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Honest Talk About Relationships, Heartbreak And Dating - Rob McPhillips EPISODE 28, 3rd November 2020
Wired For Dating: A Summary of Stan Tatkin's Book
00:00:00 01:43:01

Wired For Dating: A Summary of Stan Tatkin's Book

In this episode we discussed Stan Tatkin's book Wired For Dating and how that could help us in dating.



So the topic tonight is we're going to talk about STEM Takins award for dating. And so I can really talks about neuro biology and. Attachment theory, and so really, it's about. His work is really about, he says to when you're in a relationship, is 10 nervous systems interacting with each other, which is the reason why people can end up arguing over silly things, which is really what they're arguing about. So in the breakout rooms we were discussing.


What happened in your relationships or relationships that you think? And just before we we open up the discussion or just a couple of people say, just so everyone knows what's going on. So what we do here is we have a chat here in the main room. And the the chat here is recorded when you go into the room is private and then the recording you can catch. So if you've missed any time, you can listen in. What I'm looking for is an example of maybe and oftentimes we can't really explain why we get into these arguments.


But just looking for some real life examples so that we can we can use them to illustrate the principles and bring some clarity to them. Does anyone have anything that they were talking about in the. In the breakout rooms that. They could share. So if you want to I me to come you. Yes, I was talking with Sasha, so she left.


So she told the people I mean, in arguments in relationship, when the argument happens, the couple argues like a child is.


So the reason is because of lack of communication and I mean too much expectation.


So that's her answer. But my answer was that, I mean, since they love each other and they know each other so much, so they're connected to each other and they also called themselves like baby or things like that. So they're going to love each other. They act like a baby. Similarly, when they come correct, like when they are caught, they also act like baby.


And if they would have argued without relationship, I mean, they're not familiar with each other or maybe they are colleagues, they might not have like argued like childish childishly. And the other reason is that when they argue they know so much detail about themselves, like they used small details, like somebody says that your I mean, snoring is not good enough. I mean, your dress up is not good. And so this kind of small little things are used in arguments to hurt each other.


So this kind of small little things, when I brought in these kind of arguments, these are also components of babies like childish like arguments. So this is my I mean, thought about why they I mean, when they argue they act like childish. Well, they may not be childish. Well, I'm not saying it's not, but it might be that these things have annoyed them for a long time, like snoring, for example, but they just haven't mentioned it before because everything was fine and dandy and, you know, and there was no underlying problem.


So he didn't mention it. They just thought it. And then when something else is annoying them, then I'll bring it up. So it's actually just simmering under the surface.


So while they're arguing about the snoring, but it's not really about snoring.


Well, yeah. Yeah, probably not. No, they've brought it up. Yeah. So there's actually underlying issues on other issues.


You know, I think that's just a lack of being able to communicate around those things. So say like someone's got an issue with snoring or I think most of it is borne out of not expressing what you want clearly, and then not finding a sort of like mutual resolution to it looks like a win win situation or.


I think that's probably where it kind of yeah, and I think also because people aren't really clear on what they want. Only when they feel like they feel like I'm reading them what going on and just react. Yeah. But as you said before, it's sometimes a symptom of something that's an undercurrent. And so it's something that in good times you would probably tolerate, even though it is something that you wouldn't like. I have been through snoring and it drives me crazy because I wake up very irritable because I can't sleep.


And the response that I used to get is, what do you want me to do about it? So which says to me, you don't give you know a lot about me because you know that I need to sleep.


Therefore, that just escalates and escalates when if everything was lovey dovey and also very nice and stuff, you would try to find a way to de-escalate the tension. And, you know, what's that? What's happening. But because there is something else that is driving you bonkers or you're angry about that causes the explosion.


Well, for me, it causes me to just. I lash out with a pillow and a knife. No, I am I don't need any tools. I'm just very, very honest and very caustic. And so my husband will tell you, when you speak sharply, you cut like a knife. I'm sorry. It's nothing to boast about, but it's the truth. That's what he said.


Yeah, but not in that situation. His response basically meant he doesn't care. It's a lack of respect for you. Exactly. He's not doing anything about it. He's not trying to solve the problem.


So why does he feel like that? Because presumably, like five, 10 years earlier, he didn't. So why is he ended up like that?


I suppose it's a power play. It was a power play. Power play, OK? Did you have two bedrooms in the house, you could just or just left yourself maybe, I don't know, just no, no. He lives in Jamaica and I live in the UK.


And you can hear him when he when we are together in London.


But I believe that I mean I mean, living in two separate rooms will not solve the problem.


It will. I mean, make the problem deeper because you. I mean, living together, maybe they could I mean, make some kind of point. But if they're separate and they're lives, I mean, living in two separate, you can make the situation worse. There is quite a number of people that they sleep in separate bedrooms.


Yes, it depends on based on their preferences. But for me, I believe there may be whatever problems is happening. The problem is happening between these two people. So if they're working together, maybe try to find some common ground, then it will escalate the situation by living separately. Maybe that helped them come down at some point, but constantly living separately will make the situation worse.


This is not a start in the end, though, separate. But what I don't know is not necessarily because, like I, I know my girlfriend, we both sleep much better when we're on our own because it is hard, you know, like if you want to sleep early one week later and and just if you've been used to being on your own, you sleep better. So I don't know. But a lot of couples like if someone is snoring all the time and I can't change that.


My solutions, yeah, there are I don't know, but I do know that there was quite a sizeable number of people that do things separately. I suppose I think is unique, I think. I don't think that's necessarily. The end of a relationship or the start of the end of the relationship, it can just be a way then they they work out. As Colum pointed out, though, it's about the response that you get when you mention something to your partner.


It doesn't have to be about snow or it's whether they take it on board and even if they're not very active in terms of changing it. But at least they respond to you as though they're willing to do something about it to to reduce your impact that is happening on you. You know that. Yes. This is you're not happy about this and with good reason they will try to meet you halfway. It might not work because like, for example, snoring is very hard to resolve.


But if you're trying to make an effort. Then I would feel as though, OK, fine, you are trying to help the situation, but if you are not, then it says data for you.


Just as a show of hands, how many people and if you can resolve it, if the reactions down the volunteers, a show of hands, how many people have heard of attachment theory?


OK, and what was a question of it's such a mystery and does anyone know what attachment style they have that without just if you read it?


I think, Michael, I think I go through different attachments. I think sometimes I'm sure sometimes what's the other one, depending on what's the other one where you don't want? Well, for the fourth one's not very common, though, is it?


No, actually, I don't have the percentages and I. Yes. Is that the one are you talking about anchor and Wave and whatever? Yeah, although it's not secure, anxious, anxious, avoidant and ambivalent, fearful. I think I'm very avoidant sometimes, all the times I'm anxious and sometimes and completely secure, OK, depending on on.


Yeah, I mean we go through stages I think.


Yeah. How we feel like if you're with family, well, assuming it's a good family, then you're probably going to feel more secure than if you were in a situation you like your new workplace, you don't really know anyone. You're probably going to be the context is going to determine some of that. So roughly. OK, so we'll get into attachment actually a little bit. But first of all, I just want to give some background for anyone.


Oh, yeah. The other thing was how many people have read the book or listen to the TED talk. So one, two, three. To talk. Yes, there was a TED talk or attachment theory. Now it was where we stand. Stand by. Anyway, I'm going to I'm going to run through that. So I'm just going to meet everyone now. There's no background noise. And then. We'll discuss in a minute. OK, so really.


Being in a relationship can become frightening because suddenly. Your future and your autonomy is caught up with someone else's. And so it means that you've lost what is the feeling of loss that a sense of identity when you're single, you can just make a decision and can do whatever you want to do. And when you're in a couple, you then there's someone you have to check against. And especially if you're raising children, then. It's not just how you parent them mean, it's also how your spouse, partner's parents and often you might have different styles.


And so you have this sort of. You don't have that freedom, so. Really, when we're born, we're born into. Into a context, we're born into a family and this someone who's looking after us. And. That. That introduction to the world. Is what's going to slum everything you see of the world from there on? It doesn't mean that you're condemned to to to that style, but it means that's the style that you that you have.


And different parents obviously vary in how well they are. Able to look after you, how much space, how much stress they have, whether they have postnatal depression, whatever the context of their relationship or and how the living circumstances and all of those. Factors determine how you grow up. So this is so attachment theory really is based in your earliest experiences of the world. So when we're born, we're completely helpless and we're dependent on. Of caregiver, which is usually definitely when attachment theory came out, was mostly the mom, but whoever is mainly looking after the child.


So as a baby, we both completely helpless. We there's nothing that we can do for ourselves and we can't even ask. And so some parents are naturally maternal, paternal, and they'll respond and they'll be able to work out the latest nappy, change the food in comfort. And now so the only way that the baby can ask for help is by crying, so. What attachment theory is really about is how responsive that parent is, determines the trust that the baby has in that person and then that trust in that person shapes how they see the world.


So a person that has a secure, responsive, caring parent looking after it tends to trust other people more. So there's a story of six men and six women come across an 11. And one of them's got its trunk and one of its leg and one of them is a one of them's got its main body and one of them's going to tell and whatever other partners. So then you've got. Like six different people that have six entirely different interpretations of what an elephant is, and they describe it to each other and they they can't like, you know, your life because it's not like that.


So their experience, because they can't see the whole they've only just they can kind of feel around apar. They have different experiences in the same way. We all have different experiences in the way they grow up. And this is attachment theory in terms of how responsive main caregivers. But it's also about a culture. It's also about our family. It's about our religion. And all those factors shape how we first see the world and then everything that we see after that.


Is based on the initial initial view of the world. So. So we're going to look at numbers, about 50 percent of people are securely attached, 20 percent are anxiously attached. Twenty five percent are avoidant and five percent are fearful. And so. So what happens when someone has a really responsive, caring mum or dad? They then feel like they're going to trust them and then they're going to trust other people, so. So when I first did research on how they discovered this was they noticed that children were about to have free would some would really cry when they separated from their mom and some would.


Not be bothered and some would sort of reject them when they come back. And that's really where Mary Ainsworth was really how they did the test to test the attachments on. So. I think he understands how can and Johnson argue that. Our relationships. Are essentially essentially trying to recapture that primary relationship, so. As as humans, we are inherently social, so we need people. But it's overwhelming to go out on the tube and to connect with everyone.


So we need. At least one main person that we feel safe and connected to and we have that attachment. And when we have that, we are able to take risks and the rest of the world, because we will always have that place to go back to. So Stone's had a couple of bubble economies, talk of it as a kicking, but it's really about having that safe place. And. It's if you've never had a template for a great relationship where you felt really safe and secure, then it's difficult in a relationship because you're expecting other people.


So if you're anxious, you're going to expect. So people who are anxiously attached is. Often because sometimes it may be like the parents might have had an acrimonious relationship and one might abuse the child as their source of love, and they may have have used that or they might have expected some behavior before they would love them. Like if you're if you're a good girl, you're a good boy. You get love. If you're if you've achieved this, you get love.


And so that. Becomes a template for how we see relationships. Does that make sense? I mean, if you have any questions or comments. It's absolutely it makes sense. OK, and I understand the first one, which is. But I mean, I'm still Googling whatever you're saying, so are you talking about attachment theory or is it attachment styles or types?


I just I don't like attachment theory. Is the idea that we need to first attach to one person, you know, like mom, dad, caregiver and that attachment. Determines how trusting we are or how anxious we are in light of relationships. OK, so the attachment style comes from how you were treated, if they looked after you leads, you would trust them and so you would generally trust other people. If you never got your needs met, then you may even be avoidant where you just ambivalently just have to look after myself.


And I'm self-sufficient and I can't trust anyone else. And so that tends to push people away. Or you can be anxious, which is like someone who never felt good enough, felt that they had to do something in order to be loved. And so they're like, OK, what what do you need? What can I do for you? So those are the people that I seen as very needy. OK. OK, so. So what's next?


So. If a romantic relationship is how we bond to one person. As an adult. What we're really doing is kind of recreating the initial parent child relationship. But this time. It's as equals and but they're the one person that we were attaching to and that's where we build. Our safe space and then build out from. So. OK, so there's some myths that stand out and said so somewhere, but it's for example, what are some of the myths that he.


That you have to be strong on your own. And he says that relationship means. She's correct, so that we have to be strong in line, we lead them out. Sasha? I here to confirm them. OK, I mean, the MFS I remember one of them was that you have to be completely, completely self completely secure, completely happy before you can be in a relationship. Yeah, you said that to me, which I thought this was quite insightful.


Well, this is the first experience I had of this sort of stuff. And so the mix is all we need is a big move because you can have all of the love. And if those things are going wrong, it's not going to save it. You need all the things.


You have to love yourself before you can love someone else on the sort of like arguments for why he believes these images, you have to learn to take care of yourself before you can start. And you shouldn't rely on only one person for your well-being. I need to find my soul mate. Day in is for the young. I'm too old.


Nothing. That was a. OK. All right, so. And so basically, let's stop there and let's talk about attachment. And this is really the key to why people. Get into arguments like childish arguments and sometimes, for example, people often. And I say more women than women, but it's probably true with both. But you might get into a relationship and be in a relationship for three, four, five, six months and think it's going really well, and then suddenly they just like this isn't working out and.


Relationship without really knowing why. And sometimes that can be because you're getting closer, because they care. You've treated there and they're more avoidant. The avoidance attachment style will push people away because it gets too scared.


Oh, sorry, are you saying it's more avoidant styles, more common in men than it is in women? And that's why it happens more often now?


Probably not. Probably. But I tend to see women selling it more. But then maybe that's. That women will probably get a different excuse, but it tends to be probably more stereotype that men, men don't like to commit. So that's probably what I'm saying is probably if I really think about it and really think about reasons, probably I tend to see it more clearly. So, yeah, avoidant is. So when you get into a relationship, what you're doing is you expose yourself, you're being vulnerable.


It's it's like Remi said, you know, everything that can hurt you. But it's not just that fear, it's also the fear of I'm giving up my autonomy, I'm trusting this person and all my experience relationships tell me that I can't trust someone so anxious, people who really want to bond, but they'll be anxious and they'll feel like they need to perform in order to. Be good enough to be loved. Secure people are secure and they they didn't love, so they expect to be loved and avoidant people.


Are much more I want to be on. You know, I don't need other people, so they'll sort of bond and then they'll push people away. And so that can be one of the reasons why people some people seem upset when everything seems to be going on and then the person is is suddenly being left is like, what did I do wrong? What's wrong with me? And sometimes it's nothing to do with you. It's just it triggers fear.


And then. So. Where are we? Rob, I have a question. Yes, is it possible for you to change your attachment style over time? And does anyone here maybe in the group has an example or maybe you have an example where? You were very avoidant or fearful and you started working towards being more secure and it actually worked over time, or is it just something that you are an. Yes, yes, I mean, I can talk about that, and that's one of the myths, is you need to be whole and secure yourself.


And he says and other people have said as well is that basically people in the field of neurobiology will say relationships have to be healed in relationship. So Dr. Mario Martinez is very good on that and he says is basically free call. Free Corwin's, which is shame, betrayal and abandonment and shame has to be. Shame is held in a relationship where they where someone feels. The trial is held where there is loyalty and abandonment. And I want to get out of that and then and then there's a field of healing for abandonment.


So, yes, the problem is that most people are unaware of what attachment style now. They're not really aware of why they're arguing, which is why this is so important to know about because. Even yourself or you can recognize now the people that. Beneath the surface of what's going on. Because the surface argument is about it's like Saddam Hussein is about to face stories about snoring or something, but often it's really about. I can't trust you enough to tell you what I really feel.


I can't trust you to tell me my face. So I'm going to argue about this and hope that you. Pick up on it. Right. Does that make sense? Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, yes, it's really it's really about being you can become secure in a relationship.


So if you are anxious or avoid and then have a bad relationship, you kind of learn to be cool and secure in that relationship because otherwise, really, you condemn 50 percent of the population and can't have a relationship.


And I know this attached is another, the same, and basically they say avoiding. Basically, the book says avoid avoidance, but it can be hard today, though, especially this, especially for anxious people.


I mean, it's not like avoid avoidance or unless they're aware of it to some extent themselves are on their own. So feeling it's very hard to avoid avoidance.


Yeah, because, yeah, you can only really do something with someone that wants to do you like you can only work with someone who's willing to work and they by their nature typically aren't. And especially anxious and avoid is a bad pairing because anxious people want to do everything to please the person and avoidance of less fuss. So it's very hard for an anxious and an avoider to work together. Oh, so so if if if someone's let's say I'm anxious or got an anxious attachment style, how do they work at it or how do they know that that's that's the attachment style?


Because I don't know. I mean, I guess knowledge is the key factor here. You have to know to be aware, to work on it. But I don't know if I'm asking whatever is in my head correctly is just if if your way of attaching to people is to avoid people, that to me is not really attachment is more like I'm self sufficient. So. Everybody should stay away, so I guess you don't really want to be attached.


That actually form a relationship. OK, so typically avoidant people will be attracted, they sort of want to be in a relationship, but then when it gets close, they get scared and by their nature, they push away.


So. That that's the instinctive the instinctive fear and feeling, but when you're aware of something, then you can recognize it and you can override it. So it's it's really sad how how you heal really is by being aware and you have to you have to have the right relationship with someone you trust who is worthy of your trust, who will support you and then you. You have to spend time watching yourself as well, I think. Yeah, we will, we will as we go further in.


Will. Talk more about what he wants, then taxes, and then we can go from there, but yeah, it's really been aware of it and sharing how you feel because the big problem in the fight is. You'll find about cheapies because nobody's saying what they really feeling. And there are some good examples in the book where he has a couple fights and then shows how it could be different. But Fenet said, we will get into that, but for now, I think it's worth pausing for a moment and thinking about.


And I think there's a spectrum I don't think it's just like 50 percent secure. I think there's a range and I think people can be different in different situations. There's a general disposition, but we're not always feeling secure. So if we go back into the breakout rooms and the discussion is to try and think about. In your relationships. What might have been the other person's style, what might be your style and how might those have led to? Rousse an argument, but if you want to score points an.


You mean I just I just wanted to say sorry, I was just going to type in the box. Well, I didn't realize I made it stand and not shift underneath I owed them.


But, yeah, I was just wanting to say on the on the point of I think one way to recognize anxiousness is if if you see any sign of somebody pulling away from that relationship, the secular person wouldn't feel threatened at that point. They'd see that as a natural fluctuation in the relationship, whereas an anxious person would become very anxious if they saw someone pulling away a little bit. I think that that's how you can determine at that point whether you secure, anxious, would you agree with that or if that's the way that I saw it anyway?


Yeah, so so an anxious person would be. If someone doesn't reply to protect in a couple of hours, why don't they know then they like me anymore and I don't talk to me and say things like that. So all of these dating is like a big thing of that, because you're you're messaging someone and someone doesn't messenger you back for two days. And that's why people like men will write these really shitty messages like you stuck up cow. Why did you and a lot that is anxious attachment, which is really about the nervous system and.


How? How that makes us feel and react so highly, so we're just about to go back into breakout rooms, so to to try and think about what might have been your attachment styles and what might have been your partner's attachment styles, and how might that, you know, like looking at that childhood, if you if you know what happened, how might that have? Affected relationships, and so if you want to talk past leave until personally, if you would rather talk more abstract and just generally about the concept and that's fine, whatever you feel comfortable with in your mind.


We got into a bit of a discussion of sort of technology and robots and how sort of a lot of you know, how everyone can trace your location as a way of building trust and the politics and not getting a message back in that meeting. They don't care if, if, if, if the politics are not messaging back straight away. And I think a lot of these sort of technologies are actually stopping genuine human connection and trust building. Because this is kind of like where you can give me proof, why should I trust you when I can have proof from you?


That's interesting on how the point not just from having a child and what I've noticed in a lot of films is that this sort of in a lot of the films and getting kids to love robots, so like a kids will die, for example, what, you would have left this chick behind and then this chips. Now he's dad in a robot and then he falls in love with the robot is like the father caring figure. So there's a lot here.


So if you believe that whatever you're saying about allowing Grovers, it's happening now currently in other countries, for example, Japan, I mean, they love Grovers nowadays because for them it is difficult to love each other.


I mean, government are giving money them to marriage. I mean, to marry each other. But they have so much upsets with their I mean, technological, I mean, blessing's or whatever. And that demand is too high. And it is also said that in some kind of statistics, it has been shown that almost all the young kids, at least in Japan, they have no sex, means sexual contact. Who I mean, we are already at the age of 37.


So in that case, I mean, the psychology is so different for them. They now are more accustomed to the robots. I mean, for example, like they're creating robots for men, for women, and they marry the robots, like the girlfriend of life. And they love the way they one to the robots because robots X are responds the way they like to be responded on the partners.


So that kind of response they're not getting from the real human. So that is what is happening in Japan. It is happening in real it's not no longer a movie at all. But the root cause of that, according to some, is an inability to be able to deal with real interactions and the withdrawal, especially the men, as you quite rightly say.


But Japan has had a few centuries of dealing with robots. It's relatively new to us. But traditionally they have had what would have been what would seem to us to be primitive forms of robots. But it's not a concept that's alien to them. So in terms of their culture, it is not something that they are looking at as something that is new and strange. But you are quite right. But it's a retreat from having to deal with issues and problems, a robot doll or an inflatable doll or the doll on their phone, the girlfriend, they can dress her how they feel like they put her wherever they take her for a weekend at a hotel, you know, and they go outside the scene and they have photographs and whatever they do with that object, it does not talk back.


It does not argue. It is not going to have a fight. It is.


So it's and that suits them. They have no problems. They what we have is human interaction with all these difficulties. They have removed that element. Yeah, can I just say it's it's definitely wait for an adult, but it's not so strange for children because I think, you know, we have teddy bears, we have security blankets that kids have. And it's it's the form of attachment. It's almost sort of semi replaces the parent a little bit.


But that's why we put the teddy bear sort of when you when you step out of the bed with. So they think that you're still there. But it's when it when you become an adult, then it becomes, I'm sorry, some serious issues.


But I mean, I have also seen a video on YouTube that a woman a video on YouTube.


It's about a woman. I mean, it's about a woman. She is she has good intentions. She has a good job and she has good career. And she's probably thirty eight or so, but she struggles to have a relationship and that relationship into marriage. So she made a budget to make a solo marriage.


So in the Solomons backpacker's it's kind of like maybe imposing house or something like that. So she hired somebody to dress up her the way she wants to be.


I mean, being I mean, look in her real marriage and that's I mean, the marriage she expected and she is celebrating her marriage by herself and that's what she called solo marriage. So it's happening.


Not a single I mean, it's not a real thing. It's happening like for a large number of people.


I think it's I think we are at the point where robots I mean, human biology is. Is mixing together and. This, I think, like 20, 30 years ago, it was all about aliens, close encounters of the third kind, E.T., the Star Wars, Star Trek, because we were working out how do we deal with aliens in Independence Day. And I think now was sort of coming into awareness. And what's coming up is. Is this issue of I what actually makes a human, because when you can have, you know, like if you look at the Paralympics now, there are people competing that never would have been able to you know, they would have been never able to move.


We're not far and probably we already have some, but. Where we we when human merges with machine. So. I think that that that plays out in films, plays out whatever, I mean, Fasal and. I think. I think just like you said in the chat. We won, like the dream is that we have a magic pill and we have this perfect person who does exactly what we want. But relationships are quite messy and. The bond in a relationship comes from working with the messiness, from not getting what you want, but what you want, be refined by the challenge that is there with the other person.


So. So I think. I think when when it becomes like a robot, that it's something he's going to please you without you having to do the work for it. And. I think we're reaching the point where artificial intelligence and robots are becoming. So intelligent. That they're actually developing empathy and they'll outdo us probably in empathy. So. The question think be something lacking, though, I think, you know, you were saying earlier on about, you know, the sort of downsides to being in a relationship versus being single, and that also comes with a lot of sides.


So, yeah, you can't make decisions and do what you want all the time because there's somebody else there. But you've also got somebody to help plan and be stronger and make decisions together on how to move forward. And I think there's a lot of benefits to what, you know, not being single as well as what the other is going to be, all the things that you've got to work out how to sort of maneuver your life, not with somebody else in mind as well.


But I think that, you know, that's not such a bad thing and it's something that human beings have robots for.


And that's what I was going to say as well, like them. So then if people just don't want to deal with this sort of human stuff and go into robots, they're going to find the human stuff lacking. And I think they're going to see this actually is an old one to be and they probably will be missed for the thing that's just not human.


Yeah, that's what I'm questioning when they say we're wired for love, we're literally wired to resonate with each of them is not going to have an over nervous systems or the humans, the electrical pulses from heartbeats and energy and.


Yeah, but nervous system that we have, that's obviously not going to be in the eye. So then that's not going to be sufficient for a relationship.


You know, I mean, sometimes I mean, I believe that people need some kind of relationship that doesn't require that kind of I mean, did that before asking like I mean, they just need somebody to be around and just like I mean, some people have bits of their spending life for a long period of time just having a dog or cat. So they're totally fine. So they just need some kind of human like a pet. So, I mean, partner cannot be afraid of where they like to be.


I mean, they like their partner to be. So that's why they choose they're choosing a robot to be another version of human form.


My pet, so I'm happy with their pets, would give you some sort of love and pets. Respond to you. For me, I think at the core of humans is threatened to be social and to have something to trigger your emotions and your senses. And just because you're not agreeing with people or you're not finding the so-called right person does not necessarily mean that replacing human relations with with robotics, stuff like that is is really the answer. Because if if someone chose to be single and then had a pet, they'll feed the pets, the pets that would have to take the pet out.


They would have to care for the pet. Whereas if it's a robot, you're not getting anything apart from a one sided sort of you're putting into this thing that doesn't even have a clue what you're putting into it. And I just feel like that is not really a relationship because a relationship is a two way thing. And so you've got to give and receive as well. But going back to what when we came back from the break rooms and about like people putting these guys on and things like notifications to get some sort of a response to say someone's read my message and then you're wondering, oh, yeah, we've read my message.


But why haven't they responded? Just not sure if that's a healthy way, because as much as these things are available with technology to have, you can also disable these things because if you constantly like picking your phone up every time you have a notification thing. Ring or anything, it will set you like into this sort of a panic, whatever. Always check in like I see people at work constantly, like flipping the phone to have a look notifications.


And I just don't think that's healthy. So just as these are options which are available, there's also the option to actually turn them off and be able to operate as. I mean, I'll put this in inverted commas, so normal so that you're not driving by technology, because I look at some of these reforms thinking that constantly on the phone and it's like every two seconds picking it up. It's just like picking of like, how are you able to concentrate and do your work and do anything?


And you go into meetings and people are meant to be present, and yet they're not present because they're constantly like picking up some because of a notification thing. So I think that's the option to actually switch those things off.


Not just to go back, though. I back to the whole issue of robots and their use once again in Japan as the main example, but also here and in the United States and in Canada, all the people who are alone, either because their partners have died, their children are far away.


They live in remote areas. Robot toys have been made for a number of those people. And it has proven to be quite therapeutic for people who are lonely. I remember reading about a Japanese lady. She's quite old. She lives on her own. She has this little farm and it's remote and she has one of those little baby seals and it has a little droopy eyes and bring that to you. And it's there and it's cuddly. She is that she looks forward to going home every evening to be with it.


She has formed an attachment and she thinks of it as being it's almost like it's alive for her and it has been shown for people in some nursing homes. That they respond is, I suppose, in a sense, it's like a child with a doll or a favorite toy under the blanket, and they respond to this toy, especially people with different forms of dementia. And it helps them do so. I wouldn't throw it out and say it has no purpose.


It has no use. And we are getting needlessly attached. I think it is a more deep seated issue that. Why is it that people are. Relationship avoidant, what is it about relating to another human being that is so painful that you want to withdraw? It's beyond the avoidant category. I would think it is a rejection of human.


Interaction. I think is I think it's I think it's actually a rejection of life, yeah, because the nature of life means that everything that we really want. Comes from EFFA. The better and I think Pat's. Have been used in much the same way as robots probably will. And even like teddy bears, it really comes down to. People wanting what they want, but not willing to to pay the price for it. I mean, as in a relationship with a real human is work.


But the work that we do. Is what changes us, we which what we find, what we want. And Grothus is a person. And I think. There are people that aren't willing to put in the work, and those are the people that are going to want the. Whether it's a robot or or a pat. And. Because I mean, we love children, we love pets because we we we give to them because it's actually what we give them that develops love and.


But I think many people have passed rather than the relationship or even in the relationship, because you know that you get unconditional love from an animal. We don't get that from people and. That. Ability to be in the relationship without getting everything you want. Is the bit that we find most challenging. But it's also the most rewarding. Because to be in a relationship that really works, you have to work. And so you have to change and evolve.


And. It's it's it's that process. Of evolving, that makes the relationship worthwhile. If you say that way, if somebody is not willing to put in the work, does that relate to learned helplessness, which is to say that they've been rejected or abandoned before and now they think that that's what will happen in the future?


I think it's. Fear. It's fear that isn't good enough. Fear that they fear that no one will love them as long as they are. So some of it, yes, some of that is experiences and feeling like it's too much hassle. There's a lot of people that's one of relationships right now. And I'm sure you probably know people inside of relationships, too much hassle and. It's just because they're experienced, because they don't know. I think it's very widely, widely.


Like the mainstream says, go have a Matoba, get this car and everyone loves you. But I don't think many people really know what you have to do to make a relationship work. And so that creates added helplessness. So, yes, I think ultimately it's not believe that I the. OK, so moving on. I think. So let's go to the next so we sort of. Talked about attachment styles. Did we answer all the questions I'm trying to think back because we sort of went off on some tangent.


Does anyone have a question that they feel like we didn't answer or. In the. OK, right, so. I think one of the big problems we have in relationships is we think that we're. Dealing with things consciously and based on facts. So. Know, talking about pets, we're not that far removed, you know, a nervous system doesn't involve. It's like one hundred thousand years for us to evolve to other circumstances, if you look 100000 years ago, our world looks nothing like it does now.


And that's why there's so much anxiousness, so much stress in our world. And. So. When when someone is like if you come home and you're feeling on top of the world, you've had a great day at work and you things have gone really well and everyone has been really pleasant when you come home. Whatever happens, you're probably going to. Be in a really positive way, interact in a really positive way if you've been in work and.


You've been left out of the Christmas dinner, if there is a Christmas dinner and a group of going out without you and you've been the one left out or you been and you've been in a meeting and someone took all your ideas and. The and left. Like or you got humiliated in front of everyone and lost the contract. You're going to come home in an entirely different mood, and that's got nothing to do with how the person's reacted. It's to do with.


Whatever state you're in. And. We believe that we're reacting on consciously what's happening. But most of the time, we're reacting to how we feel. And so this goes back to the toothpaste and the toilet seat and the clothes on the floor arguments, because they're mostly arguments of when we're feeling down, when we're feeling. Low and so we. Ascribe that that person didn't care about us, that that person doesn't care enough to change. Where is if we were feeling more positively?


We wouldn't we maybe wouldn't have made an issue of it. So. Really? So what stands out and talks about the couple bubble, and I like the way that economists describe it and they say like basically when you were in a couple. The motto should be, when you have a baby, the world stops and we're going to stop everything and fix you before we deal with anything else. And so really, that's what Stan is talking about, is about.


How are some examples of people rowing and then rowing based on fears that they have their rowing, like, for example, one was their Thanksgiving dinner. It's the first time she's met the family and she just feels left out like they're all talking. And then she she says, I don't really want to go to your family if that's how it's going to be like. And he's like, you know what? It so maybe for attention and what was really going on.


And she's going to get into a situation where the he's the younger brother and the older brother's the one that gets all the attention, all the praise, and he's fighting to get his dad's attention. All of this is going on and she's not answering any of the history or any of the backstory. But he doesn't mean to say that. And she is going to say, look, I just feel left out for the lady, so they overreacted and they just roll but without ever talking about what they're really arguing about.


So so there's a brain theory of triune brain theory that we have free brain systems, that we have a reptilian brain, which is basically the same as for reptiles and all animals have there's a more advanced one, the limbic system. And then we've developed the cerebral cortex, which is uniquely human, which gives us our language. And it gives us some more complex for. Now, when we feel something as threatening. That becomes that fear overrides everything else.


And so the reason that we feel so much anxiety and stress is because we have this nervous system that is built to react to stress and to fear, and it's constantly being triggered. But the fear isn't like the sabertooth tiger or the dinosaur coming for us. It's the. The fact that we've been left out as someone to jump the queue or something like that. So what we're defining is stress and threat. Isn't life threatening anymore, but we have an ally friend in response.


And so. When we have. That threat, then we're going to overreact emotionally because that threat creates an emotional state where we feel that we need to say something, where we feel we can't just let it go. And so stands out and talks about primitives being that frack, the thing that's picking up old friends and ambassadors are what he talks about, the cerebral cortex. So when we we're thinking consciously, we're much more concerned about what people are thinking of us.


And so we. Smoothing over with saying, I know I don't really know what it was and we're not really getting into the truth of this is what I felt, and this is why I reacted there, like trying to justify. And so we argue we become defensive in an argument and we argue to justify to. So we kind of get rooted in positions similar to victimization. Probably in a sense that we have Ruhl's. But so that's really what's going on, because we on the surface, we kind of civilized and we we like to pretend that we're civilized, but underneath where, Bill?


As an animal with instincts and emotions, and so that's really it's about being safe.


I mean, that's not like the cocoon and the bubble, not to have that safety, to not show the uncivilized side, but to be able to express that vulnerability with somebody else.


Yeah. Yes. Yeah, so. Yes, is when when we feel threatened that we react and because we feel threatened, we and because we don't feel safe and part of it has nothing to do with anyone else. But because of what we brought from our own past relationships and shouted that we feel we don't feel safe. So. When? But we have to we I think that, you know, I think we all fall into that role sometimes and I do myself, you know, sometimes when I'm feeling over threatened and whatever else.


And I won't be completely honest about it, not because I'm lying. It's just because I'm so sort of aroused is the word that some can use, but not in a sexual sense, but it just arouses in and just overstimulated. And I'm not even aware of my own self at that point. So like you said, it just then becomes reactions. So I think it's just about taking time out to actually check in with yourself and go, actually, how am I feeling?


What is the problem here? So that you can express it to somebody else.


And and that's also knowing each other and.


Trusting the other person so that when someone does react like that, that you're like you're not psychic on the surface and then becoming taking that as a friend into it can be patient and tolerant and know that the person is going to come through and stuff like that.


Yeah. And. Yes, it's it's. It's developing that trust and giving someone that. Room for error. Yeah, and reacting with calmness. So sort of being this being the anchor and being the sort of wall or when that the fire sort of thing.


Yeah. Yeah, it's just not it's not taking it personally. And it's not even safe in the other person as well, to an extent, isn't it? Yeah. That this is where most of us can live with a child. When it's your child, you're like, you know, I'm talking about my son.


Oh, yeah. It's the only experience I've got.


And yeah. So we do it with a child because we know that they're four years old. But we we see on the surface, we look at our partner as being an adult, they should they should do better. We can say that for free, open a neurochemically. We're still four year old one.


That's one thing the Senzaki mentions in the book. I thought it was good that you said is that you can be there for your partner to heal the baby if you need to be. Yeah, yeah, it's really recognizing that it's a wounded child that's reacting. And self-esteem, and I think you meant you mentioned like, how do you hear that's how you heal it by being in a relationship. So you obviously have to talk about it so that someone knows.


So someone who has an anxious attachment style, that they're like, OK, I get anxious. So I'm going to react and I need you to be like this. And so you need someone in a relationship that has the ability to stay calm and work with you for. And that's how it's healed. OK, so when we went into the breakroom, we were talking about, like sometimes wanting to be upfront and direct and being open and honest and I think listening to everything that's being said today, I'm just wondering at what point in any relationship do you have to.


And like, sort of voice your opinion about things that you're not happy with, because if not talking about it because you're afraid that the other person's going to get offended is making you keep quiet. And then later on, things like toilet seat and toothpaste flares. You were. What point in that relationship do you have to say, OK, I think I've got to say something here because I'm boiling inside and if you're the one on the receiving end.


How do you how do you accept this criticism or whatever it is that is being put forward to you as your own contribution was making the other person feel? How do you accept the. When when do you say I would say I think straight away, if you don't say it is juice and when it's Jews, then it becomes bitter and it becomes ours, a torrent is going to come out. If you said straight away, it's just fact, there's less emotion to it.


If you're worried about offending the other person as well. I think it's good to sell the conversation just to say, look, I'd really like to address something with you, but I'm worried that you're going to react negatively to what I've got to say. But I'd really appreciate if you could hear me and if I could work out something together. I think, you know, if you open it up like that, if there were if there were a person on the day that moving the relationship forward to be willing to, like, sort out.


And it's been aware that if they have an anxious attachment style, if you say someone with an anxious attachment, style is going to be much more sensitive to criticism. So may not particularly like I I think we just I just I just believe in the truth, nothing details. But I know that people aren't always done with. And what I realized was that. For me, it's not about blame or or criticism, and I didn't mean that, but people who sometimes take that.


And they take it because they're already so anxious, they're already sensitive in their head, they're already telling them they're not good enough, and so they find it very difficult. To take criticism, so I think, like Sasha says, you have to set it up and said that because immediately you say criticism, they're going to feel, oh, you want to get rid of me because I'm doing this wrong. But said, if you say that first and say, you know, like, I really like being with you, I really like spending time with you.


Here's a couple of things we can work on to that would make me feel better or something like that where it's. Reassuring before. Since the context. Does that make sense? Yeah. It does. But what about the second part where I keep on and off, like receiving whatever the criticism is, at what point do you have to? Yeah, I mean, how do you accept both without allowing yourself to feel like you're the victim? I don't think there's a problem in feeling like a victim and respond to it and argue as long as you're able to work it out so.


OK, so it's like he talks about saving herself, so it's about being mindful and, OK, how am I feeling? Why am I feeling like this? So there are things you can do to. Feel less anxious in the moment. Ultimately, though. Like, we're talking about this and it sounds like you have to be perfect in the way that you deliver, in the way that you take it, but in real life, relationships are messy.


And as long as you trust the other person and you can have an argument there and not be the end of the world. Yeah, and I think it's just recognizing that criticism doesn't mean I want to finish with, but a lot of people are going to overreact with criticism because they feel you're not good enough. I'm rejecting you. This is it. And so that's that's why people don't like. So then there's there's ways of delivering it, like radical honesty is a is a good book and also calls for nonviolent communication is sort of I feel like this when you do this.


I feel like this. I would like if you could do this. Yes. So that's a good strategy. Nonviolent communication and. Basically, he his whole premise is that. People want to help you, and if you're honest, this is how I feel. I would like a. This is how I feel when you do this. I would like if you would do this, and so basically you're giving someone the user manual for how to how to be with the.


OK, right, so if we the next bit is where it talks about dating specifically, so. He talks about just being conscious about what you're looking for. I think it goes into more detail. I think one of the problems with dating is. What people are looking for isn't necessarily what they really want. Because we were unaware of what we really want. And. So I think there's so many people that have this checklist of this, this, this, this is this and this, and if I get the person that has all those checklists, it's not necessarily going to give them the relationship they want.


And part of it is that you evolve and the relationship evolves free. So. So, yeah, basically, it's just like being very conscious of what you want. And then he talks about letting people so you screen people for your first impressions. If you think you can make a relationship work with this person, then you get other people to them. And so they're looking for. So you basically getting other people's perspectives. Because sometimes other people are going to see things that you're not going to see, and then he talks about Sherlockian, which is basically looking for clues.


So not rushing into a relationship, take at least a year to to look, but look at people in a different context, look for clues. What does this imply about someone in a long term relationship? I think there's the dating relationship, a domestic relationship with two completely different things. And you want to be sure one translates into the other. So I think he also talked about in trial periods of living together, because that's different from dating. And.


Then like when it goes into a relationship, he's talking about making an agreement. He also talks I found quite interesting is that. We respond to threats. Responses to strange things as threats, so the partner, after a while becomes familiar and because they become familiar, we play on autopilot. We don't really pay attention until there's a threat. They're talking about very consciously dating while we were in a relationship, keeping the closeness and intimacy and so that lie.


Otherwise, the only time you really notice your partner is. When there's a threat, when something that they do feels threatening to you. So is the infatuation that I thought it was good as well, making sure you see through the fog of the situation in the day and stage?


Yeah, yeah, definitely, yes. Basically, I missed that initially. What you feel for someone is going to be biochemical. His excitement, for example, there a study if you meet someone in a high risk environment. Because your emotional state is race activated, you'll associate that with arousal and you associate that as attraction to someone so you could feel like in a high risk situation, you could feel an attraction to someone, meet them again in a low risk situation and not feel that attraction.


And it's because you're mistaking arousal for attraction.


So. Yeah, and when you're dating, there's a lot of nerves, so you're in a state of arousal, so you're more likely to respond in feeling attraction and it's recognizing that lust and excitement is very different from love. And he talks about infatuation with far away lust, love being close. Being looking in someone's eyes and tackling Timothy. Did I miss anything else? So any questions or comments or. You know, I've got a sort of comment, if you've been in relationships where people have been abusive in any way.


And that's left to. Struggling to rewrite trust, what what what do you what is your advice about that? So you mean like they've then gone into another relationship and they're struggling to trust? Yeah, or they find themselves repeating either the whole thing about you, you repeat your past if you don't sort out your issues, so you could end up in a similar relationship where someone treats you in an in a similar way if they're unfaithful and you find yourself just only ever meeting people who aren't, aren't you going to commit fully?


Somehow you attract that sort of. Yes, so certainly you don't actually want, but you end up getting it again, your chance, it's worrisome. You familiar to. He talks about becoming conscious of that in the beginning, somewhere between these to this, I can't remember exactly where it was. I don't know if you know what these to this to subconscious things that are working that why we're attracted to people. And one of them is because of familiar, familiar art and say familiar familiarity.


Someone would that.


Yeah, no, I know. I know that. I'm just saying, after you've got your familiarity and you understand that concept, that more well.


Really is about. Healing the issue, I think you need to reframe the issue of so the reaction when someone is unfaithful, for example. Is to then judge generalize that unfaithfulness to other people and therefore you don't trust because in your experience, general bastards. So. So there's that so serious about reframing, okay, that happened in this specific instance. Sometimes people believe it was based on them, it was a reflection on them, they cheated on me because I must be good enough.


So it's recognizing. The reality separating the reality from the narrative, so the narrative is on me, I want to tell me I'm not good enough. I choose the wrong people, so there's all that kind of narrative where you're looking at the. Reality of the situation. OK, what really happens in this situation, situations happen in specific context with specific people. And the more specifically you are. The less you to generalize the principle of cognitive economy is that we generalize, so we generalize that all people do this all times.


So. So that's so we carry that forward as we work on rules of thumb and so we can take those rules of arms and they can be mistaken. So let me say, what was the question? How do you handle that trust? So it's you often people trust without reason. Often people will get into a relationship, particularly we have this whole patriarchal situation where women have been. Like told the certain expectations set behavior that makes you a good person if you're not yourself.


And so what happens is people have these rules about I'm not going to get into a relationship with someone until three days in, three months in or whatever. And so we react on last and we. And so I think a lot of women get into a relationship. Because they feel lost, because they feel they want to be close to someone. And they give the relationship more. Value, because if I'm sleeping with this person, I must love them, if I must if I love them, then I must trust them.


And because of that, they trust people they should trust is something based on the evidence that you have. And when you trust people because you were in a relationship with them, because you should trust someone you're in a relationship with, then that's like trusting someone just because someone's a bank, you just automatically going to trust them. Does that make sense? Yeah, so you trust based on evidence and evidence and the specifics of the situation and of what happened is very specific, but you don't do it on a generalization.


If you don't generalize ization evil, why are you going to get her, because you trusted someone who didn't deserve it. And then the other thing is not being afraid of. Giving people the chance to hurt you. And I think people are afraid of. Trusting because they're scared of getting her. And I think part of relationship is you do get hurt, but, you know, you learn how to heal and when you can heal, you're not scared of trusting.


And so you get to know who you can trust and who you can't because you give them the chance to. And if they have the chance to hurt you and they don't, then you can trust them. If you give them the chance to hurt them. And I do, then you learn and you should get out of the relationship because that's not someone you can trust. Yeah, OK, that's a good answer. Thank you. The other thing I just heard, they mentioned Sherlock.


Yes. It's not a good thing to do. And. I couldn't work out whether it was a good thing or not a good thing to do that sort of, yeah, just it doesn't mean in the sense of like, I'll start rooting through the pockets and looking for evidence, that sort of thing. It's just more like just sort of taking a step back to assess things that you can see in reality before entering into the relationship. Does that make sense or is that.


Yeah, yeah, I just I couldn't work out whether it was. But good things to know it didn't, you know, sometimes things are said as if. You shouldn't do that. I just wondered what was implied advises that you do for like so like like Rob was saying about looking for clues and things like this more sometimes it's more about what we're not telling you rather than what we are telling you.


And I just I think often people tell you exactly. And we don't always want to hear it because we're lost in some lost or Chemical Romance. And actually they're absolutely showing us who they are. We just don't always see it. Yeah.


Yeah, I think. Basically, we don't know much about someone, so if you meet someone, you know nothing and Sherlockian is is the putting together all the clues to to give you a bigger picture. But I think even within a relationship, I think is worth that because the how how can you be responsive, caring, thoughtful to someone if you don't really know who they are? So in talking about like the healing from the trust is about, we we have those wounds because we generalize and it's overriding the human tendency to generalize.


So your main relationship is where is the most important relationship? You should give that all your attention and energy and sexuality is part of that is knowing the person in more detail. And we think because someone all the states, we think we know all that stuff and we put labels on people in relationships, and once we put labels on them, we think we know them. And so we stop being interested in. And so other people become more interesting.


And so that's why the grass is greener. But if you keep your interest on understanding who they are, because most people don't even know who they are, we don't know ourselves, there's much more hidden in ourselves than than another person. So if you pay that much attention, that's how someone holds interest. We have longer term.


Yeah, well, excited about going today now again. OK, thanks. I just need to find someone who wants today from covid the question.


Yes, you can just pick up. And I think it's a perfect time to get to know lots of people and learn lots about people on video dates.


I'm going to do a little love. I think I'm going to do like the Sherlock quiz.


The subtle Sherlock quiz is going to make one episode where there is the thirty nine questions to fall in love to.


They're about somewhere. Sorry, Betty. Yeah.


I was wondering if you've got any advice for avoidance to avoid avoiding. It's. Recognizing the pattern, the pattern of avoidance is pushing people away, too scared to recognize them as fear. So this is fear. I feel fear so. I don't have to be controlled by fear. Unless you're willing to live with it, you're going to be controlled by fear. So you're always going to avoid everything. And it's the same relationship as a career as any other thing is that is the fear will stop if they will limit your life.


So it's recognizing that it's fair and it's not real, it's recognizing uncorrect, this trauma because of my fear. It's. Looking through, listening to yourself, like, why, why do I say that, why do I think why am I wanting to do that? Why did I do that? And then being telling someone we talked about d'Elegance last week, but basically he came up with this thing called Accountability Accountability Mirror, and he said if he lied, he would go back and tell that person he lied to them and he made himself do that if he went to the gym.


Sure. He went back and did the whole gym session again because he was like five percent sure. So making yourself that accountable so you won't get it right first time, but you go back and you have to do it. And then when you keep doing that, that makes you more conscious of it. Does that answer your question or is that gone off on a tangent? Yes, thank you. How would you feel, if you don't mind?


That thing you mentioned about keeping someone interested or they have to be interested, otherwise they get to know you and then the grass is greener and it takes two to tango. They need to still remain invested in the relationships to put the effort to meet you halfway. And what happens when at the beginning of the relationship, even with Stern looking at everything, they were sincerely interested and compromising and good and all of that. And then circumstances changed and now they have to keep traveling and and, you know, I wouldn't be the priority anymore.


And then you say, OK, well, we use what someone here said. You say, I need to talk to you and we need to work on this. And they say, well, that's the best I can give you. Like, basically that's the deal. Are you saying that sometimes it has to end? And I think relationships are really about how you navigate them. It's not about the relationship, it's about how you navigate your relationships and sometimes people are going to change and people are you.


Screen as much as you can for someone who's committed, someone who's got all the qualities, but sometimes people will change. People won't be that invested, so. Not like not straight off, first of all, a triangle beneath. OK, so you're not interested. You don't want to. So I'm not a priority, is there is really you need to get to the truth of what's underneath that. Is it fair? Are they saying that because they're pissed off that something you did in May last week, that they failed you, you didn't care about them?


Is it a moment? Momentary thing is, is uncovering the. And either they've given up trying, it's not a priority, but probably something is that they're not happy. And so this is why consciously you continue to die and. I think your job in a relationship is are you happy? What can I do to support you so that you can make someone happy, but the relationship can give them the basis to to be as happy as they can.


So it's consciously, I think before ideally before we get to that stage, is knowing your partner, Mrs. Chilaquiles. OK, so this is really miserable. This is really happy. Where where are they? And then I noticed you're not having as much fun. You're not smiling as much. You know, you don't seem as happy. Is anything bothering you? And it might be that there's something bothering them, maybe nothing to do with you, but because, like, how someone's going to react is dependent on how happy they are.


So. Stands out and says you're responsible for them, they're responsible for you. You can't make someone happy, but you can. Like your. Boundaries and concern is for them, and you offer my not let you in, but if they really are not interested, then it means that they probably know they're happy for some reason, whether it's the relationship or something else, they don't think it will make a difference talking about it. They don't think it can be fixed.


So. If I don't believe it, then there's nothing you can do. And it might not be a momentary thing, but you need them. To. Big. I mean, they're going to be times when I need you more than them and it's going to be times when you need them more than you can give. But over time, if someone just completely come out somewhere, they made a decision because they're not happy. No. So so that's.


Basically, Transaction's view is anyone any questions or comments or. I see this a couple of things in the child. I think he told us before the break, I mean, the second record, you said that you were going to post some links from me.


Yes, yeah, I found some. I just quickly giggled attachment. There is a post. Was there a book as well you were talking about we have about attachment. This is a book we're talking about Stanton, quite exciting. There are other books I did mention attached. I don't think that was going to help and I didn't think it was particularly good. See, Johnstons, I. I liked better. I think Stan Takins book is good. I didn't like his way of writing.


I find it hard to read. I like Sue Johnson is better. But, yeah, that probably the three main attach attachment. What specifically regards dating Stan, as far as I understand, this is the only one specifically for dating. I mean, he had basically attachment books on relationship and he just took it and applied it to dating. I think if you want a relationship is pretty much the same. A quick question before I say bye often to you meet you meet every Monday, so every every Monday at 7:00 on this link.


Yeah. So next week we have.


Is it a relationship landscape? I can never remember. Yes, as every Monday. At the same time. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Nice meeting you all, something to see.


Can Priscilla. OK, so if anyone else has anything to come in or. I've also meet again next week, hopefully you can make it. Thank you, everyone, for coming along. Thank you, Rob.


See you next time. All right. Next week.


Thanks, everyone. Bye.