Jenny Popplewell is a huge name in documentary, but in this incredibly humble and revealing conversation, she tells Kimberly of her fight to be taken seriously as a director and how she's only just believing of her own success. This is a strong contender for most-whiplash-inducing episode of noddingly relatable content for Producers and Directors - or anyone wanting their career to move on and feels they are not being heard. Jenny has such important anecdotes and valuable advice, we are very grateful for her wise words.

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Thanks to Edit Cloud for being awesome humans and funding the edit of season two with their cool virtual software: www.editcloud.co

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Episode guest info:

Jenny Popplewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennypopplewell/

Resources

Film & TV charity - https://filmtvcharity.org.uk/ - 24 hour support line, as well as lots of other useful resources.

Samaritans

- https://www.samaritans.org/

Mind

- https://www.mind.org.uk/

Shout - if you would prefer to text not talk

https://giveusashout.org/

Call It - bullying and harrassment

https://www.callitapp.org/

Mentioned in this episode:

Edit Cloud - the world's first fully native cloud-based virtual editing solution

www.editcloud.co Such lovely, forward-thinking people, do say hello and check out the future of post with them. Founder: Simon Green on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-gr33n/ Big thanks to Simon, Ash and the team at Edit Cloud for editing season 2.

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The Imposter Club is produced by talented people, staffing and headhunting company in TV production with a mission to make the industry a happier, more creatively diverse place in just a minute.

2

By the end of it, I felt like a d o p without any training.

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Like, what am I doing with a full on proper camera here, shooting four K and managing four channels.

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And I felt like a one man band when I should have had an orchestra.

5

This is The Imposter Club, the podcast uniting all us tv, film, and content folk secretly stressing that everyone else has its sorted.

6

Except us.

7

I'm Kimberly Godbolt, TV director, turn staff and company founder.

8

And each episode I want you to hear the real story of a successful industry figure.

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Not the glossy announcements we usually see, but the truth of their career journey, including the bumpy bits to help you make sense of your own health warning.

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This podcast may incur whiplash from violent nodding plus an unfamiliar, but hopefully welcome feeling of belonging.

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Documentary director and executive producer Jenny Popplewell is Today's Imposter in the Club.

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If you are into your docks, it's hard to imagine a more enviable career with so much ownership of ideas and access to boot.

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Listen to this conceived, pitched, and directed American murder.

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The Family Next Door, which break the record for the most watched feature doc on Netflix at the time.

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Seen by 52 million accounts in its first 28 days.

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Conceived, pitched, produced and self shot.

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Channel four's most watched, cutting Edge, my big fact Gypsy Wedding, which led to the very long running series.

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Pitched, produced, directed and self shot Jamie Drag Queen at 16.

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Inspiration for the West End musical.

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Everybody's talking about Jamie Witch.

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I was dancing around my kitchen too this morning in Prep.

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Oh, Anna Hollywood movie starring Witch de Grant and Sarah Lancaster amongst others.

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All of this whilst bringing up a young family and negotiating her way through male dominated directing territory.

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So I'm so keen to pick apart the wise and the hows of decision making in Jenny's career.

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Staying sane, hopefully as well as successful.

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So welcome to the Imposter Club, Jenny.

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Thanks Kimberly.

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What a lovely LinkedIn review.

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for reading me my LinkedIn credits.

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Thank you, .

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There

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You go.

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Just, you know, calling it right back at you.

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Thanks.

35

You know, a bit of, um, kudos.

36

So I like to start by asking people straight off the bat, how would you describe your relationship with imposter syndrome, if you have one at all.

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I do, or I did.

38

I had a bigger relationship with the imposter syndrome early in my career.

39

I'd say it's now just a little voice at the table, uh, amongst other triggering emotions that, uh, I bring in, in a sack on my back to every project and unload into, in, into the project with me.

40

Yeah, I say it's just one of many emotions that I, I carry around, but it's got smaller.

41

It's got a lot smaller as as, um, as I've progressed into the industry.

42

But it doesn't mean it goes away completely.

43

No.

44

Okay.

45

Well, we can dig into some of that and how it has changed or morphed into other things over your career.

46

Um, but said in a nutshell, like I just, did your films sound like dream roles for any director in documentary territory.

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Have you worked on things that you haven't been proud of, and or, or things that have sort of still got you to where you are today nonetheless?

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Uh, I'd firstly say this is like a pinch me moment.

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'cause I don't think couple years ago that I would be imagining someone saying that about my, you know, effectively my CV going, is there anything you're not proud of?

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Whereas I said, there's a period there where I'd be looking at it going like, come on.

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Like, you've gotta sort this out.

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Like you wanna make important films, you wanna make talks about content.

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You're like working all hours.

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It's gotta be for something.

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You can't be making filler.

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I hate making filler tv.

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I hate just putting something out to fill, fill the airwaves to get, you know, the, the advertising revenue and make it cheap and quick and get it out and copy it content out.

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'cause actually cheap and quick just means blood, sweat, and tears and chaos.

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Our end as you're trying to do something in a six week edit and hardly any crew and cheap, quick and cheap only services, uh, the networks, it's such a drain on production, crew and staff.

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And yes, we wanna stay employed, we wanna keep making that, and often they're a great learning curve.

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But, um, when you keep doing them and you keep making them, you are, you start to feel, what's the word used, exploited, I feel you can feel exploited by it because everyone gets what they want, but you pay with your time and your effort and your energy and your, uh, mental health at the end of it.

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I think those have been the hardest ones to make.

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The ones, the ones that people think you are maybe less proud of on your CV are also the ones that often the hardest to make.

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Uh, and you give your most, sometimes you've given your most of, most of yourself, um, to make them.

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I can literally feel people nodding with their headphones in as they're hearing you say that .

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Yeah,

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I mean, sometimes

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There are lots of things that we have to work on.

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It's a great learning curve in some ways, and you really learn to find story quickly and, and make decisions quickly.

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And, you know, it can be a challenge and it, it's fun to rise that challenge.

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But then after a period of time doing it again and again and again, you start thinking, this isn't the reason I got into television and I have, I have to do something about it.

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'cause no one's gonna be like, Hey, sit down.

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Can we give you an opportunity of a lifetime?

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And I, well, some people might have that experience.

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I didn't, I didn't have someone open the door and say, please take a seat.

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It's been a little like bashed down the door as opposed to knock gently on it.

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You have to really, I felt I had to fight.

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I had to fight for my seat at the table.

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I felt I've only just, just stopped fighting and now, yeah.

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Wow.

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The imposter syndrome moment is when people read out and say like, how are you great with your c v?

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I feel like it's only just happened in a moment.

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There is suddenly I can turn around and go, I'm proud of my career.

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So I think the imposter syn, I think the imposter syndrome is because it feels like a blink in an 18 year career that I suddenly feel like, okay, the graft is, you know, I've dragged my way up here and like, you know, it's elbowed as you roll your sleeves up and get your elbows out and you're like, you've gotta keep fighting.

85

You've gotta keep, you know, you get told early in your career you're only as good as your last credit.

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And then, you know, filled with dread as you start to see a contributor drop out or the channel change their mind or edit overrun and you're filled with panic, like, oh, my reputation's in tatters now gonna hire me again.

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Or, oh, I'm gonna be making series 27 of this forever because I I'm not gonna get an opportunity elsewhere.

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But, um, yeah, I, I found that I had to create my own opportunities to rise up to the next challenge and, uh, and further my career.

89

So how, well, gosh, so many questions.

90

firstly, why, why do you think you didn't have a seat at the table then for so many years?

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Well, I think it changed over the, I think our industry has seen change and I've seen it.

92

And now I'm 42.

93

I started in my twenties, um, 18 years in this.

94

And I think I've seen technology change through the career.

95

And we started off on tape.

96

Our runner role literally meant taking a tape to the channel, you know, for on the tube for them to put it, put it out that night.

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Um, our industry's changed.

98

We've had to evolve with technology.

99

I started off as a shooter and I was shooting on what was a glorified, you know, handycam.

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By the end of it I felt like a D o P without any training.

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Like what am I doing with a full on proper camera here, shooting four K and managing four channels and of audio and like, what is, I felt like a one man band when I should have had an orchestra .

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And I just felt, so, I felt our industry has seen change.

103

So I would say that any one point, my fight has changed as well.

104

I don't, I don't think my fight is just the same at the beginning as it was at the end.

105

I think in the early days, and we we're going back premi to pre pre positive hires.

106

I I, I heard this, I dunno if you've heard it before, but I've heard it from, from a company I started out in, uh, girls are good on the phone, boys are good with cameras.

107

Wow.

108

No, and that, I mean, I

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Had that sense, but

110

Never heard that that was, that was, that was the role, that was the route in the companies I started.

111

So you were filtered in the early days, like girls were off to be aps and researchers and you were making phone calls and trying to secure contributors and keeping them on side.

112

And the boys were filtered over into kit management and camera assistant and then suddenly they're shooting and then suddenly their director.

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Now, I think that doesn't just hold back women, that holds back boys as well.

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As soon as you like, divide people in a skillset and you just cut them off from the 360 that you need to do your job.

115

So you felt, you know, I, I've spoken to male directors now that said there was a period in their career where they really struggled.

116

'cause the roles they needed to be taking were AP level, the people were hiring females.

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Right.

118

Oh, interesting.

119

And

120

Then, yeah, and then, then women were saying, you know, we're producers and aps and then we can't make that step because they're like, you know, can we see your shooting?

121

I need to see your show role.

122

And you're like, well, I'm barely allowed to touch the camera.

123

Did you want to direct?

124

Yeah.

125

Um, but you were only getting producer opportunities then for a certain period?

126

I

127

Would say I wanted to direct for years.

128

I always knew that was the role I wanted to go into.

129

But, um, I stayed in each role for a long time.

130

And I think I, I, looking back, I don't think that was a bad thing.

131

Sometimes I've worked with people that I think it's not fair on them, it's not fair on the crew that, and I can see people who have been promoted too quickly.

132

And I think, yes, I'm always there to, I, I want to help them through that, that role on that jump.

133

But at the same time, it's kind of a mirror up to be like, this is why you spent, it's not one credit move up, one credit move up, one credit move up or two credits and move up.

134

You learn so much in those roles and you have to be a master of your craft before you take on the next one.

135

So sometimes I do.

136

There's a balance,

137

Isn't there?

138

Yeah.

139

Between like being in a role for too long because you're not getting the opportunities and you deserve them, but being in a role long enough that you, you do it thoroughly and well and are then confident enough to, to move up.

140

Right.

141

So did you, did you find that you weren't getting those opportunities soon enough?

142

I felt

143

Like, have you ever heard the saying, if you don't wanna do the washing up, don't do it.

144

Well,

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Yes.

146

Yeah.

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I felt like I washed up quite well as a producer and I should have probably left some soap sauce on the plate for a little bit longer.

148

, I think, I think right at the end and at that period.

149

And again, that sounds quite smug, doesn't it?

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Like, hey, I was a fantastic producer and everybody wanted to keep me as a producer, but no, what it was,

151

I don't think it does

152

Sound smug.

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I think, I just think it sounds like people took you for granted and, and didn't want you to promote 'cause you were brilliant at what you were doing.

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I think I had a skillset set as a producer.

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I'm not, I see producers now at, on the films I work on, and they are better producers than I was when I was a producer.

156

But I think at that period where TV was, when I was making television as a producer, I felt like I was quite good at finding securing access or just working hard to be like, no Stone left unturned and coming out with ideas.

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It was just always ideas how to find the next person, how to like, tell this story.

158

This hasn't worked, this hasn't worked, these people aren't speaking, how are we gonna finish this?

159

Well, so I felt I was an asset to a PD at that time, but, uh, unfortunately that meant that as another series or another series came round, another series came round, you had find yourself still in those roles because you did that.

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Well, you, you

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Know, when I think of you actually pre American murder, I think of you being in an exec producer job for a long time at one company, um, on lots of things, but, you know, one of which was a returning Channel five series, which was, you know, super successful.

162

But I, I don't think I could have ever envisaged you as an exec then suddenly becoming, uh, this director of the most watched ever Netflix featured doc.

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I mean, how did that happen?

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The

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Reason I went back to, I'd had three children, so I'd had my first, and then just before he turned two, I gave birth to twins.

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So I had three under two, uh Oh wow.

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Yeah.

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Full, full hand hands, full, uh, heartful hands, full .

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Um, whilst pregnant with Harvey or whilst pregnant with the twins, I was a shooting director or a a I was directing films, so working due to pregnancies.

170

But then as soon as they finished, I was like, right, I just wanna be there for my children.

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I wanna focus, you know, they're only little once.

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So I knew I was gonna step away.

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I went back when the twins were one and found this role with Jonathan Stalin, where, um, I'd pitched him a i'd, okay.

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During the time the twins were little, I'd got access to people leaving a cult and started to film that as you do just

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A usual mat leave, just leave having coffee in Starbucks.

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And then, oh look, I've got access to, to

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A cult.

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So I, I started wife on that and then pitched it around.

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Then Jonathan found a director to finish that film.

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Um, and I gave him some notes on the film at the end, and he said that, I think you could be an exec.

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I think you should come work for me as an exec.

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And, you know, that was gonna be a part-time role two days a week.

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That quickly became three days a week.

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And quickly before you know it, you're working five days a week and evenings and weekends, because there was so much on, and it got hectic, you know, as a constantino you'd have periods of quiet and then full on crazy craziness.

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But that was when there were one.

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But I, I always knew that ex executing fitted my family life at that time, and it wasn't the reason I'd got into television.

187

And it was fun for five years to like, support other filmmakers and learn about compliance and really see budgets and understand the process from, from that side.

188

And I, I definitely think it's changed me as a director now when I really understand more of like how that side works.

189

But I'd always said when the twins, when they started school, when they turned five, I'd want to return to directing.

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Um, that this was only gonna be a stop gap for me.

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And then I, um, come up with American murder.

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The boys were four and we were pitch, we were pitching it to a couple of places.

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Um, and then,

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And were you in development at that time as, as well then

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Alongside executive?

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No, I was executing.

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I just, just always just a development.

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So this is like a side hustle.

199

Yeah.

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I always developed, always this ideas obsessed with like, can't, like

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The cult side hustle while you're at soft play.

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This was a, um, yeah, a story that captured you.

203

Why do you think you felt so personally passionate about it, to do so much extra work on it and get it through?

204

You know, did you have your own agenda as well because you wanted to direct it?

205

I

206

Actually didn't.

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I didn't actually want to, so I didn't realize that I was gonna direct that film.

208

I was just hiring a team.

209

So I'd, hi, I'd hired Simon Barker, incredible ed editor, um, and just gathering a team and had put forward some names for the director and the, the net, you know, Netflix were asking to keep thinking.

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And then suddenly I was like, wait, realizing this was gonna start in September and my boys were starting school in September.

211

I was suddenly like, hold on this, this is it, this is, this is the film.

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This is, this is the one I should go back.

213

And I, I could see it so clearly in my head.

214

So then just suddenly felt like, actually I've handed too many away.

215

I felt like there were films I've also come up with that then I didn't direct.

216

And you suddenly feel like I'm never gonna have that hit again.

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I'm not you, you're not gonna have that success again.

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And I handed that, that became somebody else's baby, somebody else's project.

219

It's like giving something up for adoption.

220

You're just something like, hold on, I've just given this away and this became a big hit.

221

And it's a big hit because they made it and it's how they vision it, and you can't take credit for their film.

222

Of course, at the same time I've done that unless, and I was like, actually, I just, something niggling, he said like, don't give this one away.

223

Like, keep hold of this one.

224

Like, you believe in this one, keep hold of it.

225

You're not going to want to miss this.

226

I've talked to people now and they, they tell you horror stories of projects they've worked on where execs are screaming and shouting and camera men are being mean, and a director's been rude.

227

So when you feedback like, oh, that's not worked, what they hear is, you're failing again.

228

You shit, you're fucked up.

229

You are listening to the Imposter Club and I'm talking to Jenny

230

Popplewell.

231

Did

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You have to convince Netflix?

233

Like, did, did you have to do any work to show them how you would direct?

234

Um,

235

I, I don't know behind the scenes what was going on.

236

Um, I can imagine they weren't high fiving going, yes, but Jenny Popplewell to direct this woo pop the champagne.

237

I think, I imagine they probably want to keep close eye on me for the first couple of months just to, you know, in that first cut and probably just see how it goes.

238

Probably.

239

I think it was really good of them to give me that opportunity and that chance to not just say, no, you're not gonna do it and we're gonna go with an experienced director and you can be a, you know, continue your role Atec producer.

240

Or like, the fact that I said, no, I really want to do this and I've been a director just not in this space, um, forever grateful that, that they gave me that opportunity.

241

But I do think you directing that for the first time as of, you know, never having done a feature doc or, you know, retrospective storytelling or not evidenced it to a global streamer is a fantastic example as to why we shouldn't.

242

And hiring managers, streamers, bosses shouldn't just always go for the person who's got exactly the right credits.

243

Because look what you did with it.

244

You brought a take that was totally yours influenced by your passion in it and your own ideas, and probably fed in by you being a mom lived experience.

245

You know how you might tell that story, I don't know.

246

But, you know, just, just going with someone because they've had, they've done a very similar thing before, should not be the go-to in my opinion.

247

Uh, firstly also can't say the successes.

248

It's lays at my feet.

249

I would say yes, I had the initial idea and had a vision in air quotes here, um, but massively, massively spoiled by an insanely good editor, Simon Barker, and then, you know, Johnny Taylor and Zainab and Kate and that their notes that came in, you know, there's six rounds of notes and each time you're like, oh, yes, or, or you're question challenged like, this isn't working, how do you, you know, that it's so collaborative.

250

And I don't think people realize how collaborative it has to be to, to, to bring those films up to that standard.

251

Like you have an, it's, it's such a like, tag team.

252

You have an idea.

253

You, you present something, someone else questions something, you change it, you cha sometimes it, it doesn't work and you move back again.

254

But, but you've got the time to do that as you go back and forth until your final product.

255

Yeah,

256

That's

257

Amazing.

258

Is the best it can be.

259

And if I handed in the film that I can't in the first 10 weeks versus what it was 10 weeks later, like, that would've been what I would've made.

260

And this is the collaboration.

261

So I think you have to just realize it's, you can't do it on your own.

262

So in that role then, that you had elbows out, got yourself into that edit to cut your passion project with your vision, were there moments there where you thought, fuck, I can't, I can't do this.

263

This is really hard

264

On that one.

265

Do you know what I felt that that's one that I've always, I think because I saw it from the beginning and really knew what we were gonna do, I think even when there was a challenge or something that was difficult, we had hard notes where a section really wasn't working and we, you know, we could spend four weeks cutting three minutes and we could spend, you know, four weeks cut on the other, the rest of the film.

266

Like, you know, so it's, it's not proportionate as to the time on screen as to how long you can spend focusing on one section.

267

So I think for that one, just because I believed in it so much and was determined to do it, I don't, I, I felt like my fighting spirit was on that.

268

I felt like that just kept me being like, that was, I was very can do on that one.

269

I think there's other times where you are hand, I remember this at the beginning of my, of my career, you're handed a project from a development team and they're like, this has been commissioned.

270

You start, and on day one you realize it's been oversold and you're about to under-deliver and you're just like, oh no.

271

And there's those moments where you're literally like, oh.

272

And it's so hard not to be the pessimist and shoot the messenger and being like, guys, this is never gonna happen.

273

This is, we can't do this.

274

This organization won't be involved.

275

Those contributors said they won't be on camera.

276

Like you can find all the reasons why it can't be done.

277

And I think there's definitely times that we come home and go like, what am I doing?

278

I give up.

279

Like, this is insane.

280

And then actually sometimes when it does come around and at the end of that program, you've somehow managed to pull off content and it, and it's worked.

281

Sometimes you could be, you just have to relish in that moment and just be like, wow, that really never nearly ha didn't, you know, it didn't nearly happen.

282

But I think is it mindset, is it chance of now I say like TV gods are smiling, there's times where they definitely have it in for you and it's just like, you know, you have a week of like content being pulled because legals or dropout or lost footage or like some, you know, it's just one thing.

283

It's like it doesn't rain, it pauses, it's just like one thing after another and you're just like, I can't take anymore.

284

Um, and then you can just suddenly have loads of like, almost like lucky breaks and you just think like, is this luck?

285

Is it the right team?

286

Is it just circumstance?

287

Have we had our fair share of bad luck?

288

Like, so I guess you just have to focus on when it is going well, just appreciate that it's going well because you've certainly ridden enough storms to know that this, that they don't always run smoothly.

289

Yeah.

290

I mean, do you feel now like you've made it, that you're not worried anymore about your next gig or, um, making something that doesn't work or burning out?

291

No,

292

No.

293

I wouldn't say that.

294

I'd say, I was talking to someone about this the other day.

295

I say it's something, it feels a bit like second album, uh, fear.

296

Like you feel like you've had a hit now.

297

So everyone's like, well now your next one has to be the, like, suddenly this is, is it a bar you set yourself?

298

Is it only you keeping it in check?

299

Are your peers looking at you going, well that was a flop.

300

Why are you working on that?

301

So I think, or oh, she was, that was clearly other people that were helping her make that film.

302

So it was, she just got a lucky break and she rode their coattails.

303

Like, you, you, and they're the inner voice and you just think, I don't think about that.

304

I don't think that of anyone else in the industry.

305

So you know that these little voices, and that's what I say about the imposter syndrome.

306

It's not necessarily imposter syndrome.

307

It's a whole chorus of voices, which is like your own self-doubt in other ways that chirp in and unreasonably you can be unreasonably critical of yourself.

308

Um, and you just think, why am I doing that?

309

And I think that's just something creative people do because that is our work.

310

You put yourself into work, you present it for the world.

311

And any criticism of that of which happens in our industry from the moment the project starts until, until delivery, that's gonna be notes.

312

There's gonna be things that aren't working.

313

People have disagreements, like you are putting yourself out there to receive, uh, rejection and criticism.

314

But it's just how you have to just have a, a hard skin.

315

You have to just embrace it and realize the criticism and the rejection isn't, uh, about you.

316

It's not like you are terrible.

317

You can't do your job.

318

Who thinks you should?

319

And I think that's imposter syndrome.

320

It's where you take criticism as of a product, as personal attack on your ability to do your job.

321

And it's not, you've got that job and you've had those experience and you know, and they know you can do the job, the criticism.

322

And that is about the project and it's about enhancing and improving it.

323

'cause it's their project too.

324

They're the commissioner, they're that your exec, it's their, it's not just your work, it's their reputation.

325

It's their project.

326

They all want to succeed.

327

They're all helping you to make your project better.

328

So yes.

329

So it's, it's almost that you have to separate that out very clearly within yourself and for other people and go, okay, this is my portrayal of it, but in order for it to be the best it can be, I need to accept the feedback from others about the project, not about me as a person.

330

Yeah.

331

Being rubbish at my job.

332

Yeah, for example.

333

I think you can be very triggered.

334

And also you just have to remember you've got your colleagues as well.

335

We've all come from different experiences and you, you know, I, I talk to people now and they, they tell you horror stories of projects they've worked on where execs are screaming and shouting and camera men are being mean and a director's been rude and there's drops happening, you know, and they're coming to the next project with that baggage and you don't know what they're coming with.

336

So when you feedback like, oh, that's not worked.

337

Oh, in future can you do?

338

And you've said in future can you make sure that you add this blah.

339

You know, you give them a steer, what they hear is you're failing again.

340

You shit, you're fucked up.

341

And that's not that.

342

And that doesn't mean you need to be gentler in how you, you are asking your advice.

343

It's just, uh, being aware that in your peer set, we have all had different experiences.

344

We've all come from different jobs.

345

And some of us had a really tough time recently.

346

Um, for example, literally like just weeks ago, perhaps they're just recovering.

347

Some people are quite triggered from their last productions.

348

And I think, um, the imposter syndrome there is of course you're gonna take it personally because it keeps happening to you.

349

People keep, and someone can have, have made the job personal.

350

So rather than, um, this contributor's dropped out, it's something, why didn't you keep them?

351

Why didn't you check on?

352

Why didn't, it's, it is all very, you, you, you.

353

So do you think a lot of the, um, imposter syndrome is, is fed by blame culture?

354

Mm-hmm.

355

Mm-hmm.

356

.

357

Yeah,

358

I think it sounds like that, doesn't it, that if you're constantly not being supported by your managers or bosses and blamed for things, then that does make you doubt your ability, which, like you say, you are then carrying about from to the next level.

359

But, but also actually perhaps you're not getting enough constructive criticism or actual feedback to do it better next time.

360

Therefore you are repeating the same mistake again and again, which is then gonna get you or knock your confidence when people call it out.

361

I think when your confidence is shot, it's really hard to rebuild it and to stay strong again.

362

And then it just becomes this almost self-fulfilling prophecy like keeps happening and you get in a cycle and then, and then you become what people can say about you.

363

So I think it's not just there's a blame culture, it's also there's not enough like support when things do go well, you know, you, everyone will go great.

364

It rated well done and you're onto the next project.

365

You have like five seconds and a wrap party if you're lucky to celebrate.

366

They're like, oh my God, we pulled it off anyway.

367

Where are we with the release?

368

You know, like suddenly you're on the next project and actually you could spend, you know, six months on a project and four months 'em could have been hard graft with lots of like meetings about what went wrong and why.

369

And then a 10 minute email at the end where everyone said, well done guys.

370

We got a guardian review.

371

You know, and that just like, it could be all, all stick and no carrot.

372

And I think that if you're in a, in a blame culture environment is one side that can feed into imposter syndrome because you can take it personally, but then also never hearing when you've done a good job and never hearing, wow, you've someone pulling you, it's really important to your peers.

373

They're a part of your team and you are all helping create this product.

374

They're, you know, leaving their family at weekends, they're missing weddings and events and organize, you know, family time or friend time, you know, personal time to, to, to finish this film with you.

375

Um, production coordinators, production managers, your lawyer, like everybody is working onto this.

376

And when something has worked out and that, you know, your archive producers found something incredible, don't just go, oh, they've got it.

377

And then you talk in the edit and you're like, they've done it and that's it.

378

And the, it's a thankless task.

379

Like come back and say, flip.

380

Where, where did you find that?

381

Oh my God, that's amazing.

382

You're incredible.

383

How did you and listen to 'em for five minutes as they tell you they'd knocked on summer's door and found it in the basement.

384

Like, just acknowledge when other people in your team have done a really good job because you know, that three weeks ago they were getting it in the, in the neck because something they said had cleared, never delivered, and it's been lost and they haven't got the master.

385

And you know, it's all gone wrong.

386

So all your peers are also hearing the same negative voice that I think that fees

387

Master.

388

And what does it cost to, to be supportive and positive in the right places?

389

Right?

390

It costs nothing and it means everything.

391

And especially when you're moving around as a freelancer, thankly all the time.

392

I, I can remember the people who, who genuinely took the time to thank me, um, after a difficult project or after something that had gone wrong.

393

Um, and, you know, stayed in touch with them and always wanted to work with them again.

394

And then I can certainly remember the people who were really not supportive and were a nightmare and dented my confidence because I, to this day, I wouldn't, I wouldn't work with them again even if they offered me an amazing project.

395

So I do think it's, you know, you have to be careful and respectful, um, on your way around.

396

I mean, what about as, as a, as a boss, when you're leading a, a project, whether that's as a director I suppose, or as an exec and you're sort of in a position of power, does it feel lonely?

397

Uh, I think in those positions you've got some things that people are, you know, there's, there's things that people are aware of you and how you're doing.

398

And have you, you know, sorry guys, I know you had to work late, you know, are you okay with the notes when you are on holiday?

399

People are very aware of you.

400

And at the same time you are aware that other team members, people haven't noticed that they're not on an email or that they're, um, that they're on holiday.

401

And you know, some people are like messaging going, why aren't you replying?

402

They're like, I'm on holiday.

403

You know, you, you can, you can be aware that you can stand out and suddenly become important.

404

And visually people know your presence on a film.

405

And I think sometimes you can feel guilty about that because you remember what it was like when nobody gave two hoots about the fact you were on your 16 day in a row.

406

You're like, guys really need a day off.

407

And they're like, really?

408

When did you have you not had a day off?

409

Um, I think those, those roles, uh, uh, so I think this not lonely as such.

410

I think you're aware that you are treated differently and as you're treated differently, you didn't make yourself get treated differently.

411

You're just aware that you're treated differently or aware that people want to sit down and have conversations with you at the table and other people can't join the meeting and then they just, they get an update and you're like, hold on, that AP is just as involved as me.

412

They've met the contributor.

413

I'm, I'm third hand information, you know, I can't the AP come to the meeting or that.

414

There's moments like that where you're aware that some people are around the cold and you've suddenly got the seat.

415

So I don't feel lonely.

416

I sometimes feel a sense of, I dunno if it's shame or guilt, that suddenly I'm in the seat and I can still see people out in the cold.

417

So I still, I do, I feel separate from that than theirs Where, you know, at the wrap party there's this real sense of every, they've had a different lived experience where everyone's like, you know, comparing war stories and you can't join that because you were treated differently.

418

Right?

419

So,

420

Um, so is there almost a sense that you're, you're kind of put on a bit of a pedestal?

421

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say definitely.

422

You know, there's like no one like laying out a red carpet and saying, can I get you your coffee ?

423

But there's you, I just think you feel seen by the time you're the director.

424

I think you feel seen.

425

And I don't think as a woman in tv, I felt seen until I was the director.

426

Um, and I think feeling seen is nice when finally you're seen, but then you also have to remember what it was like before you were seen.

427

And I'm not gonna pretend like I'm the perfect boss in any way right now.

428

I'm sure if someone was listen, there'd be like the edit system being like, ha she only came in and spoke to me three times.

429

I didn't get very seen in her.

430

So that's definitely like, practice what you preach, know what you need to do better.

431

And I think, um, when you get really busy and when there's a lot on, it's very easy to only be in your bubble with like you and your editor and maybe you're exec and then I'm probably guilty of, yeah, in fact, you're not slight therapy.

432

I'm probably guilty of that.

433

I think as it gets tougher, I can end up in a smaller, a smaller bubble and then you ha you can't forget your whole wider team that are making this with you

434

Coming

435

Up.

436

If you don't feel someone's gonna attach you to a film, get a film and attach yourself to it.

437

Like, I came in packaged inside an idea and I made the idea so appealing that I'm like, sorry, I come with it .

438

So that was my emo that's how I did it.

439

The Imposter Club podcast is to help you feel less alone, go and share it with someone you know who'd benefit.

440

Now back to the chat.

441

So, you know, you said you carry around other things in this backpack of mixed emotions Yeah.

442

Of being a creative person in the TV industry.

443

What, what other things do you beat yourself up about then?

444

I think I beat myself up about being a rollover, like a pushover and absolutely, I was such a mug I think when I started and I, I now, I just wanna shake that 20 something year old, uh, year old and just be like, why?

445

Like, you were just so wet.

446

I was so worried about like, people not hiring you again or just wanting them to like me and being like, okay, yes, you can have my idea.

447

No, are you and you want to make me the researcher on it?

448

Okay.

449

Oh, you, I'm only gonna be the ap.

450

Oh, I, I shot and asked the questions.

451

Okay, I'll be the producer.

452

Like there was just accepting, kind of just being happy to be in the room almost and not realizing what, now looking back like what I was doing and the credits that I would've been giving out now for those roles or how it recognized I would've made some members of the team.

453

Um, I dunno, I feel a bit like, I dunno what happened.

454

I dunno how, I dunno how it happened actually.

455

I just feel like maybe some, sometimes people take your kindness for weakness and I think you can get exploited if you, if you keep your head down, you do a good job and then you can watch other people, um, go off.

456

Like, you know, I'd have ideas that get commissioned that were given to other directors because they'd had an extra film and then you could be their producer or you could be their ap.

457

You're quite capable of making that film.

458

And I don't think that would happen now.

459

And that is what's good.

460

I think that's changed, like as a, you know, there's much more focus on, you know, hiring female directors or, you know, diverse hires.

461

And I think that that's so important because I used to have to fight for my place to film a birth film and I was like, hold on, I'm filming a, a documentary about a lady in her living room giving birth, and it's just her and her husband.

462

I think they probably prefer a female day.

463

Those things just weren't a given.

464

Whereas if you are, you know, gonna be filming bare grills, you were gonna be, that was just a given that it was gonna be a male director.

465

Okay.

466

So I just think, so perhaps

467

Some of the stereotypes that existed mm-hmm.

468

, what, 15 years ago are, are you, you, you think are no longer existent or at least are much better?

469

I think it's changing.

470

I don't think it's there yet, but I think there is an onus.

471

Everyone's aware whether they agree or not, or whether they think is a mistake or a, you know, there'll definitely be old school people that are doing the higher thinking, Ugh, this is a tick box.

472

Oh, why have we hired this person?

473

We're only doing it to because the channel one or because we're supposed to, but they, they have a preferred hire or they think there should be a guy director or they think there should be this person or you know, that they have an opinion separate to who's being hired.

474

But all that needs to happen is the door needs to open.

475

And then once you've got the opportunity, you can prove yourself.

476

But if the door's firmly shut, then you can, you know, how do you ever get the opportunity to prove that you are capable?

477

Yeah.

478

So I don't think when people think about the don mess hiring in any form that people think like, oh, it's just a, it's just a token hire.

479

It, it's not about that.

480

It's about, like I said, it's about opening the door to an opportunity and then that person would lose their job quite quickly if they can't deliver.

481

Like, you know, you're replaced, you're just basically saying, here's your moment and everyone needs that moment.

482

Everyone needs the door to open it whichever way you can get that to happen.

483

Like knock on the door, bash on the door, pick, lock the door, whatever you've gotta do, like get in that door and, and then it's up to you.

484

Then you, then you're, you know, in charge of your own destiny, in charge of your own career.

485

But it's, it's the higher the, the focus on the hire is important because it, it just suddenly means everyone's got the opportunity to prove themselves.

486

Yes.

487

Do you remember there being a kind of light bulb moment of you thinking, hold on, I am being a pushover here.

488

I'm gonna have to get a bit feisty or a bit um, a bit more assertive to progress?

489

Yeah, there's a bit that I can't really talk about the exact film because obviously it ruffles some feathers, but there's been films or one or two times where I've had a few things that I have developed, secured the access, come up with it's been pitched ready to go, then it is taken from you 'cause your staff and oh, we've got someone better you in this.

490

And I could see again, it's like, it's, as I was saying there before, it's risk adverse.

491

It's, it's, it's all those reasons, but at the same time you're like, if you're always gonna say, okay, oh, all right, yeah, yeah, that makes sense for the good, for the good of the company, for the good that you have to then say like, how often am I gonna say no?

492

No.

493

And how many other directors had I been around where I'd watch them argue about credits or argue about, uh, their role or what was expected or the hours they worked, I could see people standing up for themselves and it was like, yeah, you do that and I didn't do it for myself.

494

And I think you do, you know what, at the same time, I think it was only because I got burnt a few times on other films where I'd watched, you know, films that I've now not made and I've developed and was ready to direct and I didn't, that I probably fought to make American murder.

495

So eventually I felt, I felt that was a very like, cathartic experience to then make that it meant so much because it was a story I believed in and I could have easily when they said, or you know, other people that I could have been like, do you know what, yeah, I'll exec this, this is, this is great.

496

I'll direct the next one.

497

Like, I'm sure this, you know, this isn't right for me.

498

And that makes total sense that actually I had the fighting spirit from learned experience that at the time it just feels like a real, you know, carrying that emotional burden of being like, God, I've, I've hindered my own career by not being standing up for myself enough.

499

But then later you realize it's put you in exactly the right position in the right fighting mode to fight for what really counts.

500

And I think had I got the others, maybe I, well had I got the others, maybe they wouldn't be asking you if I could have directed with, they like, yeah, of course you're gonna direct maybe, um, ,

501

But I get it.

502

It's like, you are, yeah, you, you may have only got that the, the per, you know, the perfect role for you that did what it did for your career and your own personal, you know, development because you'd been burnt before.

503

I mean, have you got, do you have advice for people who are feeling like you did back then now?

504

Yeah, I say just look for opportunity.

505

There's opportunities every in lots of places that obviously I know difficult time in, in the industry right now.

506

Um, but there are lots of initiatives around, there's lot.

507

When I, I was just on one at the minute, uh, recently there was a Netflix documentary fund, um, for shorts.

508

So I, I did like the first cut strand.

509

I did the Fresh Strand for B, B C, like for first time directors.

510

Like I joined as many and entered as many of those initiatives to get the, and those are great.

511

It's looking for the training schemes, it's looking for like going, you know, sometimes Sony will do a free, like camera training session or you know, subsidized or there's one to watch schemes or there's going to Sheffield or Edinburgh.

512

Like there's things that you can get on and mingle and mix and that's networking.

513

It's going, yeah, I think just being hungry for it and going on those schemes is, is, uh, is worthwhile.

514

But I think if you, if you, for me, the advice would be if you don't feel someone's gonna attach you to a film, get a film and attach yourself to it and then come as a package.

515

And I think that was my, that was like my Trojan horse.

516

Like I came in packaged inside an idea and I made the idea so appealing that I'm like, sorry, I come with it .

517

So I felt that was my, that was my emo that's how I did it.

518

Force their hand

519

By dangling the most amazing access and idea.

520

And it's only to be made with you.

521

You just have to, yeah.

522

So I think there's, like Jamie for example, Jamie Drag queen, he came to the, he emailed the company and they did say, I'll go offer you a taste to tape with him.

523

Like I didn't force my way into that story.

524

But I would also say that his story wasn't resonating, I would say massively with anyone in the industry at that time.

525

I know he'd emailed lots of, in lots of, um, indies and I wanted even reply to him and it was always gonna be like a BBC three type documentary.

526

But I think for that one it was about, um, being like, if I'm gonna tell this story, I'm gonna know everything about it.

527

And I, I did not stop thinking about that film.

528

Like I was that I made that in like three parts, like off and on.

529

'cause I was making, um, gypsy weddings at the same time.

530

So I'd go off and film a bit of gypsy weddings, wait for small weddings to come by, and then we'd go off and do another stint on Jamie because it happened over like a six month period, a five month period before the edit.

531

And I think just constantly, I kept talking to um, Laura Ellings, she was the researcher on that.

532

I just can't see, like, discussing his story and his themes and the more we fleshed out could have been such a surface level story.

533

So thin.

534

I think if you really care about a project or a story, just like, I think you have to live and breathe it.

535

I think not like, I don't, I'm not saying like lose your work-life balance, I'm just saying like enjoy that subject, enjoy talking about it, be hungry to know more about it.

536

And that will come through in the film.

537

The more and more I experience, you know, both the hiring side and you know, working within the creative industry, the more I think it is like 90% to do with attitude of the right person.

538

Because I would always rather hire someone who's got ingredients on their CV to the right thing or you know, obviously a certain level of skill set to perform the job that you're considering them for.

539

But if they don't have the right personality, grit, determination, hunger, you won't get the film that you want.

540

You won't get the results that you want.

541

And it comes across like you say, and actually I think there's no excuse these days for God, I sound like a pretty old person when you say these days, these

542

Days, these kids these days, these days.

543

Oh my God.

544

But there really isn't any excuse for not doing your research and actually not hustling to an extent because you can shoot stuff on your phone, you can mess, you can contact pretty much anyone now via social media.

545

Um, just you can find them so much easier than when you and I were probably embarrassingly still flicking through like a phone before Yellow Pages.

546

It's called pub used to call the pubs.

547

Do you have me too?

548

A clientele that comes in who has a jog?

549

Uh, we're looking for people do .

550

God, how,

551

Honestly, that's what I did.

552

Yeah, I was, um, I was an AP on wife swap and I used to um, ring pubs or um, hairdresser

553

Shops,

554

Hairdressers.

555

They were pretty good.

556

Hairdressers are great.

557

Oh, I know someone who'd be

558

Great always tells me their life

559

Story.

560

Yeah, Ruth

561

Do that.

562

She's in on Tuesday days

563

.

564

Exactly.

565

Perfect.

566

Loved it.

567

But like, like you, you were doing, you were hustling and finding access and developing stuff along the side, trying to also juggle life.

568

I know, but there is a lot of opportunity there now and I know it is really hard to, to do that, um, alongside a job or even when you're not working and you don't have any money at all.

569

But there are ways means to make yourself visible, I think.

570

Um, yeah,

571

I think that the hunger for it, I'm not saying like everyone needs to become a workaholic.

572

And I would say I definitely know I have got absolutely appalling work-life balance.

573

It's the number, like it's the number one thing I need to totally work on and I don't know how to work on that.

574

And I'm gonna need to, I dunno, figure that out over the next year.

575

'cause it's not sustainable.

576

Call a

577

Real therapist.

578

Yeah.

579

Not me,

580

Dr.

581

Kimberly.

582

I need to sort this out.

583

, I just, I I need to work on it because you can't live it.

584

You can't work in that gear all the time and you can't, and like I was saying, it's the other voices that come in.

585

Is it imposter syndrome or is it actually more like now you found your seat at the table, now you've raised your own bar, now you're like, oh shit, the expectations have got higher.

586

The quality of my work has to be up there and I, I now have to keep, I have to keep rising to the challenge and like Right.

587

Proving myself on a different level, proving

588

Myself.

589

Yeah.

590

And I, I feel like that can result in like insane hours and, um, yeah, just hard grafted again, and I, it's not like I'm saying like, Hey, I'd like to coast for a while.

591

I'm just saying like, I just need to No, look at that.

592

It's just the lady lady going off on holiday tomorrow.

593

I mean, let's not feel sorry for you.

594

Yeah, fair enough.

595

But no, even the fact that you've had to sort of justify, not that I'm saying I want to coast, right?

596

Yeah.

597

Isn't that interesting?

598

Yeah.

599

All you are saying is you need to be able to have some life outside of work and know and be able to reign it in and back appropriately, flexibly for the right thing at the right moment.

600

Yeah, but you've gone, I don't, it just doesn't mean that I can't Yeah.

601

Work really hard.

602

It, it's in it's inherent.

603

I think it's still burnt into that you're only as good as your last credit thing, right?

604

There's

605

Something about, I think it's early, like, oh, constantly trying to prove yourself and be heard and be seen that then when you are, you can't stop that fight.

606

And again, it's not about coasting, it's now about saying right now I've, uh, now I can just exist in this space.

607

You still, you can't take off those boxing gloves.

608

You can't stop that fight and need to be seen, heard and prove yourself and that stays with you.

609

And that that desire to keep fighting and keep showing and proving your worth.

610

Um, I think 'cause it starts so early at the beginning of your career, when do you take that off and just say, okay, now I'm, now I'm just, I'm in the pit with everybody else and I'm the same as everyone else.

611

Like you don't, I think you keep that attitude and it's really hard to step away from it because I think it's counterproductive and it leads to like being a workaholic and it leads to like mental health issues and that inner voice, which is sometimes coined as imposter syndrome.

612

And it's not just the imposter syndrome.

613

It, that's just one of many voices that Yeah.

614

Are actually instead just baggage from past experience way.

615

It's more about self-esteem and taking it, any kind of feedback is criticism because you are your own critic, you're us critic.

616

But I think it's, yeah, it's exhaustion.

617

It is exhausting having to think like that all the time.

618

And you need to stop that because look at what you've done in your career and you're doing other brilliant stuff I know that, you know, you can't tell me about.

619

But, um, I'm, I'm really thankful for you being so open about about this because I do think it's very easy for, for people who are still making it in their career or trying to carve their way up to assume that getting to the point of directing a huge streamer doc is easy, or at least maybe it wasn't easy doing it, but you got there in a way that was, I dunno, somehow otherwise easier than what people are experiencing now.

620

So I'm so grateful for you being really honest about the juggle and the burnout and the imposter syndrome, plus rucksack of other emotions.

621

So thank you.

622

Yeah, very much Jenny for being part of the imposter club.

623

You have a, you have a big warm hug from us all because none of us really know what we're doing, do we ?

624

I mean, do we thank you for having me.

625

It felt like a therapy session.

626

I've enjoyed it.

627

Thanks.

628

That's it for this episode of The Imposter Club, brought to you by talented people.

629

I'm Kimberly Godbolt and it has been lovely to hang out with you while you commute slash gym slash dog walk or whatever you're doing.

630

If this has struck a chord, please go ahead and share it with your friends in that closed WhatsApp group, I'm not in or on your social networks.

631

Our aim is to reach as many fellow imposters as we can to share love and learnings and create a sense of belonging.

632

And if you haven't already, follow or subscribe to the Pod so you don't miss an episode drop.

633

Thank you to talented people.

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Produced and hosted by me, Kimberly Godbolt, exec producer Rosie Turner, editor Ben Mullins.

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See you later.