In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Jim Kanichirayil sits down with Kiley Ewing, Chief People Officer at McGuire Sponsel, a specialty tax consulting firm based out of Indianapolis, Indiana, to explore what it really takes to build an HR function from the ground up while staring down two of the most aggressive goals an organization can set: doubling headcount and tripling revenue by 2030.

Six months into her role, Kiley isn't just reacting to growth, she's engineering it. With a background in high-performance coaching, neuroscience, and consultative selling, she brings a uniquely systems-oriented and mindset-forward approach to people operations. She shares how she came in and immediately focused on fixing processes before adding people, why she chose Predictive Index as her first tool, and how data-driven hiring helped her build a complementary team rather than a collection of people doing jobs they don't enjoy.

Together, they dig into how Kiley thinks about the intersection of AI and human judgment in hiring, what it means to evaluate HR technology with the end in mind, and why thinking like a business owner rather than an employee is the single biggest unlock for HR leaders trying to earn credibility and drive real outcomes.

Kiley also shares how she's already saved the organization $400,000 in her first six months, why she's building for 200 people now while still at 100, and what it means to balance strategic thinking with a collaborative culture that actually wants to slow you down.

Topics Discussed:

1. Why Kiley started with process before people and what that unlocked for hiring
2. How Predictive Index works as a complement to human judgment, not a replacement
3. The right way to evaluate and select HR technology for where you're going, not where you are
4. Using AI tools like ChatGPT to shortcut vendor research and find the right feature set
5. Why delegation and complementary strengths are the foundation of a lean, strategic HR team
6. The role competency vs. company competency framework in hiring and performance management
7. How to avoid the "guess and check" model in talent acquisition with predictive data
8. Workforce planning for 200 people when you're still at 100 and why it matters now
9. Thinking like a business owner: how Kiley saved $400K in her first six months
10. Why you can't fix a bad process by throwing AI or technology at it

If you're an HR leader navigating aggressive growth goals, building out your tech stack, or trying to stay strategic without losing sight of execution, this episode is a practical and energizing look at what future-ready HR actually looks like in the field.

Additional Resources:

1. Cleary's AI-powered HR Chatbot
2. Future Proof HR Community
3. Connect with Kiley Ewing on LinkedIn

I think one, it starts with mindset.

2

So I don't ever feel like

I'm in firefighting mode.

3

I feel like that is coming from

a scarcity mindset, and I stay in

4

an abundance mindset all the time.

5

I look at growth as an exciting

opportunity, not as something

6

that is scary or stressful.

7

I crave growth.

8

So I think one is how you're thinking

about growth is foundational.

9

Jim Kanichirayil: You're an HR leader

and you're six months into the role and

10

you have some pretty aggressive goals in

front of you, one of those goals involves

11

doubling your headcount by 2030, and

that's pretty aggressive in and of itself.

12

But another part of your goals is to

triple revenue as an organization.

13

That is a double whammy of pretty

aggressive goals that you have to have

14

a strong role in helping to solve.

15

So how do you actually

even begin the process of.

16

Accomplishing both of those

pretty aggressive goals.

17

when you're looking at any sort of

transformation, you have to consider the

18

people, process and technology components

of that transformation, and you need

19

to have a framework for executing it.

20

Today's conversation will dig into how.

21

The foundation has been built to

successfully accomplish those two goals,

22

and the person who's gonna be guiding

us through that conversation is Kiley

23

Ewing, who's the Chief People Officer at

McGuire Sponsel, a special tax consulting

24

firm based out of Indianapolis, Indiana.

25

She and her husband started a

high performance coaching company,

26

Odyssey Resilience prior to her

27

She spent almost a decade coaching

high performers in the areas of

28

mindset, neuroscience, resilience,

emotional intelligence, NLP, DISC, time

29

management, and consultative selling.

30

She's passionate about driving

performance through people and empowering,

31

scalable success, and we're super

excited to have her on the show today.

32

Kylie, welcome to the show.

33

Kiley Ewing: Thank you.

34

Jim Kanichirayil: I'm looking

forward to this conversation.

35

There's gonna be a lot of interesting

angles that we pursue, especially since

36

this is gonna be focused more on the

talent acquisition and talent development

37

side, which tends to be my wheelhouse.

38

So let's get right into it.

39

I think the first order of business is

for you to share with us and the audience

40

a little bit about the organization

and structure so that we have the

41

appropriate context to move forward.

42

Kiley Ewing: Sure.

43

So McGuire Sponsel is a specialty tax

firm based out of Indianapolis with just

44

under a hundred employees right now.

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We are looking to grow and scale

46

So over the next four-ish years,

we are looking to add quite

47

a few new people to our team.

48

So talent acquisition has been

a huge focus for me as I have

49

come into the organization.

50

Jim Kanichirayil: So that's

a pretty ambitious goal to

51

double in headcount by 2030.

52

Doubling in headcount in any timeframe

is a pretty ambitious goal to go after.

53

I guess one of the things that I'm

wondering is from your perspective as an

54

HR leader of a hundred person company,

when you think about doubling or tripling

55

or just the scaling process, what are

the things that have to be factored

56

or accounted for to pull off that

sort of scaling exercise successfully?

57

Kiley Ewing: I think of

business broken down into two

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categories, people and processes.

59

First thing I focused on was

building up our processes so

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that we can find great people.

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So that was the initial assessment

that I did coming into my

62

role about six months ago.

63

Finding the right tools, making sure our

processes were buttoned up and smooth.

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And then obviously nowadays is AI.

65

How can we leverage AI

to do more with less?

66

And the other part of our 2030 vision, our

ambitious goals is to triple in revenue.

67

The other big part of this is not

only are we doubling in headcount,

68

but we're trying to triple in revenue.

69

And so that delta has

to come from efficiency.

70

So efficiency is really the name of

the game in every aspect of the scaling

71

process that we are focused on right now.

72

So I am looking for any and every

tool that can help us do this more

73

efficiently, more effectively.

74

Jim Kanichirayil: Yes, your goals

are aggressive and you have the

75

revenue goals on top of that too.

76

One of the things that I'm struggling to

wrap my head around is my understanding

77

of an organization of your size,

especially from an HR perspective.

78

It's the closest thing to

survival mode that you can

79

think of within an organization.

80

You probably have one or two people on the

team, and it's just constant firefighting.

81

If that's accurate, and even if

it's not, I'm sure there are people

82

that are in similar situations

that want to do these things.

83

What are the guardrails that you've set up

that allow you to think more strategically

84

and get out of that firefighting

mode so that you can double or triple

85

head count, double or triple revenue?

86

What are the guardrails that you

put in place that allows you the

87

space to think about those things

and then more importantly, start

88

putting the pieces in place?

89

Kiley Ewing: I think one,

it starts with mindset.

90

So I don't ever feel like

I'm in firefighting mode.

91

I feel like that is coming from

a scarcity mindset, and I stay in

92

an abundance mindset all the time.

93

I look at growth as an exciting

opportunity, not as something

94

that is scary or stressful.

95

I crave growth.

96

So I think one is how you're thinking

about growth is foundational.

97

And I think the other thing that

I did was hire an generalist.

98

So Timmy is my wing woman in

our department, and I have

99

to trust her completely.

100

Delegation, I think is the only way

I can stay strategic in my function

101

and I have to trust her fully.

102

She takes stuff off of my plate so

that I can stay higher level, and we

103

have to trust each other and have open

communication and just stay in constant

104

contact so we have those check-ins

on Monday and Friday just to set the

105

tone for the week and then also talk

about, okay, how did the week go?

106

What do you need from me?

107

And then we just stay in constant

communication throughout the week.

108

And monthly strategy meetings so that

she knows, Hey, this is what I've

109

got focused on my plate this month.

110

What do you have on your plate so

that we can stay high level together

111

and we have constant communication

on what the priorities are.

112

And she knows what I'm

gonna be focused on.

113

And sometimes there's things that

I wanna join in on, but I can't.

114

So we have to divide and conquer.

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Jim Kanichirayil: So if I'm taking

what you just described and breaking

116

it down into sort of fundamental

pieces, there's one element of how you

117

establish the right cadences, delegation.

118

The other element is asynchronous

accountability for each person's

119

areas of responsibilities.

120

Three is discipline where

your staying within your lanes

121

because you can't afford to like

122

cross over into a lot of different lanes.

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'Cause that'll just suck

up your areas of expertise.

124

and then four is regular touch points

so that you can gauge progress.

125

So that's a nice little framework,

or at least if you're setting

126

up a framework of communication

and areas of responsibilities,

127

that offers a pretty solid set of

rules for people to operate with.

128

Sounds pretty basic, but I think a lot

of people would probably, when they're

129

in the thick of it, get a little lost

on how do I even start this process?

130

So that gives us a good foundation of kind

of what you were looking at and seeing

131

as you get started on this initiative of

doubling headcount and tripling revenue.

132

But let's dig into one of the

other pieces that you talked about.

133

Which was the whole people

side of the equation.

134

And if you're looking to do all of

those things, doubling headcount,

135

triple in revenue, there's a significant

people investment that has to be done.

136

And when you look at

that people investment,

137

what were the changes in the talent

acquisition process or even the

138

employee lifecycle that you needed to

factor in as you started building the

139

next generation of this organization?

140

Kiley Ewing: Yeah.

141

Again, I go back to the

people in the process, right?

142

So I'm looking at the process and

I'm saying, okay, what's working?

143

What's not?

144

Where can we streamline things?

145

Where can we get more dialed in and

have a little less risk in the process?

146

And I think, when it comes to talent

acquisition, the greatest risk is you hire

147

somebody and then they turn over, right?

148

So we all know the cost of

a bad hire is very high.

149

So as we think about, okay, we're gonna

be hiring lots of people over the next

150

few years, so we've gotta get this right.

151

We've gotta get the process down and we've

gotta be able to continuously refine it.

152

So even as I was looking to hire

Timmy, one of the things that

153

I leveraged was Active Index.

154

It's the first tool that I

implemented when I came into my role.

155

And the great thing about this tool

was it gave me a readout of how our

156

dynamics were going to be together.

157

It predicted how we were gonna work

together based on an assessment that I

158

had her take before I even spoke to her.

159

So I was able to have a little bit

of an idea of how we would gel before

160

I even had a conversation with her.

161

And I had already benchmarked the position

to what exactly I was looking for.

162

Knowing what my strengths were

and where my weaknesses were,

163

because we all have them.

164

Knowing that I'm trying to stay high

level and strategic in my role, I need

165

somebody who's gonna be focused more

so on details and helping me build

166

processes because I know I can't spend

all of my time doing those things if

167

I'm gonna be strategic in my function.

168

So I looked for somebody with really high

precision and higher consistency so that

169

she could be the builder and maintainer

of the systems and processes for me and.

170

Lo and behold, she's in the role and

loving all of the things that I hate.

171

So it works phenomenally well to have

some predictive data before you get

172

somebody into the role and have a guess

and check model with no data whatsoever.

173

But you're just going off of your gut

feeling, which a lot of businesses do.

174

And there's nothing wrong with

that, but it's a higher gamble

175

that I'm not willing to take.

176

Jim Kanichirayil: So there's

a lot there to unpack and I'm

177

sure people are listening to

that part of the conversation.

178

You probably have two camps of

people that heard what you said.

179

On one camp you have the people that

are fully on board with assessments

180

as part of the hiring process.

181

In the other camp, you have people

that are probably looking at

182

that stuff and rolling their eyes

because a lot of assessments aren't

183

really any better than horoscopes.

184

And one particular thing

that I wanna respond to.

185

I think you and I both agree

that the cost of a bad hire, is

186

exorbitant for every organization.

187

My research, from my doctoral research

was actually on retention and turnover.

188

And at the time you're looking at

200% of first year salary as the cost

189

or replacement cost of a bad hire.

190

So we're on the same page there where

you and I might differ and other

191

people in the audience might differ

too, is the value of some of these

192

predictive tools in the hiring process.

193

And my main critique of how

some of these things are used is

194

that HR leaders will use them.

195

In lieu of actually vetting out or

validating a candidate's capabilities.

196

So how would you respond to people that

are on the oh, I don't like these things

197

because they're like glorified horoscopes.

198

What's your response or what's your

experience to that sort of position?

199

Kiley Ewing: Sure.

200

One, the assessment tool is

scientifically validated.

201

So if you're gonna use an assessment,

make sure it's scientifically validated

202

so that you have more of a backbone to it.

203

Two, I look at every single

resume that comes through.

204

So I'm not sending the

assessment out unless I have

205

had eyes on the resume myself.

206

So there is a human element to our process

that is only enhanced by AI and data.

207

So it's not that I'm replacing my human

expertise with AI, it is complimentary

208

to what I know is valuable with my

skillset in seeing so many resumes.

209

Because I will say that, i've seen so

many resumes in my recruiting career

210

that nothing is going to replace the

knowledge that I have from recruiting.

211

Same as you.

212

You've seen probably thousands

of resumes, and you're gonna be

213

able to draw conclusions very

quickly based on your experience.

214

I'm not eliminating that at all.

215

In fact, I'm only enhancing that by

saying, okay, is the data confirming

216

what I think to be true that this

is potentially a good hire or is it

217

maybe disqualifying what I think to

be true and making me second guess it.

218

I could still have a conversation and I

have, there's been plenty of candidates

219

where maybe the percent match to my

benchmark was 46% and we still hired

220

'em anyway because the experience that

they brought to the table was more

221

important what the data was telling us.

222

So we make exceptions all of the

time, but the data is and always

223

will be something that helps us

gain conviction in our decisions.

224

And also gives us more of an informed

decision going into hiring this

225

person, knowing, okay, they may

not have all of the strengths that

226

we're looking for in this position.

227

This is something we're

gonna have to manage them to.

228

Or this is something that we're

gonna have to coach them on.

229

We're okay with that.

230

We are making an informed hire with this.

231

Jim Kanichirayil: There's something

in what you said that that triggered

232

one of my agency recruiter memories.

233

So one of the reasons why I have this

sort of position on a lot of these

234

assessments is that I was an IT recruiter

and one of the HR leaders that I talked

235

to when we are looking at doing a

search for them, they walked me through

236

their process and they said, we use

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insert tool name here.

238

And I asked them, how do you use it?

239

And they said, as soon as we get

an application that comes in, the

240

first response that they get from

our hiring team is we send them

241

the link to the assessment and

have them complete the assessment.

242

Already at that point I'm

thinking candidate experience.

243

I was like, ah, that's a pretty terrible

candidate experience, but keep going.

244

And then I said, okay, what do you do

with the response when they come back?

245

Because I'm already anticipating that

they're gonna have a lot of fall off if

246

that's the first step in their process.

247

And what they described as a

researcher, like to my brain,

248

I was like, oh, and a recruiter,

I was like, oh, this is terrible.

249

So what they said was, we get the

response, we look at it compared

250

to our benchmark, and if it doesn't

meet our benchmark or ideal profile,

251

we don't even talk to those people.

252

And I'm like, oh, that's really bad.

253

So if people are using assessments that

way, in that hiring process, what are the

254

gaps that they need to be thinking about

255

that creates not only candidate

quality issues, but potential

256

compliance issues too.

257

Kiley Ewing: I'm less concerned about

the compliance issues because we don't

258

collect information on gender or race.

259

So there's no discrimination.

260

We're doing based on data.

261

In fact, this is actually more of an

unbiased process than anything else.

262

we're making informed decisions

based on strengths and whether or not

263

you're gonna actually enjoy the job.

264

Honestly, I'd rather have people who like

doing the tasks we're about to assign

265

to them versus people that were gonna be

forcing square peg, round holes situation.

266

I'm less concerned about

the compliance stuff.

267

What I would say is, my top performer

on our sales team, aside from our

268

leaders, she does not fit the benchmark.

269

So I have a breathing, walking

example of an exception that we never

270

would've hired if we were excluding

everyone who didn't fit the profile.

271

So I look at their experience and I say,

okay, they don't fit the sales profile

272

per se, but their entire career history

is sales, that probably means that they've

273

come up with some systems that work for

them and they actually do enjoy sales.

274

So it's not a square peg,

round hole situation.

275

In fact, they've learned how to

adapt to what the role requires.

276

So I do wanna talk to that person

because if they're saying, hey, I like

277

sales and I wanna do this, then who

am I to say, nope, you're not a fit.

278

when their history is

telling me, yes, they are.

279

So it's a balance.

280

You have to use critical thinking and

leverage the tools at the same time.

281

And I think that's where maybe some

organizations are getting it wrong or not

282

quite right, and they need to have more of

a hybrid blend of the best of both worlds.

283

Because I am a big believer that

AI is not gonna replace humans.

284

The humans need to know how to

leverage the AI correctly in

285

order to get the most out of it.

286

Jim Kanichirayil: So that last bit of

what you said, I really like, you're

287

hinting at more of a human in the lead

versus a human in the loop philosophy.

288

And you and I are on the same

page there where I think a lot

289

of people think that they can run

a lot of these implementations

290

that involve AI on autopilot,

and we know that's not realistic.

291

It might never be realistic.

292

but I want you to say a little

bit more about the validation

293

process that you go through.

294

You implemented this AI

assessment component.

295

You have the human

validation portion of it too.

296

How does that show up in the

interview process so that you're

297

either confirming or rejecting what

the benchmarks are telling you?

298

Kiley Ewing: Yeah.

299

This tool, maybe unlike some of the other

tools out there, has a customized GPT.

300

Her name is Aria, and you can

interact with Aria at any time

301

about a profile in the system.

302

So I can go into Aria before

an interview and say, Hey, what

303

questions should I ask this candidate?

304

Here's the job description

they're applying for.

305

This Aria already has their profile on the

backend, and I just have to say based on

306

their blind spots and the job description.

307

What questions should I ask

in this upcoming interview?

308

Aria will kick out some questions

for me to ask that will specifically

309

be pointing at some of the challenge

areas that they may have in this job.

310

It's helping me get more precise

with my interview questions and get

311

meatier answers from the candidate.

312

and then again, I have to use my

brain too in this process and in the

313

conversation I have with the candidate,

if I'm hearing something that's

314

not quite making sense in my head.

315

I double down on it and ask

a second level question.

316

Like if they say something that's not

quite fitting what their profile's telling

317

me, I'll ask them to elaborate on that

or say, Hey, can you share an example

318

of that with me and go a layer deeper so

that we can get more context or get more

319

detail or perhaps catch 'em in a lie.

320

I don't know.

321

'cause a lot of times, especially

if you're interviewing salespeople,

322

they're gonna tell you what you

wanna hear, and so you have to be

323

very discerning in the process.

324

Thomas Kunjappu: This has been

a fantastic conversation so far.

325

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

326

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

327

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

328

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

329

can all thrive in the age of ai.

330

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

331

community.

332

Now back to the show.

333

Jim Kanichirayil: I like what you said

about digging deeper in the interview

334

process to flesh out the story.

335

What are some good examples of second or

third level questions that you can ask

336

that really help you identify the depth of

a candidate's capabilities or abilities.

337

Kiley Ewing: Yeah.

338

It's almost sometimes what they're

not telling me, if I can't get the

339

answer I need to hear, it's almost

like that's how I disqualify them.

340

I'll give you an example.

341

I was interviewing a guy, he was applying

for a sales role and I always ask

342

sales professionals what motivates you?

343

Any really driven sales professional is

gonna have a very lengthy answer for this.

344

One, it should involve money.

345

Two, it should involve something

related to their family or things they

346

wanna experience or just big goals

that they have because most driven

347

sales professionals have huge goals.

348

This guy couldn't tell me anything he

said his family motivates him and he

349

just really likes building relationships.

350

Stock answer, right?

351

So I said, tell me some of the things

that you wanna do with your family or some

352

of the goals you have for your family.

353

Spend more time with my

family was his answer.

354

He wasn't giving me anything of

substance with this question, so

355

it was almost what he didn't say

that told me what I needed to hear.

356

So a lot of times it's not exactly

what they're telling me, it's

357

what they're not telling me.

358

that's giving me more

information than anything else.

359

Jim Kanichirayil: No,

I like that example.

360

The motivation example is a good one.

361

Although I'd probably not give you the

answer that you're looking for either.

362

'Cause, when I'm one of those sales

people that don't fit the mold of

363

what a typical assessment tells you.

364

and generally speaking,

it's like whenever I look at

365

organizations that I want to join,

366

it's mission and product.

367

If I believe in the mission and I actually

think it's a great product, those are the

368

biggest drivers of me deciding, Hey, this

is someplace that that I wanna work for.

369

The external and internal

motivation piece beyond a certain

370

level, like that evens out.

371

for most folks.

372

I think one of the other things,

like for people that are listening

373

to this conversation and they want

to think about how do you better

374

qualify a potential candidate?

375

I think Lou Adler has done a

bunch of stuff where he talks

376

about outcomes based recruiting.

377

So you always have the job description

stuff, but one of the conversations

378

that you should be consistently looking

at or having a conversation with your

379

hiring managers about is what are

the outcomes that this person needs

380

to deliver if a year from now you're

thinking that they're a great hire?

381

That's one of the questions that I'd

always ask from a recruiting perspective.

382

Because then it actually opens up

your candidate pool for high potential

383

candidates that have delivered at a

level that you're looking for or super

384

experienced candidates that might be

overlooked because of their tenure.

385

But if they've repeatedly done

this key deliverable that you're

386

looking for, they should be

under your consideration set too.

387

And then baking in behavioral

questions underneath it.

388

That's pretty standard.

389

But that should be like a key

recruiting part of the process.

390

One thing that I'm thinking

about, so you've implemented

391

this AI solution on the TA end.

392

As you grow from a TA perspective, how

have you factored in the growth of the

393

TA side into utilization of the platform?

394

How do you embed outcomes-based

recruiting into your hiring process?

395

Kiley Ewing: Well, I wanna comment

on something you mentioned just now.

396

You talked about what I would

call company competencies, and

397

we call 'em role competencies.

398

So when we think about is this person

gonna be able to do the job, part A, part

399

B is, be a good addition to our culture?

400

We can break that down into role

competency, company competency.

401

So when I look at a job description,

I'm breaking it down into role

402

competencies and company competencies.

403

Which company competencies

are just our core values?

404

So how are they exhibiting the

core values of our company?

405

In their day to day life already.

406

So are they aligned from a company fit?

407

And then can they do the job?

408

So one A is, are they gonna be

a good addition to our company?

409

One B is, can they do this job?

410

And arguably, company competencies

are the first priority because I don't

411

want somebody that's a great fit for

the role but can't mesh with the team.

412

'Cause we all know that doesn't work.

413

So that is something that carries

through from the very beginning,

414

not only in the job description,

but what I interview for and then

415

from a performance management standpoint,

when we do reviews, it's gonna be what we

416

evaluate them on so it doesn't go away.

417

And then when we incentivize and

we reward and we give out spot

418

bonuses, we're doing it based on

those values and the competencies

419

that we originally looked for.

420

So everything is super cohesive

throughout the employee journey.

421

Jim Kanichirayil: So one of the

things that I'm wondering about, you've

422

implemented this AI solution, you're

going through a pretty aggressive

423

scaling, process in the upcoming years.

424

What infrastructure have you put

into place to make sure that the

425

solutions that you are putting in

now are have a high adoption rate

426

going forward as your team grows?

427

Kiley Ewing: Yeah.

428

So that is something that we

are keeping top of mind with

429

every decision we're making.

430

So Clear Company is another platform that

I'm in the process of implementing, and

431

this has an applicant tracking system.

432

This has a learning management

system, performance management.

433

All of it has AI baked into it.

434

So not only does it do what we need it

to do, but it's on the cutting edge of

435

what's most innovative right now in tech.

436

It's gonna be able to grow with us.

437

I've used this platform before about 10,

12 years ago, and they have innovated

438

significantly since I used it last time.

439

So it was just a no brainer for me when

I was looking for new tools because we're

440

moving away from a different applicant

tracking system, that we've just outgrown.

441

Nothing wrong with it, but we've outgrown

it and we need something a little bit

442

more advanced for where we're headed to.

443

And this system is cohesive.

444

And the other part of this is we're.

445

On a PEO right now.

446

So we don't really need an HRIS.

447

When we move away from the from the PEO,

and we're gonna be looking for an HRIS.

448

We'll look for one that

integrates with clear companies.

449

So this is a platform that in my

mind, is going to stay with us

450

as we continue to grow and bring

on a new tech system for HRIS.

451

So it's something that I'm thinking

about not only as a solution for

452

right now, but down the road so that I

don't have to redo all of this later.

453

Jim Kanichirayil: I wanna sit a

little bit in what you just talked

454

about and expand that a little bit.

455

There are people that are gonna

be listening to that part of the

456

conversation that are also thinking

about scaling their organization.

457

When you think about the technology

component of a transformation initiative,

458

what are the things that they need

to have checked off to make sure that

459

their technology portion of the scaling

exercise is right sized for where

460

they want to go as an organization?

461

Kiley Ewing: I'm in this HR Facebook

group and I see a lot of HR leaders

462

asking, Hey, we're looking for a new HRIS.

463

What do you recommend?

464

Terrible question to ask because I think

we do this so backwards all of the time.

465

One, you need to get

straight on what you need.

466

It's like saying, Hey, I need

to find a personal trainer.

467

Cool.

468

What are your goals?

469

Because that matters more than who your

recommendation is because your personal

470

trainer might be great for somebody who

has diabetes or is over the age of 60.

471

But they don't know anything about, if

you are a power lifter and you're trying

472

to compete at a national level, right?

473

So what kind of goals are

you trying to achieve?

474

Start with the end in mind.

475

That is like goal setting 101.

476

Most important thing I could

ever communicate to anybody who's

477

trying to grow in any kind of way.

478

Start with the end in mind,

figure out what you're trying to

479

achieve, and then find the product

that has all of those features.

480

And if you really wanna shortcut

the process for yourself, just tell

481

ChatGPT that you need these features.

482

What HRIS systems have these

features, or what applicant

483

tracking system has these features.

484

Use AI to help you find tools because

AI is way faster and more efficient

485

than any of my Google searches

would have been in this process.

486

That was all I did.

487

And just get better at asking the

right questions because I think when

488

we do that, then you can crowdsource

your referrals and say, Hey, have

489

you worked with this company before?

490

What's your feedback?

491

Get more specific.

492

Jim Kanichirayil: So I like your point

about getting more specific to build on

493

that a little bit, there may be value in

identifying companies like you who have

494

all gone through a similar transformation,

and then leveraging your community to find

495

out, okay, how did you make that decision?

496

What did you select and why?

497

That should be another component

of that process as well.

498

But what I really like about what

you described is again, beginning

499

with the end in mind, which seems

pretty cliche, but it's true.

500

And then identifying the feature set

that you want that's gonna meet your

501

needs now and also in the future.

502

There's a process component

of that I want to dig into.

503

Now, let's say you have a handful

of products that have the feature

504

set that you're looking for.

505

How should you evaluate how work is done?

506

In those platforms to make sure

that you have high adoption.

507

What are the things that you

look for when you're evaluating

508

workflows within a platform?

509

Kiley Ewing: This may not be

the right answer, but I look

510

at what does it look like?

511

The UI UX of a technology platform

is probably the thing that I

512

look at first and foremost.

513

If it looks outdated and

antiquated, it probably is.

514

And so many technology platforms

I looked at, I was like, have you

515

guys not innovated since 2000?

516

I don't know, it just looks like

their system is completely outdated.

517

And then once you get into it and

you find out it takes 12 clicks

518

to get to something super simple.

519

No, that's not gonna be an

efficient system for us to use.

520

So user interface is gonna

tell you a whole lot about

521

whether or not that system is.

522

One up to date, and two, how

quickly they've been innovating and

523

elevating their technology platform.

524

I'm not a technology expert by any means,

so that might not be the right answer,

525

but that is definitely something that I

feel like has been indicative of quality

526

of the technology that from my experience.

527

Jim Kanichirayil: I think what you're

describing from a UI UX is important.

528

I think the add-on to that piece, I

would make the case that the add-on

529

to that piece is understanding the

job that needs to be done and then

530

the process to how to get there.

531

Because if you implement something that

has a great UI, but the work process

532

in terms of the internal execution

is so far beyond where your current

533

state is, people aren't gonna adopt

it just because they're gonna look at

534

it and go, this is so far away from

like how I currently do what I do.

535

It's easier for me to keep doing it

my old way than adopt this new way.

536

the change management piece of how the

UI is laid out of how you actually do

537

your workflows in there is important too,

because if you haven't answered the change

538

management question, you're gonna have an

adoption problem on the back end of it.

539

Real good stuff there.

540

I wanna wind this back

into a different area.

541

You've implemented this and you're in

the process of implementing technology

542

suite as you work through the scaling

exercise, what are the implications

543

of what you're doing now on workforce

planning as you grow as an organization?

544

Kiley Ewing: Oh gosh.

545

All of it is preparing

us for a larger team.

546

So I have like the future org chart

already mapped out on a piece of paper.

547

it's not perfect by any means, but,

I have future org chart out and roles

548

that we're missing and probably future

positions we're gonna have to hire for

549

over the course of the next four years.

550

But if systems right now are

clunky for a hundred people,

551

it's gonna be even clunkier and

more difficult with 200 people.

552

So we have to fix those things first,

and then we'll be ready for the 200.

553

It can't be, oh, we'll just fix

it once the 200 are here, because

554

that is just gonna be chaos.

555

And I don't really wanna

deal with those challenges.

556

I'd rather be proactive right now so

that when we bring the people on, they're

557

like, man, onboarding was so smooth.

558

Working here is great.

559

What a great experience.

560

The culture here is phenomenal.

561

The operational workflows are so seamless,

and it's really easy to do my job.

562

And yeah, there's some challenges,

but we're finding solutions every day.

563

That's what I hope our people are

saying over the course of the next

564

few years as we continue to scale.

565

Jim Kanichirayil: I don't wanna

undersell what you just said,

566

because there's something really

important in what you just mentioned.

567

And for those that missed it, the key

thing that I pulled out from that is

568

you can't just throw technology or AI

against a bad process or a bad technical

569

infrastructure, you have to sort those

things out first and then whatever the

570

new state is, is gonna be better off.

571

If you've never worked on the fundamentals

of refining your process or defining

572

your process, refining your tech stack

and defining your tech stack, it's just

573

gonna make whatever problems you have

currently worse and more expensive.

574

So instead of a.

575

Less expensive, bad problem.

576

You have a really expensive, bad problem

that you're gonna be dealing with.

577

So I like how you you've mapped that out.

578

So you're six months in roughly, and

you have a lot of runway ahead of you.

579

And you've probably in

that short amount of time.

580

Already picked up some things that, oh,

I thought it was gonna be this way, but

581

it actually ended up being different.

582

What were the key lessons in that

transformation process so far that

583

you've picked up that's important for

other people to have on their radar?

584

Kiley Ewing: We have a

very collaborative culture.

585

One that is, unlike any other

organization I've ever worked with or for.

586

So it's to the point where I

have to slow down and bring other

587

people into the fold because.

588

I am used to just

charging full steam ahead.

589

And one thing I did not realize

is other people actually wanna get

590

involved and they wanna be a part of

these change decisions and the process

591

with me and they want to help out.

592

And it's not just one person

owning something and doing all

593

the heavy lifting themselves.

594

Everybody wants to lend a hand.

595

And even though they're not getting

paid extra for it, or it's not their

596

job per se, they still wanna help out.

597

It's a very cool and unique

culture to be a part of.

598

People here really love challenges

and want to embrace problem solving.

599

It is a fun and unique

place to be, and I love it.

600

I think that's the coolest part because I

have people every day coming to me saying,

601

Hey, I'd love to take on a new challenge.

602

What else can I do?

603

I would much rather have that

problem than the opposite.

604

Jim Kanichirayil: So you just

mentioned, you realized that you needed

605

to slow down to bring others forward.

606

What happened that it

set off that light bulb.

607

Kiley Ewing: My boss told me, slow down.

608

Our managing shareholder, oftentimes

has to say, Hey, slow down.

609

It's okay.

610

Take a deep breath.

611

you're going a million miles an hour.

612

And it's just my natural speed.

613

And you know what the cool thing is?

614

The Active Index tells me that my

intensity level is high, and there's

615

others inside of the organization

who also have a high intensity level.

616

So I know who my fast paced

people are, and then I also know

617

who my complimentary people are.

618

That will tell me.

619

Hold on, but did you think of this

and also did you remember this and,

620

how are you gonna get that done?

621

Oh, I hadn't thought about that.

622

And also didn't think to bring so

and so into the mix or ask so and

623

so what the history there was.

624

So it's really helpful knowing who

my more deliberate paced people are

625

because they really balance me out and

I feel like we're very complimentary.

626

Yeah, the Active Index told

me and my boss told me.

627

It's all in the best way possible.

628

Jim Kanichirayil: So you've gone a

fairly long way in a relatively short

629

amount of time and, you're embedding

AI across multiple functions across the

630

organization and having some pretty big

systems implementations going on as well.

631

So when you zoom out and you're in

a position to talk to other people

632

that are considering this journey or

maybe are even in the middle of it.

633

What are the key lessons and thoughts

that you would have for them in order to

634

pull off something like this successfully?

635

Kiley Ewing: I think my biggest

piece of advice would be

636

think like a business owner.

637

It came a little more natural to

me because I had my own business.

638

Prior to coming here and I was an outside

consultant for the firm for five years.

639

I was a business owner and I had to

figure out how to make my mistakes

640

and fail fast and recover and be

financially savvy and make decisions

641

like my own bank account depended on it.

642

And I still operate in the same way.

643

Which helps me in a tremendous way because

one, our managing shareholder and the

644

rest of our shareholders, respect my de

decision making ability because of that.

645

And I think all too often as employees,

we can into an employee mindset.

646

It's not my money, It

doesn't matter, right?

647

There's less risk in spending

someone else's money.

648

But I think when I approach decisions,

I've saved the company $400,000

649

in just my first six months here.

650

It's really important to think

about decisions like it's

651

your own business on the line.

652

And I think because I've done that,

it has produced really fruitful

653

outcomes for the team and our

business and our future growth.

654

And I would say that's my

biggest piece of advice.

655

And also invest in yourself.

656

Your success is never gonna outperform

your level of self-development.

657

So invest in yourself and

think like a business owner.

658

Jim Kanichirayil: Got it.

659

If people want to continue the

conversation with you, what's the best

660

way for them to get in touch with you?

661

Kiley Ewing: LinkedIn is

probably the easiest way.

662

Jim Kanichirayil: Cool.

663

We'll include that in in the show notes.

664

Really good conversation

Kylie and there's a lot here.

665

This could probably have been a

two hour conversation if we wanted

666

to get dig deep into these areas.

667

When I think through what we

talked about, there's two distinct

668

chunks of, information that I

think are really important for

669

people to pay attention to on.

670

The people side when you're looking at

any sort of transformation initiative,

671

and especially one that comes with an

AI wrapper around it to solve the people

672

side of the equation in terms of how you

structure your team, the thing that I

673

took away from the conversation is that

you did a really good job of defining the

674

lanes that people needed to operate in.

675

You paid particular attention in

playing to everybody's strengths.

676

And then, from a team construction

perspective, your mindset was let's

677

build a team around the gap so

that we have a complimentary set of

678

people in an organization that is

stronger than the sum of its parts.

679

So you're not bringing in people

that are gonna hate elements

680

of the job, that are required.

681

You're actually plugging them in based on

playing to their strengths, which offset

682

some of the weaknesses that you have.

683

So when you're solving for people, I think

those three lessons are pretty important.

684

From a process and technology perspective,

there are also three important lessons

685

that I took away from the conversation.

686

One was answering the question,

what am I trying to achieve?

687

What's the end goal that

I'm trying to get to.

688

And what should it look like

as I'm getting through there.

689

And when you answer that second

question, what should it look like?

690

You need to have line of sight into

what's the job to be done and then

691

what's the process of getting it done?

692

And those things come into play

when you're trying to evaluate

693

how your adoption is gonna be.

694

Because if your change management process

isn't mapped out well, and people in

695

the seat are looking at the process of

change as being too difficult, they're

696

gonna continue doing it the same old way

because the pain of actually switching to

697

something new is gonna be far greater than

the pain that they're going through now.

698

So if you're looking at executing a

transformation of any sort, having

699

those considerations in place is gonna

put you in a position to be successful.

700

So I appreciate you sharing that with us.

701

For those of you who've been listening

to the conversation, if you'd like the

702

conversation, make sure you leave us a

review on your favorite podcast player

703

and then tune in next time where we'll

have another leader hanging out with us

704

and sharing with us the keys that help

them future proof their HR organization.