Holly and Joe welcome Keisha Joseph, a food systems coordinator at Indwell, a nonprofit providing supportive housing across Ontario. With her background in nutrition and dietetics, Keisha shares insights into food security, food literacy, and community building. She explains how Indwell helps residents transition from homelessness to stable housing while addressing food insecurity through meal programs, cooking classes, and grocery shopping support. Keisha discusses how food deserts, rising prices, and inadequate social benefits contribute to systemic food insecurity. She advocates for a practical approach to nutrition, emphasizing the importance of regular meals over strict dietary rules. The conversation explores urban planning's role in food accessibility, the potential of indoor farming, and how stable housing creates a foundation for food security. Keisha's passion for community nutrition and empowering others shines through as she describes her fulfilling work at Indwell. 

Links mentioned in this episode:

• Indwell's Website: https://indwell.ca/
• Indwell's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/indwell.ca
• The Middlesex London Food Policy Council: https://mlfpc.ca

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• Follow GrowAbility at https://gapod.me/links
• Sign up for our Fresh & Nutritious Newsletter at https://gapod.me/newsletter

About Keisha Joseph

Keisha Joseph is a food systems coordinator at Indwell, a nonprofit organization providing supportive housing across Ontario. With a Bachelor's degree in Nutrition and Dietetics from Brescia University College, she found her calling in community nutrition rather than clinical practice.

At Indwell, Keisha works to improve food security and literacy among residents who have experienced homelessness or face housing instability. She started as a Food Program Facilitator, teaching cooking skills, grocery shopping, and food literacy while coordinating meal programs. Now in a coordination role, she oversees food programs throughout London's Indwell communities.

As a member of the Middlesex London Food Policy Council, Keisha advocates for systemic changes to address food insecurity. She takes a practical approach to nutrition education, emphasizing regular meals and basic food groups over strict dietary rules. Her passion lies in empowering individuals to regain agency over their food choices while building stronger, more food-secure communities.

Show Credits

GrowAbility is hosted by Joe Gansevles and Holly Pugsley.

Special thanks to this week's guest, Keisha Joseph.

Our show is produced by Adam Caplan, Joe Gansevles, and Holly Pugsley.

Production support from Oliver Gansevles, Evan Gansevles, Scott Hohn, Kevin Labont, Paul Rogers, Dorentina Uka, and Alan Williamson.

Holly Pugsley of Just Keep Growing art directed this episode and made sure the plants looked great.

Audience strategy by Dorentina Uka and Tess Alcock.

Our theme music is Wandering William by Adrian Walther and can be found on Soundstripe.

Adam Caplan, that's me, is web.isod.es Executive Producer, and Sammy Orlowski is our Senior Creator.

Thanks to TechAlliance of Southwestern Ontario, including Farida Abdelnabi and Sarah Edmondson, for letting us shoot at their beautiful offices.

Special thanks to Leigh Ann Gansevles for the support and yummy food, Hubert Orlowski for helping our podcast sound great, and Gabor Sass for making some great introductions.

GrowAbility is a web.isod.es production and is produced with the support and participation of the team at The PATCH and Hutton House.

Holly, what's your go-to comfort food?

My total guilty pleasure is my

world-famous homemade spaghetti.

With meatballs?

You guessed it.

If there's any other way to eat pasta, I

really don't want to know about it.

But what about you?

Well, I'm a gluten-free vegetarian who

will ride my vintage bicycle 50km

in sub-zero temperatures before I eat

breakfast.

I don't need comfort food.

Come on, everybody's got a little

something they cry into or celebrate

with. What's yours?

Okay, you got me.

Apple dumplings.

Really? That's interesting.

The hipster's cyclist's got a sweet

tooth.

Hey!

I don't know, Joe.

I just call 'em like I see 'em.

From webisodes, this is GrowAbility, a

digital documentary at the intersection

of urban agriculture, food security,

and community.

On this episode, we are chewing the

proverbial fat with food systems

champion, Keisha Joseph.

Keisha Works is the food program

coordinator with the subsidized and

supportive housing charity that provides

housing and support for vulnerable

populations.

Just a heads-up that many

of the individuals Keisha works with

have experienced homelessness or are

living in precarious housing situations

and may even have severe mental

health disabilities or substance abuse

disorders.

Some listeners may find some of our

conversation disturbing.

So, Holly, I think Keisha proves that

not all heroes wear capes.

Right. I'm so excited to talk to her

about finding a balance between

nutrition and sustenance, particularly

on extremely tight budgets.

I'm curious about how she advises people

to navigate food deserts and how a

lack of accessibility contributes to

poor mental and physical health.

Like, how are people supposed to eat

healthy when they can't get access

to good food, even when they want it?

Exactly.

If you've made it this far, you love us.

Tell your friends about us and

definitely rate and review us on Apple

Podcasts.

And if you're watching this on the

YouTube, take a moment to like and

subscribe.

Better yet, sign up for our free Fresh

and Nutritious newsletter.

No food desert there.

And special thanks to Tech Alliance of

Southwestern Ontario for hosting us at

their offices for this round of

interviews.

We always want to hear from you, so

please send your emails to hosts at

growabilitypod .com.

We're excited for your suggestions and

questions.

Well, first up, let's roll our interview

with Keisha Joseph.

Keisha, thank you so much for joining us

here today.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Before we dive in, you have a really

interesting education.

And can you talk us through nutrition

and dietetics?

Did I say that right?

Yes, you did.

OK, good.

Nice.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, so I have a Bachelor of Science

in nutrition and dietetics from

formerly known as Brescia University

College. So sad that they are no longer.

Yeah, so I did that degree

and that

usually leads you towards becoming a

registered dietitian.

So after you do that degree, typically

you'd have to do a master's

program or an internship.

And so nutrition and dietetics, the

idea behind that, nutrition is kind

of the study of

how food affects your body.

But dietetics focuses more on

how to like coach or

support somebody specifically with their

diet.

So you want nutrition so you know all

the information about food and how it

impacts the body.

And then dietetics is that kind of

piece about helping people figure out

how to change their

diet for the better.

Cool.

Interesting. You now work as a food

systems coordinator for an organization

called Indwell.

Let's start there. What is Indwell and

what's its mission?

Yeah, so Indwell is a nonprofit

organization and we do

supportive and subsidized housing for

people in need.

We say hope and homes for all.

And yeah, so our

clientele typically would be

people who have mental health

concerns, substance use disorders,

physical disabilities, a combination of

those things.

And usually they are

coming from homelessness or have been

previously homeless and are in some sort

of precarious housing or are

at risk of losing their housing.

So we will bring

them in. We will give them permanent

housing and provide them

with the supports that they need to make

sure that they stay housed, which is

our ultimate goal, as we say, like I

said, hope and homes for all.

So I have it on good authority that

Indwell isn't just in our community.

It's in other communities.

Would you be able to talk a little bit

about geographically where

Indwell is?

Yeah, so in London we have three

buildings with three more coming on in

the next couple of years.

And then we go as far

east as Mississauga.

And then we have some buildings in

kind of the Simcoe area.

And I think the furthest west we are is

London, but hoping to

expand outside of that.

London is one of our biggest areas that

we are in. And the other biggest area

is Hamilton. That's actually where

Indwell started.

So we have quite a number of buildings

in Hamilton.

A couple in St. Thomas, Woodstock,

like I said, Mississauga, Simcoe,

Kitchener, Waterloo.

So yeah, we're expanding quite rapidly,

which is really nice.

And it's nice to see that we're not only

expanding into other regions,

but also expanding within the regions

that we're already in.

That's right, investing in your

communities.

Yeah, exactly.

So I'm super curious about your job.

Because in every time we've

had to chat, you're always doing

something cool. Would you be able to

tell our viewers and our listeners a

little bit about your job?

Yeah.

So I'll do kind of two things.

So I actually recently transitioned

into the role I'm in now, which is

a bit more of I would say administrative

work and kind of overseeing

and coordinating the food

program within the London region.

So I work within the buildings that we

have to support the people that are

on kind of the front lines doing food

security work and creating

different partnerships, helping with

new buildings, new projects that we have

going on.

But prior to that and kind of the

food security work that we do directly

with our tenants is the food

program facilitator role, which is where

I started at Indwell.

And that is more of a frontline

food security support job.

So that's a lot of teaching

skills. So we'll do cooking classes,

one on one support with our tenants,

do stuff like going to grocery

stores to teach them how to grocery

shop, maybe relieve some anxiety

that they might have around that,

connecting them with resources that

could get them, whether it be free food

or food at a budget.

We use a lot of community resources that

already exist.

So things like the Middlesex

London Health Unit Harvest Bucks

program. We love the Harvest Bucks.

They are super helpful and the

different other programs that they have

alongside that.

And then we have our meal program as

well, which is each of our

tenants that are in our buildings, they

get one hot meal a day.

And that is either catered by an outside

vendor, which is the

way that we work in London specifically.

But in our other buildings, some of the

food program facilitators will actually

cook those meals daily.

And so that's a way that we can kind

of ensure that our tenants have at

least some baseline food

security. They at the very least are

getting one meal each day.

Yeah, so I started out as that, which

is really nice.

It's very fulfilling.

It's nice to see as they grow

how much more interested they get in

cooking, how much more interested they

get in grocery shopping, how they go

from needing a staff to go with

them to the grocery store to being able

to do it completely on their own and

budget. It's really nice.

But now I kind of do

more of like the organizing of

those things and

making sure that we're doing that kind

of equally throughout and more,

not necessarily standardized, but

consistently throughout the London

programs.

It's really impactful work that you guys

are doing.

It's awesome. It's like I said, very

fulfilling. It makes the hard

days easier.

Yeah.

Now you're doing it for a better

purpose.

Exactly.

For some change, some real change too.

We're all pretty upset about the

bills that we get at the grocery store

these days.

But what does that mean?

What does it mean to be truly food

insecure in that case?

Yeah, so I actually personally think

that food insecurity is a symptom of

our system that is failing.

Interesting.

And the food prices, like you said, are

a really great example of that.

I think that is our system failing in

different ways. It's not only a

failure of the current food system that

we have. There's a lot of like

monopolization of different food,

just kind of commodity crops, things

like that that are impacting food

prices and the farmers that are growing

the food.

But then there's also a failure of the

system in the income

sector, especially with

our tenants. A lot of them are on

social service benefits of different

kinds. And it is

not nearly enough for anybody to live

off of, especially when you add

that rising of

food prices as well.

So, yeah, I think

that there are definitely other things

that contribute to food security.

But if we're talking about that

specifically, I do think that it is

a failure of our system to not

look at the way that we

get food currently is not

sustainable, not even just for us, but

also for the environment.

And then on the other end,

how, you know, I think that

people forget that food is not just a

basic need, but it is like a part

of us. Food, you know, brings so

much emotion.

It can, you know, hold memories.

It can, you know, change your mood very

drastically.

So I feel like that's forgotten.

And it's definitely more of,

like I said, a commodity food is

there to make money or just

to, you know, feed us.

And that's about it.

So I think that's a crucial

piece that's missing in the

way that we view the food

system.

I think convenience has a

big impact in

food insecurity where, like,

where people just, you know, they were

unable to access the food.

Like, is that a part of the, do you

think that's a bigger part of the

problem, the accessibility part?

For sure. 100 percent.

The two, well,

three, actually all three of our

buildings in London are in food deserts.

So we have two buildings that are along

the Dundas Street, one at 356

and one at 730.

So they're kind of

downtown Old East Village area.

And then our other one is over on

Thompson Road. And there is not a

grocery store within walking distance.

There's not really a grocery store

within reasonable bussing distance

either. Especially when we

first opened in the Embassy Commons

building, which is the one in Old East

Village.

That building,

Dundas was going through crazy

construction during that time for, I

think, probably almost a full

year that we were open.

And so tenants couldn't access the

bus unless they were going to walk all

the way down to York Street and

catch the bus there, which is

not realistic for a lot of our tenants,

especially because a lot of them do have

physical disabilities that already

present that barrier.

And then on top of that, you

know, to have to walk, it's just

unrealistic.

So, yeah, I think that

there's not enough

accessibility in that

realm for sure of being able to actually

get to the places to get the food.

You see a lot of convenience stores

pop up in areas where it's

not super accessible.

And they will obviously have,

you know, even more expensive prices

than the grocery store.

So it's like a double whammy kind

of like first you can't even get to the

grocery stores that are affordable

and then that are

affordable. And then you get to

the place that you can get food and it

is, you know, triple

the price that you would have at the

grocery store anyway.

So, yeah, there's no winning.

We almost need like little farmers

markets on every corner.

I 100 % agree with that.

That's my dream.

Yeah. Why can't we- It's odd that we

have access to like a million Tim

Hortons and McDonald's on every single

corner. And then like where

is the health and

where are all the...

I think urban agriculture plays a big

part in this.

But yeah, I just think sourcing

these foods, like people are growing

and we just need to find them, make

sure we utilize the buildings that are

going to waste kind of around these food

deserts.

Yeah, 100%. Definitely in

the areas that we're in, we see there

are a lot of buildings that are just

empty and serve

no purpose currently.

And I think the same goes for even like

green spaces.

Like there are not a lot of green spaces

where our buildings are.

But I think things like community

gardens or even

parks that could have

spaces where you have food that's

available to people or

edible fruit trees like in

the areas.

I feel like, you know, if you're going

down Dundas instead of putting, you

know, I think it's like a redwood that

they put there or a redbud,

put a fruit tree.

You know, why not just throw a fruit

tree instead?

What's really interesting about the work

that you do is convenience

and community don't always go hand in

hand. And I think one

of the antidotes

for food security is

community.

How do you feel about that?

I agree.

I think that food creates

belonging for sure and is a

great entry into building

community, you know.

I don't know what the saying is, but

there's some saying about if someone

eats your food, then they must really

trust you or something like that.

I like that.

This idea that, you know, if someone

is choosing to eat something you've made

for them, they must, you know, really

connect with you in some way.

And I think it helps form

connection.

That's one of the things that we believe

in in the work that we do at Indwell.

It's why we have the things like the

meal program as well, not just to feed

them, but to give an opportunity for

everyone to come together, sit down,

share a meal.

And I think it's a good segue

in terms of having a conversation, right?

Yeah.

You can talk about if you're enjoying

the meal, if you're not enjoying the

meal, what kind of foods do you like,

what kind of foods you don't like, if

you like to cook, if you don't.

So I think, yeah, I think that food

definitely creates

community, builds belonging, and it

kind of goes back to what you were just

saying about growing food as well.

You know, a community working together

to grow food or share food

that they have grown with each other

is amazing.

Maybe someone has the skills to grow the

food, but doesn't really feel that

confident in the kitchen.

You know, but then you guys come

together. You have a person who can

cook, person who can grow.

And now you've, you know,

solved your food insecurity.

It's almost like wealth to me.

Yeah.

That's what wealth is to me.

Yeah, 100 percent.

I mean, you look at processed food there

because there's there's brand names

attached.

There's an implied trust.

Right.

But there's a real trust in

community and in,

you know, bringing people together

into growing food.

And for me, the work you

do is that's so important.

And I really appreciate it.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Yeah, we need people like you out there.

Just advocates for advocates for

change, though, like real change.

I think a lot of people get like almost

frustrated.

Like, how do we afford healthy foods?

How do we access them?

It's like if if we're not being

given it in a convenient way, it's

like very difficult to oversee those

barriers and just kind of plow through.

But yeah, it's really important to have

people like you and also like, yeah,

Indwell in general, just in

these cities. Yeah, that we're in need.

We are in need.

And to piggyback off of that,

you know, what what

happens to people that are seeking

healthy food that they can't afford it

for themselves or themselves

and their families? What what does that

look like in the work that you do?

Yeah, so we often see a lot of people

obviously will turn to foods that we

would, I guess, consider unhealthy.

Foods that are cheap foods

that are ultra processed

just to get some sort of calories in,

right. So they have some sort of energy

to go through their day.

I also think it results in

kind of an oversaturation saturation

with food services that exist,

like food banks and meal support

services, because

people, you know, don't have

anywhere else to turn.

And then, you know, food banks are

running out of food really quickly.

You know, they're relying

on people to donate.

But when you see we're already having

this food crisis where, you know, people

who do have moderate incomes are

barely affording food, they

are not in a position necessarily to

be able to donate. And then you have the

people who can't afford the food at all

relying on those people to

donate. And it's just, you know, a cycle

that results in everyone being

food insecure.

Yeah.

And when we look at that and

we look at processed food,

you know, because that processed food is

the go to.

And there's

calories. So there's empty calories

and calories may be

delicious, but not necessarily

nutritious.

How do

folks like yourself lead

that change to healthy

and nutritious food?

What does that conversation look like?

I personally tend to take

a lens of

it's a pretty up

and coming idea of like food neutrality

sort of.

So instead of focusing

on the idea of like just flat out

healthy versus unhealthy, I try to

focus more on the actual like nutrients,

like breaking it down into into what

it is. And I'm not a registered

dietician, so I would say that, you

know, my level of expertise is not,

you know, crazy.

But usually with the people that we're

supporting, they're not necessarily

looking for a deep dive on every single

nutrient that's in an apple.

But if they can understand, you know,

the the basics of, you know,

carbs, proteins, fats, these are

the things that the things that they do

for your body. These are the vitamins.

These are the minerals.

You know, some people are more interested

than others, which is, you know, you get

with everybody.

But yeah, I try to take that lens, this

idea of, you know, well, calories are

energy.

And at the very least, that's a

baseline. You know, that food is

important because we need that energy

and that's what calories provide to us.

But if you had, you know, an

apple and you had a chocolate bar,

yes, they're both going to give you

energy in theory.

But, you know, the apple's not only

going to give you energy, but it's going

to give you all these different vitamins

that are going to do all these different

things for your body.

And the chocolate bar might give you

a vitamin or two, but it's not going to

give you as many. And you're not, you

know, you're going to get all these

extra benefits with the apple, not only

just the energy as opposed to

the chocolate bar.

And, you know, sometimes I'm like, just

eat both. Why not?

If you have both, eat both.

Start with championing

healthy food systems.

Yes.

And then the chocolate bar.

Yeah, exactly.

What do you think though?

Do our bodies crave calories

first or is that like an

evolution thing?

What do you think?

I don't know.

That's an interesting question.

I don't know.

I find the idea of like cravings

really interesting.

Especially like, you know, everyone has

cravings and you can have cravings

for so many different things.

I think people typically go to this idea

of

sweets, right?

You crave sweets, but sometimes

I crave salty things.

Sometimes I crave lettuce

and it typically is because I'm thirsty.

Usually I've discovered that when I

crave lettuce, it's because I'm thirsty.

Interesting. I'm going to keep an eye on that.

But yeah, I don't know in terms

of calories.

Again, I really like to break it down

into this idea that they're energy,

because I think especially with like

diet culture and all these things,

calories have been pretty demonized to

this thing that, you know, just makes

you gain weight. And that's the only

thing they're there for.

And to lose weight, you have to eat less

calories, which isn't necessarily, you

know, which is true.

But, you know, when you break it down,

calories are energy, right?

I don't know if we can consider it a

scientific name, but kilocalories,

Kcal, is like the name of calories

for energy.

Our bodies need it.

Same with glucose, right?

Like sugar, people think of sugar

and they, you know, yeah,

but glucose is what our body runs on.

It's what our brain runs on, right?

Our muscles and our brain could not

function without glucose.

And that's, you know, if you think about

it in that very scientific

form, I guess, it is a lot easier

to wrap your head around and kind of

remove all those fears.

So, yeah, I don't really think that

answered your question per se.

But yeah, I'm

not sure about craving in terms of

calories, but I think that's a

really interesting question and it's

going to make me think.

We were talking about it the other day,

too. It is a fascinating one because

it's like why?

Because I think a lot of people is like,

I don't know, when I hear someone

who is food insecure, like it's more

about the calories.

And I wonder if there is,

yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, I think it's an interesting one.

Yeah, I think that's a great point.

If you think about, like, food

insecurity and calories, because, you

know, like, especially at the beginning

of people coming into our buildings,

my priority is not to teach

them about healthy and not healthy

foods or, hey, you shouldn't eat.

It's just like, just eat.

Let's just get you to eating, you know,

three meals a day. That is our goal.

Regardless of what they are, let's just

get it that you are regularly eating

three meals a day. And then once that's

consistent and, you know, you have the

tools to be able to do that and you're

not worried about whether or not you're

going to be able to have three meals a

day, then we'll move on to focusing on

what those meals are.

But until we get to that point, the

priority is just making sure that you

are getting enough food that you can

function in your day.

100%.

Yeah.

Well, okay, processed food works

on a systems level.

When we look at our processed foods,

we know that, you know, there's a

branding, there's a logistics, and

there's a marketing.

Where, when we look at healthy and

nutritious foods, what's

their backbone?

I think the people who are growing

it, right? Like the farmers and

those people who are, you know,

spending their days

and their livelihood and, you know, have

such a strong passion to make that food

available for us.

Something that I am

really interested in

is these

food service

organizations that will

sell the kind of bad and

ugly produce.

Right, yeah!

It's interesting to me that just because

like an apple looks a little odd or

a potato is a weird shape, it is

thrown away. It's considered garbage

when it literally is

the exact same as the apple that looks

perfect.

And yeah, I think that's really

interesting because not only does it

help accessibility for

the people consuming the food, but it

helps the farmers as well, right?

They're not losing all of this, you

know, produce that they've spent,

like I said, their day, their livelihood

that they're passionate about growing.

Right.

That's just going in the garbage because

the grocery store said that's ugly and

I don't like it.

That apple has character.

Yeah. Exactly.

That apple could be the most nutritious

apple you've ever had in your entire

life. It could be literally the best

apple in the world, and you're just

throwing it away because, you know, it

has a little lump or something.

Don't judge that apple.

Consumerism is interesting.

It's beautiful on the inside.

Leave him alone.

Let him live.

Oh my goodness. Yeah, I completely

agree.

Sometimes a healthy diet isn't always

about the money. It's about time and

lifestyle.

If someone's working crazy hours or

super busy, how are they supposed to eat

more healthy?

It's a big one.

I'm a big...

Okay.

I don't like doing it, but I am

an advocate for meal planning.

Okay.

Which I think, you know, time

and such does not necessarily

always agree with that idea, but

I do think

that, you know,

if you have time within your

day, even if it's just like a couple

hours on the weekend to go to the

grocery store, just prep as much of

the food that you get as you can.

And I also think, you know, I tend to

try to promote like a 70-30 rule.

So I feel like when people think about

eating healthy, it's like I have to eat

healthy all the time. I can't eat any

junk. I can't eat any processed foods.

I can't eat anything bad for me.

I just need to eat healthy constantly,

which is not true and not realistic

and not necessarily a

mentally or emotionally healthy way of

living, right?

So I think if you can make

your lunches or

your dinners as healthy as

possible, then you're doing

great. And, you know, there's no

expectation that you have to eat

perfectly all the time by any means.

I also really like leaning on Canada's

food guide because I think- especially

the updated one, I think that it is-

I really like the changes that they

made because I think it makes it a lot

more realistic and a lot

easier for people to wrap their heads

around as opposed to like, OK, I have to

get this many servings of this, this

many servings of this, like that can be

very overwhelming.

But just knowing that, you know, you

have your plate.

If you have half of the vegetables, a

quarter of it protein, a quarter of it,

you know, grains or starches, then

you're good. Like, it doesn't matter

what those things are.

If you just follow that, then you're

eating healthy.

And I think encouraging

that idea of don't necessarily

focus on, do I have enough leafy greens?

Do I have enough, you know, of

this? Do I have enough, you know, red

meat? Do I have enough lean meats?

No, just, you know, you have a protein,

you have your grain and you have your

vegetables and you're good.

Keeping it simple.

Yeah, that's it.

Keeping it simple, not complicating

it. I think that there's a lot of,

a lot of,

I kind of think about social media

that's just like pushing for it to be

very complicated.

You know, even with meal prep, here's

what I meal prep in a week and it's, you

know, 75 meals and they're really

intricate. And you're like, how do you

have the time or energy

or money to buy all of that food and

then just, you know, produce

it all? And usually it's, you know,

because that's like kind of their only

job.

Right, just influencing and

yeah.

Exactly.

It's a little bit unrealistic too.

A hundred percent.

It's just like, yeah, how can

you, yeah.

Yeah, I find it hard.

A little bit weird pressure to like

almost eat so fancy,

but it's like, use what you have.

And if you can grow for yourself, you

can make it even fancier.

A hundred percent.

Like really, that's how I look at it.

Yeah, that's why I think food

exposure is really important for that as

well.

Making sure that people know of all the

different foods that they are, that are

available to them and how to utilize

them.

At the building that I primarily

work at, Embassy Commons, when I was

doing frontline work,

we utilize the London Good Food Box,

which is like a bag, that bag of fruits

and vegetables that you get each month.

And I gave one to a tenant and they

opened it up and they pulled it a bunch

of stuff and they pulled out an avocado

and they were like, what is this?

And I was like, oh, it's an avocado.

And they're like, oh, what's that?

And so I like explained to them what it

was. I showed them how to open it,

showed them, you know, different.

I was like, this is, you know, guacamole

typically is, you know, kind of the

first thing people think of when they

think of avocados, avocado toast.

And they're like, oh, wow, this is

really good. I've never even heard of an

avocado before.

And now, you know, they have this in

their repertoire. Now when they go to

the grocery store and they see the

avocados are on sale, they can choose to

buy an avocado instead of something

that's full price because they know what

it is.

Right?

It's really interesting.

It kind of leads me to this question I

had like in the back of my head,

just the connection between food

security and food literacy.

You're kind of talking about it already,

but I just, yeah, I want to

emphasize the importance of that.

And could you go into a little bit more

about like food literacy for

some people that don't understand what

that maybe means?

Yeah, for sure.

So when I think of food literacy, I

think of this idea of like utilization.

Right? So you can have

the food security in the sense of

like the accessibility, it's affordable,

you know, it's healthy, it's all of

these things. But if you, you know,

throw it all on your counter and you

don't know what to do with it, then

that's still a barrier, right?

Yes. Then you're stuck having all

the food, but you don't know how to

consume it. Right.

And so I think that food literacy I

think of utilization and having the

knowledge to be able to actually use

the food that you have.

And not even just in terms of

the food itself, but even having

the supplies to properly

prepare the food and knowing how to use

those different supplies, right?

Knowing how to use them safely also.

Yeah 100%.

That's priority as well.

Safety is important.

Exactly.

Yeah, or even like food storage.

You know, maybe you make a really

delicious meal and you make a

lot of it and you want to save it, but

you don't know how to save it in a way

that's going to, you know, food safety

and make it last and all of those

things, right? So

when we do the work that we do

at Indwell, we actually have a

list of kind of what we consider food

literacy that we see most often in our

tenants.

And I like to say that the role that

we're doing is identifying the gaps

within their food literacy and then

filling those gaps.

So that one that

I said is a perfect example.

Maybe someone's good at grocery

shopping, they know how to cook, but

they only know, you know, four out

of the billions of vegetables that exist

in the world. And so they can only

consume those four because they don't

know how to use the other ones.

Yeah, so I think that it's important

to consider that as well.

You know, you can give somebody all the

access in the world, but you also have

to give them the tools to be able to

utilize the stuff that you're

giving them.

100%.

Utilization. You used this word.

Yeah.

It's a very good word.

Thank you.

And we talked about food deserts, so I'm

going to kind of go back a little bit.

When we look at urban planning,

do you feel that

urban planning has

a part to play, positive or

negative, in the inaccessibility

of food, in what I would maybe

use the word epidemic?

I would say so, for sure.

I think that

even, you know, utilization,

like we said, it is also the growing

and that

accessibility piece,

right? When we think of the

food and agriculture, their definition

of food security, they have their four

pillars.

Accessibility, availability,

stability, and utilization, right?

So all those things go hand in hand,

especially the stability piece,

too. Having a sustainable food system,

sustainable agriculture, sustainable,

you know,

things in place to make sure that people

stay food secure, right?

I feel like that lends itself to

urban planning.

Like, you know, we can do all

this stuff, have all the access, have

all these different things, but if

it's only going to last during

the summer season when farmers markets

are, you know, open, then what

happens when, you know, it's

not those times and then people become

food insecure again?

That stability isn't there,

right?

Yeah.

Do you think indoor farming plays a

role in food deserts?

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

A huge role.

We have a new project coming up

at the Vision Soho

building that we're doing.

We're making a community food hub.

It's being supported by the London Food

Bank. And one of the things that we've

talked about is how to do, like,

indoor gardening.

Amazing.

Not farming, but indoor gardening.

And have that accessible to

people because it

definitely, like, such a big barrier

that I think is easily solvable,

right? Like, there is an easy solution

for those

things.

It's just getting more education than

two people.

A hundred percent.

And know-how almost in gardening.

I think when you bring it indoors, too,

I think people get really freaked out a

little bit because we've been just,

like, without that.

Like, almost that

relationship's kind of been severed a

little bit with nature.

So bringing it indoors almost seems so,

like, foreign to everybody.

And it's just like, yeah, it's a little

bit interesting. But once you get people

into it and understanding, it's actually

much simpler than you'd

think.

Yeah. I like to hope that people feel

like people are really into plants

lately, like house plants.

I feel like with the pandemic, it was

very like, oh, I'm going to buy a bunch

of plants. It's like, oh, why don't you

just, like, take a little step further?

You're almost there.

You're so close.

So you can eat it.

Yeah. It'd be perfect.

Imagine.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

I feel like that was my biggest focus

during COVID as well.

It's just like, oh, my gosh, I can eat

the food that I'm growing and I can grow

whatever I want. And they need the same

light and they need the same kind of

nutrients and they need the same kind of

pot and soil.

It's like perfect.

Yeah.

It was kind of like hand-in-hand.

But yeah, it's very interesting.

Is there anything that you want to talk

about that we maybe didn't touch on or

ask you about?

I do want to quickly highlight the,

it's just like a little off, slightly

off Kilter, but not really, the

Middlesex London Food Policy Council,

which I am a part of.

I just want to give them a quick shout

out because I think they're doing great

work. And we have a couple of things

like coming down the pipeline to get the

community more involved, which I think

lends itself to what we've been talking

about, about community and giving people

the power back to be able to

make themselves food secure,

not food insecure.

Right.

Yeah, I think of agency,

right?

You can't have the rest of the

food security principles without having

agency, the ability to do

it for yourself.

Yeah. So yeah, just wanted to

give them a little shout out.

I think they're doing great work and

it's great to be part of that group.

Thank you.

Yay.

Awesome.

I have, actually

I have two more questions for you.

Okay.

And I'm going to go back to urban

planning one last time.

Do you feel accessible

and affordable housing creates

a less or more cohesive

infrastructure for communities

with food security?

That's a really good question.

I'm going to say yes.

I think that

accessible-

when you think of like basic needs,

right? If you don't have shelter,

the rest of the stuff you're not

thinking about.

Yeah.

Often we see when our tenants come

into our buildings, like I said, they're

usually coming from homelessness or

have, are in some sort of housing

situation that's very poor or

at risk of losing their housing.

Food and food security is often very

much on the bottom of their priorities

list.

Yeah.

They're in survival mode, right?

So it takes a little bit for them to

kind of adjust to having stable housing

and understanding that it's not going to

just disappear in like four months, like

the rest of their lives it

has been like.

And obviously there's the affordability

piece as well on top of that.

They realize, oh, now I actually have a

little bit of money left over from my

monthly check to buy food

that has never happened before because

all of my money has been going to my

rent.

I have this stable home where

I have a kitchen and I have these

resources to be able to cook in my

kitchen. You know, I have a

place to sleep. I have a community that

I can rely on.

So now I can think about my food

security. I can actually think about

foods that I like to eat instead of just

getting something because I need some

sort of food.

So yeah, I think that it plays

such a big role in making

that something that they can actually

think about and start to work towards.

It's a hard way for us to learn that as

a community.

100%.

We have one final question.

OK.

What keeps you growing?

I think my work,

honestly.

I used to say when I was in my undergrad

that I always wanted a job that was

like school, which sounds kind of weird,

and a job where I was helping

people.

In school, there

is a pretty big focus on becoming a

registered dietitian and going into a

clinical nutrition setting.

But when I got the chance to learn more

about community nutrition, I was just

blown away, and I was like, this is it

for me. I want to teach people.

I want to give people, like I said,

their power back.

Give them the ability to do

these things for themselves, build

community, and see the lasting

impact that it has on their

lives.

And I'm able to do that every single

day.

Wonderful.

That's so lovely.

So powerful.

I love it.

Thank you.

Where can people find out more about

your work and about Indwell?

Yeah.

So we have social media.

Indwell.ca, I think, is what we are on

Instagram.

But Indwell.ca is our website also.

So you can check us out there.

We would love for people who can

give to help us build buildings and run

programs. That would be awesome.

We also love volunteers.

So people have passions or things that

they really want to share, things that

they really like to do, and they want to

share that with their tenants.

We are more than happy to

have volunteers. We also think it helps

reduce some stigma and kind of build

community and not have kind of an

us-and-them mentality.

So yeah, if you want to learn more,

not only just by going to our website,

but kind of actually be in it,

volunteer.

Yay, I'll mention that in the show notes

at the end too.

Awesome. Thank you.

Yeah, no problem.

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GrowAbility is hosted by Joe Gansevles

and Holly Pugsley.

Special thanks to this week's guest,

Keisha Joseph.

Our show is produced by Adam Caplan,

Joe Gansevles, and Holly Pugsley.

Production support from Oliver

Gansevles, Evan Gansevles, Scott

Hohn, Kevin Labont, Paul Rogers,

Dorentina Uka, and Alan Williamson.

Holly Pugsley of Just Keep Growing art

directed this episode and made sure the

plants looked great.

Audience strategy by Dorentina Uka and

Tess Alcock.

Our theme music is Wandering William by

Adrian Walther and can be found on

Soundstripe.

Adam Caplan, that's me, is web.isod.es

Executive Producer, and Sammy

Orlowski is our Senior Creator.

Thanks to TechAlliance of Southwestern

Ontario, including Farida Abdelnabi

and Sarah Edmondson, for letting us

shoot at their beautiful offices.

Special thanks to Leigh Ann Gansevles

for the support and yummy food,

Hubert Orlowski for helping our podcast

sound great, and Gabor Sass for

making some great introductions.

GrowAbility is a web.isod.es production

and is produced with the support and

participation of the team at The PATCH

and Hutton House.