Join us as we delve into the tragic and mysterious story of the Sodder family, whose lives were forever altered by a devastating house fire on Christmas in 1945. George and Jenny Sodder faced the unthinkable when five of their kids, Betty, Maurice, Martha, Louis, & Jennie, vanished without a trace amidst the flames. We’ll discuss the “investigation” from law enforcement as well as the efforts by the Sodder family to locate their missing children. We will also share theories about whether the children survived the fire as well as suspects and motives.
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Transcripts
Lindsey:
Hi.
Lindsey:
Welcome to True Creeps, where the stories are true and the creeps are real.
Amanda:
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Lindsey:
The possibly plausible paranormal to horrifying history to tense and terrible true crime and.
Amanda:
Everything else that goes bump in the night.
Amanda:
We're your hosts, Amanda.
Lindsey:
And I'm Lindsey, and we want you to join us while we creep.
Amanda:
We cover mature topics.
Amanda:
Listener discretion is advised.
Amanda:
Hello, everyone.
Amanda:
Welcome back to another Christmas true crime episode.
Amanda:
Today we are going to discuss the Sodder family and a house fire that led to some of their family members having an unknown fate.
Amanda:
ook place on Christmas Eve in:
Amanda:
We tried to gather any known details about the family, but as you know, with older cases, it's sometimes hard to find as much as we're used to.
Amanda:
So we tried to include as much as we could, but unfortunately there's not a lot out there.
Amanda:
Now, before we get into it, as a reminder, True Creeps takes December off from new episodes, but we will be back with all of your favorite spooky content in January.
Lindsey:
We will miss you.
Amanda:
We will.
Amanda:
And for our Patreon members, you will not get charged for a month.
Amanda:
So while we're off, you don't get charged.
Amanda:
So with all of that being said, let's get into our story.
Amanda:
We are going to tell the story in an order that we believe is easiest to understand, as there's a lot of events that may play a role in the fire and the mystery.
Lindsey:
rated to the United States in:
Lindsey:
He was born in Tulsa, Sardinia, in Italy.
Lindsey:
He came to America with his older brother, but his brother got homesick, so he went back to Italy.
Lindsey:
George worked on the Pennsylvania Railroad when he was a teenager and he would carry water and supplies to the laborers.
Lindsey:
He did this for a few years.
Lindsey:
After that, he moved to Smithers, West Virginia.
Lindsey:
There he worked as a taxi driver before launching his own trucking company, then did a variety of things.
Lindsey:
I love to see the American dream alive and well.
Amanda:
Yes, yes.
Lindsey:
Came in, started, and then was able to grow.
Lindsey:
So he would haul dirt for construction and then later he hauled freight and coal.
Lindsey:
He also realized that people needed goods from the railroads transported to their homes, so he would do that as well.
Lindsey:
His granddaughter later described him as a modern day Amazon.
Amanda:
I thought that was cute.
Lindsey:
So during this time when he had his trucking business, George actually ended up getting a few of his own coal mines, but he ended up selling them because he lost one of his employees and it broke his heart.
Lindsey:
So he sold all of his mines.
Lindsey:
He then resumed trucking.
Lindsey:
I could see how you could be like, why I can't do that again.
Lindsey:
That's too heartbreaking.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Like I feel like he took care of his employees a bit and like had a good connection is what it seems like.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And so like losing one's heartbreaking and it just, I don't know, it, it gave us like a look at like what kind of man he was.
Lindsey:
Seems like a good dude.
Lindsey:
So George met Jenny when he visited a local store called the Music Box.
Lindsey:
Jenny was Jenny Cipriani at the time.
Lindsey:
She was the store owner's daughter.
Lindsey:
Jenny had also come from Italy, but it was just a toddler when they moved.
Lindsey:
George and Jenny got married and.
Lindsey:
Sorry.
Lindsey:
children between:
Amanda:
20 years, 10 children.
Amanda:
My goodness.
Lindsey:
Woof.
Lindsey:
I'm exhausted just even thinking and.
Lindsey:
Or hearing about it.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
And the Sodder family lived in Fayetteville, West Virginia, which is a small Appalachian town, which, you know, we're going to then lump this into our Appalachian series.
Lindsey:
Of course, part of it.
Lindsey:
It'll go on the Appalachian playlist that we have.
Lindsey:
Yes.
Lindsey:
So the area had a small but active Italian immigrant community.
Lindsey:
mily as they were composed in:
Lindsey:
There was George, the father, who was 50, and then there was Jenny, who was the mom, and she was in her early 40s as we mentioned a moment ago.
Lindsey:
Ten children, nine of them were home the night of the fire.
Lindsey:
Joe was drafted into the army during World War II and he had not returned home yet.
Lindsey:
John, 23, worked with his father before the fire.
Lindsey:
One news article stated that he had just come home from the military.
Lindsey:
Marion, possibly known as Mary Ann later in life, was the eldest daughter and she was 17 to 19 years old and she worked as a shop assistant at a dime store.
Lindsey:
George Jr.
Lindsey:
Who was 16, also worked with his father.
Lindsey:
There was then 14 year old Maurice, 12 year old Martha Lewis, who was 9, but almost 10 from what we could find.
Lindsey:
His birthday was December 30th, so just a few days away from his birthday.
Lindsey:
Many sources list him as being 10 because it was so close.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Then there was 8 year old Jenny, 5 year old Betty and 3 year old Sylvia.
Amanda:
Big family.
Amanda:
Yes.
Amanda:
So for this case, we got a lot of information from old newspaper articles.
Amanda:
So it's really interesting to read them.
Amanda:
You know, they're a lot different from today's articles.
Amanda:
However, a lot of information seemed to conflict between each article and when they were published.
Amanda:
So some of the things will say this is what we've seen.
Amanda:
But again, it's an old case and a lot of it is newspaper articles.
Amanda:
So it's just interesting how much things can differ depending on like who published it.
Amanda:
But anyways, per newspaper article, Dillard Engie, the owner of a dry cleaning shop, said that the family was industrious and close knit.
Amanda:
y worked with George often in:
Amanda:
So they had like a good relationship.
Amanda:
Dillard said, quote, the Sodders were one of the most respected middle class families around, so they had a good standing right in their area.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
George had very strong opinions about almost everything though, and that included business, current events and even politics.
Amanda:
He also didn't talk about his time in Italy and never explained why he left.
Amanda:
Remember, he came with his brother.
Amanda:
His brother went back pretty quickly and left him alone in a brand new country.
Amanda:
So I feel for the guy.
Amanda:
We bring this information up because it is a reason some theories exist and we're going to talk about that later.
Amanda:
ve on to Christmas Eve night,:
Amanda:
George, John and George Jr.
Amanda:
Had returned home after working and they were exhausted.
Amanda:
They had a long day.
Amanda:
I read one article that said that they were busy delivering groceries that day.
Amanda:
So I believe they had two trucks between the three of them and they were all working all day long.
Amanda:
So the three of them went to bed early.
Amanda:
They were done with the day.
Amanda:
That evening Marian had come home and she had brought gifts for her younger siblings and she had saved up money while she was working to be able to purchase them these gifts, which is very sweet.
Amanda:
Good big sister.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
The kids were stoked to play with their new toys and they didn't want to go to bed, so they asked if they could stay up.
Lindsey:
Classic kid behavior, right?
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
They get new toys.
Lindsey:
They're like, yeah, who needs sleep?
Amanda:
We got toys.
Amanda:
And so they asked to stay up.
Amanda:
And this would have been around 10pm is what it's estimated.
Amanda:
Jenny said that they could stay up as long as Louis and Maurice remembered to feed the chickens and cows and make sure that the chicken coop was locked up for the night.
Amanda:
So they had like their normal daily chores.
Lindsey:
Yeah, I was like, I'm sure that they had done that a thousand times.
Amanda:
Yeah, for sure.
Amanda:
So then Jenny took Sylvia, the littlest one, to bed with her A few hours later, a little after midnight, the phone rang and it woke Jenny up.
Amanda:
The phone was located in the office, which was also downstairs where her and George's room was.
Amanda:
She went to answer it, and she heard an unknown female voice on the other end.
Amanda:
The caller then asked to speak with a man's name who Jenny didn't know.
Amanda:
Jenny said something like, wrong house and hung up.
Amanda:
She did note, though, that the caller laughed and she could hear laughing and like clinking of glasses in the background.
Amanda:
So maybe a party.
Amanda:
Christmas Eve party.
Amanda:
I don't know.
Lindsey:
That's very bizarre though.
Amanda:
Mm.
Amanda:
Mm.
Amanda:
So she headed back to bed, and as she did so, she noticed that the downstairs lights were still on, the curtains were still open, and the front door was unlocked.
Amanda:
Marion was asleep on the couch, so she assumed the other kids had just gone upstairs to go to bed.
Amanda:
She turned off the lights, or possibly some of the lights because it doesn't really say which ones were on, but we believe something was on.
Amanda:
Could have been Christmas lights, by the way, but she turned off some of the lights, closed the curtains, locked the door, and then headed back to bed.
Amanda:
Now, when Jenny was almost back to sleep, she heard a noise that sounded like something had hit the roof.
Amanda:
In one of the articles, it described it like a rubber ball hitting the roof, then rolling off before hitting the ground with like a.
Amanda:
A loud thump.
Amanda:
We all can imagine that, right?
Amanda:
She listened to see if it was going to happen again.
Amanda:
So she just sat there like, okay, is something like continually happening?
Amanda:
Was it just something strange?
Amanda:
I don't know, an animal, whatever.
Lindsey:
I can imagine that feeling that like, okay, what was that?
Lindsey:
You know, that pause?
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And you're like, okay, it didn't happen again.
Amanda:
It's safe to just go back to sleep.
Amanda:
So she dismissed it.
Amanda:
She tried to go back to sleep.
Amanda:
Now, when Jenny woke up again, it was around 1am and it was to smoke pouring into her bedroom.
Amanda:
She jumped up to see what was going on and she opened the door to the adjoining room where the phone was and it was also filled with smoke.
Amanda:
She yelled at George to wake up and he jumped up immediately.
Amanda:
She also yelled for Marian to get up and grab Sylvia because remember, she was just like out in the next room.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
And she was just three.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Sylvia is just three.
Amanda:
So she's a baby, right?
Lindsey:
Yeah, yeah.
Amanda:
She has no idea what's happening.
Amanda:
So Marian goes in, grabs Sylvia from her bed, which was within the parents room, just to paint the picture, and she ran outside.
Amanda:
Mind you, it's a very cold night.
Amanda:
They're in, like, their bed clothes, right.
Amanda:
So no shoes, no anything.
Amanda:
They just run outside.
Amanda:
Now, Jenny runs to the attic stairs where the children would have been sleeping and yelled for them.
Amanda:
I believe it should have just been the older kids up there, though.
Amanda:
And some sources say it was George that ran over to yell for the kids and that he included directions for them to wake up and then wake up.
Amanda:
The other children, John and George Jr.
Amanda:
Stumble down and they either run outside or they're with their dad for a few minutes.
Amanda:
Now, when they did make it outside, they did singe their hair on the way out.
Amanda:
So just like telling you how big this fire was, now George yelled towards the next room where the kids should have been sleeping, and he thought he may have heard an answer.
Amanda:
Now, this is a debated thing, though.
Amanda:
Some say that he heard a voice, and some say that he never heard anything, but it was just so chaotic.
Amanda:
He was just trying to get everyone out.
Amanda:
There is one source, though, that mentioned that John may have said at one point that he went into the room where the kids were sleeping and shook them to wake them up.
Amanda:
But later there's speculation that he may have just said that out of guilt because that's what he wished he would have done, is gone to, like, find the rest of his siblings.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
So unknown.
Amanda:
So either the two older boys ran outside, or, like I mentioned, they helped their dad.
Amanda:
And from what I understand, he was trying to get back upstairs where the kids would have been, but the fire took the staircase.
Amanda:
Like, it was just covered in flames.
Amanda:
There was no way.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
So he was just trying to figure out, how else can I get up to the second floor?
Lindsey:
So Jenny and George made it outside, but quickly realized that five of the kids were not outside.
Lindsey:
We're going to talk about George's attempts to save his children.
Lindsey:
We're not sure of the order that these happened in, so we're just.
Lindsey:
We're going to talk about them, but they happened perhaps not in this order.
Lindsey:
Also, as a side note, it's been a moment since we reminded you, but my dog Moose snores very loudly and she's snoozing right now.
Lindsey:
So let's talk about those attempts.
Lindsey:
George grabbed a bucket, hoping to fill it with water, but the water barrel, slash rain barrel, was frozen solid because it was a very cold night in December.
Lindsey:
From what we understand by this point, the stairs inside were covered in flames, making it impossible for George to safely get upstairs to look for the kids.
Lindsey:
But it did not stop him from trying.
Lindsey:
He searched the downstairs rooms but did not find any of his children.
Lindsey:
The downstairs rooms consisted of a living room, a dining room, kitchen, office and the parents bedroom.
Lindsey:
What he believed was that the five missing children were likely upstairs on the second floor, likely in two bedrooms on opposite ends of the hallway.
Lindsey:
The bedrooms would have been separated by the staircase.
Amanda:
That's horrific to think of.
Lindsey:
It's horrific to think of in terms of like, well, first off, the staircase is gone.
Lindsey:
You cannot get up there, which means that they can't get down.
Lindsey:
And you're like, okay, if I get up there, which way do I run first?
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
So he tried to scale the house's wall but wasn't able to.
Lindsey:
He ran for his ladder that was always left in the same place, but it wasn't where it normally was.
Lindsey:
Then him and the two boys tried to back their two trucks to the house so that they could stand on top of them to reach the stairs.
Lindsey:
But the engines wouldn't turn over, which was strange because they had worked fine on Christmas Eve, which was like the night before.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Because remember this is like the wee morning, so just hours before these were working.
Lindsey:
Also it says something that they were willing to back up gasoline machines to the fire.
Lindsey:
You know what I mean?
Lindsey:
Like they are trying literally anything they can.
Lindsey:
So during all of this, at one point George broke a window and he cut his arm, which he was later treated at the hospital for.
Lindsey:
His voice also hurt from screaming his children's names, which I would imagine, like, how do you just the sound that would come from a person if they knew that someone they loved was in a burning building, especially if they were a kid, at least they would know you were trying.
Amanda:
Yes.
Lindsey:
So Marian ran to the neighbor's home to see if she could call the volunteer fire department, but wasn't able to get a hold of the night operator.
Lindsey:
And the neighbor blamed their party line system, which as a reminder, a party line system is when several people have one phone line.
Lindsey:
A different neighbor who saw the fire from a nearby tavern also tried but wasn't able to get a response either.
Lindsey:
They ended up driving to town to get help and found the fire chief, F.J.
Lindsey:
morris.
Lindsey:
He initiated what we will call their version of a fire alarm.
Lindsey:
eer firefighter system in the:
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And that's time consuming.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
And the firehouse, which was just two and a half miles away, did not arrive until 8am and as a reminder, Jenny woke up to the smoke pouring into her bedroom at 1am so it took hours and hours for the fire department to be able to get there, which is bizarre.
Lindsey:
Cruickshank, a firefighter in:
Lindsey:
Everyone was a volunteer, and they didn't have much equipment.
Lindsey:
Another source mentioned that the fire department had been depleted by the war and that the fire chief couldn't drive the truck and needed to wait for someone who could.
Amanda:
Oh, that's stressful and so sad because.
Amanda:
Yeah, I mean, what else could they have done?
Amanda:
I mean, I feel like he should have been able to drive the truck, but outside of that, with everyone being, like, called to the war.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
So by the time the fire department arrived, the house was completely gone.
Amanda:
All that remained was ashes.
Amanda:
Officials would later describe the fire as one of the worst fires in the town's history.
Amanda:
The family assumed the missing children had died in the fire, but when them and authorities sifted through what was left, they didn't find any remains.
Amanda:
So to paint the picture, the fire department arrives, they pour some water on what was still, you know, smoldering.
Amanda:
And then them and the family sifted through, but didn't find any sign of the children.
Lindsey:
And when we say any sign of the children, we mean bones.
Amanda:
Yes, but we don't believe that they searched very long because it was either late morning or early afternoon when they announced that nothing was found.
Amanda:
So thinking about, like, how they had to put it out, that would take a little bit of time to make it cool enough to be able to, like, sift through.
Amanda:
So I just.
Amanda:
I don't think it happened very long.
Amanda:
Also, remember, it's Christmas Day, too.
Amanda:
So some say, like, that's why it was kind of like, well, I mean, we can't save them, so this is what we can do.
Amanda:
And then other places say, well, they just did it quickly.
Amanda:
It wasn't done correctly, and they may have planned on coming back to search more in the future, but they're just like, it's Christmas Day.
Amanda:
We can't do it today.
Amanda:
F.J.
Amanda:
morris suggested that the fire had been hot enough to completely cremate the bodies, including their bones.
Amanda:
To note, none of the family members ever saw movement in any of the windows, and no one reported smelling burning flesh.
Amanda:
So them nor any of the neighbors that gathered.
Lindsey:
I also do think the mind would delete that smell from your brain.
Lindsey:
I think that trauma would.
Lindsey:
Yeah, would make you just select all.
Amanda:
Delete for the family, I would say.
Amanda:
So.
Amanda:
I just don't know if the neighbors, you know, I don't know.
Amanda:
That's a toss up.
Lindsey:
No.
Lindsey:
Even if I don't know a person, if I'm smelling a person burning, I hope my brain does a.
Lindsey:
Does a thing where it's like, fuck it.
Lindsey:
Absolutely not.
Lindsey:
You don't need to remember what that smells like, you know, like, yeah, that's fair, that's fair.
Amanda:
But I mean, no one did see anyone in any of the upstairs windows either.
Lindsey:
That's what I find strange, is because they would have woken up at some point if they were in there and alive.
Amanda:
Agreed.
Amanda:
So let's talk about the investigation and the findings.
Amanda:
And I say investigation very loosely.
Amanda:
State police and a representative of the state fire marshal's office blamed faulty wiring as the cause for the fire.
Amanda:
They believed that it was a short circuit in the wiring in the rear of the home.
Amanda:
But then in one source, it said that the family later found out that the fire started on the roof.
Amanda:
Now, we also want to note that it was windy that night, so it could have been the reason why the fire spread so quickly.
Amanda:
So as far as the house goes, it was completely burned.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
However, the basement was still semi present.
Amanda:
George used a bulldozer to cover that basement with about 5ft of dirt to make a memorial for the kids on December 29th.
Amanda:
So just a few days later.
Amanda:
And he may have done this before authorities were able to conduct a more complete search of the property.
Amanda:
So I know he was grieving.
Amanda:
He was just like, they're dead.
Amanda:
We need to, like, do something positive for them.
Amanda:
Sad either way.
Lindsey:
I cannot fathom parents having a possible gravesite for their children where they sifted through, covering up the site of where their children's remains would be if they hadn't, like, gone through and, like, touched everything, Dug everywhere.
Lindsey:
Yes, they had gone through and been like, if our babies were here, we would have found them.
Amanda:
Correct.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
So, like, the family, from what I saw, they did several extended searches by themselves without authorities present.
Amanda:
But again, some articles kind of contradict each other as to what they did, how they did it, how long they did it, and that sort of thing.
Amanda:
And then after he covered it with dirt, they either planted flowers over the space where the house used to be, or they were making plans to do so.
Lindsey:
,:
Lindsey:
A coroner's inquest had been held, and the fire was ruled accidental.
Lindsey:
But because they didn't find proof that the children died in the fire, George and Jenny had doubts the kids were dead, and they suspected that they may have been kidnapped and that the fire was set intentionally.
Amanda:
This took a big turn.
Lindsey:
A big turn.
Lindsey:
But also, I mean, I feel like.
Lindsey:
I feel like we hinted to it, we were like.
Lindsey:
She assumed they were upstairs.
Amanda:
Mm.
Amanda:
Yes.
Lindsey:
So there were a few different reasons why they suspected that the children were actually missing and not dead.
Lindsey:
First, they had the wiring in their house checked a few months before the fire in the fall by the power company.
Lindsey:
They said it was in safe working order.
Lindsey:
And we did see at some point that they had installed an electric stove.
Lindsey:
So that may have been why they had someone come out.
Amanda:
Makes sense.
Lindsey:
Additionally, Jenny noticed the lights were on shortly before the fire, and some sources say some lights were still on during the fire.
Lindsey:
Earlier, Amanda mentioned the lightsaber, and that's why we brought up that she may not have turned out all of the lights when she had gotten up earlier.
Lindsey:
Because people said they saw lights.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Now, the lights that were still on during the fire also may have been some of the Christmas lights inside the house.
Lindsey:
But think about this.
Lindsey:
If it was wiring or, you know, there was something wrong with it, or there was a short circuit, wouldn't the lights be off because they're powered by electricity.
Lindsey:
Bizarre.
Amanda:
Especially during the fire.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
So as the fire's going on and there's still lights that you can see inside, it just doesn't seem like everything would have been.
Lindsey:
Yeah, I don't know.
Amanda:
Any sort of wiring.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
And also, like, when you have, like, a short circuit, like, it's sparking and, like, weird things are happening to the wires.
Lindsey:
The first thing that happens, from my understanding, is like, power's lost.
Lindsey:
So another strange thing about that wiring.
Lindsey:
A few months before the fire, a stranger had come to the house asking about, you know, if he could get some more calling.
Lindsey:
And he went to the back of the house, pointed to two separate fuse boxes and said, this is going to cause a fire someday.
Lindsey:
George didn't think anything of it because he had just had it checked by the power company and they had said it was fine.
Lindsey:
That's also just like a very strange, like, that's going to cause a fire.
Lindsey:
I'm like, I don't fucking know you.
Lindsey:
Right.
Lindsey:
Also, explain yourself.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Then there's that strange phone call that happened.
Lindsey:
Another reason why they're like, maybe they're missing.
Lindsey:
Then the strange noise on the roof right before.
Lindsey:
And then the fact that the ladder that was always in the same place had been moved.
Lindsey:
They later found it, quote, sometime after the fire.
Lindsey:
And it was 75 to 80ft over an embankment near the house.
Lindsey:
Fucking weird.
Lindsey:
And then adding more strangeness.
Lindsey:
The truck's not starting.
Lindsey:
So here we have this collection of strange instances that are happening right around the time of the fire and these children going missing.
Lindsey:
So it seems like there's a lot going on, More than just a fire.
Amanda:
Yes, yes.
Amanda:
And so let's piggyback off of those strange occurrences and we're going to lean into the kids possibly being kidnapped because there's also some strange things that happened to the family.
Amanda:
Some before the fire and some observations after the fire.
Amanda:
So two months before the fire, the family was visited by a life insurance salesman.
Amanda:
This one gets me.
Amanda:
rge had worked with him until:
Amanda:
And it seems like it wasn't in, like, a good way.
Amanda:
They weren't happy with each other.
Amanda:
After they parted ways, that same man was the co signer of the family's $1,500 home insurance and had increased the amount to $1,750 without their knowledge.
Lindsey:
Suspicious.
Amanda:
Very weird.
Amanda:
Very suspicious.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
So he came over to try to talk.
Amanda:
George and Jenny to take out life insurance on their children.
Lindsey:
Do not like this.
Amanda:
No.
Amanda:
When he realized that he wasn't going to make a sale, he became super pissed off and yelled at George.
Amanda:
He said something along the lines of, your goddamn house is going to burn up in smoke and your children are going to be destroyed.
Amanda:
You are going to be paid for the dirty remarks you have been making about Mussolini.
Amanda:
We couldn't find more details on this interaction, Only that the salesman got mad and then he said something along those remarks.
Lindsey:
Very bizarre.
Amanda:
Very bizarre.
Lindsey:
Who threatens someone's children over like, a business sale?
Lindsey:
Suspicious.
Amanda:
Suspicious.
Amanda:
Yes.
Amanda:
And we're going to bring it up later.
Amanda:
But George was pretty vocal in the community about not liking Mussolini and sometimes gotten really heated debates with people which like, okay, when this interaction happened with the salesman, George didn't think anything of it.
Amanda:
He didn't think the threat was real.
Amanda:
He was just like, this guy's pissed.
Lindsey:
And trying to make a sale.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Now, from what we saw, we didn't see any proof that the salesman was ever questioned, which is very concerning.
Amanda:
That.
Lindsey:
Does that make any fucking sense?
Amanda:
No.
Lindsey:
No.
Amanda:
A few days before the fire, the older sons noticed a weird man watching the younger kids arrive home from school.
Amanda:
He also may have done this several times, according to some news articles.
Amanda:
And basically what happened is this strange man was parked in his car and, like, would watch the kids go home.
Lindsey:
Dislike.
Amanda:
Dislike that.
Amanda:
Yep.
Amanda:
Another Weird thing.
Amanda:
A telephone repair man told the family that it looks like their phone lines had been cut, not burned.
Amanda:
So when he came after the fire, he's like, by the way, hmm, Another weird thing, because the phone also worked shortly before the fire.
Amanda:
A witness later came forward and said that he saw a man at the scene of the fire taking a block and tackle, which is used for removing car engines.
Amanda:
However, later, the man, he was identified as Lonnie Johnson, did plead guilty to stealing the block and tackle, but he said he was not involved with the fire.
Amanda:
He also may have admitted to cutting the lines on the house, thinking that they were power lines.
Amanda:
And it could have been the phone line, which is still weird.
Amanda:
Like, if he's stealing something, I don't know why he would be cutting lines.
Amanda:
Also, to note, the phone lines were 14ft above the ground and 2ft from the utility pole.
Amanda:
So, like, it's not an easy thing to reach.
Amanda:
And I didn't see this anywhere.
Amanda:
But I don't know if maybe he was the one that moved the ladder.
Amanda:
I don't know how big the ladder was, but, like, also, why.
Amanda:
Why would he be doing that?
Amanda:
It makes no sense to me.
Lindsey:
He also may have dropped something on the house, like, when he was doing that, because the power, like, they would be near the house.
Amanda:
So weird.
Amanda:
Weird.
Amanda:
But he did.
Amanda:
He got in trouble for stealing during all of this chaos.
Amanda:
Additionally, Lonnie was later questioned by a private investigator that the Sodders hired.
Amanda:
He allegedly said something like, quote, getting damn tired of taking the rap for those people in Fayetteville.
Amanda:
So many speculate that he maybe was hired to do something, but nothing was ever confirmed.
Amanda:
Also, just to paint the picture, as the fire's going on, lots of neighbors crowded around the home, so it likely was chaos.
Amanda:
And not everyone was seeing what everyone was doing.
Amanda:
Everyone's, like, focused on the fire.
Lindsey:
Yes.
Lindsey:
So when the family went back to the area to visit the memorial George had made, possibly months later, Sylvia, the youngest kid, found a hard rubber object in the yard.
Lindsey:
It was, quote, military green, hollow, and had a twist off cap.
Lindsey:
Jenny believed that it was the item that she had heard hit the roof a bit before the fire.
Lindsey:
George inspected the object and believed it to be a napalm pineapple bomb.
Lindsey:
Later, some news articles even stated that the army authorities confirmed that it was a napalm bomb.
Amanda:
That's terrifying.
Lindsey:
Terrifying.
Lindsey:
There was also a late night bus driver who said they remembered seeing, quote, balls of fire being tossed onto the roof.
Lindsey:
I just feel like, why wouldn't you call Someone, then.
Amanda:
I don't know.
Amanda:
I don't know.
Amanda:
It just seems like there's so many fucking weird things, right?
Lindsey:
Yes.
Lindsey:
Jenny, in an effort to figure out if her children died in the fire, started experimenting with burning various types of animal bones to see what would happen.
Lindsey:
But every time charred bones were left, she also saw a newspaper article that there was a house similar to hers that had burned down and killed seven people.
Lindsey:
In that home, all seven skeletons were found.
Lindsey:
Jenny also spoke with someone who worked in cremation.
Lindsey:
They told her that some bones were left behind after cremation.
Lindsey:
Even when burned at 2,000 degrees for two hours, the home only really burned for 45 minutes.
Lindsey:
And also, when looking at the remains of their home, they saw parts of the household appliances in that rubble.
Lindsey:
So clearly it wasn't a fire that was like, burning everything recognizable to complete ash.
Lindsey:
So it wouldn't have been hot.
Lindsey:
It wouldn't have been, like, above 2,000 degrees.
Lindsey:
s, then it likely wasn't that:
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
Or it burned differently depending on different rooms, perhaps.
Amanda:
Mm.
Amanda:
There's a lot of questions.
Lindsey:
Yes.
Lindsey:
The parent.
Lindsey:
So Jenny and George truly believed that their kids could still be alive.
Lindsey:
And they had other reasons, in addition to everything that we've already given, to believe it might be possible.
Lindsey:
For example, there were reported sightings of the children over the years, and there were strange things that happened during the investigation.
Lindsey:
So one sighting happened the night of the fire.
Lindsey:
A woman claimed to have seen the kids in a car that drove by while the fire was still happening.
Lindsey:
So Sad.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
About 50 miles northwest of their home, another witness saw them on Christmas.
Lindsey:
She operated at a local tourist stop, and she said that she saw the kids that Christmas morning and that she'd served them breakfast.
Lindsey:
She also knew that there was a car with Florida license plates parked in their parking lot then in Charleston.
Lindsey:
So we're moving south, by the way.
Lindsey:
Another woman reported seeing four of the five kids about a week after the fire at a Charleston hotel.
Lindsey:
In her statement, she said the children were accompanied by two women and two men, all of Italian extraction.
Lindsey:
I do not remember the exact date.
Lindsey:
However, the entire party did register at the hotel and stayed in a large room with several beds.
Lindsey:
They registered about midnight.
Lindsey:
I tried to talk to the children in a friendly manner, but the men appeared hostile and refused to allow me to talk to these children.
Lindsey:
One of the men looked at me in a hostile manner.
Lindsey:
He turned around and began talking rapidly in Italian.
Lindsey:
Immediately, the whole Party stopped talking to me.
Lindsey:
I sensed that I was being frozen out.
Lindsey:
And so I said nothing more.
Lindsey:
They left early the next morning.
Amanda:
That's scary.
Lindsey:
That's very scary.
Lindsey:
A few years later, George was reading the newspaper and saw a photo of school children in New York City.
Lindsey:
One of the kids looked just like Betty.
Lindsey:
So he drove up to New York to see if he could find any information.
Lindsey:
And he was able to track down those kids, the kids parents, but they wouldn't talk to him.
Lindsey:
Could you even.
Lindsey:
I can't even.
Lindsey:
My heart just breaks for him.
Amanda:
Mm.
Amanda:
Mm.
Amanda:
And just that years later, he's sitting there still, like, with the hope that.
Lindsey:
His kids are alive.
Amanda:
And then seeing a picture and been like, I found one.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And then being let down.
Lindsey:
Well, and it's also.
Lindsey:
If I found one, if I can find one, then maybe that means, you know, like.
Amanda:
Oh, yeah.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Then in:
Lindsey:
They offered to help, but the Fayetteville police and fire department denied their offer to assist.
Lindsey:
Fuck off.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
So then they moved on.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
They tried to hire a private investigator.
Amanda:
His name was C.C.
Amanda:
tinsley.
Amanda:
I did see some news articles call him Oscar Tinsley.
Amanda:
But there was also a man named Tinsley with, I believe, the name Oscar.
Amanda:
So it may have been a misspelling, I'm not sure.
Amanda:
But anyways, something Tinsley, perhaps.
Amanda:
What he was able to find is that the coroner's jury who deemed the fire an accident included a suspicious person.
Amanda:
Hmm.
Amanda:
It was that fucking salesman that had freaked out on George.
Amanda:
He was within the coroner's jury.
Amanda:
Again, he was never questioned and he was a prominent member of the community, so no one looked at him twice.
Lindsey:
I fucking hate it.
Amanda:
Also, the private detective interviewed people in the town.
Amanda:
In his interviews, he heard that there was a rumor that the fire chief had found a heart or possibly some other remains in the ashes of the home.
Lindsey:
I don't think you'd find an organization.
Amanda:
No.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
That's fucking weird.
Lindsey:
Just a lone organ.
Lindsey:
Bizarre.
Amanda:
No.
Amanda:
So it was either in an interview or Morris straight up told the family about it.
Amanda:
I'm not sure how they finally got the information.
Amanda:
Some speculate that maybe something was found, but maybe Morris didn't follow the right protocol that morning with the found remains.
Amanda:
So kind of debated.
Amanda:
Anyways, he claimed that whatever he found, he put in a box and buried it where the home was.
Amanda:
Which isn't the right thing to do, right?
Amanda:
Very weird.
Amanda:
Tinsley talked the fire chief into showing him where the box was buried.
Amanda:
He dug it up and it turned out not to be a heart, but a beef liver.
Amanda:
It also had no evidence of ever being in a fire, because like you said, like an organ making it through a fire but not a bone is very weird.
Lindsey:
Yeah, very, very weird.
Amanda:
Then the family heard other rumors about Morris saying that he didn't find the organization in the remains of the house, like, at all, but he had buried the beef liver in the rubble in hopes that finding any remains would placate the family enough to stop investigating.
Lindsey:
Well, why?
Lindsey:
Why have them stop investigating?
Lindsey:
You know?
Amanda:
And that's kind of debated.
Amanda:
So it's like either he was trying to give them mercy and just have some sort of closure that their kids were gone, but then other people are like, why the fuck would he do that?
Amanda:
Like, if you found something that day, you should have said something.
Amanda:
And then others are like, well, it was Christmas Day.
Amanda:
Like they just wanted to get out of there.
Amanda:
But then, like, returning and burying something, I don't know.
Amanda:
I'm all over the place with it.
Amanda:
It seems so weird.
Amanda:
So others believe that he may have done this because a rumor did start that someone found something, and so then he went and put something there just so the family would find something and again get some sort of closure.
Amanda:
I don't know.
Amanda:
Either way, it sounds so weird, but again, remember, it was all volunteer firefighters, too.
Amanda:
So with the lack of training that we brought up, perhaps someone did find something but then didn't do anything about it, and then he was trying to leave something for closure again, just like a big debate.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
In:
Lindsey:
Hunter.
Lindsey:
He excavated the dirt on top of the buried basement, and he was able to find four shards of bones.
Lindsey:
They were human vertebrae, so we sent them to the Smithsonian to be analyzed further.
Lindsey:
They believed that the bones had come from a 16 to 17 year old person.
Lindsey:
And the report said since the transverse recesses are fused, the age of this individual at death should have been 16 or 17.
Lindsey:
The top limit of age should be about 22, since the centra, which normally fuse at 23, are still unfused.
Lindsey:
On this basis, the bones show greater skeletal maturation than one would expect for a 14 year old boy.
Lindsey:
As a note, the oldest missing child was Maurice, who was 14.
Lindsey:
It is, however, possible, although not probable, for a boy 14 and a half years old to show age 16 to 17 maturation.
Amanda:
So that's weird, right?
Amanda:
Like there's something found, but it doesn't really match.
Lindsey:
Yeah, it doesn't really match, but it could, but.
Lindsey:
It could, but it might not.
Lindsey:
I mean, I just feel like that's a big jump.
Lindsey:
And even more bizarre, the bones had no evidence of being exposed to fire.
Lindsey:
So they believe that the bones may have originated from the dirt that George used to fill the basement, which is also unsettling.
Lindsey:
That's also incredibly unsettling.
Lindsey:
I would also say that if someone's out here putting, like, biological material into the crime scene or asking like.
Lindsey:
Or acting like that's happening, I could see them putting bones in there, too.
Lindsey:
So it could have just been from, like, a grave.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
So, unfortunately, DNA testing didn't exist at this time, so they couldn't find out who the bones came from.
Lindsey:
The bones were ultimately given back to George, and no one knows what happened to them after that.
Lindsey:
Another thing to note in that report is that they said one would expect to find full skeletons of five children rather than just four vertebrae.
Lindsey:
When the Smithsonian released the information, the governor of West Virginia, Ohio, Pattinson, called a hearing in the state capitol building in Charleston.
Lindsey:
There, he officially declared the case as closed.
Lindsey:
And then just moving fully from this to another very bizarre fact.
Lindsey:
The family received a letter that the oldest missing daughter, Martha, who was 12 at the time that she went missing, was in a Convent in St.
Lindsey:
Louis.
Lindsey:
What?
Amanda:
So varying informations, right?
Lindsey:
Yes.
Amanda:
Like, they're alive.
Amanda:
Here's proof that they're dead.
Amanda:
Oh, no, they're alive.
Amanda:
Again, just.
Amanda:
I cannot imagine this poor family and, like, what they went through.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
So let's talk about some other possibilities.
Amanda:
Someone in Florida said that the children were living with one of Jenny's distant family members.
Amanda:
Jenny did have a brother named Frank Cipriani in Florida, and they thought that that could be a possibility.
Amanda:
Police in Miami did investigate the claim by looking through birth and school records, but the child that was in Frank's care ended up being his own.
Amanda:
So let's move on to another possible clue.
Amanda:
Someone in Houston, Texas, said that they overheard an incriminating conversation about a long ago Christmas Eve fire in West Virginia from someone at a bar.
Amanda:
Weird bar conversation.
Amanda:
The story has changed in a few different places, but either the incriminating conversation happened, or there was a drunken man claiming to be Lewis.
Amanda:
So some strange conversation happened in this bar.
Amanda:
George investigated many, if not all, the claims and didn't find any information.
Amanda:
There are some articles that say that his search continued in various places and that he traveled to so many places, including Maryland.
Amanda:
But we couldn't find definite details for each claim, only that they were investigated.
Amanda:
There is one, though, that we could find some details on.
Amanda:
And it was in Texas.
Amanda:
nd it happened years later in:
Amanda:
And at this time, George was not in good health.
Amanda:
Him and his son in law drove to Texas.
Amanda:
I believe his son in law drove him there because of his health.
Amanda:
The woman who wrote the letter refused to talk to them.
Amanda:
So George was able to track down the man that she had spoke about and his brother.
Amanda:
They were very nice, but they were not helpful at all.
Amanda:
He left immediately after.
Amanda:
So after he talked to them and the two drove all the way back home.
Amanda:
Later, in an interview in:
Amanda:
She said, quote, I think there was always some doubt in his mind.
Amanda:
I think he always wondered if those were his boys and if he'd made a mistake leaving so quickly.
Amanda:
And I feel like, yeah, like I.
Amanda:
I would probably have that doubt in my mind too, because he's in poor health.
Amanda:
He drove all the way to Texas to explore, you know, another letter that they had received.
Amanda:
And then he finds these boys that could be his, but they're not helpful.
Amanda:
I don't know.
Amanda:
It's weird.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
And just so exhaustingly heartbreaking for him.
Amanda:
Oh, yeah.
Amanda:
Like, he tried.
Amanda:
He was dedicated.
Amanda:
Now this one is fucking weird.
Amanda:
In:
Amanda:
It was postmarked in Kentucky, though, so.
Amanda:
So they kind of know whereabouts right now.
Amanda:
In the letter, there was a photograph of a man in his mid-20s.
Amanda:
George and Jenny both believed that this could be Lewis.
Amanda:
Remember, he was 9 at the time of the fire.
Amanda:
This would have been 23 years later.
Amanda:
They believed that the man had the same eyes as their son, the same hair color and the same nose.
Amanda:
On the back of the photo, it said, Louis Sodder.
Amanda:
I love brother Frankie.
Amanda:
Lil.
Amanda:
Boys.
Amanda:
A:
Amanda:
Chaotic, right?
Amanda:
Just random numbers.
Amanda:
No idea what this means.
Lindsey:
It's both too much and too little information.
Amanda:
Yes.
Amanda:
Yes.
Amanda:
So the Sodders never revealed what was in the message with the photo, nor the town that the postmark came from, because they thought that it could put their son at risk.
Amanda:
So if he had somehow been kidnapped or made it out that if whoever did this found that he was communicating with them, that something bad could happen to him.
Amanda:
Mm.
Amanda:
So it's so sad.
Amanda:
There have been so many theories surrounding this picture and the writing on the back of it and, like, what it could mean.
Amanda:
Some believe that the A number was a zip code.
Amanda:
Others have mentioned that Frankie was A nickname that Lewis used to call Maurice.
Amanda:
And this likely wouldn't have been well known outside of, like, the family and maybe school or friends or, you know, small, tight knit community.
Amanda:
So that's bizarre.
Amanda:
You know, it said, I love brother Frankie.
Amanda:
I don't know, that's just like either someone really fucking with them to be an asshole or it means something.
Amanda:
So after this weird picture letter situation, the family hired a private detective to go to Kentucky to look for him.
Lindsey:
Fair.
Amanda:
I've never said this before.
Amanda:
I don't think in any case, but the fucking detective disappeared.
Amanda:
He was not heard of again.
Amanda:
Mm.
Amanda:
It's unknown what happened to him.
Amanda:
I could not find anything.
Amanda:
I couldn't even find his specific details.
Amanda:
But some theorize that he just took the money and bailed.
Amanda:
And then others are like, maybe something happened to him.
Lindsey:
He figured it out then.
Lindsey:
In:
Lindsey:
And so what's interesting is that over time, as they received more information, they added more to it.
Lindsey:
pdate said, On Christmas Eve,:
Lindsey:
The officials blamed defective wiring, although lights were still burning after the fire started.
Lindsey:
The official report stated that the children died in the fire.
Lindsey:
However, no bones were found in the residue and there was no smell of burning flesh during or after the fire.
Lindsey:
What was the motive of the law officers involved?
Lindsey:
What did they have to gain by making us suffer all of these years of injustice?
Lindsey:
Why did they lie and force us to accept those lies?
Lindsey:
And so even more interesting is they had the pictures of the five children.
Lindsey:
They added a sixth photo in:
Lindsey:
So they had his child photo and then him as an adult.
Amanda:
Mm.
Lindsey:
There was also a $10,000 reward that was offered by George and Jenny, which.
Lindsey:
That's a lot of fucking money at that time.
Amanda:
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Lindsey:
It's a lot of fucking money now.
Lindsey:
So.
Lindsey:
So much more than.
Lindsey:
They also passed out flyers with the information.
Lindsey:
up for many years until about:
Amanda:
Just break your heart.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
I think it makes sense to spend every cent you can.
Lindsey:
It does.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
You know?
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
You shouldn't only give information about missing people because there's something in it for you.
Lindsey:
You should Be a decent fucking human.
Amanda:
Yes.
Lindsey:
aken down after Jenny died in:
Lindsey:
Someone shot at the billboard and Jenny was asked why she never reported the vandalism.
Lindsey:
And she said, what's the use?
Lindsey:
If we had the right kind of law here, they would have done something 30 years ago.
Lindsey:
There's more important things than a billboard.
Lindsey:
Breaks my heart enraged for her.
Lindsey:
She also mentioned that someone had shot at her roof at one point while she was in the backyard gardening and she lived next to the sign.
Lindsey:
She thought that maybe they had even tried to shoot her.
Lindsey:
She mentioned she wasn't scared, though.
Lindsey:
And she said, look, if I was going to die, I would have died in that fire 30 years ago.
Lindsey:
I'm going to fight this thing out and nothing is going to give me to give up hope that my children are still alive.
Lindsey:
After this instance, a fence was built around her home with a locked motorized gate to protect her.
Lindsey:
Her living children also told her to shoot anyone who tried to get in.
Lindsey:
Fair.
Amanda:
I just like, imagine though, she lives by this fucking sign.
Amanda:
So she sees them in the sign every day.
Amanda:
It kind of reminds me of Asia Degree.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
Like they had that sign up by the main road.
Lindsey:
Yes.
Amanda:
But like she lived next to it until she died.
Lindsey:
Mm.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
George died in:
Lindsey:
They died still believing that their children were out there somewhere.
Lindsey:
And after the fire, Jenny only wore black as a sign of mourning until she passed away.
Lindsey:
And as we mentioned before, the billboard came down after she died.
Lindsey:
I also being the surviving siblings and being like, we no longer have our mom, understandably.
Lindsey:
So your mom is now looking for her missing children, so she can't be present for birthdays and Christmas and all the fun things of life because she is thinking of the ones who are not there also reasonably so, but it does make it just a different type of hard.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
So that's all the information about the actual case, what happened, the fire, going through newspaper articles.
Amanda:
And even some people have written things online about either, you know, people they knew in the area or they knew one of the children.
Amanda:
Just a lot of different things.
Amanda:
Now we're going to move into the theories because like we said at the beginning, this is still a mystery.
Amanda:
We don't know what happened to the kids, if they passed away, if they were kidnapped or if they were kidnapped, why.
Amanda:
But many theories to answer these questions.
Amanda:
The first theory is George had some sort of enemy because he was Very vocal about not liking Mussolini, which caused some pretty intense debates within the community.
Amanda:
It could have been a hate crime attributed to the war or possibly people in the community that were just super pissed off that he would speak ill of the old country.
Lindsey:
That's fair.
Amanda:
So that, that's interesting, right?
Amanda:
Like, who would have been this enemy?
Amanda:
And if it was because of the way that he discussed stuff or if it was attributed to the war and all that was going on because there was a lot of hate for immigrants.
Amanda:
It was, was, is now, you know.
Amanda:
So additionally, people speculated that because he never really talked about why he left Italy, that maybe he had left because of something shady.
Amanda:
But to remind you, he came over at 13 years old.
Amanda:
So I have a hard time believing this theory.
Amanda:
I mean, I'm sure back then 13 year olds were like adults now, right?
Amanda:
Like, yeah, they worked, they did a lot more.
Amanda:
But I still in my heart feel like that's weird.
Lindsey:
I could see how maybe the brother brought him here to get him out of a situation, maybe so that he wasn't a part of it.
Lindsey:
And he was like, before they have you do stuff, I'm going to.
Amanda:
That's a sweet way to think of it.
Lindsey:
I'm going to take you away.
Lindsey:
Or maybe like, like, I can't get out, but I can, I can get you out.
Lindsey:
Which is why I went back.
Lindsey:
Or I was even thinking like, if he offended someone or did something that would get him in trouble, his brother taking him here, they're going back home.
Amanda:
Yeah, that totally could be it.
Amanda:
We did find a PBS article that specifically listed Sardinia and the immigration from there to the U.S.
Amanda:
it said, quote, between:
Amanda:
The majority fleeing rule poverty in southern Italy and Sicily.
Amanda:
So it could have played a role in to why the boys came here.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
Like a lot of people were coming, especially in that area.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Again, we don't, we don't know for sure, but I mean, that is a reason.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
And just to add to this, in:
Amanda:
After all, if someone wanted to get me, why would they get my family too?
Amanda:
And so I.
Amanda:
Some people are like, well, that shows that he knew he had an enemy.
Amanda:
I don't know if that says it or just he's trying to figure out why.
Lindsey:
I think that you have to go through every possible reason and someone had beef with the children, it's not high on the list.
Lindsey:
I feel like I would be more inclined to blame myself, you know, be like, it was somebody who was mad at me, not somebody who wanted to hurt my kids.
Lindsey:
Because, like, what do they do?
Lindsey:
They're just babies.
Amanda:
Right, Right.
Amanda:
There's also speculation that some of the locals knew something was going to happen that night, and that's why someone called them before the fire, hoping to wake the family up so that they wouldn't be, like, in a deep sleep when it happened.
Amanda:
Mm.
Amanda:
I don't know that.
Amanda:
That's also, like, an interesting one to think about.
Lindsey:
Oh.
Lindsey:
And that could explain why they said the wrong name.
Lindsey:
Because they couldn't be like, get out of the house.
Lindsey:
But they could say a strange name.
Amanda:
Yes.
Lindsey:
Another theory is the Mafia was involved.
Lindsey:
I feel like when people talk about Italian families, like, the Mafia being involved is, like, high on the list automatically, which.
Lindsey:
I don't know.
Lindsey:
I don't know.
Lindsey:
It's just an observation.
Lindsey:
According to one source, some family members had this theory, but we couldn't find any concrete evidence that this first part that I'm going to mention in a second happened.
Lindsey:
So apparently the local Mafia branch tried to recruit George and he declined.
Lindsey:
Or that he had been involved with the Italian Mafia.
Lindsey:
Now, they tried to extort money out of him, but he refused.
Lindsey:
And the theory goes that the children were kidnapped by someone they knew, someone who came into the unlocked door that night, told them about the fire, and offered to take them to safety.
Lindsey:
If that was Lewis in the photo, the children likely didn't contact their parents in order to protect them.
Lindsey:
So sweet.
Lindsey:
But also, I don't know.
Amanda:
It's a weird one.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
That doesn't sit with him.
Lindsey:
That's a weird one.
Lindsey:
And if he was involved in the Italian Mafia, he was either 113 or he was not honest about his age.
Lindsey:
Maybe another option.
Lindsey:
Right.
Lindsey:
13 and 16.
Lindsey:
That's three years.
Lindsey:
But anyway, when talking about these theories about enemies, many people find it strange that the kids that were allowed to stay up were the ones that went missing or died.
Lindsey:
And what kind of goes with that logic is.
Lindsey:
Is it that someone kidnapped them from the home, or is it that they were actually lured out of the home by someone trying to save them before the fire started?
Lindsey:
I would also say there's, like, also an option where someone lures them out of the home, not to save them, but to kidnap them.
Amanda:
Just sees that kids are up, or maybe that guy that was watching them for a while.
Amanda:
Remember, they had to go outside.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
To Put the chickens away.
Amanda:
I don't know if that happened.
Amanda:
I couldn't find anything that said they did or didn't.
Amanda:
But if they had gone outside, maybe.
Amanda:
I don't know.
Lindsey:
Well, I would say it would be very strange if they hadn't gone out to lock the chickens up, because, like, otherwise, foxes would have gotten them.
Lindsey:
Like, they would have.
Lindsey:
Like the chickens would have died.
Lindsey:
Chickens left to their own devices will not survive the night often, especially in winter time when predators are extra hungry and having a harder time finding food.
Lindsey:
So I would imagine they would have gone outside.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
And that that would have been an easier place to abduct them rather than doing it in the house with other people around.
Lindsey:
Another theory is that the Sodders were targeted by the KKK or a similar hate group.
Lindsey:
ming into America in the late:
Lindsey:
And just like today, people blamed them for the problems that we were facing in our country, like people not being able to find work and crime and things like that.
Lindsey:
And there was also religious tension between Italians and the kkk.
Lindsey:
But if you're thinking of other reasons why hate groups may have particularly disliked Italians, it would be because of the recent war.
Lindsey:
th of:
Lindsey:
So is it a strong link?
Lindsey:
No, but it's a link.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And they.
Amanda:
They were known for doing stuff with fire, too, right?
Amanda:
There is some overlap there.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Another theory is that the kids were kidnapped and taken to Italy or that the kids were sold.
Lindsey:
Some say that they were taken to an orphanage or to the, quote, baby black market, or that maybe they were just human trafficked, heavy.
Lindsey:
So another theory is that an angry World War II veteran seeking revenge on an Italian caused the fire.
Lindsey:
Fucked up.
Lindsey:
Fucked up.
Lindsey:
on, told the Roanoke Times in:
Lindsey:
Or they didn't push it.
Lindsey:
It's a way of life in Fayette County.
Lindsey:
If they want to get rid of you, they get rid of you.
Lindsey:
The most commonly held belief around this is that there was a kidnapping and that the authorities covered it up.
Amanda:
Now, the last theory that breaks my heart, but the kids could have just died in the fire.
Amanda:
teve Cruikshank, also said in:
Amanda:
And just a note, he said garage.
Amanda:
I think he meant basement, because it's noted that George used his basement like a makeshift garage.
Lindsey:
Gotcha.
Amanda:
So, I mean, that.
Amanda:
That is interesting.
Amanda:
Additionally, he said, quote, by covering the fire's embers with dirt in the immediate aftermath of the blaze, George inadvertently created an oven that would have advanced the cremation process.
Amanda:
Now, he didn't cover it, from what I saw for a few days, but, like, I don't know how well they put out the fire if they're still, like, smoldering pieces.
Amanda:
I don't know.
Amanda:
But that is interesting.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
He, too, has been at many unfortunate scenes, and he said, quote, I've sifted through the debris of a home where six people were trapped inside, and I didn't find as much as a single tooth.
Lindsey:
That's pretty fucking bad.
Amanda:
Yeah, that's like modern day, right?
Amanda:
Like:
Amanda:
I feel like they have more stuff to, like, find stuff, you know, and so that makes sense, like, if he wasn't even able to find six people.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
Also, if you remember, another thing brought up by the family was that no one saw the kids come to any of the windows during the fire.
Lindsey:
I fucking hate this.
Lindsey:
I fucking hate this now.
Amanda:
In:
Amanda:
He said, quote, when young children feel heat and smell smoke, they are likely to hide.
Amanda:
We find them under beds, we find them in closets.
Amanda:
We find them curled up in bathtubs.
Amanda:
That breaks my heart.
Lindsey:
I hate that so much.
Amanda:
And so I want to use that, though, as a note.
Amanda:
Practice fire safety drills with young kids, even if they don't seem like they're knowing what the fuck is happening yet still talk about it.
Amanda:
We started as soon as my son could walk.
Amanda:
It's scary to think about and to talk about, but we practiced it, and he still knows exactly what to do now because we did it so much.
Amanda:
So just a thought to insert here.
Lindsey:
And this way, it helps them face it as opposed to getting so scared they're frozen, which is still going to be scary no matter what.
Lindsey:
But this way, they're prepared.
Lindsey:
That's the whole point of being a parent, right, is you prepare them for all the hard fucking stuff.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Yes.
Amanda:
And practice with the fire alarms, too, because.
Lindsey:
Oh, yeah, because they're loud.
Amanda:
I know.
Amanda:
I panic when it's going off because ours seems to always go off at like 4 or 5 in the morning when they run out of batteries.
Amanda:
Right.
Lindsey:
There's a fire in the hall.
Amanda:
Gosh, yeah, you've heard that.
Amanda:
Ours have gone off.
Amanda:
It was like four or five.
Amanda:
And we have smart alarms, so it tells us where the fire is, if there's one.
Amanda:
So we woke up to, there's a fire in the hallway over and over and over again.
Amanda:
Beep, beep, beep.
Amanda:
Fire in the hallway.
Amanda:
So, like, we jump out of bed because my son's room near the hallway, there was no fire in the hallway.
Amanda:
But I'm like, oh, fuck.
Amanda:
Maybe it was in the attic or something like that.
Amanda:
So I get him out, get the animals out, everything's fine.
Amanda:
But that's the running joke now is if anything ever goes off, he'll randomly come out of his room and be like, beep, beep, beep.
Amanda:
There's a fire in the hallway.
Amanda:
And for no reason, that's just burned into his head.
Lindsey:
But anyways, Goof.
Amanda:
Okay.
Amanda:
So there is another article where Sterling Lewis was interviewed again.
Amanda:
And he suggested that the kids likely died quickly due to smoke inhalation.
Lindsey:
A small blessing if they did die.
Amanda:
You know, like, quick.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
When asked about how the two boys were able to get up and leave but the other kids didn't, they said that things like this do happen often.
Amanda:
Quote, we'll find individuals laying in bed dead, and then we'll find another individual that's laying a foot away from the door.
Amanda:
So same room, One was able to get up, one wasn't.
Amanda:
When we looked into it, kids can die or pass out from smoke inhalation, depending on the density and, you know, heat of the smoke and all of that, but in as little as two minutes.
Lindsey:
And that's not even accounting for if they're asthmatic.
Lindsey:
Yeah, yeah, right.
Lindsey:
Like, it could be even less than.
Amanda:
And the averages that we saw seem to be around 2 to 10 minutes total.
Amanda:
And they normally lump.
Amanda:
I saw in a lot of things, they lump.
Amanda:
Kids and pets together.
Amanda:
So very similar.
Amanda:
Like, I mean, think about it.
Amanda:
Their lungs, little kids, and like, a dog's lungs.
Amanda:
Very similar.
Amanda:
There was like, one little pamphlet thing that we were able to find online.
Amanda:
It's in our resources, our show notes.
Amanda:
But it did say, like, children have this long.
Amanda:
And then it, like, goes into all dog and cat safety, which I was interested in, but interesting.
Amanda:
So all of that to say there is a pretty big possibility that they never even left or tried to leave their room.
Amanda:
And so if they were indeed inside the home, you know, they Weren't kidnapped.
Amanda:
There's many reasons why they wouldn't have made it to the window.
Lindsey:
Makes sense.
Amanda:
So as far as this case goes for not finding remains, Sterling also mentioned that bodies can be destroyed in fires, and usually what is left turns, quote, beautiful shades of red, which is unsettling to think about.
Lindsey:
I don't like that phrasing.
Amanda:
No.
Amanda:
So he was describing when he's looking at everything.
Amanda:
So it's like black and grays.
Amanda:
You know, think of ashes that what they look for is pops of red because that lets them know that someone died there or near there.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Although the family has said numerous times that no body parts were found outside of those bones.
Amanda:
You know, the few that they got looked at by the Smithsonian.
Amanda:
Some people that gathered around the home claim that they did see remains, but that's never been confirmed one way or another.
Amanda:
Some say, yep, for sure.
Amanda:
Neighbors said it.
Amanda:
Others are like, no one was ever interviewed about this.
Amanda:
So I don't know either way, they only searched for a short time on Christmas Eve.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
And then it was only a few days later that George covered everything with dirt.
Amanda:
And thinking about it in today, you know, like, with our technology and everything, it would have been an extensive amount of time and they would have used modern tools to.
Amanda:
To find it.
Amanda:
So, like, I see how it could have been missed if there were any remains.
Amanda:
The fire did only rage for about 45 minutes, though, but the area was still hot and smoldering until the fire department came at 8:00am, you know, and they watered it down.
Amanda:
So, yes, it only burned for 45 minutes, but it was still hot for hours.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
But also keep in mind, though, that it was December and it was below freezing.
Amanda:
That's true.
Lindsey:
Because the rain was frozen.
Lindsey:
So depending on the temperature, if it was, you know, burning to smoldering and it's that cold out, it's going to cool down a little bit faster than it otherwise would.
Amanda:
Yeah, that's true.
Lindsey:
And if they're sifting through the stuff, it has to be cool enough for them to sift through.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And I mean, it seemed like they only did it for a very short amount of time that day, at least the first day.
Amanda:
So I don't know.
Amanda:
That's.
Amanda:
It's.
Amanda:
It's weird.
Amanda:
But like, I see kind of both sides in this, you know?
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Now, there is a possibility that the family could have absolutely missed the proof that they were searching for, as they didn't have as much knowledge about fires as we do today.
Amanda:
And, like, what to look for.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
There are probably hundreds of theories online, and we just selected a few to discuss because there's just so many.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
e're going to Fast forward to:
Lindsey:
She was 79.
Lindsey:
Now, I know we didn't talk about her a lot in the beginning, but we would love to mention a few things about Sylvia as an adult.
Lindsey:
While she wasn't technically a victim of the fire itself, she was a victim of losing her family members in that fire, Whether it was from kidnapping or from death at that point.
Lindsey:
And so remember, it was the older siblings that had survived.
Lindsey:
She ended up growing up as kind of like an only child.
Lindsey:
She met the love of her life, Grover Paxton, when she was in college.
Lindsey:
She attended the West Virginia Institute of Technology.
Lindsey:
Her memorial described her as a great wife and mother.
Lindsey:
And we specifically wanted to read this part.
Lindsey:
She filled her children's lives with scotch tape and construction paper, warm cookies, books, and unbounded love.
Lindsey:
She encouraged her children to dream big, work hard, and care deeply.
Lindsey:
Good mom.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
She loved to cook and had a green thumb.
Amanda:
Sounds great.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
She had a daughter that she named Jenny and a son, Grover Eric.
Lindsey:
And they are working on ways to keep the story out there, but they don't have any hope for closure.
Lindsey:
Jenny said my mom promised my grandmother that she would never let the story die.
Lindsey:
That's all my me getting.
Lindsey:
You know how I read in a family thing.
Lindsey:
That's what my brother and I are doing now.
Lindsey:
She's also posted on websleuths and has done some interviews in the last few years.
Lindsey:
And she encourages anyone with information to submit a post there.
Lindsey:
Quote, anybody who knew what happened would have been my grandparents age.
Lindsey:
I would think that it's been in the public enough that if children wanted to be found later on in life, they would have reached out.
Lindsey:
We would like for the story to survive just because if nothing else, it's a beautiful love story.
Lindsey:
Oof.
Lindsey:
And we do hope that they get closure, you know, like somehow.
Lindsey:
So sad.
Lindsey:
And again, we want you to remember their names.
Lindsey:
So the children that were lost were Betty, Jenny Lewis, Martha and Maurice.
Amanda:
I'm glad they're still remembered today, even though the billboard's gone, that people still know of them, right?
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
They're short little lives.
Lindsey:
I also would imagine it would be hard to take the billboard down, like, after Jenny died.
Lindsey:
I'm sure that was difficult.
Lindsey:
Like it wasn't an easy decision, but I think it was probably for the best because, like, it had been there for decades.
Lindsey:
And if it was.
Lindsey:
If it was going to yield more, it would have done that.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
I mean, and they updated it for years and years and.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
It just breaks my heart that they never, like, especially the parents, like, they did everything they could and they.
Amanda:
They deserved some sort of closure.
Lindsey:
But I agree.
Amanda:
I really do hope that, like, someone I don't know told their great grandkids a weird story and they somehow are able to, like, link it and get ahold of them.
Amanda:
I don't know.
Amanda:
My hopes.
Lindsey:
No, no, that's.
Lindsey:
That's.
Lindsey:
It's true.
Lindsey:
It's also.
Lindsey:
It is possible that someone has great aunts, great uncles that were adopted that had five of them.
Lindsey:
Wouldn't that be interesting if you had great aunts and uncles that were all adopted in the central east coast area?
Lindsey:
If you would, you know, like, that is possible.
Lindsey:
If they weren't going to murder these tiny children, I would imagine that they would put them someplace.
Amanda:
Yeah, yeah.
Amanda:
They would have had to go somewhere.
Lindsey:
I think it was purposeful that the youngest ones were taken out of the house because the older boys were working with their father.
Lindsey:
So they were kind of more adult, like, if you will.
Lindsey:
Sylvia was tucked into bed with her mom and Marian was laying on the couch.
Lindsey:
So I so thoroughly believe that they went outside to do their chores, like good, awesome little kids that they are.
Lindsey:
And that someone took them then right before the fire.
Lindsey:
Because, I mean, imagine this, right?
Lindsey:
It's late, midnight.
Lindsey:
Ish.
Lindsey:
12:30.
Lindsey:
You're about to do this, and these five kids come bouncing out of the house.
Lindsey:
And they're being good kids.
Lindsey:
They're doing their chores on Christmas.
Lindsey:
n't know, let's say midnight,:
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Kids are excited, happy.
Lindsey:
They're putting the chickens away.
Lindsey:
They're locking up like their mom said.
Lindsey:
And you're about to do this terrible thing.
Lindsey:
Are you gonna force them back in the house?
Lindsey:
Are you gonna look at them when you do this?
Lindsey:
Can you do this?
Lindsey:
It's a lot different setting a fire to a house and not looking at the inhabitants than it is to watch five kids bouncing around outside putting chickens.
Amanda:
Away or through the window even, and.
Lindsey:
Making a decision to do it.
Amanda:
Playing with toys under Christmas lights, you know, or if they did get out before anyone else, that someone grabbed them then.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Or the chaos of the fire.
Lindsey:
There's someplace nearby.
Lindsey:
Somebody scoops them up.
Lindsey:
Then like, I do think that they were taken.
Lindsey:
I don't think they died in the fire.
Amanda:
Really.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
I have a feeling that George would not have put Dirt on a hot crime scene.
Amanda:
Mm.
Amanda:
You know?
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Hot means it's still burning.
Lindsey:
Like, that doesn't make any sense.
Lindsey:
They're sifting through it.
Lindsey:
I don't know.
Lindsey:
This is the guy that like, for decades searched for his babies.
Lindsey:
I don't think he would have been like, okay, let's cover up the grave site prematurely.
Lindsey:
In my head, like the vision, the image I have in my head is a mom elbows deep in ashes, weeping.
Lindsey:
She's looking for her babies and she won't stop digging.
Lindsey:
Yeah, she just won't stop.
Lindsey:
And he does that so that she can be at peace.
Lindsey:
That's just the image I have in my head that he's like, no, we've gotta stop.
Lindsey:
Yeah, they aren't there.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
So what do you think?
Amanda:
Yeah, I was back and forth, especially reading certain things and then seeing the interviews done with firefighters, modern firefighters, and how.
Amanda:
What they walk into, unfortunately, often I was.
Amanda:
Yeah, I think I'm just square in the middle.
Amanda:
I hate saying that all the time, but like, yeah, they make very good points.
Amanda:
Especially because the kids, I mean, they were younger, right.
Amanda:
Like, like you said, the older kids got out, the youngest kid got out.
Amanda:
So their ages were between 5 and 14.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
I don't know how they were dispersed between the two rooms either, whether maybe the 12 and 14 year old tried to get to the littles, but the littles were already gone.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And then they didn't make it because of it.
Amanda:
You know, like, there's so many different things that could have happened that night.
Amanda:
But then.
Amanda:
Yeah, they never found anything.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
Like anything to show.
Amanda:
Not a tooth or a bone.
Amanda:
I would think there would at least be a few bones.
Amanda:
And I know that they found some.
Lindsey:
I don't think that was theirs though.
Amanda:
But scientists were saying no.
Amanda:
Like there would have been burn marks.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
Scorch marks.
Amanda:
Remember, Jenny experimented with animal bones.
Amanda:
Granted, that is a little different, but she tried with various types of animal bones.
Amanda:
I feel like there would have been scorch marks on some bones.
Amanda:
I know even, like, at least from what I understand with cremation, there are pieces left.
Amanda:
Like you're not going to get just the dust when you get.
Amanda:
I know I have all my animal remains.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
It's not just fine sand, you know, there are pieces.
Amanda:
So again, unless they just really didn't know what they were looking for.
Amanda:
But it sounds like they paid attention to everything.
Lindsey:
Yeah, I mean, I think that the question I have that would really make me certain one way or the other, even more so would be whether the livestock had been put away.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
I could not find anything.
Amanda:
Any article that said yes or no.
Amanda:
Yeah, but I mean, why would they focus on that, you know?
Amanda:
No.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Why would they focus on.
Lindsey:
Right, that.
Lindsey:
Right.
Lindsey:
And it's also possible that in the chaos of what was happening, livestock could get out if it was freaking out, you know, like, it wouldn't want to be near spoke or what have you.
Amanda:
Right.
Amanda:
My questions would be directed at the letter that came with the picture.
Amanda:
Like, if that's legitimate or someone being an asshole.
Amanda:
Some say the kid does look similar.
Amanda:
Some are like, mm, don't see it.
Amanda:
You know, it's hit or miss.
Amanda:
It's hard to see on the billboard.
Amanda:
Cause it's a billboard picture.
Amanda:
You know, I would also be very.
Lindsey:
Curious to see whether Jenny and Grover were on 23andMe to find possible relatives, because that would be a way of knowing, like, did they go live a life someplace?
Lindsey:
Because that's the best possible scenario.
Lindsey:
Right.
Lindsey:
That they got taken someplace far, told they couldn't go home.
Lindsey:
Because also think about it, right.
Lindsey:
1945, the news is different.
Lindsey:
The kids are put into a car.
Lindsey:
Your family's dead.
Lindsey:
They don't really know.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Unless, I mean.
Amanda:
And again, I have another jet flying over me.
Lindsey:
But.
Amanda:
Unless it wasn't one of the kids that sent the picture.
Amanda:
Maybe it was someone who felt guilty.
Amanda:
Mm.
Amanda:
And was like, hey, just so you know.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
So I have a few questions.
Amanda:
I would want to know exactly where that came from, the picture letter situation, if it had a letter included, you know, like, if there was a note at all outside of what was written on the back of the photo.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And then I also question, where did those bones go?
Amanda:
Because, like, today we could test those bones and see if there's any, like, overlapping DNA.
Amanda:
It would be weird that they wouldn't have any fire damage to them.
Lindsey:
Yeah.
Amanda:
But still, I'm, like, curious, like, whose bones were those then?
Amanda:
Where did they come from?
Amanda:
Who died?
Amanda:
But, yeah, this is a big debated case still online.
Amanda:
It's still active in a lot of groups, I noticed.
Amanda:
So I am happy that at least their story is still out there and we get to say their names.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
Another heavy one that we're doing this month.
Lindsey:
Yeah, we're doing all heavy things in November.
Amanda:
I know.
Amanda:
It was a hard November.
Amanda:
Well, it was a hard November.
Amanda:
We want to know what you think.
Amanda:
What do you think happened to the kids?
Amanda:
Do you agree with any of these theories?
Amanda:
And then as a quick reminder, this is our last episode of the year.
Amanda:
We won't be back till January, but.
Lindsey:
We'Ll be creeping around.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Lindsey:
So we'll be getting ready for next year.
Lindsey:
We've got a lot of things we want to do, things we want to talk about, things we want to tell you about.
Lindsey:
If you have cases you want to learn more about or things you just want to know about, even tangentially spooky, we can make it spooky.
Lindsey:
Don't worry, we can do it.
Lindsey:
Always share those with us.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And with that, have a great rest of your year.
Lindsey:
Thanks for creeping with us, thanks for listening and as always, a special thank you to our patrons who support us via Patreon.
Amanda:
Please see the link in our show notes to learn more about how you yes, you can begin to haunt the dump guard vortexes or even become a scorching Sasquatch.
Lindsey:
Ooh.
Lindsey:
Also in our show notes you can find the link to our website, more information on our sources, our social media handles and our merch store.
Amanda:
We'd love for you to keep creeping with us, so if you like this episode, please subscribe, rate, review and share the show with your fellow creeps and or ghosts.
212.Christmas True Crime: The Mysterious Disappearance of the Sodder Children
01:09:18
211.Creepy Inspirations Behind Coraline: From Fairy Tales to Urban Legends
00:40:13
210.True Crime Digest 20: Asha Degree; Mercedes Vega; the murder of David Yeager possibly by Danny Rollings; Leola Etta Bryant identified as Samuel Little victim
00:36:14
209.Florence & The Ghost (Sir William Crooke's Experiments (and love??)
00:45:34
208.The Murders of Pauline Reade, John Kilbride, Keith Bennett, Lesley Ann Downey, and Edward Evans (The Moor Murders)
01:05:02
207.Halloween 2024: Spirit Photography
01:08:05
206.Halloween True Crime 3: The Murder of John Altinger by Mark Twitchell
01:08:19
205.The Blair Witch: Inspiration and the Filming of the Movie
01:11:13
204.4th Podiversary: Listener Stories
01:09:56
203.Urban Legends: Organ Harvesting
00:38:23
202.Cryptids: The Owlman of Mawnan Wood
00:42:01
201.Bloody Benders: A Family of Serial Killers
00:53:17
200.The Grinning Man: Indrid Cold (Mothman's side kick?), Urban Legend, or Something Else?
01:18:16
199.Spooky Travel: The Driskill Hotel, Austin, TX
00:48:12
198.Friggin' Worms
00:57:53
197.The Sacred Mushrooms of Sierra Mazateca
00:42:38
196.Jakub & Ondrej
01:38:07
195.Haunted Dolls 4
00:34:00
194.Traditionally Creepy
00:52:13
193.Béla Lugosi's Mirror
00:53:37
192.Spooky Travel: The Millennium Biltmore Hotel - Los Angeles
145.True Crime Digest 16: Dr. John Forsyth; Daniel Robinson; Shopping Cart Killer; West Memphis 3; Lori Vallow/ Chad Daybell Cases; Villisca Axe Murder House
01:08:32
144.Carl Tanzler's Obsession: Elena de Hoyos
00:57:11
143.Haunted Houses: Sales, Stories, and The Ghostbusters Ruling
111.The Avril Lavigne Conspiracy (Halloween Shorts)
00:28:18
110.Strange Ways to Die: Sinkholes (Halloween Shorts)
00:18:18
109.The Deadly Pepsi Contest (Halloween Shorts)
00:32:20
108.Untucked Tootsies (Halloween Shorts)
00:25:39
107.A Couple of Curses (Halloween Shortie)
00:21:24
106.Haunted Hotels: Jerome, AZ
00:51:54
105.2nd Podiversary Episode: Listener Stories
01:05:44
104.Vallow & Daybell Update September 2022
01:23:46
103.Hocus Pocus
01:11:17
102.The Murders of Barbara Raposa, Karen Marsden, & Doreen Levesque (Fall River Cult Killings): Bridgewater Triangle & Satanic Panic III
01:32:58
101.More Haunted Dolls
00:32:32
100.Mothman: Origins
01:05:24
99.Cryptids: Sheepsquatch & The Ozark Howler
00:54:37
98.Stranger Things: Inspiration & History
01:08:14
97.Vallow & Daybell Update August 2022
00:54:19
96.True Crime Digest 14: Daniel Robinson, Jelani Day, West Memphis 3, Hugo Osorio Chavez, Molly Bish, Andrés Mendoza
00:55:43
95.Mayan Legends
00:52:08
94.The Power [St]Ranger Curse: Murder, Fraud, Violence, and Death
01:03:58
93.Lake Lanier
01:09:17
92.The Odd & Outrageous Origins of Children's Stories
00:56:06
91.Deltona Massacre: The murders of Erin Bellanger; Michelle Nathan; Roberto Gonzalez; Anthony Vega; Francisco Ayo-Roman; and Jonathan Gleason
00:57:19
90.Creepy Scientific Discoveries: Sharkcanos, Sinkholes, and Zombies
01:03:21
89.True Crime Digest 13: Daniel Robinson; Joseph Bolduc; Taryn Summers; Jelani Day; Daniel Brophy; Crystal Turner and Kylen Shulte; Michelle Guse, Lori Farmer, and Denise Milner (the Girl Scout Murders); Beth Redmond, Sonya Champ, Stephanie Harrison, and Tonita smith (victims of the Shopping Cart Killer)
00:42:41
88.Multiverse Travel: Vasile Gorgos, Pedro Ramirez & Carol Chase Elheney
01:00:14
87.Spooky Places: Thompson Park, Bodie, & The Island of Dolls
00:54:19
86.Vallow & Daybell Update May 2022
00:40:18
85.Satanic Panic Injustice: The Murders of Steven Branch, Christopher Byers & Michael Moore and the West Memphis Three (Jason Baldwin, Jessie Misskelley, & Damien Echols)
01:05:05
84.Ourang Medan
01:01:37
83.Satanic Panic 101
01:14:16
82.Bridgewater Triangle II: Hockomock Swamp, UFOS, Big Foot & Other Cryptids
00:44:56
81.Vallow & Daybell Update April 2022
00:12:46
80.True Crime Digest 12: Jubi Monsif, Daniel Robinson, Naomi Irion, Dyatlov Pass & Apple Airtags
00:50:02
79.April Fools: Killer Clowns & Pranks
00:58:23
78.Bridge Water Triangle I: History, Haunts & the Horrifying Taunton State Hospital
00:48:45
77.Julie Popovich
01:02:43
76.Ghostly Vengence
00:47:16
75.True Crime Digest 11
00:45:31
74.Shopping Cart Killer: The Murders of Sonya Champ, Tonita Smith, Stephanie Harrison, Cheyenne Brown, & Beth Redmon
00:37:44
73.Blobs
00:49:41
72.The Disappearance of Daniel Robinson
00:39:23
71.Vallow & Daybell Update February 2022
00:42:08
70.True Crime Digest 10
00:22:45
69.The Hotel Del Coronado Mystery
00:52:37
68.The Pine Barrens & The Jersey Devil
00:52:45
67.Vallow & Daybell Update January 2022
01:06:31
66.Doppelgängers
00:57:04
65.Christmas Monsters 2
00:29:22
64.True Crime Digest 9
00:36:08
63.Black Friday
00:56:50
62.Bunny Man
00:38:59
61.Vallow & Daybell Updates
01:09:51
60.True Crime Digest 8
01:23:28
59.Halloween True Crime 2
00:52:31
58.More Ghosts
01:03:47
57.Scream: The True Stories
01:02:01
56.Urban Legends: Loveland Frogman, Chullachaqui, Ningen, and the Crying Boy
00:53:42
55.1st Podiversary: Spooky Listener Stories
00:57:56
54.Belanglo Forest
00:55:39
53.The Denver Airport Conspiracies
00:59:13
52.Texas Killing Fields: 90's Victims & Killers
01:03:39
51.True Crime Digest 7
01:11:21
50.Mermaids
00:54:52
48.Dybbuk Box: Debunked
00:44:00
47.Friday the 13th
00:58:18
46.True Crime Digest 6
01:00:06
45.Texas Killing Fields: 80's Victims & Killers
00:58:02
44.Urban Legends: The Goatman of Pope Lick Creek, The Ship of Death, The Miniwashitu, and The Walking Man
00:33:53
43.Lori Vallow: Conspiracy Charges for Charles Vallow's Murder
00:57:17
42.Girl Scout Murders
01:03:31
41.True Crime Digest 5
00:52:57
40.Cursed: People
01:15:37
39.Texas Killing Fields: 70's Victims & Killers
00:40:28
38.Creepy Kids
00:46:20
37.True Crime Digest 4
00:16:56
36.Murder Charges Against Lori Vallow Daybell & Chad Daybell
01:05:46
35.The Woods
01:08:03
34.Murderous Marys
01:01:10
33.Brian Shaffer
01:17:57
32.True Crime Digest 3: Derek Chauvin, Linda Stoltzfoos, Lori Vallow Daybell, & Taryn Summers
00:57:30
31.Kendrick Johnson
01:20:20
30.Bloody Mary
01:05:50
29.Samuel Little
00:44:52
28.An Abundance of Skeletons
00:58:51
27.True Crime Digest 2: Kendrick Johnson, Lori Vallow Daybell, & Kay Day
01:11:11
bonusTrue Crêpes: Tasty Terror
00:14:53
26.Sea Monsters
01:03:24
25.Georgia Guidestones
01:03:47
24.Texas Killing Fields: Unsolved
00:44:17
23.True Crime Digest
01:01:53
22.Crime Fighting Critters
00:38:51
21.Haunted Dolls
00:56:35
20.Sinister Love: Vallow & Daybell
01:35:09
19.Hotels That Kill: Cecil Hotel, H.H. Holmes' Castle, & Hotel San Carlos
