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135. Pull The Weeds When They’re Wet with Kris Ward
Episode 13511th April 2024 • FINE is a 4-Letter Word • Lori Saitz
00:00:00 00:39:23

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What is our cultural obsession with busyness? How many businesspeople do you know who wear their exhaustion as a badge of honor?

Kris Ward was raised with values she eventually learned she had to overcome – the values of moving fast, getting a lot of stuff done, and working hard. Hard work equals success.

But is any of this true?

Kris grew up, got married, and started a business. She was determined to succeed and put in a lot of long, hard hours. Her marriage seemed happy, her business seemed to be growing, and all that hard work seemed to be paying off. Everything seemed fine.

But Fine is a 4-Letter Word, as Kris found out about two years into her entrepreneurial journey when her husband said, “You're starting to lose some of your charm.”

After hearing this, Kris realized she was fatigued and stretched thin most of the time. She read studies conducted by Harvard professors that showed how working hard makes you less productive - optimal human productivity caps at about six hours per day - but thought she could outrun these studies. They didn’t apply to her because SHE was different.

Eventually, and you’ll hear how, she was able to dramatically reduce her workday from sixteen hours to six, and discovered she was more productive, more fulfilled, and more successful than ever before.

In fact, when her husband was diagnosed with colon cancer, she stepped away from her business for almost two years, and nobody – not her clients, not her local business community – even noticed she’d dropped out for a while!

Her business was going so well that during her husband’s final months, people would ask how she was holding up and she’s say “I’m fine” – that 4-letter word – and for Kris, this was a subtle downgrade to what she usually said.

Today, as creator of Win The Hour, Win The Day, she works with entrepreneurs who think everything’s going to be “fine” if they just work harder at the hustle and grind. She emphasizes the importance of energy management over mere time management, advocating for strategic delegation and prioritization that supports both personal well-being and professional success.

What’s her secret?

You’re about to find out, so get your pad and pen ready.

Kris’ hype song is the “Rocky” theme song – “Gonna Fly Now” by Bill Conti.


Invitation from Lori:

If, like Kris, you discover that the values of working hard and going fast do NOT equal success the way you’d hoped or expected, the 5 Easy Ways to Start Living The Sabbatical Life guide is your Great Reset.

Once you read it, you’ll

✅ Discover a counter-intuitive approach to making intentional changes in mindset and lifestyle.

✅ Learn how to own your feelings and your struggles so you can address them.

✅ Find out how to face fears, step out of your comfort zone, and rewire your beliefs.

It’s only 7 pages, so it won’t take you long to get through. And it might help prevent you from snapping “I’m FINE!” at whoever asks how you’re doing.

When you’re ready to say F*ck Being Fine, this guide is the place to start. It’s time to be open and honest with yourself so you can make things better.

Go to right now to download it for free.

Now it’s time to meet Kris. She looks energized just like you see in all her videos. This is going to be a treat!


Lori: Hello and welcome to Fine is a 4-Letter Word. My guest today, Kris Ward. Welcome to the show, Kris.

Kris: Oh, I'm excited to be here. Thank you so much.

Lori: I'm eager to see where this conversation takes us today. And right before we started recording, you picked up your drink. What are you drinking? Water, tea?

Kris: Water.

Lori: Okay. Which made me realize that I do not have mine here. So hopefully, I can make it through this episode without needing water.

Kris: Okay.

Lori: Kris, what were the values and beliefs that you were raised with that contributed to you becoming who you did as a young adult and then who you are now?

Kris: Oh, Lord, let's go deep and far, right?

Lori: Yeah. Right away.

Kris: I don't know. I'm going to go the opposite way. I would almost say some of the values I had to overcome. And I think it was the—this sounds counterintuitive, but my mother and my grandmother, they both are always moving really quickly and working so hard and getting so much stuff done and it took me a long time, especially in the business world to understand that being a hard worker is not a badge of honor and how long and hard you work and stuff like that. So that whole idea of grinding it out, doing it all, and taking everything on, that was something I had to learn is, that's not something I should be leaning into and that's not something that's my best quality.

Lori: Yeah. I think a lot of people are raised that way. That hard work equals success. It's part of the reason why I created my, 5 Easy Ways to Start Living a Sabbatical Life guide because this idea that success equals hard work or hard work equals success.

Kris: Yeah. And that it's your best quality like oh, she's a hard worker. Okay. Well, there we go. I'm worthy, right?

Lori: Right, right. How did you come to the realization that that's not true? And how did you rewire your brain because that was so ingrained in you, I'm sure?

Kris: Well, the rewiring took some time, but it was really the turning point in my business where I started to realize, oh my gosh, I'm just working so hard. And my husband used to always say, “You're getting diminishing results the longer you stay at your desk.” And I was like, “Oh, you don't understand. You have a job. I'm so wise. I have a business.” And he said it was always stealing from sleep, getting up earlier and earlier and staying later and later. And I was just like, “Well, no.” Right? When I started to write my book, Win the Hour, Win the Day, there was all these studies I read about how the brain works and decision fatigue and attention residue and how we only really have six hours of productivity in us per day. But if you are as arrogant as I am, then you would think somehow that you are exempt from all these studies in science because you care so much about your business that you don't understand these people at Harvard who studied all these sorts of people. You don't get it. I have my own business. It's different, right?

Lori: Yes.

Kris: And so, it did take some time and I had mentors that were very successful saying, “You know what, you're depleting yourself.” Get out of my way. Let's do this, right? So it took some time and hard facts and evidence didn't even win that argument. But when I did finally turn that point and say, “all right,” we literally went from working 16 hours a day down to 6. It did not happen overnight. That's a whole story of its own. But when I did that, I did start to see that, oh my gosh, this is crazy. I'm so much more productive. I get so much more done. Not just in the less time, but in everything. I was just getting more out there. My energy output was higher. So it really is everything.

Lori: How did you rewire the brain because logically we can hear about these studies like you did and go, okay, that makes sense. But because the brain is wired to believe that, you have to overcome that or rewire it.

Kris: Yeah. So I was lucky that I was surrounded with some really great people. So what would happen was—listen, I don't even know. I was starting to think, oh my gosh, maybe I am a workaholic, because it's just so easy to lean into work. And also, as an entrepreneur, there's so many times I'm like, oh, oh, we're taking this new course. So I want to stay late tonight and do that or come in on Sunday. We’ve got this new client I'm really excited about. So I confused as all my clients often do—I’ll hear that from some of my clients that work with entrepreneurs who have been in business 5, 10 years, but they're just putting in way too many hours for where they are at this point in their journey. So if you're a coach, consultant, entrepreneur, or a small business person, you're thinking, well, once I get past this next thing, things will be fine. Ding, ding, ding, that's a problem. So I used to think, oh my gosh, no, no, you don't understand. I really care about this. This is exciting.

And so, when I finally did have a cap on my calendar and then even sometimes relapse is part of recovery, sometimes I'd be like, okay, I've done really good all week. And then you get confused because you think, well, I'm so rested. Why would I leave work, right? But the idea, which I help all my clients with is, you should be able to leave work still fresh and come back refreshed, right? And so, then the odd time when I'd be like, oh no, this is different. I'm going to stay. It's Thursday night, I'm going to stay till 7:00 and do this. And then it was pointed out to me painfully by my team, or I would start to realize, ah, then I've worked till 7:00. I didn't get quite to bed at quite the same time. I got a little sluggish the next morning. I could see it unraveling. And I was like, wow, this is crazy. Just from one night. Now it's only two, three hours before bed, so I didn't quite get to bed on time. So I didn't quite get up early the next morning. My workout wasn't as good. And so, you're like, ah, damn it, there's no cheating this system is what I learned.

Lori: Hmm, interesting.

Kris: Yeah.

Lori: Somebody mentioned to me recently that workaholics or people who work all the time like that, that’s a form of self-abuse.

Kris: Well, I think it's a form of hiding. Sometimes when you're going through a difficult time or you—I mean, I did it cause like everybody else, I got seduced into the whole idea of, oh, I am doing noble by giving my business everything because my family's supporting me. And so, I'm starting this business, so this is the right thing to do to show I will do everything I can to make this succeed. Thank you for your support. So I was getting caught up into that, but there are times I have noticed in the past, previous to having my own business, if I maybe went through a breakup or went through something, it's like, I'll just do extra shifts at work or whatever, right? And so, I think it is—I mean, I guess it's still better than spending money on drugs and alcohol. So you get paid for it. You don't get paid for abusing yourself there, but I'm sure it is a form of abuse. But I think it's really, just not understanding the value of just being present and producing isn't about being important.

Lori: Right. That is such a key point. Yeah, right. Because we're taught that our value is tied up in what we produce, what we accomplish, what we achieve.

Kris: Yeah. And when I'm working with my clients too, one of the things that I have to train them the same way too is, you almost feel guilty when you take a Friday off because there's things to do. And it's like, no, do you know what, taking a day off, resting, having fun, playing, that is doing something. And we associate doing something with output, but like an Olympic athlete, they're not training the night before the Olympics. There's a whole cycle. Slowing it down and doing all these things, and yet the rest and the care and the recovery, and we don't do that as entrepreneurs, consultants, or business owners. So it really is about what's the best I could offer my clients, my team, my business. It's I have to show up rested, strong every day. And to do that, I can't deplete myself on sleep. I mean, studies show again and again, it's like being hung over. They’re now comparing it to drunk driving, all this stuff. And oh my gosh, as entrepreneurs, we're like sleep deprived. Watch me. Right?

Lori: Yeah, right, right. I’ll sleep when I’m dead.

Kris: Yes.

Lori: Is the common phrase.

Kris: Yeah.

Lori: Yeah. Well, you might be dead sooner because you're depleting yourself so much that that leads to physical, mental, emotional burnout, as well as physical disease in the body.

Kris: Yeah. I've had a lot of clients come to me after they've had some sort of serious accident, and they're just horrendous things. And I mean, I struggle with this because I'm a very positive person, so I hate sharing them because they're kind of graphic. But even just one lady said, “Oh my gosh, I knew I was rushing. I was rushing. I'm always rushing. I'm always behind. I was always tired.” And she just rushed and she knocked the whole thing of tea all over and got third degree burns.

Lori: Oh, my gosh.

Kris: And it’s just really and that's the cleanest version of that story I can give you. But there's all kinds of situations where they say, you know what, I was tired for so long. I was always rushing, thinking once I got past this next thing. And they look good on paper, so many of my clients, you look great on paper. You're making money. You've been in business a while, but you're just still putting too many hours and you think rushing through it or one more night without sleep is going to change things. And all it is, is you just don't have the correct setup. Some really basic, simple—it’s not complicated, but it's strategic. And without that, all you're doing is making up for it with speed and fatigue.

Lori: Yeah, right. Powering through, but not even—

Kris: Not effectively.

Lori: Effectively, that’s the word I was looking for. Yeah, exactly. When you were working like that, you mentioned your husband was pointing out to you that it was diminishing returns. What was it doing to your relationship?

Kris: Well, I did listen to him, ish.

Lori: Eventually.

Kris: Yeah. We had date night every Friday night. So I never missed that no matter what. And because I did enjoy his time so much that that was the one thing that could stop me. However, I was like a little addict. If the hockey's in playoffs and I'm like, all right, I'll just go answer one email and then until I'm caught that I've slithered off like a little addict in the closet answering emails. So I do think—he did say about my two-year mark, when my business many years ago was at the two-year mark, he said, “You're starting to lose some of your charm.” And I was like, “Oh, my gosh.” I was freaking tired and cranky all the time.

Lori: That’s a very kind way of phrasing it.

Kris: Yeah. And I was impatient and exhausted. And that was a turning point for me because I was like, okay, he's my biggest fan. I cannot be short with him. It just can't be, right?

Lori: Yeah.

Kris: Again, I bought into—he thought I could do anything. So I'm like, this business better take off. So then I was like, all right, this isn't working. And that's when I literally turned it around from working 16 hours a day down to 6. And you know what, luckily, I did because as you know, a couple of years after that, he was diagnosed with colon cancer and I was pulled away from the business for about two years. And when I returned after his passing, my existing clients had no idea of my absence nor did the local business community. It's not how we navigated his journey. We were very positive in nature.

But to that point, I was very present during that. I wasn't distracted. And I had a business that supported my life instead of consuming it because I was not in the headspace to return to a failed business and then try to find a job, be charming at interview and learn a new job. And so, having these things in place like what we talk about, our super toolkits and our team and our time philosophies, that literally saved my life. So luckily, I did turn that all around in a situation where I don't have regret about how I navigated that.

Lori: Yeah. I know a lot of a lot of people, a lot of entrepreneurs, their relationships get destroyed, myself included, because I mean, that wasn't the only thing, but that was a contributing factor to—I feel like is it was a contributing factor to the demise of my marriage because all of my energy and time was put into the business and not so much left over for the relationship.

Kris: Well, and it comes to a point where everything that isn't work is an interruption to work, right?

Lori: Yes.

Kris: I mean, I was very lucky because I very much respected him and heard him for the most part. So I turned it around quickly. But yeah, definitely, entrepreneurs, the road is littered with divorces.

Lori: Yeah, yeah. Right. It is the biggest personal growth journey you can go on and at the same time, it can be very destructive.

Kris: Yeah, yeah.

Lori: What did you do and what do you teach your clients in terms of, okay, so if I'm not working 16 hours a day, what the hell do I do with the rest of the time?

Kris: I don't think that's a problem because there's a lot of people from the sidelines that have been neglected. And I do find—I don't know if it's a character trait of entrepreneurs, consultants, coaches, business owners, but I do find a lot of them come to me and say, “Oh my gosh, Kris, I used to be very active. I played hockey in high school. It wasn't an adult league and now I do this. I used to go to the gym. And that's the other thing is, then things get pushed to the side. I know for me, the first time in my life, I wasn't exercising. It's like, I wasn't sleeping. I had no time to exercise, right? So it's really about putting these things back in your life and once you do that, you start to realize, ah, I'm showing up feeling strong. My mind is clear. I'm the biggest resource for this business.

You wouldn't treat a car like that. You wouldn't have a really expensive car and say, “Okay, this is what we're going to do. We're just going to run it on fumes and we're going to buy cheap gas and the tires are going to go bald.” You take better care of your car most of the time than you do yourself. So what I had to really wrap my head around was, this is the machine. I need my body and my brain at its peak performance to do the best for my clients and my business.

Lori: Do you have clients though? Because I've had so many conversations with my clients and my friends of, I don't even know what's fun anymore. Yeah, maybe I used to do those things, but I'm not really into that anymore. But now what do I replace this with?

Kris: I think if they're in that situation, they're still in the recovery part. They're just so burnt out that they're still like, oh my gosh. And that's another thing, there's so many cycles of burnout that I didn't even know what burnout was when I went through it the first couple of times and stuff. That's not like me not to care. I care so much. I'm so excited and so inspired by everything. What's wrong with me, right? And so, I think they're still recovering from burnout because I find it hard to believe that, you know what, if you catch your breath and you're not feeling guilty about it and you feel good about the work you completed, that there are things you like to do. And even if that thing is nothing, if nothing is puttering around the house or whatever it is you want to do, just not being, what's the next thing I have to do? Where am I jumping hurdles, right? So I think they're just in the infancy stage of recovery there.

Lori: Typically, it feels so uncomfortable to not be doing something even though, again, we are human beings, not human doings, but when, again, you've been wired to always be doing, to not be doing is so uncomfortable.

Kris: Well, a lot of people—when we start helping my clients with their win team is what I call their what is next team. And what happens is they start getting relief. So, so many of us have been trained by the institutions of the corporate world. And so, it's a very parentified system and you're used to, you hire somebody, you check on their work like they're a child or a student and you're the parent or the teacher and that creates work in itself. And so, what happens is, so many people think, oh, Kris, I'm not going to hire because—and especially when you've got these options of 5, 6 US dollars an hour for amazing talent around the world, it's like, oh no, I'm not going to do that because it takes more work. Well, that's because of the setup.

But when you start doing it in an effective way and creating what we call a win team or what is next team, then when you start getting relief and more relief and more relief and you're like, oh, this feels good. Okay, I cut out early and I can do this. I'm taking Friday off. I mean, my clients have not had trouble with that. I think in that case, you're speaking of, so often they think the other shoe is going to drop and there's guilt there. But when you start seeing that, in order for it to be an effective machine, it has to be able to operate without you. Otherwise, you're just suffering and you've got a very expensive self-employed job. But when you start getting that relief, you realize, oh, this is how it's supposed to be. You didn't start a business just to run a business. We remember, there was that freedom lifestyle and the freedom wasn't to work as many hours as you can that the law in your land would forbid, but you've been able to get around it because it's your company.

Lori: Yes. That is typically how entrepreneurs work, especially in the beginning. And then that's not really—you don't really have a business like you said, you have a job. You don't have a business that you could step away from.

Kris: You're constantly pushing that rock up the hill.

Lori: Yeah, yeah. We talked in our pre-recording conversation about fine, the whole concept of fine in your view. And since it is Fine is a 4-Letter Word, talk a little bit about that. That we were talking about it being a downgrade.

Kris: Well, what I was saying to you is, you said, “How do you relate to the title?” And I said, “It was very interesting.” Because when I was going through everything at the end with my husband, if you were at the grocery store and they say, “How are you today?” And I would say, “I'm fine.” And people didn't understand, I always say I'm good. I'm good. Life is good. There's always something to be happy about. We're good. And for me, people didn't understand that when I was saying I'm fine, that was like, you don't understand things are dark because I am saying I am fine. It was really a downgrade for something I would never say. And so, to me, it was like, in my mind, this is the best I can give you and you don't understand the power of that word to me. So to me, fine is not good enough. We should all be good. And so, during that period, if somebody asked me how I was, I'd say, I'm fine.

Lori: Did anybody know that that was like a code word for you that I'm not really fine? I mean, it's a code word for most people. When people say I'm fine, they're not fine.

Kris: Yeah, I don't think anybody noticed because I always had enough—I had a lot on my plate, so I don't think that was a conversation to be had. And they assumed that I—I'll be honest, people told me I had navigated that journey as well as it could be navigated. We were very positive in nature and we were really purposeful about everything we did. So I think that people thought I was really doing well considering the circumstances, but downgrading good to fine. I mean, that was the least of my worries during that part.

Lori: Yeah, yeah. I had a note here about teaching people how to—we’ve been talking about reclaiming your time. A lot of people talk about time management. Is that the way that you position what you're doing or is it more a matter of energy management?

Kris: Yeah. The coined phrase is time management, but the problem with that philosophy is you subscribe to the fact of sort of, for me, I thought for years, oh, I'll just go faster, right? I can outrace time. You can check out our power personality quiz at, and there we have a power personality quiz. And in that, you'll find that there's strengths and weaknesses to your entrepreneurial personality. Mine is a rushaholic and I am a recovering rushaholic.

Lori: Okay.

Kris: And I had to learn that going fast wasn't my superpower. I mean, it was great, but I was skimming over things that wasn't getting traction and what I thought was managing time is outrunning time. And so, after I made sort of that transition, changing my life, going from 16 hours a day down to 6, I realized it's really about energy output. That you should be able to do the same thing at 3:00 in the afternoon that you were able to do at 9:00 in the morning. You shouldn't be depleted as the day goes on and less and less effective, right? And that's the thing. So people are chasing time management, but really what you want to be doing is energy output. So here's the thing. I cannot stress to you enough that I'm not a gardener, but my neighbor is trying to coach me. So I would say, the best I do is yard work, right?

Lori: Okay.

Kris: And it was really powerful to me, energy management, like to go out and pull-out weeds after it rained. So I pull out the weeds, the ground is wet, and these big roots will come out from underneath the ground. Whereas you go out a week before, it's a sunny day, it takes you a lot more muscle to pull the weed. You're not going to get nearly the root out. It's going to break off. So the energy management of, my efficiency was tenfold after rain and it took me one-quarter of the amount of fuel or output to get those weeds out that it would be on a sunny day. So that's a good example of energy management.

Lori: Yeah. But also, I could see how that could be related to time management and in regards to picking the right time to pull the weeds.

Kris: Hundred percent and when we work with—90% of entrepreneurs or most people use their calendar, dare I say it wrong, I don't like that word wrong, but it's definitely ineffective and mostly wrong. And that's a big part of what we do is, you'll start to see, ah, here's the thing, when it's laid out properly, you start to realize, oh, these clumpings, I do better when I do these tasks together versus these ones, right? So you really can leverage your energy and lean into it when you're not chasing a to-do list and just trying to stuff things in between appointments because then you're just—it’s almost like a high energy scavenger hunt. I love that analogy.

Lori: Okay. Now I have this image of a squirrel out looking for the nuts all over the place running around like a scavenger hunt. That's awesome. Yeah. You mentioned decision fatigue and I know that I've read a lot about that and how that's the reason that Steve Jobs would just always wear black turtlenecks because he didn't have to make a decision and a lot of the business people wear the same thing every day because they don't want to have to use their decision-making abilities in deciding what to wear.

Kris: Well, I think that's a bit extreme. And I also think we're talking to a bunch of men. Obama said that too. Okay, fine. So what do you have a blue suit or a black suit? I mean, how many decisions are in there anyhow, right? So I don't know about that one. I know they all say it, but whatever. I think that's just some Mark Zuckerberg, lazy ass fashion is what that is, right? Do I wear a blue hoodie or a black hoodie? I think that stems from a deeper thing, but I do subscribe to it. We apparently make about 35,000 decisions in a day and there is a reason why when you get home from the groceries on Friday night, it's not the time that you start looking at your taxes.

Lori: Yeah.

Kris: So you do want to control that, but that lends itself to things that we talk about all the time. I’m talking back to that scavenger hunt on your calendar. So many people don't even put email. I’ve got to check my email. So you do it every day, but they're like, oh, I'll just hop over in between appointment and that gives you all kinds of decision fatigue. You're going in all different directions. You have attention residue, whereas, most people use their calendar just for outside appointments and then they don't put their own work on the calendar. And what happens is, you might think you're walking into the day with eight hours. You might only have six. And so, that's where things get—they sort of bleed out with decision fatigue. And so, there's other ways that you can limit and enhance that so it serves you and still have a variety in your wardrobe.

Lori: I love that. And as you're saying that about putting the appointments with yourself in the calendar—I'm terrible about doing that, by the way. So I know firsthand what you're talking about. And I had a question. I was going somewhere with this. Oh, I was going to say, I'm really into fitness and working out and a lot of the trainers will talk about meal planning at the beginning of the week. Doing one shopping trip and then on Sunday, cooking all the food and setting it all up and having your meals. And I have never really subscribed to that either. But as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, yeah, that could not just keep you on track. I don't have a problem staying on track with my eating habits, which a lot of people do. But just again, the decision. If you have it all planned out already ahead of time.

Kris: Well, I think to them, the decision is now I'm saying where it gets decision fatigue is I'm standing from the fridge and kind of hungry, and I didn't plan my day effectively. So why don't I snack on that while I look for something that I should eat? So that's where it unravels. But the decision fatigue and attention residue, what people don't talk about, if you can imagine, think of it like—I will often do this in a video and I'll have a piece of paper and put shaving cream on it and then I will wipe it off and you see the residue left behind. That's attention residue. So when I hop over to see something, I get an email, have some thought to it and I hop back to talk to you or something. I don't come back with everything. The tentacles are still there of sort of my attention, and science shows that over and over again. So there's a lot to it and it just means about, again, having infrastructure set up with your team, your time and toolkits, so that you can be so much more productive in way less time.

Lori: I have a feeling that you subscribe to the belief that multitasking is not possible.

Kris: Well, science. It’s not just me. And again, I thought for years that I outran science because they did not understand that I got a lot done, but they show it again and again that you make more mistakes. It's a distorted sense of time and the mistakes that people don't understand is how costly they are. So if you imagine, Lori, let's say going to the grocery store, you're driving to the store and you've got eggs. You have to pick up eggs, bread and milk and then you get home and you realize, oh, my gosh, wait, hold on. Did I not get milk? And so, it takes you a few minutes to figure out, did—I swear I got it. No, I didn't. So you have to have the discovery phase. Then when you do that, you're like, well, this is a deal breaker. I have to go back. So now you go back and we don't think of this in our business, but you took double the time, you double the gas. Now you got to go get the milk, line up again. So the cost is literally double and in our business, we think, okay, fine, we got to go back and fix that mistake, but we don't understand the impact that has on our efficiency and output. And so, yeah, it just doesn't work.

Lori: Yeah. How did you start teaching other people this?

Kris: Well, when I was pulled away from my business for about two years when I returned after my husband's passing, my existing clients, we were working on market messaging and they just had no idea of my absence because we were just very positive in nature with his journey. The local business community didn't know and so, they started then to say to me, “How could you have been away and we didn't know. And if you could do that, maybe you’d help us get to our kid’s soccer games. Visiting our family and friends again. And so, then one thing led to another and I realized that people that needed me most, again, were in business a while and looked good on paper. And so, that's when I wrote my book, Win the Hour, Win the Day, and it kind of all snowballed from there.

Lori: Right. So they're saying everything is fine, but it's not fine.

Kris: Yeah, good tie down, Lori. You've done this before.

Lori: Yeah. Well, yeah. So speaking of positivity and being upbeat, what is the song you listen to when you need an extra boost of energy?

Kris: I guess, it would be, I'm a big old Rocky fan, so I think it would be Rocky. Yeah, you watch that and you think, listen, right, when I finish this movie, I'm going to go down and do a whole training montage. Oh, wait, I'll get to that tomorrow. But anyhow, it does make you believe you can do anything.

Lori: Yes, I love it. And if people want to continue a conversation with you based on what we talked about today, where can they find you?

Kris: Yeah. So just reach out to me in any of the socials, especially LinkedIn, and tell me that were listening to this fantastic show with Lori. We'll become fast friends. Love to hear from you. And in the meantime, definitely go to and there are a few goodies in there that will impress you. The audio version of my book. And I would definitely encourage you to take the quiz. And people tell me all the time, I get right in their head. It takes 30 seconds and I think you'd have a lot of fun.

Lori: Yeah, I want to go take the quiz and I'm going to put the link to that in the show notes. So it'll be really easy for people to find. Kris, thank you so much for joining me today on Fine is a 4-letter word.

Kris: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate you trusting me with your audience.




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