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007 - The Importance of Male Caregivers in Eating Disorder Recovery (with Kevin Dunn)

Episode 7 • 3rd December 2025 • The Other Side Of The Plate • F.E.A.S.T.

Episode 007

The Importance of Male Caregivers in Eating Disorder Recovery (with Kevin Dunn)

A conversation with Jenni Gaines and Laura Cohen.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Host:

Welcome to The Other Side of the Plate, brought to you by FEAST—Families Empowered and Supporting Treatment of Eating Disorders… Together we'll share personal insights, connect you with professionals, and point you toward helpful resources. And as we say at FEAST: We're here because we've been there.

NOTE:

The content contained in this podcast is not a substitute

for professional or medical treatment, and it may not represent

the views and beliefs of FEAST. Always consult a medical

professional for medical advice and treatment recommendations.

Jenni

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. Laura and I are very excited because we have an extra special guest with us today to talk about a topic that is really important, but you don't hear very much about it in the eating disorder world—and that is the role of male caregivers in eating disorder recovery.

I know Laura and I have a lot of questions, but what we're mostly excited about is just having a conversation today. And I'm going to give Laura the honor of introducing our guest.

Laura

This was one of the first people we wanted to interview and it's one of my favorite people I've met while working in the eating disorder field. It is Mr. Kevin Dunn. Kevin has been a volunteer at FEAST for right around eight years. So he's been a volunteer a lot longer than I have, and before I knew about Equip. He also works at Equip as the Director of Family Mentorship. I had the pleasure of actually working underneath him for close to four years.

He's a fantastic colleague and friend of mine, and by far he is the best person to have this conversation, so I'm really excited to jump into it.

Jenni

I'm excited too. Kevin, thank you so much for being here. We'd love for our listeners to get to know you a little better. Laura already described a little bit of your background with FEAST, but could you tell us about your current role and what led you into that role?

Kevin

Absolutely. And thank you for inviting me, Laura and Jenni. It's an absolute pleasure to be here and to speak with you and to talk a little bit about male caregivers. If any of your listeners are in a position where they want to learn more about caregiving, I hope that this conversation reveals a little bit about the male perspective.

My current position is Director of Family Mentorship at Equip. What that entails is leading a team of those with lived experience as caregivers. They are very talented people who specifically have that shared experience of lived expertise, and we come from all backgrounds. There are so many different careers and experiences, and it's actually a privilege to lead the team.

Here's why: I wanted to attempt to give back, and this position working in family mentorship at this particular organization allows me to lead a team that multiplies that effect. They're all seeking to give back based on their experiences and the wisdom that they've accumulated. Being in this position allows me to multiply the payback effect.

Kevin's Personal Story

Laura

I love that. Thank you. And now I'll get personal—I love when I try to get Kevin to talk personal. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your eating disorder journey.

The interesting thing about Kevin is, as I said, I've worked with him for years, and the times that I've really dug in and learned more about his true experience as a male caregiver, it has been so enlightening. I definitely am going to dig into that because I think your story and your personal experiences are something to not keep under wraps, especially in a podcast. I'm going to keep pushing you. I just think you have so much to give. So tell us a little bit about yourself, your eating disorder journey with your daughter, and your connection to FEAST.

Kevin

Thanks Laura. I'm a dad. I'm a husband. And I consider myself to be an intermediate guitar player—it is truly a passion. I only mention that upfront because playing the guitar has been very therapeutic for me as I've moved through this journey. I want to emphasize for male caregivers the importance of continuing in that learning process of what do you need in order to provide the most care and most effective care for your loved one.

A little bit more about me: I live in Northern California and I don't have a background in behavioral health or mental health. Our journey started eight and a half years ago when our daughter, just after her eighth birthday on a car ride home, asked me what would happen if she didn't eat her lunch.

I launched into all kinds of things based on what I knew about eating three meals a day. Looking back, that wasn't a lot, yet I tried my best. That was the beginning of our journey. The journey was with anorexia nervosa, restricting subtype, and a dual diagnosis of ARFID.

At times it was difficult—as many caregivers listening know, either you're starting the journey or you're far along your path. I made every mistake possible and I even invented a few. That has allowed me to see a clear pathway where I can speak with men in particular, because I'm willing to say I made all the mistakes.

I always speak with men about entering into the caregiving effort and this journey with humility. I needed to be humbled. I needed to understand that there were things I definitely did not know. At a certain point in many men's lives, you don't want to admit that you don't know something, because in our society, that seems to affect the way not only you view yourself, but the way others would view you.

Many men become that Mr. Fix-It. Something's wrong—come on in, fix it. And if you can't fix it, do your best to make it look like you're taking care of things. Well, with an eating disorder diagnosis, I was way out of my league.

I turned to what I thought was the most logical thing, which was: I'm going to read every book ever written about eating disorders. Along the path, I was doing some web research, ran into FEAST, and wrote to the then executive director asking for help and treatment options.

The note I got back was very important for me at that time. It shared that it's a very mired treatment landscape—there's not a lot of clarity for what you're experiencing. Resources on the FEAST website were offered, and that's where my learning journey really took off. I was reading the articles, ensuring that I was digesting the resources, going back to them frequently, sharing them with my wife.

That's where I developed a passion for ensuring you enter into this process in a very humble manner—understanding you have things to learn. Immediately I wanted to get involved with FEAST. I wanted to ensure that as I'm learning, I want to share what I'm learning. So I became a parent volunteer and worked on what at the time was the support lines and doing email responses to other caregivers. We were in the heart of the struggle at that time, but that was what I was doing.

I had taken a business that I had started—a video production business—and put that on hold because my wife was the primary carrier for insurance. Therefore, I became the primary caregiver. It had everything to do with my wife needing to work in order to maintain our insurance. That's how I moved into the role.

I was very proficient at it because I determined what's needed here is great organization, and I think I'm organized. It required a never-give-up attitude, and in my soul, I'm a DIY person. I prefer to do things myself and I don't give up. Those were some things that I brought to the table.

My association with FEAST grew and grew. There was a volunteer who one time said, "Hey, there's a lot of guys who volunteer at FEAST, and they're just very loosely organized. I don't even know if they know one another." So she brought us all together into a Zoom room and said, "Have at it, guys."

We talked about what we could do. There was a group who wanted to talk policy and how they could implement some revision in the treatment landscape through policy changes. I knew that wasn't in my wheelhouse. There were others who talked about offering support to caregivers who were receiving a diagnosis in their family, and I knew that was my wheelhouse. So I stepped forward and said I'd like to move forward with support and skill building, and that's what we did.

The current executive director, I think, was surprised a few months down the line that we had a name—the Men of FEAST—and that we were still meeting. It was a good surprise.

Jenni

I think Men of FEAST has become one of the most beloved programs and services that FEAST offers. Hearing you talk about it, it's easy to see why. You took the reins of it and made it into something that wasn't there before—something that male caregivers couldn't get anywhere else.

When you listed all of your personality traits—organized, never give up—not only did that lend you perfectly to being the primary caregiver for your daughter when she was going through the eating disorder, how lucky FEAST was that you took that want to give back and put it into the Men of FEAST program.

I feel really fortunate that through my work with FEAST—I was the volunteer coordinator when I met you through your volunteering and me supervising the volunteers—I truly did not have any idea how special Men of FEAST was until I heard you talking about it. I really wanted the other volunteers to hear about it and understand. When I'm recommending Men of FEAST to any male caregivers, they're going to get something really beneficial—support, skill building, lived experience wisdom and knowledge.

A thank you to you for everything that you have put into Men of FEAST. It's a legacy at this point, and it's ongoing. I really appreciate you for that.

Kevin

Thank you, Jenni. Appreciate it.

What Makes Men of FEAST Special

Laura

Jenni, I had a sticky note in my head of things he said and how I wanted to synthesize it, and you just did it. I was thinking about his temperament traits and how he used them productively.

I'm going to talk about Men of FEAST, but I'm going to do it a little bit differently because I have my own lived experience with Kevin and the men's support group.

When I was working at Equip with Kevin, there is a men's support group at Equip. The men's group—and I'm sure it's the same at Men of FEAST because it's the same idea—well, what happens in the men's group stays in the men's group. That's always been the way it is.

There was one day that Kevin decided that myself and another coworker were going to be allowed to sit in at the men's group. We are the only two women that have ever been to either the FEAST Men of FEAST as well as the support group at Equip.

I can tell you from my own lived experience, it is a very different place in the most beautiful way. I can't give details because what happens in the men's group stays in the men's group, but what Kevin has created has been such a safe place for men to be men. I run other support groups and it doesn't feel the same for the male caregivers to be in the other support groups.

A lot more f-bombs may or may not be thrown out at Men of FEAST—and that's okay. But you guys are just able to say things differently. Can you help the listeners understand what makes the Men of FEAST or any male caregiver support group a different place?

Kevin

I appreciate you recognizing what we've tried to create. What it is, is a place where men who are experiencing anger, experiencing fear, experiencing what I mentioned before—I'm no longer Mr. Fix-It because I can't fix this—there's some shame and guilt around that if you've defined yourself as Mr. Fix-It and you can't do this for your loved one.

They arrive with a lot of questions. They arrive with sometimes cameras off because this should be anonymous, right? We're not speaking about eating disorders, at least outwardly.

We see an opening up when anger is expressed and no one in the room bats an eye, because anger is part of the path. I think some men who may have taken steps on the treatment journey have been possibly pushed out of places when they express anger because "there's no place for that here." We allow a place for that. We allow a place for men to express that and show some fear—that "I don't know what to do next."

We are not prescriptive. We are not very directive. We help men understand that if you're going to make a difference for your loved one, make that difference first in yourself. Really shine the spotlight on what you need to do to become more effective.

It's not a selfish pursuit to say I need to change my behaviors and the thoughts that lead to actions, and understand that not every thought requires action. Some thoughts we should just let go. That's the space we've tried to create in safety, with no judgment.

There have been men who have expressed things that if they were to talk about that particular topic in a provider's office, it would not really go over well. I've been in those places. So when I hear some of those things, or when someone approaches with anger and even starts yelling, we accept that that is part of the path.

There's a lot of denial and resistance being expressed there, and it needs to get out. It needs to, for the sake of the person's family, for their loved one—let's let them express that. It's productive, although it feels quite regressive in the moment. It's very productive. So that's the space we try to create.

The Importance of Male Voices in Recovery

Jenni

I love that you've cared enough to create a space like that. I am a caregiver support group leader with FEAST and ANAD, and we do have male caregivers join us. I think they probably feel like they have to hold back a little bit because the majority of the people in the support group are moms, so it's a little bit different for them. Sometimes husbands are there supporting their wives, and again, they feel like maybe it's not the ideal place for them, but they're getting something.

That space specifically for male caregivers is just really special and important to have.

We hear mostly about women being the primary caregiver. You were the primary caregiver in your situation. But I think dads are sometimes left out of the picture, and I know they're sometimes also extremely involved in the treatment and recovery process. If we don't include them in this whole bigger picture and conversation, something's really lost. The potential for them to contribute to their loved one's recovery is lost.

From your perspective, I'd love to hear why you think it's important for us to hear those voices—the voices of male caregivers—and what changes when those voices are included in the recovery process.

Kevin

If you look at any challenge like an eating disorder, multiple perspectives add to the full picture that you're going to be able to work with and within. So if we negate someone's perspective because they're male or they're bringing some anger—and "this is typically caregiving, isn't that a female pursuit?"—if we hold those types of thoughts and carry them forward, we're negating a perspective that is valuable.

It might be misinformed, might not have all the valuable information necessary to be valuable in the moment, but beginning the process of recognizing the perspective is integral.

I feel that allowing the voice to be heard and having very brief conversations—if there's two caregivers—about observations is valuable. What did you observe? And then listening and asking a follow-up question: And how about you? What did you observe?

Then maybe continuing the conversation after the observations are discussed: Tell me, next time we face this situation, what would you be able to do? And then listening. And the third question would be: And now that I know what you would be able to do, what are you willing to implement? Because there could be a disconnect between what you feel you're able to do and in the moment what you can do.

That's not to put down moms, dads, caregivers of any gender. It's to have an understanding of: what do I need to do to step into support?

Including the voices of men can be effective because many men are very action oriented. They want to do something. If we stop them from doing something, we also move them to the side in the caregiving effort where their involvement is necessary. They should be allowed to make mistakes because we're all going to make mistakes. I made many. That's how I really accelerated my learning.

If we sideline them, we're really holding our loved one from the full recovery they could experience. Let's get the entire caregiving scenario—everyone involved. Multiple perspectives really aid the journey.

Men being very action oriented—I have always felt that our brains wire from actions upward, not from thoughts downward. We can have these deep thoughts about how we're going to proceed. I feel that in caregiving efforts, our brains wire based on our actions. So let the men get involved and make the mistakes, and we'll find that those neurons that are firing together as they're taking action begin to wire together.

Give some feedback when they do make mistakes. Allow them to go get the groceries, do the dishes—buy paper plates, guys—and let them make the errors along the way. Let them bring their voice to the table, even if it's expressed in anger. Not at the actual table—please don't use anger there—but metaphorically, maybe in the discussions you have with male caregivers, allow them to express a little bit of anger. Behind that anger is likely fear.

What People Get Wrong About Male Caregivers

Laura

So much was popping in my brain when you were saying that. I hear you saying men are fixers, men are action oriented, and women also tend to take over and don't want that, right? Men will be like, "Okay, tell me how to fix it," and you're just like, "It can't be fixed." There's so much bashing of heads.

I think it's so important, along the lines of what you're saying: What does each caregiver bring to the table? And being able to figure that out.

Kevin

And we're each going to approach it differently. That's good. The dialectic is very valuable—the dialectic being there's some opposing forces here, we have unique perspectives. Those are very valuable, and we don't have to resolve the tension between those two opposites.

What we need to do is apply the capabilities of each toward moving the recovery journey forward. We spend a lot of time trying to resolve those conflicts, and that emotion and energy, I feel, is more efficiently and effectively invested in: let's move recovery forward.

Laura

Totally. I even know in my situation, my husband would be resentful because I would take over. He was just like, "I'm out, I'm out." It took a while for even me to be like, okay, I'm good at this stuff—which may be 97% of the things that need to be done. But if he's really good at that extra 3%—and he was more than 3%, but let's say 10%—not to get upset about that, but utilize that 10%.

Because to your point, the grocery shopping... for us it was the levity. He was the fun one. Let him be the fun one. There's so much in those conversations.

Kevin

It's so important that if you go down while you're a caregiver—you're ill, you have something that takes you out of the picture briefly—it's so important that the other caregiver, if there is another one, is able to step in and be effective.

For me, it was two years into our journey where I broke a hip. I don't give up. I was hobbling around the kitchen with one crutch making meals and serving them because I didn't give up. At that point, I hadn't learned that lesson that you've got to share your Legos. You have to make sure the other caregiver knows how to do what you're doing.

That's a horrible example of how you can get yourself into a position when you push people away and don't allow them to get involved. Let the males get to the table so that they can learn from you if you're a primary caregiver. I made that mistake.

Jenni

I'm pretty sure I don't share Legos very well either, Kevin, if it makes you feel any better. I'm thinking back to my husband. We are opposites, so he has strengths that I absolutely do not have. It took me a long time to realize that.

I had a memory of when my daughter who had the eating disorder was little. She was very hard to settle down at night. My husband was the one who could get her and put her in a football hold, just hold her up close against his body so she couldn't flail around anymore, and she would just relax and go to sleep. That was not a power that I had.

In the same way—it wasn't frequently—but he did step in. When she was at her very worst, something about just sitting next to her dad... her dad being that safe place. I'm getting emotional even talking about it. I don't know that I brought him in as much as I could have.

Hearing you talk about how it doesn't have to be opposing forces, how you can take your strengths and use those, and take your partner's strengths and use those—for those of us who have a partner, we're very fortunate. It's a really difficult journey.

Kevin

Yes. And for males, just to your initial question, Jenni—what do the voices of the males bring? The males have a voice. I also want males to understand that if you're being welcomed to the table, make sure you're thanking the person who's been doing the primary caregiving and carrying this heavy load for such a long period of time.

If you want in, make sure that you show recognition that this has not been easy and they have carried and shouldered a lot of this burden. You thank them and adopt an attitude of humility—that "I'm here to learn, I'm going to make a lot of mistakes, but I do thank you. I recognize what you're doing."

Laura

So true, and goes such a long way. What do you think some people get wrong or don't understand about male caregivers?

Kevin

What I hear is a lot of "they can't, they won't, they don't." I always approach Men of FEAST with "they can, they will, they do." It's incumbent upon us—as those who've been on this path, and for providers in general—to understand they can learn, they can adopt skills and practice, they can and do help foster recovery.

I hear a lot of negative, and I think that for some males, that provides them an easy out: "You can't do that. Get out of my way." "You want me out? I'm out."

We're going to need them. A primary caregiver is a primary caregiver until you can't fill that role—illness or other demands. We need that secondary person.

There's a lot that should be offered to males. One thing that should be offered that I don't see being offered nearly enough is just the understanding: there is a place at the table. Come on in. Let's do our best together while we are at that table, and let's talk afterward. Let's huddle so that we can move forward together and use our alternate perspectives for the betterment of this particular path—for the enhancement.

What Male Caregivers Bring to the Table

Jenni

You gave so many insights. Even this far into my journey, I'm still learning. Is there anything else that you've noticed about what dads and other male caregivers bring to the caregiving role that you think is important to highlight? Maybe some things we aren't thinking about that could be helpful—unexpected things?

Kevin

The conversation topics I mentioned earlier—what are your observations, what are you willing to do, what are you able to do—are important. It's a good way to move forward without yelling at one another. If you know the ground rules of a conversation—that we are now going to have a conversation about the topic of the eating disorder, and we're going to talk about observations, what you're able to do, and what you're willing to do—I think men can be quite good with boundaries. If you lay the groundwork, they will accomplish the task.

If all of us have some ground rules for how we're going to converse—because this is going to be possibly a lengthy journey and we're going to have to have lots of conversations or hand signals for one another to convey information back and forth—let's set up some rules in advance and try our best to abide by them.

Also, men need to understand that if there's perfectionism as part of your Mr. Fix-It, let's go ahead and drop the veil on that right now. There's not perfection in eating disorder recovery, nor are you perfect. I'm not perfect. None of us are. We ought to start modeling that for our loved ones—that there's not perfect.

We've got to drop that veil on Dad or the male in the family: "They do everything well." Let's make sure that it's understood Dad or the male is learning also. Modeling some of that "I'm learning just like anyone else in a new situation"—that's what men can also bring, and it's something we haven't spoken about.

Humility, yes. But also modeling that imperfection is important because we're going to want our loved ones to learn skills. If you have modeled that you know it all already, they see that. If you admit that you don't know something, that is a flaw. But we want to encourage learning new skills. Implementing them is actually very productive on the recovery path, and it's okay. It doesn't come with guilt or shame.

Laura

So true. There were so many times I would say to my daughter, "I'm going to mess up. I messed up. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have done that." Those are such big parenting moments—to admit to our loved ones that we're imperfect and we're messing up in real time. I love that call-out.

Getting Aligned as a Team

Laura

My next thing I'm going to bring up—I think we could do five podcast episodes about this. So I'm going to bring it up, but we don't need to get into all of it. We will do other episodes about this because it's so important, and Kevin and I would see this in practice daily, hourly, minutely—is "minutely" a word? It is now.

Sometimes parents are partners. We work with a lot of co-parents—whether divorced, never married, separated—it doesn't matter. Different caregivers may live in different homes. I've seen some beautiful co-parenting in those situations. Sometimes parents and partners aren't on the same page with treatment or caregiving approaches. We see that all the time in households.

What suggestions do you have for at least starting to get aligned as a team?

Kevin

I love this question. You're right, we could talk not only all day during this podcast, but in many future episodes. I love the alignment question. I love the "same page" question. They are my favorites.

Not to get too etymological here, but "align" originally comes from the Latin "linea" and it just simply means "to line." I always interpreted it as: the lining needs to be toward recovery. It doesn't necessarily mean that caregivers or parents need to be in that same exact line, because the alternate perspectives are really valuable.

We put a lot of pressure on ourselves when we say "alignment." What really comes into play when we talk about alignment are the situation, the circumstances, the motivators, the consequences. Those need to be in alignment on that path toward recovery. But the parents or guardians—they don't need to be riding that same line. They could be off that line.

"Same page"—when I hear providers or advice that you should be on the same page with your partner, I don't know that we've ever been on the same page in this particular household, and I think that stands for many households. But there's value in that.

We put a lot of guilt on those who are not on the same page. I try to use the reference of: let's agree that we're going to be in the same library, or we're going to be in the same bookstore at least. We're looking for that opportunity, that book that will help us move forward together.

But "same page, same line, same sentence"—I think that's an ideal to strive for, but it's not often realistic. Again, we're seeking to resolve some dialectic that we probably don't need to resolve, nor will we resolve in the moment. We want to invest our energy and our time toward getting our environment and our consequences and our motivators lined up rather than our people.

The environment is an important alignment tool. But the people—if they're floating in the same bookstore, we're in a good place.

Laura

I love that. I love a good analogy. One line doesn't make up a book, right? You need to have many pages that make up a book. So it's okay if you're not on the same page as long as you're in that darn book.

Jenni

That is so good. I think it takes the pressure off. For anyone hearing, "Oh, I thought we were doomed because we're not on the same page"—hearing what you just said, Kevin, is going to make them feel a lot better and feel like they can work with what they have and align on things without being perfect. I love that explanation. I feel like there needs to be an article written about it.

Kevin

I go back to stoic wisdom. Epictetus: really manage the things that are within your power. Everything else—people are not within your management power. Although if we're managers in a company, we like to think they are, but people are not within your management capability.

Things—we can line those up and make sure we're supporting recovery. Caregivers really managing what is in your power today—other items, we're going to have to navigate those.

Essential Skills for Male Caregivers

Laura

Here's another topic. Most parents don't enter this journey with the skills to handle the extreme behaviors and distress that eating disorders bring. There are times when, as that male caregiver—you talked about that anger piece, you alluded to that in conversation. This definitely comes up when the male deals with things differently than the female. I'm not being sexist here, I'm being generalized, because that's not always the case.

What skills have you found to be especially important for dads or male caregivers to learn?

Kevin

I love talking about skills. One I've already mentioned—and maybe a lot of people wouldn't think of this as a skill, but I do think when you practice this and begin to implement, it's a tool. As you practice, it becomes a skill, and that is humility. Understanding there are things that you don't know. There are the unknown unknowns. You want to become knowledgeable so that by knowing more, you can do a little bit more. Humility is one of the skills.

Radical acceptance—I think that's important for men who hate the reality of an eating disorder diagnosis and what it's done. Selfishly, for them, to them, and to their family, and to their loved one of course. I take that concern about what it's done for them and help them understand that this hating of reality is spinning your wheels in terms of your emotion, your energy, your capability for problem solving.

It's okay to deny and resist, but at some point we will come to the acceptance that change is necessary. Hating the environment and the reality is misplaced energy and time.

Distress tolerance—knowing that the skill itself is not called distress suppressant. It's not called distress removal. It's called distress tolerance for a reason. Men and all caregivers have to become more proficient understanding this is likely going to get more challenging.

When I see distress in my loved one that, through my actions of holding firm boundaries in a loving manner, seems to be accelerating that distress, I have to be okay with feeling my own distress rather than tearing those boundaries down, because the boundaries are important.

Validation—I've heard a number of men in groups that I've run say, "I don't do validation. I was never validated. I had to do it all on my own and no one ever..." We're in a new circumstance. Let's go back to the humility piece: it's time now to learn. It's not time to call on the past and say "I was never validated." I understand that and I hear that. Let's move forward with what your loved one needs.

The last item, tied to validation, is emotions. Men aren't comfortable with emotions being expressed, for the most part, especially when they're being yelled at or there's a lot of escalation in tears or screaming. Men just want to end that.

What we have to understand is emotions are valid communication. There's something there that is being brought forward, and we want to listen. We may not be comfortable listening, but we need to listen rather than trying to shout it down. We want to listen. That's part of validation.

"I can see this is extremely upsetting to you"—and moving forward from that point, rather than trying to silence that valid communication. It gives us insight. It allows us to approach an understanding of our loved one. We can never fully be there in that understanding, but we can approach it. Learning how to validate is vital.

Jenni

Thank you so much for sharing those skills. They definitely don't come naturally for me either. I can only imagine for men how hard it would be to access some of that. What you said about practice is so important because I didn't know how to do any of these things. Prior to my daughter's eating disorder, I considered myself a really good mom.

One thing I remember feeling immediately was a loss of confidence. I no longer felt confident. I imagine for dads and husbands watching their loved one, their child go through this—they're powerless to "fix it" and they have that fixing reflex—they're probably feeling scared. You mentioned earlier that underneath the anger could be that fear.

For anyone listening now—a dad, husband, or other male caregiver who is feeling that fear and not really sure how to help but wants to help—would you be able to recommend even tiny baby steps they could take that could make a difference and build from?

Kevin

Sure. Be present. That's the first step. Be there. Don't leave the room. Don't plan the work trip when a challenge food is about to be presented that you know is going to be vital to the next month in eating disorder recovery. Cancel that work trip. Make a change in plans. Be present.

And don't opt out when given the opportunity. If you hear, "You wouldn't be any good at this anyway. Why don't you just leave"—stay present. That's the first step.

As you mentioned, Jenni, baby steps are important. The next step would be: after being present, be available. Presence is important—being in the room—but being available is integral.

When I say available, I mean a DBT skill of a willing smile, a half smile. There's nothing funny here, but just a pleasant face and willing hands when you're speaking. Maybe not in anger, but just understanding that this could be showing someone: I'm open. I want to receive information.

The third step is going to be very difficult. It's active listening. It is mirroring someone's language, mirroring someone's behavior. It is asking clarifying questions—not disagreeing, because that's not the intent. The intent is to clarify: What is the point that you are making? What is the message that you want to convey to me?

Active listening can be a challenge, and it requires that your mouth be closed. For many men who want to solve, this could be challenging. But being available and remaining present and validating—those are the steps you can begin.

That third step could be a hurdle. When we hear "validating" as men, we start to think, "I'm going to hear something that's very emotion-oriented." Maybe for some men, alter the name or introduce it in a different way: this is a way for you to gain information that you can then utilize as you are becoming a more effective support for your loved one. Don't you want that information?

Laura

So many little golden nuggets. I'm hearing the biggest thing: be in the room, don't walk out of the room. So many times my husband wanted to be there so bad, but he would walk out because he wouldn't know what to do. And even as the female caregiver, I was like, "Fine, get out of here." That's not fair on us either because we just want to get it done as the female caregiver. But no—stay in the room. Be present. Show up.

Kevin

And let the male practice. He's going to make mistakes.

There's an old story about a college professor teaching a photography class. He said to one half of the class: "Plan the perfect picture. Make sure you study lighting, know your lens ratios, understand what setting you're going to use. Plan the perfect picture, and at the end of the term I want you to produce that picture."

To the other half of the class, he said: "Just go out and take a whole bunch of pictures. Have fun. Study angles. Just take a lot of pictures. Just do it."

At the end of the semester when the photos were compared in terms of quality, the half of the room that went out and practiced and made mistakes and took a lot of pictures with the intent of maybe getting some good ones—they actually produced as a final project a more quality-oriented image than those who did a lot of study.

In eating disorders: practice, practice, practice. You're going to make mistakes. That's part of the journey. It's not failure—it's feedback for the next time that you implement.

The Most Important Advice for Male Caregivers

Laura

So true. What advice or insight do you find yourself offering male caregivers most frequently? If you could sum it up into one thing, what is it?

Kevin

I would have to say the most valuable thing that I learned was DBT skills. Now, I know there's many of them—

Laura

You just answered a question for "one" with 900 skills.

Kevin

Let me sum it up and bring it to one place. Okay, fine—you learned DBT skills. What did that do for you?

What it did for me is help me understand that I should pause before I act—and sometimes I shouldn't act. I should simply pause. That's what DBT skills allow: that opportunity to just take a breath and determine: Is that thought that I'm having actionable? Should it be?

Not every thought is a fact, and not every thought requires action.

That's the one thing that can help men on this journey—so they don't have the shame or guilt of many of the actions they've taken. They understand that if I stay present in the room without taking the action of yelling or throwing something, I'm still gaining valuable information. If I do that, I'm so guilt-ridden that I need to leave.

The pause is the one thing. Make sure you learn a little bit about DBT skills so you know the value of pausing.

Laura

Just for the listeners who have no idea what Kevin's talking about when he says DBT: Dialectical Behavior Therapy is what DBT is. It's a set of skills that I call "life skills." I'm sure we can put something in the show notes—a basic primer about them.

Jenni

Definitely, yes, fully agree—very helpful. Things they don't teach you in school that you don't come into the eating disorder journey with, and that can be so valuable. At least the men in my life are very quick to react, and I think the DBT skills adding that pause in there so they can respond instead of reacting can make such a huge difference for everyone.

Kevin

I always ask men: If you have a family emergency, who do you want showing up? Do you want a first reactor, or do you want a first responder?

Let's be responders. When we're reactors, things don't go well for others and for ourselves.

What's the difference between a reactor and a responder? It's someone who's learning, who is practicing their skillfulness. A first responder doesn't show up on the scene ever in a hurry, lacking the capability to assess a situation. A first responder—we depend on them to show up, be calm, use your knowledge, use your skill, assess what needs to be done, implement.

A first reactor just flies off the handle and is typically ineffective.

That's one big emphasis in Men of FEAST: Let's be first responders.

Laura

Love it.

Jenni

I love that too. For anyone thinking, "Wow, I don't think I'm doing any of these things right now"—none of us did either. That's why we're here to hopefully add some information that'll make it a little bit easier for you.

Silver Linings from the Journey

Jenni

Eating disorders are so hard on the entire family. In our family, it felt like a dark cloud came over our home and it was going to stay there forever—at least during parts of the journey. But there were some unexpected silver linings for me and for our family, even though it doesn't feel possible that anything good can come from such a scary and difficult experience as your loved one having an eating disorder.

I'm curious, Kevin—what positives have come out of the eating disorder journey for you?

Kevin

One of the things that's come forth from the eating disorder journey is more honest communication. Not perfect, but much more honest. When you're dealing with teenagers, communication can be challenging. Honesty is something that has resulted from the eating disorder.

Another thing of value: I've become much more introspective than I was previously. I think I was fairly introspective before, and I don't mean navel-gazing—just looking at yourself for the sake of looking at yourself. It's really studying your behavior, studying the effects of your behavior and your words.

I always know that your words may be forgotten. It's your actions and how you make someone feel that are really remembered. I have a greater sense of that after the eating disorder, because I said a lot of things and did a lot of things that were not effective. I understand now there's only so much I can do to resolve what was done. I can ensure that people know that when I'm present, what I intend by my presence, and hopefully that affects their feelings about my presence.

One of the other things this has provided me is scope on others who are currently moving through treatment or just received a diagnosis. I love laughing with them. I love supporting them. I love talking about skills with them. And then, wherever that relationship ends as a mentor, I love watching them walk a little bit farther down their path in life.

That for me has only come because of an eating disorder. I wasn't on that journey before. I was on a different journey with many other careers. This journey is so meaningful in comparison. It has caused a complete pivot for me. There's such meaning in what I do—not because of me, but because I know there are needs being met just simply by being present for someone.

Laura

I can attest to everything he just said because I have seen it firsthand. This community needs you. We'll continue to need you and thanks you for everything you've given to it—at FEAST and beyond.

A Message of Hope

Laura

One quick, fast question. If you could leave our listeners with a message of hope or encouragement, what would it be? Concise, Kevin.

Kevin

Concise. If it's male caregivers that we're seeking to reach, the message would be: It's going to be okay.

And "okay" starts with humility—understanding you can't fix it. It's okay to be humble and say, "I need to learn. I need some support, and I need it now."

Laura

So true. Again, thank you so much for everything you brought to this. I know this episode will help. We always talk about our help being duplicatable, and that's what we're doing here.

Kevin

Thank you, Laura.

Jenni

Thank you so much for being here and for everything that you've offered. We really appreciate it.

Just want to let you all know that our next episode is going to be on another hard topic: managing negative body image during recovery from an eating disorder, and how parents can help manage that. We hope you'll join us next time, and thank you again for listening.

Laura

Thank you. Thanks, Kevin.

Kevin

Thank you.

Closing

Thank you for joining us at the Other Side of the Plate. If today's episode gave you hope or guidance, we invite you to explore more resources and peer support at feasted.org. Remember, you are never alone. For more conversations of hope and help for families facing eating disorders, please join us for our next episode.