In this episode, Nathan and Daniel delve into the life and philosophy of Heraclitus, one of the most influential philosophers of the pre-Socratic era. Known as 'Heraclitus the Obscure' or 'The Riddler', Heraclitus is famous for his notion of the continuous change in the universe, encapsulated in phrases like 'everything is in flux' and 'you cannot step into the same river twice'. His use of the concepts of fire and logos to explain change and order in the universe set the foundations for later philosophical thought, influencing figures like Plato, Aristotle, and even Christian theology. The discussion also touches on how his ideas were interpreted and possibly misrepresented by later philosophers. Heraclitus' legacy is explored in the context of Greek, Roman, and early Christian thought, highlighting his significant but often complex contributions to philosophy.

00:00 Introduction to Heraclitus

01:21 Heraclitus' Life and Influence

02:17 Heraclitus' Writings and Philosophy

03:38 Heraclitus' Famous Aphorisms

05:03 Heraclitus vs. Plato: Misinterpretations

08:07 The Concept of Fire in Heraclitus' Philosophy

17:28 The Role of Logos in Heraclitus' Thought

23:14 The Deep Meaning of Logos in the Old Testament

23:45 John's Use of Logos in the New Testament

25:57 Heraclitus and the Concept of Change

26:25 The Problem of the One and the Many

27:53 Unity and Diversity: Cows and Legos

32:56 Heraclitus' Influence on Greek and Roman Thought

35:54 Evaluating Heraclitus' Philosophy

37:34 The Rationality of the Universe and Human Understanding

43:28 Heraclitus and Christian Theology

45:25 Final Thoughts on Heraclitus

Hello, Nathan.

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Hello, Daniel.

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Today we get to talk about Heraclitus.

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Heraclitus.

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Yeah.

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a minute ago when we began talking about

this, you said, it sounds like a disease.

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I have acute Heraclitus, but no,

actually he is one of the great

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philosophers of the pre Socratic world.

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in his defense, I feel like a lot

of these Greek names sound like.

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diseases or something.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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They're, a little bit different.

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Aren't they?

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Miletus.

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That's a city.

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Well, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The Greek folks, the

Greek cities, the places.

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Yeah.

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Their, names don't come tripping

off our tongues at least.

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Yeah.

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So, Heraclitus.

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why are we talking about him and,

can you give us a little bit of a,

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An overview situate us today, right?

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I'm not going to be talking about

every philosopher, by the way,

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there is a good podcast that does

that the history of philosophy

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without gaps with Peter Adamson.

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but we're going to be tracing the main

flow and analyzing it as we go along.

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So we're gonna be talking about

Heraclitus because he's a part of

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that flow, that great conversation.

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He's an integral part.

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In fact, I think he is.

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Arguably the greatest philosopher

or the most influential anyway

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before Socrates and Plato.

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he's also going to be very influential

in Roman philosophy and also Christian

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theology because of his introduction

of the notion of the logos.

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Sweet, sweet.

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So, when was he alive?

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Where did he live?

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he lived in Ephesus and that is.

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Now, Western Turkey, but of course

it was a Greek city back then in

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that larger area called Ionia.

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He's a Greek writing in a Greek city.

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He dates from around 525 to 475.

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And these dates, again, are a little

fuzzy like most of the others.

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he's known for a couple things personally.

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One is that he is rather obscure

in his writing sometimes.

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In fact, he is called, the

Riddler or Heraclitus the Obscure.

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And that's partly because his

philosophy maybe is a little

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bit more nuanced or detailed.

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And, and then also he just writes

in these short pithy statements.

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So do we have, some of his original,

well, not original documents, but

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some of the manuscripts perhaps

because of the excavation that's

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happened in Ephesus or have those

kinds of gotten spread around and we

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just have more of the traditions or.

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Well, actually he's the first one that we

have a good deal of writing from directly.

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Sweet.

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So he apparently wrote a book called

On Nature, physiques is the Greek word

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and we don't have the whole thing,

but we have the first part of that.

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And then you have the interpretations

of him by Plato and Aristotle.

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and the other, Greek philosophers.

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So we actually have a pretty good amount,

but a lot of the times he tends to

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write in these short pithy statements.

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he doesn't.

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So much explain and reason

as declaim and pronounce.

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Do you have some examples of that?

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I do.

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the first two of these show also

another trait of his is he comes

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across as a misanthrope, you know,

kind of looking down upon the average

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person, and even other thinkers.

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So quote, Homer should be turned

out of the list and whipped.

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Here's another quote.

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The learning of many things

does not teach understanding.

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, otherwise it would have taught Hesiod

and Pythagoras and Xenophanes too, so

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those are more of his pungent ones that

he's kind of, picking some fights there.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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He's throwing some shade.

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One gets the idea he's kind of a jerk.

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I don't know that may have been just

the way they did things back then.

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Their intellectual discourse.

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And yeah, I mean, he's got to

separate himself from those guys.

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Now remind me, is he contemporary

with those little bit later?

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Okay.

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So he, he probably doesn't

actually Know them personally.

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Okay.

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He's just interacting with some

of their streams of thought and

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their writings that kind of thing.

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That's funny Wow, here's some more of this

short pungent phrases man is called a baby

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by God Doc is before straw to gold nature

loves to hide the road up is the road down

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Hmm, and then it's got two others that are

his most famous aphorisms and these are

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Quoted by Plato and Aristotle and others.

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First is, everything is in flux.

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And then the second, going

along with that, you cannot

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step into the same river twice.

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Hmm.

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Now, as we'll talk about, that's not

exactly what he said, but the easiest

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way to think about Heraclitus and the

way that he's often thought of, he is the

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guy that taught that everything changes.

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There's no permanence in the world.

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Everything's in flux.

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That is certainly how

Plato interpreted him.

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And thus Plato set him in opposition to

Parmenides, the next philosopher we'll

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study, who said that change is impossible.

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Things only seem to change.

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So for Plato, then you get these two

guys kind of serving as a perfect foil

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for his own philosophy, their opposites.

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And then he integrates their ideas

together of change or permanence.

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he did that by arguing that things in

the realm of material objects do change

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constantly, but things in the realm of

form or ideas are eternal and unchanging.

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Yeah.

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And we've kind of hinted that

notion before when we get to

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Plato, we'll talk about that a lot.

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Yeah, but I can totally see how he's,

starting to lay some groundwork now,

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here's the deal though, Plato was wrong.

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That's a bold, statement.

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Yeah, it is.

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It should be what whip like Homer.

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Well, I won't go that far, but he

was wrong about Heraclitus, either

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because he was trying too hard to

fit him into a scheme and use him

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as a foil and opposite to permanent

ease, or because maybe his knowledge

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of him was secondhand and deficient.

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I mean, he's writing almost

a hundred years later.

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So.

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he might've gotten his

understanding of Heraclitus

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from Heraclitus later following.

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Heraclitus did not say you cannot

step into the same river twice.

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What he actually said was, upon

those stepping into the same

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rivers, ever different waters flow.

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So you're saying that his writing.

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Said Upon those stepping into the same

rivers ever different waters flow but

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Scholars will suggest that Plato's

writing he's trying to quote but just

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gets the quote wrong Yeah, that's right.

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So some of his followers may have taken

that and misconstrued or something

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Plato picks up on it, but okay,

right I'm trying to understand why

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you say Plato got him wrong there.

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It just doesn't match exactly Right,

and then because of that the whole

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idea . He doesn't say that everything

is in flux and nothing is constant.

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It's much more nuanced than that.

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I see so to your point Plato's trying

to put him in a bad position Certain box

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in order to help him fit his own ideas.

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right.

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And he may or may not do that innocently.

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In other words, that may indeed be

what he thought he said, or maybe

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he's trying to fix the data a little

bit, but think of the difference.

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He doesn't say you can't step

into the same river twice.

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He says upon those stepping into the

same rivers, every different waters flow.

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So the river in one sense is the same.

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And in another sense, it's not the same.

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So Seneca, the Roman orator, he

says, and this is a direct quote

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from his moral letters, quote,

this is what Heraclitus says.

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We both do and do not step twice

into the same river because you

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see the name of the river stays the

same, but the water keeps flowing.

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Heraclitus point is that it is

the same river and yet it's a

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different river at the same time.

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Obviously, the water is different,

but the form of the river, its bank

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and direction and slope stay the same,

otherwise there would be no river.

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Hmm.

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Yeah.

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So there's, some nuance there, but

why is that an important distinction?

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Well because what he's trying to do is

not to say that everything changes, but

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he wants to explore the nature of change

and how the one and the many fit together.

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That is, is reality one

thing or many things?

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And if one, how do we count for

the diversity, including change?

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And if many, how do we count

for the unity or the universe?

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Now this is going to get a little bit

complex, but the juice is worth the

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squeeze here because there's a lot of

understanding that can, come out of this.

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We have to understand two things,

about Heraclitus and his teaching.

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First is fire, and the second is logos.

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So we're going to talk

about those two things.

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Fire and logos?

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Fire and logos.

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Okay.

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Do you remember how Thales had the

saying that everything is water and

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an axeman he said, everything is air.

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Yep.

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Right.

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So Heraclides is going to

say, everything is fire.

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But he's not saying it in quite

the same way of those other guys.

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It's more nuanced.

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The fire is the visual description

of change or permanence.

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The one and the many is fire.

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and the mechanism that both generates

and controls the fire is the logos.

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It's also called the one or the divine.

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So put those two ideas in your mind,

that everything is this Giant fire.

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So not like a campfire, it's more hidden.

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It's more underneath the structure

of things that we see, but

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reality is changing like this

giant fire that, consumes and

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then produces and change things.

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And what controls this and what generates

this is the logos, the one or the divine.

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So does he, mean fire as a metaphor there?

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I mean, things aren't All

physically hot, I'm trying to

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understand what that means exactly.

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Yeah, I don't think it is just a

metaphor for him, but probably not like

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the fire that we normally experience.

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He's thinking of fire more in an abstract

way than any particular fire that we

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would play around with or experience.

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So fires, this image of constancy and.

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Difference or constancy and change in

the sense that it's flames dancing and

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moving, but it's all stays constant

as energy and heat or something.

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Sure.

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The way that fire changes things.

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We could go into that a good deal and

spend some time there, but I probably

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won't just because it gets a little

technical But basically, When you think

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of fire, all things feed into the fire.

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The fire takes all things, consumes them,

and when it does so, it changes them.

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Now, for him, though, it

doesn't just consume them.

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It also, as it changes them,

produces something else.

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So, just like fire produces ashes,

he's thinking of this fire as producing

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two, Opposite kinds of things or

pushing into opposite directions,

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he will describe one as the way up.

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So fire sometimes changes things in

an upward way, and here he's thinking

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more of things that are, are dry.

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things that are thin.

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And then it also produces

things in the downward way.

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It gives a little bit more detail here.

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So the downward way of fire produces

things as it becomes heavier,

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becomes, water, becomes sea, and

then eventually it becomes earth.

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So all things are consumed by the

fire, but then they're changed in

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something else through the fire.

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Okay.

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That's the basic idea.

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And again, the mechanism I've read,

different ways this is described and I

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think I understand it, but to explain it

all would take another 10 or 15 minutes.

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Okay.

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that's helpful the way that

there's a process of change

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that, fire mediates, right?

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This fires an, a constant state of

tension and change or flux, and, has

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these two upwards and downward aspects.

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And so all reality then is dominated

by this idea of things changing,

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but also in opposite direction.

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So this idea of conflict or

opposition is gonna be very central.

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And even warfare opposite of

wills working against each other.

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He regards that as just an

essential part of the, the universe.

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there's a passage in the Iliad where,

Achilles is mourning the death of his

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friend and says, Oh, that conflict

and war would cease from the earth.

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And his comment, Heraclitus

comments on that.

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Well, basically what he's wishing is,

the abolition of reality itself, because

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reality is this opposition, this.

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Warfare to use a term loosely.

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So it's like tension between opposites.

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Yes.

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My, my mind kind of goes

to like yin and yang.

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Is there.

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yeah, I don't know if that

would work for this or not.

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Think of something like, playing

on a violin or a liar that

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they would have back then.

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what creates the music?

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It's when the bow opposes

the natural static.

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state of the string and makes it do

something it would not otherwise do.

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So those are opposition to each other,

but it's, that's what produces the music.

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Ooh, that's a good, illustration there.

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Let's come back to then this

idea of change and we'll see how

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the logo spits into all this.

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, let's take this and work it into

his, idea of the river, for example.

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It's the same river, although the

water in it constantly changes

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even by the nanosecond, right?

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Mm hmm.

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Yet, unless the shore of the river and

the bed of the river had some permanence,

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then the river would not exist.

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You just have water in a field.

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So his goal was not to deny change, but

to understand how some things change

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and why something does not change.

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And so the world order, cosmos, and

that's where this fire comes in.

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This is a quote from him, this world

order, then the cosmos, the same

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for all, no God made or man made.

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But it always was and is and will

be an everlasting fire, kindling by

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measure and going out by measure.

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Now he doesn't mean it ever

extinguishes, it's eternal, it's an

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everlasting fire, but what goes into

it is kindled and goes out is the idea.

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So this world order then, the

same for all, no God made or man

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made, it's not made by God or man.

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But it always was, and is, and will

be an everlasting fire, kindling by

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measure and going out by measure.

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So the cosmos is one thing, fire.

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But this fire is not so much the substance

of the cosmos, like water was for Thales,

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but more of its essence and its working.

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It's the, the meaning and how it works

rather than just the substance that

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it is like water was for Haley's.

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fire changes, all things, things are

burned up by becoming something different.

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Fire lives by feeding these things and

then transforming them into other things.

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incident, constant state of flux.

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It's got these two paths,

the upwards and downwards.

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What is unchanging?

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What is the bed and the bank of the river?

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The fire itself.

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The fire is uncreated and

eternal and unquenchable.

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And in this sense, he'll even

talk about the fire being

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divine, the one with a capital O.

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It's, it's an interesting and

different way of thinking about it,

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I'm starting to piece it together.

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I mean, when you first mentioned, I was

like, what the heck is he talking about?

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But this idea that, fire lives by feeding

and transforms things and I just have to

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get my mind away from Fire just being all

about heat and energy and light and right.

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Exactly.

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It's almost like the function of fire.

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What's the function of fire?

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Not what's the essence of fire.

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Yeah.

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I think that's a good way to think of it.

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So it's, starting to make sense.

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Do you remember how we've talked about

from the very first episode, this idea

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buried in the bedrock of Greek thought

all the way back from its beginnings

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on the Isle of Crete, of this shapeless

stream and all things arise out of this

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stream and then they go back into it.

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I haven't seen anyone else made

this connection before, but

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it seems something like that.

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It's this principle that is

the one and other things come

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and go out of that almost.

312

To me, it's very similar to that.

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Yeah.

314

I'm starting to see that too.

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So he will talk about

This one being divine.

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So he was what you would call a monist

because he believes all is one, and he'd

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also be a Pantheist because he identifies

that one with this universe itself.

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So it's not created and

separate from a creator God.

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It is identified with this universe.

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Now I think many of the other philosophers

we talked about this before we could

321

probably call them monist I mean

Thales everything is water then that

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implies a kind of monism, but he's the

first one to kind of make this more

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explicit Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

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So It's not a personality.

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No, but there is a oneness to society

or to the world the cosmos, right?

326

Yeah, and he makes an

interesting statement.

327

He says The one is quote, both willing

and unwilling to be called Zeus.

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So it's both willing and

unwilling to be called Zeus.

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What's he mean by that?

330

well it's willing to be called Zeus

because presumably for most people

331

Zeus is the common name for the

highest of gods for the divine.

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But it's unwilling

because for two reasons.

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First, the one is not a person.

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And second, because Zeus at

least is portrayed by Homer

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and he see odd is a scoundrel.

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Yeah.

337

again, he's the riddler.

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He's the obscure one.

339

Okay, so he's the Riddler.

340

Yeah, and this is example

of that statement.

341

so the one.

342

Can we call Zeus?

343

Because that's what most people think

are when they think of the most exalted

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being or, or the most exalted thing.

345

But at the same time, he shouldn't be

called Zeus because he's not a person.

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Besides Zeus is a scoundrel.

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the one is much beyond this.

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So normally he will call the one.

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God, but he will refer to as the

one, the wise reason or the logos.

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The Logos.

351

And this is the first time that

Logos is going to be used in a

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philosophical or religious sense.

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Yeah, so Logos, that's

a, that's a Greek word.

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It is.

355

So, we'll probably talk about the

technical definition, but what does that,

356

how does that get translated into English?

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Word.

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Okay.

359

Normally.

360

Okay.

361

So it is the word that you would

normally use to just say, someone said

362

this, there is another word, rhema,

which can, has a slightly different

363

semantical domain or shade of meaning.

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But normally if you're just going

to say, Jesus said this in the Greek

365

New Testament, it would be logos.

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So that's the basic meaning of the word.

367

But remember words can have

a very broad semantic range.

368

let's think about.

369

that word Logos.

370

Now, originally both not only in New

Testament, but in the Greek of Heraclitus

371

and the others, it would simply being

a word, something you would say, but

372

you can easily see how that shifts

just in the way that we use it today.

373

All right.

374

So say that you, Come from some

conference or something you're gone for

375

a week and you come back and I say hey

What's the word from this conference?

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And what I mean is not what is

one particular word, but what's

377

the message or what happened?

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What was the theme, and When you

think of it like that, then you see

379

okay, it already has a broader meaning

but then also because of that it has

380

this idea of Message, idea, which

are usually conveyed by words so

381

that there's that close association.

382

And then normally when you have a

message or an idea, closely attached

383

to that is the reasoning or the

rationale behind that message or idea.

384

or you might say the logic.

385

So yeah, guess where we get the word

logic from you have no idea From logos or

386

it could be further on a field of study.

387

So theology is a study of God

anthropology is a study of mankind

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right with a low G at the end.

389

That's right.

390

Yeah Yeah, so it has a low G all that

idea So that's interesting that that's

391

where we get Those words, right?

392

So it's a container of sorts packed

into it, is rationale and logic and even

393

emotion could be packaged into the logos.

394

Maybe.

395

I'm not sure about, emotion,

but reason or purpose.

396

Certainly think of it this way.

397

You've got one thing that

changes into another, right?

398

So you've got an acorn

that changes into an Oak.

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What has to happen or what do you

have to have to make sense of that?

400

Well, one thing you have to have the

actual physical substance, something's

401

changing into something else.

402

A green leaf is changing

into a red leaf in the fall.

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Acorn is changing into, you know,

so you have the actual substance.

404

And then for us to conceptualize that,

we also have to think about what it

405

changed from and what it changes into.

406

So those two poles opposite each

other, as it were, what it changed

407

from, what it changed into.

408

So you've got those two concepts.

409

And then third, you have to have

something that brings the change about.

410

For him, that was the logos.

411

The logos is both the source of the

change, but also why it changes the

412

pattern, the rationality, the way

it works and, the reason it changes.

413

All that's what he means when he

uses this word logos like that.

414

So in that illustration, what's the fire?

415

Cause I thought you're going to say

the thing that changes it is the

416

fire, but it seems like the fire

and the logos are pretty closely.

417

Yeah, they are as best

I can understand it.

418

And again, he's a, he's a real spirit.

419

He is the Riddler.

420

I think sometimes he equivocates on what

is fire and what is the logos, but the

421

best way I can understand it overall.

422

Is that the logos is what brings

about the fire and also what guides

423

the fire into what it's doing?

424

So how do we know that when the

fire changes one thing, it changes

425

it into the thing it should be

or what's the mechanism for that

426

instead of just obliterating that?

427

I think he would say that's the logos.

428

That's the difference between

the logos and the fire.

429

Okay.

430

Yeah, so that idea then is implying

something very important that's

431

going to have a huge pedigree in the

intellectual thought of the West and

432

in Christendom is that there is this

reason, this rationale, this purpose,

433

this blueprint, for why reality

is, what it is and what it's doing.

434

And you're going to find that

coming again in play a little bit

435

more, especially in Aristotle.

436

He's going to talk about the four causes.

437

this one correlates best to the

final cause, why something exists.

438

but you're also going to find

that John's going to use that

439

as John chapter one, right?

440

So in the beginning was the.

441

Logos, right?

442

And again, it's translated

in English as word.

443

Oftentimes it's capitalized though,

because it's clearly referring to Jesus.

444

Yeah.

445

If you read the rest of that chapter.

446

So John, the new Testament writer

writing in say 60 or 70 or 80 AD is using

447

that term to describe Jesus as the one

who brings all things into existence.

448

It seems John's doing that intentionally.

449

Perhaps there's some, Greek in his

audience, or he's at least well

450

versed in the philosophy of the

day and pointing how Jesus is that.

451

I definitely think he uses that

intentionally and purposefully.

452

Now.

453

For people that he was writing

to and in his mind, there's going

454

to be two streams of thought

associated with that word logos.

455

One of those is that Greek stream that we

just talked about, but the other is going

456

to be the Old Testament where primarily

that word is going to be used in a, deep

457

sense, more than just a casual sense.

458

about the word of the Lord, the

word of God, speaking into creation,

459

speaking into this world, either

as an act of creation or judgment.

460

So still what's guiding

the change in the world?

461

What's generating the things of this world

in the first place and then guiding them

462

along with some rational plan and purpose.

463

Yeah.

464

So if you look there, especially in

John one, he says in the beginning.

465

What's the logos?

466

All right, anyone who's all

familiar with the Bible is going

467

to say wait in the beginning

That's talking about to Genesis 1.

468

Yeah, and how did God bring things

into existence in Genesis 1?

469

through speaking, right?

470

and God said, now that's very

different than the creation

471

myths of the ancient world.

472

not only because it's a totality of

God creating things ex nihilo out of

473

nothing, but the way he does it by speech

instead of forming, or sometimes by

474

slaying and conflict, like in some of

the myths of Mesopotamia, very different.

475

And so John is, I think,

intentionally combining both uses.

476

Because it has both ideas that Jesus

is the way that God did that and then

477

Jesus is also the Meaning of creation,

so he's not just the one who generates

478

it, but he is the fullest meaning of

that in a very deep sense That's amazing.

479

Yeah, and I'm thinking okay if I'm

familiar with the Hebrew scriptures

480

You In the beginning God is how the

book starts right in the beginning

481

God created the heaven and the earth

and yeah He uses voice but in the

482

in the beginning Was the logos?

483

Okay, that makes sense.

484

I mean those fit well together Yeah in

the beginning, but then you're right

485

as John says, oh and the word put on

flesh or became flesh the person of

486

Jesus, yeah, that's speaking something

pretty profound about who Jesus was.

487

Yes, it certainly is.

488

So he is claiming that Jesus is the

will and word of God made flesh, that

489

he is the meaning and fulfillment of the

universe, the rational pattern of why

490

it exists and how it exists in the form

it does, who has now taken on the very

491

Elements of the universe in human flesh.

492

That's an outstanding claim.

493

I think Paul picks up on that later

when he says, all things are created

494

through him and by him and for him.

495

It's kind of a similar

philosophical point.

496

Yes.

497

Colossians one.

498

Yeah.

499

Yeah.

500

All things are created by him and for him.

501

Wow.

502

Huh?

503

All right.

504

we got carried away.

505

Yeah.

506

Put back in my mind.

507

What's the next thing?

508

Yeah, so that but that's all got its

grounds in this idea of Heraclitus he's

509

about 500 years before John's writing

roughly Yes, and he's not the only

510

one to going to talk about the Logos

in this way he's just the first So I

511

don't think John's necessarily reading

Heraclitus, but he's certainly familiar

512

with how the Greeks used that word.

513

Yeah, okay.

514

He's picking up on that,

tradition of Greek thought.

515

One more thing we could talk

about here and then we can do

516

a little bit of evaluation.

517

Because of his work on change and the

dynamics of change and the nature of

518

reality, He's also really one of the

first to give a good explanation and

519

analysis of the one and the many.

520

So have you ever heard that phrase,

the one and the many, or the

521

problem of the one and the many?

522

I don't know.

523

Okay.

524

So one of the things that the Greeks are

dealing with and somewhat before him, but

525

especially after him and because of him,

is the universe one thing or many things?

526

If it's one thing that, how do you

account for the apparent difference

527

of all the things within the universe?

528

If it's many things and how do you account

for the apparent unity of the universe?

529

So that problem is going to be pervasive

in early philosophical thought.

530

And if I'm interpreting,

Here, Clyde is right.

531

I think we can get some modern

analogies of the way that he

532

kind of advanced that idea.

533

And that is by understanding that

unity by its nature, includes

534

different and even opposing things.

535

And that, again, comes from that idea that

all reality is this working of opposites

536

together to form one harmonious part.

537

So you can't even really have unity

unless there's distinct elements

538

that are being unified, right?

539

At least not in the fullest

sense of the word unity.

540

Yeah, unity is not uniformity.

541

Exactly.

542

I Would try to get some examples of this

in my mind and here a couple I came up

543

with I think they work first example

Pitching your mind or herd of cows in

544

a field or a hillside Is that a unity?

545

Kind of, right?

546

They're separate cows, but in your

mind, you've got the idea of a

547

herd of cows or a hillside of cows.

548

So there is a conceptual unity,

but each one is distinct.

549

Yeah, like even, the use of plural

language to define a singular thing,

550

like a herd, like that's a thing, but

it's also made up of a lot of things.

551

That's true.

552

I hadn't thought of that.

553

But now, culture wise, think of an

individual cow itself, a cow displays

554

within itself a different kind of unity,

in which the different parts of its body

555

are both distinct, like the different cows

in the field, but they're also unlike.

556

Teeth are unlike lungs.

557

Lungs are unlike hooves.

558

Yet, teeth and lungs and hooves

and all the other parts of the body

559

Though they are both distinct and

unlike each other form a unity.

560

Yeah the cow itself that is a unity

of Different things sometimes working

561

in much different ways or even

oppositional ways to produce something.

562

That is a More complex more full unity

than simply a herd of cows in a field.

563

Yeah, so that's one example.

564

You want to hear the other one?

565

Yeah, that's good.

566

Cuz I'm gonna tell it to you.

567

Good Yeah, what if I'm like now I'm good.

568

We got it The other analogy or

illustration or metaphor whichever

569

term you want to use here Imagine a

lawn table and on one end is a large

570

bucket or maybe a large pile of random

Lego pieces So maybe you've got a pile

571

or a bucket of, 10, 000 Lego pieces.

572

And then the other end of

the table is a spaceship.

573

Maybe of 10, 000.

574

Do they make that many pieces?

575

No, probably not.

576

Like a Lego spaceship.

577

Yeah.

578

Okay.

579

Yeah.

580

I have no idea, but that

seems like that'd be huge.

581

It would.

582

So purpose of example, it's a Lego

spaceship model with 10, 000 pieces.

583

and of course all the pieces

are not the same, right?

584

Yep.

585

You've got different colors.

586

You've got different shapes.

587

You go different sizes.

588

So the bucket or the pile of Lego

shows diversity because the pieces.

589

are different.

590

They're not joined together.

591

so they show diversity, but there

still is a conceptual unity.

592

You can talk about a bucket

of them or a pile of them.

593

the second though, the, spacecraft

shows diversity in a deeper unity.

594

The pieces are all still different colors

and shapes and sizes, but because of

595

that and how they're placed, they all fit

together uniquely to create a spaceship.

596

So that's the two different

ideas of unity and variation.

597

The first is one that's a conceptual

unity only, one where the mind

598

groups the individual things together

even though they're distinct.

599

And the second is a functional

unity where each piece is not only

600

separate, but they're also connected

to each other in such a way that the

601

differences create something much

more than the mere sum of its parts.

602

Hmm.

603

Now which picture?

604

Describes reality.

605

Heraclitus says the second picture does.

606

Yeah.

607

he's picking up on the fact that

there does seem to be cooperation

608

and unity within the diversity.

609

Exactly.

610

That people, people work together and,

you think about trees and plants and

611

fields and forests and that kind of thing.

612

There seems to be some

sort of cooperation.

613

Right.

614

He argues that what's true of

a human body or a cow's body is

615

also true of reality as a whole.

616

Yeah.

617

That there is a oneness, but the

oneness works in spite of opposition

618

and different purposes or different

ways that things are, the diversity

619

of the elements within the universe.

620

So in that sense, I think he

makes a pretty good advance

621

on previous philosophy.

622

Yeah.

623

Cause the other guys

have pretty much just.

624

Said it's one it's water or it's wind

and he's trying to bring some nuance to,

625

well, there is a, a oneness in a sense,

but you got to account for the variance.

626

That seems like a pretty

significant advance in philosophy.

627

Yeah, I think so too.

628

And again, going back to the

Lego spaceship, the logos in

629

this illustration would then be

basically the instruction book.

630

Hmm.

631

Or the model of what that plane

or spaceship would be in the

632

mind of whoever designed the kit.

633

And then the instruction book is the

written communication of that the

634

revelation of that as it were Yeah

I like how you made a metaphor of

635

Legos for logos It's pretty good.

636

I hadn't thought of that.

637

That's pretty good.

638

Legos and logos is the name of

this episode Maybe we should

639

Guy picked Heraclitus in there

somewhere though Heraclitus in

640

his Legos of logos or something.

641

I like it.

642

I mean, I may, it's pretty, it naturally

pretty . I mean, it's a good, picture.

643

Yeah.

644

I didn't know they had Legos

back then though, but who knew?

645

Well, a lot of people don't.

646

Yeah.

647

. It's been crazy what archeology has

dug up in the past a hundred years.

648

Huh?

649

. Well, you want to talk about

the influence of Heraclitus?

650

Yeah, I'd love to, hear that,

especially, in, Christian thought.

651

We've talked a little bit about how

John picks up on this, tradition of

652

language related to logos, but Can you

give us an, an overall analysis and,

653

some of the things you're thinking

about as we're processing Heraclitus?

654

All right.

655

Yeah.

656

So I'm going to talk about the influence

on Greek thought, Roman thought,

657

Christian thought, and then give a

little bit of analysis at the end.

658

Sweet.

659

All right.

660

So Greek thought, he influenced

Plato and Aristotle, who would of

661

course influence Christian theology.

662

In particular, his idea of the realm

of the one would be taken over by Plato

663

and his hidden or better transcendent

world, the world of forms or ideas.

664

And in Plato's, understanding, the chief

and the ruling form was that of the

665

one, or it's sometimes called the good.

666

he also influenced Aristotle in

the idea of the four kinds of

667

causation, as we talked about.

668

And I think the idea of a final

cause being the ultimate purpose for

669

something is very much in line with,

probably influenced by Heraclitus.

670

Like the Logos being the

final purpose of the cosmos.

671

Yeah.

672

Now, there's also a school of thought,

and here we're starting to talk

673

about the Roman philosophy as well.

674

But there is a school of thought that

starts in Greek philosophy, it becomes

675

one of the two dominant streams in Roman

philosophy, and that is of Stoicism.

676

There is Greek Stoicism, but

again, it becomes even more

677

influential during the Roman Empire.

678

One of the things that

Heraclitus taught was that the

679

One operated out of necessity.

680

So this was deterministic.

681

All things were set.

682

So the Logos just was this rational

way that things worked together.

683

And there was really

no room for confusion.

684

Much in the way of chance or

free will is very deterministic.

685

Now, if that's true, then probably the

wisest thing to do is simply to accept

686

that and then live within the logos

of one's life as best you can without

687

getting too excited or worried about

things that you can't change anyway.

688

And could be argued as a pretty good

summation of the essence of stoicism.

689

Hmm.

690

many of the stoics will claim him as

Their founding father, as it were.

691

Yeah, I can, definitely

see that, connection there.

692

There's very little I know about Stoics.

693

And even the way that

we've used that language.

694

Like, somebody who's Stoic, They're

very, I don't know how you say it.

695

Unperturbed?

696

Yeah.

697

They, they just want to do things,

it's very black and white and they

698

want to do it the right way and not

let their emotions get involved.

699

Yeah.

700

And then we've already talked

about how the introduction of the

701

philosophical, Meanings of the logos

will influence Christian thought quite

702

a bit and it doesn't just stop at John.

703

Of course, one of the ideas that's going

to be carried forward into Augustine and

704

through that to the Christian theology as

a whole is this idea that there is this

705

logical pattern or idea in the mind of

God through which he creates the universe.

706

And that kind of goes

along with the same theme.

707

Finally, let's give a

couple of words of analysis.

708

what'd you think of Heraclitus?

709

It seems to be some pretty, significant

advances and at first was a little

710

tricky to understand the way that fire

was kind of the first principle there.

711

Right.

712

And, the concept of

logos is, a difficult one.

713

I still don't totally, I can't wrap my

mind around it, but it's interesting.

714

It'll be good food for thought to think

through the ways that the, biblical

715

authors pick up on that a little bit.

716

Yeah.

717

Seems like it seems like a

pretty significant figure.

718

It makes sense that we're touching on.

719

Yeah, I think so.

720

one of the ways I like to begin thinking

about how to evaluate these thinkers,

721

and by the way, I noticed when I

listened to or read people very often

722

giving a history of philosophy is that

they tend to shy away from evaluation.

723

And I think maybe because it muddies

the water, it adds to things, but

724

also it adds a subjective element.

725

Um, and they're, wanting to be

impartial about that and I get

726

that, but that's not where I'm at.

727

I wanted to understand things

in the, flow of thought and

728

what works and what doesn't.

729

So I think there's a lot here in terms

of advancing the idea of causation,

730

the idea of change, especially

understanding this idea of unity and

731

diversity and all that that implies

in the fullness of what true unity is.

732

at the same time, we have to remember

that this Greek philosophy, including

733

Heraclitus is a project in trying to

make rational sense of the world By

734

human autonomy and human reasoning alone.

735

So no revelation, no religious

dogma, no mythological elements that

736

you're inheriting, you're not basing

this or adding anything like that

737

to this, it's the human mind alone.

738

And I think the question I want to

come back to again and again, because I

739

think it's not only a fair question, but

the central question is, does it work?

740

Can you get to a philosophy?

741

that can justify itself and give warrant

for what his teaches on the basis of human

742

autonomy alone and human reasoning alone.

743

in that sense, I think he's found

deficient and for two reasons.

744

Number one, to have the To find

and convey truth about these things.

745

And that's what he's trying to do.

746

Two things have to be true.

747

Two things have to be true.

748

And you have to, I think, have warrant

to believe them within your own system.

749

First, that the universe is able

to be rationally understood.

750

And then secondly, that the human

mind is the right tool to be able to

751

actually rationally understand that.

752

And we talked about this before.

753

Do you remember we talked about how

when I was learning Hebrew, because

754

the letters are so different, I would

often just practice writing the letters

755

one after another and no random order.

756

I wasn't making words.

757

All I was doing was practicing letter.

758

Imagine if you take one of those

pages, if you had one of those, you

759

discovered upon at my desk maybe a

janitor when they're, know, cleaning

760

the office building where I'm working

or something, or my wife comes across

761

it and she doesn't know Hebrew at all.

762

And you have two pages.

763

One is a translation out of one of the

rabbinic writings of the Bible, a story or

764

a treatise, an essay, something like that.

765

And then the other page

is just my scribbling.

766

Not my scribbling, but

my practicing membership.

767

One of those has a meaning.

768

One of those tells a story or an argument.

769

The other doesn't, even though

they both had the same elements

770

of the certain letters involved.

771

One of the things that.

772

Heraclitus philosophy cannot establish

is that this universe we're in is

773

actually rationally understood.

774

That it means something

rationally, it's not just a theory.

775

Bits of information that aren't connected

to each other in any particular way

776

So he's making that assumption now

He does have this idea of the logos

777

being what ties it all together, right?

778

So the logos is the rational explanation.

779

So I'll give him credit for that.

780

That is an advance on most of the other

Philosophers we've looked at but at the

781

same time, where does that come from?

782

Yeah, is it just here?

783

If it's just here How do

we know that it's rational?

784

ideas, reasons normally reside in a mind,

but if you exclude the idea of a mind that

785

produced this, if you say that this is not

God made or manmade, it just always is and

786

was, then how can we have any competence

that that's anything more than a wish?

787

And I don't think he gives a good answer

for that or a reason for how you could

788

answer that according to his system.

789

Yeah, it's interesting that, in pointing

to how that is like Zeus, but also

790

unlike Zeus, he approaches the Logos

being some sort of rational personality.

791

he gets close, you know,

but then he backs away.

792

Yeah.

793

Well, I mean, that makes

sense too, because Zeus is a

794

scoundrel, but yeah, he's a jerk.

795

Yeah.

796

He's a superhero jerk.

797

No.

798

Um, all right.

799

The second thing, as I mentioned, so first

is that the universe is actually able

800

to be rationally understood because it

has a meaning that conveys that meaning.

801

And the second that the human

mind is capable of understanding.

802

If I run across a page in

Sanskrit, it might tell a great

803

story, but I can't decipher it.

804

My mind is not able to, it's not,

it doesn't have the right tools.

805

Does the human mind itself,

is it capable of understanding

806

and communicating this truth?

807

I don't know on Heraclitus grounds

that you had warrant for believing

808

that we are simply some particular

manifestation of the fire.

809

Yeah.

810

Why would I necessarily have

confidence that that fire is able to

811

understand true truths about reality?

812

Real truths about this universe that

we live in and that especially this

813

hidden element of the universe that we

can't see this secret fire as it were.

814

It's kind of goes back to the

very first philosopher we talked

815

about Thales, you know, he made

the same as everything is water.

816

Okay.

817

Then my mind is water too.

818

Yeah.

819

And your mind is water.

820

the same mind that said everything

is water is actually water.

821

So why should I trust some motion of

water within your mind that created

822

that statement as being the right one?

823

It's not even made to think or

come up with conclusions, related

824

to that argument in and of itself.

825

It's almost self defeating.

826

Yes.

827

I think the same problem arises.

828

Even more Powerfully after Darwin if

you believe that natural selection alone

829

unguided by God So not just evolution,

but it's totally unguided evolution

830

for the purposes of reproduction By

the mechanism of survival the fittest

831

then our minds the same minds that are

pronouncing that theory Also are simply

832

the product of that same, evolutionary

and biological activity Just like

833

every other organ of our body is.

834

So why should we trust it?

835

It's not designed to see true

to Zion to pass on his genes.

836

Those aren't the same thing.

837

Yeah.

838

And we talked about that

in a previous podcast.

839

there was one titled is

naturals and self defeating.

840

Yeah.

841

that's not to argue that

God could not use evolution.

842

It's to argue that natural selection

by itself, completely unguided, has

843

a problem with self justification

and being self defeating.

844

So that's kind of the same idea.

845

Now for the Christian, we believe that

there is a God who created the universe.

846

So a rational being created the universe.

847

It makes sense that then the

universe bears the marks, that

848

rationality and purpose, and we

believe humans are made in his image.

849

Therefore we have a mind that

operates in some degree like God.

850

It actually works to find truth.

851

Now, can we prove those?

852

Well, that's a different story.

853

Well, that's philosophy.

854

Yeah, that's right But I think my

point being so far I don't see that the

855

other path of denying revelation Or

trying to develop a philosophy based

856

on human autonomy itself Is working

Yeah, I mean in christian thought our

857

minds are designed with the building

blocks to be able to Seek and understand

858

answers to these kinds of questions.

859

Right.

860

And that's huge.

861

I mean, that's foundational.

862

Mm-Hmm, , that's okay.

863

Yeah.

864

We, we actually can start having these

conversations because we hold that God

865

has designed us to be able to have these

kinds of right thoughts and conversations.

866

So And apart from the idea of

proof, okay, put aside whether

867

we can prove that or not.

868

It's internally consistent.

869

Yes.

870

Whereas, if I believe my mind is water

or simply a manifestation of fire, then

871

I don't think it is consistent with

that to believe that then that mind

872

is able to find this kind of truth.

873

Yeah.

874

It seems like the, the question of

proof can get in the way a little bit.

875

Maybe.

876

If you're, if you're seeking

that, if, if that's what you need,

877

I don't know, maybe not, but.

878

Well, we talked about this a little bit

before in one of the other episodes.

879

Well, you can't prove either

way is what I'm trying to say.

880

That's kind of where I'm at now is I don't

believe any worldview can prove its most

881

basic premises or presuppositions, but

some of them have presuppositions, which

882

are internally consistent with the belief

statements they make, and some don't.

883

And I think that's how you have to

evaluate or adjudicate between those two.

884

Yeah, yeah, It is really amazing

Heraclitus's Conception of unified

885

diversity to me this is a guy

who's got an extremely Sharp mind.

886

and to be able to think in these kinds

of terms and to look and see okay.

887

Yeah, there is unity Yeah, there is

Diversity and those things are working

888

together Christian doctrine is gonna

pick up on that a thousand years later

889

and that The formulation of the Trinity.

890

Sure.

891

And we say that yeah, the unified

diversity in the world comes from the

892

mind of God who exists eternally as

a unified diversity of three persons.

893

so even that I'm seeing the way

that that is picked up in Christian

894

theology and we we get to it.

895

They're not from rationality alone, but

from scripture's revelation Yeah, but

896

you can certainly see the way that those

two things are working together because

897

a lot of the men who formulated that had

a lot of greek Philosophy embedded in

898

them because of their situation where

they were in the world So you see those

899

things working together not apart getting

to it from different perspectives,

900

but, Heraclitus he's approaching

some, pretty impressive things.

901

Yeah, I think so too.

902

I think so too.

903

It seems to me that the idea

of the Trinity encapsulates and

904

agrees with one of his main ideas,

that there is a unity that goes

905

beyond and depends upon diversity.

906

And maybe the Trinity is the ultimate

expression of that in some ways.

907

Yeah.

908

I'd like to unpack that

in a future episode.

909

That'd be fun.

910

Yeah.

911

The philosophy of the Trinity.

912

Might be a while if we're going

to keep going on the history.

913

Yeah.

914

We're still.

915

Yeah.

916

Maybe when we get to, early Christian

philosophy, maybe we'll do that.

917

That will be good.

918

All right.

919

Well, anything else about Heraclitus?

920

No, that's more than I thought

we're going to talk about.

921

So that's great.

922

And thank you for bringing him up

because, those of us who aren't

923

well versed in Greek philosophy,

he's not a common household name

924

like Socrates or Plato would be.

925

So, and he's not a disease and

he's not a disease, which is good.

926

Yeah.

927

And he had Legos and the

logos absolutely had Legos.

928

All right.

929

Thanks, Daniel.

930

My pleasure.

931

See you next time.