it takes time. Well, yeah, when you're doing it with the US, you might have to do over whatever you drink at night, but I can't know.

huh. Well, do I can I can I do I have to do it synchronously? Can I just get up in the morning and. Right, because like in our group, I'm always the first person to post because it's like three in the afternoon and you guys are just, you know. Getting out of your bathroom.

No. Yeah, get up in the morning and do it. Yes. Yes.

Yep, yep, exactly. We're finishing our workouts and our meditations and headed into our power hour.

Cool. Mary Olson Menzel, this has been such a useful and amazing and positive conversation. I'm still I'm still aching from the smiles. I feel like I've gotten so much value personally. The questions you asked, I think I articulated my value propositions and my passions clearer than I ever have. somehow you've got some magic gift in the way you ask questions.

And I just I thank you for birthing this book into the world and for everything you do.

Well, thank you. appreciate you having me on and I look forward to continuing the conversation. All right. Thank you.

Right on. Take care.

And that's a wrap. Show notes for today's episode are at PlantYourself.com slash six zero seven. So it's two twenty in the afternoon and I'm still going strong after a really hard morning workout on the beach. Did some sprints, push ups, reverse flies, planks, side plank, front plank, plank with a leg in the air.

thingy raises, shoulder raises, pistol squats, front and back squats. I had to walk my bicycle back for about 10 minutes because I was afraid of riding into a ditch or a parked car or the Mediterranean for that matter, but seemed to have recovered. So very, very cool. Exciting news for those of you who are.

So for the first time in a long time, I'll be one of the youngest people on the field rather than the oldest. That's it for this week, as always. Be well, my friends.