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Attracting Tourism, Talent, and TV to Greater Sudbury
Episode 415th April 2025 • Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism • Tourism Excellence North
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In this episode of Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism, host Karen Peacock sits down with Meredith Armstrong, the Director of Economic Development for the City of Greater Sudbury. Meredith highlights how tourism is integral to Sudbury's economy, from attracting talent to attracting TV and film productions. The conversation covers the impact of the Municipal Accommodation Tax, the success of the Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot Program, and Sudbury's resilience and growth amid geopolitical challenges.

  • 01:13 Meredith’s Background in Tourism, Economic, and Workforce Development
  • 03:51 Sudbury's Economic Outlook Amid Geopolitical Challenges
  • 06:54 Tourism Excellence North (and Other) Resources For Tourism Businesses
  • 10:02 How the Municipal Accommodation Tax Funds Tourism Infrastructure
  • 14:04 Sudbury's Diverse Tourism Economy
  • 18:57 Trends and Opportunities in Sudbury's Tourism
  • 20:54 Sudbury's Growing Film Industry
  • 23:21 COVID-19 Impact and Recovery in Sudbury
  • 24:11 Tourism Trends and Challenges
  • 25:53 Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot
  • 31:00 Francophone Community and Immigration
  • 33:15 Talent Attraction Opportunities and Challenges
  • 38:53 What Meredith Loves About Working in Tourism
  • 41:01 Meredith’s Most Memorable Visitor Experience
  • 44:51 Next Episode Preview

About the City of Greater Sudbury 

  • Invest Sudbury website - investsudbury.ca
  • Discover Sudbury website - discoversudbury.ca
  • Move to Sudbury website - movetosudbury.ca
  • City of Greater Sudbury municipal website - greatersudbury.ca
  • Discover Sudbury on X - x.com/sudburytourism
  • Discover Sudbury on Facebook - facebook.com/SudburyTourism
  • Discover Sudbury on Instagram - instagram.com/sudburytourism
  • Resourceful City of LinkedIn - linkedin.com/company/11432947/admin/page-posts/published
  • Invest Sudbury on X - x.com/resourcefulcity

About the podcast

Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is a podcast for tourism operators and industry stakeholders featuring experts who understand what it means to run a tourism business or organization here in Northern Ontario. Through casual conversations, you’ll learn about cutting edge topics like AI marketing, Cruise Ship Tourism, and trends that are shaking up the industry. Plus, you can tune in  while driving or doing chores.

For even more  insights that’ll help you grow your business, organization, or community, connect with Tourism Excellence North, which is part of Destination Northern Ontario:

If you like podcasts, DNO has another one called Destination: Northern Ontario. Season 1 is for people thinking about buying a tourism business, and Season 2 has helpful advice for new tourism operators. 

 Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is an initiative of Tourism Excellence North and is recorded on the traditional territories of the Anishinaabek and the Mushkegowuk. It is hosted by Karen Peacock and produced by Storied Places Media with support from Erica Richard, Naza Obasi, and Gillian McCullough.

Transcripts

Meredith Armstrong:

We used to say if you haven't been to Sudbury lately, you

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:

haven't been to Sudbury because so much

has changed and so much has improved.

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Karen Peacock: Welcome to Let's Talk

Northern Ontario Tourism, a podcast

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:

for tourism operators and industry

stakeholders featuring experts who

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:

actually understand what it means

to run a tourism business or tourism

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organization here in Northern Ontario.

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I'm Karen Peacock.

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In this episode, I'm joined by Meredith

Armstrong, the City of Greater Sudbury,

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director of Economic Development.

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She may be leading the economic

development department, but her background

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is in tourism and she sees how it plays

an important role in everything her

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team does from attracting talent to

attracting TV and film productions.

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In this conversation, we unpack all the

ways tourism put Sudbury on the map.

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Welcome, Meredith.

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I am so excited to have you here

in studio with me today, to

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do this podcast conversation.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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Meredith Armstrong: I'm happy to be here.

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Karen Peacock: It's a great pleasure.

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This is great.

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Meredith Armstrong: Mine too.

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Karen Peacock: How about

we just dive right in?

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Can you tell us a little bit about

your background, and experience

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within the tourism, economic,

and workforce development sector?

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Meredith Armstrong: Absolutely.

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I think tourism's really

in my, in my blood.

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I grew up in Stratford, Ontario, which

was pretty much built on tourism.

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Karen Peacock: Yes.

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Meredith Armstrong: Uh, at least since

:

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And, I worked at the Stratford Festival.

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I worked for York Street Sandwiches.

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One of my first jobs was delivering

sandwiches on a three wheel bike.

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So really understanding how

tourism can be, uh, really part

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of the fabric of a community.

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Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

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Meredith Armstrong: Um, after university,

I lived in Canmore for a few years

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and worked in the hotel industry.

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Karen Peacock: Wow.

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Meredith Armstrong: Uh,

front desk and group tour.

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So again, sort of another level

of the importance of how the

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whole system works together.

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Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

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Meredith Armstrong: And then I

came back to Ontario and I went to

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Fleming College for the Ecotourism

Management program, which was a really

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incredible experience in Halliburton.

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And, at the time, uh, ecotourism was

a really interesting concept, and

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I had an opportunity for a FedNor

internship in Sudbury, and I knew

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I had to get that because there

weren't a ton of really, sort of,

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purpose built positions in ecotourism.

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And it was hosted by the

City of Greater Sudbury.

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It was a really wonderful experience

working with an organization called

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Partners in Eco Adventure Tourism or PEAT.

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And, yeah, it was a wonderful

group of people, and really helped

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me grow my roots in Sudbury.

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Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

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Meredith Armstrong: Uh, it's a perfect

size for, uh, there's lots going on.

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You know, we're nearly 180,000 people

now, but it's small enough that you

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say hello to people on the street and

you're gonna see people, you know,

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in the grocery store on Saturday

morning and that kind of thing.

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So, working within the City of Greater

Sudbury on the tourism portfolio,

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working with, you know, Science

North, Dynamic Earth, and all those

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small and medium sized folks that

sort of round out the experiences.

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And then in the last few years, I've

taken on more of a broader role within

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economic development that includes tourism

and culture, film and television, but

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also sort of industrial land and mining

supply and service and that kind of thing.

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So, firmly, my heart is with

tourism because, you know, it is

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what makes a city really livable.

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So yeah, workforce development is

about talent retention and attraction.

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And so really can't pull any one thread

without pulling the rest of them.

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So I'm with, I'm still with the City

of Greater Sudbury in the economic

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development team and working on a

little bit of everything these days.

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Karen Peacock: Oh, wonderful.

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Okay.

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Can you tell us a little bit

about the economic outlook for

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the City of Greater Sudbury?

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Meredith Armstrong: That's a

really pertinent question these

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days we are in the midst of let's

say geopolitical challenges.

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Karen Peacock: Are we ever.

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Meredith Armstrong: Um, and I'm

really pleased to say that some of the

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prognosis for Sudbury is pretty positive.

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The Canadian Chamber of Commerce put out

a study on municipalities and how they

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would be impact impacted by potential

tariffs in the US or on Canadian products.

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And out of 41 communities

Sudbury was 41st in terms of the

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vulnerability to the tariffs.

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Karen Peacock: Wow.

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Meredith Armstrong: So, in a lot

of ways, the community's done a

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ton of work over the last several

decades on diversifying, globalizing,

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export readiness, particularly on

the mining supply and service side.

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So we are bracing for impact.

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I'm not saying things are gonna be

easy, but I think Sudbury has a really

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fascinating history of weathering

many different storms economically.

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So I think the outlook outside of

that conversation is also positive.

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We are a growing city.

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We're the, you know, the one

with the growth and population

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across Northern Ontario.

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We have a very diversified economy.

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So, I think things are relatively

positive going forward.

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Karen Peacock: That's

really great to hear.

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Really, really great to hear.

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Okay, so you just mentioned the Canada

Chamber of Commerce study that's just

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come out or report, and you said we're

41st, how does the rest of Ontario

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look in comparison then to Sudbury?

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Meredith Armstrong: Well, I'll

tell you, we're in close contact

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with the five cities of the north,

including North Bay, Timmons,

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Sault Saint Marie, and Thunder Bay.

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We work really closely in many ways.

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Tourism is a, I think probably the

shining example of cooperation across

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the region, but economic development too.

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We have lots of conversations.

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If you take a community like Sault Saint

Marie, for instance, um, some of their

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steel production related companies are

looking at 30 to 80% impact, 30 to 80%

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of their business is in the States.

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So that's incredible job losses potential.

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Lumber is going to be hit really hard.

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I think, even now, what we hear in the

morning can change by the afternoon.

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So I think the message I'm hearing from

the federal and the provincial folks

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is we know you have to go by what's

written, you have to be ready for change.

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Um, I think those communities

that have a lot of business in the

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States, the border communities, the

Sault Saint Maries, the Windsors

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of the world, are really impacted.

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And the rest of us are going to

be impacted at the consumer level,

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but I think time will tell, right?

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Every day seems to be different.

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So sort of keep calm

and carry on right now.

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Karen Peacock: Yeah.

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And I think that's a great

message for all of us, right?

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Don't get too caught up or

anxious about what's going on.

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Meredith Armstrong: Right.

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Throw in a provincial election

and then a federal election.

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So yeah, we would just have to

kinda keep our eye on the ball.

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Karen Peacock: Yeah, definitely.

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Okay, let's move into a

discussion around tourism.

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You've been a long time supporter of

our Tourism Excellence North program.

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Can you tell us about your

involvement in the program and

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why it's so important to you?

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Meredith Armstrong: I actually

think it's a really important

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segue, because for me tourism is

a greatly misunderstood industry.

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Sometimes it's very difficult

to touch and to understand.

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We know the impact of tourism

in many ways is immeasurable.

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We know the contribution of GDP,

we don't produce widgets, so it's

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not always tracked in the same way.

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The Tourism Excellence North program,

I fundamentally believe that equipping

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small businesses to increase their

capacity to offer better products,

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better experiences, has a long-term

benefit for all communities.

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So the concept of the TEN program

in teaching a man to fish, in terms

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of having the strategy and knowing

what the market is looking for.

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I always thought that was

a fantastic opportunity.

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I was lucky enough to go on one

of the earliest, best practice

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missions to Traverse City, Michigan.

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And I'll tell you, I guess that was 2017.

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Karen Peacock: June, 2017.

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Meredith Armstrong: We still talk

about that trip, and the benefits of

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that, not only the learnings that we

gain from being there, but the network

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of people that were on the trip.

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So, I'm a huge proponent.

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I think it's worth mentioning that

there's another program that we've

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been successful with over a long time

too, which, um, has been known as

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the Northern Ontario Exports Program.

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And this has been, we've talked about

this before, it's focused on the

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mining supply and service sector.

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And the idea of that program

too is basically giving a

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small business a life coach.

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Way back in the day when there was this

new thing called social media, we used

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to hold these like afternoon seminars

and there'd be some sandwiches and

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you'd hear someone talk about this thing

called Twitter and then you'd go off.

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And especially if you are a small

business owner, you're chief cook and

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bottle washer, you don't necessarily

have a lot of capacity to take what you

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learned and implement it without someone

holding you accountable or checking in.

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And so the idea of both of those

programs is matching with that person,

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sort of your accountability buddy,

but an expert in the field, right?

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So when it comes to being strategic,

doing the right marketing, over time,

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and I really like that the TEN program

has different levels and modules.

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So you meet the business where they're

at, and I should say business, but I

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also think it, it's important to note

that this includes organizations,

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nonprofits, attractions, because it takes

everyone to create all those different

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experiences that people are looking for.

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Karen Peacock: Yeah.

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Agreed.

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I will also share with our listeners

that you, Meredith, have been part

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of the original pilot of the Tourism

Excellence North program and sat on the

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management committee and really helped in

building the foundation of the program.

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And now you're with us again

sitting on the advisory committee

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and really, um, providing guidance

and knowledge and insight.

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So it's been so great to have you along

the way in the development of the program.

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The City of Greater Sudbury has been

collecting a Municipal Accommodations

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Tax for a number of years, so can you

tell us how the city has structured it

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and what are the, some of the projects or

benefits that are being supported by it?

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Meredith Armstrong: The Municipal

Accommodation Tax or MAT tax, it's

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often known, it was actually the

province that provided the opportunity

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for Ontario municipalities to enact.

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They basically give you the permission

as a municipality to implement taxes.

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So in 2018, Sudbury City Council

approved a MAT tax of 4%.

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So fall 2018 or so, we

got the program going.

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It wasn't too long before

we were hit by COVID.

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So the great thing about Sudbury's

accommodations industry is we weathered

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the storm of COVID relatively well

compared to lots of other communities

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because we're very heavily business

focused when it comes to hotel rooms.

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There's leisure there too, but there was

lots of business going on despite COVID.

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So we built up a bit of a

nest egg in the revenues.

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And the other thing that the province does

is legislates the structure of the MAT.

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So, the legislation says that the proceeds

of the tax net the administrative costs

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of the program need to be split at least

50% going to an eligible tourism entity.

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So in Sudbury, that was recognized

as the Greater Sudbury Development

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Corporation, that's our economic

development corporation.

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It's an arms length agency, 18 member

board, that has a mandate of providing

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guidance and input on economic

development and tourism is part of that.

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So the GSDC has been a really

fantastic group to work with.

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There is a tourism development committee

that is under the purview of GSDC.

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And so it has representation from

hoteliers, attractions, Science

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North is on there, um, restaurateurs,

retailers, culture, that kind of thing.

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And they provide a really engaged

group that helps us figure out

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how best to invest the dollars.

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And then on the municipal side,

council, as part of budget decides

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where that's going, and in Sudbury's

case, it is providing support for

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the large projects, including an

event center, which is in the works.

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Shovels in ground later this year.

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So right downtown.

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And so, the GSDC is thrilled about that

because it's key infrastructure for

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tournaments, sporting events, business

conferences, that kind of thing.

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So, that's a big chunk of it.

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When it comes to, we have what's

called the Tourism Development

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Fund, and it's available to private

sector as well as public sector.

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And there's various streams.

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We've done some really interesting work.

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Kivi Park has been a beneficiary,

when it comes to infrastructure.

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Science North, the Go Deeper project at

Dynamic Earth, which is the expansion.

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We have a film sponsorship stream

actually because film and television is

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a big part of business in Sudbury, and

that generates a ton of hotel rooms.

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It also generates, you know,

awareness of the community.

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I mean, we couldn't wish for something

better than Shoresy and Letterkenny.

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I mean, they, they have a global fan base.

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Uh, apparently Australians just love it.

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Karen Peacock: Really?

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Meredith Armstrong: So we've had

folks who travel to Sudbury to

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see where those things are made.

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Anyway, so we've been able to sponsor

some of the smaller productions

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to come north and to build our

crew base, that kind of thing.

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We have a stream in there for bid

proposals, so if we're bidding

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on something big, sometimes it

costs money to bid on something.

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Very large.

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It helps us with all the pieces

that put us in a place to compete.

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But the primary goal of the Tourism

Development Fund is to take a business

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or an organization with a great

idea for a product or experience

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or a new way of marketing, and

put some wind in their sails.

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And I think that fundamentally

fits very well with the idea of the

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Tourism Excellence North programs.

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Karen Peacock: It really does.

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And, foundationally, it's

about business development.

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Meredith Armstrong: Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Karen Peacock: Through tourism.

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Okay.

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What does the tourism

economy in Sudbury look like?

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You know, you've touched upon a

few examples from film to Science

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North to Kivi Park, but can you

share with us how it's made up or

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diversified, and then is the community

in support of tourism overall?

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Meredith Armstrong: It's

an age old question.

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So I think at the beginning I was

talking a little bit about how I think

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the general public doesn't always

have a good understanding of tourism.

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And, for us, tourism excellence

is absolutely everything.

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Your experience from how you found out

about a destination, what your experience

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was in finding a hotel, seeing cool

things to do, great Instagram content,

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to when you stop for gas the people who

helped you were really friendly, there

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were great selection of restaurants, uh,

you know, nice places to go for a run.

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You know, those kinds of,

all of those elements.

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And in Sudbury, I have found in my time

here, sometimes it's the local audience

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is the hardest to convince, and it's the

visitors who bring that new enthusiasm.

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Like, you have such a beautiful

community here, because as we all

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know, Sudbury has a history of

not feeling so much like that.

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Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

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Meredith Armstrong: So, you know,

we used to say if you haven't been

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to Sudbury lately, you haven't

been to Sudbury because so much has

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changed and so much has improved.

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I mean, we have 330 lakes

within the city limits.

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Over the last few years, our international

students and our newcomers population has

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grown significantly, and we have a whole

range of new restaurants, new grocery

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stores that are culturally, you know,

focused, and so I think that is very

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visible to people, um, that's associated

largely with newcomers and immigration,

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but there's some benefits to the visitors.

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So, Sudbury's tourism economy,

generally speaking, just over

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half of our visitors coming in are

visiting friends and relatives.

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Good old VFR.

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We get, uh, lots of folks coming in

and those are not always seen, right?

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Like if you're staying with family,

maybe you're not generating hotel room

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night, but during your visit you'll

probably go to Science North or go

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out for dinner or go shopping and

that's part of the tourism economy.

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As I mentioned, business

travel is really important.

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It's the reason we have hotels.

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We have a few new hotels

actually in the works.

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We have some really great properties.

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You know, we are a hub for

Northeastern Ontario when it comes

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to, I've mentioned mining supply

and service, but also healthcare.

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And of course lots of folks

come, they do their Costco run

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and they stay for the weekend.

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I mean, these, you know, we

don't look a gift horse in the

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mouth when it comes to Costco.

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So, I think it's an interesting and

pretty diversified tourism economy, and

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it's not the main driver of Sudbury as

a community, but what I always say is,

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what makes a place great to visit is

also what makes it a great place to live.

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So we always count tourism as an

economic development activity.

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You can't do talent attraction

without great tourism.

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Karen Peacock: So, so true.

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And so even though the community may

not be that aware of what tourism is

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and how strong and vibrant and what

an impact it has within the City of

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Greater Sudbury, I think we all still as

a community support it, would you say?

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Even without kind of

knowing what all of it is?

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Meredith Armstrong: I mean, I think

you could really go back to the late

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seventies when things were really

bleak and there was a really wonderful

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group of committed individuals who

started talking about Science North.

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And I think that probably turned the

tide in a lot of ways for Sudbury

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and how it saw itself as a community.

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And it is fundamentally

a tourism attraction.

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It's also sort of like the most wonderful

community center you could ever wish.

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If you've ever been someone who's

taken a toddler to do something

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local, you know, on a Saturday,

you also have that perspective.

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But I think people travel a long way

to come to those kinds of attractions.

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And I think generally Sudbury

residents appreciate that.

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And I think it's the northern lifestyle

we always appreciate, and that's

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also, it's a tourism offering, right?

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You can be on a lake in

minutes, you can go for walks

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in nature, very close to home.

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And so that's really, I think

that's core of our offering.

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Karen Peacock: I would agree, and I said

as much at the downtown master planning

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committee a few weeks ago, that, you

know, to me one of the ideal things

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about Sudbury is that we have a wonderful

downtown, and only to get better.

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And we also have such close proximity

to our rural natural landscape.

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You can go from the downtown to that rural

area within, you know, 10 minutes, less

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depending on where you are, and enjoy a

great lake, a walk on a trail, et cetera.

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And I think it's one of the

beautiful things about Sudbury

330

:

and what attracts visitors here.

331

:

Meredith Armstrong: Yeah, for sure.

332

:

Karen Peacock: What trends

within tourism is Sudbury best

333

:

situated for, do you think?

334

:

Meredith Armstrong: That's, again,

something lately that we've been

335

:

talking a lot about because of the

stuff that's going on with the U.S.

336

:

You're seeing a lot of media

attention on Canadians and making

337

:

their upcoming travel decisions.

338

:

And in a lot of cases we're

seeing people look again at home.

339

:

You don't have to go anywhere, you can

stay in Canada, you can stay in Ontario.

340

:

And Sudbury has always been an excellent

destination for a rubber tire market.

341

:

We're only four hours north of

Toronto and the GTA, you know, London,

342

:

Kitchener isn't too much farther

than that, Eastern Ontario too.

343

:

So, I wouldn't call rubber tire

necessarily a trend, but I do think

344

:

lately we can capitalize on that interest

to explore what you've got at home.

345

:

And we're also sort of the gateway

to northern communities, right?

346

:

We work really well with folks in

this part of the world and you can

347

:

build some fantastic itineraries.

348

:

I mean, for a long time I've been part

of the Georgian Bay coastal route,

349

:

which is a sort of case in point,

early stage product development effort.

350

:

We're not far from Temiskaming

Loop, those kinds of things.

351

:

So I think the idea that you don't

have to go far, Sudbury is very

352

:

well positioned to seize on that and

together, in collaboration with our

353

:

partners, we'll be pursuing that.

354

:

When it comes to other areas of focus,

I mean, culinary tourism, again, after

355

:

so many years, is it still a trend?

356

:

But I do think we have some great

offerings, uh, for folks who are

357

:

looking for delicious experiences.

358

:

I think indigenous tourism, you know,

I've been a big part of the Indigenous

359

:

Tourism Ontario group for years now.

360

:

And the potential there is huge.

361

:

And I think quintessentially that's

those the, you know, the original

362

:

storytellers and the original experiences.

363

:

And so talk about authentic.

364

:

I mean, I think there's really

huge potential there too, so.

365

:

Karen Peacock: Yeah, our

original guides, right?

366

:

Can you tell us, you mentioned a

little bit about filming and of

367

:

course Shoresy and, uh, Letterkenny.

368

:

Can you tell us about the

history of filming in Sudbury

369

:

and where it sits today?

370

:

Meredith Armstrong: Sure.

371

:

I, you know, it's funny looking

back, there are some cult films, cult

372

:

Canadian films that have something to

do with Sudbury here and there, right?

373

:

Bruce McDonald's made some films.

374

:

But I think one that people would remember

early stage would be Men With Brooms.

375

:

I, that's what came to mind for me.

376

:

So that was the first cult film

with a very low budget, that was the

377

:

first sort of production that came

in that used services and things.

378

:

But I would say another really key

point was in:

379

:

Film Studio set up the studio here in

Sudbury, and NOHFC has a film credit

380

:

that actually supports productions on

their, what we call the northern spend.

381

:

So the more they can spend by hiring

folks locally, using local services,

382

:

the more they can access that fund.

383

:

That's been a game changer.

384

:

We wouldn't be here really without that.

385

:

And then over time we've had

some really big productions.

386

:

V Wars was one of our largest ever.

387

:

Hallmark films.

388

:

Those are some great job opportunities.

389

:

So over that, say 15 years or so,

we've built up a really strong crew

390

:

base in Sudbury, but also I would

say across northeastern region.

391

:

So you can come to Sudbury with an

idea and sort of a small group ready

392

:

to do a production and find experienced

local people to work on the crew.

393

:

A lot of it is location driven, but

we've got the studio space, we've got

394

:

craft, we've got, you know, carpenters

and all those kinds of things.

395

:

So that ecosystem is stronger

now than it ever has been.

396

:

And I think, you know, as I

said, Letterkenny and Shoresy has

397

:

been a really wonderful thing.

398

:

Shoresy in particular because Sudbury

plays itself rather than, you know,

399

:

subbing in for New York or we've got one

of those downtowns that can be elsewhere.

400

:

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

401

:

Any community.

402

:

Meredith Armstrong: That's right.

403

:

So, yeah.

404

:

I really like film because

again, it's, I mean, talk about

405

:

diversifying your economy.

406

:

It's a long way from our mining

roots, but it's brought in creative

407

:

workers and added to our vibrancy.

408

:

So, yeah, I love working

with the film industry.

409

:

Karen Peacock: Wow, fantastic.

410

:

So here's another question.

411

:

I mean, we've touched

a little bit on COVID.

412

:

Is the City of Greater Sudbury, is it,

or has it been rebounding since COVID-19.

413

:

Meredith Armstrong: Uh, so if you looked

at our labor market numbers, we have

414

:

fully recovered the jobs lost during COVID

by, you know, statistical information.

415

:

Karen Peacock: Great

news story right there.

416

:

Meredith Armstrong: As I mentioned, our

accommodation sector I would say still

417

:

had challenges but wasn't necessarily

hit as hard as other destinations.

418

:

Uh, the fact that our phone rings

within the economic development team

419

:

regularly with site selection folks

looking at new hotel properties.

420

:

You know, you don't build a hotel

without a heck of a lot of research

421

:

into the market and the feasibility.

422

:

So the fact that, you know, I think

that's a really good indicator.

423

:

I think it's changed how people travel,

and so I think there are things that are a

424

:

challenge for Northern Ontario as a whole.

425

:

I think how people make their

decisions has changed, right?

426

:

We, there was a long time

where we focused on our booking

427

:

engine for hotels and packaging.

428

:

And I find for us, it's not necessarily

the way most people wanna travel.

429

:

I think there's a certain level of

stumble upon, I think people want to

430

:

discover things as they go , and having

ready made tourism experiences has always

431

:

been the crux of the matter for tourism.

432

:

You know, it's very expensive for

a small operator to stand by a lake

433

:

with a fleet of canoes hoping someone

wants to come for a two hour paddle.

434

:

I think there is the desire

for that, but the seasonality

435

:

has always been a challenge.

436

:

The numbers aren't necessarily always

consistent, and I think that was a

437

:

preexisting challenge, but COVID made

that a bit tougher, really, because people

438

:

wanna know what they're getting into

and maybe they make decisions closer to

439

:

their departure date in some ways, which

can make it harder for an entrepreneur.

440

:

Karen Peacock: So not planning

out so much in advance anymore.

441

:

And if more people are traveling

by road to get to where they

442

:

are, it makes it easier.

443

:

Meredith Armstrong: Right.

444

:

Pack up a bag and go.

445

:

We are not Venice, or, you

know, we're not Paris, where

446

:

you're, this is a bucket list.

447

:

We just aren't, and I think we, not

just Sudbury, but I would think Ontario,

448

:

a lot of our destinations suffer from

trying to be all things to all people.

449

:

And so finding the niche and

working it is, I think, the secret.

450

:

Karen Peacock: Okay.

451

:

Great.

452

:

Talking a little bit about workforce

development, can you tell us about the

453

:

Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot

project, which Sudbury took part in?

454

:

Meredith Armstrong: Yeah.

455

:

The, I think the Rural and Northern

Immigration Pilot program has been a gift.

456

:

It's a program of Immigration

Canada, and the pilot program we

457

:

geared up for it in 2018, 2019.

458

:

It started in 2019.

459

:

We really got it going sort of 2020, 21.

460

:

And Sudbury alone has welcomed

2,700 newcomers to our community.

461

:

Karen Peacock: Incredible.

462

:

Meredith Armstrong: So that's our

candidates as well as their families.

463

:

A lot of them came with spouses and

kids, and actually our surveying more

464

:

recently, sorry, uh, sort of within

the first three years, indicates

465

:

around 93, 95% of them are still here.

466

:

Karen Peacock: Really?

467

:

Meredith Armstrong: Uh, so

it's been a really good.

468

:

So the whole point, it's

economic immigration.

469

:

The candidate needs to have a permanent

job offer, in this first pilot, and the

470

:

intention to reside in the community.

471

:

And the exciting thing is Immigration

Canada recognized the success of

472

:

the model, which was based on an

Atlantic Canada experience a few years

473

:

ago that was also made permanent.

474

:

So they've just launched the Rural

Community Immigration Program.

475

:

So it's RCIP.

476

:

And there's also a Francophone

Community Immigration program.

477

:

So those are also pilots.

478

:

We're still, we're part of this

one, we're actually gearing up now.

479

:

We expect it to launch sort

of late spring, early summer.

480

:

And it will continue to help us attract

people who intend to stay and have a

481

:

job and wanna be part of the community.

482

:

So it's been, uh, yeah, huge.

483

:

Our last census showed like 4% growth

in Sudbury, which is, you know, for

484

:

Northern Ontario that's significant.

485

:

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

486

:

It truly is.

487

:

Especially, you know, for many

years our population was stagnant

488

:

and potentially declining.

489

:

So now we're seeing it grow.

490

:

Meredith Armstrong: That's right.

491

:

And so I mean, international students

have been an important part of that.

492

:

For the first few years, they

became a really important pool

493

:

to look for candidates because

they often go into permanent jobs

494

:

coming out of post-secondary.

495

:

But now we're seeing folks

coming for the program.

496

:

The whole point is that in Canada,

the immigration gateways are generally

497

:

Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, and

people get to those cities and stay.

498

:

And all kinds of great rural

and northern communities all

499

:

across Canada need new people.

500

:

And we know we have very low

unemployment, so there's lots

501

:

of jobs there that need help.

502

:

So, it's ticking a lot of boxes for us.

503

:

Karen Peacock: No kidding.

504

:

So how are you, how does the

program manage to redirect people or

505

:

recruit them to Sudbury as opposed

to having them go into Toronto?

506

:

Meredith Armstrong: So because it's

focused on jobs, a lot of the work

507

:

is done because that individual's

looking for a specific job.

508

:

In the program, we have to identify our

priority sectors and in this iteration

509

:

of the program, it will be very much

focused on the employers as a gate

510

:

for the candidate to come forward.

511

:

So what it does is give the

candidate a community approval for

512

:

a pathway to permanent residency.

513

:

So there's, I mean, immigration

is incredibly complicated.

514

:

There are different paths to

gaining permanent residency or PR.

515

:

This one basically gives you a path,

uh, I don't wanna say fast track

516

:

because it's not necessarily faster

than other pathways, but it does

517

:

provide a real solution for those

who have the criteria met and might

518

:

not fit within another pathway.

519

:

So, so far, there are newcomers

looking for any opportunity.

520

:

So we haven't had to

do a ton of marketing.

521

:

We have recently launched a campaign

called Move to Sudbury, and so a lot

522

:

of it is targeting newcomers, but it's

also targeting anyone who's not from

523

:

here who wants to come and live here.

524

:

So, um, we're trying to make it easy

for people to see themselves here.

525

:

So everything from, you know, where

to live, what neighborhoods are

526

:

like, school boards, real estate,

healthcare, all of those things

527

:

are trying to put it in one place.

528

:

And I can tell you the tourism assets

are crucial to doing a good job of

529

:

that campaign because that lifestyle,

like all tourism assets that help

530

:

us promote the talent attraction.

531

:

Karen Peacock: Right.

532

:

It's quality of life, it

really boils down to.

533

:

Meredith Armstrong: I always said, it's

a picture of a bicycle with a bottle

534

:

of wine and a baguette in a basket.

535

:

Like there, that's what, you

know, it's like a stock photo.

536

:

But we've got, like, I've had

people ask, are those stock photos?

537

:

And like, Nope, that's how it looks.

538

:

Yep.

539

:

You can go for a walk at sunset on a

lake and we just take it for granted.

540

:

But so when it comes to workforce

development, because Sudbury has such low

541

:

unemployment, workforce is top of mind

for almost entirely our whole team and

542

:

the Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot

program has provided a tool in a broader

543

:

toolkit for working with employers,

connecting them to the right people, and

544

:

helping to grow the economy that way.

545

:

Karen Peacock: Wow, really interesting.

546

:

Okay, I think we've just covered

how Sudbury's population and

547

:

workforce has grown through this.

548

:

Is there anything else

you wanna add to that?

549

:

Meredith Armstrong: I think it's

worth noting that we are also

550

:

recognized as part of the Francophone

Community Immigration Pilot.

551

:

So that's focused on Francophone

individuals working with

552

:

Francophone employers.

553

:

Uh.

554

:

You know, we have a very

strong Francophone culture

555

:

and community here in Sudbury.

556

:

Other communities in Northern Ontario

also have the program, and I'm

557

:

interested to see how that transpires.

558

:

Like we take, we play a key role,

obviously, but I was mentioning how

559

:

international students have spurred

new grocery stores, new restaurants.

560

:

I've always been fascinated by how

Sudbury's Francophone community is

561

:

all around us, but not super visible.

562

:

You know, Place des Arts, which is

our multi-use facility downtown, was

563

:

really important to sort of stake that

presence of the Francophone and the

564

:

Franco-Ontarian culture in Sudbury.

565

:

We don't have a really great

Franco-Ontarian restaurant or bakery, you

566

:

know, if you want tarte au sucre, you

have to know somebody who's making it.

567

:

I mean, Italian restaurants, we've

got lots of those and there's lots

568

:

of, um, but I just think, wouldn't it

be interesting if that spurs some new

569

:

offerings, if it comes off successfully.

570

:

The numbers are smaller than

the Rural Community Immigration

571

:

Program, but the potential is

there to work with that community.

572

:

So we're pretty excited.

573

:

Karen Peacock: Yeah, absolutely.

574

:

Can you share for our listeners

what percentage of the

575

:

population is Francophone?

576

:

I know it used to sit around 33?

577

:

Meredith Armstrong: Depending on how

you look at it, without having the

578

:

latest census data in front of me, yeah.

579

:

I mean, I think 26 to 30%.

580

:

It's funny because when you ask

folks if they are Francophone,

581

:

you get different answers, right?

582

:

There's lots of people who speak French

with their family at home, but probably

583

:

don't conduct their business in French.

584

:

But if you get on a bus or you go to the

mall or you go to a restaurant, we know

585

:

at any given time somebody's gonna be

having a lively conversation en français.

586

:

So, yeah, I think generally we about

a third would identify as Francophone.

587

:

Karen Peacock: Okay.

588

:

Thank you.

589

:

What remains a top priority for

the City of Greater Sudbury in

590

:

attracting people to Sudbury?

591

:

So I guess in terms of jobs and in

growing the population, what does the

592

:

City of Greater Sudbury see as sort

of the main need for recruitment,

593

:

or where's the greatest skill gap?

594

:

Meredith Armstrong: As we develop the

framework for the new, the Rural Community

595

:

Immigration Pilot, we're actually gonna

have to formalize priority sectors.

596

:

I would say in mining supply and

service, you often hear that Sudbury

597

:

has a higher per capita population

of very specialized engineers,

598

:

which I always think is interesting.

599

:

You know, we have over 300

companies in the mining supply

600

:

and service space in Sudbury.

601

:

There's about 14,000 people working

in that sector, and you'll hear

602

:

a lot about the different jobs.

603

:

A lot of them are highly

specialized, highly technical.

604

:

Uh, I would say healthcare

is another, like everyone.

605

:

We are actually doing pretty

well when it comes to family

606

:

physicians, but there's still a gap.

607

:

Um, you'll hear a lot about personal

support workers, nurses, medical staff.

608

:

And then of course, we have been very

lucky to have an international student

609

:

population who are some of the most

hardworking, practical folks who will do

610

:

anything to just stay here, work hard.

611

:

You know, I always think

we're very lucky to have that.

612

:

These are people who are often going to

school, often living in houses with lots

613

:

of other people, and doing a lot of work.

614

:

And sometimes they are engineers

or they're very highly educated

615

:

in their home countries.

616

:

I know of more than one mining supply

and service company where they've

617

:

been known to go to some of our large

retailers and introduce themselves to

618

:

folks working on the floor and find out

that they are, you know, highly qualified

619

:

at X, Y, Z, and get them into jobs.

620

:

I mean, that's not the norm, but those

kinds of interactions happen too.

621

:

So I would say, yeah, healthcare, not

just mining but mining supply and service,

622

:

which is a pretty broad array of jobs.

623

:

And then hospitality.

624

:

Yeah.

625

:

So I mean, hotels have a heck of a

time getting everything from management

626

:

to house housekeepers these days.

627

:

And restaurants.

628

:

Karen Peacock: There still remains

a real labour shortage there.

629

:

Meredith Armstrong: Absolutely.

630

:

Yeah.

631

:

Karen Peacock: So labor shortages

have been ongoing for a number of

632

:

years and especially within the

tourism and hospitality industry.

633

:

And we, we've known, you know, that

there was challenges coming forward,

634

:

but not just within the tourism sector.

635

:

It has been within different sectors.

636

:

What are the challenges in recruiting

and retaining staff within Sudbury?

637

:

And maybe if you can touch upon,

you know, things like living wage

638

:

accommodations because you know, we

know that that's a huge challenge.

639

:

Work-life balance.

640

:

If you can maybe touch upon those.

641

:

Meredith Armstrong: Sure.

642

:

I think a strength that Sudbury has

is a pretty accessible, affordable

643

:

standard of living, but that

depends on where you're coming from.

644

:

So I am reminded that we often

compare ourselves to Southern

645

:

Ontario, so our houses are cheaper.

646

:

I think our average home price,

more recently, was about $434,000.

647

:

But if you're looking for a house,

you're not necessarily going to easily

648

:

find a house for that kind of cost.

649

:

And if you're coming from Northern

Ontario, that's more expensive

650

:

than where you're coming from.

651

:

So I just, I put that within context,

but it's still cheaper than where

652

:

the bulk of our provincial population

lives, which is Southern Ontario.

653

:

Work-life balance, you are not

gonna spend 90 minutes on a

654

:

highway commuting to and from work.

655

:

Like, that's just, you know, I was

talking to someone the other day that was

656

:

complaining about a seven minute commute.

657

:

Well, let's keep it in perspective.

658

:

I think housing is top

of mind for everyone.

659

:

We have a very low vacancy rate

when it comes to rental properties.

660

:

That's really important because

people who are coming to Sudbury.

661

:

Um, many, especially if they're younger

or coming from further away, they're gonna

662

:

rent something before they buy a house.

663

:

So not being able to find, uh,

apartments, that's top of mind.

664

:

We call it the missing middle.

665

:

We really don't have a lot.

666

:

So the city actually

has a housing strategy.

667

:

We work, uh, economic development

works closely with our development

668

:

team, planning, building services

to make sure we're doing what we

669

:

can to reduce the barriers and

help get projects off the ground,

670

:

multi-residential projects as well.

671

:

When we're recruiting, um, often,

especially through the immigration pilot,

672

:

and post-secondaries and other jobs,

when they come with a family, a spouse

673

:

and kids, often it's easier to see the

retention because as anyone with a family

674

:

knows, once you've put down roots, it

tends to, you meet people through

675

:

your kids and all that kind of thing.

676

:

We've learned a lot through our physician

recruitment work over many, many years.

677

:

It's really a personal touch.

678

:

So, you know, city tours, finding

employment for a spouse when one

679

:

is a doctor or a nurse practitioner

or a primary healthcare provider.

680

:

Schools is a huge thing too, so really

customizing how you would speak to those

681

:

individuals and how you help them sort of

see themselves reflected in the community.

682

:

Yeah, so I think we've really learned

that there's about a two year window.

683

:

So if you see that they have made it

through the first two years, the first

684

:

two winters included, generally we

see that people stay for a longer term.

685

:

Karen Peacock: So there's

some stickiness to it.

686

:

Meredith Armstrong: Yes.

687

:

Karen Peacock: That's great.

688

:

We're getting close to the

end of our conversation.

689

:

I'd like to ask you though, what do you

like most about working in tourism and

690

:

working in the role that you're in now?

691

:

What do you love about it?

692

:

Meredith Armstrong: I have often

said that tourism is like, they used

693

:

to use it for the Peace Corps, but

the toughest job you'll ever love.

694

:

I, you know, I think when tourism

is done well, it can change lives.

695

:

And there's not a lot of other industries

that can say that the same way.

696

:

A really amazing experience you have

on a trip can change your perspective,

697

:

change your life, that kind of thing.

698

:

And when it's done well with

the whole, you know, taking the

699

:

village and doing that, it can make

a really interesting community.

700

:

I love working with people who could

see themselves in that industry.

701

:

They have the vision, they have

the attention to detail, and

702

:

they wanna do it really well.

703

:

Those are just really incredible humans,

I think when they get it all right, and,

704

:

um, I think tourism is one of the things

that makes a community really resilient

705

:

because those are dispersed jobs within

many small organizations and businesses.

706

:

It's not like a big warehouse

run by, you know, one of those

707

:

billionaires that can just make a

decision with a stroke of the pen.

708

:

And so a strong tourism industry,

while it can be impacted by things

709

:

like COVID and SARS way back in the

day, it can also rebound in a way.

710

:

And we've seen communities all

over the place sort of remake

711

:

themselves with tourism involved.

712

:

So I just think it's a

fascinating industry to work with.

713

:

And like I say, as I get into other areas

of economic development like mining,

714

:

like development, I really come back to

the core pieces that make our community

715

:

amazing and their tourism assets.

716

:

Yeah.

717

:

So I think I just see it as an

underpinning and I'm just committed

718

:

to helping people understand,

who aren't usually in this

719

:

conversation, or in that realm.

720

:

When they see and when they get it, they

have a new appreciation for how important

721

:

the industry is, and we keep fighting the

good fight when it comes to getting the

722

:

attention that that industry deserves.

723

:

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

724

:

Great.

725

:

One more question.

726

:

I'm curious, what is one of

your most memorable visitor

727

:

experiences that you've had?

728

:

Meredith Armstrong: Wow.

729

:

That's a great question.

730

:

I mean, there have been some

really interesting experiences.

731

:

Years ago, I was invited to take part

in a program with Global Affairs Canada

732

:

to a region in Peru, up in the Andes.

733

:

And the idea was that they were taking

Indigenous communities in areas that

734

:

have been very reliant on mining and

where the mine was maybe not going

735

:

to be there forever, and helping

them understand how to use tourism

736

:

as a way to pivot their economies.

737

:

And this is sort of like

almost pre-tourism, right?

738

:

Like explaining what it is, and

with the group I was with, we had an

739

:

opportunity to go way up in the Andes.

740

:

I mean, in one valley where we were, there

were 37 different dialects of Quechua.

741

:

Karen Peacock: Wow.

742

:

Meredith Armstrong: So like, the old

ways were still the ways of doing things.

743

:

And we had an experience of

being welcomed by this group.

744

:

They didn't even speak Spanish, you know,

like digging a hole in the earth and

745

:

building the traditional pachamama, like

the oven, and sharing what they had.

746

:

And just sitting outside surrounded by

mountains with this community of people.

747

:

Who really had nothing to gain

other than just being completely

748

:

welcoming and open to learning.

749

:

And that was a pretty

incredible experience for me.

750

:

And seeing that they were interested in

what we had to say about how what they

751

:

were doing is a tourism experience.

752

:

And with some thoughtful tweaks

and additions can be a product that

753

:

you could charge money for, and

yet don't lose the authenticity

754

:

and the meaningful way of doing it.

755

:

For me, that was sort of fundamentally

the sort of philosophy behind

756

:

tourism that was pretty memorable.

757

:

Karen Peacock: It sounds really memorable.

758

:

That sense of place that

being able to tell this story.

759

:

Meredith Armstrong: You can't do

that anywhere else in the world.

760

:

Like, it's that spot in that

moment with those people.

761

:

And that's why you can't underestimate

the power of that experience.

762

:

Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

763

:

Yeah.

764

:

Okay.

765

:

I've asked you a lot of questions, so

I'm gonna, I'm gonna turn it over to you.

766

:

Is there any final thoughts or

anything I haven't asked you that

767

:

you might like to comment on?

768

:

Meredith Armstrong: I think one of the

things we didn't talk about when it

769

:

comes to workforce is, I think there's

an opportunity to recognize that for

770

:

generations of Canadians, first jobs

were jobs in the tourism industry.

771

:

And, you have said before, I think every

person out there should, at some point

772

:

in their lives and their careers, make

a bed, clean a toilet, serve a meal,

773

:

greet people they don't know, have

those interactions because the learning

774

:

about humanity, the humility it gives

you when you're doing a good job, the

775

:

honor in a job well done, no matter what

that job is, I just think people forget

776

:

that most of us, without even realizing

it, have had a tourism experience

777

:

on that side of the interaction.

778

:

And these are good jobs.

779

:

I mean, my own experience in

these kinds of jobs, working front

780

:

desk, working on a boat on the St.

781

:

Lawrence, like these were incredible

experiences when I was young.

782

:

It helped me see different parts of

Canada and grounded me in how people are

783

:

and how we should be with each other.

784

:

So I think there's something

powerful about that.

785

:

Karen Peacock: Some real

intrinsic values and principles.

786

:

Meredith Armstrong: Absolutely.

787

:

Karen Peacock: That we learn as humans.

788

:

Meredith Armstrong: Yeah.

789

:

Keeps you humble.

790

:

It's sort of like, think of

those, um, where they put the boss

791

:

of the company like in shipping

and receiving or something.

792

:

I think everyone should have to

do, should have to experience that.

793

:

Okay, it's time for your placement as

a housekeeper in a hotel or something.

794

:

So I just think, I can think

of a few folks who would

795

:

benefit from that experience.

796

:

Karen Peacock: That's great.

797

:

Uh, okay.

798

:

Well, thank you so much

again for coming in person.

799

:

This is, it's wonderful to share the

space and it's been a great conversation.

800

:

It's lovely to have you.

801

:

Meredith Armstrong: Absolutely.

802

:

My pleasure.

803

:

Thanks, Karen.

804

:

Karen Peacock: Next time on Let's

Talk Northern Ontario Tourism, I chat

805

:

with Justin Lafontaine, co-founder

of the Tourism Innovation Lab, an

806

:

incubator for tourism businesses.

807

:

We chat about the Spark program

and how it has helped Northern

808

:

Ontario tourism businesses get

seed funding and mentorship.

809

:

Follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcast

to make sure you don't miss it.

810

:

Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is an

initiative of Tourism Excellence North and

811

:

recorded on the traditional territories

of the Anishinaabek and the Mushkegowuk.

812

:

It is produced by Storied Places

Media with support from Erica Richard,

813

:

Naza Obasi, and Gillian McCullough.

814

:

I'm Karen Peacock.

815

:

Thanks for listening.

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