Biohacking is SO many things! In this episode Angelica and Bey talk to two people on each end of the biohacking spectrum: biodesigner Ricky Solorzano and bodybuilder Scott Shunk. Later in the episode, our favorite chief bioscientist Dr. Jayatri Das is back!

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Hello and welcome to So Curious!, presented by the Franklin Institute.

In this season, Human 2.0, we will be talking to scientists and non-scientists

alike about technology, innovation, and the human experience.

We're your hosts.

I'm Angelica Pasquini.

And I'm the Bul Bey.

But you could just call me Bey.

On today's episode, we're going to be talking about biohacking with bioengineer

Ricky Solorzano and physique athlete Scott Shunk.

Hacking the human experience

is so funny to me, inherently, just the concept, it's comical.

I mean, I guess it's been happening forever.

People are like, "how do I..alright I've been doing this, this one

way..?" It's human nature to want to figure out a faster route from A to B.

That's what I always think about with hacking.

How can I more quickly get what I want?

Isn't that a classic question? Yeah.

I think we all want to try to get to our destinations.

And I think some of the people we'll be

talking to, and some people in the world, I think they revel in the process

and they are just trying to really make it as efficient...

I think they have a bit of a long-term perspective, a long game at play.

But yeah, we all want to cut those corners and be efficient.

So, Angelica, what do you think biohacking is?

It's a huge umbrella term. Yeah.

Let's just start with the most far out one that scares everyone for fun.

So it's that people turn themselves into

cyborgs by embedding magnets, chips, computers, under their skin.

So it's like people who want to put a little chip in their hand and then wave

their hand across something and then get accessibility into a door.

That's biohacking.

Now, that's a no for me, dog.

But I also think biohacking can be as

simple as making bread by using cells to do so.

I know that that's like a growing field in

biohacking and then obviously biohacking your body, biohacking your sleep.

In meditation, people are using these

devices now that can actually show you when your nervous system is the calmest.

And then that way you are in a sort of

like a Theta space so that you could have a deeper meditation.

Yes.

And I know we're going to be talking to people in the active athletic space.

I've been in gyms and I've seen people

sniff something right before they lift a piece of weight.

And I'm like, I don't know what that is.

Is that some kind of like chemical accelerant or something like that?

What is it?

If I saw somebody with a bunch of weight in front of them and they had to put

something up their nose in order to lift it up, I would assume...

This isn't something you need to do.

This isn't something that you need to do! Right.

Because if you have to sniff something up your nose, carry a bunch of weight around,

just go do something that your body wants to do instead.

Right. That's my opinion.

Try the treadmill, maybe.

Yeah. The elliptical...

We've got a great lineup for today's episode.

So let's kick off things with our first guest.

Our first guest is Scott Shunk.

Scott Schunk is a physique athlete and a model.

Scott has perfected his own body down to a science and helps others do the same as a

fitness and nutrition guru, and creator of Body Cult Fitness.

Before committing himself to his body full-time, Scott worked as a

consultant and was director of the Visualizing Cultures Project at MIT.

Hi, Scott, can you introduce yourself?

Hi, I'm Scott Shunk.

I'm sort of a fitness and wellness guy, a

bit of an Instagram and social media presence.

And what I do is help people stay youthful and invigorated in their lives.

So we want to ask you about your bodybuilding journey.

If you just want to give us like a synopsis of your story.

I've always been sort of fascinated by fitness and physique training, aesthetics

in terms of bodybuilding and modeling, and these types of things.

And I saw this series of photos called

"Fred With Tires" that Herb Ritts had done.

Simultaneously, that was when the Calvin

Klein first underwear ad came out, the classic 80s underwear ad.

What really was interesting in the 80s was gay men really sort of embraced the body

and the physique that I found to be most fascinating.

So growing up and seeing all these sort of these incredibly fit young men in

Greenwich Village, along with the photographic and artistic representations

that Herb Ritts had done, and then the modeling, what was

working in advertising, it really led me at age 13, 14 to know what I wanted to do.

And then I began my actual fitness journey at about 20.

And let me see, I would have been 20 in 1988.

And from there, it's been 34, 35 years of fitness: trying to understand

supplementation, different workout regimens and routines, really being open

and teachable to a lot of different things, doing a lot of research myself and

just enmeshing myself in the culture and embracing it fully.

Sort of what fitness is, and for me as a model (and an old dude model)...

I love that term, "old dude model."

Put it on LinkedIn!

Really looking, keeping my skin really well put together.

My skin is kind of one of my brands out in the modeling world because I have just a

very youthful-looking appearance and skin for a guy my age.

For sure! It's cool to hear.

So essentially, like when you were a young kid, you had this artistic vision.

And even I looked up "Fred With Tires."

It's a beautiful series, and the photography is incredible.

So it's like an artistic standpoint that you're coming from.

Absolutely. And that's why when people say

"bodybuilder," I embraced that term because I'm a bodybuilder.

But that also is really more associated

with these big giant guys that are running a lot of performance-enhancing drugs.

It's a different aesthetic.

I've always stayed completely natural.

I've never used performance-enhancing drugs, hormones, what have you.

I call what I do, I think I'm a "physique athlete" or an "aesthetic athlete."

Right.

And Scott, you used to be a research director at MIT, but now you're a physique

athlete, as you said, a fitness and nutrition coach and a model.

These seem like two different worlds.

What prompted you to make this change, and

do you find any connections between your previous career and what you do now?

Well, certainly the research component at MIT.

I always worked in media growing up, and what I did at MIT was to direct a very

large-scale media project at the Institute.

Again, physical aesthetics, physique, has always been something I've done since my

20s when I, through a series of life changes, ended up in Houston.

The joke that I always tell people is I met a guy at a gala, a

billionaire, and he was like, "what are you bringing in?" He said,

[fake Texas accent] "well, son, you can either be smart or pretty here, but you

can't be both." I guess I chose pretty for the second half of my life.

[laughter]Oh my God, thank you for that.

And the accent.

Appreciate that.

Doing the best I can.

What kind of research did you do to start exploring this? And how did you find the

practices that work for you? What advice would you give someone who's starting to

train and has a vision for themselves ,sort of like what you do.

Like anything in life, there's sort of a core series of tenants that will work for

everyone in terms of embracing a fitness journey.

And there are really three tenants to what we do in the sport.

It's training, nutrition and recovery.

So what I did initially was, like most

kids, I'm 18, 20 years old when I started, and that was in the 80s and early 90s.

And we had supplements like Brewer's yeast

and amino acids, kind of hinky, ("hinky," meaning nonsense)

Gainers Fuel, just tons of like basically coffee freamer and

rice carbohydrates in a powder form of protein.

[sarcastic] Sounds fun.

So again, it was the beginning of

understanding how do I enhance what I'm doing in the gym with my nutrition, and

then the supplementation components and reading a ton of stuff, getting all the

bodybuilding magazines that were available then, and just trying to understand as

much as I could about what was I to do, how do I train?

And it just takes a long time to do that.

And everyone, when they begin their journey, no matter what age, when I'm

taking someone in, I'm showing a lot of shortcuts and a lot of shorthand to get

the results a lot more quickly and rapidly.

But a lot of it is just really doing the work, getting in the gym, doing basic,

straightforward, simple but effective exercises.

You are eating a lot of lean protein.

That's chicken, that's egg whites, that's

some protein powders, lean cuts of red meat.

If that's something you do. I don't eat a lot of red meat.

You eat a lot of vegetables, clean vegetables, like sort of just raw.

I eat a lot of raw broccoli, Brussels

sprouts, beans, green beans, these kinds of things.

And I don't eat many carbohydrates at all.

That's kind of where guys like me live.

That's clean eating.

That means you're not eating processed foods.

You're not having a cheat meal once a week.

There's no alcohol.

There's a lot of restriction.

It's a lot of misery.

And so can the human body be hacked? Are

there concrete methods to gain concrete results in what you're doing?

Absolutely. There are a myriad of shortcuts

and sort of keys to the...I call it the keys to the kingdom.

And it really has a lot to do with food timing.

This game is all about hormones.

And for a guy like me who's completely natural in my 50s,

still not using any even hormone replacement therapy because that's...

Guys around 35, 37 start going to the

testosterone clinics and start just getting injectable testosterone.

But I just game my hormones to keep my testosterone levels as high as possible.

My cortisol levels as low as possible.

My insulin, which is kind of the biggest

hormone in the game, the most sensitive that I can, all the time.

And I do that by sleeping eight to nine hours every day, by not

having an incredibly stressed-out life, which drives my ex-wife to madness.

And the way I eat.

And I also use intermittent fasting.

And I have almost for 35 years, I do intermittent fasting.

It's interesting what you're saying

because you're so aware of everything going on with your mind and body.

It is a science and a lifestyle.

And earlier I said like a work of art, it

seems like your life is your work of art that you're curating.

I'm very curious about endorphins, working out, your mood.

And are you happy?

There are days it's absolute misery to get through it.

If I'm doing a 72-hour fast and I will do a 72-hour fast almost monthly.

And there's a lot of reasons I do that.

Autophagy is a term we throw around.

Immunological resets.

Also really just kind of cleaning my body up.

But on those 72 hours, I can get pretty miserable.

On days that I'm cutting in for a shoot....

I just got back from Mexico on Tuesday and I had to cut in for a shoot.

My Thanksgiving was chicken and broccoli,

where everyone else is sitting there hammering pie.

And I love pie!

So there are days when you're hormonally gamed, you're beat up, and what you have

to work through, or what I tell myself when I'm working with someone...

I'm like, you need to kind of muscle through that.

You need to move through that stuff.

You accept it.

You sort of put it where it needs to be.

But you know that you are going for a longer result.

I sit around 185 pounds. I'm six foot one.

That's kind of my happy weight.

I can go down to 181 when I want to be ridiculously, 2% body fat, lean.

And I can go up to 190 and fluff up and be really buff and still have pretty abs.

But for about three months a year I like to go up to about 200 to 210 pounds.

That really gives my body and my mind the break, and it allows me to restart the

process of chipping away at the "David." Chipping the David out.

I love that. The artist is present.

As you say, it is exactly that.

It is a science and it is an art.

There is no one way that anyone gets to

the place they need to get to, and that's why the journey takes ...It should be

enjoyed and should be looked at as a lifelong process.

I learned things every year that I didn't know the year previously.

I'm in better shape today than I was at 50, than I absolutely was at 35.

I've always been lean.

I've always been pretty ripped, other than

the year my first child was born, but I've always kind of kept it together.

So I learned something every year.

And now as I age, it's a game of hormones.

I love that you mentioned that. It looks different for everybody and everybody on

their own journey individually, how do you use biohacking for your training, and in

your opinion, what works and what doesn't work?

The best piece of advice I can offer most

people is intermittent fasting is the real deal.

Biohacking is a new term.

When I was at MIT, we called it life extension, but none of this stuff is new.

So the biggest thing I can recommend in

terms of a biohack for anyone is to really experiment with intermittent fasting.

Start fasting at least 12 hours every day.

Have your last meal at seven or whatever,

and then don't eat again until seven or eight the next day.

That's an easy thing to do for most people.

The most important hormone you're going to play with in your body is your insulin.

So what I always preach to people is insulin sensitivity.

We want our insulin sensitivity as high as possible.

Why is insulin the most important hormone

in the body? Why is insulin the most important?

No, that's an opinion. There, of course.

Everything, of course, is an opinion! In your opinion, then?

Yeah, my opinion is it's the most important hormone because it kind of

governs a lot of the things that are most important to what I do.

And so when you keep your insulin sensitivity high, as soon as you're

putting foods into your body, carbohydrates, everything in your body

runs on glycogen or glucose, carbohydrates, sugar, everything.

Your body is fueled by blood sugar.

So if you have tons of food in your system all the time, your body's like, oh, I

don't need to use this because I've already got a high blood sugar level.

So I'm going to put this into the storage.

Here comes more calories.

They're going to go into storage. Storage.

Adipose tissue.

Adipose tissue is a pretty name for fat.

So by keeping your insulin sensitivity high, as soon as you put foods in your

body, it's converting that to blood sugar, to energy.

Right away it's being used.

It's not in danger of being stored.

The other big bio hack is to take the

majority of your calories from protein sources.

The primary thing I do is make sure that I'm getting 200 grams of protein a day.

That's going to take 1200 to 1500 of my calories away.

Again, I don't count my calories anymore.

But when you start in this game, you should, just to begin to understand,

because eventually you'll just get to where you know what you're doing.

Once I get the protein in my body, then I

can decide whether I want faster carbohydrates to encompass the residual

calories that I need to get through my day.

But make protein the primary source of

your calories on any given day, the primary source of your meals, getting your

carbs and your healthy fats in there as well as needed.

And you're going to really keep your insulin sensitivity extraordinarily high,

in addition to doing that, intermittent fast for minimally 12 hours.

Wow.

We learned so much. Yes.

I'm taking it all in my mind.

I'm like, I got to do a pushup.

Yeah.

I love this art form that you've taken on,

and I think that your body is your work of art, and we really see and respect that.

It's pretty cool. Thank you so much for sharing.

Absolutely. It's been my pleasure.

Reflection time, reflection time. Bodybuilder, huh?

Yeah.

I am somebody who has been in the weight room recently.

So hearing all that was interesting and a little bit intimidating.

I was like, I don't want to do that.

I thought it was cool the way that he was

an artist and his body was his work of art, and that was really his vision.

And then also how deeply he clearly understood science.

Hormones, metabolic rate, diet, down to every last calorie.

Right. I think he was prioritizing hormones.

I was like, wow, that one is more important than the other one.

And he talked about the diet and the broccoli and the chicken.

So biohacking is serious, real and intense.

And he's someone who's on top of it.

Well, I'm not sure if I love the social side of it.

He was like, "this is pretty miserable,"

but it was insightful, at least. But I still want to go out and have a beer.

Yeah.

I dig his honesty.

There he was straight up like, you know,

it's really miserable sometimes, but it's what he's clearly passionate about.

First of all, he looked 30, maybe?

He had a little glow to him, didn't he?

Yes, he looked young.

Yeah, yeah.

I think he hacked the aging process.

And I love how he just put a system around it.

A lot of these things we already know sleep, work out, drink water, but he put a

system in a regimen that was pretty strict around that.

And so it's interesting how the body responds to systems, I guess.

Yeah. And science.

Straight up science.

Hi, this is Angelica Pasquini from So Curious!

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Literally, go do it right now.

Okay, let's get into the bio-design side

of biohacking. Hi, Ricky, can you introduce yourself?

I'm currently the CEO and co-founder of

Biorealize, and we are on a mission to make it easier to design with biology.

Part of that entails being able to empower

designers, really industrial designers, product designers, architectural

designers, to understand how to integrate bio-design into their workflows.

The world of biology is growing every day,

and there's so much to learn, so much to understand and standards to create.

And so all this really stems from...

Consumers are starting to realize that we want to think more consciously about

sustainability and the products that we buy.

Right. So we think about, like, how can we buy

things not just for their usage, but for their entire life cycle? So from start to

finish, like, okay, we buy something, and then where does it go?

So it sounds like sustainability is obviously very important to you.

We're curious about your desire to bring biology and design closer together,

obviously, through the lens of sustainability.

Could you expand on what inspired you to

found Biorealize, and trace your journey for us to where you are today?

The founding happened some years ago by the co-founders, Karen and Orkin, who were

professors of bio-design at the University of Pennsylvania.

And they saw...

It was really difficult for him to teach

his design students just about anything about biology.

Right. And this is about seven to ten years ago.

And so they set out to start thinking about how to make it easier.

And part of that, they realized that the tools and the platforms needed standards.

It needed to become a lot easier to digest.

Yeah, that's been a running theme in a lot of the conversations we've been having.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

designing through biology.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

What exactly does that mean?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

The way we feel about it is they're designers and designers when they're

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

thinking about it, and when we think about it is like, people using stuff.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

So designers make things that people use, and anything that they make when it

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

integrates biology, that's what we say is bio-design.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Okay.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

A large part of bio-design today is about using organisms, and more specifically,

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

probably, bacteria, using them as a useful tool to be of value to humans.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Previously, for example, cotton was grown in the fields.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Right now they are making bacteria that produces cotton in tanks, and that is in a

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

more sustainable fashion at a lower cost and better performance.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

That's more sustainable, growing the

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

cotton in the tank as opposed to in a field?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

A field, correct. Yeah.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

It's interesting because the through-line

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

through all of learning this week has been that with innovation, now everyone's

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

hacking, everyone's biohacking, saving time and energy...

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

A lot. Like what you're talking about is

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

bio-design, a hack to what is currently and properly available for production.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

It's interesting.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

I think that the big pull is from the sustainability aspect.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

It always starts as a hack. Yeah.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Because you're just prototyping, you're trying to figure stuff out.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Everyone sees that biodesign can have an

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

impact in terms of having us live a more sustainable life.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Yeah. But then we have to think about, well, how

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

about performance and how about cost? Because then we won't have adoption.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Your primary product is the B reactor,

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

which is the only portable network smart incubator system on the market. Can you

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

explain how it works and all that scientific jargon that I just said?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Yeah, I think the B reactor at its core is just really about helping people who don't

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

have access to biology infrastructure to grow bacteria at the desktop.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

And that all goes back to, how do we make

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

it easier, faster, more simple to get into the field?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

A lot of the people that we're trying to serve are in a room just like this one.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Yeah.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

And so we want to put an easy device on their table that they can grow bacteria,

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

start doing biology in an easier way and innovate.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Yeah. It's what makes it more accessible.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

And so you guys offer tools in brewing, food and beverage, fashion and design.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

So this is a pretty wide range.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

I'm curious, what type of goods are you bio-designing that you're really into?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Right now? We actually have three categories,

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

biodegradation, biomineralization, and biosynthesis.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

So biodegradation basically...

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Explain

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

...That's about all this stuff that can be decomposted.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Biomineralization is about.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

there are bacteria that can create minerals.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

So instead of using, like, glue, you can use minerals to adhere to things together.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Biosynthesis is basically like creating dyes.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

It's a bacteria. It creates something that's useful, like a

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

dye, a pigment, and you can use that for some application of interest.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Could you reflect on the idea of bio-design as an interdisciplinary project

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

and how it changes your understanding of both biology and the arts?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

We love having artists within our community trying to use bacteria or other

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

organisms to make art and as a form of self-expression. It's all about the human

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

taking control over something to make something.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

It's funny because you're featured on the

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

same episode as a bodybuilder, because it's a biohacking episode.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

And we're curious about this large spectrum of hacking and biohacking.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

And we were just curious if you can speak to the spectrum of biohacking.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

When I think of hacking, I think of it as like, they're the rebels.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

They want to make stuff just because they can.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Yeah! And on that note, you want to expand

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

the accessibility of biofabrication to everyone, right?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

You want to be able to get to more of the good stuff, expanding people to be able to

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

be creative and apply that creativity in useful ways of value to humans.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Yeah.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

And do so within a way of understanding what some of the restrictions are.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

And a lot of that comes into not so much the tools, but the bacteria.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

And that actually is really restricted by

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

the companies that sell or produce those bacteria.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

So can you talk about some dream products that you or you would love to see someone

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

else design or create? Like, what do you see in the future?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Yeah, in terms of some of the things that we dream about within the company are

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

consumer-based apparel that could have integrations of biology.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

So imagine your sneakers have bacteria that are either cooling you as you walk,

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

or being able to have sneakers that kind of biodegrade over time.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Some of the other things we dream about

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

are having electronics space products that we could throw in our backyard.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Like a cell phone, just like. Yeah, like a cell phone guy.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Yeah, exactly. So I'm kind of done with the lifecycle of

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

this thing, and I wanted to just throw it away.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Instead of throwing it in the garbage, you throw it in your backyard.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

I want to throw it in my backyard. I know.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Let's just biodegrade it all.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

It's so gorgeous as an idea.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Part of that is because there's a lot of people today that do throw away their

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

phones in the garbage, and it's actually not good.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

If we could get to a place where people could just throw it away, even if it's in

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

the garbage, then that's going to be healthier for us.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Yes.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

I feel like it's like eliminating people having to do the right thing.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

All right.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

We'll just make it easier to let you throw it out.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

So on your website, Ricky, you describe the urgent need to redesign and scale

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

everyday products with biology that are more sustainable and healthier for us and

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

our environment. Can you explain a little bit further the urgency of bio-design and

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

sustainability? Does this need to happen yesterday,

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

some of the ways we're interacting with our world and our environment?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

I think we're more on, like, a 10-20 year urgency that we really need to think about

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

in terms of the amount of plastic in the world, the greenhouse gas emissions.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

So all those things in terms of really about....petrochemicals, like the way that

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

we're including petrochemicals into products.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

And it's not so much that we use plastic,

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

it's the fact that we continue to produce new plastic.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

So it's kind of like, one is about being

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

able to access the plastic that's already in the ground that we've thrown away, or

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

two, it's about creating products that we could just throw away that don't have any

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

plastic or don't have any petrochemicals, more than anything.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Do you notice a shift in quality when you use these materials?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

A lot of people have been able to innovate

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

materials that seem very promising, so they have the same properties to be able

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

to maintain the packaged items and the packaged goods.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

There are some companies that already have

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

been making leaps and bounds in terms of packaging.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

There's a company called Innovative Design that does mushroom-based packaging.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

It's really cool.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Instead of plastics for packaging, things like Dell computers and things like that.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Where do you see room for quicker

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

improvements from the everyday person side of their life, biohacking, their habits,

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

or from the big businesses and corporations that are packaging all these

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

things and shipping it daily and across the planet and things like that? Where is

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

the improvement to be made and where can it be done faster?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

On the consumer side, it's about the mental awareness, like being selective

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

about the sustainability, knowing and thinking conscientiously to look, to

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

double-check. What is the life cycle of this product going to be?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Yeah, I certainly don't ask that.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Sometimes I do, if I get a cell phone, how long will I have this?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

It's something like that?

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Maybe it's not obvious today, but maybe it'll be obvious in a year from now.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

And just noticing, "I wonder where this is

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

actually going," or how is this being removed back into the world kind of thing.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

So I think from the consumer side, it's more about just mental awareness.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

On the corporation side, they could be

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

making bigger investments in terms of integrating new technologies, new

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

packaging materials, new materials in general, or new processes that are all

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

about thinking about their carbon footprint.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Yes, for real.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

It's kind of both of those coming together in the center, the consumer mental shift

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

and the investments from the corporations on carbon footprint.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

And then the third piece is the governments making that slight push.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

We're going to find ourselves going in a better direction, I think.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

I love that. Yeah.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Wow. Thank you so much.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

We learned a lot. Yeah.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Thank you so much.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

It is about that time, Ang, reflection time.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Man. That was fun.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

And I really love the idea of just throwing things into my backyard.

And just to take a step back, bio-design:

Me too. I can't wait.

throw my bed, throw my shoes [laughter].

Yeah! The work that he's doing is really interesting, too.

And trying to alleviate pressure on

consumers so we can just make decisions more streamlined, more clearly.

Yeah. I mean, what a cool way

to innovate with technology that is using our Earth to then

become, later, part of our Earth without the human being needing to honestly do all

of this life admin around every time you buy something.

Yeah.

People aren't doing it. There's a lot of work.

Yeah. You might cut that out.

Absolutely. We talked about recycling.

Right.

And there's a number numerical system, one to six.

And I don't even know if the city here, or

New York, or in other cities, handles all those numbers.

No, it doesn't. You really have to know it.

And so I appreciate the idea of having less pressure on us.

Okay, let's finish strong.

On this episode, we are bringing back our recurring segment today, Body of

Knowledge, with Chief Bioscientist at the Franklin Institute, Dr.

Jayatri Das.

In this segment, we are going to ask some questions and talk about the ideas about

biohacking, in kind of an open-forum style.

Then we are going to take to the Internet

and see what people on Google are searching for.

Welcome, Jayatri.

On this episode, we're going to be talking about biohacking.

And I would love to just get some brief reflections from you.

So I think what's really interesting about biohacking is that there are different

ways that we think about what that word means.

And we've heard

two very different examples of how people think about biohacking.

So if I were to try and find, what is that common theme?

It's this idea that we can look at the tools that nature has made

for ourselves, for the way that our bodies work, for the way that living things in

nature work, and think about how we use those tools for different purposes. Right.

So we think about manufacturing other things, like fabric,

or art, and things like that using biological tools.

But we can also think about, okay, how can

we optimize these biological tools to make ourselves better?

Right. When I hear biohacking, the word "hacking"

jumps off to me, and I guess that suggests that something is not going the way you

want it to go or something's going awry and you're trying to fix it.

But I never think about my body in any way

where it's like, oh, this isn't going right...

Unless I get out of bed and my shoulder's

cracking or something like that, I'm like, "what's going on with that?"

Yeah. I generally like the way I'm functioning.

That's good. That's a blessing.

I think the hacking, too, is very much like, how do I make a shortcut?

How do I get an advancement?

How do I... you know, life hacks are often

just things that are very simple ideas, like a shortcut, a way to skip over

something that might be taking too much time or effort.

Yeah. No, I think both of those are really good

perceptions of how we think about this idea of hacking.

And when we apply it to biology,

it's this idea that we don't have to just sit back and watch anymore.

Right.

We now understand how biology works in such a way that we

can use it for shortcuts or we can use it to think about how do we not just

stay comfortable with who we are and have to accept that, but actually be proactive

about building yourself into something else that you might want to be.

Right! I love the idea of bodybuilding

because I've always been a little skinny kid, especially growing up.

And so the idea of taking supplements and

meal prepping and having a bunch of chicken and protein and these things kind

of, I guess, concentrating your effort to build a bigger shoulder, a bigger calf

muscle or something like that, I haven't been able to master that too well.

But I like the idea of it. But I don't know.

That doesn't strike me as biohacking.

It's like, well, you're just dieting and eating.

Right. But am I wrong in assuming that?

No.

I mean, you can think of biohacking as kind of on this spectrum.

Right?

Like if you're looking at meditation, I know that Angelica you're into meditation.

That can be sort of a very low-level type of biohacking.

I know that this is how my brain works,

and I'm going to repurpose that to accomplish a certain goal.

So that's a very simple level.

You could be a biohacker, right? Yeah.

In a way, it does feel that way.

It's like a magic trick sometimes because you can catch the loop.

As long as you can find that space in

between the two thoughts, you kind of take your power back, you know what I'm saying?

Right. In that very cyclical moment.

So it is like a hack.

I was going to say, have you found that, like studying or when you're meditating?

People say when you're physically writing something or physically touching a book,

it kind of sits in your brain a little longer. Is that biohacking? Is studying

for a final a biohack that students are doing across the country?

I think where my mind goes is that

biohacking is kind of working outside the system a little bit.

Right. All hacking has that.

Yes. Snowden, Edward Snowden.

They're the anarchists of the science world, these hackers.

I love that. I'm always attracted to the hackers

because I'm like, "what's really going on, man?"

Love it, love it. Right.

I'm not necessarily advocating that breaking laws or anything in there,

because in some cases, the laws haven't even caught up to what's possible.

That's a whole different conversation.

But there's a little bit of trying to break the rules.

Whether it's because you want to improve your health, whether

you want to control your body, whether you want to sort of fend off aging.

Like, these are different reasons.

If you're thinking about body hacking in particular,

these are all different reasons why people think about doing that.

So it's a little bit of just trying to think outside the box.

Totally. Right. Is cancer research

somewhere in that spectrum of biohacking, trying to get around these

cells that multiply and ultimately , unfortunately, kill a lot of people?

That's a question that I think starts to

get at the nuance here, because the way that most cancer research is done

is kind of within the confines of an established system of research.

Right. Because there are so many safeguards to

protect people's health and things like that.

But I think the mindset of a scientist is a little bit of a hacker mindset.

Right. For sure.

One of the biggest breakthroughs in cancer

research that has come about in the last decade or so is this idea of hacking your

body's own immune system to fight cancer cells.

Right. So I think that's kind of like a hacker

mindset within sort of like the established structure of medical research.

Okay. So we, of course, hit up the Internet.

We ask the Google. Amazing.

Let's move into the second half of this segment, Body of Knowledge Autofill.

We typed in our keyword "biohacking," and

Google gave us the most searched questions that people have been asking, in the

privacy of their own homes, online when they think no one can read it.

So let's read off some of the most popular

questions people are asking Google about biohacking.

The first one is, "is biohacking ethical?" That's a good one.

Yeah.

That's such a fuzzy line to draw, right? Yeah.

I mean, it's a little nail on the head. Okay.

It's not a very nuanced question.

It's very like, "so is it ethical or what?" People want to know.

That's going to be the first one because

people are like, all right, is this right or wrong?

I think that's kind of the gut instinct people get when they hear about it.

They want to make it human, sort of.

I think some people kind of make that

decision themselves, too, when they first hear it.

"We can make you smarter tomorrow if you

inject yourself" and say, "well, I don't know if I want to do that."

Mm-hmm.

But if somebody makes their own decision to put a computer chip in their finger or

something, sure, whatever, i t's your own body.

I think where the ethical questions around

biohacking start to get more nebulous is now that we can actually change genes.

That...Okay...

What does that mean about making your own decisions?

Like, who makes those decisions for you?

What if you change the genes that aren't

just in your own body, but are the genes that you pass along to your children?

Right. Wow.

Do they have a choice? Yeah.

It's so true.

I think if you stay kind of at the shallow

level, that life hacks kind of thing that it's like, okay, we're okay with this, but

with new technology that is changing what it means about what's possible. The

ethical questions get a lot thornier, right?

Yeah.

This next one sounds so funny to me, and I just want to see your reactions to this.

"Biohacking is not a crime."

I feel like this with someone being like,

"biohacking is not a crime...right? I'm not wrong, right? Am I guilty? Am I going to jail?"

Right.

Yeah. They typed it out slowly:

"it's not a crime, right?

Yeah. They typed it out slowly:

It's a guilty question.

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It is really kind of fascinating, the experiments that people do on themselves.

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Oh, go on.

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There's like, the people who literally

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think that, oh, I want to be able to open a card swipe door with my hand.

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And so I'm just going to put that RFID chip under my skin.

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And then there are the bodybuilders who learn about gene editing and think that

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"everybody does it...it's j ust like the vitamin supplements.

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What I'm going to do is actually try and change my own genes to build my own

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muscle." And maybe that's not such a great idea.

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Yeah. You know what else it makes me think of?

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Like designer dogs, when people curate a dog that they want.

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Yeah. I mean, I know we're talking about humans,

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but also even just in pets, it happens, like creating the pets, hypoallergenic

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, certain kind of face, certain kind of color, everything.

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I don't want to trail off too much, but I thought I saw a headline maybe a couple of

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months ago about trying to bring back the Woolly Mammoth?

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Oh, yeah.

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And I'm like, is this an Onion article or is this real?

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I think that is absolutely 100% real.

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People are interested in doing that and taking steps towards that.

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It is. And that's where these are questions that

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of like, "wait, what should science be doing?" Right?

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Because the people who want to bring back

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the woolly mammoth suggest that by bringing back the woolly

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mammoth, we can tackle environmental degradation and things like that.

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But aren't there 50 other things that we

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should be doing before we go to biohacking?

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That's exactly what I gut went to.

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I was like, we still have hungry kids in the US.

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So hold up.

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Before you bring back the Woolly Mammoth...

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Can you make a comedy sketch out of that, "Before you bring back the woolly mammoth..." I love that.

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Things to do before bringing back the

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Woolly mammoth. We've got things on the agenda.

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I love that.

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The next one here is "biohacking is amazing."

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It's such a subjective thing...

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If you don't think biohacking absolutely can be amazing.

Yeah. They typed it out slowly:

Yeah.

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But then there's something like, "wait, what?"

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Yeah. I mean, it is caused for amazement, right?

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I think "amazing" denotes positive feelings in all of us, generally speaking.

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I think one of my favorite examples of biohacking, like

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an artist who, used under the principle of biohacking, made cheese from celebrities.

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Wait, what does that mean? Oh, my God.

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By collecting bacteria from famous people

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from their armpits and toes and belly buttons and using that to make cheese.

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Wow.

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So that's a different way to think about it.

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Wow. I'm wrapping my mind around that.

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And did people buy it? It was art.

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Oh, it was.

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That's another hilarious term, art.

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We won't go there.

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I didn't mean to come across as being judgmental of art as a scientist.

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No, it's hilarious to call it art, I'm

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saying the bacteria cheese from a celebrity.

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Wow. Yeah.

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That's still washing over me. Me too.

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I can't even have a response to that right now, like that's just...

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I'm sure it was a commentary of sorts.

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And I'd love to read the artist statement, which is always a little more intense

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than, it can be more interesting than the work itself.

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But if you think about biohacking as a way

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to use biology outside the confines of the system, there you go.

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Within that context, I am amazed.

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That's absolutely amazing.

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So, "biohacking for weight loss." Interesting.

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I mean, intermittent fasting.

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I see that often as one of the classic hacks.

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Yeah.

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I'm actually not up to speed on what the evidence for that is.

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But I know a lot of people do it.

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And the last one, you want to go for it? Sure.

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"Biohacking for longevity."

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Oh, this is an interesting one. Okay.

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Because one

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mindset that is common among many biohackers is this idea that, "why be

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constrained by the human body?" Like, "what is death?" Right?

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Right. Let's just get rid of it.

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Why do we need to die?

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Let's just change our bodies so we keep living.

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So you see things like people injecting,

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like doing blood transfusions from young people as a way to try and fend off aging.

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Wow.

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I did not know that.

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Is that some, like, upper-echelon, need to have a lot of..? It sounds expensive.

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Probably.

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Like getting a blood transfusion for cosmetic reasons.

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Right.

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That sounds very bougie to me. Yeah.

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You probably can't go to CVS for that.

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People are waiting for those for really intense reasons.

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And then I guess there's people that are like, I'd love to look a little younger.

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Let's give it a go. Yeah.

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I mean, all these questions are so interesting because it denotes some kind

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of concern or worry about life as we understand it.

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"I don't like that part of life and I don't want this function of it." And I'm

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hearing some of these examples is just blowing my mind.

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I'm just...

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Mind-blowing.

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Thanks so much, Jayatri.

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And thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of So Curious!

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This podcast is part of The Franklin Institute.

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The Franklin Institute is a science museum located in Philadelphia.

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The Franklin Institute's mission is to

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inspire a passion for learning about science and technology.

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For more information on everything about the Franklin Institute, visit fi.edu.

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Radio Kismet is Philadelphia's premier

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Check them out at radiokismet.com.

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There are a lot of people who make this podcast happen.

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Thanks to the producers, Joy Montefusco and Jayatr Das.

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