Speaker:
00:00:00
Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio): So the
last thing we're talking about, Was
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going into the creation myth, right?
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Yeah.
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Now let's talk about the
creation method a little bit.
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Okay.
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All right.
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Cool.
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Let's do it.
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All right.
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Plato in one of his
dialogues, that to me says.
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He gives an account of creation.
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And again, it's a myth or a parable.
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He's not necessarily saying this
is how it actually occurred.
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But it's his way of explaining what
he thinks reality is like maybe.
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Best way to put that.
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Okay.
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In this account.
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A spiritual being.
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Not to create a guide like us.
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He's a spiritual being within
the realm of reality as it were.
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And he's labeled the Demi urge.
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I forget why that's a weird title.
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Isn't it.
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Yeah, Demi urge.
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Um, anyway.
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The Demi urge.
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Before he does this.
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The only thing that exists is the
realm of forms or the realm of ideas.
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But the Demi urge takes matter.
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And begins fashioning this physical world.
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With kind of the blueprint
of the forums in mind.
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But it has to use this matter.
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And the matter is a little bit
recalcitrant, like Plato the modeling
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clay would be, you know, has limitations.
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So you can't really make the
perfect Taurus or the perfect
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form of justice within this world.
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All you can do is create things
that are like it in some way.
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They have some similarities to it.
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And that's what this
world consists though.
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This world consists this physical realm.
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Consists of.
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What the Demi urge has created out
of matter to bear some resemblance
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to inspired by the blueprint of the
forms as it were, I'm simplifying that.
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Sure.
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But that's kind of tells you the
relationship between those two.
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The best thing you can do then.
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Is try to look at something
and using your mind.
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try to understand the form of that
thing and not just understand the
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individual instance like that particular
horse or that particular human.
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And so it affects the whole way that he's
thinking through the goal philosophy or
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the goal of wisdom or the goal of life.
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that's where he's going with that.
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Does that make sense at all?
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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Now again in Christian theology.
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The forms become.
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What's in God's mind as he creates now.
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The Demi urge is not the creator.
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God.
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The damage is working with.
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Preexisting material.
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I preexisting ideas.
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I mean, I was going to ask like,
okay, where did that come from?
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But he's just given, he's just
given a story to try to illustrate.
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So he's not trying to
answer that question.
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No, I don't think he is.
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Okay.
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Some people disagree on how
seriously you should take that.
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Okay.
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So that's going to be different,
but, well, it's also going to be
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different than, but kind of like Plato.
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is when Neoplatonism comes along.
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They've got this whole hierarchy.
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Of spiritual beans.
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depending on the particular form of
Neoplatonism very closely tied to some
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of the mystery religions of the, First
and second century a D they've got
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these hierarchy of spiritual beings.
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Right.
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And they would have names
for each one of them.
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The Demi urge occupies a
middle lower position on that.
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So he's not even closed.
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The STEMI urge.
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It's not even close to being the one God.
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Or the one.
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and they would argue in Neoplatonism
that he makes a mistake when he
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does this, that this physical world.
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Shouldn't be here.
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The Debbie urge messed it up.
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Um, or the craftsman as a optical.
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It's it's a blender.
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It's a mistake.
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Yeah.
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So then you've got this whole idea.
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That the goal.
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Of enlightenment, but
even the virtuous life.
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Is to move away from the
physical as much as you are able.
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Yeah, because it's valueless.
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It's mistake.
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And have this life of knowledge
of the mind and this intellectual
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unity with the one, if you can.
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So this is all kind of flowing
out of that same stream of a
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Play-Doh that the physical world
is going to be less valuable.
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And they're going to increase that,
but it's a theme already in Play-Doh.
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So how, how would they like
move away from the physical
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nature in order to take on more?
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Spiritual.
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And be enlightened to spiritual things.
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Sure.
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Well first, you would just say that those
things don't matter if they're value less,
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just the physical, it doesn't matter.
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Right?
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That's like Paul saying like, Hey,
what you guys say is like, what you do
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in your body, doesn't matter because
it's all going to hell in a hand
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basket for the body, the body for food.
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Yeah.
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Uh, that's how he quotes them.
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And so you already see that idea of.
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It was already the first century.
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Neoplatonism as a system, as an
evolved until the third century,
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but its antecedents are here.
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Now.
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Once you make that move.
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That the physical world is not valuable.
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You have two roads before you
there's like a fork in the road then.
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One of those.
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Is the way of aestheticism
saying because of that.
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We're not going to engage
with the physical world.
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As much as possible.
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We're only going to do the
things We have to do to survive.
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So we're going to just give you this.
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little food as we can.
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We're going to abstain from sex.
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So abstinence becomes something
very prevalent as part of
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the spiritual life here.
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It's not in the Bible.
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we're going to abstain from sex.
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We're going to abstain from
food as much as possible.
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So you see this a lot of the
monks, um, and a lot of the.
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theologians emphasizing self denial.
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Part of is coming out of this.
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That's one road.
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The other road is to say, well,
the body and the things we do
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with the body don't matter.
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Therefore do whatever you want.
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You know, have all the sex you want
to go to all the prostitutes you
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want eat, drink, you'll be married.
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because all those things are valued.
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It's anyway, so it doesn't
make any difference.
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In your spiritual ascent.
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And that's the more popular road.
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For obvious reasons.
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Also not really in scripture.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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So you got this full kind
of denial of the body or.
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Dishonoring of the body.
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Or this fall just embrace of like I,
it's also a dishonoring of the body.
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But just on the other side of that.
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Yeah, it's dishonoring the
body because the body is part
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of the half of the whiteboard.
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That's not valuable.
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that's not a biblical thought.
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Hmm.
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And yet we seal, we still see
the way that works within many
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Christians approach to life today.
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Yeah, on both sides of that spectrum.
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Sure.
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But more popularly in our context, maybe
on the, on the latter side of that.
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Yeah.
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But Even well into the late middle ages.
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You would have the Catholic
church often teaching.
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That sex is only for reproduction.
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And if you're not using it for
that, then you are sitting.
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And they will try to denigrate
the pleasure of that.
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You need it because, we need more
people, you know, God created
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us to have children that way.
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But really we want to minimize
sexual pleasure and sexual,
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Gloria as much as possible.
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Hmm.
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And then of course the
opposite side is today where.
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For most people.
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Sex has no spiritual meaning at all.
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It's just almost recreational.
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If you feel like you
want to do that, do it.
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It does it.
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Have this profound effect on
you spiritually because it's a
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bodily and also it's disconnected
from the procreative act.
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Yeah.
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Usually.
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Yeah.
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Um, so Both polarities of the spectrum.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So is that also related to the.
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These the abstinence concept related to
why the, um, priesthood is in, in the
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Catholic tradition is, um, reserved for.
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single.
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Yes.
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Man.
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Yeah.
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That's interesting.
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Yeah.
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I mean, you certainly don't
get it from the old Testament.
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Do you.
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The priests in the old
Testament were married.
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They were.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And then in the new Testament, I don't
think it's proven to me, but from what
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I've read to be a member of the Sanhedrin.
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You had to be married.
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And so that's or to be a Pharisee of
the highest order you had to be married.
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And that's why I've made
people feel like Paul was.
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In his past before his conversion.
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Affairsy B.
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Um, That's why they feel like
he had a wife previously.
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Yeah, because in his role
as a teacher and a Pharisee.
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That would have been expected.
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Yeah, and I mean, I certainly don't want
to make a caricature of Catholic theology.
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I think it's more robust than that.
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Paul says, but it's
got some roots in that.
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I mean, Paul Paul makes the point that
as a single person, you can do more
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for the kingdom and that kind of thing.
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So there is that there's that, but.
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Um, I heard a, I heard a, a
Jewish anecdote about marriage.
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If you're interested.
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Lay it on me.
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Uh, there was a Jewish rabbi.
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It was said that in the,
certain Jewish mission.
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Now that.
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The only reason why you could
forsake your husband Lee
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duties would be to study Torah.
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And so there was debate on how
much you could leave your wife
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in order to go study Torah.
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And one rabbi said it was seven years.
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And so he left for seven years.
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To study Torah.
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And when he came back,
before he entered in.
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He heard his wife having a
conversation with one of her
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friends and her friend was like,
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That's gotta be hard for him
to, to leave for seven years.
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And she being a good wife said.
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I'll tell you what.
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Uh, because he's studying Torah.
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I give him another seven years.
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It's just so, so good and godly of him.
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So before I went in, he turned
back around, went and left for
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another seven years of study Torah.
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Interesting story.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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My point with all that.
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Is that.
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This dualism.
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Is not a historical antecedent.
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That only historians of philosophy
should be interested in.
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It's something for good or
for bad that has shaped.
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Christian thought, and even the
thought of Christians living.
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In the Western world.
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21st century.
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Yeah, for sure.
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it's kind of foundational, but I could
see the way that I can see the way that
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the, um, Christian thought, I mean, even
thinking back to Genesis and you've got
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God as creator and then his creation.
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I can see how that is
dualistic in a sense.
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And you can see that.
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At God exists.
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in a different way as a nonphysical
being, who's not becoming
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outside of time, not changing.
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You know, that kind of thing.
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I can, I can totally see that.
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Right.
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But you gotta be careful with what that
means for what's in that realm of matter
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and, and how you treat that because.
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You don't want to dishonor what
God has created and called good.
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You know, but oftentimes that can happen.
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That's exactly one of the
fundamental differences.
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That comes out of this then.
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For Plato.
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And Platonism.
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The body and the physical world.
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Are either bad.
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A mistake or at least value lists.
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For Christian thought biblical thought.
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The physical world is good.
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Six times guys says it is good.
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Hmm.
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Yeah.
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And the scriptures talk over and
over again about God creating it
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out of his good purpose that it
reflects some of the badges diem.
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Beauty of God.
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Yeah.
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Then he gives us things to enjoy.
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Uh, you would talks about, you know,
bread and wine, and he brings from
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the earth where humans to enjoy.
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You know, so.
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It's a radically different thing.
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In biblical theology creation, this
physical creation is a good thing.
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Yes, it can be idealized.
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It can be abused.
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But that doesn't mean it's not good.
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it just.
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Tells you that it is good.
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You know, you don't pervert.
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Something that's already bad.
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Yeah.
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In that sense.
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And I think the way this plays out is.
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The prevalence of the idea that after we
die, Our eternal state is going to be.
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An immortality instead of a resurrection.
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So this non bodily existence.
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In heaven on the cloud somewhere.
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The prevalence of that idea
drives me crazy because that
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is not, not the biblical idea.
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The biblical idea is even if there's
an intermediate state between the goal
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is resurrection in a physical body.
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On the earth.
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That is a clear teaching of scripture.
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Yeah.
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So we'll be having well in the sense that.
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God himself then is able
to 12 with his creatures.
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So if you'd find heaven as all things
are right in way of union with God.
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Yes, that's happened.
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But it's not someplace out in the farthest
galaxy or beyond the, the universe itself.
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It's it's this world.
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Yeah, this earth.
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God makes a good earth.
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He creates men and women to be his
ambassadors, his representatives
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within this physical world.
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And that is such a, like all things.
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God does.
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It is a good and wise plan and
he's not going to give up on it.
333
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He might take a different way to get there
because of his allowance for human sin.
334
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Because we're free.
335
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We'll be in soccer and give up on that.
336
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So, anyway, and again, I'm preaching now.
337
00:12:51,692 --> 00:12:52,472
Well, no, it's good.
338
00:12:52,802 --> 00:12:55,532
To reiterate, not just humans
either, but all of creation.
339
00:12:55,562 --> 00:12:55,922
Yes.
340
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guy created.
341
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Creation with a purpose in
mind for humans to expand the
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garden and to develop culture.
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And these sort of organize the
raw materials to bring about.
344
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It's goodness, in a way that it started
as a fledgling and it's going to grow.
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Right.
346
00:13:11,114 --> 00:13:12,854
And so he's still bringing
it to that purpose.
347
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He's not.
348
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Just.
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plucking Christians out to
go to this other place, to
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get rid of the earth, but to.
351
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Resurrect all of it.
352
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Yes.
353
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Humans in creation.
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00:13:22,633 --> 00:13:22,843
Yeah.
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Together.
356
00:13:24,523 --> 00:13:25,033
Yes.
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I don't know if it's the main reason.
358
00:13:26,809 --> 00:13:30,079
Maybe though the main reason we
have lost sight of that is because.
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00:13:30,401 --> 00:13:34,451
Christian theology has taken in too
much play too on this particular point.
360
00:13:34,451 --> 00:13:34,811
Anyway.
361
00:13:34,871 --> 00:13:35,171
Yeah.
362
00:13:36,281 --> 00:13:38,531
I mean we're, I mean, we're getting
at the heart of what we're trying to.
363
00:13:38,981 --> 00:13:42,371
As I discuss here that the
influence between these two and.
364
00:13:42,779 --> 00:13:47,540
try to distinguish between them so that
we can have, better theology, right?
365
00:13:48,140 --> 00:13:49,010
That's the goal.
366
00:13:49,370 --> 00:13:50,330
Hopefully this helps.
367
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:51,140
So, yeah.
368
00:13:51,140 --> 00:13:53,030
Well, thank you for exploring.
369
00:13:53,450 --> 00:13:58,040
Plato's biggest idea of dualism and
the illustrations are really helpful.
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00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:02,884
So hopefully people have a chance to
write down and kind of conceptualize it.
371
00:14:03,049 --> 00:14:04,159
The image that you.
372
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,480
had for us about the whiteboard
and all these different.
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links.
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00:14:07,915 --> 00:14:08,545
Yeah, I hope so.
375
00:14:09,325 --> 00:14:10,765
But really, really helpful.
376
00:14:11,215 --> 00:14:12,085
Thinking through.
377
00:14:12,085 --> 00:14:16,217
How we understand reality
and our idea of dualism and.
378
00:14:16,599 --> 00:14:21,399
Especially in case there are ways in which
we dishonor the physical either through.
379
00:14:21,399 --> 00:14:23,829
denigrating and trying to get
rid of, or through excess.
380
00:14:23,979 --> 00:14:24,249
Right.
381
00:14:25,087 --> 00:14:26,317
All right, that's it for now.
382
00:14:26,347 --> 00:14:27,547
Thanks my pleasure.
383
00:14:27,607 --> 00:14:27,667
See.
384
00:14:27,667 --> 00:14:27,937
See ya.
385
00:14:28,027 --> 00:14:28,327
See ya.
