Join us as we discuss the disappearance of Sandra Lyn Johnsen. We’ll discuss Sandra, the days leading up to her disappearance, the investigation, and possible sightings of Sandra.

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• Joel Curtis Thomazin – The Charley Project
• Missing in Yosemite National Park: Where is Peter Jackson?
• Search Continues For Woman Missing 2 Weeks While 'Quarantining' In Sierra - CBS San Francisco
• Missing Hiker Alert 7/5 Sierra NF (Unresolved) - High Sierra Topix
• The Sandra Johnsen Hughes disappearance in Sierra National Forest — StrangeOutdoors.com
• Madera County Sheriff's Office's Post
• The Sandra Johnsen Hughes disappearance in Sierra National Forest — StrangeOutdoors.com
• Access to this page has been denied
• Sandra Johnsen Hughes - Missing From Sierra National Forest – Vanished Case File
• Sandra Johnsen Hughes - Missing From Sierra National Forest – Vanished Case File
• Still No Sign of Missing Camper, Search Enters Second Week | Sierra News Online
• 'She would never leave her campsite a mess': Family of missing woman speaks out
• Sandra Hughes: Mystery of missing hiker and the strange 'sightings' after her disappearance
• Sandra Lyn Johnsen Hughes | State of California - Department of Justice - Office of the Attorney General
• Sheriff investigates reported ghost-like sighting in California mountain range
• Special Report: The latest on the search for a woman who went missing 3 years ago
• Missing People in Yosemite - Yosemite National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
• Sandra Johnsen Hughes — still missing after two years - Mariposa Gazette
• Madera County Sheriff's Office FB
• 'She would never leave her campsite a mess': Family of missing woman speaks out
• 'She would never leave her campsite a mess': Family of missing woman speaks out
• Search continues for missing California woman last seen 3 years ago
• Sandra Lyn Johnsen Hughes – The Charley Project

So today we are going to talk about the disappearance of Sandra Lynn Johnson Hughes. We're going to talk about some strange details surrounding her disappearance and a sighting that truly gave us the chills. Hi.

Welcome to True Creeps, where the stories

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Hello, everyone.

Today we are going to talk about the disappearance of Sandra Lynn Johnson Hughes. This case has a ton of strange details, and there's a sighting that might have happened later that gave me the absolute chills.

Yes. Like, that's all I have to say is yes.

Yeah, I saw actually an article about the sighting first before I saw this case, and I was like, oh, no. Also, I have an Oliver story that's kind of similar to this.

Sort of.

Yeah, not quite, but sort of.

And she was 53 when she disappeared, very close to turning 54. According to her family, she moved around a lot. Some would even call her nomadic. Like, she liked to explore and be in different places.

I could not find a specific date, but just that it was during pandemic. While in California, she planned a solo camping trip. At the time of her trip, her hair was dyed blue.

Now, this is an important detail that we're going to talk about later during that possible sighting that occurred. So just have that in the back of your head.

Blue hair.

Now, Sandy had been trained to be a park ranger in college, and. And she was very experienced when it came to the Outdoors.

So none of her family was too worried when she mentioned that she was going to go on a solo camping trip. She had been a big outdoors person and knew her way around, so it didn't seem like it was out of the ordinary.

Also, because it was during COVID solo camping was a way to quarantine, maintain safety and still have something fun to do.

I love the confidence of people who can travel alone and who can genuinely spend time by themselves in that way. One of my best vacations was Ben and I were in the same city, but he had other things he was doing with friends that were pre planned.

I knew about it. So I spent the majority of the trip by myself and I just beboped around and it was amazing and lovely.

But I do not think that I could do it in the woods. I think a solo camping trip sounds very scary to me and I was a girl scout for many years. But I'm also a scaredy cat.

So I have so much respect for people who can do solo camping because I'm like that. That takes such self confidence and I find that to be so impressive.

Agreed. We went on a camping trip.

I think I brought it up last year or year before maybe and we were supposed to go for a couple days and we made it to one day because I was like, can we just go home and live in our house now? I don't get it. But props to those that do.

Anyways, so Sandy overall was known to be a very independent person and she was very comfortable being alone. She had been married twice in her life and, and had no kids. But she was always known as Aunt Sandy, which I loved. Thought that was cute.

And just to note she was physically and mentally fit.

And that is always so important to say when we're talking about people who have disappeared. Because I think that one of the first things that people go to is that there was some level of self harm associated with their disappearance.

So we say that because it's important to have that in the context of it. Because I think law enforcement is like in the same way that they're like young girls just ran away. And I'm like Where did a 10 year old go?

Where do you think a 10 year old girl went? You know.

Yeah.

In the same vein of that is it seems like an easy way to not have to do actual investigative work.

And I'm.

I'm not saying that that was or was not done here. I'm just.

That's why we bring it up at the beginning of any disappearance episode is because it's such a shortcut that is often taken by law enforcement.

Agreed.

She disappeared during that solo camping trip we mentioned a moment ago. And we looked, but couldn't find any specific dates for the trip, only that she may have planned to hike towards Yosemite.

So we weren't sure of what her itinerary was or, you know, every place she was planning to stop.

And.

And I thought that was kind of strange, too, when we looked, because I would think that there would be a. I am planning to go from Thursday to Monday or, you know, like a specific time frame, but it seems like it might have been a loose trip maybe, and that's why there's not specific dates. Yeah, but I thought that that was kind of strange that that's nowhere that I could find.

Yeah, I actually.

I don't find this too surprising because I think that if you're confident enough to be solo camping, you likely have a loose plan of what you're doing.

That definitely could be it, I think. I'm. I'm a planner and, like, everything is very specific, but not everyone is like that.

Yeah, but you're also talking about planning trips in populated areas where you need to book a hotel. If you want to eat at a good restaurant on the weekend, you might need to make a reservation.

If you have friends who have allergies, you might want to look up menus and things like that. When you're doing a trip like that, it makes a lot more sense because you also have to arrange for travel to and from.

So it just ends up being structured a bit differently.

Some people who go camping might have this stuff written down for whatever reason, and depending on the type of planner you are, you may or may not have it. So she was camping in the Sierra National Forest near Johnson Meadows, which is south of Yosemite National Park.

On July 5, her campsite was observed by officials. We believe it was originally found by hikers or campers perhaps a few days before.

But the names and additional information for who exactly found it were not shared, which I feel like is pretty standard when you're talking about people who have found perhaps evidence or something concerning. You hear some loose facts about who they were and why they were there so that they don't seem suspicious.

But otherwise, you typically don't hear their exact names and times. And things like that, Unless they're coming forward and speaking with the news that or. Yeah.

Or if it makes it to some sort of trial.

So one of the interesting things about the research about this is that we've got information about Sandra being missing that's kind of like real time. Ish. And then we have people reporting things that they've seen, but it's days later.

So, for example, it seems as though there were hikers or campers who, while in the area, came across her campsite and they found her items kind of just strewn about, if you will. And one of the things that they found was a folder containing important documents.

So once they were able, they reached out to officials to have them come look at it.

But we're not sure whether that was the same day or it was days later because we don't know what kind of cell service they had or the exact space of where they were and how much communication they could get out to someone. And then we don't know the amount of time that elapsed between the reporting of it and the officials going out.

But what we do know is that once the officials did come out, they also looked around and went, this is bizarre. Something strange is going on with this.

Yeah.

The dates that hikers or whoever may have found her campsite first vary based off of which source you're looking at, But I do believe it was maybe a couple days before the authorities finally got there.

So Sandra's campsite was found in Johnson Meadows, which is an area between Besor and Minaret Road. As we mentioned a moment ago, items were strewn about, but they weren't just kind of strewn about.

It was like things were emptied out in a way that seemed more than, oh, raccoons got into things. But in a way that was just kind of like nothing was in its container, which seems very strange.

It was very odd.

Yeah. And items including her documents and personal information were found.

She kept a binder with her that had her emergency contact information, which if you're going camping or traveling in a solo way, I think anywhere, having like a little like, what to do if I go missing makes a lot of sense.

Right. She was like responsible and pre thought out anything that could happen, it seems. Yeah. Again, like a good head on her shoulders. Yeah.

And it's in that vein, a person who's like that, their campsite being a wreck is pretty weird.

It is.

And her family said that was a big red flag for them. Ashley Mackus, Sandy's niece, said that she would never leave her campsite a mess quote, even a piece of litter on the ground would bother her.

The Just an interesting fact, like, grew up a girl Scout, did the whole daisies to cadets situation. But now I'm debating whether it's cadets, seniors, seniors, cadets. I'm gonna lose my girl Scout card anyway.

Wow, you're lying.

I know. I feel like it right now, but I did the whole deal. And one of the really big parts of that is that you always leave a place better than you found it.

And a lot of campers have that same mentality that a place should not be worse off for you having existed there. And so this is bizarre for a person who camps for them to leave such a mess.

Right.

So it's not very clear, but we believe that this is when officials contacted her family, was after seeing the mess of her campsite.

And when they reached out to her family, that's when they told officials the last time they spoke with her was on June 26, and that's the date that the missing persons report was filed because it was the date of last contact. So they kind of like retroactively dated it, saying it's in July now.

But we know that she has not been heard from since this date, which I think makes sense because it helps kind of get the timeline of how are you going to investigate if people have seen her? How do we fit this into the timeline? Agreed.

So it was also easy to find out who the campsite belonged to and who to contact, because she kept those documents just in case, like that binder we mentioned a moment ago.

Also, Ashley, her niece, mentioned that her aunt always called or texted when she came into cell phone range, which, again, makes a lot of sense if you're a person who camps because you know that your loved ones are going to be like, you are out in the woods alone. I. I am concerned. Let me know you're okay.

Exactly. At least just like a quick text, hey, today I'm doing this or something to check in. Now, that same day later on July 5, Sandy's vehicle was located.

Oddly, this is another fact that is changed between sources. However, I say July 5th because there's a note that has that date on her car, and we'll talk about that in a minute.

So her car was a silver Saab, and it was found in Chiquito Creek, which was a few miles north of where her campsite was found. Investigators believe that it hit a tree while traveling at a pretty low speed, like, I want to say under 20. Then it rolled into a ravine.

Interestingly, some Videos and sources that we saw mentioned that there were no witnesses. However, some sources that came out, like, a year or two later claimed that there were witnesses to this.

So I thought that was interesting that, like, while she's missing, at the beginning it said something, and then later, when they revisit it with authorities, it's a different story.

I always find it particularly concerning when it's really hard to pin down when the exact date of a person having gone missing is because there's kind of sightings. Ish, you know?

Right, right. And also, if someone witnessed this car crash versus if no one witnessed it, I feel like that's just, like, a big detail. I don't know.

So in one news story, it said that a passerby asked if she was okay before walking off. But it doesn't specifically say if it was directly after the car crash or if, like, they ran into her after the fact.

So three years later, there was another news article published with some additional details saying that the car crash happened on July 4th or that weekend and that people did witness it. They offered to help, but she declined. And oddly enough, she hung around her vehicle for a while.

The article says that this information came from Sheriff Tyson Pogue and that she was later seen by witnesses walking into the woods. So I just thought that that was interesting, that it was a couple years later that, like, they describe it more.

That's very bizarre.

Now, instead of towing the car, I thought this was actually kind of smart. Authorities left a note on it, hoping that she may return to it. And it was like a nice. I don't know. I just.

I guess I don't see authorities usually leaving, like, a kindness when there's a car in a weird spot. Right. But what it said was to call the Madera County Sheriff's Office if you are Sandra. And then a little note, like, under the other area.

It says your family is worried about you. But it's like one of those classic, you know, like, if you park in the wrong spot or whatever. It was like, a red warning note.

And then, yeah, they just, like, left the car there, hoping that she'd return to it. Like, that's her shelter that has some of her items in it. Yeah.

Now, it's unknown if maybe she had an injury from the accident and maybe was, like, disoriented. But from everything we saw, it wasn't going very quick.

Like, the car was moving at a slow Speed, ran into a tree and then just kind of rolled into a ravine. Like, there was no big car crash by any means. But also like people can get injured with minor car crashes. Like they can fling their head weird.

There's a number of things that could have happened.

Agreed. There could have been a health related incident that is the catalyst for why the car was traveling at a low speed and, and ultimately hit a tree.

Right. Right. Now, officials did ask the public for help to locate Sandy.

They asked if anyone were to see her in the Sierra National Forest, that they should, quote, do whatever they can to stay with her, talk to her and make contact with law enforcement. Also to tell her that her niece is concerned about her well being. So again, in like this area of forest, there's not always going to be cell service.

So it's important, like, if you did see her, that you somehow stick with her and somehow be able to contact authorities. It wasn't going to just be like, are you okay? Cool.

Like, the other people not knowing, obviously they didn't know something was wrong, but they did reach out to anyone camping in the area to hopefully help. The police also mentioned that they didn't believe that she was trying to evade them by any means.

And they do believe that she may be in a disassociative state and unable to realize that she did need help.

So again, like, yeah, if there was some sort of medical issue that occurred, she may not have known or maybe she was disoriented that she couldn't have asked for help.

It's quite interesting for them to describe it as a dissociative state because when we hear dissociative, it's often in the context of dissociative identity disorder. But you can also enter what is called a fugue state, which is where you travel.

Like you literally get in your car, you walk, you travel someplace else, and you're kind of like not mentally present. So it's very interesting that they use that phrase not to say that they used it correctly because people use words wrong all the time.

But I do think that's an interesting phrasing of it. So, so search teams did look in the area for weeks, but they weren't able to find Sandy.

There were a lot of people searching for her, including deputies, volunteers from the Madera County Sheriff's Office, the Kern County Sheriff, Tulare County Sheriff, Fresno County Sheriff, and then the California Office of Emergency Services, plus the California Air National Guard. They included foot searches, helicopter searches, and even had search dogs in their trainers.

So it Seems like there was a robust law enforcement and missing person presence, but they just weren't able to find her. On July 6th, Sandy's sleeping bag was found about two and a half miles from the crash site, and it was found inside Yosemite National Park.

Law enforcement knew it was Sandy's because they had matched it to a recent purchase she had made from REI of the sleeping bag, which I feel like is pretty reasonable.

There's so many different sleeping bags out there, and to have a missing person in the area match the exact type of sleeping bag that is found, that would be a very bizarre coincidence if there was more than one.

Yeah, agreed.

Law enforcement asked the public to be on the lookout in Yosemite, and her relatives were working hard and posted flyers in the area. This did lead to reports, but ultimately there were no other leads.

So there was a hiker who had been in Yosemite national park who saw a missing person flyer for Sandy, and they contacted authorities to let them know that they had actually seen her on July 4th. So they didn't call on July 4th, but that's when they had seen her.

I feel like that's one of those days of the year where you would know exactly, like, what you were doing. Right. Because July 4th, there's fireworks and stuff. So it's like a memorable day.

If you're a person who goes hiking really frequently, that day in particular would probably stand out.

More people are off. So, like, there's more people out there, too.

Yeah. I would be curious as to how busy the park was then.

While it likely was a little bit more busy, I would also imagine that because this was during COVID people were staying far away from one another.

So you may see someone in the woods that's, you know, 200ft from you, but you're not going to go near them because no one wants to be near one another at that point of time. And I do wonder if that played into Sandy not being found because people saw someone in the woods.

They stayed far away because of COVID and they didn't see what state she was in. That could be in addition to her not accepting help.

Right.

So the hiker noted that when he saw Sandy, she was barefoot and had a bruise on her face. He offered to help her, but she declined any assistance and kept walking.

I would imagine that if you encountered a person in the woods, barefoot, appearing to be injured, who you try to help, but you're not going to force it upon them, because that's not okay either.

Right.

I would imagine that face would stick out to you. So I'm sure when they saw that missing person's flyer, they were like, oh my gosh, okay, let me help.

Because what a strange, powerless feeling to know that it appears that someone needs help and for them to refuse you.

Yeah.

So towards the end of July, search efforts were reduced. Then in early August, two hunters said that they saw a woman leaning on a tree along Road 5.

So one near Besore road, and again, that's right near where Sandy's car was found.

The two men said that she matched the description of the missing woman, but she was much thinner than she appeared on the flyers, which would make sense because she had been out in the woods for about a month at that point. They also said that she didn't appear to be in distress and she didn't attempt to make contact with them.

She was wearing overalls and a floral shirt and was drinking water. This may be the last sighting of Sandy.

Yeah. So there was just a lot of changes. And I was reading one article that said, like, between the fire and, you know, the super cold winter, it.

There's a number of things that could have changed due to it, including like trees falling and covering up evidence or burning bushes away to uncover evidence. Oh, so like it just could have changed in a number of different ways.

Yes.

So, like, I was looking through my photos of our trip and I was like, oh my gosh. We were staying in this area a year after.

And the reason why it caught my attention so much is because as we were driving, I actually took a couple pictures of the damage that the fire did to this forest. There's an area where it's burned and like, there's damage still.

And then the area that was untouched and like, we drove through that to see the difference where we were staying was a friend's, like, family's cabin and they were so worried, I guess during this fire that if it would have hopped over one little area, their cabin and everything that they'd had for years would have also been destroyed.

So it was just interesting to like go back and be like, oh my gosh, like the forest was really sad because it was so pretty and you're like seeing the difference, I don't know, just being there.

Like you see unfortunate, horrible fires often, but just like witnessing it and being like all those poor animals and the people that live there and just the damage that a fire can do. So another thing that just like gave me the chills even more is this next part I'm going to talk about.

I was there at the same time that this happened. So like I didn't experience this. I did not meet these people we're going to talk about, but I was in the area which I thought was just insane.

So this is the part that I saw first before, before knowing the story of what happened to Sandy. So this next story I'm going to talk about is what actually I saw first before reading into Sandy's disappearance.

And according to Victoria, quote, he was just in our car and he was pointing out to a certain spot in the meadow. Caden then told his parents that there's a woman lying face down with her legs straight up in the air in the meadow.

So he also mentioned that the woman could not speak or move and needed help. In an interview, Victoria said, quote, he goes, yeah, there's a lady over in the meadow in a black shirt and I got goosebumps.

He said she needs help and, and she's dead and she's laying face down with her legs up and she can't talk to me, but she's over there, we need to go help her. Then he kept saying, trust me mom.

And just the thought of what this child is describing is horrifying because if her face is down and her legs are up like she's upside down, I guess, or like it just sounds horrific. But he also, according to Victoria, described the woman as wearing a black shirt, dark jeans and that she had blue hair.

And that's just kind of an odd thing for a three year old to make up because three year olds say wild things. They're insane. But to describe something so specific and something so out of the ordinary, to me that stands out.

Yes. Like, it is one thing for a child to tell a story and to have a lot of details, which so many children do. Love that.

But for so many of them to be such a match is very chilling.

It is, yeah.

And so the parents, Jake and Victoria, then went and checked the area thinking that, oh my gosh, what if my kid just saw like a dead body or something? Right. They found nothing. They saw no one. But it did freak them out a lot. So they decided to end their trip early and go home fair.

So when they got home, Victoria was still kind of rattled. So she posted about the situation on social media and she received responses about a missing woman in the area. The woman was Sandy.

So Kaden, the three year old, was able to identify Sandy as the woman in 3 out of 4 photos of Sandy that was shown to him. He was like, that's her. That's who I saw. Goodness, that stresses me out.

Yeah, it stresses me out. It's also unexplainable.

It is. Like, how would a three year old know, like, especially if that happened a year after.

So when he was 2, she disappeared, which if they did live anywhere near that area, I didn't see exactly where they lived, but that they went up to this peak. But he wouldn't remember that. Like he wouldn't remember seeing pictures of her at 2 at least. Like the average child wouldn't.

No, no. And I feel like even if they could remember her, they probably wouldn't remember the specific features and parts of her clothing that they named.

Right.

Because at that point I'm not going to act like I am a child developmental psychologist, scientist, person, but for a kid to remember that many details about someone who he would have seen maybe once or twice on the news or something like that in passing, I feel like is unbelievable.

It is, yeah.

And because of her post, authorities reached out to Victoria on Facebook and asked if they could bring them up there to help point out where they were when Caden spotted the woman. So the following day, Caden and his dad actually went with two sheriff deputies, but unfortunately no one found anything.

Nothing was found, but they did search the area.

Caden's family thinks that he may have spotted her ghost and hopes that Caden in some way helped, perhaps giving some more details of where she may be or what might have happened to her.

I mean, I would say it does sound that way and that's just so hard because there's still so many unanswered questions here.

Well, and it's kind of sad though, you know, like if it's her ghost that means she is dead, where like there is still some hope that perhaps she left or, you know, like something happened where she was able to make it out.

We've also talked about situations in other episodes where people have seen what appears to be a ghost when that person is very much alive.

That's true, I guess. Yeah.

You never know.

Such a chilling event.

Oh yes. Especially like for a three year old

on a family little gathering outside and you're like, wait, what are you saying? Yeah.

And I feel like one of my favorite types of tiktoks is parents telling people terrifying things that their children have told them. Oh yeah, Amanda's going to tell us one at the end of the episode.

But I think that that's just such an interesting situation because there's no vested interest in lying.

Right.

Like they're not gonna get money or a book deal or fame. They're a child. But yeah.

Well, and three is the perfect age for it because they can express more, they can speak more and like make more sense than they did before. But also they're so young and innocent that they're unlikely to make up crazy things like that.

Like they're gonna make up some weird shit, but nothing like this. At least my kid never did.

You just blocked it out.

It just blocked it out. Yeah. I did actually keep.

When Ollie was little, I kept a log of either like silly things or like strange things that he said just so later I could like remember him better.

Yeah. I'm such a big believer in journaling as a way of remembering your life and staying present.

Because everything moves so fast that it's really hard to remember all the good stuff if you don't keep track of it. Because your brain's inclined to think of the horrors, which there are plenty. But it's not always as easy to hold on to all the good stuff.

But anywho.

Yeah.

Additionally, the article said that the Madera county search and rescue teams were planning to conduct multiple search missions throughout the summer to revisit areas where evidence was located. Unfortunately, as of today, and it's mid February, as we're recording, Sandy is still missing. And there are a lot of questions about this case.

Like, what was going on with her campsite? Why was everything all thrown around? Why wouldn't she accept help from anyone? What happened with her car?

How did she survive without her gear between the time of her disappearance and the last time someone saw her? And how did her sleeping bag get to Yosemite? Because an important note, although beautiful, this area is remote.

There's.

There's dense forest, limited cell service, hazardous areas like cliffs and rivers and dramatic temperature changes. And it's just a hard place to be living outdoors if you're not a person who, full of time lives outdoors.

That or like they're not equipped anymore. Because I feel like she's unstoppable if equipped. But, like, even the best survivor is going to struggle, at least in an area like this.

There is a movie that just came out called Send Help that is about a person who was. Was trying to get on the show Survivor. So she learns all these survival skills and then gets trapped on an island. It has Rachel McAdams and Dylan O'.

Brien. It is so fucking good. But it's so interesting to watch somebody who could be stuck in the wilderness with nothing be able to survive.

Yeah. All I think of is our time in Mexico when all of us got addicted to watching naked and afraid.

The only thing in English, and I'm like, those people can survive, but also car crash, her acting strange.

There's a lot of factors that make this even harder.

Yeah. A lot of interesting things that happened where I'm like, I don't think she was okay.

He had planned to take a hike, go fishing, and then come home. He was last seen on September 6th and was supposed to come home the 9th, but he did not.

Yeah. And it's such a remote area that it definitely can happen. And I did not see any, like, relatable things between these three people.

Not saying that it can't be related, but I just didn't see anything that was like, in your face. This could have the same. Similar story or ending or any of that. But it is interesting that, like, the same area has experienced.

Experienced this a couple times. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think about this case?

I think it's a bit of a puzzle. I find a lot of this very bizarre. Like, why was her campsite overturned? It almost sounds like. It sounds like Somebody was looking for something.

And to me that suggests that there may have been foul play. And we have this three year old boy who saw her years later in a way that would suggest she was very much none alive.

And the people who she interacted with, the impression that I get from all of these interactions is that she appeared to be relatively unwell for a person who was in the woods and she refused help. But refusing help can look really different. Right. It can look like, oh, no thank you, I'm all right. It can look like someone just shaking their head.

A non verbal communication. It could look like someone just walking off in response to what you're saying.

So it could be that the people who reported seeing her, perhaps they did see her in the same way that Kaden saw her. If you're getting what I'm saying.

Oh, that it may not have actually been her. Ugh, that gives me even bigger chills. Yeah.

And the reason why I say that is because it's such a distinct pattern of people being like, do you need help? And I do think that the average person, if they encountered a person who seemed fully well, would have told the story differently. Right.

Like oh, I asked if she needed any help but she was like very adamant that she was fine and that like, you know, she's just communing with nature. So she has her shoes off and she fell. But she's good. Right? Like that is such a different conversation.

And I could see someone quite reasonably saying, oh my gosh, do you need help? And, and then, you know, they, they turn for a moment, the person's gone and they take that as a refusal as opposed to she just disappeared.

That's true.

Because also, how do you tell, how do you say that?

I'm not trying to do like wild conjecture, but I do find that interesting the fact that we're not hearing people quoting her or talking about her mannerisms or anything like that. It's just that she refused help. And that just all sounds very strange to me. Yeah.

And I found it very strange that the way this was covered and how some details changed depending on when you found the article. Like the articles that were real time were slightly different.

And I also found myself in like a hikers forum kind of that was talking about her disappearance and they were quoting various articles and like new information as it came up. But it was just so feel like there's a lack of description for a lot of it even in like news articles and things that came out.

And the most description that we got was years later when they interviewed one of the sheriffs. So I understand that that area is not very populated. It's not a super busy area. But I would still expect at least more detail, I guess. Yeah.

With the idea of that we're in. In Covid times in. In this situation, I think that people were likely further away from her when speaking to her.

Yeah.

And I would imagine that if you saw somebody who didn't have shoes on, had a bruise on their face, likely their clothing is not holding up well because they've been in the woods, you might make some assumptions about how clean they are and therefore how safe. Because remember, we were all like fucking like spraying down and desanitizing our groceries before we came into the house.

So a person who appeared disheveled or dirty, people probably would have really kept their distance.

Right. And I don't think anyone was acting their best self during that time.

Yeah.

So, like, I wouldn't hold it against them if they didn't like sound the alert because they just. It was a weird fucking time.

Yeah.

Now, Caden's sighting is the thing that really like, got my attention. Not to say that a missing person wouldn't, but I saw that first and I was like, wait, hold on.

And like you said, we see tiktoks all the time of like, wild things that kids say. Or we've talked about it in one of our listener episodes where someone was seeing various spirits perhaps in their house.

So it's just crazy to think, like, what kids might know or see that we don't.

Yeah.

And I know I mentioned earlier that I had an Ollie story, but he was probably about that age. I have to look at our pictures to see exactly how old, but 3ish is what I remember. But we did rent a cabin in a whole different place.

This wasn't in California, but we rented a cabin with some friends. And we were going on a walk one evening. So it was like the sun was still up, but it was evening time.

And during the walk, Ollie was on one of our friend's shoulders and he's looking around. You know, he's super tall at that point. And we're walking around kind of the foresty area.

It was like where a neighborhood kind of met the forest area, if I remember right. And there was like a. A drainage ditch, maybe the best way I can describe it, where the forest met the neighborhood.

And we're walking by that and Ollie, like looks at all of us and he was like, there's a lot of blood over there. And I'm like, oh, fuck. Like, is there, like, don't like that or something, you know?

Like, that's the first thing my mind went to, is, like, is there a dead deer or something horrific? Someone hit something. And it's just over there. That's where my mind went at first. So of course, I'm, like, looking around.

Our friends are kind of looking around, like, where buddy. And he's pointing, and there's nothing. There's nothing in the forest. No blood. No.

And again, like, kind of like a drainage area, if I remember correctly. So you would think, like, it would all puddle or something there. Nothing, Just green.

And so when I got back to the rental, I looked up to see if, like, anything strange in that area had happened. I couldn't find anything. But I did go back, and I'm like, oh, gosh, what happened on that road or in this specific place? I couldn't find anything.

All of that to say, though. I know exactly how weird kids are. And the stuff that they say can be absolutely terrifying.

Especially when you're on a trip and it's supposed to be a fun thing and you're like, what do you mean? What do you mean you're seeing that?

Wish you didn't. Wish you weren't.

And he said it with such confidence. And it's not something that he would say, like, that was out of the ordinary for him. Especially, like, my kid, he'd be like, oh, look, there's a.

There's an animal. Or he'd be laughing at a. An animal or a squirrel or something. Something that we don't see very often where I am.

I know you have squirrels in your back. We don't see squirrels. So he thought they were hilarious. He thought pine cones were funny. He thought, like, that's so cute.

Little Ollie said adorable things like that. But in no way could I think that he would just randomly talk about blood. Like, that's just not a normal thing he. That would come out of his mouth.

Yeah, that's very, very fair. And I. I just. I can imagine the look on your face, like, yeah.

And the funny thing is, is, like, right before that happened, I actually snapped a picture of him on our friend's shoulders because it was just so cute, like, we were having such a good time. And that's on my wall when you walk into the house, him on his shoulders, and it's just like a cute picture.

And so that's what I think of, though, when I look at that picture is like, oh, that's the time Ollie said weird shit while we were walking around the woods.

That's the blood sighting.

Yeah. So kids are weird. I wholeheartedly believe Kayden saw something strange that day.

I do too, unfortunately.

But I hope something is found.

Like to at least give her family closure at some point and that there are still some searches or like behind the scenes things happening to where maybe they'll find more information eventually. Yeah. Now, if you do have a case that you'd like us to cover, please reach out. We've gotten some in the past and we want to help if we can.

And then just to kind of pivot to something a little less grim, we are looking at scheduling our first Patreon night of the year.

It'll likely be in March or April, so all patrons, please keep an eye out in your inbox and on our page because we'll announce it as soon as we have a date ready.

And with that, have a great weekend.

Thanks for creeping with us,

thanks for listening, and as always, a special thank you to our patrons who support us via Patreon.

Please see the link in our show notes to learn more about how you yes, you can begin to haunt the dump, guard vortexes, or even become a scorching Sasquatch. Ooh.

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Here's the thing. I like my enclosure.

I'm not about to hang out with the Blair Witch by myself, especially.

Well, then you're not by yourself if you're with the Blair Witch.

But yeah, I'm not a good camping person. I haven't really solo traveled too much. I guess I have for our podcast trips, but I usually end up living in the airport forever.

Yeah, which is not fun alone.

An airport hates to see Amanda go.

They really, really.

They really do.

They hate to see me go through tsa. They hate to see me try to leave the airport. It's just not good.