Connecting to your clients on an emotional level builds trust and impacts their lives--and your business. Brendan Frazier, founder of Wired Planning and host of "The Human Side of Money" podcast, discusses how having emotionally connected clients leads to more valuable financial advice.

John, it's interesting when I speak with financial professionals and they share with me a bit about their client discovery and engagement process, there are so many great questions, and oftentimes financial professionals have even solidified that line of questioning, if you will, into a great document so that they make sure they're covering all the bases. But it's interesting, I think oftentimes those, those documents sometimes drive the process and maybe some of the emotional connection is missed. I don't know if you've come across that in any conversations that you've had with financial professionals over time.

I have Julie and I, I think one of the more interesting ideas I've heard about, which actually our, our podcast interview with Brendan Frazier reminded me of this, is that sometimes advisors actually use that form, not as something to hand to the client to be filled out, but they almost use it as a discussion guide, right? So all the discovery processes, we're trying to learn more about family or about health conditions or about, uh, income needs or spending patterns or whatever it is. But if we know we're headed there and instead had a conversation about it, how much more info could we lean from that? Then simply the, just the facts, ma'am, you know, that comes out on those forms.

Well, and I think Brendan will share with us today some ideas about how to make some small adjustments to that document or that conversation to ultimately really connect with clients or prospects on a much more emotional level.

Julie, why don't you tell everyone a little bit about our guest today? Julie Genjac (01:40):

Brendan Frazier is the founder of Wired Planning, the host of the Human Side of Money podcast, a keynote speaker and was named one of Investi Expedia's top 100 financial advisors. He's building a global community and training program for advisors to master the human side of advice, enhanced their clients' lives, and forever change the trajectory of their business.

So, Julie, let's share with our listeners the conversation we have with Brendan Frazier about how to build trust and connection with clients on the human side of advice. Hi, I'm John.

And I'm Julie.

We're the hosts of the Harford Funds Human-Centric Investing podcast. Julie Genjac (02:22):

Every other week we're talking with inspiring thought leaders to hear their best ideas for how you can transform your relationships with your clients.

Let's go.

Welcome Brendan to the Human-Centric Investing Podcast. We're so happy to have you here with us today.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks. Thanks for this opportunity. I'm excited. John Diehl (02:42):

So, Brendan, you talk about the human side of advice. What exactly in your mind is the human side of advice?

Yeah, that's always a fun popular, but also appropriate place to start, I think, uh, cuz it's kinda like, Hey, if you throw this term out there, it seems all encompassing, what does it actually mean? But I think it's the best way I know of to try to explain or try to cong combine all these different elements that go into the non-technical non number side of planning and working with clients day in, day out. So you may hear, you may have heard of phrases like behavioral finance, right? You may have heard of, um, psychology and financial planning, but even those I don't think fully incorporate or I don't feel, I never felt like they did a great job of telling me exactly what it is and incorporating all the things that I wanted to know, again, specifically around how do I deal? Not how do I not just master the numbers side of this, but how do I learn about how to deal with the people side and these actually, uh, these emotional human beings on an emotionally charged topic of money?

And so to me it was a behavioral finance was a sliver of that, the psychology of, of finance, the psychology of money, financial psychology. It's a piece of that. But it, it was never all encompassing enough. Like they're all still crucial components. They're all still crucial elements. So the human side of advice, the best way I know how to describe it is just to say that it's the, it it's everything that you need to know about dealing with emotional human beings on the emotionally charged topic of money. The part that, the things that you don't get taught in trainings, designations, and certifications that actually make a difference. So a lot of it's stuff that we already know, like, how do I actually communicate in a way that gets somebody to open up to me and talk to me and tell me the personal, intimate details of their life as if I'm one of their best friends.

And we've had a couple bottles of wine, right? That's part of the human side that you don't get taught. You're supposed to go do this planning, you're supposed to go do this great work and use your technical knowledge, but a lot of that's contingent on how much information you can get from the person to know how to do that. But nobody teaches you exactly how to do that. It could be, um, how do I uncover what's truly most important in somebody's life, right? Like, I remember people, I remember, uh, hearing all the time like, Hey, ask really good questions, build rapport, find out what, what matters to people. Uh, and I would sit there and go, yeah, that's a, that's that's what this is all about. I get that. I'm on board with that. And then you sit there for a second, you're like, yeah, but wait a minute.

How do I do that? Because it's not gonna, the things that I'm learning about asset allocation, the things that I'm learning about tax strategies don't help me uncover what's truly driving somebody in their life. And then the the last piece that I always say is like, nobody really tells you we, we know how to give advice. We know how to tell people what to do. We don't know how to change behavior. And the ability to change human behavior requires, requires a completely different skill set than the ability to crunch numbers, build a financial plan, and build a porfolio. So I usually, there's a lot that goes into it, but the three core pillars that I've sort of tried to distill it down into to make it easy and digestible for advisors is there's building trust and connection and communication skills that go into that. There's how do you uncover what's truly most important in somebody's lives? The what, the, their values that their, their emotions, everything that's behind the money. And then there's the ability to change behavior and give advice in a way where people actually follow through and implement it. And maybe the overarching over overall that is the stuff that has to do with people and not numbers.

It's so interesting, Brendan, it kind of takes me back to the old adage that we've all heard a million times in the industry. You know, clients don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

And obviously this is so much more than that. But, you know, I think I, I my guess as our listeners are saying, okay, I've bought in, I I like it. Now tell me how to do this, right? Because so many have probably been trying to crack this code for, you know, a decade or many decades in the business. Where, where do, where do we start when we think about this emotional connection? What, what's step number one in your mind?

Well, it's really funny, first of all that you mentioned that phrase, people don't care what you know until they know how much you care. Because that was literally one of the ones that always bothered me because I would sit there and like I just described, I would say, yeah, exactly, totally agree. Fully bought in. I I agree with you a hundred percent. J j literally, like, I had this knowledge and then I would try to tell people about it, and it was like, I was like, no, no, no, but look, I, we can do this Roth conversion if we do it. Look how much more money you're gonna have later on. Like, I learned the lesson the hard way where it's like, wait, hang, hang on. They need to know how much I care before they care what I know, right? So, but then I sat there and was like, wait a minute, but like, how do I show somebody how much I care now?

It seems easy. We have ways that we think work, but what if there was way, what if there were ways that like science-backed, research backed, evidence-based methods that we know actually convey that we care, that actually build trust that are core to communication and getting people to open up and trust you and connect with you. Nobody ever talked about that. They just assumed that we should know how to show somebody how much we care, right? But then, and then, so the second piece, that's where this whole thing kind of was initiated was my frustration with everybody says this, no one tells you how to do it. So it's funny you asked that because that's what prompted, uh, this whole, everything that, that I'm doing at this point is trying to help advisors say, Hey, I know that there are ways to do these things. I know that the answers are out there.

Oftentimes they exist in fields outside of financial services. So you have to go look at behavior change, behavior science. You have to look at communication skills. You have to look at psychology, you have to look at emotions. There's things that hostage negotiations and therapists know that we don't know, but we need to know. So the answers are out there. And so my whole mission all along has been to say, all right, the answers are there. Let's go find the answers, bring it back, and apply it to financial planning and financial advice so that you can use a day in and day out with your clients so that tomorrow you can have a better conversation with your clients than you did today. Cuz there are ways to do that. So to answer your question about how, I mean, we probably need, I don't know. I mean, we, we, right now I'm in the middle of an eight week group program where we're just going over the three core pillars, right?

And it feels like we're already squeezing too much information in. But I will say this, the biggest mistake that I see advisors make is not doing the right things. It's doing the right things in the wrong order as sequencing is everything. And what I mean by that is you'll have, and I did this, it's why I know, like I, I would hear what I thought was a great question. So I would hear somebody say, Hey, I asked this question to my clients, to my prospects. It's part of my, my onboarding process. And we all love a good question. So I would try using the question didn't go the way that I thought it would, it didn't bomb. But I remember being like, oh man, I really thought I'd get a better answer now. I really thought this was gonna be more powerful than that. And then you kind of sit there and you're like, all right, well, I guess it didn't work for me.

Well, it's not that it wasn't a great question, and it's not that you weren't conducting the meeting the right way. It's just you didn't know how to ask a great question. You didn't know what made it a great question. You didn't know how to incorporate it in the bigger picture, to ask it at the right time for maximum impact. So when I say sequencing is everything, the best way I know how to answer, how do you do it is doing it in the right order. And the start, the the starting point for all of this, in my opinion, what I've found, what I've discovered is getting the right mindset around the human side, understanding that it's not just about the numbers, that it's about people. And then from there, focusing first and foremost on communication skills and building trust and building connection. Because if you have this trust and this the connection foundation laid in the relationship, then when you go to ask these questions, they're gonna feel more comfortable, more open, and tell you the things that you actually wanna know. So it wasn't that I was asking a bad question, it's that I was doing it in the wrong order and that the client wasn't ready to gimme the kind of answer that I had heard this advisor say on the podcast that he got from the client one time, right? So you sit there, Andre, like, why am I not getting the same response? Why isn't I gonna say, well, it's because I was taking it out of context and taking it out of order. John Diehl (10:20):

So Brendan, let's say as a financial professional, I'm meeting a client for a first time. Where do you often direct people to start? Right? So leave the questions by the wayside for a moment and talk to me just about generally speaking, uh, client comes in, expects that I'm gonna be able to help them financially. How do I transition or where do I start the conversation towards gaining more of this human side? You mentioned using communication to build trust and connection. Are there some core components of doing that?

Yeah. Okay. So I'd love this question. It's almost like, you know me, you know how to get me going because now I'm sitting here going, all right, hang on, I'm gonna have to try to get this out there and this is what I get passionate about, right? Uh, so what we know from research, what we know from the experts in the industry, what I've heard over and over and over again, uh, when I have guests on the podcast, is the number one mistake, number one communication mistake the majority of advisors make is they talk too much. And so if you're thinking to yourself, okay, how do I right outta the gate, if I have a, if I'm having a meeting with somebody, let's call it, not a quiet but a prospect, maybe it's the very first time you've ever talked to 'em. Maybe you've talked to 'em, you had a good screening call, you figured out that they're a good fit, they think they're gonna, they think that you're gonna be a good fit for them and their family, and now you're in the next step of getting to know and uncovering what's most important to 'em.

Either one of those phases, no matter where you're at, the most important thing you can do is make it more about them than it is about you. They don't really care about your process, your services, your credentials, and your experience. What they want to know is, do I like you? Do I trust you? And do I feel certain that you can deliver the outcome that I'm looking for? Can you solve the pain point that I have? And news flash, by the way, and I say this sar, I say it sarcastically now because we all know these things, but I've made all these same mistakes, so it's not coming from a higher place by any means. But we all think that we go into this first meeting and we need to tell 'em about, here, here's my background, here's what I've done, here's what I work with, here's how we help people.

And it, that's completely normal and completely natural. What we find out from Moira Summers wrote the book Advice that Sticks. And there she says that the number one predictor of client satisfaction in a first meeting is not your service, your process, how great you are in the amount of experience you have.

It's the amount of air time that they get, the amount of air time that the prospect gets to talk about themselves, to feel understood, to feel like you know their problems, and that you can solve their problems for 'em. Now, that doesn't mean, right, here's the question I get all the time. Okay, Brenda? Yeah, yeah, I get that, that sounds good. But like, ultimately I have to say something, right? How, how are they gonna know I can help 'em if I don't get, if I don't get to talk, if I'm just letting them talk the whole time?

And, and what I always say is, that doesn't mean you don't talk. If you don't talk, you're never gonna get a client. Like you're better off talking all the time than not talking at all. But you have to find the right time and place to talk. And you do that by first focusing on them, letting them feel heard and understood. And what we know about listening and listening research is that when somebody feels listen to, they're more likely to listen to you. And so that's the most important thing I need you to do, is go in with this focus on, I'm gonna make this about them, learn about them. I need to know more about them and why they're here, what their pain points are, make them feel heard and understood. And then when the time's right, I'll ask permission to share how we can help and what we do.

Now, there's one other thing I want to add to that, which is it also this whole thing, like that sounds all well and good, but how do you do that? It starts first and foremost with the right mindset and the mindset of, I'm not the hero of this meeting. I'm the, I'm just the guide. I'm not the hero. I'm the facilitator. I'm a collaborator, and I want them to feel like I'm here to help them, not to tell them what to do, not to be the hero in their story. And so, it's so funny, people, I say this all the time and you, I come, sometimes I get these looks like, yeah, I get that. That sounds so simple. But most people don't do it.

Most people don't take five minutes before their meeting to remind themselves, Hey, I need to, I need to talk 80, I need to talk 20% of the time. Listen, 80% of the time, I'm not the hero. I'm here to guide the conversation. And once you start doing that, it's funny how often people reach out to me, Hey Brendan, I tried that. I was a little skeptical. I tried it and my, my conversations are going way better than they ever have.

It's, it's interesting. Brendan, when you think about just the, that initial discovery process, just as an example of all of the, the themes that you've mentioned. You know, I, I've had financial professionals show me some really beautiful forms. I mean, they would bring a tear to your eye. I mean, they are really well constructed or really nice questions, but how do you take that from, you know, so the client walks in and is expecting that, or I think so many of you know, we've been through this so many times in our life, you know, what's your, tell me about your family. What's your profession? What's your desire of your time? You know, these very, maybe we'll call 'em even somewhat clinical questions. How does a financial professional start to shift that? If they've been using this form, right, and they've been collecting the information, and probably in a, in a, a professional way, uh, maybe some conversations go a little bit deeper than others, but how, how does that shift start to happen again for someone that says, you know what, I'm ready to abandon my form that maybe has served me well for the last decade.

I do wanna do this differently. Where does that mindset shift happen and how, how does one engage in that conversation?

Yeah, so that's a question that I've never gotten before and I think is a fantastic question. And I know all the podcasts, all the advisors I've worked, no one's ever just specifically asked that question. It comes up indirectly. So first of all, props for, uh, I love great questions. And that to me, that's a great question. So,

um, and from what I've learned doing it myself, but also working with advisors, is that the very first and foremost, you don't have to abandon what you've been doing because for the most part, the form you have the sheet, you have the information you've been gathering, you've been gathering it for a reason, right? You are not trying to, you're not going out trying to get as much random information as possible. You're probably, you probably have on there the things that you need that you think are important so you don't abandon it.

What you've been doing altogether, what you're doing is you're going through and saying, Hey, how, what can I add to this to amplify the experience? Now, the problem's gonna be, if I add some things to this, am I gonna have too much? Are we gonna have enough time? Is there gonna be too long of a meeting? Is it gonna be asking too much of the client? So there may come a point where you sit there and you're like, okay, I want to add these three questions. I wanna gather these three things from the client. Uh, if I did that, it would literally take two and a half hours. So what, what do I need to remove that's already in there? That's not as impacful as what I have. That's the first piece, is recognizing that you're not, you don't have to take it out. You don't have to start from scratch.

You already have something that works, that you're comfortable with, and you don't want to get away from what's comfortable. It's a matter of adapting it to start incorporating some of the things that you want to incorporate cuz you believe that they're powerful things that make a difference in the lives of your clients and in the communication that you're having with them. And then this, the biggest barrier that I see is people feeling hesitant, uh, to do that because they're comfortable. They, they've said, Hey, I've done this for so long, I have a process, I'm good with it. And so they're like, why would I mess with it? I get the benefit of it, but I'm kind of, I get nervous about what kind of responses I'm gonna get. I'm getting nervous about how it's gonna go. So the the biggest battle you have to face after you've decided what to add to your form after you've decided what you wanted to incorporate into the conversation, the biggest barrier you're gonna face is getting yourself excited and primed and ready to actually follow through and do it. And that takes a little practice to say some confidence, certainly to say, all right, I believe in why I'm doing this. And you almost have to go into the first time you ever do it, knowing like, it's not gonna be perfect. It's not gonna be great, but I can get better. What happens? The feedback that I get from advisors, it's like, yeah, I wasn't great, but it was still way better than what I was doing before.

So, Brendan, that, that initial transition into this human side, what does it look like in terms of, so, uh, we interviewed Michael Kites last year for one of our podcast episodes, and he suggested a question, something along the lines of kinda what, what brings you in today? Almost like, what was the motive?

What's the, what's the primary motivation? But like, as I think about it as a financial professional, you may be sitting there thinking, what do I say? Do I say like, tell me about yourself? Or do I say like, what, what's some of the more effective questions to get us launched? After I said, okay, I really want to do this. I'm gonna focus on a couple of key pieces of information, but how do I really take that first step? What do I do?

So yeah, my, that question from from Michael's a, a great one. It's what I call the staple question. So I'm gonna come back to that in a second. But, okay, the first thing you wanna do to start any conversation, if you're trying to get, again, somebody you may not know super well or even people that you do know well, what you want to do is you wanna try to get them out of their head and comfortable and into the, a flow of a conversation. You wanna get 'em out of their head and into something emotional where they're getting started, where you're priming them to open up the conversational flow. Most people think when

that happens, that that person just woke up on the side, the right side of the bed, they had a cup of coffee, and the stars align that day, right? Like, man, that was a good conversation.

That person was really talking and chatting and like, you just think that it was by happenstance. And sometimes you'll have people that they're just the talkers and you don't have to do much that we all know. Everybody probably has multiple people that are like that. But the, what's fun, what's interesting, where it gets really, where it gets really, uh, I guess fun's the best word, is when you start realizing that you can get almost anybody to that point. But to get 'em to that point, you have to be really, really intentional about how you start the conversation. You have to ask questions in the beginning and what I call the trust zone, the first five to 10 minutes of a conversation you have to ask the three e questions, questions that are easy, ex easy to answer, they're exciting to answer, and they have an emotional or an engaging component to 'em.

For example, say I worked with business owners, uh, I've worked with a business owner maybe for three years. Say, Hey, you know what, uh, Mr. Client, we've been working together for a while. We've done a lot of work together and I know you have this awesome business. Like, uh, you're, you get, you're thriving, you're doing great. This beyond your wildest dreams where you thought it was gonna be. But I realized I never really, I never thought to ask, where did the business start? Where did the idea even get born to start that business? Right? Where were you when this idea popped into your head? And guess what, it's easy because they've told the story before. It's exciting cuz you get to talk about yourself and something you're passionate about and it's emotional because you're getting to reflect back on your past. And so you get that person talking about that right out of the gate, and you've primed the conversational pump to create flow so that later in the conversation when you're asking questions like, Hey, what's important about money to you?

What do you value most in life? Those types of questions you're gonna get in infinitely better answers because you've created the flow and the connection early on. So that's what the first thing I always stress is the, the way that you start the conversation dictates the flow. Not only of that conversation, but in reality, the relationship itself, the, the, the entire relationship. The staple question though is what comes after that? Once you're a little, once you've had the pleasantries, the truss zone windows pass, and you're, it's time to focus and get down to business, as they say, uh, that's where the staple question comes in, which is what Michael said. And that is, Hey, what, what brings you here today? What prompted this? What's on your mind? What are the things that you wanna make sure that we accomplish? Hey, what at the end of today, what would make it feel like it was a productive meeting?

They're all variations of the same question, but I call it the staple question because it should be asked at the beginning of every single meeting because it does two things. One, it in instantly signals to the person that this meeting's about them and not you. And you want them to feel heard and understood. And then number two, it lets them get out anything that's stuck in their mind. It lets the, if if you go, if somebody comes in, they've got this burning, pressing issue or question, and you're sitting there trying to tell 'em about how great your service and your process, or, I know I keep using that, but I, I mean, I've done it forever. I know people do it. If you're trying to impress 'em with how great you are and they've got this burning question, they're not even hearing anything that you say. So you give 'em the chance to release that out of their mind by asking the staple question while at the same time letting 'em know, Hey, we're here for you. We're not here for me. Tell me what you wanna do, what you want to talk about. And that basically opens up the door for the rest of the, for the rest of the meeting.

Brendan, you shared a lot of good tips with us about building trust and connection. Well, now's our chance to build trust and connection with you through asking you a series of questions that we call the lightning Round. It's one of the favorite things that we do on the podcast. And what we're looking for are your top of mind responses to questions that Julie and I are gonna fire at you. Sound good? Let's go. How about your favorite holiday

Christmas? No. Yeah, no doubt about it. Now you can't start cel, you can't start decorating and celebrating until after Thanksgiving. You can't celebrate past New Year's. Like we're, we're doing this in February. I saw Christmas tree up just the other day, right? And so I was kinda like, what are we doing here? But, but I'm off on a tangent now. Definitely Christmas.

I'll agree with you on the back end, not on the front end, but we can talk about that offline. I know Brendan Frazier (22:55):

October is the prime month in my household for that to come out. But anyway, uh, do you prefer to shop online or in stores?

Uh, so my gut reaction would be online, but not for everything. I only online for convenience, but in stores for things like there's, I I think the, the experience of going to the store to get things is like losing Some of its what it was. Maybe it's because I used to do that, right? Growing up, you go to the store, you couldn't order anything online. So maybe it's still nostalgic in a way, but I'm not talking about the grocery store. I'm thinking about like, I was tempted to buy, um, a tennis racket for my son the other day. He's getting into tennis lessons. And I was like, no, it's kind of fun to go to the store and look at 'em and mess around with them. And so I didn't do it online, but if we're talking like, Hey, I need some shampoo, like I have no desire to go to sh go to the store if I can just show up to my house two days later.

How about a paper to-do list or digital Brendan Frazier (23:50):

Paper? Yep. I just still have to print out everything I read too. If I need to like really read and get into it. I'm focus on it. And I, and it's so funny, like I feel like I, like one day I'm gonna be law. I'm not gonna know how to comprehend anymore cuz we're not gonna be able to print things out. I'm worried about what that's gonna do for me, like mentally comprehending things. But I'm glad I know I'm not alone.

No, not alone at all.

Would you rather read a book or listen to an audible? Brendan Frazier (24:13):

All right. This is another nuanced answer. You guys are probably like, Hey Brendan, these are just supposed to be simple questions, but it's nuance. So I would rather read a book than listen to Audible. But I would, I read books, but I would rather listen to a podcast than read a book. So, but I have to have a book because you can't see. But I have a bookshelf behind me. I wanna have a library one day with all the books that I've read. I like to highlight and take notes. And so if I, I'm listening to a book on Audible right now, long story. And the biggest frustration is like, I don't know what to do with my notes. As I'm, as

I'm taking, as I'm listening, I don't, I need to highlight to be a, to be able to really absorb it. And so books I need to read, but I, I would probably rather listen to a podcast than, than read a book.

So last question, are you an introvert or an extrovert and a slight spin on this, because you mentioned you were married. How would you characterize your spouse? The same or different? Yeah. From you Brendan Frazier (25:05):

Wife? Uh, very extroverted. Like, we have to, we sit there and, and she says like, she's, maybe she's feeling down not having a great day. It's like, have you, have you been with your friends lately? Have you been out and interacted with other human beings? And she's like, no. And then she goes and doesn't, she comes back and like, th she's instantly better. Another thing that we talk about a lot though my wife and I talk about a lot is I don't believe in either or on this. Like, I think it's a spectrum mm-hmm.

where you don't have to g I don't like being pinpointed one way or the other. So, um, I get most of my energy by being by myself, which I think people would classify that as more leaning, more towards introvert. But I love mm-hmm. being around and engaging and interacting with other people. I get a lot of, I get energy from that too. Uh, but I think if I ha ultimately I probably skew a little bit more towards introvert because I feel like I have to turn on more to be with people and when I'm by myself, it's where I'd probably restore a little bit more.

Brendan. That's great. I think, you know, I've always said that oftentimes for financial professionals, it's minor adjustments around the margin to a process that can really take it to the next level and make it just that much more impacful. So I think you've given so many great ideas and just small adjustments that our listeners can consider when thinking about and reflecting upon their discovery process. So thank you so much for your time today and for those listening. Yeah. If you are interested in more that Brendan, uh, has to say, check out his podcast, which is the human side of money, as well as his website@wiredplanning.com. He has many in-depth learning and resources and, uh, offers classes, as he mentioned at the beginning, eight week intensive programs and other great resources. So again, Brennan, thanks for being here with us on the Human-Centric Investing podcast today.

Yeah. Once again, thanks so much for having me. The human side of money, the Human-Centric Investing podcast. It feels like a natural, a natural partnership. So it was great. Thanks for having me.

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