Speaker:
00:00:00
Microphone (ZOOM P4 Audio): So the
last thing we're talking about, Was
2
:
00:00:02
going into the creation myth, right?
3
:
00:00:05
Yeah.
4
:
00:00:05
Now let's talk about the
creation method a little bit.
5
:
00:00:07
Okay.
6
:
00:00:08
All right.
7
:
00:00:08
Cool.
8
:
00:00:08
Let's do it.
9
:
00:00:09
All right.
10
:
00:00:10
Plato in one of his
dialogues, that to me says.
11
:
00:00:13
He gives an account of creation.
12
:
00:00:15
And again, it's a myth or a parable.
13
:
00:00:17
He's not necessarily saying this
is how it actually occurred.
14
:
00:00:21
But it's his way of explaining what
he thinks reality is like maybe.
15
:
00:00:25
Best way to put that.
16
:
00:00:26
Okay.
17
:
00:00:27
In this account.
18
:
00:00:28
A spiritual being.
19
:
00:00:30
Not to create a guide like us.
20
:
00:00:32
He's a spiritual being within
the realm of reality as it were.
21
:
00:00:36
And he's labeled the Demi urge.
22
:
00:00:38
I forget why that's a weird title.
23
:
00:00:40
Isn't it.
24
:
00:00:41
Yeah, Demi urge.
25
:
00:00:42
Um, anyway.
26
:
00:00:44
The Demi urge.
27
:
00:00:46
Before he does this.
28
:
00:00:47
The only thing that exists is the
realm of forms or the realm of ideas.
29
:
00:00:52
But the Demi urge takes matter.
30
:
00:00:54
And begins fashioning this physical world.
31
:
00:00:58
With kind of the blueprint
of the forums in mind.
32
:
00:01:01
But it has to use this matter.
33
:
00:01:03
And the matter is a little bit
recalcitrant, like Plato the modeling
34
:
00:01:07
clay would be, you know, has limitations.
35
:
00:01:10
So you can't really make the
perfect Taurus or the perfect
36
:
00:01:13
form of justice within this world.
37
:
00:01:15
All you can do is create things
that are like it in some way.
38
:
00:01:19
They have some similarities to it.
39
:
00:01:22
And that's what this
world consists though.
40
:
00:01:24
This world consists this physical realm.
41
:
00:01:26
Consists of.
42
:
00:01:28
What the Demi urge has created out
of matter to bear some resemblance
43
:
00:01:33
to inspired by the blueprint of the
forms as it were, I'm simplifying that.
44
:
00:01:38
Sure.
45
:
00:01:38
But that's kind of tells you the
relationship between those two.
46
:
00:01:42
The best thing you can do then.
47
:
00:01:44
Is try to look at something
and using your mind.
48
:
00:01:48
try to understand the form of that
thing and not just understand the
49
:
00:01:52
individual instance like that particular
horse or that particular human.
50
:
00:01:57
And so it affects the whole way that he's
thinking through the goal philosophy or
51
:
00:02:01
the goal of wisdom or the goal of life.
52
:
00:02:03
that's where he's going with that.
53
:
00:02:05
Does that make sense at all?
54
:
00:02:07
Yeah.
55
:
00:02:08
Okay.
56
:
00:02:09
Now again in Christian theology.
57
:
00:02:11
The forms become.
58
:
00:02:13
What's in God's mind as he creates now.
59
:
00:02:16
The Demi urge is not the creator.
60
:
00:02:18
God.
61
:
00:02:19
The damage is working with.
62
:
00:02:20
Preexisting material.
63
:
00:02:21
I preexisting ideas.
64
:
00:02:22
I mean, I was going to ask like,
okay, where did that come from?
65
:
00:02:25
But he's just given, he's just
given a story to try to illustrate.
66
:
00:02:28
So he's not trying to
answer that question.
67
:
00:02:30
No, I don't think he is.
68
:
00:02:31
Okay.
69
:
00:02:32
Some people disagree on how
seriously you should take that.
70
:
00:02:35
Okay.
71
:
00:02:35
So that's going to be different,
but, well, it's also going to be
72
:
00:02:37
different than, but kind of like Plato.
73
:
00:02:39
is when Neoplatonism comes along.
74
:
00:02:43
They've got this whole hierarchy.
75
:
00:02:45
Of spiritual beans.
76
:
00:02:48
depending on the particular form of
Neoplatonism very closely tied to some
77
:
00:02:52
of the mystery religions of the, First
and second century a D they've got
78
:
00:02:56
these hierarchy of spiritual beings.
79
:
00:02:58
Right.
80
:
00:02:59
And they would have names
for each one of them.
81
:
00:03:02
The Demi urge occupies a
middle lower position on that.
82
:
00:03:05
So he's not even closed.
83
:
00:03:07
The STEMI urge.
84
:
00:03:08
It's not even close to being the one God.
85
:
00:03:10
Or the one.
86
:
00:03:11
and they would argue in Neoplatonism
that he makes a mistake when he
87
:
00:03:16
does this, that this physical world.
88
:
00:03:18
Shouldn't be here.
89
:
00:03:20
The Debbie urge messed it up.
90
:
00:03:22
Um, or the craftsman as a optical.
91
:
00:03:24
It's it's a blender.
92
:
00:03:26
It's a mistake.
93
:
00:03:28
Yeah.
94
:
00:03:28
So then you've got this whole idea.
95
:
00:03:30
That the goal.
96
:
00:03:32
Of enlightenment, but
even the virtuous life.
97
:
00:03:35
Is to move away from the
physical as much as you are able.
98
:
00:03:41
Yeah, because it's valueless.
99
:
00:03:42
It's mistake.
100
:
00:03:44
And have this life of knowledge
of the mind and this intellectual
101
:
00:03:48
unity with the one, if you can.
102
:
00:03:51
So this is all kind of flowing
out of that same stream of a
103
:
00:03:54
Play-Doh that the physical world
is going to be less valuable.
104
:
00:03:59
And they're going to increase that,
but it's a theme already in Play-Doh.
105
:
00:04:02
So how, how would they like
move away from the physical
106
:
00:04:05
nature in order to take on more?
107
:
00:04:06
Spiritual.
108
:
00:04:07
And be enlightened to spiritual things.
109
:
00:04:10
Sure.
110
:
00:04:11
Well first, you would just say that those
things don't matter if they're value less,
111
:
00:04:15
just the physical, it doesn't matter.
112
:
00:04:16
Right?
113
:
00:04:17
That's like Paul saying like, Hey,
what you guys say is like, what you do
114
:
00:04:20
in your body, doesn't matter because
it's all going to hell in a hand
115
:
00:04:23
basket for the body, the body for food.
116
:
00:04:24
Yeah.
117
:
00:04:25
Uh, that's how he quotes them.
118
:
00:04:26
And so you already see that idea of.
119
:
00:04:28
It was already the first century.
120
:
00:04:30
Neoplatonism as a system, as an
evolved until the third century,
121
:
00:04:34
but its antecedents are here.
122
:
00:04:36
Now.
123
:
00:04:37
Once you make that move.
124
:
00:04:38
That the physical world is not valuable.
125
:
00:04:41
You have two roads before you
there's like a fork in the road then.
126
:
00:04:46
One of those.
127
:
00:04:47
Is the way of aestheticism
saying because of that.
128
:
00:04:50
We're not going to engage
with the physical world.
129
:
00:04:53
As much as possible.
130
:
00:04:55
We're only going to do the
things We have to do to survive.
131
:
00:04:58
So we're going to just give you this.
132
:
00:04:59
little food as we can.
133
:
00:05:01
We're going to abstain from sex.
134
:
00:05:03
So abstinence becomes something
very prevalent as part of
135
:
00:05:06
the spiritual life here.
136
:
00:05:08
It's not in the Bible.
137
:
00:05:10
we're going to abstain from sex.
138
:
00:05:11
We're going to abstain from
food as much as possible.
139
:
00:05:14
So you see this a lot of the
monks, um, and a lot of the.
140
:
00:05:17
theologians emphasizing self denial.
141
:
00:05:19
Part of is coming out of this.
142
:
00:05:22
That's one road.
143
:
00:05:23
The other road is to say, well,
the body and the things we do
144
:
00:05:26
with the body don't matter.
145
:
00:05:28
Therefore do whatever you want.
146
:
00:05:30
You know, have all the sex you want
to go to all the prostitutes you
147
:
00:05:32
want eat, drink, you'll be married.
148
:
00:05:34
because all those things are valued.
149
:
00:05:36
It's anyway, so it doesn't
make any difference.
150
:
00:05:38
In your spiritual ascent.
151
:
00:05:40
And that's the more popular road.
152
:
00:05:42
For obvious reasons.
153
:
00:05:43
Also not really in scripture.
154
:
00:05:45
Right.
155
:
00:05:46
Yeah.
156
:
00:05:47
So you got this full kind
of denial of the body or.
157
:
00:05:51
Dishonoring of the body.
158
:
00:05:53
Or this fall just embrace of like I,
it's also a dishonoring of the body.
159
:
00:05:57
But just on the other side of that.
160
:
00:05:59
Yeah, it's dishonoring the
body because the body is part
161
:
00:06:02
of the half of the whiteboard.
162
:
00:06:03
That's not valuable.
163
:
00:06:06
that's not a biblical thought.
164
:
00:06:08
Hmm.
165
:
00:06:09
And yet we seal, we still see
the way that works within many
166
:
00:06:13
Christians approach to life today.
167
:
00:06:16
Yeah, on both sides of that spectrum.
168
:
00:06:17
Sure.
169
:
00:06:19
But more popularly in our context, maybe
on the, on the latter side of that.
170
:
00:06:24
Yeah.
171
:
00:06:25
But Even well into the late middle ages.
172
:
00:06:28
You would have the Catholic
church often teaching.
173
:
00:06:32
That sex is only for reproduction.
174
:
00:06:36
And if you're not using it for
that, then you are sitting.
175
:
00:06:40
And they will try to denigrate
the pleasure of that.
176
:
00:06:44
You need it because, we need more
people, you know, God created
177
:
00:06:48
us to have children that way.
178
:
00:06:50
But really we want to minimize
sexual pleasure and sexual,
179
:
00:06:53
Gloria as much as possible.
180
:
00:06:55
Hmm.
181
:
00:06:56
And then of course the
opposite side is today where.
182
:
00:06:58
For most people.
183
:
00:06:59
Sex has no spiritual meaning at all.
184
:
00:07:02
It's just almost recreational.
185
:
00:07:04
If you feel like you
want to do that, do it.
186
:
00:07:06
It does it.
187
:
00:07:06
Have this profound effect on
you spiritually because it's a
188
:
00:07:09
bodily and also it's disconnected
from the procreative act.
189
:
00:07:12
Yeah.
190
:
00:07:13
Usually.
191
:
00:07:13
Yeah.
192
:
00:07:14
Um, so Both polarities of the spectrum.
193
:
00:07:16
Yeah, exactly.
194
:
00:07:18
So is that also related to the.
195
:
00:07:21
These the abstinence concept related to
why the, um, priesthood is in, in the
196
:
00:07:26
Catholic tradition is, um, reserved for.
197
:
00:07:29
single.
198
:
00:07:30
Yes.
199
:
00:07:31
Man.
200
:
00:07:31
Yeah.
201
:
00:07:34
That's interesting.
202
:
00:07:34
Yeah.
203
:
00:07:35
I mean, you certainly don't
get it from the old Testament.
204
:
00:07:36
Do you.
205
:
00:07:37
The priests in the old
Testament were married.
206
:
00:07:39
They were.
207
:
00:07:40
Yeah.
208
:
00:07:40
Yeah.
209
:
00:07:41
And then in the new Testament, I don't
think it's proven to me, but from what
210
:
00:07:46
I've read to be a member of the Sanhedrin.
211
:
00:07:49
You had to be married.
212
:
00:07:51
And so that's or to be a Pharisee of
the highest order you had to be married.
213
:
00:07:56
And that's why I've made
people feel like Paul was.
214
:
00:07:59
In his past before his conversion.
215
:
00:08:01
Affairsy B.
216
:
00:08:03
Um, That's why they feel like
he had a wife previously.
217
:
00:08:06
Yeah, because in his role
as a teacher and a Pharisee.
218
:
00:08:10
That would have been expected.
219
:
00:08:12
Yeah, and I mean, I certainly don't want
to make a caricature of Catholic theology.
220
:
00:08:16
I think it's more robust than that.
221
:
00:08:18
Paul says, but it's
got some roots in that.
222
:
00:08:21
I mean, Paul Paul makes the point that
as a single person, you can do more
223
:
00:08:24
for the kingdom and that kind of thing.
224
:
00:08:25
So there is that there's that, but.
225
:
00:08:28
Um, I heard a, I heard a, a
Jewish anecdote about marriage.
226
:
00:08:33
If you're interested.
227
:
00:08:34
Lay it on me.
228
:
00:08:35
Uh, there was a Jewish rabbi.
229
:
00:08:37
It was said that in the,
certain Jewish mission.
230
:
00:08:40
Now that.
231
:
00:08:40
The only reason why you could
forsake your husband Lee
232
:
00:08:43
duties would be to study Torah.
233
:
00:08:46
And so there was debate on how
much you could leave your wife
234
:
00:08:50
in order to go study Torah.
235
:
00:08:52
And one rabbi said it was seven years.
236
:
00:08:54
And so he left for seven years.
237
:
00:08:57
To study Torah.
238
:
00:08:58
And when he came back,
before he entered in.
239
:
00:09:00
He heard his wife having a
conversation with one of her
240
:
00:09:02
friends and her friend was like,
241
:
00:09:04
That's gotta be hard for him
to, to leave for seven years.
242
:
00:09:07
And she being a good wife said.
243
:
00:09:10
I'll tell you what.
244
:
00:09:11
Uh, because he's studying Torah.
245
:
00:09:12
I give him another seven years.
246
:
00:09:14
It's just so, so good and godly of him.
247
:
00:09:16
So before I went in, he turned
back around, went and left for
248
:
00:09:19
another seven years of study Torah.
249
:
00:09:22
Interesting story.
250
:
00:09:23
Yeah.
251
:
00:09:24
Yeah.
252
:
00:09:26
My point with all that.
253
:
00:09:28
Is that.
254
:
00:09:28
This dualism.
255
:
00:09:30
Is not a historical antecedent.
256
:
00:09:32
That only historians of philosophy
should be interested in.
257
:
00:09:36
It's something for good or
for bad that has shaped.
258
:
00:09:39
Christian thought, and even the
thought of Christians living.
259
:
00:09:42
In the Western world.
260
:
00:09:43
21st century.
261
:
00:09:45
Yeah, for sure.
262
:
00:09:47
it's kind of foundational, but I could
see the way that I can see the way that
263
:
00:09:50
the, um, Christian thought, I mean, even
thinking back to Genesis and you've got
264
:
00:09:54
God as creator and then his creation.
265
:
00:09:56
I can see how that is
dualistic in a sense.
266
:
00:09:59
And you can see that.
267
:
00:10:01
At God exists.
268
:
00:10:03
in a different way as a nonphysical
being, who's not becoming
269
:
00:10:07
outside of time, not changing.
270
:
00:10:10
You know, that kind of thing.
271
:
00:10:11
I can, I can totally see that.
272
:
00:10:13
Right.
273
:
00:10:13
But you gotta be careful with what that
means for what's in that realm of matter
274
:
00:10:17
and, and how you treat that because.
275
:
00:10:20
You don't want to dishonor what
God has created and called good.
276
:
00:10:23
You know, but oftentimes that can happen.
277
:
00:10:26
That's exactly one of the
fundamental differences.
278
:
00:10:28
That comes out of this then.
279
:
00:10:30
For Plato.
280
:
00:10:31
And Platonism.
281
:
00:10:33
The body and the physical world.
282
:
00:10:35
Are either bad.
283
:
00:10:37
A mistake or at least value lists.
284
:
00:10:40
For Christian thought biblical thought.
285
:
00:10:43
The physical world is good.
286
:
00:10:46
Six times guys says it is good.
287
:
00:10:49
Hmm.
288
:
00:10:49
Yeah.
289
:
00:10:50
And the scriptures talk over and
over again about God creating it
290
:
00:10:54
out of his good purpose that it
reflects some of the badges diem.
291
:
00:10:57
Beauty of God.
292
:
00:10:59
Yeah.
293
:
00:10:59
Then he gives us things to enjoy.
294
:
00:11:02
Uh, you would talks about, you know,
bread and wine, and he brings from
295
:
00:11:05
the earth where humans to enjoy.
296
:
00:11:07
You know, so.
297
:
00:11:08
It's a radically different thing.
298
:
00:11:10
In biblical theology creation, this
physical creation is a good thing.
299
:
00:11:15
Yes, it can be idealized.
300
:
00:11:17
It can be abused.
301
:
00:11:18
But that doesn't mean it's not good.
302
:
00:11:20
it just.
303
:
00:11:21
Tells you that it is good.
304
:
00:11:22
You know, you don't pervert.
305
:
00:11:23
Something that's already bad.
306
:
00:11:25
Yeah.
307
:
00:11:25
In that sense.
308
:
00:11:27
And I think the way this plays out is.
309
:
00:11:29
The prevalence of the idea that after we
die, Our eternal state is going to be.
310
:
00:11:35
An immortality instead of a resurrection.
311
:
00:11:38
So this non bodily existence.
312
:
00:11:41
In heaven on the cloud somewhere.
313
:
00:11:45
The prevalence of that idea
drives me crazy because that
314
:
00:11:48
is not, not the biblical idea.
315
:
00:11:51
The biblical idea is even if there's
an intermediate state between the goal
316
:
00:11:56
is resurrection in a physical body.
317
:
00:11:59
On the earth.
318
:
00:12:01
That is a clear teaching of scripture.
319
:
00:12:04
Yeah.
320
:
00:12:05
So we'll be having well in the sense that.
321
:
00:12:08
God himself then is able
to 12 with his creatures.
322
:
00:12:12
So if you'd find heaven as all things
are right in way of union with God.
323
:
00:12:16
Yes, that's happened.
324
:
00:12:17
But it's not someplace out in the farthest
galaxy or beyond the, the universe itself.
325
:
00:12:22
It's it's this world.
326
:
00:12:24
Yeah, this earth.
327
:
00:12:26
God makes a good earth.
328
:
00:12:28
He creates men and women to be his
ambassadors, his representatives
329
:
00:12:34
within this physical world.
330
:
00:12:36
And that is such a, like all things.
331
:
00:12:38
God does.
332
:
00:12:39
It is a good and wise plan and
he's not going to give up on it.
333
:
00:12:43
He might take a different way to get there
because of his allowance for human sin.
334
:
00:12:47
Because we're free.
335
:
00:12:47
We'll be in soccer and give up on that.
336
:
00:12:49
So, anyway, and again, I'm preaching now.
337
:
00:12:51
Well, no, it's good.
338
:
00:12:52
To reiterate, not just humans
either, but all of creation.
339
:
00:12:55
Yes.
340
:
00:12:56
guy created.
341
:
00:12:57
Creation with a purpose in
mind for humans to expand the
342
:
00:13:01
garden and to develop culture.
343
:
00:13:03
And these sort of organize the
raw materials to bring about.
344
:
00:13:06
It's goodness, in a way that it started
as a fledgling and it's going to grow.
345
:
00:13:10
Right.
346
:
00:13:11
And so he's still bringing
it to that purpose.
347
:
00:13:12
He's not.
348
:
00:13:13
Just.
349
:
00:13:14
plucking Christians out to
go to this other place, to
350
:
00:13:17
get rid of the earth, but to.
351
:
00:13:19
Resurrect all of it.
352
:
00:13:20
Yes.
353
:
00:13:21
Humans in creation.
354
:
00:13:22
Yeah.
355
:
00:13:22
Together.
356
:
00:13:24
Yes.
357
:
00:13:25
I don't know if it's the main reason.
358
:
00:13:26
Maybe though the main reason we
have lost sight of that is because.
359
:
00:13:30
Christian theology has taken in too
much play too on this particular point.
360
:
00:13:34
Anyway.
361
:
00:13:34
Yeah.
362
:
00:13:36
I mean we're, I mean, we're getting
at the heart of what we're trying to.
363
:
00:13:38
As I discuss here that the
influence between these two and.
364
:
00:13:42
try to distinguish between them so that
we can have, better theology, right?
365
:
00:13:48
That's the goal.
366
:
00:13:49
Hopefully this helps.
367
:
00:13:50
So, yeah.
368
:
00:13:51
Well, thank you for exploring.
369
:
00:13:53
Plato's biggest idea of dualism and
the illustrations are really helpful.
370
:
00:13:58
So hopefully people have a chance to
write down and kind of conceptualize it.
371
:
00:14:03
The image that you.
372
:
00:14:04
had for us about the whiteboard
and all these different.
373
:
00:14:07
links.
374
:
00:14:07
Yeah, I hope so.
375
:
00:14:09
But really, really helpful.
376
:
00:14:11
Thinking through.
377
:
00:14:12
How we understand reality
and our idea of dualism and.
378
:
00:14:16
Especially in case there are ways in which
we dishonor the physical either through.
379
:
00:14:21
denigrating and trying to get
rid of, or through excess.
380
:
00:14:23
Right.
381
:
00:14:25
All right, that's it for now.
382
:
00:14:26
Thanks my pleasure.
383
:
00:14:27
See.
384
:
00:14:27
See ya.
385
:
00:14:28
See ya.