In this raw, layered episode of Forever Wild, Meagan and Nora take us back to 1986—peak Valley Girl era—where their family finds a brief glimpse of stability in the San Fernando Valley… before it all unravels again. From a rundown house near the Sherman Oaks Galleria to a sudden move to Connecticut just days before Christmas, the sisters recount a whirlwind time marked by missed opportunities, unexpected generosity, and unsettling encounters.

We hear about the “extra” kids who lived with them, how their mother became the subject of a Ben Stein newspaper profile—and what happened when he took a disturbing interest in one of the sisters. It’s a story of instability and survival, told with humor, honesty, and a fierce sense of reflection.

Trigger warning: This episode contains discussions of child exploitation and inappropriate behavior by an adult.

⏱️ Timestamps (Approximate)

• 00:01 – Intro and stabby moods
• 04:30 – Life in the San Fernando Valley
• 12:00 – The college dream that slipped away
• 20:45 – “Throwaway children” and Ben Stein’s glowing article
• 29:10 – The poolside photo shoot
• 36:00 – Connecticut and the Christmas from hell
• 47:00 – College envy and the reality check
• 55:00 – Ben Stein calls again—with a disturbing request
• 01:04:00 – The Spy Magazine mention and the truth behind the creep
• 01:08:00 – Wrapping up: privilege, predators, and the path ahead

📎 Mentioned in this Episode:

• [Ben Stein's 1986 article “The Valley’s Keeper of Disposable Children”]

If you’re loving the show, please leave us a review wherever you listen. It helps us more than you know.

Hi.

2

Welcome to Forever Wild, a podcast

about family memory and the

3

stories that shape who we become.

4

I'm Megan McGovern, the

oldest of Four Sisters.

5

Nora Gibbs: And I'm Nora Gibbs,

the most annoying of four sisters.

6

Today we're sharing our journey,

growing up with an actor father, a

7

mother who didn't think the rules

applied to her, at least financially

8

and a childhood full of chaos,

adventure, and unforgettable moments.

9

Meagan McGovern: Every episode we tell

stories about our childhood and we talk

10

about how siblings who come from the

same families can see their past in

11

very different ways, and how we carry

that forward into our lives today.

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Nora Gibbs: Thank you for joining us.

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This is Forever Wild.

14

Meagan McGovern: Alright, Norris,

what are we gonna talk about today?

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Nora Gibbs: Well, I said I'm annoying,

but I'm actually annoyed with everything.

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You actually just say, I'm the

most annoyed of the McGovern girls.

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Um, everything's annoying right now.

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Oh my gosh.

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I just, you know.

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My friends make fun of

me when I say I'm stabby.

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And that just means I like,

I just wanna stab someone.

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And I know that's probably not the nice

kind way that you live your life, but

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Meagan McGovern: No.

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Well, the other thing is you

can't say them on Facebook or they

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Nora Gibbs: block you.

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You can't, oh my gosh.

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You know how many times I've gotten

kicked off Facebook for saying I wanna

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stab someone or I wanna strangle someone?

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You know, I think it's funny we're

talking about this 'cause today we'll

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go into mom and why she did things and

the way herself learn about things.

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Maybe this is why we do these things.

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Okay, well that's

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Meagan McGovern: the first

time I've ever thought of that.

34

Mom used to say stuff

like that all the time.

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Nora Gibbs: Oh, all the time.

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But

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Meagan McGovern: she

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Nora Gibbs: used to,

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Meagan McGovern: so yeah, she used

to be really violent in her language,

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but she didn't hit us, so who knows.

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Nora Gibbs: No, she never did.

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She never did.

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Yeah.

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Again, so, alright, so we

ended last week's episode and

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I know we went over last week.

46

So if you listened to the very

end, um, I will Venmo you $5 just,

47

and we'll go from there.

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But we ended.

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As we moved into a house in the

San Fernando Valley, right next to

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the Sherman Oaks Galleria, which

is the Galleria from Valley Girl,

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Meagan McGovern: as if

anybody knows what that is

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Nora Gibbs: anymore.

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Okay, well, back in the

eighties, you know, everyone

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knows what a valley girl is.

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We were the heart of the valley.

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We were, we were valley girls.

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We were, you know, mid eighties.

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I was, it was what, 19 85, 86.

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At this point it was 85.

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85.

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I was 10 years old.

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Oh, no, Megan was 30.

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It was the spring.

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It

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Meagan McGovern: was the spring of 86.

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So I was a senior in high school for,

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Nora Gibbs: oh, it was spring

of 86 because yeah, the

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Challenger blew up in January.

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So spring of 86, this whole thing.

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So I was

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Meagan McGovern: 1986,

which is like peak eighties.

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I was 11.

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Yes, we were in all the cool

music and you know, yes.

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My whole, you know.

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High school experience was shaped

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and all the music of that era.

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So

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Nora Gibbs: you were still

going, were you still in the

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Meagan McGovern: magnet

program at the school?

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I was still in the magnet program

81

And then in the fall, or in

June actually, we graduated.

82

'cause Susie and I still went together.

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Susie was still living with us.

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She had lived with us in Oregon

and she came back and lived with

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us in this house because her

parents wouldn't take her back.

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And when she didn't wanna go back.

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And we graduated on her 17th birthday.

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And, um, we both mom had, there's a lot.

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Okay, so from here on in is where I

feel like I get screwed over a bit.

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And obviously you get

screwed over a lot in this.

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It's not a trauma Olympics, but.

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I was smart.

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I wanted to go to college.

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I was really into going to college.

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I wanted to be an underwater archeologist.

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I was very into going to college.

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But because we had lived in

Oregon, I never took the SAT and

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I didn't understand how, oh, and

I had never applied to colleges.

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Um, I didn't know how and the month

that, so remember that Christmas

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we were talking about in Oregon

where everything was so chaotic?

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Yes.

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That was the deadline for college

applications was that week.

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That was that?

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Correct.

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So did

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Nora Gibbs: mom at any point ever talk

to you about college applications?

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Did she ever say, Hey?

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Yeah, she,

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Meagan McGovern: she said, I'm

gonna be very disappointed in

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you if you don't go to Harvard.

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I'm gonna be very disappointed

in you, and I'm very disappointed

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that you don't have straight A's

and you're not going to Harvard.

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Nora Gibbs: I'm also disappointed

in you that you didn't go to Harvard

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Meagan McGovern: and why?

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Why didn't you go to a good college and

what was wrong with you that you didn't

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figure this out and go to a good college?

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And I didn't know that all

college applications were

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due January 1st of that year.

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Nora Gibbs: Well, so here's the thing.

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Mom went to college in San

Francisco from New York City.

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How did she make that happen?

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Meagan McGovern: She went

to Hunter College first and

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she went to Wagner College.

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And she failed outta both of those.

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And this is a long story 'cause I think

other things happened while she was there.

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Um, I think she had a baby

while she was in college.

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Is May, maybe that was later.

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She had two babies in her twenties and

I'm not sure when, um, but I'm just

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Nora Gibbs: curious, how did she,

like, who helped her apply for that?

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How did she know that was an option?

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Because like her parents, like, I loved

grandpa and grandma obviously, but

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grandma was like, Polish didn't really

speak a lot, I don't think she was.

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Meagan McGovern: Her senior year of high

school, she, maybe she was a junior in

134

high school and Aunt Maggie knows all the

details 'cause she's still mad about it.

135

But either her junior or senior year

of high school, mom had a baby and

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she had it at a home for nuns and

she had to go away for six months.

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Right.

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And so that really screwed up

her whole high school curriculum

139

and education as you would think.

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But she did go to an all girls

Catholic high school with nuns and.

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She got a great education and

she had decent grades and I think

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they helped her go to a college,

but she wasn't in any shape

143

psychologically to do well in college.

144

And I know she, I can't remember

whether she went to Hunter or Wagner.

145

They're both in New York City and

she said she would take the ferry

146

in and go to school, but I think

she found, you know, alcohol and

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men and life and didn't do well.

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And I don't know how long

she lasted, either one.

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And then she did go to college in

San Francisco, but my guess is that

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it was first semester for a year.

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It was not for very long, and she

never graduated from anywhere.

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And I.

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She just gave up and

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Nora Gibbs: obviously, I mean the

college application, you know,

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process had changed dramatically

from the mid fifties to the mid 80.

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Right, right.

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I was just curious as to how

she was able to get it together.

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I think

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Meagan McGovern: that the nuns, just

your senior year, they sat you down and

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said this, where, what do you wanna go?

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And they helped you fill

out the application.

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Was it?

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Gotcha.

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And so for me, I just didn't

even understand that that was

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something I was supposed to do.

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Right.

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And by the time I got back to LA and

got settled back into school, it was

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too late to apply anywhere except

our local community college And.

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To be fair, the two guys that Susie

and I were dating and who were

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our best friends, we were kind

of a foursome from that point on.

171

They also went to the community college

and I don't know why they didn't

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end up going somewhere different.

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They were both, I mean, we were at

a magnet school for highly gifted,

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motivated kids with parents who

were involved, and I don't know why

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they didn't end up going to better.

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Josh's

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Nora Gibbs: family had money.

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I remember Josh having, yeah, I

don't know about Chris's family.

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Josh's family was wealthy, I

don't remember, and his and

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Meagan McGovern: his father was a

lawyer, and so I don't know why.

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He ended up at the community college

to start with, but I ended up at a

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community college where if you went

there for two years and got a decent

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GPA, you could transfer to UCLA.

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Gotcha.

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And so I was very excited about

that and, um, I believed that

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that was what I was going to do.

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And I was gonna go to UCLA

and go for archeology.

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Nora Gibbs: Okay.

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Sorry.

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It's just been on my mind.

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I was wondering like, how did mom end

up going to the college and get into all

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of these colleges and she never had the

wherewithal to help you apply for them?

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Meagan McGovern: Well, I don't, I

think she, for all of her issues, I

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don't know whether she had a DHD or

learning disabilities or anything else,

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or whether she's just mentally ill.

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I can't see mom sitting down

and going through and writing

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a paper and doing the work.

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Yeah, I, I mean, I didn't either.

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I went to, it took me years to go

through college and I didn't know why

200

I couldn't sit down and do the work.

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I was interested, I loved to talk to

the teachers, I loved the topics and

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I loved the projects, but when it came

to sitting down and writing a paper,

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I couldn't get my ass in a chair.

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Nora Gibbs: Gotcha.

205

Alright.

206

So you were in high school still

and then moving into college

207

and graduated from this house.

208

And this is the house we

were living in when mom had.

209

Of a couple of our friends living with us.

210

Katie's friends and your friends.

211

So at this point it was Katie and

Tyra, and Tyra was Katie's best friend

212

and we talked about her a little

bit in the last couple episodes.

213

Tyra had a big impact in our

life in that, or in my life.

214

Anyway, that Tyra's mom, and I'm probably

gonna get some of the details right,

215

but I'm just gonna throw it out there.

216

Tyra's mother started having an

affair with Tyra's sister's boyfriend.

217

And Tyra's sister was just

two years older than Tyra.

218

So Tyra's mom was, let's

say 35, 40 years old.

219

She started having an affair

with like a 17-year-old kid,

220

and this boy was very abusive to

Tyra and like physically abusive.

221

Kind of took a role as the man of the

house and like started bossing around

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his ex-girlfriend who was Tyra's sister.

223

She ended up moving out, Tyra

ended up moving in with us and,

224

and Susie already lived with us.

225

Susie already lived with us, and there

was an article that a man named Ben Stein

226

wrote for the Harold Tribune and Ben

227

Meagan McGovern: Stein.

228

There was no Harold Tribune.

229

That's New York City.

230

It was the la I don't

know it have the article.

231

It was the LA Her Have

232

Nora Gibbs: article or

the, sorry, I think it was

233

Meagan McGovern: the

La Herald or something.

234

The Herald Examiner.

235

The Herald Examiner.

236

Herald Examiner.

237

Okay,

238

Nora Gibbs: so Ben Stein was writer for

the Harald Examiner and Ben Stein will

239

be most famously known to most of you

listening to this as the man in Ferris

240

Bueller's Day Off who said Bueller?

241

Bueller.

242

Bueller and Ferris Bueller and, and

243

Meagan McGovern: he went famous

later for other stuff he did.

244

He was a political advisor.

245

He did a, he did a stupid

show called Ben Stein's Money

246

Nora Gibbs: when Ben Stein's Money.

247

And the host of that show, or his

co-host on that show, or the host

248

of that show was Jimmy Kimmel.

249

And that's how Jimmy Kimmel

ended up becoming a late

250

night talk show host, right?

251

Since he got famous through Ben Stein.

252

So Ben Stein wrote an article

about the throwaway children

253

of the San Fernando Valley.

254

Right.

255

And it was basically about kids

who were homeless or kids who were

256

living with other people, or kids who

have just been kind of thrown away.

257

But they all still had dreams.

258

They had big dreams and they

wanted to do this and that.

259

So Mom read that article and she

wrote Ben Stein a letter and said, I

260

actually, these kids, I have a house

full of kids who've been abused,

261

who've been hurt, who've been whatever.

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And that led to a phone

call with her and Ben Stein.

263

And Ben Stein wrote an article

about our family, and Megan's gonna

264

post this article on her socials

for everyone to look at and on

265

the Forever Wild Podcast page.

266

But so Ben Stein wrote an article

about The Valley's Keeper.

267

The title of it is The Valley's

Keeper of Disposable Children,

268

and it was written in 1986.

269

And it was a big article and

we started getting letters in

270

the mail through the newspaper.

271

I guess they went to Ben Stein

and they were redirected to us.

272

There were checks in the mail.

273

Do you remember that?

274

People would send us money.

275

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

276

Okay.

277

So, and well, here's the things he like.

278

What he says in here is,

um, Maureen McGovern is a

279

divorced woman in middle age.

280

She lives in a ramshackle house bursting

with love and caring and children.

281

Some of the children are

hers and some are children.

282

She took in.

283

And he actually calls her a

genuine hero of modern life.

284

Nora Gibbs: Oh, that's so kind.

285

Meagan McGovern: And then he says,

um, my smart friend once told me that

286

he could tell in one instant whether

someone was for life or for death.

287

Maureen McGovern is for life since

she is also something of a poet.

288

You might wanna hear her own words

about the way she lives and why.

289

And she goes on and talks about

how, you know, she's helping

290

these kids and I anyway, about

basically how she's the savior.

291

Of all of these children and

about what wonderful things she's

292

doing for these kids and, and

how she's saving all of them.

293

Nora Gibbs: And to some

degree, she was right.

294

She gave them a safe place to live.

295

She gave them food, she gave them hugs.

296

She was good to them.

297

They had a safe place to

lay their head at night.

298

And I think for a lot of teenagers

in peril, that's what they need.

299

Right.

300

Meagan McGovern: Well, and I think

this is an interesting key is 'cause

301

my mother, we haven't gotten into men.

302

Sex, my mother, all of that yet.

303

, but one of the things she says

here is it's very typical of her.

304

The problem starts with

the father leaving.

305

The mother panics and thinks she

can't live without a new man.

306

She starts running to health clubs.

307

And beauty safaris and single

bars, beauty salons, not safaris.

308

I don't even know what, it's

a good, some beauty safari.

309

I, I wanna go into bar's, not clear

beauty salon and singles bars and

310

single clubs and group therapy and

the children are just left behind.

311

And you know something, those

people are making big mistakes.

312

The children I take in are

wonderful, beautiful kids.

313

And what I get out of them in the way

of love and affection is something

314

you can't buy at a health club.

315

You can't buy that anywhere.

316

I'm the lucky one.

317

And I mean, come on.

318

Okay.

319

First she's blaming you.

320

Okay.

321

And women for wanting

to, I don't even know.

322

Nora Gibbs: Well, we know she's

dramatic and we know she's a writer,

323

so that's kind of where that came from.

324

I think.

325

So the reason that I wanted to talk

about this in this episode today is

326

'cause I think it's really interesting,

and you and I have talked about this

327

before a little bit, that you know.

328

Did, why did Mom take in kids?

329

Did mom do it to make herself

feel better as a mother?

330

Like, Hey, at least I'm not as bad as

Tyra's mom who started sleeping with

331

her boyfriend, her sister's boyfriend,

or, Hey, at least I'm not as bad

332

as Susie's mom who, X, Y, Z, right?

333

I think it's, I think it was

334

Meagan McGovern: a combination of

she had no boundaries, and if we

335

brought home a sick, sad kid or

whatever, she would say, sure, why not?

336

She wanted us to love her more, and

she loved having other kids love

337

her because it made her feel good.

338

It made her feel good about herself

and a bad part of me wants to believe

339

that it made it easier to scam people.

340

Nora Gibbs: Yeah, for sure.

341

I mean, if you pride yourself on being

a saint and ticking all these kids,

342

it's hard for people to see you coming.

343

Yeah.

344

When they steal their wall at other house.

345

Meagan McGovern: Well, and some of these

kids, I mean, to be fair, there were some

346

cdy fights that I don't like to think

about, about who was getting the social

347

security checks for some of these kids.

348

Nora Gibbs: I rem, you know, I mean, and

I know, and I know Tyra's father passed

349

away when she was younger, and Tyra got

$500 a month in her social security.

350

Right.

351

And I know for a fact

that mom got that check.

352

Meagan McGovern: Right.

353

And was that a factor?

354

I mean, I don't think that's

the reason she took Tyra.

355

She never got money for Susie.

356

But I think it was also not, not a factor.

357

Like sure, an extra 500

bucks a month is gonna help.

358

Nora Gibbs: Can you imagine if she

had known that the government would

359

pay her to be a, like a foster mom?

360

Oh my God.

361

But she would've had to

have home inspection.

362

Oh, she would've passed.

363

We would've passed.

364

Yeah.

365

Passed.

366

We would've been like all screaming

at the bottom and she would've hired

367

a housekeeper to come clean it up.

368

Yeah.

369

Meagan McGovern: Okay, so let's get to

the other part of the Ben Stein story.

370

Nora Gibbs: Okay, so this is the part

that's frustrating for me to talk about

371

because again, me being savvy, so.

372

Ben Stein met our family.

373

He came to visit our family and

immediately had a very strong

374

reaction to, for lack of a better

phrase to our sister Morgan.

375

Morgan was a beautiful girl.

376

She was 13 at this point.

377

Um, and Ben decided that he

wanted to take pictures of Morgan.

378

He said that he wanted to show

his nephew what California girls

379

looked like, and I remember this.

380

This is hand on a Bible.

381

This all happened.

382

He and Morgan, Morgan and I and

my mother went to his house and it

383

was like in the Hollywood Hills.

384

It was up on a hill somewhere.

385

It was a beautiful house out by the pool.

386

And Morgan put on a blue bikini

and went out and po by the pool.

387

And Ben Stein personally took

pictures of her by the pool.

388

Posing in a bikini 13 years old.

389

Meagan McGovern: And to be fair,

she was pretty enough at that time.

390

And we were poor enough at the time

and we'd lived in LA that everybody

391

talked about Morgan being a model

or an actress, and that this was

392

going to maybe be some pictures

for modeling or for whatever else.

393

It wasn't that skeevy.

394

I mean, it was, but it wasn't, it wa

and mom was there to make sure that, you

395

know, I don't know if mom was there in the

396

Nora Gibbs: moment.

397

It wasn't creepy.

398

Me being there looking back now on

it, it, it was super fucking creepy.

399

Right.

400

But in the moment, no, it wasn't

in the moment I was 11 years old, I

401

was really mad that he didn't want

pictures of me being in my bikini.

402

Like I wasn't cute enough.

403

Right?

404

Like, what are you talking about?

405

She's prettier than I am.

406

And that's just a sister

rivalry thing, right?

407

But looking back on it now,

it was super inappropriate.

408

So he took these pictures of her,

I think his wife was even there.

409

She was in the house somewhere.

410

Yeah.

411

So there was

412

Meagan McGovern: nothing gross.

413

Nothing terrible about it.

414

Right.

415

Nora Gibbs: Right.

416

Um, but again, looking back on

it now, super inappropriate.

417

I mean,

418

Meagan McGovern: yes, gross,

but not criminal, right?

419

Nora Gibbs: Not, you know.

420

Right.

421

Um, he didn't touch her.

422

He never made a pass at her.

423

He never did anything like that.

424

He took some pictures

of her out by the pool.

425

We left.

426

Everything was copacetic,

everything's great.

427

Right.

428

Um, as far as I know at, in Los Angeles

at that point, that was the last

429

interaction we had with Ben Stein.

430

So.

431

Shortly after this.

432

Okay.

433

Right before

434

Meagan McGovern: we end

up moving in December.

435

And so in the fall, Susie and I

started at the community college.

436

And like I said, I, I really wanted to

transfer to UCLA in two years and I was

437

happy for the first time in a long time.

438

We felt stable, sort of,

and I was really happy.

439

I mean, mom had gotten arrested at

some point for bad checks, I think.

440

And it was bad 'cause

like my father showed up.

441

And had to help bail her out.

442

But for whatever reason or however it

worked, there was enough money coming in

443

that we felt sort of stable and I really

liked going to the community college.

444

But at some point, about 10 days

before Christmas, mom came in and

445

said, we're moving to New York.

446

Pack her shit, and we're

moving to New York in two days.

447

We're moving to Connecticut in two days.

448

Nora Gibbs: Well, I will say right before

this happened, I do remember there was

449

a lot of car shuffling in the driveway.

450

Because we had a couple of cars at

this point, and she was afraid that

451

somebody was gonna repossess her car.

452

So like she would park her car as

close to her car as she could and

453

then have other people park her

car, their cars behind hers so that

454

they couldn't get in to tow her car.

455

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

456

I mean, and so the money wasn't there and,

but I, and, and once dad gets involved,

457

you know, it's kind of a, a mess if Dad's

getting involved and I don't know what

458

she thought was going to be in New York.

459

We'd already moved to New York once we

had already moved to the Adirondack.

460

In 1980, we had already done that

where she burned down the house.

461

So why were we going back to New York?

462

I don't know.

463

I don't remember why we ended up

there, but California wasn't working,

464

so we were going back to, to New York

and I, for the first time, kind of

465

threw a fit and I said, I'm not going.

466

I, one of the other things was, is that

in, at this particular community college,

467

final exams were in January and I had five

classes that I was enrolled in and I was

468

doing well in them, and she said, too bad.

469

I don't care.

470

You have to come.

471

And I said, no, I'm not going.

472

And she said, you're, you just turned 17.

473

What are you gonna do?

474

Stay here by yourself.

475

And maybe if I had been a different

person or you know, I might have said,

476

sure, yes I am, but I could never

have left you guys behind or Right.

477

And I would never thought

I could survive on my own.

478

And I felt like I was

still your big sister.

479

I couldn't do that to you.

480

You

481

Nora Gibbs: were

482

Meagan McGovern: still

483

Nora Gibbs: our big sister.

484

Meagan McGovern: Well, yeah.

485

And I mean, we, I don't

remember how we got there.

486

Don't remember moving there.

487

Don't remember the trip

Cross country, but.

488

Nora Gibbs: I remember

bits and pieces of it.

489

Did we go in a moving van?

490

Meagan McGovern: I don't know.

491

I, I remember

492

Nora Gibbs: we had Toby with us, our dog.

493

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

494

And I mean, Susie went with us.

495

I know we didn't fly, don't remember

the trip, but we ended up in Connecticut

496

two days before Christmas, and we went

to stay with my aunt and uncle, and I

497

had to give up that entire semester and

take withdrawals in every single class.

498

Nora Gibbs: We didn't just end

up in Connecticut, we ended up in

499

Darien, Connecticut, which is one

of the richest parts of Connecticut.

500

Meagan McGovern: It's one of the

richest parts of the entire country.

501

I mean, you're talking Beverly Hills,

Darien, Connecticut, and whatever,

502

el whatever part of San Francisco,

um, and Silicon Valley type of thing.

503

And it's just, it was a disaster.

504

All four of us and our dog, again, this

is the second time that all four and Katie

505

Nora Gibbs: has sugar, also two dogs.

506

Meagan McGovern: Yeah, actually,

and it wasn't four of us.

507

It was five of us.

508

'cause Suzy came with us.

509

So five children, plus my mom,

plus our dog for the second time.

510

Show up on my aunt and uncle's doorstep

in Connecticut, where they did Tyra

511

Nora Gibbs: watch

512

Meagan McGovern: this?

513

Not she came later.

514

She flew out later.

515

Okay.

516

Okay.

517

Um, but we showed up two days

before Christmas at my aunt and

518

uncle's house in Connecticut.

519

And my aunt and uncle are good

people and they are decent

520

human beings, but nobody wants.

521

Six homeless people showing

up on their doorstep.

522

Or five Yes.

523

Fi six homeless people showing

up on their doorstep two days

524

before Christmas with their dog.

525

Plus two dogs.

526

Yeah, two dogs.

527

Yeah.

528

And it was just, it was just a disaster.

529

And, uh, I mean, so here we

are again, six years later.

530

Only this time we're smarter,

wiser, and we understand that our

531

aunt and uncle don't want us there,

or you know, they don't want us

532

to be in this circumstance there.

533

And it was just awful.

534

Um.

535

And I mean, you tell us about Christmas.

536

Christmas sucked.

537

Nora Gibbs: Well, this was a big

Christmas because on Christmas Eve,

538

I remember this, um, we were staying

with my cousin Bernie was there

539

and Bernie's like a couple years.

540

He was like a year older than Morgan.

541

So a couple years older than

I is he, everybody went out to

542

midnight mass on Christmas Eve,

like all the adults and big kids.

543

And Morgan and I and Bernie

and his friend tof, Christopher

544

tof, we all stayed behind.

545

And they got drunk on Molson Golden.

546

Wow.

547

Because they were like 15 or 16

and TOF threw up everywhere and

548

it was like horrific vomiting.

549

Right.

550

And right as soon as he was done

throwing up, uncle Bernie walks in

551

and he was, and it's like Christmas

Eve vomit all over the playroom.

552

And he is like, what is happening?

553

And I think for a minute there, he thought

it was like me and Morgan, I'm like.

554

Dude, I'm like 11 years old.

555

This has nothing to do with me.

556

You know?

557

And so it was, it was burning

in tof, but it was, it was

558

kind of a interesting thing.

559

But I remember, I remember a lot of

presents for some reason, which is so

560

bizarre to me, that we had all these gifts

and like an embarrassing amount of gifts.

561

One mom didn't have any money,

562

Meagan McGovern: right?

563

And either she borrowed the money from

them and then bought the PS, or she

564

stole the money and they knew that.

565

And we didn't know that.

566

I mean, not really.

567

We didn't understand how it all worked.

568

But we do know there

was like resentment and.

569

My big thing with this was,

um, hold on one second.

570

My big thing with this was, remember

how I just said that, you know,

571

the year before I'd had to apply

to all these colleges, right?

572

My cousin is three months younger than

I am, and she was a year behind me in

573

school, and she was applying to colleges

and all of her college applications

574

would do the first week in January.

575

So on her desk in her beautiful

organized bedroom where she had

576

always lived and always had beautiful

furniture and beautiful things, were

577

12 different college applications lined

up with letters of recommendation for

578

professors and copies of her grades.

579

And she was writing in her own

handwriting or maybe even on a typewriter.

580

I don't remember what

you used in those days.

581

Nora Gibbs: I feel like

it was a typewriter.

582

I remember her typing, yeah.

583

Meagan McGovern: In her college essays

and filling out the applications,

584

essays and why she wanted that.

585

And I was.

586

Almost knocked over by jealousy and envy

and anger and resentment at my mother.

587

And they were already talking about

how they were gonna move her into the

588

dorms and where they were going to go

and which college she wanted to go to.

589

And I was so furious and I, I

mean, I can still feel that.

590

Viscerally.

591

And I know it wasn't her fault.

592

She's going to college, she's

doing what she's supposed to do.

593

I remember

594

Nora Gibbs: she had a little,

I remember she had Aunt

595

Sonia's checkbook next to her.

596

Meagan McGovern: Yes.

597

'cause she had to write

a check and she had a

598

Nora Gibbs: checkbook because

she was just writing a check

599

for the college applications.

600

And I can just remember thinking like, I

can't imagine having my own, like having

601

access to a checkbook that there was money

in the account and you can just write

602

a check for something that you needed.

603

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

604

I mean it was, and this

was just an exposure to.

605

I mean, its more a normal life.

606

It's a pretty privileged life, and

607

everybody got to go to college and

fill out college applications, but

608

in our family, a lot of people did.

609

And the people that I

went to school with did.

610

And yet here I was and I was very upset

by the expectation that I was supposed

611

to do something with my life and the

reality that I didn't have the support.

612

And the skills needed to do it.

613

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

614

Well, and it's frustrating when you,

it's kind of that what my life could be.

615

Yes.

616

Like if, okay, and I always used to think

this, if Uncle Bernie had been my dad,

617

what would my life have looked like?

618

I.

619

So much different than it is now.

620

Right, right.

621

Um, which is funny because his son and

I actually do the same thing, so it's

622

kind of all worked out like Right.

623

You know, I mean, we have the

same, we have the same career path.

624

Well, I mean,

625

Meagan McGovern: and, and my

cousin ended up, she became, um,

626

she grad, she majored in history,

which I would've loved to major in.

627

She went to a decent

college and she liked it.

628

And then, okay.

629

And she also started

630

Nora Gibbs: rowing her

631

Meagan McGovern: first year of college.

632

I think she started rowing

her first year in college.

633

And she, but the, the whole

family did all of the Connecticut

634

things that we never did.

635

Like they played things like

lacrosse and they played badminton

636

on their front lawn and they

chased fireflies in the afternoon.

637

And all the things that I.

638

And they played tennis for fun

and they took piano lessons.

639

And um,

640

Nora Gibbs: I played tennis for

fun and Charlotte plays lacrosse,

641

so, okay, well there you go.

642

But, but also I'll, I do have to

give a quick shout out to Christine.

643

Christina ended up, you know, she

started rowing when she was in

644

college and she ended up going

into the Olympics for the US team,

645

and she won a bronze silver medal.

646

Bronze, bronze, oh.

647

She won the bronze medal

for US and Australia

648

Meagan McGovern: in the 2000 Olympics.

649

And I was pregnant with

Sawyer, so I couldn't go.

650

Anyway, so

651

Nora Gibbs: sorry I digressed.

652

Yeah, she ended up, she

653

Meagan McGovern: ended up being

a fantastic human being who

654

was actually, she's wonderful.

655

Very sweet and good natured and she

gives back and, you know, does a

656

lot of of cool things and I didn't

know that Then all I knew was that

657

I just resented everything about her

life because I couldn't have that.

658

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

659

Yeah.

660

So, and I remember she was, um,

I don't know when it was, but she

661

was going shopping with her mother.

662

For clothes for college.

663

Yep.

664

And or for back to school or something.

665

And she had mentioned that

she gets a budget for that.

666

Yes.

667

And I remember thinking, what's a budget?

668

Meagan McGovern: I remember, I

remember a lot of the parenting things

669

that her parents did, and I just

thought it was like being angry if

670

they didn't make it home by curfew.

671

I was at a party with Christine one night

and it was seven minutes till midnight.

672

And of course, you know, Katie

and I are begging to stay

673

and we don't want to go home.

674

And Christine calls her house at seven

minutes to midnight and says, can I?

675

Extend the curfew and

her parents are furious.

676

They're like, we live 15 minutes away.

677

Yeah.

678

So if you called it 20 minutes till and

said, can you expend, expend the curfew?

679

Sure.

680

But we live 15 minutes away.

681

You're calling seven minutes

before to ask if you can extend.

682

And I'm thinking, boy, they're so mean.

683

And boy, they're so, they're so picky.

684

And how dare they?

685

And then yeah, they would say something

like, you have $200 to shop for school

686

clothes and, um, you need to take care

of all your own expenses with that money.

687

And you can figure out if you

wanna buy one nice jacket or.

688

10 smaller things and I'm

thinking, wow, that's, no, I can

689

never imagine anything like that.

690

Nora Gibbs: Well, and it's funny 'cause

I've actually done kind of the same

691

thing with my own kids, just because

of that one little thing that stuck

692

with me when I was a little girl.

693

Yeah.

694

So, um, okay, so where'd we go from here?

695

Christmas was miserable.

696

So now

697

Meagan McGovern: let's talk

about, we moved to a house

698

and we moved into a house.

699

Of course we went to, you

know, a nice quiet, you know,

700

suburb that we could afford.

701

Um,

702

all right, where'd we go?

703

Nora Gibbs: We moved to, but

I'm from Westport, Connecticut.

704

Yeah.

705

Which is two streets over from Martha.

706

Martha

707

Meagan McGovern: Spirit.

708

Martha, yes.

709

We lived a couple of blocks from Martha

710

Nora Gibbs: and from her church.

711

We lived on um, greens Farms Road

and it was an incredible lot.

712

Just down the street you could walk

down and you could see old Long Island

713

sound and, ugh, a beautiful home.

714

Lots of bedrooms, big, huge yard.

715

Meagan McGovern: We rented it.

716

I don't know why they have rentals there,

but I don't know how much the rental was.

717

I don't know where we got the money.

718

I don't know how we ended up doing it.

719

We didn't live there for very long,

but we moved in there and, um, we

720

Nora Gibbs: moved in there.

721

We were there long enough that we

went to, I went to school there.

722

I went to Westport, um,

middle school or whatever.

723

The middle school was there.

724

And you know, I had a

lot of friends there.

725

And this is where I kind of

started my sports career.

726

This is where I started playing soccer

and where I started playing softball.

727

Meagan McGovern: Um, I started, I got into

728

Nora Gibbs: sports.

729

Meagan McGovern: I started at a

college, um, sacred Heart University.

730

And remember it, it was just a commuter

college, but I was able to take classes

731

again and I was glad to be back in school.

732

'cause that was my thing, is that

I couldn't just not do anything.

733

I graduated from high school.

734

Now what?

735

I, and I started waiting tables, but, um.

736

I started having some great friends there

too, and we started having a life again.

737

But we also knew it wasn't gonna

last because it never lasted.

738

Yeah.

739

And we didn't know what to do.

740

And we didn't know how far to dive in.

741

Alright.

742

And so this is where the second part

of the Ben Stein story comes in.

743

So one of the cool things about

living in Connecticut, which anybody

744

who lives on the East coast knows,

is that if you live in Connecticut.

745

Everybody you know will come visit you

because at some point, everybody, you

746

know, anywhere in the world will fly

through New York City and they will

747

say, Hey, I'm flying in through New

York and I need a place to stay and

748

the city's really expensive, and can

I be put up for a couple nights and

749

it's only an hour train to New York and

everybody comes in, which was, I hadn't

750

really understood how New York is the

hub of everywhere, but it really does.

751

Nora Gibbs: Yeah.

752

Meagan McGovern: And

753

Nora Gibbs: so we were

living in Connecticut.

754

Yeah.

755

And mom gets a phone call from Ben Stein.

756

And I don't know how he

got her phone number.

757

I don't know if she, how, why

she was so in contact with him.

758

Um, but Ben Stein called and

asked and said to my mom, Hey,

759

I'm in New York for the weekend

and I would love to see Morgan.

760

Is it possible that you

can bring Morgan to me?

761

And I would love to take her shopping

and she can maybe stay here with me

762

for the weekend and I'd love to just

kind of hang out with her and show

763

her the city, take her to her show,

and take her shopping for the weekend.

764

She's more than welcome to

stay with me in my hotel.

765

Meagan McGovern: And I don't know how

it was proposed, whether it was a,

766

Nora Gibbs: and this

is a story I heard from

767

Meagan McGovern: mom, right?

768

Well, whether it was a story of She's

such a cool girl and I'd like to help

769

her out and I know you guys don't have

any money, and I'd like to create scholar

770

scholarships or else I'd like to help

her with modeling, or I, I don't know in

771

any scene world where you could come up

with a cover story for that, that would.

772

Sound

773

Nora Gibbs: rational to mom's credit.

774

Mom said, absolutely not.

775

That is never gonna happen.

776

And hung up the phone.

777

Meagan McGovern: What was, but I mean,

how could anybody have a cover story

778

that sounds even remotely normal?

779

I mean, I don't know what I mean,

it was obviously what he, it was

780

obvious what he was proposing.

781

Nora Gibbs: For sure.

782

And I don't, and I don't know, did he

see a desperate woman thinking he was,

783

she was going to pimp her daughter out.

784

Did he see an opportunity to take

advantage of Morgan when Morgan was in

785

a role PO position, offer her things?

786

You know, I mean, at this point, she's 14.

787

It was after December, so

she's 14 at this point.

788

Yeah.

789

Doesn't make it any better.

790

She's a child.

791

Right, right.

792

No.

793

And disgust.

794

The whole thing is just, it's so

uncomfortable to talk about that.

795

I didn't honestly wrap my head around

the whole thing and think about the

796

whole thing until about a year ago when

I really started thinking about it.

797

When I had a teenage, a couple

of teenagers just thinking, what

798

the fuck is wrong with this guy?

799

Meagan McGovern: Well, I was, um, a

reporter for a while in different venues

800

and one of the things when I was at, um.

801

Years later, I was in Houston and

I was a reporter for the Republican

802

and I was covering the Republican

National Convention, um, whatever year

803

that was, 94, 96, whenever it was.

804

And one of the people there,

one of the reporters, there was

805

a reporter for Spy Magazine.

806

I don't know by magazine, doesn't

exist anymore, but it was a

807

really cool magazine that I loved.

808

And they had an article on Ben

Stein or Little, they had little.

809

Snarky snippets in some of their

places, and I think Ben Stein was

810

probably a Republican reporter or

Republican commentator or whatever.

811

Nora Gibbs: He was a political

advisor, if I remember correctly.

812

Meagan McGovern: Yeah, I think he

was like an analyst or something.

813

He was always involved in politics

and Spy magazine had a snarky thing

814

come out that said everybody knows

that Ben Stein likes him young.

815

Oof, something like that.

816

There was, and I can't find the

clip anywhere, in any newspaper

817

articles or anywhere else.

818

'cause Spy Magazine doesn't exist

anymore and the archives aren't online.

819

But I know that it said something

about, it's a well known fact.

820

Stein likes some young and

cute or something like that.

821

And so, wow.

822

Now every time the conspiracy theory

about pedophiles and Hollywood and

823

the coverup comes up, I'm like, well.

824

You know, maybe they were onto something.

825

I don't think they're drinking

children's blood, but I do think

826

they were onto something with hiding.

827

Yeah.

828

The bad guys in in,

829

Nora Gibbs: there's some creepy

people out there for sure.

830

Meagan McGovern: Yeah.

831

And you So is he gonna sue us?

832

I don't care.

833

He can sue me.

834

Nora Gibbs: But I mean, you can't sue

people for saying things that happened.

835

That's true.

836

What's he gonna say?

837

It didn't happen.

838

We have a proof and he's gonna come

out and say he is never met our family.

839

Here's an article you

wrote about my family.

840

You've met our family.

841

Right.

842

How can I describe his house in his

backyard if I've never been to his house?

843

He

844

Meagan McGovern: never, he

never made that phone call.

845

Invited Morgan.

846

Okay.

847

I'll say I'm okay.

848

You know, fine.

849

If he sues me for a million

dollars, I'll take it back.

850

Nora Gibbs: I'm so sorry.

851

My mother told me that my mother, who

whatever is also, we were also a liar, is

852

Meagan McGovern: also a liar and a creep.

853

Nora Gibbs: I'm so sorry.

854

She's been dead for six years.

855

I apologize.

856

So, um, anyway, I'm not worried about him.

857

He's a creep and if he or his people

listen to this, you're a creep.

858

Meagan McGovern: But I do think it shows.

859

How vulnerable we were seen or

vulnerable we appeared to be.

860

Yeah.

861

And I think it shows, you know, I

don't think anybody would've done this

862

if there were a father in the house,

863

Nora Gibbs: you know?

864

Well, it's just not scary that, I

mean, like what other people are

865

being picked apart or, you know,

preyed upon like that, you know?

866

Yeah.

867

It's a scary thing.

868

Well, I think we have talked

about Ben Stein as much as I

869

wanna talk about that piece of.

870

You know what, um, and I think our

time in Connecticut is coming to a

871

close, or the first part of our time

in Connecticut is coming to a close.

872

So we can stay on time and

not bore all of our listeners.

873

Um,

874

Meagan McGovern: well, because

guess what, guess where we go?

875

Next time we go back to the

Adirondacks, it's like back,

876

we go back to the Adirondacks.

877

Nora Gibbs: It's like

878

Meagan McGovern: we were in the

Adirondacks and my mom burned the house

879

down and then, you know, here we are six

years later with a whole crew of kids, and

880

although by this time it's 87, so Yeah.

881

You know, or 88.

882

SE seven, eight years later, we're back

to the Adirondacks with the same crew and

883

Nora Gibbs: well, there's one more

house in Connecticut after this,

884

and then we move to the Adirondacks.

885

But we'll talk about that next week.

886

Yeah,

887

Meagan McGovern: but I mean, it

doesn't, it just seems like it all

888

cycles back and forth and back and

forth and doesn't really, I don't

889

know if we learned much from it.

890

Nora Gibbs: Well.

891

I don't know.

892

And it's the one thing that's

always so funny to me is people

893

are like, where are you from?

894

I'm like, well, I'm from the East

coast, but I'm also from the West coast.

895

And they're like, what

are you talking about?

896

And I'm like, I'm also from Texas.

897

Like, they're like, how are

you from all these places?

898

I'm like, lemme just give

you the name of my podcast.

899

That's what I'm gonna say's, my podcast.

900

Would you listen to it

and leave us a review?

901

That's really funny.

902

Yeah.

903

Meagan McGovern: All right.

904

So I think that's it for today.

905

Um, as always, thank you for

listening to Forever Wild.

906

Nora Gibbs: And as always, if you've

enjoyed the episode, let us know.

907

Please leave us a review.

908

We have coming to understand

that the reviews really

909

matter, so we appreciate that.

910

Find Megan on Facebook and you can find

the Ben Stein article that he wrote

911

about our family or follow the Forever

Wilds, um, Facebook page and share it

912

with somebody who loves a good story.

913

Meagan McGovern: So we do love to

hear from you and we also would

914

like to know what resonates and you

know, what your favorite parts are,

915

what you wanna hear more about.

916

Nora Gibbs: Until next time, stay wild.

917

I.