Lessons From Four Decades of BirdLife International: Richard Grimmett on Conservation Success and Challenges.

How does a passion for birds turn into a lifelong career in global conservation? And what can four decades of experience teach us about the evolution of biodiversity efforts?

Today’s guest is Richard Grimmett, Senior Conservation Adviser at BirdLife International, where he’s been a driving force for over 40 years. From his early days mapping Important Bird Areas across Europe to leading conservation strategies as their Director of Conservation, Richard has played a pivotal role in shaping one of the world’s leading conservation organisations.

In this episode, we explore Richard’s incredible journey, key moments from his career, and the lessons he’s learned about managing conservation at scale. We also discuss the challenges the sector faces today, the skills needed for future conservationists, and Richard’s hopes for the next generation of conservation leaders.

It’s a reflective, insightful, and inspiring podcast.

Enjoy!

I'm now a senior conservation adviser. I, I'm working 3 days a week, and, I have a more sort of focused remit. Previously, you know, very wide ranging, set of responsibilities overseeing our our conservation programs around the world. Yeah. Fabulous.

And it's really nice to connect with you. Thanks for finding the time to chat. We should probably mention we worked together for a number of years at Birdlife, so it's kind of nice to kinda get full circle and also to be talking to you at this this particular phase in your career as you kind of, yeah, sort of ebbing into retirement, changing your role slightly, and You're right. Glide path glide path to retirement, I think, is how it's described. Oh, it's the official notes.

I've never heard of one that was glide path to oblivion, but, it's it's called a glide path to retirement. We'll find that. I'm not I'm not done yet. I've still got a number of years to go, and thankfully, my energy levels and my commitment levels are, I would say, almost undiminished. So, yeah.

There's there's more for me yet, but, in a different role. Great. Great. So you've been at BirdLife, I'm not even saying, for around 40 years. That's right.

So I'm a boy. Yeah. So you started your career at BirdLife, and you're still at BirdLife now. I'd love to talk about that journey you've been on. I think to start the journey, let's go right back to the beginning if we can and just paint a little picture as to, like, where did your passion and interest for wildlife or maybe birds specifically come from?

Is there a moment of time, an instance, a person? Like, where where did that start? I it's it's a really, really important question for me, and I I genuinely think that my interest in nature is is is a genetic one. You know, the orientation comes in the in the in my very DNA, and, I think it probably comes from my grandfather. And it you know, you could probably argue, you could trace it all the way back to sort of the hunters and gatherers who who who needed to take an interest in, you know, in the natural world and and were dependent on on on on, you know, their observer skills, their their bushcraft.

So I've always been interested in birds since, you know, my mother talked about me being interested from, you know, from the very moment I was a sort of conscious being. So we're going back, you know, to the age of 4 or 5. I had my first binoculars when I was 6, my first bird book. So I've always been a bit crazy about birds. And that's really been about, you know, what an interesting dimension to the natural world they are.

And I could talk for hours about why that's the case. But, yeah, that stayed with me through, you know, with through school. And, you know, I went to a comprehensive school. I got, you know, the occasional battering for being such an oddball. And so I didn't I didn't sort of say too much about that interest, at school.

Like, I sort of kept it under wraps a little bit. But, yeah, it it it that interest survived and it it strengthened in my sort of middle to late teens. And, I did a lot of of birding, a lot of traveling to see birds, did some pretty crazy things to see to see birds. But I didn't I didn't really think that I wanted a career in ornithology or conservation. It was quite an interesting thought process at that time.

I was really worried that if I had a job, say, as an RSPB warden or I was sort of out doing survey work for, you know, for for, for for for sort of, you know, ecological assessment purposes, I would just become a you know, I would lose that passion, that sort of wish to be outside, that enjoyment of birds and and nature. I was really terrified of losing that sort of the most important thing to me, you know, was that that passion that that Maybe your hobby, your career, and the change of I didn't wanna I didn't wanna mix the 2. So I didn't think I was gonna get into orthology or or sort of, you know, field field based, survey work and things. So I went in I don't know whether you want me to sort of rattle on, but I went to I I I followed in my dad's footsteps, in studying biochemistry. I didn't, for the life of me, know what I was gonna do when I came out of university.

In fact, very early on, I decided it wasn't the the discipline for me and I switched across to social sciences and, the logic I think I was applying at the time was that you know there's a there's and I I was by that point, I was really aware of and concerned about what was happening to the natural world, and I figured that a lot of that was down to what humankind was was up to and the impact it was having. And, I needed to understand the economics, I needed to understand the social dimension to, you know, what's happening in the environment. And so I I did a degree in economic and social studies at University of East Anglia. No co no coincidence. EUEA is the place if you are Like the burning hotspot in the UK out in Norfolk.

Main reason for being there and what I studied was secondary, but I went down that path. So I came out of university having done some very interesting courses, but not having really got myself into a very good position, to apply for any kind of, you know, meaningful job as I saw it. And I was a bit of a bit of a loose end at that point. You know, it hadn't hit me till quite late that actually after university, one does need, generally speaking, to find a job and and and and what the hell was I gonna do. So, I don't know whether you want me to continue rattling on, but I Well, yeah.

I can't imagine that mix if you want. That sort of sets the scene really nicely. Yeah. You've got a strong interest, passion for conservation. You weren't sure you wanted to make that your career.

It might sort of taint that. So you went and studied really what your dad did, and then left university, graduated. How did you then connect with your passion with BirdLife International, and where did where did that how did that happen? Like, where did things start, and why did you and how and why did you make that decision? Like, you obviously went all in.

Well, I I became aware of what was then ICBP Yeah. And I was aware International Conservation for Bird Preservation. For preservation. It was the we're the predecessor to BirdLife. Yeah.

It was a very different organization at that time, but I became aware of it because Nigel Coller was out there talking to to university, you know ornithologists, conservationists. He was sort of picking up on on the interest that, you know, university expeditions had for doing, you know, important stuff, and he was advising them on what they did and where they might go. And he'd initiated a number of, you know, great, university expeditions. And my close friends had sort of linked up with Nigel and, had gone on a couple of university expeditions. I didn't go myself, but I became aware of ICBP, and, I was recognizing I needed to do something a bit more useful than just go out and watch birds.

So I was I I undertook a number of, you know, studies overseas. I did some survey work in India and Pakistan, under the sort of loose guidance of ICBP. And then whilst I was away, I, through a great close friend Carolyn Skip, I reached out to ICBP and said, you know, I would be available to commit as a volunteer. And I was prepared to commit for, you know, 6 months and, make a reasonable, you know, commitment in terms of the amount of time I could give and the kind you know, and I was open to doing basically anything. And so how lucky was I that, I I was given the chance to volunteer for ICBP, and I came in at a at a time when the organization was just being established as a professional body.

And and there were some good good and useful things I could do and I I was taken on by Paul Gorriop, who's the program officer of ICBP at that time and you know I'm forever grateful for the support that Paul gave me and also Christophe InBoden who was the director general at, at ICBP at that time and Nigel Coller continuing to be such an influential as he is as indeed he is still now, an influential individual in in ICPP. So I took on various voluntary projects and was very fortunate to be in the right place at the right time when they identified something that, you know, could be done on a contract basis. And so 6 months in, I was given one contract and then another contract. And then I got my first break about, probably about 8 18 months into, you know, those, small contracts having done that lot of your work. And, I was I was taken on for on a on a sort of 2 year contract basis, I think.

And I I can say a bit more about what that was, but, that was the beginning of my my career. If if Yeah. And I heard you say I think some to me even actually, you say, wants to let you in. You never wanted to leave. That was it.

I took a view that I wasn't gonna take this opportunity lightly and, you know, to put it crudely, I was gonna dig a, you know, such a big hole that they couldn't get me out of it. And I I I obviously succeeded at least in, in in in in remaining involved. And, how that was possible, I don't know. You probably have to ask others, you know, how I played my cards and and and kept involved. But, yeah, I was able to stay involved.

I've been able to stay involved, ever ever since taking a number of, you know, major projects initially and then, being fortunate to be in the organization as it was growing. I feel I was part of steering that growth and, took on quite a few different assignments over the over the subsequent 40 years. What was BirdLife like 40 years ago? Because I remember when I started and this was 20 years ago now, people say, oh, it used to be people stood in an office. The letters were coming in the morning.

You just read your letters out that have come in from around the world, which was sent out weeks ago. You got responses back, and that was pre email. And I just what was it, you know, what was the what was it like? Yeah. Yeah.

So, obviously, it was office based. Yeah. And, most of it was by snail mail. Yeah. So, you know, air mail letters were were sent and received.

We had a, a Telex machine quite early on. So we were able to send, you know, Telexes, backwards and forwards between projects. But it was basically by snail mail, and, yeah, it was a small small team, Christophe Inboden as director general. Every day, we would meet as the staff. It was the entire staff, would meet, and we'd hold what was called a mail meeting.

And, we would basically, you know, talk about the mail we've received that day or maybe the phone call that we've had the previous day. And we'd sort of share that and talk it through. And, you know, if if guidance was needed on the response that would then be given, then, you know, Christophe or Paul or Nigel would have a very strong view on things, and, and we would proceed accordingly. So extraordinary. I mean, I remember very, very vividly.

I it's so clear in my mind. I remember Paul Goriam, you know, one of these mail meetings say, I need to tell you about this new piece of equipment that, you know, that life really needs to acquire. And he produced this brochure and he sort of threw it on the table and he said, it's called the fax. And he then went on to explain how, you know, it was possible to send letters over the telephone. And that was that was the beginning of the end of the mail meetings and it, of course, it was turbocharging communications.

You didn't have to wait for 2 weeks, for your exchange or the longer for your exchange of, airmail, letters. You know, you can't you get a you send the fax out and you get one back and, yes. It it it it it turbocharged conservation and then, of course, you know, email came in, what, probably a decade later, I suppose. Wasn't it? I'm not sure of timing exactly, but that that felt Yeah.

Revolutionized communications. And, you know, great times because the organization was small. It had only been established as a professional outfit in 79, I think it was. So I was there from 84. Mhmm.

It was it was good to be part of that, you know, small and rapidly growing organization. We'll talk about your career journey in a second. But what does BirdLife International look like now from those early days of ICBP to right now, a a flourishing international partnership of organizations? But, yeah, just filling the gaps. Yeah.

Changed fundamentally in terms of its structure. So it was it it was like the UN for bird conservation when I joined. It was a it had a very, you know, significant global standing. If, you know, if you were if you were a minister of the environment, you know, in in a in a country and and you got a letter from, you know, ICBP asking that something be done or concern that something bad was happening, you you you took note of it. And, you know, it really did feel like we were this, you know, body with considerable global standing that had considerable influence, but it was a it was a very complicated structure.

So, we were the secretariat, and each in most countries, they were what were called national sections. And they themselves were federations of, you know, governmental and nongovernmental bodies that made up the the the section. So in the UK, for example, you know, the RSPB, the BTO, the Army Birdwatching Society, the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust, then, you know, the government, the the the hunting and whatever it was called, the, I'm not sure if I also remember the name, but the, you know, the Hunting and Choosing Association, the Game Conservancy Council, I think, was a member. And then you've got the the statutory, you know, nature conservation. What was it?

NCC, nature conservation. Yeah. That's just one country you described in that. Yeah. That was country.

So what it meant was at the country level, it was very difficult to reach a consensus on the most, you know, important issues because you'd have government, you'd have, you know, the hunting and shooting interests, you'd have the bird protections interests, and so it was really difficult. So the revolution that happened was that, birdlife became a a partnership where each of the, leading bird protection nature conservation organizations became the sole partner of bird life. And that was a that was an extraordinary transition because it meant that each of the sections had to be dis you know, disband, had to disband voluntary voluntarily, and and and one organization then emerged as the as the bird life partner, and and that in the UK was, was the RSPB. So it was a big change in terms of structure, And that has that has continued. We remain as the secretariat, but BurLife International is the partnership.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing growth.

When you look at your journey going from intern to conservation director and now your current role, what what have been the highlights for you as you as you look back at your career? Are there specific moments that you think have been really pivotal, or are there moments that stand out as as important to you? I mean, if if we go back to those early days, I I was so fortunate to have the opportunity to be given responsibility for bringing together information on important bird areas across Europe. So over a period of, well, it's probably 3 years in the end, but, I with Tim Jones at, IWRB, International Waterfowl and Land Research Bureau, we pulled together, working through national coordinators, all of the available information on all of the important bird areas across the whole of Europe. And that was the first time that information had been brought together.

And so that included sort of reaching out, you know beyond the iron curtain as it was in those days so working with the Soviet Union, orthologists in the Soviet Union, orthologists in Romania and Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia and other parts of Europe that were, you know, otherwise separated by by the upper and the iron curtain. And, yeah, we pulled together, you know, what was widely accepted to be a very comprehensive inventory. And the reason why this was particularly important was that the European Union had adopted the, wild birds directive. One of the obligations of member states was to take, special protection measures for, species on the on annex 1 of the birds directive, and that included, you know, the designation of so called special protection areas. And so the the IBA inventory was viewed as the, you know, the reference point for that.

And, it was argued that, you know, first of all, governments needed to know where those areas were, and here was ICPP telling them where they were. Mhmm. And then, you know, the European Commission then needed the a reference point to know whether member states is is sufficiently designated enough special protection areas to meet their obligations under the wild burst directive. So European Commission used our work as a, you know, as an important reference, including when they were when they felt they needed to bring legal cases before the European court, you know, charging member states for not having done enough to implement the directive. So it became a really important, reference point eventually for the designation of of, special protection areas across Europe, and that was the forerunner to the, designation of of the nature of a 2,000 network.

So we we provided a, in my view, a very substantial, you know, input to that whole process. So that was that was an extraordinary opportunity and break for me in, you know, in an at an early point in my career. And it happened at a time when Europe was, you know, undergoing major, you know, political changes, you know, the Soviet Union fell apart, the iron curtain was no more, and so it was a great opportunity then to reach out to, you know, bird protectionists, bird conservationists in those countries that, you know, in many cases didn't have a, a bird conservation organization and so I was able to, you know, build off the contacts I've made in those countries, to support those, individuals to to set up bird conservation organizations. And so we helped to set them up in Poland, in Romania, in Bulgaria, in the Czech Republic, just as examples. And so I became quite involved in in that support to, you know, emerging civil society in, you know, both in the east of Europe I'm just gonna pause the recording there, guys.

What was it like being the director of conservation at BirdLife International? Like, for someone who doesn't know the role and know the work you did, like, just paint a bit of an honest picture as to what that job was like, if you could, please.

I mean, just in terms of responsibilities. So I I have been responsible or I should say I was responsible for our conservation programs. So that's renting extinctions, flyways equals migratory birds, forests, climate, and marine. And so I I was responsible for the oversight of those programs and a team of people delivering on those programs. Much of the deliveries or almost all of the deliveries by the birdlife partners and the support they get comes from the from the regional offices of of the secretariat.

So, you know, I'm I'm sort of 2 or 3 steps removed often from what's actually happening on the ground, but I, you know, was fortunate to have fortunate enough to have the opportunity to, you know, be involved more directly in a number of our bigger bigger initiatives. But, you know, it it at that level, it becomes a lot about, you know, strategy, management, particularly funding. So, you know, the conservation sector is generally speaking not well resourced. And so you you, you know, you've got to mobilize resources. You've got to be going after, you know, trusts and foundations, trying to convince, you know, individuals, you're trying to, you know, mobilize philanthropic support and, also, you know, reaching out to corporates and exploring opportunities for areas of common interest with the with the private sector.

So there's a lot of there's a lot of fundraising involved. You obviously got a lot of personnel management involved. You're also, you know, a director of of BirdLife International. So you've got a role, in terms of the, you know, the the the senior management of the organization. So, you know, strategy, budgets, work plans, you know, troubleshooting on on, you know, any major issues arising.

You're one of the team. But at various stages I've, you know, I've had to lean in on on whether it be institutional fundraising or international policy or, you know, managing, some of our regional operations or or managing the regional directors of our regional operations. So it's a lot of that sort of stuff. And I I tried to keep involved, you know, where I could, you know, with with things that are happening on the ground, and, you know, made sure I I stayed in touch with know, some of some of our bigger projects. I tried to take the opportunity where I could to, you know, to go and see what was happening on the ground.

And so I sort of maintained that, you know, that that that reasonable understanding of the reality of the of the operating environment on the ground. But, yeah, a lot and and this is where, you know, back to my point about I didn't want a job where I was out in the field watching birds the whole time. It it it could say it's the it's my ideal job to be doing all of that for this really important cause, but keeping it, you know, keeping my birding enthusiasm, you know, to one side as a as a as a pastime rather than as a as a job. So, yeah. What what I've also been responsible for our corporate engagement.

So, I've overseen our biodiversity in business partnerships. We have a number of big corporate partner partnerships with with Rio Tinto and with Heidelberg Materials and and Maurice Niebuhdrola. So I've I've managed the team that has, partnered those big those big corporates. I think that's been very productive and and very worthwhile. Obviously, some some, you know, view it otherwise, but I've been very supportive of that area of work.

And, I've also managed our teams that run the regional implementation teams for the Critical League Assistant Partnership, which is a a grant making body for civil society. So we we run the regional implementation team for the Mediterranean, and that means, you know, over a 5 year period, you know, grant making to civil society. So the value of about 10 10,000,000 US dollars. So running quite sophisticated, well developed grant grant management mechanisms in support of, civil society doing, you know, important things for, for for for biodiversity conservation. So, yeah, that's that's that's the sum of it, I think.

Busy job. Lots of lots of different areas. Sounds like the Swiss Army knife. I mean, you need so many different skill sets. I might be sort of guessing here, but it feels like the work you've done early in your career helps you later in your career in terms of understanding the realities on the ground.

It's quite easy to be disconnected, I think, at the sector areas when you had 2 or 3 steps removed. But Yep. Having that understanding and staying connected, visiting sites feels important to you and and what you've done. What, what well, did you did you enjoy your job as director of international conservation, and what were some of your frustrations you might wanna share? Yeah.

I I just if you don't mind there, I just wanna comment on that earlier point. So I think what I've done is, you know, I've moved in the organization. I've decided at various points in my career, I probably can't do very much more in this area. I I want to change. And so I've made a number of major changes.

And, you know, after that work I've just described in Europe, I became the head of our Asia program and I based myself in Asia for a decade, 5 years in Indonesia, 5 years in Japan. And, you know, the the point you're making there is that, you know, you really it really helps to have that understanding of, you know, the different dimensions to an organization. You know, I've I've been in charge of our work in Asia. I've run our operations in Japan. I've seen, you know, in Indonesia, I was directly involved in the implementation of, you know, of complex, you know, projects.

And so, you know, the moves I've made, meant that I, I've got that experience, you know, not only geographically, but but thematically and across all aspects of running, you know, running an operation. I suppose if I was to advise people, you know, you can either move out of an organization and take on and build that experience by going to work for somebody else, and you might wanna come back at some point. It's always a possibility. Or you can move within an organization, but there are various points where you need to make go with your gut feeling that now's the time. You've you've run your course on something.

Now's the time to make a move and take on a new challenge, do something different, except there are risks involved in that. But it means that you you you build up a body of experience. If if you have a career in mind, and I don't think I've ever really thought, you know, I wanna be chief executive and therefore I need to do all these things, but just means that you're you're very well positioned to to adjust as organizations change and take on different responsibilities within an organization. And so take if I could offer advice, take that take those opportunities when you think the time is right. Make those moves when you think the time is right.

That's really interesting. It it I I feel similar myself in terms of I chose to leave bird life whenever it was 10 years ago now and and to And I would say you were mad, but you yeah. But but you weren't. You know? You you went with yeah.

You went with your gut. And, Yeah. But I think what I reflected on now is that I felt there was sort of 3 or 4 year cycles where year 1 was new job, new role, everything's exciting, new learning challenge, thriving growth. Year 2, maybe year 3, getting good at it, being competent, being comfortable. Maybe year 3, maybe year 4, maybe getting a bit bored, to be honest, and wanting a new challenge, and it's sort of it's it's noticing that, isn't it, and thinking when is the time to move.

You just Sometimes it's circumstance. You don't you know, it's not like you sort of mapped everything out and you got this master plan. You sometimes it's circumstance. Sometimes you have to you have to make these things happen yourself. Yeah.

Put yourself forward, you know, identify a a role that you can play Yeah. Without being too too pushy. But back sorry. What was your original question? Well, did you enjoy your role as conservation director?

Yeah. I enjoy it. What were the challenges? What were the what were the downsides you'd like to share just in terms of in the context of transparency, really, is what these sorts Yeah. I mean, I mean, obviously, very, very heavy workload.

Yeah. A lot of pressure particularly, you know, when it comes to, you know, resource mobilization, raising money. There's there's there's never a dull moment. I mean, on the positive, you know, I can say after 40 years, I've never been bored in my job, and and I remain, thankfully, you know, highly motivated and committed. You know, there are times when you think, god, I'm really running out of steam here.

You know, I can't keep going. And I suppose I got to a point where I felt that was possibly getting the better of me and it was at that point that I thought, okay, I've run I've run my course as conservation director. You know, I'm not sure I have got the the the energy levels, the, you know, the ability to to do another round, you know, budgets and work plans and fundraising and things. As much as it's so critically important and I I thought, okay, Now's the time to perhaps step down, step back a bit, and the time for somebody else to you know, the cause is so great, so important. The last thing you would want would be to sort of be at the wheel but not not, you know, not giving it the 100% that it needs to, to to to address the issue.

So, I might what about there's nothing that I would say that there shouldn't be any there's no surprises really. It is a lot of hard work and there were some stressful moments and you know you the judgments you've made sometimes you look back and think oh, was that the right, you know, was that the right decision? And you know were the consequences, they were quite what I had expected and you you live with some of those regrets. And so you you know you do want to come out of a situation where you've kept them you know, a minimum, the the regrets that you might carry for, you know, for the rest of rest of your life. And, that requires I'm not sure I've always shown it, but it requires, you know, discipline and and and respect and, taking care of of the the situation and your colleagues around you and and not throwing your toys out with a, you know, with a pram, because you will regret that.

And I always try to sort of avoid that sense of regret. Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent there, but that's something to to share perhaps that, yeah, try to try to, you know, show respect, put yourself in the position that others are finding themselves in. How would you handle it? How would you hope that your boss would handle it if if, if the if the roles were reversed? And, try and do, you know, try and be as to try try and, you know, be as show as much integrity as you as you can in, in the role that you play.

Integrity, empathy. Empathy. Yeah. Recognizing it is damn difficult. You know?

So being reasonable in terms of expectations, being careful about people's workloads, that's something I've sometimes not not done enough to do, but being respectful of, you know Including yourself. Yeah. They struggle with workloads and they need help and and they shouldn't feel I've always said to people, I will have no problem you coming to tell me I'm struggling here? I've got, you know, I've got too much on my plate. I've I've dropped the ball here.

We've got some problems. I've no problem with any of that. What what I would struggle with is if I wasn't being told I haven't got the time to to to react to it and help manage it, that's when I would find it a little bit more difficult. So that's one thing I've always said to my team. Just, my door is always open.

I'm always happy to hear what the issues are. I'll do my best to help get out of any, you know, difficult situations, whether it be workload or Yeah. Or problems that we find ourselves in, but don't hide them from me because, that's that's more serious. Yeah. And so important.

And I think in conservation, not necessarily uniquely, but certainly in passion led organizations, people are almost too willing to go the extra mile, I think, you know, in terms of their own health and well-being because they're in it for the cause. It's not about the paycheck often. It's because they really care about what they're doing. So where those boundaries sit can really become quite elastic, I think, which can be dangerous over time. Yeah.

I'm conscious of time. We've got a few people listening who I'm sure would like to ask questions yourself after our recording. So, few more questions I'd like to ask if I may. One is, speaking really to, like, career switches within our audience. So we have a number of people who, you know, work in in slightly unrelated sectors.

They're possibly mid career. They're looking to change, and they'd love to work for an organization like BirdLife or, or another. Do you see do you see, careers which has been hired within conservation? Are they bringing useful skill sets with them? How have you sort of has that changed over time?

You sort of answer that as you will, but I'd love to hear your your reflections on, you know, these people who are possibly coming from corporates or other areas who are who are entering the sector. I mean, the first thing to say is that, you know, so much of we do so much of what we do is, you know, is is running a, you know, an efficient and well resourced and well managed operation. And so, you know, there's a whole set of skills there from, you know, HR to IT to finance to, you know, governance and management. So there are lots of folk in birdlife that, you know, have come to birdlife, you know, through, you know, very different, you know, earlier, you know, employment, and and career situations. So birdlife, you know, is keen to attract highly committed and skilled people in the whole range of of of areas of work.

And so it's not like we're all, you know, crazy crazy birders, you know, experienced in nature conservation. There's there's so much that happens that's that's not that. But, even in those areas, you know, I mean, if I just take, you know, the the well, take the work I was responsible for. So, you know, business engagement. We need to have people who understand the business sector.

You know, rather understand what makes companies tick, what companies, you know, obligations and commitments and aspirations are. Because if we want to partner with them, we have to we have to relate to where they're coming from and why we might be of interest to them. And so that perspective is is valuable just by way of example. Just understand the culture and even the language. Yeah.

That's right. I mean, and also, you know, the whole whole sort of the whole sort of financing conservation side of things now where, you know, we're gonna have to move away from a dependency on philanthropic support to aligning more more sort of centrally with other other forms of of conservation finance, whether that might be in relation to carbon, whether it might be in relation to offsets, whether it in the future might be relation to in relation to the biodiversity credits. You know, all of those have, you know, there's a controversy, some differing perspectives surrounding all of those. But, you know, you need people who can help structure, projects, can help, you know, manage them from a sort of, financing and and and, you know, delivery against metrics point of view, you know, that have experienced, you know, developing projects, you know, that are in in, in line with what the business community is looking for and then you've got to match it with where BirdLife's strategic interests and priorities lie. So I suppose in a in a in a roundabout way, I'm saying that there's a lot that, you know, a BirdLife is looking for that isn't isn't what you would, you know, first think we were looking for.

Obviously the challenge is getting getting in front of and getting you through the door to to to have an opportunity to put it you know put yourself forward. But yeah, there's there's there's, you know, quite a few of my team who who who have that background or, rather than, you know, let's say my my my my background. Yeah. That's really, really interesting. Yeah.

Starting to wrap up then, I'd like to ask you just a few kind of more open questions if I might. So one being a short question. I'd be interested to hear what you say. If we could take you to one place in the planet and you could see one species, where would you go, and what would you hope to be hope to see? I I could I could give you a different answer on a different day, but I think my my most likely answer would be it would be into the northwest Himalayas, and it would be to to be up in the high Himalayas, and it would be to look for the Western Tragopan.

I I say that because that's some of the first sort of serious fieldwork I did. And, with a friend of mine, Craig Robson, we we rediscovered the population of the species in the northwest frontier province of Pakistan. But I never saw a male very well. I only saw one, you know, fleetingly as it was flushed and and for ever since then I've thought I've got to see a male western tragopan in full view, you know, on the forest floor in in the western Himalaya. So that's my answer to that question.

But there's so many other amazing things that one hopes one might see, but I hear a bit about the carbon the carbon budget these days. Yeah. Yes. Interesting. Oh, amazing.

When we look at wildlife conservation more generally, not just birds, but wildlife more generally and globally, we see that we're winning some battles, but we're we're generally losing the war. There's lots of doom and gloom. We look at almost any report and showing the kind of slow degradation of wildlife, you know, year on year. What what do we as a conservation sector need to be better at or do more of if we're going to turn this around properly? No.

That's a really, really challenging question. I suppose you've you'd have to say that we've got to be better at making the case, so going beyond, our, you know, our sort of obvious supporters, you know, we've we've got to be more effective at making the case that, you know, that nature conservation matters. And, you know, it's the broader arguments for why it matters, you know, our our well-being, you know, the the dependence on, you know, the of the of the of the economy, on, you know, the services of nature, obviously, the whole issue of climate change, you know, for a variety of reason. You know, it it ultimately might be a matter of the continued survival of humankind on planet Earth in a civilized form. You know, we are we are at risk of, you know, a climate breakdown and and and social social and economic breakdown.

So it matters. So we're gonna make that case, much better than we do at the moment. And then you and that's obviously, you know, not just to to to the general public, but to to politicians, to to influencers, to decision makers. And then and then there's then there's, you know, engagement with the private sector whether we like it or not. The the world is turning based on, you know, the economic activity driven by the private sector, driven by investment.

And we've got to do more to to to change that and and make the case that, you know, nature nature conservation counts, you know, as part of the over economic sustainability of of a both business activity, and, that means influencing, you know, businesses, business leaders, invest investors. There's a lot more to do there. I don't know that continuing to bang away at governments is is gonna make a lot more difference than it has done. That's where there's been a lot of success in getting, you know conservation agreements in place and and you know conventions on climate and biodiversity and desertification and other such things you know sort of the architecture is there but the the commitment is just not there. The mindset is just it's just not shifted.

So we've just gotta keep working away at that. And then in parallel, we've got to show that, you know, positive things and we are doing that, of course. We're doing all of this, working hard on all of this, but, you know, we gotta show that nature conservation can be successful. You can, you know, prevent extinctions. You can restore populations.

You can recover habitats. You can create new habitats. You know, there's lots of hugely positive stuff and that and that shows that it is possible. And and and we can all play a part in that. You know, that might be getting involved in a, you know, in a in a in a local restoration project, you know, volunteering, supporting the work of our you know local Itchy conservation charities, the wildlife trusts or the RSPB, you know we can all get involved in a hands on way and that's that's a valuable contribution as well.

And and actually so that's something I want to devote a little more time to to, you know, doing more volunteering for the RSPB. Probably not trial planting trees but, you you know, helping them with surveys and things. So, yeah, I could go on about all the things that we need to do better, but, this is just a few for you. Right. Well, I think on that hopeful positive note, actually, about how conservation works and how you're gonna be dusting off your binoculars even more, thank you, Richard, for sharing your time with us and your thoughts.

Really appreciate it. Thanks for jumping on the podcast. Really nice to reconnect as well personally. We'll wrap up there, and we'll open up to our audience who want to ask their questions of you, I'm sure. But, yeah, Richard, all the best in your new role, and I look forward to hearing how things gonna pan out for you.

Thanks a lot. It's been a pleasure.