Join us as we discuss the trial against Lori Vallow Daybell in connection with Charles Vallow's murder. Lori was charged with Conspiracy to Commit First Degree Murder and was ultimately convicted. We'll talk about the trial, new details we learned, Lori's "strategy" as well as the next steps for Lori after her conviction.
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Transcripts
Lindsey:
Hi, welcome to True Creeps, where the stories are true and the creeps are real.
Amanda:
We'll cover stories from grotesque gore to.
Lindsey:
The possibly plausible paranormal to horrifying history to tense and terrible true crime and.
Amanda:
Everything else that goes bump in the night. We're your hosts, Amanda, and I'm Lindsay.
Lindsey:
And we want you to join us.
Amanda:
While we creep, we cover mature topics. Listener discretion is advised. Hello, everyone. Today we are going to be talking about the Valo case and we have been covering this for years now.
Lindsey:
This is like one of the cases that Amanda has known so much about for a very long time.
Amanda:
It's intense. It's crazy.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
, and it was all the way from:
And if you're not familiar with the case, we will have a very brief overview of the case today. But this one is insanely complex and it includes like a million people, various states, and a lot of charges between those states.
Now, Laurie's Arizona trial just took place last week and we wanted to do an update on how it went, some new details that we found out, which were more than I expected, and discuss the verdict. We are going to focus on mainly the new stuff and how it relates to what we had already known.
And then just a few interesting notes about some things that happened before the trial. And just a note, Lori Valo will have a separate trial for the attempted murder of Brandon Boudreau.
And as of right now, it looks like it's going to be at the end of May, possibly June, but of course, that could always change. So let's start with a brief overview of the case and the charges for this trial.
Again, if you haven't listened to the other episodes, you should be able to follow along once we go over the overview.
And for the people that do know about the case, just know this is a high level overview because we could talk probably for hours, just about all of the insane details.
Lindsey:
I would say there is no less than 3 days, 15 hours of content that we have on just all of the cases and things surrounding Lauri. There is, it is a lot and it is super complex. Also, should you be listening and you're like, who is this? This is a lot of people.
If you go to our website, we actually have a list of the who's who. So if you are new to the case, so you're not, you're a little less lost. Yes, yes. Agreed.
Amanda:
So Lori Valow was married to her fourth husband, Charles Valow. Laurie had two kids, Colby and Tyler, from previous marriages. Charles also had two boys from a previous marriage named Cole and Zach.
Laurie and Charles adopted their son, JJ Valo. And JJ's biological father was Charles's nephew, which was the son of Kay Woodcock, his sister.
Lindsey:
ad Daybell at a conference in:
And then also, Laurie had some very strange religious beliefs that differed from the standard LDS religious beliefs. And this included that they were both translated beings so they didn't have to repent.
They also thought that some people were quote, unquote, zombies or were dark. When they describe this, it's almost kind of like possession is what it sounds like.
They also said that they knew about past lives together, and they believe they were chosen to lead the 144,000 in Idaho. And then they also thought that some people had special powers, like Chad had visions. And then.
We're really not going to talk about Salma Pastanes today. We've talked about her in other episodes, but they believed that she could control.
Amanda:
Storms and she was one of their friends.
Lindsey:
Yes. So as Chad and Laurie got closer and closer, how surprising that anybody who got in the way of this relationship began to be seen as dark.
And that included spouses, children, other relatives. Laurie was also pretty close to her niece, Melanie Boudreau, now Melanie Palowski and her brother, Alex Cox. She also had a friend named Melanie Gibb.
So between this group, there are so many texts that would have come out throughout the cases where we learn about their beliefs, their plans to get rid of people who was or wasn't dark.
And about Chad's visions, we also see a lot about them giving, like, blessings to each other and hyping each other up before things are about to go down.
Amanda:
And very disgusting stories written by Chad.
Lindsey:
Ugh. Yeah.
Amanda:
Just to add that in there, it's.
Lindsey:
Also like just very callous discussions about, like, what's going on. Oh, yeah, it's gross. And one of. One of the conversations is one that I had not recalled hearing, hearing before this trial, which was just so blunt.
And that's going to be closer to the end of the episode.
But in:
th of:
Amanda:
And that's what we're going to center this episode around for the trial.
Lindsey:
Yes. So we're going to give a little bit more context to the rest of the case so you can see how this fits in with the timeline of everything else.
So shortly after Charles's death in August, Lori relocated herself and her children, JJ and Tylee to Rexburg, Idaho. And this was very close to where Chad lived. Alex followed. So after they moved to Rexburg, Tylee and JJ were murdered.
The trial for this has already happened. Chad and Lori were both convicted for their murders as well as another murder that we're going to talk about in a moment.
ne, centers around an October:
Chad's then wife, Tammy Davel died by what was believed to be natural causes at the time. Then just two weeks later, Laurie and Chad went to Hawaii and got married. So there's a lot of shady going on.
Charles's sister, K, who we mentioned earlier, was very worried when she didn't hear from JJ for a longer period of time than was normal. And she contacted authorities to do a welfare check. And that happened on November 26th.
That's how all of this really started getting a lot of media attention because there was a search for the children. Laurie began to make up weird lies about where the children were, and she asked other people to cover for her, too.
Then same year in December, Alex dies. And just the day before, he received a blessing from Chad. So again, police are looking for JJ and Tylee and she refuses to produce the children.
ed that following February of:
So they start really pouring into digital records like cell phone data and icloud accounts and where people were and when and emails that were being sent. And they're interviewing everyone.
tigation continues throughout:
There they find the remains of Tyler and jj. And it's heartbreaking and disgusting.
That's when Chad was arrested, because Laurie's already in custody because she didn't produce the children when she was supposed to.
Amanda:
Right.
Lindsey:
So, fortunately, Chad and Lori were both convicted for the murders of Tyler, JJ and Tammy in Idaho. So that's already happened today.
The case that we're talking about are those Arizona charges against Laurie for conspiring to murder Charles, because, again, Alex died years ago, so they can't charge him with this murder because he's not around, unfortunately. Unfortunately.
Amanda:
So this has been a long time coming.
Lindsey:
Mm.
Amanda:
Charles was murdered first, and his family has been waiting for so long. We're really happy that we're able to cover this and see some more details as to what had happened.
Now before the trial, just because we thought it was really interesting, Lori decided that she was going to represent herself during the trial. And Laurie did an interview with Arizona family shortly before her trial started and discussed her reasoning why she chose that path.
And this is actually the second interview she's done in the recent months, which was interesting because we've never really heard her talk before. So according to Laurie, she came to Arizona with the intention of having a speedy trial. And now all of this is going to be from Laurie's perspective.
So it doesn't mean that it's all.
Lindsey:
Correct, but some of it might be.
Amanda:
When she spoke with attorneys, she brought up that the prosecutors have had five years to put the case together, and she would like to just go to trial.
Lori discussed that she was being housed in a pod with women facing the death penalty and that they have been waiting for years for their trial in jail. Lori said that, quote, Arizona has no intention of giving anybody a speedy trial, even though it's your constitutional federal right.
And because of that, Lori said, quote, I'm fighting for these women and trying to set a precedent here, but you can't just leave these women in jail for years because the conditions at the prison, if you do get convicted, are a million times better than they are at the jail. Jails are not designed to let you stay long term, which. Okay.
Like, I think that's the first time I've ever agreed with Laurie ever in the history of the world.
Lindsey:
Given if the facts that she said are true, I would Agree, Right. But that is presuming that she is not stretching the truth.
Amanda:
Of course. Of course. But the fact that there are people that are in jails all over the country that have been waiting for a long time, that's what I agree with.
Okay, I get that.
So when she brought all of this up to attorneys and that she would like the speedy trial, they told her, look, we can't do that because of course they want to go to court prepared. They can't learn all of this web of nonsense quickly to be able to represent her.
Lindsey:
No the correct way.
Amanda:
Way.
Lindsey:
Right.
Amanda:
And she even said that makes sense. It does make sense. She says that she has been working on her case, though, for five years.
So she knows her case better than any attorney can even learn it in two years.
Lindsey:
I do think what's interesting here is she's looking at this like, this is the case that I know. Here's my understanding of it.
And because she's not an attorney or a legal professional or for a person who looks at this kind of stuff a lot, she's thinking, I know all the facts of the case. Not I know all the evidence they found and the sheer volume of the information that they found.
You know, thousands of pages of phone records and GPS stuff and all of that alone, you can know your story front and backwards. But that kind of stuff, it takes time to go through.
Amanda:
It does. It does.
So because of that, along with if she were to waive her right to a speedy trial, she says that they could keep her there as long as they wanted. And so she just decided she would just represent herself.
She also mentioned that if a lawyer asks for more time, it auto waives your right to a speedy trial. And that's what's happening to so many women in the jail that she's talked to. This is Lori's take, by the way. Just saying.
Lindsey:
So of course, we were like, I don't know if that's true.
And look, perhaps there is a local rule, but if you're thinking of just like laws, generally, state versus federal, federal law and constitutional rights supersede state law. So if our constitution says that you have a right to a speedy trial, a state cannot take that away.
They can give you more protections for that speedy trial, but they can't take anything away.
,:
The court shall grant a continuance only if extraordinary circumstances exist and the delay is indispensable to the interests of justice. A continuance may be granted only for the time necessary to serve the interests of justice. That seems pretty specific.
And I'm not saying that there's not women in this particular jail who are feeling like their personal experience is not serving the interests of justice.
But also, in that same vein, if you don't understand everything it takes to build your defense, then it's kind of hard to gauge, like, what feels fair.
And if you have a public defender who has a lot of cases, there is only so much they can do at a time, even when they're doing their best and working as hard as they possibly can. So it might mean that things take a while because, you know, like, for so many reasons that aren't just. The system wants you in there.
Amanda:
Right. And it's not a great system.
Lindsey:
No, we've said it many times before.
Amanda:
It's not great.
Lindsey:
Things are messy.
Amanda:
Yeah. Things fall through the cracks, and it's horrific. But Laurie is trying to spend a little bit of time on some things that may not be 100% accurate.
Not saying that she's 100% wrong, but I'm thinking there's some pieces missing perhaps.
Lindsey:
Yeah. I also think that she's trying to, like, pageant around, frankly.
Amanda:
And she used to be in pageant, so she knows how to do this.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
So additionally, she brought up that she had told her attorneys in the last trial to bring certain things up and to say things a certain way, and they didn't. She didn't like that. So she wants to speak for herself this time. And just like Lindsay said, she's kind of doing the whole pageant routine here.
She brought up a lot of things to appear almost like a hero. And you're like, wow, she's not 100% wrong in the sense. Right. Jail system's messed up. Everything's kind of shitty.
Sometimes innocent people get stuck there, and there's no excuse for it.
Lindsey:
Right.
Amanda:
But she continues. She keeps talking. That's what kind of messes her up all the time.
She says, quote, there are intelligent, strong, beautiful women in here, and they have been here for eight years because of family tragedies. It's the same like my case. And she focuses on that again during the trial, by the way. We'll talk about it.
Lindsey:
But the fear, the pure rage.
Amanda:
Yeah. A family tragedy. And it's absolutely not. She also mentioned something about uplifting the women in jail. And that's her purpose, why she's there.
She believes God put her there to help the women there. And we're like, no, Lori, the reason why you're there is because you murdered people. And I.
I don't think my eyes could roll any harder listening to her talk about this.
Lindsey:
No, it's absolutely infuriating. It's like, yeah, this is a family tragedy. It's not your tragedy. You caused this. This is all because of the shit you did.
From what you hear about prison, women who hurt children do not fare well. And it might behoove her to try to kind of get on people's good side before she goes in.
Because since she's still in jail and she's not yet in prison, I'm sure she has to have some idea of the fact that it's not going to be a fun time for her, given what she's done.
Amanda:
Right. And she has been in five different facilities since being arrested in Hawaii. Because she started in Hawaii. Idaho.
She was moved for the trial in Idaho. Then she was in Arizona. So she's been all over the place. And she said, by far, Arizona has been the worst one.
It's hard for me to feel sympathy for her.
Lindsey:
But also Amanda's like, arizona does suck.
Amanda:
Arizona's garbage.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Things garbage. But I don't know, I kind of was like, okay, Laurie, you're finally feeling something. What?
Lindsey:
Self pity and self righteousness.
Amanda:
Self pity. But also she's not enjoying herself. And it finally, like, it made me feel a little bit better that she's not having a good time right now.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Because before, the way that she spoke, and she could be just playing it up, it seems like it hasn't been all that bad for her. And now she's like, oh, this is really bad. And again, jail system is garbage. Everything's garbage.
Lindsey:
No debating it.
Amanda:
I feel for the people who should not be in there. Absolutely. But she has every right to be there. Anyways, this interview was a very interesting watch. If you get a.
I think it was like 20 minutes, maybe. If you have that to watch it. I think everyone should. It's. It's interesting to see how she can win people over and come across as likable.
And I feel like that's kind of how she got away with so much of this for so long. Like, you kind of get to see it play out on video.
Lindsey:
Yes.
And I think that that is also one of the very interesting things that she tries to do at the trial is she tries to Be likable and charming and deferential and I don't want to say approachable, but that's kind of the vibe that I got that she, she tried to act like she's having a conversation with people. Right. And it just didn't fucking work.
Amanda:
Not this time.
Lindsey:
Because it was not the setting to be charming and all of those things. Right. It was the place to understand how it works. And we're going to talk about it as we go.
But like over and over, she just proved that she shouldn't have been her own attorney. Frankly.
Amanda:
Yes. Agreed.
Lindsey:
So we're going to present all of the new details and information that we learned about this case and the general excite case of these issues.
Because there's some stuff that we found out about, like how people talk to each other, but we're going to present it in the order that the jury heard it. There's lots of more information that they got.
It's just if it's not new, we're not covering it today because our outlines are already 30 pages long with just the new information. So just. So if you're like, why are they bouncing back around different topics? It's because we're telling you the information, how the jury heard it.
Amanda:
And the prosecutor left some of the last ones. Last for a reason.
Lindsey:
Yes.
Amanda:
So it's interesting.
Lindsey:
th of:
Amanda:
And I know I had mentioned before that I really wanted to go to some of the days, but unfortunately when it started, I was out of town. Yeah. So I was like, I was sad to miss it, but I'm glad that we were able to review all the footage. Yeah.
Lindsey:
The judge for this case was Judge Justin Bareski. And he, he did allow cameras in the courtroom, but required a 30 minute delay for the live stream.
I'd also point out that one of the very interesting things is in the last trial in Idaho, the cameras were looking right at Laurie, like right in her face. And this, it was really the back of her head, like it was like one position looking like straight down the middle. Ish.
So it wasn't, it didn't feel like it was made for like a true crime documentary. It felt like it was made so that the public could see what was going on, but not, you know, a thousand different angles and such.
So the trial itself was for conspiracy to commit first degree murder of Charles. The prosecutor was Trina K.
And because we have Kay Woodcock, who we talk about as Kay, we're going to refer to Trina K as Trina, because normally we would call her by her last name out of respect, but there's a reason why we're not cause just to keep things not confusing. And so Trina, the prosecutor, I mean, just right out the gate, she starts with information that we hadn't heard of.
So even just the opening statement itself, she included that Laurie had been drugging Charles by crushing up JJ's pills and putting them in his protein drinks. And that was according to one of the witnesses who we're going to talk about later.
She also said that Adam, Laurie's brother, had been talking to Charles about an intervention with Lori.
In this opening statement, she also talks about some of the text messages that we discussed in other episodes about Charles being Ned and Alex, Laurie's brother, staying very close to her. So another just. This was, like, not shocking, but we're just like, oh, we have never heard of this.
And so many people who are involved with this case and have been witnesses have given interviews and come forward in the media, and the fact that this person didn't makes them all the more credible. To me. That this is the first time we're hearing about them is in the interest of justice for Charles, because. Right.
Like, there's no, like, oh, let me go get an interview and get famous about this. It's simply, I want to help his family get justice for him. But.
So the night before Charles was murdered, he went on a date with a woman named Nancy Jo, and we'll talk about her testimony, which was fascinating.
So on the first day of the trial, a juror ended up being released because being there for the duration of the trial was going to affect them financially. And another juror was released on the second day of the trial, but we don't know why. And then get.
Another juror brought it to the court's attention that they may have seen a video about the case in the past on YouTube. So after they showed body cam footage during the trial, they were like, hey, I think I saw that on YouTube, but I didn't do more research.
I just was, like, present around. And he didn't remember much about it, so they allowed him to stay.
Also, just this part was very weird, but at one point, a juror pulled out their phone and was, like, typing. And so they had to, like, reach out later and be like, what were you doing? He's like, I'm sorry. I had to, like, make sure my daughter was awake.
And they were like, okay, but you have to turn off your phone. Like, you can't do that. Like you've been texting during a trial. Wild.
Amanda:
Yeah, that's weird. I didn't even know that they'd be able to have their phones in there.
Lindsey:
That was weird. Yeah, agreed.
Amanda:
So let's move on to Laurie's opening statement.
And she discussed life insurance for both of them, her and Charles, their marriage details, and that her daughter Tylee and Charles relationship wasn't always that great. And it became difficult when she became a teenager. And they were even meeting with the therapist about it.
Also, the arguments between Tylee and Charles escalated, according to her.
And personally, I thought it was interesting that she focused so much on the children, especially Tylee, only because Tylee could not come up and be a witness. And of course, they couldn't bring up that she had charges for murdering her in Idaho either.
Lindsey:
So throughout the trial, Laurie dances around that. So, okay, you can't bring up that there's another trial, but if the defense opens the door, the prosecution can walk right through it.
So, so many times Lori's like, we should open this door. And the judge is like, are you sure you want to talk about this thing? And it happens, like, over and over.
Amanda:
He, like, saved it a couple times.
Lindsey:
Yeah. And like, there is a little bit more of like, hey, are you sure? When it's a person defending themselves.
So, like, you know, I'm sure that that was part of it, but it is just kind of like, you know, if it was an attorney who was doing the shit that she was doing, first off, she would have an easy way of. Of claiming ineffective counsel.
But there's so many times where it was almost brought up because, like, if I was a juror, I would have been like, what aren't they saying right now? Like, it would have been so clear that I wasn't being told the full story.
Amanda:
Exactly. Yeah.
Lindsey:
But it's also interesting that, like, when you're talking about someone's conversation with another person, that's not admissible because it's hearsay.
And bringing it up in the ways that she did, when she did it seemed very purposeful because it's like, not only Tylee not testify, but there's also no ability to prove what was happening or what was said. Right. Like, her opinion on their relationship is completely subjective and completely fluff. Right.
It's just her opinion and she's on trial related to this murder. So of course she's going to be like, they argued.
Amanda:
Yeah, of course. Of course. She also discussed her point of view of the events that day. That Charles was killed.
So one of the first people to take the stand was Scott Cowden, and he's a Chandler firefighter, and he discussed CPR and his take on what happened after he arrived at the scene of Charles's death. He mentioned that if someone had performed cpr, there would be evidence of it, and that evidence would be impressions on the skin.
And then also he talked about how there's a crack that you feel when you first start doing CPR initially.
Lindsey:
Mm.
Amanda:
And so that was kind of hinting that CPR was not performed that day.
Now, this is interesting that he's talking about this, and also interesting, we didn't get to hear the 911 call, but when Alex Cox called 911 after shooting Charles Valo, the woman on the other end walks him through how to do cpr, and he's like, confirming as she's giving him the steps. So anyone listening would be like, okay, he tried cpr.
Well, Scott brings all this up only to discuss what he found that day as he entered, because, surprise, surprise, no CPR was done.
So when he discussed what Charles looked like, he mentioned that there wasn't much blood around him and that there was no depression in Charles's chest from someone doing cpr.
Also, if you think about it, if someone was shot, if you're pushing on their chest or anything around their chest, you would think that more blood would.
Lindsey:
Come out or you would say, oh, my God, I tried. And, like, this happened. Like, you would hear a person panicking when they tried.
Amanda:
Agreed. Agreed. And so there's. There's not the depression. There's no extra blood, nothing.
Also, because this was, I guess, protocol for Scott, he started doing cpr, and when he did, he felt that initial crack. And because of both those things, if I was a jury member, I'd be like, hmm, it seems like CPR was not done.
And then Scott goes on to say he doesn't believe that anyone performed CPR on Charles and that he was the first to do so that day. We kind of discussed this before, but it's good to hear a professional give their take on it and kind of confirm our thoughts. Yes.
Lindsey:
From this testimony and more testimony that we're going to talk about in a moment.
And throughout this episode, the prosecution is really painting a picture that the story that they were told does not match the crime scene and what was found. So they're walking him through cpr. It's pretty clear CPR was not performed.
So then the next witness, Kent Keller with the Chandler Fire Department, talked About how Charles body looked when it was found. Specifically, he's talking about lividity and skin modeling.
He describes modeling as sort of patchy looking skin that's caused by not enough oxygen getting to the skin and said it could have been from his heart not beating. From our understanding, it's that there's this self defense shooting per Alex and then he calls 911 right after.
So it's bizarre that this would have started happening this fast. Again, as I mentioned a moment ago, he also talked about lividity.
And if you've watched any like true crime show, you've heard them talk about lividity and livor mortis.
So lividity is when a person dies when they're in a position for a given period of time, the blood starts to drain from the tissue because of gravity and it drains to the lowest part of the body. It takes a little while after someone dies for that to happen. And we've also talked about this in other episodes.
The process by which, you know, the blood is draining from the tissues is called liver mortis. And so he's like, hey, it's kind of weird that this had begun if he had just now called 911. And so again he's saying it's self defense.
The story is later that he was attacked with a bat and that he was hit in the head. Yet there are ambulatory services available. He never has anybody check his head out.
Amanda:
And that's Alex.
Lindsey:
Yes. Part of what Alex says happened is that Charles struck him in the head with a bat and that is what prompted him to defend himself.
And yet when there was ambulatory services on the scene, he didn't ask for medical help. And you would think that if someone hit you over the head with a bat that you might be like, hey, can you check this out? I might be concussed.
And just because you don't see blood on someone's head doesn't mean that there's not something very serious that could have happened. Especially the baseball bat. Charles was a strong, healthy guy and.
Amanda:
He had a baseball background as well.
Lindsey:
Yes.
Amanda:
So there were several medical professionals that spoke during this trial saying that they never went and did anything to Alex because no one ever asked or even knew. Yeah. That he had gotten hit.
Lindsey:
Exactly, exactly. So we're starting off just so clear of we don't believe this story. Yeah, your story's. Yeah.
So then Daniel Coons of the Chandler Police Department, in his testimony, he talked a lot about how much blood was found and he mentioned that he didn't see any blood on Charles's arms or other extremities. There was very little blood on his chest. There was no blood on the floor near Charles's body, but there was blood pooling underneath of him.
They showed photos of the home during the trial and you could see that there, there wasn't blood like trailing around. Think you're getting into a fight with somebody and you shoot them because you were scared for your life.
It's just bizarre to think that it would be clean and there was no evidence that it was cleaned up. Correct?
Amanda:
Correct.
Lindsey:
So that's the other part of it that's just so strange. If you kill someone in self defense, why would you clean up? So it doesn't really match again with what they're seeing.
Amanda:
Right, Right. Yeah. And just a little bit on the sink faucet. I think Alex mentioned that he had washed his hands.
But yeah, if there's a scuffle, especially with two guys fighting with a bat and a gun, you would think that there'd be a lot of blood somewhere. Right.
Lindsey:
It's also important to note that the residence that they were in was sparse. There wasn't any furniture. So when we're talking about like, was there evidence of a struggle?
There was very little items present to show evidence of a struggle. So even if they were like tussling and wrestling, you really wouldn't have seen anything. Unless they're like denting walls and things like that.
So that makes it a little bit harder.
Amanda:
Yeah. The walls or the mirrors? There were large mirrors in that room.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
So the witness that we brought up before who was new and had all new information, her name was Nancy Johan, and Charles had sent her a message on an LDS dating site and the two texted and talked a lot in that time. Charles was open about his struggles with Laurie and their separation.
She knew that he worked in some sort of life insurance or with money, but didn't really focus on that in the conversation. Nancy is LDS and confirmed a lot of stuff that Charles had told her about. Laurie was definitely outside of their beliefs.
And because we haven't talked about Charles for a while, Nancy said some really nice things about him, so we just wanted to mention it. Nancy said that he was very funny, he was kind, had good banter, and he seemed like a pretty awesome guy even with all of the craziness around him.
So the two met for the first time in person on July 10, and that would be the only time that they got to meet.
So the night before he was killed, Charles's plane was delayed that evening, but they went to a restaurant, and then they ended up talking until it closed. And then even after it closed, they're like, we still want to continue our conversations.
So they were outside by her vehicle for a while longer and continued it. I thought that was cute. She mentioned that Charles was so excited to see JJ the next day and take him to school.
And she described him as, quote, like a kid on Christmas morning. He was very excited to see jj. That just broke my heart, the way that she was talking about him. Like, he was so happy to see his kid.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
He was also going to look for a place to live and meet with Adam, Laurie's brother. So she was aware of that at this point. He was in Texas, but he was coming back to Arizona. That was his intention.
Lindsey:
Nancy also noted that she was surprised by how Charles spoke kindly about Laurie despite everything that happened during their conversations. He also shared with her that he had changed his life insurance beneficiary to K.
And she had even said, like, based on everything you've said, you might want to let her know this. And he's like, yeah, I probably should. And Amanda and I were talking, and I was like, hey, isn't it kind of weird to talk about that in a first date?
But then we were like, okay.
Well, it also does make sense to be like, hey, I am married right now, but I want you to know that I am taking steps to, like, get out of this marriage. And changing your life insurance beneficiary is certainly, like, a concrete step. Yeah.
Amanda:
It's showing the distance that he's putting between them. Right. Like, yeah, I'm still gonna be the dad. We're still gonna share our kids, but we're not gonna do this anymore.
Lindsey:
Yeah. So they had loose plans to meet up the next day, which was July 11th.
So she texted him around 11 to ask how his morning with JJ had been, and she didn't get a response. She tried calling a few hours later, because, again, they had, like, loose plans, and she never got a call back.
And, you know, she has this date where he's very open, seems like a good guy. And so she's surprised because she's like, I thought this went well. So she's thinking, like, oh, he kind of ghosted me.
So then fast forward to December, and she's watching tv, and his photo shows up on the news, and that's when she finds out that Charles died.
Amanda:
Yes. I can't even imagine what was going through this poor woman's head. Like, yeah, I want to help Charles's family and be here for the trial.
But now this fucking lunatic has to ask me questions.
Lindsey:
Yes. It is also so bizarre because the whole vibe of Laurie is that almost like she's jealous that Charles went on a date with her.
And I'm like, dude, you were, like, cheating with your, I don't know, eternal, reincarnated, translated, closet, portal, thumb of a dude. Who are you? But anyway. But anyway. So Laurie's questioning.
She grills Nancy about why she would go on a date with a married man, which is just so fucking bizarre considering, like, her and Chad are writing, like, weird stories about each other. He's very into her leggings. They're very inappropriate. Incredibly inappropriate. So just the audacity of her to be like, he's a married man is wild.
But Nancy's like, well, he told me that he was in the process of getting a divorce and they were separated. That's known.
Amanda:
Right? We all know that. Yeah.
Lindsey:
And so Laurie's response is, did it surprise you later to find out that we were not in the process of a divorce? So Nancy pauses for a moment, and then, with all the confidence in the world, says, charles was in the process of a divorce. Yeah.
Amanda:
Like, this is the fact.
Lindsey:
We love to hear it, Nancy.
Amanda:
I loved it. Yeah, it was good.
Lindsey:
We love to hear it.
Amanda:
So Laurie seemed pretty upset while questioning her and even snapped at the judge at one point.
Lindsey:
Wild. That judge is like, I hope he had, like, just, like, the largest glass of wine every night, because you could tell he had to be stressed.
Amanda:
Right. And he saved her ass multiple times during this. So I'm like.
Lindsey:
He's like, I don't want to deal with this.
Amanda:
He's so nice.
Lindsey:
Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm exhausted for him.
Amanda:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Laurie then tried to ask her if Charles answered a text about being a good kisser, and the prosecutor steps in.
Is, like, relevance and harassment.
Lindsey:
Absolutely not just dude.
Amanda:
Right, right. And you could tell Laurie's so pissy about this too.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And something interesting that we noticed is she continually, when talking about Charles, says, my husband. And I'm like, how dare you?
Lindsey:
Just the sheer delusion.
Amanda:
Yeah. Yeah.
Lindsey:
They thought that he had been dark and he had been this Ned character since, like, February.
Amanda:
Wasn't her husband at that time. That's a good point. Yeah. You're already undermining what you said.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
So Laurie's questioning. Right. And she.
You could tell she's upset, she's angry, and she's digging a little bit deeper about the date and how he said all the details of his life and their life together on this date. And Nancy's like, I'm telling the truth.
Lindsey:
I also just find it fascinating that she's so hung up on this that she's not defending herself.
Amanda:
Right.
Lindsey:
Regardless of her feelings on it, you know, whatever. She had them. But the purpose of what's happening is for her to advocate for herself. She's saying, I'm the best advocate for me.
And yet here she is getting swept up in her feelings rather than in logic and being like, it actually doesn't behoove me for you to continue to talk about what an amazing human he is. That only makes the jury not like me. The interaction, it wasn't doing Laurie any favors is my point here.
Yeah, this is why people should not defend themselves.
Amanda:
Right? Right.
And I think this was my favorite part of that particular day, because Laurie then says, so you spent your whole date getting to know each other, talking about me? And Nancy just looks at her and says, don't flatter yourself. No, we did not spend the whole time talking about you.
Lindsey:
Part of getting to know someone is getting to know their lore. And when you have this batshit person as part of your lore, it's gonna come up. But again, Laurie assuming that everything is about her at all times.
Yeah, she's definitely making the jury love her.
Amanda:
Exactly. Exactly. So Laurie asks about texts after dinner as well.
And Nancy says that they did text after, but really couldn't remember the time frames of the text. Laurie then asks, what did you discuss in those text messages? And that is objected for relevance because why? That has nothing to do with anything.
Laurie then says, nancy mentioned something about hearing a lot of things about his wife. You didn't say ex wife.
Lindsey:
You said wife.
Amanda:
Nancy says, okay, sure. And then Laurie asks, what were a lot of things? So she wants to know everything they talked about in relation to what they may have said about her.
And then Nancy replies, the things I testified to. And then Laurie asks, can you be more specific? So again, she's just like, I need to know everything you guys talked about about me.
And Nancy kind of looks a little puzzled, and she's like, can I do a narrative? And the judge has a conversation. It can't be heard in the room.
And the judge comes back and says, quote, the last question the defendant asked of the witness was along the lines of, what things did you discuss about me? Meaning the defendant, are you sure you want her to answer that question? Because you are opening up a really big door.
I'll allow her to Answer the question. If you want her to answer the question and there's no objection from the state, we'll bring the jury back in and we'll have her answer the question.
You hear Trina, Immediately. Before that even leaves his mouth. No objection.
Lindsey:
She's like, we'd love to hear it. Inevitably, part of this conversation is going to have to include the kids.
Amanda:
Yes.
Lindsey:
And bringing up how much he loves his kids. And even, hear me out. If he was like, you know, Laurie and I don't get along, but she's a great mom.
Even that isn't good for her because she's talking about her children in the past tense. And that happens throughout the trial. Tyler's not testifying. She's also not there.
And she would have been an adult, so it wouldn't have been completely unreasonable that she might be there to support her mom, even if J.J. was too young. Still, I'm not saying that they should have been if they were alive.
I'm just saying their absence is so palpable, any mention of them looks very bad for her.
Amanda:
It does. But then also, she's digging for information from these texts that can be horrible things about her still.
You know, like, it can't be, I'm worried about my children being with her, or, you know, I'm excited to go pick up jj. I know he'll be safe with me tomorrow. You know, who knows what could have been text. Yeah, but she's so vain and obsessed with herself.
Lindsey:
She's throw.
Amanda:
Like you said, she's kind of throwing it away to be like, but what did you say about me?
Lindsey:
That's my point, though, is that worst case scenario for her, he says terrible things that the jury gets to hear, but best case scenario, he says lovely things about her. And then this happened. She's so callous about his death and doesn't even seem to care.
Amanda:
There's no winning.
Lindsey:
It doesn't benefit her in any way. I'm sure that's why the prosecution was like, love to hear it. Go for it. Go wild.
Amanda:
Yeah, exactly. Now, at this point, she mentioned something like, I have a lot more questions. So they're like, all right, let's take a lunch break.
And then when they returned, surprise, surprise, she did not ask that question.
Lindsey:
She did have consulting attorneys there, so I'm sure they were like, knock it the fuck off.
Amanda:
Yeah, chill, please. So, as you can already hear, the questioning from Laurie was kind of a shit show. And at one point, she confirmed with Nancy that.
That it would be fair to say that she Only knew Charles for a week from July 3rd through the 10th. Nancy answers, yes. Laurie followed with, you had no contact with him after that. And Nancy's like, well, he was dead.
Lindsey:
Oh, my God. Laurie.
Amanda:
Like, what?
Lindsey:
Laurie? Laurie. So Nancy Jo has this date, this experience, this information. We don't know when she went to the police.
We don't know when she became involved in the case, other than it was likely after she heard about things, which was in December. But she never came forward to the news or anything like that. But she did contact Kay, and that is one of the things that Laurie asked about.
So she said that she reached out to Kay to express her condolences, and she also talked to her a little bit more about, like, the things that Charles had talked to her about. She talked about how much Charles loved JJ and Laurie cut her off at that point and went, thank you, that's enough. And then ended her questioning.
Amanda:
Bizarre, right? It's just like, yeah, okay, we're done. You're saying too many nice things.
Lindsey:
Yeah. And so you have your own witness, you do your questions, then you have a cross examination.
And then the original party who calls that witness can do a redirect. So Trina did that next. And so she had a couple questions for Nancy Jo.
So Nancy Jo mentions during this redirect in response to Trina's questions that she was pretty upfront with Charles with the fact that he is going through a divorce, and it's going to be hard for him to find someone who wants to be serious with him while he's still married. And that included her.
And so she said that she had, you know, she had planned to hang out with him again, and she had fun with him, but that she wasn't pursuing anything serious at that point because he was still married. And I think that that speaks to that fact of that original question of were you pursuing a married man? Right. That Laurie kind of threw at her.
And I feel like she's like, no. Like, he was at a phase where he was, you know, leaving that marriage. I wasn't trying to jump into a relationship with him.
I was just getting to know him.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
So after this redirect, the jury actually had a question for Nancy, and they asked if Charles expressed any verbal indications of stress.
And when the judge asked that, he was telling her to answer yes or no, and she kind of cut him off mid thing and was like, definitely, like, before he had even finished. So it was an absolute yes. So the next witness we're going to talk about is Christina Atwood.
And Trina actually referenced some of what she's going to testify about.
In her opening statement, Christina talked about meetings that we already knew about, including where Laurie had some friends doing castings to pray for the, quote, dark spirits to be cast out of someone. And that someone was Charles. During one of those get togethers, Alex said that he wished he could just kill Charles, and he said it more than once.
And per Christina, Laurie never reacted to these statements and never said anything like, hey, you can't stay. Stuff like that, or, no, you can't kill my husband. I feel like the silence speaks for itself, but.
Amanda:
Yeah, yeah.
Lindsey:
You know, Laurie also mentioned that she was crushing up some of JJ's meds and putting it into drink mixes for Charles to drink.
Amanda:
Wild.
Lindsey:
Yeah. And so Christina tells Laurie later on, she's like, hey, I'm a little worried about all these things that I'm hearing.
And she said, if something happens to Charles, I am going to go to the police and tell them about this. And Laurie's like, no, we're just being silly. You're just being dramatic. Wild.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Laurie here has no questions for Christina, which I think is really interesting, because if she wanted to suggest that Christina was taking things out of context or blowing things out of proportion, it would have been a good time to do so. Right. Like, oh, did Alex say that right before he made a joke? Did I say this and then say, just kidding, I would never do that? Right. Like, she's not.
She didn't even try to impeach Christina's testimony.
Amanda:
No. She's just like, all right, it is what it is.
Lindsey:
She seems relatively resigned at a certain point.
Amanda:
Yeah. Yeah. So then Adam Cox took the stand. That's Laurie's brother.
And he discussed their family, Laurie's beliefs, Laurie and Charles's marriage, and his plans with Charles to do an intervention for Laurie. They wanted to record it and show it to the stake president of their church to hopefully revoke her temple recommend.
He landed in Arizona July 10, and he was supposed to stay with Alex. However, he couldn't get a hold of Alex, and that was very strange. So imagine, like, asking your brother, hey, can I stay with you?
I'm going to be in town. And he's like, yeah, sure, he knows he's coming. Right? Like, he should have been ready for this. And then he just ghosts him.
So because of that, he ended up staying with his parents. So he hung out with them.
And then his son Zach, he reviewed the text messages between him and Charles, planning the intervention, how they would record her and then the text the morning that Charles went to pick up jj. Charles text him that morning, but nothing afterwards. His family never told him what happened. So Adam had no idea.
He was chatting with a friend when he went to go visit him in Tucson. And he was like, this is strange that Charles never got back to me. They googled his name and that's how they found out.
Lindsey:
That's so bizarre to me because you would have assumed that somebody in their family would have said something to him.
Amanda:
Yeah, exactly. So he called K because he's like the only person I'll believe is Kay. Then he called his mom, who already fucking knew about it.
So then him and his son Zach went to go chat with her and apparently the conversation did not go well and it created a break in his relationship with his mom. And as we've seen before with an interview that was years ago between Laurie's mom and sister, they were on her side. Right.
They went out to the world and said Laurie could never do anything wrong when the kids were missing. She would never hurt her kids is what they said to the world. And so just wild and sad for poor Adam.
Just trying to navigate, you know, like he's trying to do an intervention to help his friend, his brother in law.
Lindsey:
For his sister, which just comes from a place of love. Right.
Like, you don't have an intervention for someone who you don't care about, even if they were like, hey, we're trying to make you not be able to do stuff with our religion. Right. At the end of the day, Charles could just be like, I'm getting a divorce. I'm going to go for full custody.
Tyler was nearly an adult, so like, he could have kept a relationship with her if he wanted to. It's not as though he had to be a nice guy.
Amanda:
No, exactly. And so this is partially the reason she probably took Charles's phone.
We know that that is what happened that morning and why he didn't just pick up JJ and leave immediately is because she took his phone. And they purposefully did not tell Alex, anyone in the family and obviously her about the intervention.
And so I bet, I mean, she was looking through it and saw this and probably got pissed off.
Lindsey:
Yeah. So the next witness was Serena Sharp.
And she discussed how she met Laurie, her beliefs and their interactions during visits, including one after Charles was murdered. And this particular visit was the end of July.
And she says that it was sometime between the end of July and early August and Laurie had invited a group over. And I mean, mind you, we're Less than a month from Charles's death.
Amanda:
Right.
Lindsey:
And Laurie doesn't really seem affected. She's not mourning, she's not crying. And that seems bizarre. Right.
You would think that there would be some type of feeling because even if she didn't want to be with him anymore, this is still a person she was with for 15 years. So that's suspicious.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
When Laurie Cross examined her, she spoke very forcefully and she asked her to specifically repeat what was said about zombies during one of the get together weekends and ask questions about LDS beliefs.
Amanda:
I thought that was the only smart thing that Laurie did is like, well, you heard this, so tell me exactly what I said and when. And she's like, well, I can't.
So, like, I felt like that was kind of good on Lori's side, but she was focusing a lot on LDS beliefs as well and, like, asking her specific questions. And I. I'm not of that faith, so I didn't quite follow 100%, but. Interesting.
Lindsey:
Okay, so if you've ever gotten into an argument with somebody who you love and you care about and they're focused on not being wrong and they're not focused on the impact of what whatever happened did. Right. We're like, no, but I'm not wrong. Yeah. And throughout the trial, that's one of the things that I feel like Laurie is hell bent on proving.
She's hell bent on proving that she's not wrong, not that she didn't do something wrong. It's that, like, she's like, well, do you know this? I'm not wrong. Like, my beliefs aren't wrong. This isn't wrong. My point of view is this.
And this is the way it should be because it's my point of view.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
We're not going to get into it too much, but for the last witness, like, grills him about, like, his religious understanding and it's like, this is not necessary. Does not behoove you to do this.
Amanda:
I think she was trying to also show that some of the things that people were talking about that her and Chad were saying were part of LDS faith, but, like, skewed.
Lindsey:
Oh. Like it wasn't too off the wall.
Amanda:
Yeah. I think that was her goal. That's my guess.
Lindsey:
I think that that makes sense. I just don't think it came through.
Amanda:
No. No.
Lindsey:
So the next witness was retired police detective William McDonald, and he discussed getting information off of the cell phones. Laurie didn't have any questions on a cross exam, so we didn't learn any new information from Trina's original questioning of him.
And Laurie didn't have any cross examination questions, but the jury did have questions for him, which I do like that the jury was proactive and was like, no, we want to understand this, but I don't think that this was necessarily like a question for this case.
I think they were like, I just generally need to know this, because they asked, if someone deletes their browser history, can you still get their history? And Detective McDonald said on occasion, if it's more recent, that information can be recovered by software.
And more recent meant within the past year.
Amanda:
Interesting, though. Because.
Lindsey:
Interesting.
Amanda:
Yeah. If you want to look at it from this case, anything that Lori's like, oh, I'll just delete it. And they'll never know. They're like, just kidding.
Yeah, we're going to see everything.
Lindsey:
Digital footprints, man.
Amanda:
But also horrifying.
Lindsey:
Yes. And so perhaps what I would say was the most heartbreaking testimony was Kay Woodcock, which was Charles's sister.
We've mentioned her before, but she talks about how she found out that her brother had died. So her nephew Cole called her the day after he died and said that Laurie had texted him and told him that his dad was dead.
And when Cole spoke with Kay, he was like, I'm confused. Like, what's going on? And Kay's like, I am at a nail salon. I also don't know what's going on. So she calls Larry. He's like, okay, I'll look into it.
He Googles around. And then he calls her back and is like, this is true.
And for a little bit of context, if you're not super familiar with the case, after Charles died, Laurie texted Zach and Cole, Charles's sons, that Charles had died. A text? Not even a call.
Amanda:
Yeah, the text she. She sent the day after, by the way. So whole day after, in the late afternoon, it was at 4:36, at least from the screenshot that I could find.
And it says, hi, boys. I have some very sad news. Your dad passed away yesterday. I'm working on making arrangements and I'll keep you informed with what's going on.
I'm still not sure how to handle things. Just want you to know that I love you and so did your dad.
Lindsey:
Disgusting. Disgusting. Yeah.
And so in addition to barely notifying his family, she doesn't even really keep up communication with them or fill them in once they are aware.
And when she was testifying, Kay broke down a little bit at this part because, I mean, look, she was married to Charles for 15 years, which means that she was part of their family for 15 years. She was taking care of JJ, which was Kay's grandson biologically. So obviously they trusted her. They cared about her.
So, like, this is this person who was important in their life who's just being so reckless with their feelings.
Amanda:
Right.
Lindsey:
And she also talked about what she knew about what was going on in Charles and Laurie's relationship at that point. She said that she had helped Charles move out and that there were a few family events where, you know, Charles came, but Laurie didn't show up.
She even said that at one point, Laurie said she didn't want J.J. or Tyler anymore.
Amanda:
Heartbreaking.
Lindsey:
Heartbreaking and disgusting. And the thing is, if that is true, then you just call your family and you say, hey, I can't do this. That was all it took.
One uncomfortable conversation could have saved so many people's lives. Murder was not the only option here.
Amanda:
Right. And it was clear that Kay would have taken JJ at any moment.
Lindsey:
Oh, yes. Yes.
Amanda:
Right. Any moment.
Lindsey:
1. Also, like, although not blood related to JJ, Laurie's siblings, other than Alex, who was clearly a shit show, they also cared about him. Right.
Like, it wasn't as though they were like, eh, we don't give a shit about him. We only care about Tyler. They loved him, too.
So I can't even imagine thinking that this someone couldn't do this and then being like, oh, my God, I was complicit.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
But anyhow, so getting back to K's testimony. So when she found out that Charles died, she was in Arizona by noon the next day, and one of her primary concerns was jj.
She had to wait to talk to detectives, but when she did, she was like, I'm worried that JJ's not safe, and I'm worried that he may have seen something, which is fair.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
So Charles's remains were cremated, and they were sent to Kay's office with a few of his belongings, as well as his letterman's jacket. Laurie gave Kay and the rest of their family permission to go to his house in Houston, Texas, to get whatever they wanted.
But when they got there, Charles's personal belongings and JJ's didn't seem to be there. So then we mentioned. Right. That the beneficiary changed for his life insurance.
Kay also mentions that when Laurie found out that Kay was the beneficiary, she sent K a screenshot of the information and was like, is this why you want jj? As though the only reason she would want to take care of him would be for money. Disgusting.
So they have a service for him And JJ was supposed to attend with Kay, but then Laurie changed her mind. She said that they were too busy and that it would be too confusing for JJ to go.
Amanda:
That's sad. Charles was, like, JJ's biggest fan.
Lindsey:
Yes. And also JJ was being raised by Laurie and Charles, but Kay and Larry, that was their boy.
And, like, one of the things that gets me the most about the entire situation, the entire case, is there's a documentary where they're following Kay and Larry, and they are there. The moment that Larry finds out that JJ has died, and the sound that comes out of him is just like. It's a whale. Right. So it's this grieving whale.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
And it's like, he was so loved. And they talk about how much they love Tyler, too, because, again, blood doesn't make a relative. Right.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
So it just breaks my heart so, so much about so much stuff that just didn't need to happen.
Amanda:
Right.
Lindsey:
That image burned into my head or.
Amanda:
That moment in that documentary.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Is burned into our heads forever. And every time I see Kay, especially Lar, but Kay and Larry together, all I think of is that moment, and then it makes me cry.
Lindsey:
Yeah. Yeah.
Amanda:
So K fired back at Laurie and some of the questioning, and I feel like in Kay's face, you could see the anger and the hurt, understandably and especially like you're being questioned by the person that killed your brother and killed your grandbaby. What a weird, horrible situation to be put into.
Lindsey:
Also, if there was ever a time for her to not question someone, this was it.
Amanda:
Oh, yeah. There's nothing she could say that's gonna help her.
Lindsey:
There's nothing that she's gonna say that could help her.
If she makes it look like Kay lied, the gotcha moment isn't going to work in her favor because she's still getting a gotcha moment against the victim's family. And Kay is always very articulate, always so well spoken and clear, but also not shy to show emotion. Right.
And I just don't know what she was thinking.
Amanda:
Yeah. And the questions that she asked, I don't see how in any way this could have helped her.
Lindsey:
Mm. Mm.
Amanda:
It was dumb. But the first one, this is the one where I'm like, what the fuck, Laurie? What are you doing? Laurie asks.
You weren't really aware of the events that happened that morning, were you? And K says something along the lines of the morning of the murder.
She may have said Charles's murder, but it was, like, hard to hear with the camera being so far. Laurie quickly says, July 11th. And Kay says, no, I wasn't, because you didn't tell me. And she just stone face says this to her.
Laurie then said, did you see or hear or personally witness me conspire with Alex Cox to kill my husband, Charles Vallow? She wouldn't have been like, hey, sister of my husband, I'm going to kill him. Do you want to talk about it? Like, that wouldn't have happened.
So K obviously said no, but I saw a ton of evidence that did. And I was like, okay. Yeah.
Lindsey:
And here's just another point. If this was an offense, defense attorney who said that it would make sense.
Kay is talking about their relationship and where it was, how she was notified of his death, that Laurie seemed a little bit cold.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
None of these really prove that Laurie did it. It really doesn't. It just proves how Laurie was acting at the time. And people handle grief in vastly different ways. Right.
So a defense attorney asking that question and then saying, oh, have you ever been present for Laurie grieving? Like, do you know how she was handling it? Is it possible that she didn't contact you because she was heartbroken? Right.
Like, there are ways that they could have approached that where that question would have actually made a lot of sense.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
If literally anyone other than Laurie asked it.
Amanda:
Agreed. So after Kay mentioned the evidence, Laurie ended it. There, all done. And then just a note. Nate Eaton, the reporter from Idaho, we love him.
He's great. He interviewed Colby after court that day, which was Laurie's oldest son.
And he mentioned that he noticed how rude his mom was being and how disrespectful she was in court.
And I was just like, if your son is literally saying that, like, the whole world is looking at it, but he knows her, and he's like, she's being awful in front of the world right now. I just felt bad for him. And I know it was his birthday week, too. And so I was just like, this poor guy.
Lindsey:
Yeah. It hurts my heart because he lost his siblings. And one. I just. I can't.
I can't imagine losing a sibling, but I also can't imagine knowing that my mom did it.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
But so early in the investigations, and even when she was arrested, he was like, begging her to be like, tell me this isn't true, basically. Right. Like, in his interactions, he's like, what's going on? Because I'm hearing all this stuff. I don't want to believe it. Which. Who would want to?
Again, hurts my heart.
Amanda:
Yeah. Yeah. The next person was Dr. Derek Baumgartner. And he was from the medical examiner's office.
He discussed the autopsy and the specifics for the gunshot wounds to Charles. I will say, when this guy talks, he just can rattle things off super quick. He knows his stuff quite a bit.
So Charles had one bullet wound to the chest and then one to the left abdomen area. He also had abrasions on both of his knees and a small one on his left hand, which Dr. Baumgartner says were caused at the time of death.
The shot to the chest had stippling, which is when gunpowder strikes the skin after a bullet enters. The closer the gun muzzle is to the person increases the amount of stippling.
He estimates that the shooter would have been about 2 to 4ft away from Charles. The chest gunshots exit wound was in the middle of the back, so it seems like it went kind of straight through.
He reviewed the wound path and like specifically every organ and everything it hit. And it wouldn't have been immediately fatal.
And that Charles would have lived seconds up to very few minutes, which made me really sad to think about.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
As a note, one of Charles's hands had blood on it. And it's speculated that he grabbed his chest before falling to his knees, which explains the abrasions to his knees.
Lindsey:
The second gunshot wound was in the left abdomen and had no stippling, which meant that the muzzle of the gum was likely 4 to 5ft away. The exit wound for this one was on the back of his left shoulder, which I feel like that's an interesting trajectory, by the way.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
And the exit wound accordingly was atypical, and it was a short exit wound, which is when the body is pressed against a firm surface when the bullet is exiting the skin. Like if someone was laying on the floor.
Trina asked, given the trajectory that you observed from the gunshot wound on Charles's abdomen, would that be consistent with the shooter standing somewhere near Mr. Vallow's feet and firing at Charles Vallow as he was laying on the floor? And Dr. Baumgartner answered, yes, that is certainly possible.
And it's also important to note, and we'll talk more about this later as well, but there was a mark on the floor in that area where the bullet hit.
Amanda:
And so I wonder, then he hit Charles and didn't realize that Charles would still be moving. And after he fell, he's like, shit, he's still alive. And then shot him again.
Lindsey:
There was also testimony from Robin Smith Scott, who is the custodian of records for Banner Life Insurance.
And they played two calls where Laurie had called about Charles's life insurance, and we'd heard one before, but we don't think we'd heard the other one before. So the first call that we had heard before was her calling and starting the claim for life insurance right after Charles had died.
And when they asked her if he had died by homicide, she said that he was shot and it was an accident.
Now, the second call is her calling after she had received an email, and she's calling to discuss policy details that she has and wants to know when the beneficiary was changed. So during the call, Robin explains that he can't give a lot of details, but it was changed in March.
And Laurie sounds frustrated in the call, and she says, I'm trying to figure out what he was doing. We have five kids and have been married 15 years.
He owes a lot of people money, and I was worried that if I got money, they'd be coming after me for money. But now I am left with none. She then asks if it was changed to one person, and Robin cannot answer that.
So, you know, again, during this call, she has Robin check her own policy, which was for $2 million, to see if anything was changed on hers, but it may have been with another company, as Robin couldn't find it.
Amanda:
Yeah. So it must have been with a different company. And Laurie has no idea what is going on.
So Detective Cassandra Incline from Chandler Police Department discussed her view of the crime scene and everyone's demeanor that she had observed.
She said Alex was normal and wasn't agitated or upset, which, I mean, like, you mentioned, too, when there's, like, a traumatic thing that happens, everyone's gonna act differently. But this just seemed a little out of scope.
Lindsey:
I just feel like you would be, like, shaking. You've just taken someone's life. Horrifying. But you've just taken somebody who you've known for at least 15 years. Life.
Like, who people who you love, care about, even if you don't. You know what I'm saying? Like. Like, it's bizarre.
Amanda:
Yeah. I forget which part of the testimony, but Laurie tried to say, like, did you know that Charles and Alex were friends?
And they're like, what does this have to do with anything?
Lindsey:
Okay, then that's worse.
Amanda:
Yeah. Yeah.
But anyway, so she did notice that he was holding what looked like a paper towel or maybe a Kleenex in his hand at one point, and that he did reach back and touch the back of his head. And we've seen that in some of the interviews, too, from that day.
That he was doing that, but it doesn't seem consistent with, like, a big blow to the head, in my opinion. She observed Laurie and Tyler, but didn't know who they were at first, but acknowledged that they arrived after her.
Because of that, she spoke with her sergeant once she figured out who it was about, maybe taking Laurie aside and giving her a death notification. And her sergeant's like, yeah, that's probably a good idea, because how could someone know if they just showed up that their husband died?
And especially. I'm sorry. Lori was acting like a typical day. Right. When you watch those videos, she's smiling. She's totally fine.
I would be like, she doesn't know her husband's dead.
Lindsey:
Well, it's also right, like, have you ever pulled onto your street when there's an ambulance and you don't even know if it's at your house? But, like, just the drop in your stomach and the way that. That feels.
Amanda:
Yes.
Lindsey:
Like that surprise, that shock, the fact that wasn't present, I found strange.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
And then even more so that she's acting normal once she's there. And it's clearly something happened in that particular unit.
Amanda:
Right. Right. There's caution tape up and everything. So she's like, she must not know her husband's dead. Talks to her sergeant.
They both agree we should go tell her. But her plan was maybe to take Laurie away because she's with Tyler. They were in, like, this van, like, a victim van, I believe, some sort of van.
But they're both sitting there, and she's like, I need to get Laurie away from Tylee so I can tell her, because I don't want to say this in front of a child. Well, they ended up talking with her with Tyler present, because Laurie immediately shares, oh, I already know because I was there.
So she didn't seem overly affected and almost nonchalant about the whole situation. Also, the detective noted that Laurie's demeanor didn't change after she confirmed Laurie's husband had died.
Because Laurie and Tyler were now witnesses, they also had to be interviewed. And so she ended up driving them in that van to the station and then having to drive them home later.
They played parts of Laurie's interview with authorities that day, and that took place at the Family Advocacy center, which that's been available for a long time now. So if you want to see it, it's all over YouTube, everywhere.
Laurie wanted the whole video to be played, but they only played segments at the end of the trial. Laurie actually even gets upset because the whole video was not Admitted. And it was after the time that she could have raised the issue.
The state had already rested by this.
Lindsey:
Point and so had she.
Amanda:
Yeah, it's already done. You can't add any more. So she was very pissed. I don't know. I have to watch that video again.
It's been years since I watched it, but I'm wondering what detail did she want them to hear or see?
Lindsey:
So I remember that she talks about. Well, first off, she's very charming in it because she's very charming generally.
But she also is, like, talking about how he was heated and agitated and, like, angry. It seems like she is trying to support the story that Alex is going to tell of self defense and that Charles attacked him.
Amanda:
Yeah, just bizarre. I'll have to go back and. And take a look, because she was very adamant about it.
Now, during this interview that was played from that day, she mentions that Charles had sent her threats to her phone. But Laurie never offered to show these texts to the detective, even though she had her cell phone with her.
Like, if you're like, oh, he was doing really bad things and like, he's a bad person and he tried to attack us and all that, wouldn't you be like, oh, by the way, he sent me this. You know, like, I. Again, I don't. I'm not in that situation, but I feel like you would have offered it.
Lindsey:
Yeah, I feel like, oh, my gosh, he's been sending me this. Like, I was scared, something. I mean, I just feel like even in.
Just not even in a calculated way, but like, if police were there and I was like, no, he was a bad guy. I'm not saying Charles was a bad guy, but, like, right.
If my brother was potentially going to get in trouble for hurting somebody, where my story was that they were terrorizing me, I would absolutely be advocating for them as much as I could. Right. Like, I wouldn't be like, don't leave.
Amanda:
It up to chance.
Lindsey:
He was a bad guy. Like, no. No proof, nothing. I'd be like, no, I want you to know this in your bones.
Amanda:
Exactly.
Another detail that I thought was interesting that the detective brought up was, you know, how when they start talking to someone, they ask for, like, their name, their phone number, all of that stuff. Right. Pretty common.
Well, she learned that the communications between Laurie and Charles were actually on a different phone and that Lori didn't even provide that phone number for it.
Lindsey:
We're not going to get into the weeds on this too much today, but we've talked about it in other episodes that this blows my mind. Laurie had multiple icloud accounts. I can't imagine having multiple icloud accounts.
That would be exhausting to try to remember, like, where I had things, you know? But, yeah, bizarre.
So Amanda mentioned it earlier, but the detective also drove them back after their questioning, and she said that Laurie was just chatting away like it was any other day and not acting as though something horrific just happened.
Then when detectives could not find Charles's phone, they asked Lori and Tyler, and Tyler just pulled it out of the cup holder and handed it to the detective. So Laurie had the phone the whole time. So she's in there being questioned, and she has his phone.
And as a reminder, the cell phone was apparently, like, the instigating factor in the. In the fight. That's what they were arguing about, that Laurie in Charles's phone, and she refused to give it back.
And that's what made everything escalate.
Amanda:
And she never brought up why she did that either in any interviews?
Lindsey:
No.
Amanda:
Ever.
Lindsey:
So when detective inland was asked about Laurie's demeanor and if it stood out to her, she responded, yes, based on what was going on, that we had a homicide. Her husband had been shot and killed. Her brother shot him. It was inside her home. Her children were partially present for this event.
Her demeanor seemed odd based on what was going on at that house that day. That's all so much. Even, like, with half of those facts, it's a lot. You would assume that somebody wouldn't be business as usual, for sure.
And one of the biggest things to note when Laurie was cross examining her was that when Laurie referred to jj, she did so in the past tense. For example, she asked, are you aware that JJ had autism? And. And again, remember, the jury doesn't know about Tyler and JJ's death.
So, like, speaking about him in the past tense is like, hey, he's not alive. And then there's also a sidebar with the judge.
And we later find out that Laurie had wanted to ask the detective about whether she had observed Laurie's behavior at the previous trial and on, like, media interviews.
And the judge said, maybe you don't want to open that door, because it's like, dude, you're bringing up this other case, and once you bring it up, the prosecution can talk about it. So, like, do not bring this up. It's wild how often it seemed like the judge had to be like, are you trying to get convicted right now?
I mean, it almost like with the way she was acting, it seemed like it's what she wanted almost. You know, almost.
Amanda:
I'm just surprised. Like, he stepped in so many times that she was so rude to him several times, and he continued to step in and almost help her.
Not that he shouldn't have. Like, he was just being a good person.
Lindsey:
He's being a good judge.
Amanda:
She was really digging to see how much the detective could read behavior like that. That was her to be like, well, maybe you're not an expert on that.
Lindsey:
Yeah. And there absolutely could have been questions that she's asked, like, hey, have you experienced other people doing this?
Or what should I have acted like?
Amanda:
Exactly. Yeah.
Lindsey:
What would have been right for you? How should I have acted when my husband was killed? What would have been good enough for you?
Amanda:
Right.
Lindsey:
Do you see how that completely flips it of, like, I kind of sound like an right now, you know, Like, I don't know.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Literally anything other than what Lori is doing. Lori wanted her opinion and her voice to be heard, but she didn't think about how other people would receive that.
Because just because you're talking doesn't mean somebody understands what you're trying to say.
Amanda:
Right.
Lindsey:
But anywho.
So the beginning of the trial the next day was a little bit odd because the judge had to pull the attorneys aside and talk to them about subpoenas that were being received by people who were not on Laurie's witness list. When you watch crime dramas, they'll have, like, a surprise witness. That's not real. You can't really have a surprise witness.
Both parties have to be aware of the witnesses, which means they have to be on the witness list. So they're on the actual subpoenas themselves. There wasn't a number that they could call because Laurie was signing them.
And she's in jail, so she doesn't have a phone that they can call. So the people who are receiving the subpoenas were reaching out to the prosecutor. And the judge was like, this is what you do.
Like, this is how you do the subpoenas. So that she understood for her next trial. And Laurie was like, oh, the people who are getting these shouldn't be on the witness list.
Like, this was an oversight. And Tina's like, you signed these. So, like, how is it an oversight if you literally sign these and sent them out? Yeah.
And Lori said that she signed all of them, but she didn't check them as she was doing it. She's like. I was like, basically, she says that she's sloppy.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
And the judge is also like, are all of these people even, like, relevant? Do these people need to testify. Is this about this case?
Because, again, it seems like Laurie's like, I'm gonna use this as an opportunity to just figure out some stuff, ask people questions who I want them to answer on Stan. That's what it feels like. She's like, I'm here for my own reasons, and it's not to defend myself.
And there were several people on her list that they couldn't find or serve with the subpoenas.
Amanda:
Interesting.
Lindsey:
Wild. I'm like, who are these people?
Amanda:
But anywho, another witness was Detective Ariel Werther, and they were from Chandler Police Department, and he discussed the timeline of events on July 11th. And this was really good to see all in one, because we've seen bits and pieces here and there as things have come out.
But seeing everything compiled into one nice timeline, I think just, like, helped me to understand that day and to really prove that Laurie and Alex's story was complete nonsense.
Lindsey:
And also, just to point out, we are, like, up to our elbows in case research on this case. Right. Like, we have read everything we can find. We've talked about it a lot.
I can't even imagine being a juror who's, like, trying to parse out all this information for the first time and learn it live.
Amanda:
Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
Lindsey:
So it's helpful that they did this to really be able to create a narrative of what happened and what. What they think is and is not fact.
Amanda:
Yes.
I think the only other thing that was missing, in my opinion, that could have just made the story for the prosecution make thousand percent sense, is the actual 911 call when Alex called about Charles. Because he did say. They said, like, how long ago did it happen? And he says, a few minutes ago, I believe.
So, like, it would have made sense to play it. But anyways, this was good, too. So the 911 call was placed at 8:36am Police arrived between 8:41 and 8:42.
So, very quick, Lori is seen on body cam footage at 8:48. So just a few minutes later.
Now, Detective Werther says this timeline just doesn't make sense, because how would Laurie go from her house to burger king, drive seven miles to JJ's school, then drive back? All of that in 12 minutes, given that there would have been traffic.
Lindsey:
Exactly.
Amanda:
And that's their story that we heard a while ago.
So I know if you're new to this, they claim that Charles was shot and she immediately left to take the kids out because obviously kids should not be there. But she went to Burger King And I think that was because he had promised JJ Burger King. Maybe.
She also mentioned that she had gone to a store to buy sandals as well, and that she drove JJ to school before returning home. So that couldn't have happened. That doesn't make sense because she arrived on the body cam footage at 8:48.
Now, he also watched Burger King's surveillance cameras, and he could see that she went through the drive thru at 7:54am so how would she have left the house after Charles was shot but be at Burger King before?
Lindsey:
Exactly.
Amanda:
Right before the 911 call. Yeah. 7:54. That's a while before. The detective was also told that Laurie went to CVS that day to buy flip flops.
Well, he ended up going to seven different stores and no one could find video evidence of this. So what he did was he extracted GPS data from Charles's phone since she had it that day and she had actually gone to Walgreens.
So he was able to get that surveillance footage and the receipt and verify the time of that. He had a complete PowerPoint to show the geolocation cell phone info for all their phones. So Charles, Lori and Alex's phones.
And he basically color coded each one to signify who was the owner of that phone and, you know, their GPS and where they were. Charles's phone was at the hotel at 7:16am between 7:16 and 7:31. He was traveling to Lori's house at 7:37.
That was the last text message sent from Charles's phone. Between 7:37 and 7:49. The phone is in the area of Laurie's home. At 7:50, the phone leaves the area.
So the earliest him being there would have been about 7:37. And then it's leaving at 7:50.
If there was this big drawn out scuffle argument, all of that, I feel like it would have taken place longer than 13 minutes. Yeah, possibly even less. Like if you look at the 7:49 time as the arrival.
Lindsey:
Yeah. How exactly?
Amanda:
So at 7:52, Alex calls Laurie's phone. Not 91 1.
Lori's phone now going off of Charles phone ping GPS between 7:52 and 7:56am it's near the Burger King, which the surveillance footage confirmed. At 7:56, the phone starts moving north. Alex then calls Laurie at 8:06 from his phone. Again, not 911. Laurie's phone.
Charles's phone arrives at Walgreens at 8:16, was at JJ's school between 8:17 and 8:33. I believe she did walk him up from her story, at least, who could know? Then it heads south between 8:33 and 8:35. 911 was called at 8:36.
So after Lori had already dropped JJ off and was already heading back, Laurie arrived back at the house at 8:48am Then Charles's and Laurie's phone both are together and move around in the noon hour. All three phones.
So Charles, Laurie and Alex's were in the area of Alex's house between 1:42pm and 2:07pm so they met after all of this and likely talked about their.
Lindsey:
Stories would be my guess.
Amanda:
Laurie calls Detective Inkland at 2:07pm and then she calls the mortuary at 2:28pm Charles's phone returns to the house between 2:43 and 3:11pm and that's when it's given to detectives. So later that afternoon. So she had a bit of time to go through it, right?
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
e. Right. Like, you guys lied:
I assume about Charles meeting a woman and sending money, like, not quite to the woman. I think it was two different. Like, yeah, he met a woman here, we're sending money.
And of course, that was objected for relevance because, like, what does that have to do with anything? Lori, everything she does seems pointless.
Lindsey:
Agreed, Agreed. So we're at now day seven of the trial, by the way. That's where we're at now.
And it's Detective Nathan Duncan's testimony, and he's actually the last witness that's called. Now, he spent months going through icloud data.
As an interesting note, one of the things Detective Duncan mentioned was that text messages that were sent to Charles's phone were read after he died.
So, like, they can confirm she was noodling around like it's a given because she had it, but it's like knowing that, like, the messages we're showing is red.
So from the very beginning, the scene was inconsistent with the story that they were being given, and that's why police started investigating, including just really starting to dig into all of the digital evidence.
Very interestingly, one of the things he mentioned was that he didn't have any information about anyone else in Lori's family, like Janice, Barry or Summer being at the scene. He even mentioned that Summer was on.
Amanda:
Her way out of town and Summer's Lori's sister. Janice and Barry are her parents.
Lindsey:
Yes. He also mentioned that the medical examiner didn't come to the actual crime scene and look at Charles's body, where it was.
They reviewed photos and his actual remains for their conclusions. Detective Duncan also noted that the bullet that was in the floor, it was clear that it went through Charles's shoulder.
And he also said that the bullet on the floor was, quote, 100% consistent with char being shot while he was on the floor. And they were so sure of this, they actually ended up cutting a portion of the floor out as evidence.
They also showed a picture of Charles lying on the floor of the home in court. And Kay didn't look at that photo, which is fair. I don't think I would want to see that up my sibling either.
Amanda:
They did that with the autopsy photos, too, and I believe she left for those.
Lindsey:
So fair. So they also talked a lot about the bat that Charles had allegedly struck Alex with.
And they noted that there was no damage to the plastic tip of the bat bat. They also said there was no blood or hair visible on the bat. So they didn't really test it because they were like, what are we gonna find? Right.
They didn't put luminol on it because if there was blood, they would have been able to see it. There shouldn't have been any cleanup if it was self defense. So it's. There shouldn't be any hidden blood, you know.
And then Lori was a bit, what I would say, obsessed with peppering detective Duncan with questions about the testing that was done on the bat. Specifically, she was really concerned with the fact that DNA. There wasn't DNA testing on it.
And detective Duncan was like, like, this was in your house. Your brother Alex was there. Tyler lived there, you lived there. Charles, you know, stopped by and visited.
We don't know how long you've had this bat for. So there are innocuous reasons for everyone's DNA to be on that bat.
So why would we test it when there's non suspicious reasons for that DNA to be there?
And as a note, Detective Duncan didn't even know that Alex had gotten hit when he was on the crime scene because he wasn't the lead investigator at that point. And there were a few different things that during his testimony, Laurie was like, why didn't they do it this way? Why didn't they look at this?
And he was like, that wasn't my decision. She's like, well, but why didn't they do that?
And that's another instance where the judge, like, he can't tell you why other people did things like, yeah, he's not other people. He is Him. They also talked about about text exchanges where there was a Nephi slash order to kill.
And in the context of this, Laurie's asking him about this, and she just kind of adds on. Like, half of the text exchanges between Alex and I were jokes.
Amanda:
Okay.
Lindsey:
If that was true, then you had submitted evidence showing your text messages where it's all jokes, you know? He also notes that Alex's phone was given back to him the day of the shooting.
So there was also a text exchange that was shared before, but it is very damning. And they're talking about Charles's life insurance policy in this conversation.
So Chad said it will be interesting if it got changed after he got two bullets in his chest. Laurie responds, I don't think it could have. You can't change it. After the death date, they would review that.
Then Laurie gave Chad a blessing and said she thought K was the beneficiary. Chad then says, you should have a good paper trail to prove it.
Amanda:
I love you.
Lindsey:
This is terrible. It's probably just another step in bringing down the Gantians, especially Brandon.
ion of Ned was in February of:
And again, one of the parts that I thought was particularly damning was that Detective Duncan said that he believes that Charles was dead for 47 minutes before Alex called 911, which would explain the lividity, which would explain why there was modeling in his skin.
And this other part, it's something that we knew, but just in the aggregate of seeing it, it was interesting to see just how often Laurie would be having a conversation with someone, and she would say, call me.
And it was always, like, when you could tell they were gonna start talking about nothing good, you know, like they were gonna start doing details, and that's when they would call it. Obviously, there's not any records of the actual content of those calls other than, like, she said, call me, then the person would call her.
And there's always bad shit going on after it. Yeah, yeah.
Amanda:
Also during his testimony, the 24 was brought up, and apparently there were 24 zombies, and they were working on figuring out who all of them were. During Duncan's testimony, they showed texts that talked about Adam's son Zach, being a zombie.
Lindsey:
Later, they actually identified him as the. The last zombie. Like, the last identified zombie, which hurt my heart. Yeah.
Amanda:
That's scary.
Lindsey:
It's a relative, another relative.
Amanda:
And Adam's there too, you know, like. Yeah. Later, Laurie told Alex that Adam too was a zombie.
Lindsey:
So he's just like, so apparently there's 25.
Amanda:
Like, yeah, they were gonna go after me and my kid. Like, how scary for Adam. M. Like thinking too about Brandon and how scary it was for his life.
And he has children, you know, with one of the people very close to Laurie. So I'm like, yikes. If they hadn't been stopped, what else could have happened?
Lindsey:
Exactly.
Amanda:
We do have a long list of who they suspected to be zombies, including detectives and. And anyone that stood in their way throughout all of our other episodes. Two of the state's witnesses did not testify.
They were Detective Nathan Moffett and Jason Hunsacker. And from our understanding, we believe Moffat was the original lead detective. But I feel like even without their testimonies, everything was fine.
Lindsey:
It was also very clear that Laurie was picking apart why certain things were investigated and were not.
And I think that Detective Moffat, I'm sure, had very good information that would have been helpful, but it would have been a repeat of information that was already given. And Laurie would have been like, why didn't you do this? Why didn't you look at this?
And it would have given more opportunity for there to be some holes in the prosecution. That, that's my understanding. Not that, like, I don't think. I don't know whether he did anything wrong or not. I don't.
I didn't investigate it, but that would be my guess as to, like, that he didn't. There was no value in like him specifically when there was so many other people who could come to those conclusions without the critiques. Right.
Amanda:
Lori and the state rested, but they did not do so before the jury. So that had to be done the next day in front of the jury. And both sides did do that the following day. Day.
This means that Lori couldn't testify on her own behalf, which I was very curious if that was going to happen.
Lindsey:
Oh, I wasn't. I knew she wasn't. That's the whole reason, in my opinion, why she was representing herself.
Amanda:
I believe she was asked that in one of the interviews and she's like, I haven't decided yet.
Lindsey:
Oh yeah. Because she's not going to say that.
The reason why she's representing herself is so that she can talk without being cross examined and possibly impeached. Because if she lies on the stand, then they can then introduce new witnesses and evidence to show that she's a liar.
But they can't do it unless she lies. Right. So I think that it was so that she couldn't get cross examined and impeached, which is the. One of the only smart fucking things she did.
Amanda:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a textbook. Yeah, she made the right choice, but she typically doesn't act with her.
Lindsey:
Yeah, she's not good at doing that.
Amanda:
Yeah, you know, just like makes quick decisions often as far as like what was spouting from her mouth most of the time. So I just thought she was going to get upset and just be like, well, now it's my turn, you know, Know. But I mean, okay, she didn't.
Lindsey:
Whatever.
Amanda:
As an interesting note, she also obviously gave her own closing argument. So she had the benefit of being able to tell her story without the downside of being cross examined by the prosecution.
But she also had to stick with what was brought up during the trial, so she didn't have too much to work off of. Yeah, there were 14 jurors, two women and 12 men. And the juror instructions were pretty along.
The judge told them to determine the facts only by what was given in court. Evidence and witnesses only. Any testimony stricken from court record must not be considered.
If something was objected and sustained, jurors should not consider, which there's a few times that Lori said things that they can't really think about anymore. The judge reviewed a packet with them for almost 40 minutes with all of the instructions to ensure that every single person understood.
And each juror also had their own packets. So they were like going over it like a class, you know, like, this is what this means.
They could make sure that everyone had a clear understanding of what that meant. So after that, the closing arguments happened. Trina's was about an hour and 40 minutes long.
Lindsey:
Wow.
Amanda:
Laurie's was about 16 minutes long. And Trina's rebuttal was about eight minutes long.
Lindsey:
So Trina, her poor voice, she wasn't fucking around though.
Amanda:
No, she was not fucking around. But hers was very good. And I want to say one of.
Lindsey:
The jurors already said, like, yeah, her.
Amanda:
Her closing argument really like got me me. But she reviewed texts between Laurie and chat, summarized important parts of the testimony, Laurie's beliefs.
She showed a timeline on the screen of all the events, money being the motive, how Laurie exaggerates, minimizes, and is untruthful about even the smallest of things. And discussed her affair with Chad. She did a phenomenal job. Now, Laurie's was quick. Laurie reviewed some of the jury instructions.
That seems like, like what she held on to and specifically when they should find the defendant not guilty. Like, she read them and she's like, so you should find the defendant not guilty, like, and read them one by one. And I was like, they just heard this.
But, okay.
She brought up that her whole interview, remember the day that Charles was killed, Wasn't shown, but most of it is admitted, and that it's specifically Exhibit 286, and that she encouraged all of them to watch it.
She tried to say that the state chose not to show certain interviews, but the judge says that they should disregard it because they should only consider what is admitted into evidence.
So she's already spouting things, and he's having to stop her during her closing arguments, even, which I feel like that doesn't look good to the jury. You know, like, you can't even get your point fully across because you're already messing up again.
Lindsey:
Yep.
Amanda:
She also spent a good amount of time talking about Nephi and then how she ended it was, again, it was a family tragedy.
Lindsey:
And again, it is a family tragedy. It's just not your tragedy. It's a tragedy you caused. Yes. So after closing statements, the judge determined who the ultimate jurors would be.
And that was juror 14 and number five. Both were men.
And they began deliberations around 3pm they only went for about 10 minutes before they were like, okay, we're going to continue the next day. The next day, while deliberations are happening, the judge brings up the aggravation phase.
And what that is is that once a defendant has been convicted of specific offenses that could be considered dangerous, the state then has the burden of proving that the defendant is eligible for a particular sentence. So during this phase, new evidence and witnesses can be introduced. And when you're thinking of, like, why would that be the case?
There are times where evidence might not be admissible in trial for a host of reasons. It could be that it's not relevant to determining guilt, but it is relevant to determining why a person may have done something. But.
So the judge asks that and whether they'll be having witnesses. The state says that they would have two or so family members testify.
And when he asked Laurie, this is before the verdict comes in, because you only go into the aggravation phase ways if a guilty verdict is rendered, because otherwise you're not sentencing somebody who's not guilty. So we are.
Before the verdict has come in, Laurie asks the judge if she can stipulate to the aggravating factors, meaning that she would be accepting the possibility of the worst punishment without doing an extra, like, judicial step. And she asks a few times. She's like, can I just Stipulate to it. Like, can I just stipulate to it?
And the judge is basically like, let's wait until the verdict is rendered before you make a decision on stipulating to a harsh sentence. And the jury then returns a verdict. It's around 3pm and at 3:49, the verdict was read and the jury found Laurie gloriously guilty.
So after this, the judge asks the jury to step out. At this point, he asks again, do you want to stipulate to the aggravating factors?
And specifically, the aggravating factors for this charge in this instance are that it was a dangerous offense, that the victim died as a result, the conduct of the offense caused physical, emotional or financial harm to the victim's immediate family, and the offense involved the presence of an accomplice. Laurie said that she stipulated to all of it. The judge then went over a few things and was like, you confirm this, you confirm this.
And one of those things was that additional aggregating factors could be added to this list. And if she stipulates now, then she stipulates to all the ones they could add. So interesting that she was just like, okay.
And next the judge asks if she wants to be sentenced in the next 30 days or if she wants to wait until after her next trial again, which is in June. And she asks what the judge suggests, and he's like, I recommend you talk to your counsel. Because she's like, being deferential in the weirdest way.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
And so we're recording this just a few days after the verdict was returned, and there have already been a few juror interviews.
Amanda:
Also, as we're recording it right now, I just saw that Laurie did another interview as well. So we haven't had a chance to watch that.
But the headline is that she said Tyler died by suicide and that she expresses doubt that the jurors were unaware during the trial that Tylee was dead. So much. So much is still going to be happening with this. But anyways, so as soon as the.
Lindsey:
Jurors walked out of the courthouse, the reporters pretty much jumped on them. And one juror already said something that raised some red flags.
And they were asked, do you remember your reaction to learning that she had been convicted in killing her two children? And the reply was, you know, I feel sorry for her.
I was driving home yesterday and I was like, God, she's spending the rest of the next three lives in a prison cell. You gotta feel sorry for her. Even though that's an awful thing to do.
I mean, there's something wrong up There, but you still just feel awful about it.
Amanda:
Yikes.
Lindsey:
People are hoping that he. He misspoke out of exhaustion. There's also another interview with Nate each Eaton where he posted.
Him and some of the other reporters were chatting to the same guy and someone asked if he was aware that this woman had already been convicted of three homicides. And he replied, no, I did not. So it's completely possible that when he learned of that, it was because someone told him. You know what I'm saying?
Like, it, like in the course of this.
Amanda:
Right.
Lindsey:
Also, it is pretty hard to throw out a verdict once it's in. Like, there has to be like some serious. That goes down more than a person knew about some things typically.
Amanda:
Right. And I even, like, when I saw that interviews, I sent screenshots to Lindsay, I was like, is this the same person?
Like, because of what he's wearing, it's. It's not a common color that people would be wearing just to ensure. Because I really do think he could have misspoke or.
I mean, I don't know the time frame between those two interviews, which one happened first or what, because they were all in front of the courthouse back to back, it seems. Yeah. So he could have said that, been told about her already killing other people.
And perhaps he was thinking, like, fuck, if we deliver the verdict tomorrow and it's guilty, the rest of her life likely is going to be in prison. And maybe that's what he was referring to.
Lindsey:
Yeah, I mean, it's. It's also that this response is not. Yeah, I remember. She can get. Right. It was.
Even though she did a bad thing, it still is awful that she's going to spend the rest of her life behind bars.
Amanda:
It showed empathy.
Lindsey:
It showed empathy.
And I think that if you're talking about juror or bias, I'm not nearly as concerned about this response than if somebody was like, fuck her, you know?
Amanda:
Yeah, yeah. If we were. Yeah, yeah.
Lindsey:
If you and I, we'd be like, we can't be jurors on this. We cannot be a juror. Obviously.
Amanda:
Yeah. But like, I wish I could. Could.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
And then other jurors also discussed that they were going to like, Google more about the case afterwards and that they wanted to watch the documentary once they got home, which, I mean, fair. I would also want the full story, especially if I had spent so much time looking into this.
And it is no small thing to render a guilty verdict, especially in a situation like this. Right. So she was her own counsel. She did a bad job at it.
Is she convicted because she's done a bad job at defending herself or is she actually guilty? Obviously they thought that it was. She was still guilty. But I could see having that nagging feeling.
So I would want to go and be like, let me go look at the full picture where no one is deciding what I should or should not hear. I think that would be, like, good for them.
Amanda:
What a night they must have had, though.
Lindsey:
Yeah. Yeah. One of the jurors also mentioned they were like, we feel like we're missing a big part of the story and they are.
So we will see what comes of these interviews and what comes next. Again, as Amanda mentioned, there's already another interview with Laurie in our own recording.
We just hit 2 hours and 30 minutes, so it probably won't get added to this episode. But when we talk about the sentencing and the trial for the attempted murder of Brandon, we'll probably cover anything Valo in that as well.
Amanda:
Yeah, that's real. I mean, if it's not a repeat of everything, because it seems like a lot of them were already saying very similar things.
But the Lori interview could be wild. We'll see. So we have one more trial to go with Lori, and we're hoping for another guilty verdict.
We've been following this case pretty much since we started the podcast.
Lindsey:
Yes.
Amanda:
And then I had been following it before that. I even went to Idaho at one point to interview people surrounding the case. So just wild.
It's great to see that the victims families are finally getting the justice that they deserve. Yeah. And it just. It makes me so happy to see Kay smiling, you know, like after and being like. Yeah.
Lindsey:
There was a lot of concern as to whether there would even be trials for Charles murder and for Brandon's attempted murder. Because of the convictions that happen in Idaho. Yeah.
And a lot of times jurisdictions do not continue to prosecute somebody who's going to spend life in prison. Part of the purpose of this is to make sure that this person isn't back out in the world. And if that's impossible already, what's the point?
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
But trials aren't always to get justice for families, which is unfortunate, but it is sometimes true. So I am glad that they did this and that. Yeah. The families were able to get a little bit more closure.
Amanda:
Yeah. Yeah. And we'll probably keep talking about this in our True Crime Digest depending on when Lori decides for her sentencing and.
Lindsey:
What goes on, but we'll update you. Yeah.
Amanda:
And with that, have a great weekend.
Lindsey:
Thanks for creeping with us. Thanks for listening. And as always, a special thank you to our patrons who support us via Patreon.
Amanda:
Please see the link in our show notes to learn more about how you yes, you can begin to haunt the Delta Guard Vortexes or even become a scorching Sasquatch.
Lindsey:
Ooh. Also in our show notes you can find the link to our website, more information on our sources, our social media handles, and our merch store.
Amanda:
We'd love for you to keep creeping with us, so if you like this episode, please subscribe, rate, review and share the show with your fellow creeps and or ghosts.
225.The Trial Against Lori Vallow Daybell for the Conspiracy to Murder Charles Vallow
01:36:57
224.Mandy Rose Reynolds
00:36:59
223.Spooky Travel: Cassadaga, Florida
01:02:50
222.The Torture & Murder of Sam Nordquist
00:41:28
221.The Medical Mystery at Riverside General Hospital: Gloria Ramirez's Story
00:51:36
220.Cryptids: The Alkali Lake Monster & Friends
01:02:45
219.Doll Chat: Succubus MOST HAUNTED Bleeding Eyes Kitty-Cat Lamb Boy in the Doorway Pug Positive NICE but MOST EVIL 5pc
01:20:54
218.Spooky Travel: St. Augustine, Florida & its Lighthouse
01:04:59
217.Pal-entines: besties getting justice (the disappearance of Danny Goldman & the murder of Daisy De La O)
01:02:28
216.Mannequin Murders: The murders of Dolly Davis, Kathleen Gouldin, Iva Watson, & Evelyn Dieterich
00:50:05
215.The Disappearance and Murder of Emmishae Kirby
00:39:40
214.Werewolves & Lycanthropy (Wolfman)
00:49:00
213.Time Slips
01:12:10
212.Christmas True Crime: The Mysterious Disappearance of the Sodder Children
01:09:18
211.Creepy Inspirations Behind Coraline: From Fairy Tales to Urban Legends
00:40:13
210.True Crime Digest 20: Asha Degree; Mercedes Vega; the murder of David Yeager possibly by Danny Rollings; Leola Etta Bryant identified as Samuel Little victim
00:36:14
209.Florence & The Ghost (Sir William Crooke's Experiments (and love??)
00:45:34
208.The Murders of Pauline Reade, John Kilbride, Keith Bennett, Lesley Ann Downey, and Edward Evans (The Moor Murders)
01:05:02
207.Halloween 2024: Spirit Photography
01:08:05
206.Halloween True Crime 3: The Murder of John Altinger by Mark Twitchell
01:08:19
205.The Blair Witch: Inspiration and the Filming of the Movie
01:11:13
204.4th Podiversary: Listener Stories
01:09:56
203.Urban Legends: Organ Harvesting
00:38:23
202.Cryptids: The Owlman of Mawnan Wood
00:42:01
201.Bloody Benders: A Family of Serial Killers
00:53:17
200.The Grinning Man: Indrid Cold (Mothman's side kick?), Urban Legend, or Something Else?
01:18:16
199.Spooky Travel: The Driskill Hotel, Austin, TX
00:48:12
198.Friggin' Worms
00:57:53
197.The Sacred Mushrooms of Sierra Mazateca
00:42:38
196.Jakub & Ondrej
01:38:07
195.Haunted Dolls 4
00:34:00
194.Traditionally Creepy
00:52:13
193.Béla Lugosi's Mirror
00:53:37
192.Spooky Travel: The Millennium Biltmore Hotel - Los Angeles
145.True Crime Digest 16: Dr. John Forsyth; Daniel Robinson; Shopping Cart Killer; West Memphis 3; Lori Vallow/ Chad Daybell Cases; Villisca Axe Murder House
01:08:32
144.Carl Tanzler's Obsession: Elena de Hoyos
00:57:11
143.Haunted Houses: Sales, Stories, and The Ghostbusters Ruling
111.The Avril Lavigne Conspiracy (Halloween Shorts)
00:28:18
110.Strange Ways to Die: Sinkholes (Halloween Shorts)
00:18:18
109.The Deadly Pepsi Contest (Halloween Shorts)
00:32:20
108.Untucked Tootsies (Halloween Shorts)
00:25:39
107.A Couple of Curses (Halloween Shortie)
00:21:24
106.Haunted Hotels: Jerome, AZ
00:51:54
105.2nd Podiversary Episode: Listener Stories
01:05:44
104.Vallow & Daybell Update September 2022
01:23:46
103.Hocus Pocus
01:11:17
102.The Murders of Barbara Raposa, Karen Marsden, & Doreen Levesque (Fall River Cult Killings): Bridgewater Triangle & Satanic Panic III
01:32:58
101.More Haunted Dolls
00:32:32
100.Mothman: Origins
01:05:24
99.Cryptids: Sheepsquatch & The Ozark Howler
00:54:37
98.Stranger Things: Inspiration & History
01:08:14
97.Vallow & Daybell Update August 2022
00:54:19
96.True Crime Digest 14: Daniel Robinson, Jelani Day, West Memphis 3, Hugo Osorio Chavez, Molly Bish, Andrés Mendoza
00:55:43
95.Mayan Legends
00:52:08
94.The Power [St]Ranger Curse: Murder, Fraud, Violence, and Death
01:03:58
93.Lake Lanier
01:09:17
92.The Odd & Outrageous Origins of Children's Stories
00:56:06
91.Deltona Massacre: The murders of Erin Bellanger; Michelle Nathan; Roberto Gonzalez; Anthony Vega; Francisco Ayo-Roman; and Jonathan Gleason
00:57:19
90.Creepy Scientific Discoveries: Sharkcanos, Sinkholes, and Zombies
01:03:21
89.True Crime Digest 13: Daniel Robinson; Joseph Bolduc; Taryn Summers; Jelani Day; Daniel Brophy; Crystal Turner and Kylen Shulte; Michelle Guse, Lori Farmer, and Denise Milner (the Girl Scout Murders); Beth Redmond, Sonya Champ, Stephanie Harrison, and Tonita smith (victims of the Shopping Cart Killer)
00:42:41
88.Multiverse Travel: Vasile Gorgos, Pedro Ramirez & Carol Chase Elheney
01:00:14
87.Spooky Places: Thompson Park, Bodie, & The Island of Dolls
00:54:19
86.Vallow & Daybell Update May 2022
00:40:18
85.Satanic Panic Injustice: The Murders of Steven Branch, Christopher Byers & Michael Moore and the West Memphis Three (Jason Baldwin, Jessie Misskelley, & Damien Echols)
01:05:05
84.Ourang Medan
01:01:37
83.Satanic Panic 101
01:14:16
82.Bridgewater Triangle II: Hockomock Swamp, UFOS, Big Foot & Other Cryptids
00:44:56
81.Vallow & Daybell Update April 2022
00:12:46
80.True Crime Digest 12: Jubi Monsif, Daniel Robinson, Naomi Irion, Dyatlov Pass & Apple Airtags
00:50:02
79.April Fools: Killer Clowns & Pranks
00:58:23
78.Bridge Water Triangle I: History, Haunts & the Horrifying Taunton State Hospital
00:48:45
77.Julie Popovich
01:02:43
76.Ghostly Vengence
00:47:16
75.True Crime Digest 11
00:45:31
74.Shopping Cart Killer: The Murders of Sonya Champ, Tonita Smith, Stephanie Harrison, Cheyenne Brown, & Beth Redmon
00:37:44
73.Blobs
00:49:41
72.The Disappearance of Daniel Robinson
00:39:23
71.Vallow & Daybell Update February 2022
00:42:08
70.True Crime Digest 10
00:22:45
69.The Hotel Del Coronado Mystery
00:52:37
68.The Pine Barrens & The Jersey Devil
00:52:45
67.Vallow & Daybell Update January 2022
01:06:31
66.Doppelgängers
00:57:04
65.Christmas Monsters 2
00:29:22
64.True Crime Digest 9
00:36:08
63.Black Friday
00:56:50
62.Bunny Man
00:38:59
61.Vallow & Daybell Updates
01:09:51
60.True Crime Digest 8
01:23:28
59.Halloween True Crime 2
00:52:31
58.More Ghosts
01:03:47
57.Scream: The True Stories
01:02:01
56.Urban Legends: Loveland Frogman, Chullachaqui, Ningen, and the Crying Boy
00:53:42
55.1st Podiversary: Spooky Listener Stories
00:57:56
54.Belanglo Forest
00:55:39
53.The Denver Airport Conspiracies
00:59:13
52.Texas Killing Fields: 90's Victims & Killers
01:03:39
51.True Crime Digest 7
01:11:21
50.Mermaids
00:54:52
48.Dybbuk Box: Debunked
00:44:00
47.Friday the 13th
00:58:18
46.True Crime Digest 6
01:00:06
45.Texas Killing Fields: 80's Victims & Killers
00:58:02
44.Urban Legends: The Goatman of Pope Lick Creek, The Ship of Death, The Miniwashitu, and The Walking Man
00:33:53
43.Lori Vallow: Conspiracy Charges for Charles Vallow's Murder
00:57:17
42.Girl Scout Murders
01:03:31
41.True Crime Digest 5
00:52:57
40.Cursed: People
01:15:37
39.Texas Killing Fields: 70's Victims & Killers
00:40:28
38.Creepy Kids
00:46:20
37.True Crime Digest 4
00:16:56
36.Murder Charges Against Lori Vallow Daybell & Chad Daybell
01:05:46
35.The Woods
01:08:03
34.Murderous Marys
01:01:10
33.Brian Shaffer
01:17:57
32.True Crime Digest 3: Derek Chauvin, Linda Stoltzfoos, Lori Vallow Daybell, & Taryn Summers
00:57:30
31.Kendrick Johnson
01:20:20
30.Bloody Mary
01:05:50
29.Samuel Little
00:44:52
28.An Abundance of Skeletons
00:58:51
27.True Crime Digest 2: Kendrick Johnson, Lori Vallow Daybell, & Kay Day
01:11:11
bonusTrue Crêpes: Tasty Terror
00:14:53
26.Sea Monsters
01:03:24
25.Georgia Guidestones
01:03:47
24.Texas Killing Fields: Unsolved
00:44:17
23.True Crime Digest
01:01:53
22.Crime Fighting Critters
00:38:51
21.Haunted Dolls
00:56:35
20.Sinister Love: Vallow & Daybell
01:35:09
19.Hotels That Kill: Cecil Hotel, H.H. Holmes' Castle, & Hotel San Carlos
