Today, we’re diving into a topic that many parents may face but rarely talk about openly: navigating menopause while raising young kids. If you’ve been wondering how to balance parenting with the changes menopause brings, this episode is for you. In our first interview on Menstrual Cycle Awareness, we explored how menstruation impacts our lives. Today, we’re thrilled to welcome back our wonderful guests, Alexandra Pope and Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer, for a second interview focusing on menopause. Alexandra Pope, Co-Founder of Red School and Co-Author of Wild Power and Wise Power, is a pioneer in menstruality education and awareness. With over 30 years of experience, Alexandra believes that each stage of the menstrual journey—from the first period to menopause and beyond—holds a unique power. Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer, also Co-Founder of Red School and Co-Author of Wild Power and Wise Power, is a psychotherapist and menstrual cycle educator. She is passionate about helping people understand and honor their natural rhythms, using menstrual cycle awareness as a tool for self-care and empowerment. In this conversation, they’ll share their insights on embracing menopause as a time of empowerment rather than something to simply endure. They introduce us to their concept of “Wild Power,” a strength that arises from understanding and honoring your body’s natural rhythms through every stage of life.

Why Menopause Matters in Parenting

When we have kids a bit on the 'later' side, we may find ourselves dealing with perimenopause - when our body prepares for menopause - as we're raising young children. This experience can bring challenges, like feeling more tired or dealing with mood changes, but it also offers us new ways to grow and find our inner strength. Alexandra and Sjanie show us how we can be more understanding and open with ourselves and others as we go through this time of change.

What You'll Learn in This Episode:

• What is Menopause? Alexandra and Sjanie explain what menopause and perimenopause are and how these natural changes affect us physically and emotionally;
• The Wild Power Within: Discover how your unique energy can be a guiding force in both your personal life and in parenting;
• Tools to Support Yourself: Simple ways to be kinder to yourself, balance rest with activity, and embrace each phase with a sense of discovery;
• Reconnecting with Yourself: Learn how you can stay grounded and connected to your inner self as you navigate the ups and downs of menopause.

 

Listen in to this powerful conversation that might just change the way you think about parenting—and about yourself.

 

Alexandra and Sjanie’s books

(Affiliate Links):

• Wild power: Discover the magic of your menstrual cycle and awaken the feminine path to power
• Wise power: Discover the liberating power of menopause to awaken authority, purpose and belonging

 

Episodes mentioned:

• 222: How to cultivate Menstrual Cycle Awareness

• 216: Am I in Perimenopause? with Dr. Louise Newson

  Jump to highlights: 00:03 Introducing today’s episode and featured guests 00:52 Understanding menopause and it's stages 03:02 Introduction to menopause terminology: perimenopause, menopause, post-menopause 05:34 Phases compared to seasons, each with unique emotional and psychological developments 06:44 Defining menopause and it's psychological impact 08:51 Importance of self-care and preparation for menopause 09:59 "Quickening" phase introduces a creative energy shift 17:43 Navigating menopause as a parent 18:15 Challenges for parents in their 40s during menopause 21:00 Importance of self-acceptance, setting boundaries, and receiving partner support 24:44 Symptoms and self-care in menopause 34:29 Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) and it's implications 44:16 The role of the inner critic in menopause 54:18 Final thoughts and resources  

Jen Lumanlan: 00:52

Hello and welcome to the your Parenting Mojo podcast. In this conversation, we're getting back on track with our conversations on menopause, which we're doing because so many of the parents I work with had children so late that we're finding ourselves dealing with young children, some of whom are only just approaching puberty at the same time as we are going through our own perimenopause. A couple of months ago, I interviewed Dr. Louise Newson to get a medical take on what is menopause and how we can navigate it more effectively a member in the parenting membership had also mentioned a book co-authored by today's guests, Alexandra Pope and Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer, which is called wise power. And when I did some reading around, I also found their book wild power, which is on the topic of menstrual cycle awareness. I immediately saw how an awareness of menstrual cycles is kind of important background for talking about menopause. So, Alexandra and Sjanie were kind enough to agree to two interviews, the one on menstrual cycle awareness that we've already released, and today's conversation on menopause. I think it's important to note from the outset that Alexandra and Sjanie are coming at this from a very different perspective than Dr. Newson. They aren't doctors, for one thing, but they do have decades of experience in supporting women to navigate their menstrual cycles, and we might do well to remember that menopause is a normal transition that will happen to those of us who menstruate, and maybe seeing it as a health crisis might not be the most empowering thing we can do. So here with us once again to work through the high-level ideas about our menopausal experience as well as what that actually means for how we can support ourselves and also be supported through the experience. Are Alexandra Pope and Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer. Welcome back, Alexandera. It's great to see you.

Alexandra Pope: 02:37

Oh, thank you so much, Jen. It's lovely to be back

Jen Lumanlan: 02:41

And welcome Shani as well.

Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer: 02:43

Thank you. Thanks, Jen. Looking forward to this, yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 02:47

So, let's kind of start in the same way as we did in our conversation on menstrual cycle awareness, with some definitions, right? Because I think probably most people have heard of menopause, but maybe not everyone knows what perimenopause is. So, can you tell us kind of how you define some of those terms?

Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer: 03:02

Yeah, that's a very good place to start with this conversation, actually, because we feel there's a lot of confusion out there. For such a long time, menopause wasn't spoken about, and now it's being spoken about everywhere, and this terminology is being flung around, and I'm not sure anyone really knows what any of it means, or just that people are using the terms in different ways. So, there's the medical definition of perimenopause, and actually that seems to be used in a couple of ways. So, once you know when you're well in your menstruating years, coming sort of towards the end of your 30s, beginning of your 40s, it's different for everyone. You start to experience hormonal shifts that culminate in the cessation of your menstrual cycle, what the medical world would call menopause, no more bleeding and perimenopause is that gradual hormonal shift. However, people are also using the word, really as a way of pathologizing and talking about the kind of symptoms that start to happen when these hormonal shifts occur. So, it's very much used as a kind of medicalized term. And then some people are talking about perimenopause as the time surrounding the end of your bleed, like the whole menopause transition. So, for us, we like to really distinguish what's going on here, because they really are different life phases and stages. So, a good way of thinking about this is in the kind of height of your fertile years, let's say from about age 28 to 40. That is what we think of as the summer of your menstruating years. So, this is really the kind of peak time of fertility. And then you shift into the autumn of your menstruating years, where you are. Still fertile, but things are gradually starting to shift and change. And then following on from that, you come into the winter of your menstruating years, which is the kind of end of your cycling days, the time when your cycle stops and sort of leading into post menopause life, or we could call that your second spring time after you no longer menstruate. So, menopause for us is a transitional phase. It's this inner winter, if you like, and it lasts for anywhere from like two to five years around that time of your periods ending, and when we talk about menopause, we're really talking about the psycho spiritual shift that happens, the inner transformation that occurs over that period of time. So that's quite different to the medical definition of menopause, which is really when you haven't led for one year. Yeah, they talk about menopause as a moment, and really we talk about menopause as a transition. Yeah, so I'm glad you asked that question, because we find it really helpful to be clear on this different life stage is not to muddle them and bundle them all into one, because each of these phases is distinct and is serving something very different for us in terms of our psychological and emotional development.

Jen Lumanlan: 06:33

Yeah, beautiful. Thank you. I'm guessing Alexandra has something to add to that as the person in the room has experienced.

Alexandra Pope: 06:41

I think I want to just emphasize whether, when you move into the autumn of your menstruating years, your 40s, you may. I just want to emphasize that symptoms arising within your menstrual cycle aren't a given. You know that it people immediately think, oh, 40s, yes. You know, things change. It's becoming more, yeah. And certainly on the psychologically, things change, absolutely, there will be more existential questions arising in you, and there'll be more as Yes, emotional inner work, yes, inner work going on, and a feeling of some kind of power that's not quite getting released, or something that needs releasing, and there's something more that you're needing to do or be or want that's of a much deeper nature. And I don't want the 40s to be sort of CO opted into the menopause, into the menopause conversation, unless, of course, you go through menopause. Actually, you know, because some people do go through early menopause, I want to acknowledge that, because I the 40s are a kind of Cosmos all their own, where I think that's so much about, really mastery. It's just really relishing your sense of agency, relishing the things you've done, feeling your capacity in what you're doing. It's like you've got a confidence now that you did not have in your 20s and 30s, and it's really lovely. And actually it's really good, healthy ego. I want to say ego strutting should be going on, you know. I mean, a good dose of arrogance. It all get, you know, It'll all get, it'll all go through the washing machine at menopause. But you need to feel, yeah, I'm bloody brilliant, and yeah, and I'm good at these things. And to really enjoy your psychological muscle, I just really want to big the 40s up, not as this kind of doom laden, you know, the end is nigh.

Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer: 08:51

It's, yeah, just to add to that, it's actually, this is really something we're very passionate about, is changing the conversation, actually, about this life stage before menopause, because it is a kind of harvest time, and that it does come with its own vulnerabilities and challenges, because you are experiencing a hormonal shift, and you do need to change gears and adapt to what's happening in your body, and therefore your how your resilience to stress is changing. So, it is a profound gear change. But all of that is in preparation for menopause. It's really how the cycle is preparing you to repair, nourish, do the inner work that you need to do. So that when you face the big initiation of menopause, this big showdown where you really meet yourself, that you've actually got built some a good amount of self care, a good sense of yourself, and done some good inner work so that your kind of meeting it from a good place. So that's really what the 40s are about, and the autumn of your menstruating years, and this urgency. That Alexandra spoke about, where you know you feel this power waking up in you, you could say, where you feel this kind of creative call that's being ignited. That's a very big part of it. And we call it the quickening that starts to happen. And a lot of the time when we start to feel really RC and agitated and impatient with everyone and start to get all stroppy about everything. It's because there's this fire that's burning in us and it we want it to be about us now, and not about like the summer of your menstruating is very much about looking after other people and everyone else first, it becomes much more about you now and putting your calling and your mission and your creativity and your self-care first, so that, and that's quite a big thing to adapt to if you've spent your whole life putting others first, but it's important because it's preparing you for menopause.

Jen Lumanlan: 10:57

Yeah. Okay, so parents listening to this are gonna be like more inner work. I thought I was done with the inner work, but no, we're never done with the inner work. And I am so inspired by kind of the vision that you're painting here. And I think this kind of leads me into my next question, which is that you you do have this vision, right? You start both of your books with a vision for what you hope the world could look like, and you have this vision for a menopause journey. So I'd love it if you could kind of expand on this idea of a vision for us, for the menopause journey, but then also address like, what if I'm a parent who's in my mid-40s, and I'm, to me, it seems like I'm kind of staring down menopause, and I've still got a young kid, and I've got a partner who doesn't seem to be along for the ride, and is certainly not along for the ride of focusing on me for a change, right? Wait, how do I navigate? If that's where I am getting to this vision that that you want to realize?

Alexandra Pope: 11:51

All right? So, menopause is the culmination of a journey that use began with your very first bleed. And each decade of your menstruating years, we use this term the seasons of your menstruating years. And we talked about the 30s as the summer. Each decade has its own kind of tone and quality, and I suppose mission to it. You know that things for you to sort of it's about the development of yourself, growing into yourself. The menstrual cycle, journey from menarche to menopause is about this discovery of who you are and learning to hold and in claim that more and more and so by the time you get to menopause, you know, in this ideal world, you will feel that you have, I was going to say, fulfilled something, but that's probably not quite the word, but there's a sense that you're ready for the end. It's like, you know, you have done that in a work you you're ready for something more, something will feel like it's, it's coming to an end in you. And I do remember a moment with myself when I thought, You know what, I'm over my cycle now, and I've always loved, you know, well, once I've always, actually, I have actually, always loved my cycle, and I've always been aware of it since, you know, a fairly young age, and charted, you know, did fertility in ones, but, I mean, I did have menstrual, hideous menstrual pain that came in my 30s, which catalyzed all this work. And it was really embracing that, that opened all this work up. So yes, the menstrual cycle has had really helped me and and then there came a point where I thought, you know, I'm done with it. And there was this feeling of, I am ready for menopause. There was a kind of dignity. I had this subtle sense in my being of stepping up to something. And I do think at menopause, you're actually stepping up to a bigger game now in terms because menopause is this amazing moment of expansion of consciousness. You're growing more and more through your menstruating years into a kind of spiritual power. And it's almost like when you get to menopause, you should have this feeling, yeah, I'm grown up enough now to meet this bigger responsibility. And if I was to put that in simple terms, or one way I could speak about that is that at menopause, you are really stepping out of your small self-ego into a sense of self, which is about something so much bigger than you. So, to put it very crudely, menopause is helping you to get over yourself and to step into a consciousness in which, yes, you have an important role to play in serving the world. Whatever way that is, and who you are is very, very important. So, it's this deep embodiment you come into at menopause, and your menstruating years are building for that. So, it's a real claiming of yourself at menopause, and in that claiming, you just open up this gate to a greater sense of freedom and a greater sense of responsibility in a good way, in a good way. So, the vision I'm holding of menopause is that it is an extraordinary rite of passage into a more expanded consciousness, a place of actual of greater power. You're actually holding more power. You can actually have more effect in the world. You can actually have more authority, and that you're being set up to be a voice for life in your post menopause years. And yeah, that's the vision I'm holding.

Jen Lumanlan: 16:05

Yeah, I'm so appreciating that. And just before we go to shiny piece of the question I asked earlier, I just want to sort of expand a little bit the piece that you just said, which, you know, is answers the question that I asked, which is, you know, what is this vision for ourselves? But the piece that I also got from your book is, and this is supported by our culture, by everybody around us. This is seen as a normal kind of thing that happens to us, and it's not something to be feared, or something that you know well you basically, you're a washed-up husk after this. So, you know, like life has peaked already, and instead that that we see the value of people who have gone through this transition and have something else to offer to the world. So, I just want to make sure that that piece kind of comes in and cradles

Alexandra Pope: 16:55

Really, really crucial. You know, it is an initiation. And it's like, respect. It's like, you know, when a woman says, I want to, I want a woman or a person who's going through menopause to be able to to, sort of, I'm imagining in the workplace, you know, look up from her desk and go, oh, I've just had the call. I've got to go. Because it does feel like that actually, suddenly this really have to go. And especially the young men in the office go, Oh, wow. Oh, respect. This is my full running joke, you know. Oh, wait, we don't argue with, you know, we don't argue with them. Yeah, there's this real sense that it's dignified. I feel dignified, right? Yeah, that's what I'm working.

Jen Lumanlan: 17:41

Yeah. And maybe that's coming. I saw an article in The New York Times a few, just a few days ago, and I thought of you, and I was like, it's coming. And it was talking about shifts in the workplace and how the conversation is changing. But I want to kind of not lose sight of the question I ask in the beginning, which is, and what if we're looking at that and being like, I don't see how I'm going to get there. Shani, what would you say to that?

Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer: 18:04

Yeah, it's a very good question. In some ways, that's a very normal response, I think, when we are looking face on to some big life challenge, some big life initiation, whether that's giving birth, you know, and becoming a mother for the first time, or facing some major relationship breakup, or, in this case, menopause. I think it's very normal to kind of wonder if we've got what it takes, or if it'll be okay for us, or how it's ever going to happen. I think that's, in a way, part for the course. That's the nature of these big challenges we face in our life. And that's in a way as it should be, because what menopause is going to ask of each one of us? And I haven't been through menopause yet, but I've listened to so many stories, and I kind of get, I've got the headline, which is, menopause is going to ask you to dig deeper than you ever have before, and to do radical things, the things you thought you couldn't do or were too afraid to do, or were, or were somehow outside of who you think you are. It's going to really ask you to grow up, we could say, and to step into the power that you have. So, I want to just say that as a way to say not to worry, because, in a way, menopause guides you. I think, in the same way as giving birth does there is a process that you're held in, and menopause, in a way, is giving you cues and clues all the time about what you're needing and when you're needing it. The hard part is trusting that and honoring that in a society that doesn't get it, but that's really why we've written our book, and really why we talk about this new story of menopause, is because we want everyone to know that actually you have permission to slow down in menopause, because that's what your body is wanting to do. You are needing to rest. It is an inner winter. You are needing to retreat. You are needing to change gears. You are needing to live differently for a while, not forever. But this is a different life stage, and your needs are different. So, we hope that when you read our book and you hear what we're saying, you feel that permission. So, when you hear these prompts and cues from your body when you start to get sick or feel exhausted or experience extreme symptoms, you know that your body is asking you to take better care of yourself, and you dare to lean into that. So, have I answered your question, Jen?

Alexandra Pope: 20:57

I could come in and answer things. Yeah, go.

Jen Lumanlan: 20:59

Yeah, go ahead Alexandra.

Alexandra Pope: 21:00

I think what Shani has said is very, very important. And what, when you're outside menopause, you don't know what starts to open up as you start to step into that territory. And one of the things, there are two things that start to open up. One is two powers. We call them powers, which is the power of no and the power of sight, you will suddenly find yourself going, no, no, I can't do that. So, this boundary setting will just organically come in, and it will be discomforting for people around us. And so, I'm thinking of, you know, the partner or husband, you know who is or that they're not on board, they're not interested. And this is going to be a time of reckoning, because you are actually going to get to a point where this is non-negotiable. They have to step up. And you will find that if they don't, you are, you know, there's going to be changes. You are going to institute things. So, I'm wanting to, and I also want to acknowledge, again, I want to speak to the partner here for a moment too, which is that everybody changes when in the family, when the woman or person going through menopause, when they're going through menopause, everyone is affected. They what you're doing is you're changing the dance steps of your relationship with your children and with your partner, and it's just so important to start to have conversations about it. And if your partner's not willing to have a conversation, that's actually telling you something about the nature of your relationship. So, relationships do go through the washing machine as well menopause, and some relationships end, and some relationships if the two parties can understand what's happening, because the woman is going to want to pull away, and of course, the partner is going to feel abandoned, and that's perfectly normal to feel that. But I want the partner to know it's not that they're being rejected. Yes, they are being abandoned, actually, but you've the partner, you now have to start to do your inner work and step up to something more. How much have you been leaning on your wife, partner? How long you know you've you are going to have to grow up. Everybody's growing up. The children are going to have to grow up, because suddenly Mama is not going to be doing things in the same way. Now this does create a challenge if you have very young children, and we do not have simple answers for that, because this is the nature of how life is at the moment, some people are having children very late, and really it's those people who, I mean, you're, in a sense, inventing the wheel at the moment. You know, if you've got very young children, you're having to do, sort of find your own way. But what I will say is

Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer: 24:00

The only thing I can actually say to those people is you just need to lower your standards. Actually, yes, young children doing menopause is a different kind of mothering, and you just really need to lower your standards. I think that's a big, big key. You can't,

Alexandra Pope: 24:16

I think that's a big, big key. You can't, you can't do it like you would in your 20s or 30s. Yeah.

Jen Lumanlan: 24:23

Yeah, yeah, thank you. I think those, those pieces together, kind of get to where I was, where I was hoping to go with it. And yeah, I think the overarching idea is not everybody is going to love the changes that this brings to to the family, right? Yeah. Meant that one person has been doing a lot of supporting, and another parent has been supported a lot, it may be hard to transition out of that model. So, so thank you for for getting us there. And so, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about the symptoms, the not symptoms. So, so we, we talked with Dr. Newson about the symptoms that can I mean, I'm just going to put them inverted commas for you. Yeah. That can indicate that we're in perimenopause, and those can be like super far reaching, like your eyes, places I would never have thought of, because estrogen is important in so many systems all over the body, not just in our ovaries. And I know that you don't see these symptoms in quite the same way as in the medical model. So, I'm wondering, can you kind of tell us what symptoms you see are indicative that we're entering this phase.

Alexandra Pope: 25:24

Yeah, so in our work, we're not talking about how to deal with all the sort of classic physical symptoms that people speak about. However, in working in this organic way, understanding and respecting what menopause is asking of us, eases stress in our system. And stress is at the bottom of all the classic menopause physical symptoms of menopause. I mean, truly it's you've got to start with dealing with that and reduce stress. Sorry,

Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer: 25:56

Sorry to jump in there. Alexandra, so our understanding of it, Jen, is that with the hormonal shifts that happen, it's not inevitable that you will experience all these physical symptoms, but actually that the symptoms people are experiencing are the fallout of us not having lived cyclical lives, in other words, not having practiced cycle awareness and not understanding the ebb and flow of our body and our nature, and when you're coming into this next part of life, which is more an ebb and a withdrawal, unless you know how to honor that and respect that, you're actually creating more stress in your system, the overriding of the need to slow down and the need to retreat and do less, etc, is what we believe is at the heart of many, many of these symptoms. So that's what Alexander is saying. The kind of stress from going against one's cyclical inclination is really what that's about. And it's slightly more complicated than that in the sense that underlying health conditions that we've been sort of getting away with or being able to ignore in our 20s and 30s start to surface in our in the autumn of our menstruating years, in our 40s and in the menopause transition, because our resilience lowers and and therefore the things that are kind of lying dormant, you could say, or that have been managed, start to amplify. So that's also a lot of what's happening, which is why, like, self-care in your 20s and 30s is so important and really makes a difference. You're not kind of paying the price in your 40s, or we sometimes talk about you get, you get the report card, you know, in your 40s for the life you've lived thus far. It's sort of like everything you got away with doing in your 20s, or those late nights of parties and whatnot. You're kind of getting the report card now. So that's sort of a bit of how we understand what's going on. Yeah, sorry. Go on, Alexandra,

Alexandra Pope: 28:06

That's really good, Sjanie. You know, basically our hormonal system is a stress sensitive system, so we are getting feedback all the time on, you know, our overall health and well-being, how we're doing. So, you know, what are the signs, if you like, of that, you know menopause is, you know, coming is encroaching on you, on your life. Well, I'm going to say one thing that happens in your 40s is you're probably going to notice that you're more the energies that you associate with the pre menstruum of the cycle where you just feel more, possibly impatient, impatient. I was trying to not think of negative words, but you know it's tolerant more boundary. You know you can't take bullshit anymore. You know you just are not finessing you’re just blunt, or you're more direct. And yes, if you're getting more irritable and if you're becoming more reactive, you know these, these energies can predominate more, and that really reflects what Shani was saying about not being able to tolerate stress in the same way and pushing your you can't push your body in the same way. So, if you're noticing those, those energies increasing and and you're starting to feel the other thing that's going to start to come in is this feeling of the things that were important to you suddenly don't seem so important, like even you know your beloved children that you love. You're just sitting there looking at them thinking, geez, I'd love you to leave home now, you know never mean that you're only eight years old. Really, I'm done. I'm done. It's really extraordinary, and it may be slightly shocking, and you are not a bad person for. Thinking this and your partner, you know, it's essentially good. You know, there's always wear and tear. It's good. It's like you just don't want them asking stuff of you. You don't want another person to come and say, Where's my you know, blah, blah, blah, which you know when you're in the pre medicine will probably really get you, but now you're really it's this tolerance levels that are dropping, and you're feeling like you're retreating from the people around you. It's like you just want time and space for yourself. And there's also a feeling of wanting to just let go of things. Suddenly, it's extraordinary how this happens. And in fact, it comes to a kind of crescendo that we call the burn the house moment where honestly, you feel you could just walk out the door without a backward look, with nothing, not actually. You leave your mobile behind. You are so uninterested in everything, and you do not want another responsibility. This is real pinnacle moment. This is such a when that really hits that moment. I mean, I think you can say you are entering the great initiation of menopause, which requires time and space for yourself. And another very interesting feature of this transition phase signal or sign, Jen, is I talked about, you know, you sort of separating from the world, and it will be like there's a screen between you and the world, or like you're I always think of it like being underwater and you're looking up at the surface and the world is going by, but you're just below the surface. Oh, by the way, you look entirely normal, and you are actually out in the world performing the functions you have to perform, but you feel like there's some sort of gap between you and the world. It's fascinating this and you know, you will probably suddenly find yourself going, there's this conversation that I've heard a number of people say, which is that they, you know, they turn to their families, and they go, things are going to be different. Now the words will come out of your mouth, so you're going to, there'll be a phase of, I just remember it very clearly, of culling. I remember I just wanted to cull my books. Cull my books. I know one woman who just wanted a threat. She looked at her wardrobe, she went, Jesus, this is so not me. This is all going and she wasn't money and she wasn't cashed up, but she went round charity shops and she found all, you know, she found her new wardrobe. Yeah, it's this real sense of surrendering stuff and something suddenly becoming utterly non-negotiable. And yeah, like a loss of meaning, a loss of energy, a loss of agency and drive.

Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer: 33:06

And actually, on that note, I wanted to mention the word specifically a feeling of tiredness, because often, I mean, that's considered a symptom. But actually, there's nothing wrong with feeling tired. I mean, you ought to feel tired in menopause because you've lived a long life, and it's time now to rest. You know, you're in a bigger cycle. It's the end of your menstruating years. It's like the end of the day. You feel tired because you're preparing to cocoon. You're preparing to go under. So, tiredness is one of the signs as well. And often people in menopause just say, oh, I just want to sleep all the time. I know anything's like, what's wrong with me? There's nothing wrong with you. Just need to rest. It's just, it's, you just need a lot of rest when you're in menopause.

Jen Lumanlan: 33:54

Yeah, yeah. And I think that that takes us kind of really neatly into the idea of hormones, which I know you have quite a different stance on than kind of the medical model, because I so I really want to get into this, because I think it's the implications of it are incredibly profound. So, so starting with hormones, right? Dr Newson says basically everybody who menstruate should be taking hormones as they approach menopause, even if you're not having any symptoms, symptoms as defined by the medical model, because our bodies were not designed to function for so many decades on the back end of menopause without these hormones, and so we should take them to prevent those health challenges from coming up in those decades. And so I checked the index of wise power your book, and you don't mention the term hormone replacement therapy or anything else resembling hormone replacement therapy. So, acknowledging that you are not medical doctors, I'm wondering, can you help us understand how you approach hormones and taking hormones?

Sjani Hugo Wurlitzer: 34:55

So, I might start by answering this, just by talking about the cycle. And, yeah, I'm not a specialist in hormones, but I think a big part of the complexity that's come in is that not many people have experienced normal, healthy menstrual cycles through their adult life, and actually having a healthy cycle without hormonal contraception helps to create good health. Amongst other things, you know, it's talked about as the fifth vital sign. And caring for your menstrual cycle helps you to really profoundly care for your health, both in your menstruating years and beyond. So, I think that's a really important note to make, because many people are on hormonal contraception. I myself was, and there's a cost to that as well, which is also playing into a lot of the kind of Fallout that's happening in the latter years of cycling and during menopause. So, I just wanted to acknowledge that, you know, the more you ovulate, the better for your health. You know it's good for your bone density, and you know your immune system and so on. It's like good to ovulate and have as many ovulations in your life as you can. So yeah, Alexandra.

Alexandra Pope: 36:16

Such an important point that you've made there. Sjanie, you know, I've been pondering this question, Jen and I get asked a lot about what I think about HRT. And frankly, I really just want to say to people what I think about HRT is none of your business. You know. Your business is what you feel and know a need for yourself. It's your business too I cannot speak to that for you, you are the one living inside your body, in your life, with all that's going on. What I want for you is that you have all the information to support you, to live you know in a way that feels deeply satisfying, and where you know to feel well. And I saw you know, so Shani and I, we've created this huge body of work around the menstrual cycle of menopause as a resource for people to find what's right for them, what's you know, and what they're up for. Now, I am not a drug person. I do not take drugs, and yet I profoundly give thanks for their presence, you know, for the emergency situations and but I will do my darndest never to be in a place where, you know, it's an emergency. And I did experience emergency two years ago when I had sepsis and ended up in hospital. And did, I didn't argue with the antibiotics, even though I hadn't had them before 40 years, you know, so we give thanks for them, but I don't think, and this is my personal opinion, and you know, and I am not, it's my personal opinion. I don't believe hormone replacement therapy is a replacement for self-care, which I fear is what will happen. So if you feel the need to take HRT, you know that's your decision and choice, but know that you still have to eat a good diet. You still, you can't ignore tiredness. You know, if you are stressed that is impacting your health, you still, you know, I keep thinking, you know, you know, we have so much good research today on the importance of caring for our circadian rhythm. There's no replacement for a good night's sleep, it turns out, and we all know how shitty we feel that we don't sleep well, you know, you still have to rest. You can't just push, push, push your body and expect it to keep going. And my fear is that taking the HRT will put people a little bit in that mindset and not respect the organic rhythm of the fact that we live in a body with very real needs. It is not a machine that you can do top up a little bit of this and a touch of oil and, you know, and then you're off. I mean, machines wear down too, by the way, so I suppose I don't have, it's what it's a world view. I held a different world view to Dr Newson, and at my world views, I don't feel in myself that my body is that there's a design flaw in my body.

Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer: 39:49

That's the thing that concerns me, is that it's perpetuating this idea that there's a design flaw in our body and that there's something wrong with what's happening in. In this hormonal shift and this transition, and that's really what we hold very differently, is actually there's nothing wrong here if you are able to respect and honor it and care for it. Sure, there are extreme cases where people are desperate, and they need remedy. But for the majority of us. This is not a you know, this is not design flaw at all. And I think the other thing that concerns me is hormone replacement therapy being used as a means for us to keep on going as we always have to not change, to remain the same, to keep keep operating by the same faculties we used to have, and this is a very hard thing for many people to accept. I think this is part of the humbling of menopause, is that you do change, and that the capacities and faculties that you have in your earlier years, the powers you have in your early years are different to the powers you have through menopause and post menopause, and those powers are less respected and honored. So, to give you an example, in our 20s and 30s, we generally have more energy, and that is considered a good thing by most people, and hormonal replacement therapy, one of the kind of selling points is, you know, you won't be tired anymore. You'll have energy. Well, actually, what's true, if we trust it, is that in menopause and post menopause, you do have less energy. But what happens when you have less energy is it awakens these other faculties in you. You have more sensitivity. You have more intuitive knowing. When you've got a lot of energy, your mind is really five steps ahead. You're much control mode.

Alexandra Pope: 41:52

I just want to go yes, yes, yes, Sjani.

Sjani Hugo Wurlitzer: 41:56

You're much more in control mode. You can kind of manage and commando everything you know. In menopause and post menopause, you lose that power to, like, control and manage everything, but actually now, with less energy, with more intuition, etc, you are much more responsive. You are living much more in connection with life. There's a whole different kind of capacity and power that awakens in us, and the world doesn't like hugely celebrate that, but all of us listening know that that's actually what's missing in the world. We've got enough like control power happening in the world. What we don't have is relational power. What we don't have is like heart centeredness and like deep care and respect and reverence and these kinds of things. And that's what we we gain when we're in menopause and post menopause. So they're like, hormone replacement therapy is sort of a way of just trying to help us not to change, which I think is a huge tragedy for our society. You know? Yeah

43:00

Beautiful!

Alexandra Pope: 43:01

Honey. I just, I just want to go, excuse me. Sorry everybody, what you said, and I just want to add something, which is that it's so interesting, this thing of getting older, you see, if you don't, menopause, sets you up for the shifts into older age, and it actually prepares you for death. Ultimately, you're really I am so resourced by my experience of menopause to meet the fact that I am getting older, and we're all getting older and older, but I'm really feeling it now more, you know, because I'm 70, in my 70s, early 70s, and when there's more limitation, it's so fascinating this, when you feel more limitation like less energy, it drops you into you have to find another kind of authority and power, and that I'm going to give it the word wisdom, actually, I'm going to anoint myself with it. I think I've got a touch of that guy on that. But there's, I don't know what it is, but there's, you know, it's like, you don't argue with a post menopause woman, and especially, I mean, I'm talking about these who have really done their inner work. And there's a kind of clear seeing, there's a clear knowing. And there are heart, your heart is blown open. Because when you don't have energy, you know, when you've got energy, not only are you just all mind, but your heart gets hardened, I think, and it you just get more and more tenderized as you get older and you you feel more so there's an enormous kind of compassion that comes for everything, and tolerance, even as you can also get quite intolerant. It's quite an interesting line that's worth walking this, actually. But the point I the thing I'm really pointing to here, and I feel. So fiercely is that there is an extraordinary kind of authority that comes through, you know, and you know what's in and what's out for you, what you're good at and what you're not good at, and in that knowing of what you're really good at, you have a brilliance. You have a real brilliance. You're not and every person anymore, you've got this deep plugging into something, and it's I can't I don't even have language to say this. I feel rather fierce about it. Actually, Sjanie has inspired me. What she said. It almost isn't languaging for this kind of power, but it is so uncompromising in holding to something quite big. It's really, and this makes me cry a little. It's so about serving life and what's required to step up to that Jen and what? Yeah, oh, it's a huge conversation.

Jen Lumanlan: 45:59

Yeah, it really isn't so different from the well, let's just take hormones so that you can get back out and keep doing the things that you've been doing, and not rest and just keep, keep up with the strength and the, you know, the I was also, as you were, kind of walking through it, imagining the sort of, you know, quote unquote masculine way of being in the world, and the quote, unquote feminine way of being in the world and how the masculine way is rewarded, right? And so of course, we want to keep doing that for as long as possible, because we get rewarded by society for doing that, and we are punished in a way, for turning inward, for caring for ourselves.

Alexandra Pope: 46:35

But if we can step into this post menopause power, we have real chutzpah for interrupting that medical that masculine power. I mean, truly, it is extraordinary. I want postmenopausal women and positions of power in the world because they interrupt that bullshit.

Jen Lumanlan: 47:01

Well, we might get one very soon. So, I want to kind of also look at our inner critic again. We talked about this last time when we were talking about our menstrual cycle. And the reason I focused on it there was because I think it was really unusual to see our inner critic as having any kind of redeeming value at all right? It seems like it's this voice that is just saying these bad things about us in our heads. And so, I'm wondering, Can you also tell us, kind of building on what we talked about last time, tell us the role that you see that the inner critic has, specifically during the menopausal period.

Alexandra Pope: 47:35

All right, so our inner critics can be utterly toxic and shame inducing, and that has to be met. And said no to very firmly and clearly, you know that it's just that is not good. And the critic when we can start to meet that toxic destruction of ourselves, the in the act of doing that the critic actually sort of reveals itself as the kind of what we talk about, the holy role of the critic, that it is, in a way, the great catalyst for the initiatory work that happens at menopause. So, in meeting that force, you know, in a way, capitulating to it is simply not an option anymore. In menopause, it this is the moment where you actually have the showdown with this figure. And that's the gift of this figure to you, because you actually finally have to go yes to who you are, warts and all, and I remember the process so very clearly. So, because the initial part of menopause, you're in a dying process, metaphorically speaking, your ego is going you're going through an ego death. And you know, I'm still a little bit attached by, but I also have a bigger perspective. Thank you, menopause, so I can drop it and walk away from it that's getting over yourself, but initially, when you're going through this ego death and what will happen is, you know, you're losing purchase on all the things that gave you meaning and gave made you a somebody in the world. So that's all being stripped away. Oh, not good folks. Doesn't feel good, and you'll lose. Then you think, well, who am I? What am I? You know, confidence starting to go, and your will is going, and you are becoming more and more permeable. You're becoming wide open, and this is what's required in this initiation. You are now being paid, made permeable for something greater and bigger to come in. However, initially it just feels crap and well might feel crap, and you are facing your shadow side all the things that you had been not looking at. So, I suddenly saw myself, and I was like, Oh my God. I was shocked by how arrogant I was. So scared though that was, you're exposed to yourself, but you only see the dark side. You don't see or the negatives. Rather, you don't see the positives in yourself. And that's the critic at work. The critic is going, you know, who are you? What have you done with your life? You know, all the classic existential questions, you know, what have you achieved? You've got nothing to show for it. And the end is nigh, because the menopause, you know, feels like the end. And culturally, that's you get, you get the message. And so, it's like tearing strips off you. And this is where you so need some kind of context, you know, holding like which is what we give in our book. And you need allies around you, reminding you this you are going into the heart of the heart of the initiation. Now it's, you know, it's the it's the fire in which you're going to be forged. And you need, that's why the dignity is so important, Jen, to feel a dignity when you go in, because you are going to be tested. This is the test, and no one else can tell you, no, no, you, you're, you're great. You've done this, you've done that. Actually they can, and it helps a little bit, but ultimately it doesn't, it's, it's, it's not enough. You have got to finally kind of face yourself and go, okay, so I really did cop that one up. Yeah. Now I was not very good at that, but, well, I wait, you know, hang on a minute. Yeah. And you, you're starting to sift through things and but remember, the veils are being pulled from your eyes, and you're actually as you know, you're seeing the negatives in yourself, but you're going to start to suddenly see who you are, and this is what's going to help you. You have to claim yourself. You have to meet that critical force and say, no, you're not going to kill me off. I'm doing this very literally, but there is almost a literal element like this, and that's the gift of the critic to you, because it's asking you to step up and go, you know what? This is, who I am, and I'm not going to freaking try to be that person anymore. And yeah, I made a cock up of that in my life. But who doesn't make a mess of things that does not make me a bad person. It just means that I wasn't very good at that, and what you're doing is just really starting to claim who you are. And in that recognition, I tell you, the lights go on and you go, I know what I'm made for. I know what I should be doing. Honestly, it's good, but I'm not pretending that critic stuff is easy, but it is giving you an incredible gift. If you can meet it and you are resourced, if you're not resourced, it's not, it's, it's, it will feel impossible, and probably is.

Jen Lumanlan: 52:55

Sjanie, do you want to add anything to that?

Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer: 52:57

Just to say that really the key word there is self-acceptance. Because, you know, for most of our lives, our inner critic is talking to us, but we're busy with life, and it becomes so unconscious we're not even noticing it. But with all that stripping back at menopause and the fact that we're needing slowed down, suddenly we've got less distraction, and we're very confronted by that voice that is so self-diminishing and self damning. So, it's an awakening that happens. You suddenly realize how you're talking to yourself and face all of that. So, it's a huge expansion and awareness in and of itself. And that process Alexandra described is very beautiful, because what's happening is when you start to really hear what you're saying to yourself, and you actually stand up for yourself in response to that, what you're doing is this deep work of self-acceptance, which I think that's what you've got post menopause. Yeah, you're rested in yourself. You're like, this is who I am. These are my warts. These are my vulnerabilities, and I'm okay. And I think that's why post menopause women are so dangerous, is because, like, you can't, you can't shame them, you can't, like, you know, because they're like, Yep, I'm bad at that, and that's just unhuman.

Jen Lumanlan: 54:21

Beautiful and so as we wrap up, I'm wondering just one central idea that you want to maybe one for each of you, that you want listeners who are approaching this transition to take. I think the thing I'm taking is rest. But I know that's high on your list, but I'm wondering, what do you would you really hope that people would take out of this conversation?

Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer: 54:40

I will say rest, yeah, that that would be it for me. And the reason I'm holding to that one is because I know for myself when I think about rest administration, which is where we get to practice this retreat every month, it's hard to do like I feel like I and we all need a lot of permission, a lot of support, a lot of encouragement to do it. So I want to underline it and say you have full permission. This is the thing your mind, heart, body, soul, need more than anything, for a quite a while, is rest.

Alexandra Pope: 55:19

And as a part of that responsibility free time just to be with yourself in a nothing space. It can be half an hour, folks, half an hour where you down tools, you shut your phone off, and you are there for no one, nobody, nothing, just to be with yourself. And the more you can get of that, the more menopause you will hear what menopause is asking of you.

Jen Lumanlan: 55:52

Fantastic. Can you tell us and listeners where they can find more information on the work that you do?

Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer: 55:59

Yes, so our website is redschool.net so that's where you'll find just about everything. And we're also on social media. Instagram at red.school is a good place to find us. And for menopause, specifically, if you go to redschool.net/menopause, you'll find out about our we have free events on menopause, one on the 23rd of October, and then we've also got a six week online menopause course where we take people through the five phases and stages of the menopause initiation and give like practical tools and skills, inner skills that people can draw on to support themselves through each stage of this initiation.

Jen Lumanlan: 56:43

Awesome and so we will put all of those links and also links to your book wise power at your parentingmojo.com./wisepower. Thank you so much to both of you for your time. It was so awesome to see you again.

Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer: 56:56

Yeah, really good. I'm so glad we could have a part two of this. I know.

Alexandra Pope: 57:02

Thank you so much, Jen pleasure.

Adrian: 57:07

If you'd like Jen to address the challenge you're having in parenting, just email your one-minute video or audio clip to support at your parentingmojo.com. And listen out for your episode soon.