Mackenzie Melo returns to Spiritist Conversations to discuss a concept that is often misunderstood in Spiritism: "Umbral."

What is "umbral", anyway? What are these spiritual zones, and what do they have to do with us?

Join Flavio, Suzana, and Dan for another Spiritist Conversations!

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For a bonus read, visit Dan's blog to read "What is Umbral Anyway?"

Hello everyone and welcome to Spiritist Conversations, a show where we

get together with friends to talk about the world through a Spiritist's lens in

an unplugged, unscripted, and fun way.

I'm your host, Dan Assisi, and I'm joined here today by my very

friendly and smart co hosts, Susana Simões and Flavio Zanetti.

How are you guys doing?

Doing very well, Dan.

Hello to you and to Flavio.

Good to be with you guys again.

Doing well here too, guys.

It's so great to see you both.

And looking forward to, yeah, another 30th Conversations.

That's right.

It's been a cool minute.

We have not been able to get together.

Lots of different scheduling issues as we gather from different parts of this

great United States of America from the West Coast to the East Coast up and down.

Just great to be here with you guys again.

And today we have a good show, guys.

We're going to talk about one of the topics that comes up all the

time in spiritism, especially for those who are learning spiritism.

And it's a little bit sometimes of confusing for some folks, um,

brow that does not roll out of the tongue, the tip of your tongue.

Does it?

Um, brow.

Yeah, not quite.

Not quite.

Yeah, not quite.

Yeah.

Continue your excitement, Flavio.

We don't want you to be all bubbly and happy here today on the show.

And who are we bringing here to be with us today to talk about this, Flavio?

We're bringing a very, expert, so to speak, from the topic.

It's a very dear friend of mine here from the great Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

Mr.

Mello is here with us again.

Welcome, Mr.

Mello.

Hello, Flavio.

Hello, Dan.

Hello, Susana.

I'm glad I'm back and hopefully we were able to find a good time for

us to be together in different time zones, some of us, but all together

at the same time, at the same moment.

So, Mackenzie.

Tell us, what kind of experience do you have about, you know, with Umbrao?

Flavio told us that you were very experienced.

What does that mean?

I have, I have a few good friends, uh, at, at, at that zone.

And, uh, sometimes we, we manage to get together.

It's kind of hard to get together with all of them at the same moment.

But sometimes we are, uh, we manage to do so.

Some of them, travel far away, you know, go to Italy.

Some of them go to the UK.

Most of us, you know, stay here in the U.

S.

Right, Susanna.

But all of us, you know,

I see what you're doing there, sir.

I see,

but it's really great to have you here.

It's been a while since you've been with us on the show.

But then again, it's been a while since we had a show, too.

So, you know, you fit right in.

Thanks for making the time and Can I just say how exciting it is to be

here with all of you guys one more time, have a chance to be able to talk

about things that are, that speaks to, to, to our hearts and to our minds.

And I know there's some viewers popping in as well from different places.

Want to say hello to, to Paula from Indiana, for instance, that's dropping in.

And so very exciting.

So, but let's not wait that much, right?

Cause that's not our thing.

We just jump into things.

What is Umbra?

Why don't you take a stab at it?

Susana opened up her mouth, so I think she wants to jump in.

She moved, she moved, she definitely moved.

Or at least, Susana, how about this?

What do people think it is, and why is it important that we talk about it?

Some

purgatorial zone.

I think that's the first association that people have when they think of

ngā is the purgatory of spiritism.

So, won't you, won't you agree with that?

That's why we, we have Susana start these things.

She goes right in with the, with the big words, with the big concepts, I

think is a great way of putting it.

I think a lot of people say, Oh, um, brow and spiritism is like purgatory.

And, and then I think that's a conversation that we, we should be had,

but I think we can say that umbrella was never really used in a happy context.

Right.

It's not like, Hey, you know, when I pass from my physical

body, I am looking forward.

To go into umbrella said no one ever

right, but I want to be.

I want to be a devil's advocate already.

That's my role here.

As you guys know, you know, we always, we always have these conversations

and I like to play many poke holes on some of the definitions.

Yes, I've heard that before.

Their umbrella is like a purgatory.

But if I wanted to maybe double click on that, Purgatory has we, you

know, folks, you know, from different traditions, Purgatory is a place that

you go that you don't really qualify for the quote unquote heaven, but

you don't qualify for hell either.

So you go to Purgatory and they go there forever.

Is Umbrella the same approach?

Do we go to Umbrella forever?

My understanding is a little different.

Who wants to

tackle that?

Yes.

Yes, yes.

Are you saying that, um, brow is the bureaucratic office of the afterlife

where, you know, your process gets stuck there and you never leave

Well, uh, um, brow it is kind of, it's kind of funny that, uh,

the way we think about, um, brow and, uh, the way we in, uh, in Spiritism.

Talk about it, right?

Because, um, a a lot of us, you know, joke that we are going there or we

are, uh, gonna be stationed there for a while and then we move on.

And, um, independently I think that where we are going to or where we, we might

end up in, uh, we all have independently of religion, we all have the same

kind of idea that everybody one day.

Will be in a place where they don't like to be, but they are there because

of stuff that they did in the past of the of what they did in their lives.

And then once we grow up, and once we mature mentally,

physically, spiritually, um.

Psychologically, we can, we can all understand that, uh, there will be a

moment in time where we will be suffering because of stuff that we did or because

of something that happened to me and then I'm there and I'm kind of stuck and for

us to get unstuck from that place, we have to actually do something to move on from

that place and, um Despite what Flavius said, my, my understanding, and I'm not

an expert, uh, but my understanding was that purgatory is not an eternal thing,

differently than, uh, heaven and hell.

Purgatory, to me, and I, I was never a Catholic, but, uh, on my conversations

with some folks, uh, we, I always had that idea that it's, and maybe that's

why we, we always tend to think of umbra as if it's a purgatory, because.

Once you're in purgatory, and the word itself kind of, uh, implies

that, that you're there to purge.

You're there to remove from you something that should not be there.

So from there, there's only one way.

It's one way up.

You may stay there for a very long time.

Don't get me wrong.

Uh, it, but it's not supposed to be eternal.

So it's not as bad as hell.

But it's not, of course, not even close to be good as, as heaven,

although I have to say that I had, I have some friends that would rather

stay forever in purgatory that going to, to, to heaven, to have harps and

angels all around them all the time.

So it's kind of, it's kind of, uh, you know, talking about Umbra, we

have to talk about the edges as well.

Otherwise.

I don't, uh, you know, it's, it's, uh, and, and maybe we'll get into the

definition of the word, but the word umbrao, it actually refers to like a

passage from one state to the other.

So, yeah, but I already spoke too much.

Go ahead.

No,

we're not here to talk about purgatory, but it's, it's

important to mention that purgatory was not originally in the scriptures.

It was actually introduced, I believe in the 11th century.

If I'm not mistaken.

As a new concept, because folks were like, Hey, I'm not good enough,

but I'm not bad, you know, either.

Where do I go?

And they started questioning and challenging the, uh, of the, the

clericals, you know, from that time.

That's when the quote, unquote, but came up with the definition of purgatory.

Uh, but to your point, right, uh, Mackenzie, it's, uh, it, it, it,

it's not, it's not, you know, uh, in a way, something that, you know, we

talk a lot, you know, in Spiritism.

We use a lot of the definition of Umbra because.

That's what we learned from the books that we study that I mean, I'm

sure folks have read or watched the movie Nostelar, which in our home,

which has a great demonstration of where Andrew Lewis stays in Umbra for

eight years until something happens.

I think this is the pivotal moment, right?

Do we get to leave when we get there?

What makes us be able to leave?

If we encounter ourselves there?

Oh my god, you guys are so smart.

I don't even need to, like, do anything.

Why am I in this podcast?

I should just listen to you guys.

Somebody has to turn the lights on, I guess.

Somebody, yeah, that's my job, right here.

Um, I love that you mentioned, I love that you mentioned, uh, Nosolar, which

sometimes is referred to in Astral City, as Astral City, the book, too.

Some translations will do it differently.

Um, but as a matter of fact, Flavio, I think that the first time that

we see the word Mrow, as far as I know in Spiritism is in that book.

Um, and it was published in 1944, so that is, you know, almost a hundred years ago

and was really an iconic book, I think in Spiritism that many people refer to.

And I think in spirituality in general, if you think about it, because it's

a, he's a first person narrative of, of this person, this person called

Andrea Lewis, right, who passed.

over to the other side and found himself in not so great places, Umbrao, and

then that's his journey out, right, of spiritual purgatory, so to speak, and,

and, and there are other books in our history of our human history that sort of

are similar in nature, but I think none of them has, have ever been as detailed,

so if you have not read the book or there's a movie too now, right, there

might be a reading recommendations there for, for, for, for us who are reading or,

I'm sorry, listening or watching this.

But I think your point is really great because the word Umbral pops up in that

book and that's when we first see that.

And I think a lot of people when they read that, the first parts of the

book, there's a lot of suffering.

He's going through a lot of challenges there, figuring out what's happening.

And I think that's where that idea that Umbral is a negative thing stuck.

But I also love that you were talking about the origin of

the word and everything else.

So it makes sense that we would think about this and it makes sense that we

also equate it to purgatory, right?

Because in many different ways, if we define purgatory as a temporary

place to be for us to kind of sync up or readjust or realign, right?

Or re filter, re balance, whatever it is that you want to call.

I'm sure you will find a word much smarter than the ones I'm using.

Uh, then it kind of makes sense to equate both of them together.

One of the things that I really like, um, that, um,

Mackenzie, um, said is that it's hard to, You speak about the idea of umbrao

without also considering, um, the idea of, uh, hell and, and heaven.

And I would say in general, the idea of what happens to the soul once it's outside

of the spirit, the physical body, right?

So...

Where do we go and what determines where we go and what composes,

what is the composition?

What are those places made off?

So I think there are a lot of questions that can't be answered for which we have,

uh, Some, um, explanations in Spiritism, and I think that this is one of the

greatest services that Spiritism does, which is to actually explain some of the

loss and the, um, the, the life after death with a little bit more of specifics

than these very general and sometimes even abstract ideas of what the afterlife is.

So, you know, I just want to put that, I can't go on, but I don't wanna,

um, you know, just keep talking.

So, maybe one of you want to, um, share a little bit about what is the

spiritual concept of what happens after we, uh, leave our physical body.

What determines the place that we go and what is this place made of after all?

Yeah.

One other thing that I, um, that I, before maybe we go that far.

Is, uh, we also think, uh, when that's

the starting line.

What do you mean that far?

? Mackenzie Melo: Yeah.

. Um, yeah, I think I'm a, I'm a slug, so I'm moving very, very slowly.

, so.

Is that also because when we talk about we are going to, we talk about a place

like you just said, and that's right.

Right.

That's very interesting to think about because, you know, like Dan said, and,

and, and, and, well, all of us said, um, when Andrea Luis talks about this,

he's at, he's in or he's on, but he's at a place, he's somewhere he exists.

Mm-hmm.

. He doesn't have his body, but he exists and he's somewhere so, What is this

somewhere or where is this somewhere and is, is it, and the question ends

up being, is it the place that makes it be an umbrao or is it, or is it

not a place that makes it an umbrao?

Is it something that's inside of me or is it really a physical place?

And to this, I mean, we could go on and on and on, but one thing that I like to

think about is, uh, uh, Independently of if it is a place or if it is a

state of mind, a state of soul, um, we would have to have a name for either

for this state or for this place or for this situation that we are in.

And I love when Kardec, he doesn't talk about Umbra, but I love when

Kardec, at the beginning of, um, the Spirit's Book, when he talks

about the world, the word, uh, soul.

Right.

And he says something that to me is very, very sane.

He says at one point, even if there was no soul, even if the soul was just

something that was made up by a human mind, we would have to have a name for it.

Because we have to have names for things that we think about, so that

we can refer to that thing when we are talking about that thing.

Be it a real thing, or be it not a real thing.

Umbral, in that sense, to me, is something that's, it's more like this world,

this word, or this concept, this idea.

for us to, to, uh, pedagogically or educationally talk about something that

we will always, or we will not always, but we will live and we are going to

live and maybe we are living right now.

So it's not necessarily a place.

And we know that because even, uh, in, uh, Andre Luis, when he is talking about

that, and when he is kind of Saved or taken from there or, uh, rescued as

the word I think that he uses there.

He says that there were other people around him that he could not see it.

So they were both at the same place, but he could not see or

feel the other ones because he was just in a different vibration.

He was as if, um, he was, uh, an ultra violet and the other

person, the other spirit was like.

Uh, and on the visible spectrum, so we could not see it.

There are there are waves and different types of light passing through us

right now that we cannot see it.

We can feel it sometimes when it's too hot.

And we can feel those hot waves or cold waves, but we cannot see it.

So it's kind of the same idea.

So this idea of umbrao, and I'm sorry, and I apologize if I'm, I'm broadened

this up too much, but this idea of umbrao to me is, is, uh, uh, It's to

me, it's not a place to me personally, it's not a place, but it's, it is what

we make of the place where we are.

It is what we feel where we are.

Although there is a place for that, but some people there are in a

hospital, for example, although they might be, or they are physically in a

hospital, but some of them are doctors.

So they are not suffering.

So being in Umbrao on the other, you know, even if it's a place, it's not necessarily

because I belong to that place.

Or as if I, uh, I am, I suffered or I did something wrong to be there.

No, maybe I chose to be there.

Maybe I want to be there to help other people.

So it's kind of a complex idea.

Uh, and I just wanted to throw this, this

out to you.

I love that.

And I would actually say that, you know, the way I look at

it, it's not dissimilar at all.

And I think it's sort of both for me.

It's a state of mind.

And a region.

And to go back to, I think what Susanna was teeing us up for,

which is really great too, is, you know, from our perspective, We know

that we have this essence of who we are, which we call our spirit.

And we all know this is one certainty in life, right?

Benjamin Franklin, death and taxes, this body will fail.

Fail and falter at one point in time and I will die.

Right?

It's, it's sometimes unfortunate for us to think about this.

It causes people consternation.

They get worried about it, but it's one certainty that we do have and we

don't talk that often about it, right?

And in that moment, Religions in general have also promised us that there is an

afterlife, but nobody has really been able to fully assert and say, Hey,

this is what's going to happen to you.

And I think that's really a great value of spiritism that we dive a little bit

into that space because we actually can't tell you a little bit of what's

going to happen to you because we with the with the learning mediumship.

As we have, you know, done, and this is kind of the origin of Spiritism.

We have actually been gathering reports from people on the other side.

And so they're actually telling us firsthand, such as Andrea Luis in

this book, what it could look like.

And we have learned a couple of things.

And one of those things is that our mental attitude, uh, our worldview,

our experiences, the way we see and think the Word are important.

And that carries with us...

When we pass to the other side, we may leave the physical body.

I may not look the same and I hope I don't, but when I get

there, what I have done and how I think will not be the similar.

And you know, because there's a law of attraction, like attracts, like

I will likely be gravitated or hang out with people who are just like

me, because that's what happens.

And in this particular case, if my worldviews, if my attitudes

and habits are not as healthy, or if they're really materialistic.

I will be attracted to people that are on the same scale.

And if I'm not aware, for instance, that I have passed away, or that I

even believe in spirituality, which is quite common, I might be attracted to

regions with other people that think the same way, and that might be difficult.

And so, I do think that it is a mental state of mind, in which

the way I think will dictate...

Like if I'm happy or not, but because I think a certain way in the spirit

realm without a physical body, the law of attraction will work even in a

greater fashion and will bring people together and they will create these

regions, these locales where spirits that are happy or not so happy hang out.

Now, having said that, I think that there's not just one place where we

could say, Oh, that's a purgatorial or whatever the zone, right?

And it's obviously not forever because where's the justice in that, right?

We can, we can improve.

And what I think is really cool too.

Yeah, go ahead.

No, in the law of progress.

So where is justice in the law of progress?

So we are always progressing.

So, um, no, I was just going to add that to what you're saying.

I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Oh, no, not at all.

Please, please do.

That's what we do best, right?

And so I think that your point, my kids is really great because we need to look

at it as a state of mind in a place.

If we think it of just a place, He almost sends a message that we

have very little control over it, or there's just a geographic scape.

I'm just going to walk far enough and get out of there, right?

Or I'm going to wait for somebody to do something.

It's definitely something that is within our ability to do.

Now, at the same time, I think what you're saying was really

cool, Mackenzie, because there is a certain relativity to Umbrao, right?

Because it could be that what is Umbrao for you is heaven to me, right?

I can have such a...

Perspective or life or behavior in this world that is so unhealthy that hurts

me spiritually speaking that when I go to the other side What you think is

struggling is a blessing for me, right?

Because you are so far higher or more developed than I am that that you

know What will be really difficult and unpleasant for you might be like something

that's really incredible for me, right?

So there is this degree of relativity relativity That's important for us to

consider and know that there is not just one, you know, that's why I think

that the concept of heaven and hell is, are, are so, I don't want to use

the word antiquated because I think that would be like belittling it,

belittling it, but like, so inept, right?

Because we evolve,

you know, and also limiting,

limiting,

you guys are touching on something very important because I

also believe that Umbrao is not like a physical place, one, two, three,

you know, main street, whatever.

I mean.

It's not a physical location per se, but it's not all, it's

not only a materialization.

It's not only a creation of our minds that connect us with other spirits, right?

I mean, I think it's, it's a combination of the two.

It is a temporary space or temporary place, as we learned from the

book, from the book Now Solar.

Because there are, you know, as we call these spiritual colonies.

And others, right?

And, and other, sorry, and other books too, right?

Other books, yeah, I was going to get there.

So in other books, but this was the first time we, we look, we hear,

or we learn, uh, this concept.

And also, to Mackenzie's point, I personally believe it's a mistake

to believe that only spirits of, uh, like lower, you know,

development ended up going to Umbra.

I mean, as we learned from the book, Andrew Lewis ended up going

there, you guys remember, right?

Because of his.

self destructive behaviors.

He was even called suicidal by many, many spirits when he was there.

He had addictions.

Thanks to his addictions, when he gets there, and he's asking himself, why

are these folks calling me suicidal?

I didn't kill myself.

Why is that happening?

That's the, a lot of folks that read the book without paying attention,

get confused from that, that passage, because why are they calling me suicidal?

I'm not, you know, really taking my life.

It's effective.

He didn't really take care of this instrument that God gives us, our bodies,

actually ended up putting him there.

Well, I, can I add some things?

Um, I, I agree.

I agree with you guys in the sense that, um, it's, it's, it's both.

That's how I think of it.

Um, so one of the things that I usually like to, to kind of put to

people to help them to understand is that you don't have to be outside

of the body to be experiencing hell, heaven, or purgatory, right?

So we, we, we are in a mental.

space right now, each one of us that, you know, it can be

many shades of gray, right?

It's not like we, we, we, we have these three areas.

So like you guys say, I mean, the human condition is, uh, there's room

for a lot of different conditions, but whatever is your inner experience,

your mental experience today, if you were to die the next minute,

you would find yourself in the same.

mental space.

But what we have learned with Kardec is that we have, um, the universe is

filled with what we call this very primitive energy, um, that is the,

uh, universal cosmic fluid, right?

And I don't mean to make this, uh, too complicated, but think about it as the

more, most elementary matter that exists.

And we know that our thoughts are powerful.

The thoughts for the spirit are like the hands for the incarnate ones.

So whatever we're thinking, we are manipulating these, um,

these energy in the universe.

So it creates a zone.

It creates an area where the constructions are the results.

So if our in his thumper with his participation and he's back.

Yes.

If our, if our, our inner space and mind and psychic is tormented,

is taken by guilt, by darkness, by feelings of devaluation.

Um, sometimes, um, Some of us experience from time to time.

I'm not worth it anything.

I'm a monster I'm bad and all those thoughts that characterizes

where you are Mentally and that is going to manipulate the environment

Around you what is really really?

And what's really cool to think about this is that any dark environment is

only a temporary situation because again, it's mirroring the darkness

that we are temporarily in, but no one, no one will be forever in darkness.

And that's why there's no such a thing as being forever anywhere

because we're always evolving because our essence is light.

So the point that I'm trying to make it, yes, we create this.

Spaces and environments that are mirroring our inner state, but as we evolve, as

we progress, naturally, the, the, the, the environment starts to change because

our inner reality starts to change.

And before I pass it on to you guys, there's one, uh, passage on a book of

Andrew Lewis, that's not Astro City.

But where, uh, there's a dialogue of Andrew Lewis with one of his mentors

and, um, the, the, the mentor points out to Andrew Lewis, the most of the

souls that find themselves because the spirit is a super, super scared to end

up in a purgatory and what he highlights for what he highlights for, uh, Andrew

Lewis is that the majority of the spirits that were there were spirits who

knew better and they violate the laws.

consciously knowing that and were immersed in a lot of guilt.

And the guilt was, uh, very much correlated to the

knowledge that they have.

And it's interesting because he says, you know, the most primitive beings, because

we still have some in our planet are not in the purgatory or in the because

they didn't even have their awareness.

of the mistakes that were being committed.

So what puts you in a position of, you know, let's say, uh, conflict and

darkness is every time that we, uh, violate, that we break the law knowingly,

knowing that is what really disorganizes us and puts us in this Uh, position off

in darkness because, um, led by guilt

and exactly that, which we've seen also are there is a passage of

muscle are that I really like there's an instructor like, you know, more elevated

spirit who's guiding, uh, Andrew Lewis.

I think it's instructor lysis or lysis.

Depends on how you want to talk about it.

And it tells him that That umbra works as a region of removal for

foul mental residues, and I think it's exactly that piece like that.

We bring with us this energies that are created from for our actions because

our conscience speaks louder, right?

We all have that conscious in us, right?

And then we lose our physical body that becomes even more powerful.

And that becomes even more, uh, clamoring, clamors even more for attention.

And we cannot ignore that.

And the guilt and the regret and the feelings that we feel are more intense.

So we have to kind of deal with those and make sure, and it makes

sense that we have more of that if we were doing things conscientiously

that we should not be doing.

Uh, but the good news is exactly that.

It is a learning process.

Right.

It's something where we can kind of shed those illusions that those

residues that we have created energetically about ourselves and

that we can kind of move forward to to a new future because at the end of

the day, that's what we're here for.

We're here.

We were created to be happy.

And we to learn along the way, right?

So, so umbra in many ways is that threshold as the

word implies in Portuguese.

So this is an interesting piece.

I think Mackenzie alluded to in the beginning, right?

In English, the word umbra has a connotation of darkness and

shadow, but in Portuguese, where this work was originally published.

Like, the same word is really more about the doorway and the threshold of a door.

So it's really about an area of transition.

And I think all of us are going to have our umbrao.

That is, all of us are going to transition from the physical

body into the spiritual life.

It doesn't happen.

All of a sudden, there's an adaptation period, there's a detachment from

the physical body and a little bit of a period of confusion.

And in that process, we are going to be thinking a specific way until we

get a little bit more aware, right?

And aware of where we are spiritually and what we're going to do.

So all of us.

are going to go through our own umbrao, our own transition

into the spiritual life.

We just hope that it's going to be as pleasant and as short as possible.

Yeah, and that shortness, I think it's very much related to how

Even how we see time or how we actually see what's, what's going on.

Of course, it depends on what we are doing and how we are behaving and so on.

However, um, one idea is, um, that it depends on how, where we are

in a state of mind for changing.

If we are, and we say this all the time, or we hear, I hear

this, or I used to say this, you know, if you sit a minute on top.

Of an ant's nest it will last forever.

It doesn't matter if it's 30 seconds or in a or close to a

wasp's nest It will be crazy.

But if you spend like half an hour talking to friends one hour talking to

friends It looks like it just started and I just look at the clock, it's 34

minutes that we are here, but it would, so this thing just just flies by.

So our perception of time in our perception of where we are, it

really depends on how much we are.

We, uh, we are suffering while we are there.

So if we, if we look at our regrets or at our.

Uh, as Susana was saying is our guilt of what we did wrong because we knew we had

the knowledge and we didn't do it or, um, but we look at it from a perspective

of, okay, I didn't know better.

Or even if I knew, I thought I knew, but I didn't know because I did it again.

So I still have to learn.

But if I, if I start looking from this perspective, it will take

me out of there much quicker.

Even if I'm guilty, even if I really did something wrong.

Why?

Because now I'm telling myself, Oh, now I have to get ready to redo it.

I have to get ready to do it again, but do it correctly the next time.

So.

It is more of a, uh, I want to get out of here.

I need to get out of here, but not just because I want help from other people.

I need to get out of here and I want to do something to get out of here.

And I think that that's one of the main points.

Of what Andre Lewis does when he is in Umbrella, because it is a passage.

He knows that he's going to get out of there, but he doesn't know how to do it.

He doesn't, he, he, he's waiting for something to happen for a

very long time until he realizes that, Hey, I need to do something.

I cannot wait forever.

I have to be the one to learn.

Yeah, and then he prays and then he starts like focusing and he

prays for his mom and he says, Hey, someone, can someone come here?

I need to get out of here.

I don't know what to do.

So can come on.

And then he starts like doing something and all of a sudden.

Things clear up.

So it's from the inside.

It's not from the outside.

We tend to look at Clarence.

You coming to him and helping him getting out.

But actually, if he had not started, it would have not happened.

So that shows me that it is really like that transition.

And that period was eight years.

Why?

Because I don't know why.

It's, it depends on each person.

It depends on each spirit.

It depends on how much we are ready to, okay, look inside.

What do you have to do?

Is it a prayer?

Is it a meditation?

Is it, uh, looking at someone on the side and trying to help them

instead of just having, I want it for myself, I want it for myself.

So we are locking ourselves up.

And we are in darkness all the time.

But like Susana said, once we start to open it up to embrace.

It is as if we are opening up and letting that light that we are coming out.

And then all of a sudden what was darkness starts to become a little more clearer.

And then Clarencio, and I love the names of this, the names of people in this book.

It's one of the main things that I barely hear anybody talking about.

If you go and pay attention to all the names of basically all the characters,

they all have a very, very deep meaning.

Even the ones who don't have name, like, and I'm just going to do a

parenthesis here, like Andrea Luisa's mother, she doesn't have a name.

And to me, that is more sane than all the other names of the book.

She is what?

A mother.

That's it.

She is love, or the best way that we, or the, like, like Chico Xavier

used to say, of all the types of love that we have on earth.

Motherly love is the one that resembles the most the love of God for us.

So, to me, that's why André Luiz's mother is, is that, is André Luiz's mother.

It's just a mother.

So, coming back to him.

So, he's, Clarencio is the one that Maybe brings the light from the

outside, but Andrea Lewis was the one that opened it up with a prayer to

receive that light from the outside.

So, um, this, you know, you're on mute

to

mute it

again.

Don't go was barking.

So I kind of, yeah.

So, um, it's, um, I think what you're speaking about is,

um, the readiness for change.

Um, so sometimes, and this is for all of us, we, we say, I want something different

for myself, or I want, um, a different life, or I want a different situation,

and yet we, we say it, and we want it at a level, but not enough, not deep enough

to actually be able to, to transition.

To the new experience.

We

want it to be done for us, right?

A lot of

times, yes, a lot of times people will say, I want, but

I can't, and I don't understand why.

Because I want, yes, you want, your want is real.

It's just not solid.

It's just not stronger or deeper than whatever is holding you.

behind.

So a lot of times you will take a little bit more of, uh, staying at the

zone of struggle because the struggle will ultimately Uh, strengthen the

will, it will, uh, materialize in you the, the, the power that's missing

so that you can cross the threshold.

So when, what happened with Andrew Lewis and the time that he was

there was the time needed for him to get to that place of redness.

So the prayer was done and was heard because he was sincere because

he had arrived to a place within.

where he was truly, truly ready for something else.

And so he opens himself up and he finds the help that, by the way, had always

been available to him, as it is always available to all of us, waiting for us,

waiting for our readiness to connect.

To, uh, what is

already there.

And isn't that so like us in many different ways, right?

And sometimes in our lives we want to change, but we

don't want to change, right?

We want the change to happen or somebody else to do it, but we

don't take responsibility for it.

We see that perhaps we victimize ourselves a little bit, whatever it is.

We want somebody else to do the work and we don't want to, but we want to reap.

We want, yeah, we want to reap the benefits.

Right.

And so.

And I, I think I, I love that because I loved what we were saying here, because

I think those eight years that took him in Umbrao, it was the eight years that

it took him to fall back onto himself and realize that, uh, you know, he lended

himself there through his actions, his attitudes, his behaviors, and that he

needed help to get out of there, that he needed to let go of his old way of being.

And embrace a new one, even if he did not know what the new one was,

and that's what he asked for help.

And that's when help was given, because help will always be given, right, for

those who sincerely want to me, that's the

main teaching, um, because when I look at Andrew Lewis, right, he

was a, you know, he was a medical doctor.

He was a well off, you know, citizen.

He was a decent person.

Was he an angel?

Of course not.

He had some challenges like we all do, right?

But then when he sees himself there, he questions, Hey, why am I here?

What's going on?

I have no idea where I am.

And he's challenging that situation.

He's challenged, he's challenged with that situation, but he's

also challenging himself.

Why am I here?

And the whole eight years took him to reflect, well, imagine how much,

how many reflections or how much he had to reflect on that situation to

make him wake up for really to reach out to the greater, you know, good

that we have available to all of us.

I think this is a, this is a learning opportunity that we all have in

front of us that we have assistance, you know, in our reach, we have a

way to get help no matter where we are, how difficult the situation is.

Thank you.

There's always help available from us, even if we don't see it, if you

don't feel it to me, that's, that's the biggest, um, teaching that I saw or that

I took from that episode of the book.

Uh, and then, you know, we shouldn't really have to do the same.

I mean, the way I look at it is if I look at Andrew Lewis's footsteps, we

don't have to follow the same footsteps because we already know the outcome.

Thankfully, we read the book.

We've gotten the knowledge.

It's up on us to execute on that knowledge to practice.

To love more, to be more charitable, to reach out, to pray, to meditate,

to do all those things that we know helps us, to help us, in order not to

fall under the same traps that he did.

And just to really be a better human being at the end of the day.

Yep.

And what

I find interesting is that we see that happening, you

know, it doesn't matter, um, almost it doesn't matter what series, what

TV we watch, what movie we watch.

We always see the same type of thing happening.

We see a person that's struggling with something.

Uh, say if we talk about the, the, the, the hero's journey, like in,

in so many movies, he is reluctant.

He wants something to change, but he doesn't know or she

doesn't know what to do.

Lots of friends and lots of people are telling them what they need to do.

Or you have to go on, you have to do this, you have to...

And then he fights back, he doesn't know what to do.

And then all of a sudden, whatever reason it is, it wakes up and

he says, Yes, I have the power.

I, I am capable.

I, I can do it.

It's possible for me to do it.

And then, like Susana said, there's this threshold that...

We, we tend to look at it and we, for whatever reason, we don't like to cross

it, maybe because we know it's going to have a lot, we're going to have a

lot of work to do, we're going to have a lot of stuff to do, we're going to

need to change so much, but when it comes and then we, when we change,

then we say, okay, that was hard, but it was not as hard as I thought.

And why?

Because I already walked up to it.

So we already did a lot of work walking up to it, and then we, we are able to do it.

So it took Andre Luis, uh, eight years.

It might take us, uh, some people might stay there for

two minutes, for one minute.

Some people might not even be there anymore, you know, don't stay there

because their, their mind, their mind, our spirit, the process of what we, how

we look at things is completely different.

Then we will arrive and look around and say, Oh, I'm here.

Oh, I shouldn't be here.

I don't need to be here.

So, you just keep walking.

But some people walk and then say, Where am I?

Who am I?

And that's the other big question.

Who am I?

Andre Luis didn't, didn't know who he was and probably that's why

he didn't know he was a suicidal.

He didn't know that he was hurting himself by doing whatever he was doing.

And he had that guilt in some way because he knew it, but he didn't know it.

He knew it physically.

He knew it because he was a doctor, but maybe he didn't want to accept it.

And then that's where, even though we are not conscious, conscious of it, we,

we know and we have that, that uh, that unconscious thing that talks and speaks

to what Susanna was saying before that what we, we build around ourselves.

Like our thoughts is our hands, right?

Our, our, our hands and we build the world around us.

And it's not only the conscious thoughts that build the world around us.

Because when we die, we don't think about, I don't think about my glasses.

I don't think daily about my clothes.

I don't think at all the time about my beard.

But when I, when I, uh, when I die, I'm pretty sure that when I

die, I will see myself in glasses, in beard, and with a big belly.

That's how I, I be

because Speak for yourself, sir.

, speak for yourself.

. Mackenzie Melo: My dad says that

anymore because his per spirit is very, you know, he, I shall, his

mind is already set when he dies.

I

shall go back to my, I shall go back to my ponytail times

and during college, my luscious hairs, but you did bring something, but you

did bring something great questions.

You know, you're talking about question, asking himself who he is and what's next.

And one of the things that we do like to do here every once

in a while is get a question in.

Right.

And we have a question in from a, from a friend here.

Let's put that on the screen.

Anna tells us.

What do you guys say about someone who had an overdose and left the physical

body all of a sudden by accident?

And I'm going to read into the question that she is concerned about umbrao and

where the state of this person is, right?

I think that is a natural assumption I'm going to make, Anna, and I

apologize if that's not the case, but I think that's connected.

So do we want to take a stab on what we think about that situation and

how that relates to umbrao or not?

Sure.

Um...

I think that we, we, one thing that I always like to say when people ask me

about some specific scenarios is that we never know the specifics of a case

because each person is a person, each spirit is a spirit, uh, what led that

person to the use of drugs or to the overdose can be different paths for

different people and God's mercifulness is infinite and is an item that we

are far from truly understanding.

But based on what we have been sharing, there are some general concepts,

and that's, I mean, as far as we can go, that we can equate knowing them.

So if you think of someone who is using drugs, usually that person is a lot of

times seeding, uh, seeking, uh, escape route from himself, from problems, right?

Um, and denotates a state of suffering.

of struggles and that is that person in a state.

So that in that moment, at least.

So that is one general idea that we have.

The other general idea is also the type of death.

So when we know that when someone is older or has a disease and it's naturally moving

towards the natural death, The person is also psychically, uh, more ready, more

prepared because he or she is aware of, you know, that that might be approaching.

So that's kind of in the realms of possibilities.

And the physical body, if the physical body is at an older

age, will also be less vitalized.

Um, because you can think of it as we get older, we don't run anymore

and we don't have the burst of energies that a toddler has, right?

We get tired.

I mean, we go to bed earlier and, and et cetera, because we're

losing, uh, some of our vitality.

So the older you are, and sometimes when we go to, uh, to chronic conditions,

uh, it makes the passing process.

more easy for the spirit is difficult.

Any that sudden because the spirit awakens without that preparation, but without

that understanding of what happened, he a lot of times, or she can really feel

himself to be alive because he or she is.

Uh, without the understanding of the new situation, if the person was materialistic

or never even thought about spiritual life, that can also be another factor.

So here are three different factors, right?

The mental state of the individual, the closeness to death and the natural

cycle of that, and the type of death, when it's very sudden and unexpected.

Those are all factors that make something like this, um, difficult.

And, um, but again, there are always the, the, the circumstances

of that person's journey, which we don't know and we can't say.

So we cannot and never affirm that because someone died for an

overdose, he's there or elsewhere.

Uh, we, we don't know that.

Um, but what we know is that.

You know, it's, it's, it's a challenging situation, and that's how I would, uh,

put this, answer this and say one that, you know, calls for our prayers and

our, uh, support for that, uh, spirit.

Well said, Sue, especially because we know that

our friend is going to wake up, so to speak, on the spiritual world.

Confused, feeling lost, and eventually might come to regret

that that happenstance, right?

Because they leave behind people that they care about, people that they love,

and that is always heartbreaking and very challenging and very difficult because you

end up cutting short the relationships, even though we didn't intend to, right?

So there is no place in our hearts other than compassion.

There's no place in our hearts for anything else other than

Sympathy and support for people who undergo such a difficult

transition, such as this one, right?

And we'll, we'll keep this person in mind, as Sue said, right?

Like we'll, we'll keep thinking about them because that's what we need.

We need to uplift each other, right?

And the way we do that is through our actions.

And, you know, and sometimes that means.

Helping people while they are incarnate and sometimes helps it also helps them.

It also means helping them when they are dis carnate or without a physical body.

So, so let's do that.

I loved when Susana earlier on talked about we don't know,

we have no idea what's God, what is God's mercy, how, how powerful, how big,

and we have, we really have no idea.

So just to, to.

Take that into this, uh, the, the answer of the question that was, uh,

that was proposed to us is I, I'll go back once again to no solar and, and to

the same situation with Andrea Lewis, where he says, someone tells him, um,

maybe Lisa's, maybe Clarence, you're one of the, or one of the nurses, he

says, Oh, you know, you helped a lot of people while you were incarnated.

You did a lot of good things.

You, you used some time of yours to provide care for patients without pay.

So they, you would treat them and they would not pay you, and

that was what you needed to do.

And you have no idea how powerful the prayers of those ones were to you.

And those prayers helped in your recovery and those prayers are why you're here So

one of the reasons why you're here So, of course, it's a it's in a different way.

They say and they mention that but the idea the general idea is that and so um

Umbrao, so to start this wrap up umbrao is not a punishment That's one thing

that I wanted to say from the beginning.

I completely forgot about umbrao is not punishment because Despite all,

everything I said about purgatory, right?

The idea of heaven Hell in purgatory is not the idea of a, a just God or a

loving God is an i is the idea of a God that punishes what umbrella umbrellas

and what, um, the hell umbrellas or the hell purgatory idea is, is not of

a vengeful or um, or a, um, angry God.

It's the idea off.

He lets our destiny in our hands.

He lets our life in our hands.

Therefore, we are responsible either for our fall or for our uplift.

So if we are stuck for however long the time is in a situation that's

bad, we should not and we should understand that God is trying his best

with everything that he has around us to take us from where we are.

And if we keep there, if we are staying there is because

we still want to be there.

And this want is not necessarily a conscious want.

It's not necessarily, oh, because I want or I like it.

No, it's because I still didn't grow up enough.

I still didn't cross the threshold of really I need and I want and I'm gonna

change and I'm gonna do something.

So umbrao is not a punishment.

Uh, is a consequence of what we are and of our desire to grow.

And we make mistakes and we, we fall and we raise and we keep going.

Wow.

So much, so much, uh, so much I learned from you guys.

That is awesome.

However, our time is running out.

You know, it's been great.

The conversation is amazing.

Uh, we did have a chance to go into deep, into depth, into details

on what Umbrao is all about.

But it's time for us to wrap.

Unfortunately, you know, it's, it's been great, but it's

really time for us to wrap.

So I guess the question I'm going to ask is if we were to leave

with one thought, one main thought about Umbral, what would that be?

I can start, I can answer my own question.

I mean, I can start with that.

That's good modeling.

That's good modeling, Flavio.

Good job.

Walk the talk, right?

That's all we do.

To me, the learning is we're all going to eventually go through there.

But it's going to depend on us how quickly or how, you know, you know, how

long we're going to stage in that place.

It's only going to depend on us and nobody else.

I, I, um, I beg to differ because I'm not going.

Um, and I, I will say that, um, for a lot of people who are very, very

afraid of dying and a lot of, one of the big reasons why we're afraid of

dying is because of, um, You know what's going to happen in our consciousness.

Um, God does not expect perfection from us.

That's unrealistic expectation for us to have ourselves.

So what puts us in, um, a dark place is not our humanity.

It's our resistance to change.

It is our...

unwillingness to open to learn.

It's not your faults that will put you in a, in a, in a difficult position.

It's your unwillingness or when you give up.

And you don't want to get up anymore, or when you choose to walk backwards

and do not, um, accept the flow of life.

So it is resistance and rebelliousness in the sense of like, you know,

life is showing you the way and you choosing to go against the flow.

So do not fear umbral or whatever it is that you want to call

this, uh, afterlife situation.

By focusing on the present moment and just going to

the end of each day, putting your head in your pillow and saying today

wasn't perfect, but I did give my best and tomorrow is a new day.

I'm going to start again.

I'm going to try to do a little better because If you live your life like this,

it's, that's where you are with your mind.

And at the end of each day, you are in peace with yourself.

You show my friend that you will be in a good place.

Love it.

Thank you.

Thank you, Sue.

What about you, Matt?

What do you think?

What's one thing that, you know, is gonna leave with you after

two days?

Oh, I'm gonna say the same, the same thing that Susana said in a different way.

Don't wait.

We have to do it.

That's the thing.

We have to do it.

You know, sometimes we, we look at the difficulties and

we wait for others to change.

We wait for, uh, and, and when I thought of this, I

remembered a song that I, I like.

And I'm just going to read a few passages of it and the world, the, the words,

the, the, the, the title of the song is, uh, waiting on the world to change.

And, uh, he see, he's, he says that, oh, uh, we, it's hard to beat the system

when we are standing at a distance.

So we keep waiting, we wait on the world to change.

So it's kind of a punch because he's, he's, uh, he makes me think,

okay, am I thinking like this?

Am I waiting on the world to change?

Because if i'm waiting on the world to change i'm one that's not

that's not changing the world So I need to be the on the other side.

I need to be Someone who wants the world to change and who needs to do something

So if I want my world to change where I am and not go Even if I'm, I'm, I'm

there, I have to change, I cannot wait, I have to do it, and I have to start

it yesterday, and hopefully I did.

If not, there's today, if not, there's tomorrow.

Don't wait, let's do it.

There's

always time.

Let's not wait.

Last but not least.

Definitely, definitely least and last.

Um, there isn't much more to say.

I think you guys said it so eloquently.

I think that what I take away from today is that there is a call

to action for the here and now.

For me to try to live my life in such a way.

That I'm able to change my values, my attitudes, and my behaviors to that

which I think I would want myself to be.

So that when I pass from this physical world, which will happen,

10 years, 20 years, 30 years, who knows, but it will happen.

That my transition is as smooth as possible because I am thinking as

much spiritually as I am, you know, paying attention to the material world.

And that's a really tall order for me, and I have tons of work to do on that end.

But I think that's the moment, uh, right?

That's the call of the moment.

And that's why these, these conversations are so great.

This opportunity is for us to be able to spend some time, right?

Thinking about things that are really important to the spirit and to the soul.

And to help us in some way, shape, or form reprioritize, which is

important to us in our lives.

Uh, double down on the things that we carry with us beyond one lifetime.

Leave behind the things that will not be useful when we are on

the other side of things, right?

And so I think that's what I hear and I think that's why I'm so

thankful and so grateful To have a chance to talk with you guys here.

Thanks for thanks for doing this guys.

It's really great.

Thank you everyone

Thank you everyone,

and we thank everybody who is listening as well We remind

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