In this episode of Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism, host Karen Peacock sits down with Meredith Armstrong, the Director of Economic Development for the City of Greater Sudbury. Meredith highlights how tourism is integral to Sudbury's economy, from attracting talent to attracting TV and film productions. The conversation covers the impact of the Municipal Accommodation Tax, the success of the Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot Program, and Sudbury's resilience and growth amid geopolitical challenges.

• 01:13 Meredith’s Background in Tourism, Economic, and Workforce Development
• 03:51 Sudbury's Economic Outlook Amid Geopolitical Challenges
• 06:54 Tourism Excellence North (and Other) Resources For Tourism Businesses
• 10:02 How the Municipal Accommodation Tax Funds Tourism Infrastructure
• 14:04 Sudbury's Diverse Tourism Economy
• 18:57 Trends and Opportunities in Sudbury's Tourism
• 20:54 Sudbury's Growing Film Industry
• 23:21 COVID-19 Impact and Recovery in Sudbury
• 24:11 Tourism Trends and Challenges
• 25:53 Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot
• 31:00 Francophone Community and Immigration
• 33:15 Talent Attraction Opportunities and Challenges
• 38:53 What Meredith Loves About Working in Tourism
• 41:01 Meredith’s Most Memorable Visitor Experience
• 44:51 Next Episode Preview

About the City of Greater Sudbury 

• Invest Sudbury website - investsudbury.ca
• Discover Sudbury website - discoversudbury.ca
• Move to Sudbury website - movetosudbury.ca
• City of Greater Sudbury municipal website - greatersudbury.ca
• Discover Sudbury on X - x.com/sudburytourism
• Discover Sudbury on Facebook - facebook.com/SudburyTourism
• Discover Sudbury on Instagram - instagram.com/sudburytourism
• Resourceful City of LinkedIn - linkedin.com/company/11432947/admin/page-posts/published
• Invest Sudbury on X - x.com/resourcefulcity

About the podcast

Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is a podcast for tourism operators and industry stakeholders featuring experts who understand what it means to run a tourism business or organization here in Northern Ontario. Through casual conversations, you’ll learn about cutting edge topics like AI marketing, Cruise Ship Tourism, and trends that are shaking up the industry. Plus, you can tune in  while driving or doing chores.

For even more  insights that’ll help you grow your business, organization, or community, connect with Tourism Excellence North, which is part of Destination Northern Ontario:

• Website - tourismexcellencenorth.ca
• Facebook - facebook.com/DestinationNorthernOntario
• Instagram - instagram.com/destinationnorthernontario
• LinkedIn - linkedin.com/company/destinationnorthernontario

If you like podcasts, DNO has another one called Destination: Northern Ontario. Season 1 is for people thinking about buying a tourism business, and Season 2 has helpful advice for new tourism operators. 

 Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is an initiative of Tourism Excellence North and is recorded on the traditional territories of the Anishinaabek and the Mushkegowuk. It is hosted by Karen Peacock and produced by Storied Places Media with support from Erica Richard, Naza Obasi, and Gillian McCullough.

We used to say if you haven't been to Sudbury lately, you

2

haven't been to Sudbury because so much

has changed and so much has improved.

3

Karen Peacock: Welcome to Let's Talk

Northern Ontario Tourism, a podcast

4

for tourism operators and industry

stakeholders featuring experts who

5

actually understand what it means

to run a tourism business or tourism

6

organization here in Northern Ontario.

7

I'm Karen Peacock.

8

In this episode, I'm joined by Meredith

Armstrong, the City of Greater Sudbury,

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director of Economic Development.

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She may be leading the economic

development department, but her background

11

is in tourism and she sees how it plays

an important role in everything her

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team does from attracting talent to

attracting TV and film productions.

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In this conversation, we unpack all the

ways tourism put Sudbury on the map.

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Welcome, Meredith.

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I am so excited to have you here

in studio with me today, to

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do this podcast conversation.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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Meredith Armstrong: I'm happy to be here.

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Karen Peacock: It's a great pleasure.

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This is great.

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Meredith Armstrong: Mine too.

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Karen Peacock: How about

we just dive right in?

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Can you tell us a little bit about

your background, and experience

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within the tourism, economic,

and workforce development sector?

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Meredith Armstrong: Absolutely.

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I think tourism's really

in my, in my blood.

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I grew up in Stratford, Ontario, which

was pretty much built on tourism.

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Karen Peacock: Yes.

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Meredith Armstrong: Uh, at least since

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And, I worked at the Stratford Festival.

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I worked for York Street Sandwiches.

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One of my first jobs was delivering

sandwiches on a three wheel bike.

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So really understanding how

tourism can be, uh, really part

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of the fabric of a community.

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Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

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Meredith Armstrong: Um, after university,

I lived in Canmore for a few years

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and worked in the hotel industry.

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Karen Peacock: Wow.

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Meredith Armstrong: Uh,

front desk and group tour.

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So again, sort of another level

of the importance of how the

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whole system works together.

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Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

43

Meredith Armstrong: And then I

came back to Ontario and I went to

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Fleming College for the Ecotourism

Management program, which was a really

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incredible experience in Halliburton.

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And, at the time, uh, ecotourism was

a really interesting concept, and

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I had an opportunity for a FedNor

internship in Sudbury, and I knew

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I had to get that because there

weren't a ton of really, sort of,

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purpose built positions in ecotourism.

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And it was hosted by the

City of Greater Sudbury.

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It was a really wonderful experience

working with an organization called

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Partners in Eco Adventure Tourism or PEAT.

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And, yeah, it was a wonderful

group of people, and really helped

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me grow my roots in Sudbury.

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Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

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Meredith Armstrong: Uh, it's a perfect

size for, uh, there's lots going on.

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You know, we're nearly 180,000 people

now, but it's small enough that you

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say hello to people on the street and

you're gonna see people, you know,

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in the grocery store on Saturday

morning and that kind of thing.

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So, working within the City of Greater

Sudbury on the tourism portfolio,

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working with, you know, Science

North, Dynamic Earth, and all those

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small and medium sized folks that

sort of round out the experiences.

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And then in the last few years, I've

taken on more of a broader role within

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economic development that includes tourism

and culture, film and television, but

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also sort of industrial land and mining

supply and service and that kind of thing.

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So, firmly, my heart is with

tourism because, you know, it is

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what makes a city really livable.

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So yeah, workforce development is

about talent retention and attraction.

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And so really can't pull any one thread

without pulling the rest of them.

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So I'm with, I'm still with the City

of Greater Sudbury in the economic

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development team and working on a

little bit of everything these days.

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Karen Peacock: Oh, wonderful.

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Okay.

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Can you tell us a little bit

about the economic outlook for

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the City of Greater Sudbury?

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Meredith Armstrong: That's a

really pertinent question these

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days we are in the midst of let's

say geopolitical challenges.

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Karen Peacock: Are we ever.

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Meredith Armstrong: Um, and I'm

really pleased to say that some of the

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prognosis for Sudbury is pretty positive.

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The Canadian Chamber of Commerce put out

a study on municipalities and how they

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would be impact impacted by potential

tariffs in the US or on Canadian products.

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And out of 41 communities

Sudbury was 41st in terms of the

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vulnerability to the tariffs.

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Karen Peacock: Wow.

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Meredith Armstrong: So, in a lot

of ways, the community's done a

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ton of work over the last several

decades on diversifying, globalizing,

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export readiness, particularly on

the mining supply and service side.

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So we are bracing for impact.

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I'm not saying things are gonna be

easy, but I think Sudbury has a really

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fascinating history of weathering

many different storms economically.

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So I think the outlook outside of

that conversation is also positive.

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We are a growing city.

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We're the, you know, the one

with the growth and population

95

across Northern Ontario.

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We have a very diversified economy.

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So, I think things are relatively

positive going forward.

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Karen Peacock: That's

really great to hear.

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Really, really great to hear.

100

Okay, so you just mentioned the Canada

Chamber of Commerce study that's just

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come out or report, and you said we're

41st, how does the rest of Ontario

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look in comparison then to Sudbury?

103

Meredith Armstrong: Well, I'll

tell you, we're in close contact

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with the five cities of the north,

including North Bay, Timmons,

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Sault Saint Marie, and Thunder Bay.

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We work really closely in many ways.

107

Tourism is a, I think probably the

shining example of cooperation across

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the region, but economic development too.

109

We have lots of conversations.

110

If you take a community like Sault Saint

Marie, for instance, um, some of their

111

steel production related companies are

looking at 30 to 80% impact, 30 to 80%

112

of their business is in the States.

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So that's incredible job losses potential.

114

Lumber is going to be hit really hard.

115

I think, even now, what we hear in the

morning can change by the afternoon.

116

So I think the message I'm hearing from

the federal and the provincial folks

117

is we know you have to go by what's

written, you have to be ready for change.

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Um, I think those communities

that have a lot of business in the

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States, the border communities, the

Sault Saint Maries, the Windsors

120

of the world, are really impacted.

121

And the rest of us are going to

be impacted at the consumer level,

122

but I think time will tell, right?

123

Every day seems to be different.

124

So sort of keep calm

and carry on right now.

125

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

126

And I think that's a great

message for all of us, right?

127

Don't get too caught up or

anxious about what's going on.

128

Meredith Armstrong: Right.

129

Throw in a provincial election

and then a federal election.

130

So yeah, we would just have to

kinda keep our eye on the ball.

131

Karen Peacock: Yeah, definitely.

132

Okay, let's move into a

discussion around tourism.

133

You've been a long time supporter of

our Tourism Excellence North program.

134

Can you tell us about your

involvement in the program and

135

why it's so important to you?

136

Meredith Armstrong: I actually

think it's a really important

137

segue, because for me tourism is

a greatly misunderstood industry.

138

Sometimes it's very difficult

to touch and to understand.

139

We know the impact of tourism

in many ways is immeasurable.

140

We know the contribution of GDP,

we don't produce widgets, so it's

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not always tracked in the same way.

142

The Tourism Excellence North program,

I fundamentally believe that equipping

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small businesses to increase their

capacity to offer better products,

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better experiences, has a long-term

benefit for all communities.

145

So the concept of the TEN program

in teaching a man to fish, in terms

146

of having the strategy and knowing

what the market is looking for.

147

I always thought that was

a fantastic opportunity.

148

I was lucky enough to go on one

of the earliest, best practice

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missions to Traverse City, Michigan.

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And I'll tell you, I guess that was 2017.

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Karen Peacock: June, 2017.

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Meredith Armstrong: We still talk

about that trip, and the benefits of

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that, not only the learnings that we

gain from being there, but the network

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of people that were on the trip.

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So, I'm a huge proponent.

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I think it's worth mentioning that

there's another program that we've

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been successful with over a long time

too, which, um, has been known as

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the Northern Ontario Exports Program.

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And this has been, we've talked about

this before, it's focused on the

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mining supply and service sector.

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And the idea of that program

too is basically giving a

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small business a life coach.

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Way back in the day when there was this

new thing called social media, we used

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to hold these like afternoon seminars

and there'd be some sandwiches and

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you'd hear someone talk about this thing

called Twitter and then you'd go off.

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And especially if you are a small

business owner, you're chief cook and

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bottle washer, you don't necessarily

have a lot of capacity to take what you

168

learned and implement it without someone

holding you accountable or checking in.

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And so the idea of both of those

programs is matching with that person,

170

sort of your accountability buddy,

but an expert in the field, right?

171

So when it comes to being strategic,

doing the right marketing, over time,

172

and I really like that the TEN program

has different levels and modules.

173

So you meet the business where they're

at, and I should say business, but I

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also think it, it's important to note

that this includes organizations,

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nonprofits, attractions, because it takes

everyone to create all those different

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experiences that people are looking for.

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Karen Peacock: Yeah.

178

Agreed.

179

I will also share with our listeners

that you, Meredith, have been part

180

of the original pilot of the Tourism

Excellence North program and sat on the

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management committee and really helped in

building the foundation of the program.

182

And now you're with us again

sitting on the advisory committee

183

and really, um, providing guidance

and knowledge and insight.

184

So it's been so great to have you along

the way in the development of the program.

185

The City of Greater Sudbury has been

collecting a Municipal Accommodations

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Tax for a number of years, so can you

tell us how the city has structured it

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and what are the, some of the projects or

benefits that are being supported by it?

188

Meredith Armstrong: The Municipal

Accommodation Tax or MAT tax, it's

189

often known, it was actually the

province that provided the opportunity

190

for Ontario municipalities to enact.

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They basically give you the permission

as a municipality to implement taxes.

192

So in 2018, Sudbury City Council

approved a MAT tax of 4%.

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So fall 2018 or so, we

got the program going.

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It wasn't too long before

we were hit by COVID.

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So the great thing about Sudbury's

accommodations industry is we weathered

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the storm of COVID relatively well

compared to lots of other communities

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because we're very heavily business

focused when it comes to hotel rooms.

198

There's leisure there too, but there was

lots of business going on despite COVID.

199

So we built up a bit of a

nest egg in the revenues.

200

And the other thing that the province does

is legislates the structure of the MAT.

201

So, the legislation says that the proceeds

of the tax net the administrative costs

202

of the program need to be split at least

50% going to an eligible tourism entity.

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So in Sudbury, that was recognized

as the Greater Sudbury Development

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Corporation, that's our economic

development corporation.

205

It's an arms length agency, 18 member

board, that has a mandate of providing

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guidance and input on economic

development and tourism is part of that.

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So the GSDC has been a really

fantastic group to work with.

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There is a tourism development committee

that is under the purview of GSDC.

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And so it has representation from

hoteliers, attractions, Science

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North is on there, um, restaurateurs,

retailers, culture, that kind of thing.

211

And they provide a really engaged

group that helps us figure out

212

how best to invest the dollars.

213

And then on the municipal side,

council, as part of budget decides

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where that's going, and in Sudbury's

case, it is providing support for

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the large projects, including an

event center, which is in the works.

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Shovels in ground later this year.

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So right downtown.

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And so, the GSDC is thrilled about that

because it's key infrastructure for

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tournaments, sporting events, business

conferences, that kind of thing.

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So, that's a big chunk of it.

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When it comes to, we have what's

called the Tourism Development

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Fund, and it's available to private

sector as well as public sector.

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And there's various streams.

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We've done some really interesting work.

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Kivi Park has been a beneficiary,

when it comes to infrastructure.

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Science North, the Go Deeper project at

Dynamic Earth, which is the expansion.

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We have a film sponsorship stream

actually because film and television is

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a big part of business in Sudbury, and

that generates a ton of hotel rooms.

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It also generates, you know,

awareness of the community.

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I mean, we couldn't wish for something

better than Shoresy and Letterkenny.

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I mean, they, they have a global fan base.

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Uh, apparently Australians just love it.

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Karen Peacock: Really?

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Meredith Armstrong: So we've had

folks who travel to Sudbury to

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see where those things are made.

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Anyway, so we've been able to sponsor

some of the smaller productions

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to come north and to build our

crew base, that kind of thing.

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We have a stream in there for bid

proposals, so if we're bidding

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on something big, sometimes it

costs money to bid on something.

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Very large.

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It helps us with all the pieces

that put us in a place to compete.

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But the primary goal of the Tourism

Development Fund is to take a business

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or an organization with a great

idea for a product or experience

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or a new way of marketing, and

put some wind in their sails.

245

And I think that fundamentally

fits very well with the idea of the

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Tourism Excellence North programs.

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Karen Peacock: It really does.

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And, foundationally, it's

about business development.

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Meredith Armstrong: Exactly.

250

Yeah.

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Karen Peacock: Through tourism.

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Okay.

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What does the tourism

economy in Sudbury look like?

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You know, you've touched upon a

few examples from film to Science

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North to Kivi Park, but can you

share with us how it's made up or

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diversified, and then is the community

in support of tourism overall?

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Meredith Armstrong: It's

an age old question.

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So I think at the beginning I was

talking a little bit about how I think

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the general public doesn't always

have a good understanding of tourism.

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And, for us, tourism excellence

is absolutely everything.

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Your experience from how you found out

about a destination, what your experience

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was in finding a hotel, seeing cool

things to do, great Instagram content,

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to when you stop for gas the people who

helped you were really friendly, there

264

were great selection of restaurants, uh,

you know, nice places to go for a run.

265

You know, those kinds of,

all of those elements.

266

And in Sudbury, I have found in my time

here, sometimes it's the local audience

267

is the hardest to convince, and it's the

visitors who bring that new enthusiasm.

268

Like, you have such a beautiful

community here, because as we all

269

know, Sudbury has a history of

not feeling so much like that.

270

Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

271

Meredith Armstrong: So, you know,

we used to say if you haven't been

272

to Sudbury lately, you haven't

been to Sudbury because so much has

273

changed and so much has improved.

274

I mean, we have 330 lakes

within the city limits.

275

Over the last few years, our international

students and our newcomers population has

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grown significantly, and we have a whole

range of new restaurants, new grocery

277

stores that are culturally, you know,

focused, and so I think that is very

278

visible to people, um, that's associated

largely with newcomers and immigration,

279

but there's some benefits to the visitors.

280

So, Sudbury's tourism economy,

generally speaking, just over

281

half of our visitors coming in are

visiting friends and relatives.

282

Good old VFR.

283

We get, uh, lots of folks coming in

and those are not always seen, right?

284

Like if you're staying with family,

maybe you're not generating hotel room

285

night, but during your visit you'll

probably go to Science North or go

286

out for dinner or go shopping and

that's part of the tourism economy.

287

As I mentioned, business

travel is really important.

288

It's the reason we have hotels.

289

We have a few new hotels

actually in the works.

290

We have some really great properties.

291

You know, we are a hub for

Northeastern Ontario when it comes

292

to, I've mentioned mining supply

and service, but also healthcare.

293

And of course lots of folks

come, they do their Costco run

294

and they stay for the weekend.

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I mean, these, you know, we

don't look a gift horse in the

296

mouth when it comes to Costco.

297

So, I think it's an interesting and

pretty diversified tourism economy, and

298

it's not the main driver of Sudbury as

a community, but what I always say is,

299

what makes a place great to visit is

also what makes it a great place to live.

300

So we always count tourism as an

economic development activity.

301

You can't do talent attraction

without great tourism.

302

Karen Peacock: So, so true.

303

And so even though the community may

not be that aware of what tourism is

304

and how strong and vibrant and what

an impact it has within the City of

305

Greater Sudbury, I think we all still as

a community support it, would you say?

306

Even without kind of

knowing what all of it is?

307

Meredith Armstrong: I mean, I think

you could really go back to the late

308

seventies when things were really

bleak and there was a really wonderful

309

group of committed individuals who

started talking about Science North.

310

And I think that probably turned the

tide in a lot of ways for Sudbury

311

and how it saw itself as a community.

312

And it is fundamentally

a tourism attraction.

313

It's also sort of like the most wonderful

community center you could ever wish.

314

If you've ever been someone who's

taken a toddler to do something

315

local, you know, on a Saturday,

you also have that perspective.

316

But I think people travel a long way

to come to those kinds of attractions.

317

And I think generally Sudbury

residents appreciate that.

318

And I think it's the northern lifestyle

we always appreciate, and that's

319

also, it's a tourism offering, right?

320

You can be on a lake in

minutes, you can go for walks

321

in nature, very close to home.

322

And so that's really, I think

that's core of our offering.

323

Karen Peacock: I would agree, and I said

as much at the downtown master planning

324

committee a few weeks ago, that, you

know, to me one of the ideal things

325

about Sudbury is that we have a wonderful

downtown, and only to get better.

326

And we also have such close proximity

to our rural natural landscape.

327

You can go from the downtown to that rural

area within, you know, 10 minutes, less

328

depending on where you are, and enjoy a

great lake, a walk on a trail, et cetera.

329

And I think it's one of the

beautiful things about Sudbury

330

and what attracts visitors here.

331

Meredith Armstrong: Yeah, for sure.

332

Karen Peacock: What trends

within tourism is Sudbury best

333

situated for, do you think?

334

Meredith Armstrong: That's, again,

something lately that we've been

335

talking a lot about because of the

stuff that's going on with the U.S.

336

You're seeing a lot of media

attention on Canadians and making

337

their upcoming travel decisions.

338

And in a lot of cases we're

seeing people look again at home.

339

You don't have to go anywhere, you can

stay in Canada, you can stay in Ontario.

340

And Sudbury has always been an excellent

destination for a rubber tire market.

341

We're only four hours north of

Toronto and the GTA, you know, London,

342

Kitchener isn't too much farther

than that, Eastern Ontario too.

343

So, I wouldn't call rubber tire

necessarily a trend, but I do think

344

lately we can capitalize on that interest

to explore what you've got at home.

345

And we're also sort of the gateway

to northern communities, right?

346

We work really well with folks in

this part of the world and you can

347

build some fantastic itineraries.

348

I mean, for a long time I've been part

of the Georgian Bay coastal route,

349

which is a sort of case in point,

early stage product development effort.

350

We're not far from Temiskaming

Loop, those kinds of things.

351

So I think the idea that you don't

have to go far, Sudbury is very

352

well positioned to seize on that and

together, in collaboration with our

353

partners, we'll be pursuing that.

354

When it comes to other areas of focus,

I mean, culinary tourism, again, after

355

so many years, is it still a trend?

356

But I do think we have some great

offerings, uh, for folks who are

357

looking for delicious experiences.

358

I think indigenous tourism, you know,

I've been a big part of the Indigenous

359

Tourism Ontario group for years now.

360

And the potential there is huge.

361

And I think quintessentially that's

those the, you know, the original

362

storytellers and the original experiences.

363

And so talk about authentic.

364

I mean, I think there's really

huge potential there too, so.

365

Karen Peacock: Yeah, our

original guides, right?

366

Can you tell us, you mentioned a

little bit about filming and of

367

course Shoresy and, uh, Letterkenny.

368

Can you tell us about the

history of filming in Sudbury

369

and where it sits today?

370

Meredith Armstrong: Sure.

371

I, you know, it's funny looking

back, there are some cult films, cult

372

Canadian films that have something to

do with Sudbury here and there, right?

373

Bruce McDonald's made some films.

374

But I think one that people would remember

early stage would be Men With Brooms.

375

I, that's what came to mind for me.

376

So that was the first cult film

with a very low budget, that was the

377

first sort of production that came

in that used services and things.

378

But I would say another really key

379

Film Studio set up the studio here in

Sudbury, and NOHFC has a film credit

380

that actually supports productions on

their, what we call the northern spend.

381

So the more they can spend by hiring

folks locally, using local services,

382

the more they can access that fund.

383

That's been a game changer.

384

We wouldn't be here really without that.

385

And then over time we've had

some really big productions.

386

V Wars was one of our largest ever.

387

Hallmark films.

388

Those are some great job opportunities.

389

So over that, say 15 years or so,

we've built up a really strong crew

390

base in Sudbury, but also I would

say across northeastern region.

391

So you can come to Sudbury with an

idea and sort of a small group ready

392

to do a production and find experienced

local people to work on the crew.

393

A lot of it is location driven, but

we've got the studio space, we've got

394

craft, we've got, you know, carpenters

and all those kinds of things.

395

So that ecosystem is stronger

now than it ever has been.

396

And I think, you know, as I

said, Letterkenny and Shoresy has

397

been a really wonderful thing.

398

Shoresy in particular because Sudbury

plays itself rather than, you know,

399

subbing in for New York or we've got one

of those downtowns that can be elsewhere.

400

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

401

Any community.

402

Meredith Armstrong: That's right.

403

So, yeah.

404

I really like film because

again, it's, I mean, talk about

405

diversifying your economy.

406

It's a long way from our mining

roots, but it's brought in creative

407

workers and added to our vibrancy.

408

So, yeah, I love working

with the film industry.

409

Karen Peacock: Wow, fantastic.

410

So here's another question.

411

I mean, we've touched

a little bit on COVID.

412

Is the City of Greater Sudbury, is it,

or has it been rebounding since COVID-19.

413

Meredith Armstrong: Uh, so if you looked

at our labor market numbers, we have

414

fully recovered the jobs lost during COVID

by, you know, statistical information.

415

Karen Peacock: Great

news story right there.

416

Meredith Armstrong: As I mentioned, our

accommodation sector I would say still

417

had challenges but wasn't necessarily

hit as hard as other destinations.

418

Uh, the fact that our phone rings

within the economic development team

419

regularly with site selection folks

looking at new hotel properties.

420

You know, you don't build a hotel

without a heck of a lot of research

421

into the market and the feasibility.

422

So the fact that, you know, I think

that's a really good indicator.

423

I think it's changed how people travel,

and so I think there are things that are a

424

challenge for Northern Ontario as a whole.

425

I think how people make their

decisions has changed, right?

426

We, there was a long time

where we focused on our booking

427

engine for hotels and packaging.

428

And I find for us, it's not necessarily

the way most people wanna travel.

429

I think there's a certain level of

stumble upon, I think people want to

430

discover things as they go , and having

ready made tourism experiences has always

431

been the crux of the matter for tourism.

432

You know, it's very expensive for

a small operator to stand by a lake

433

with a fleet of canoes hoping someone

wants to come for a two hour paddle.

434

I think there is the desire

for that, but the seasonality

435

has always been a challenge.

436

The numbers aren't necessarily always

consistent, and I think that was a

437

preexisting challenge, but COVID made

that a bit tougher, really, because people

438

wanna know what they're getting into

and maybe they make decisions closer to

439

their departure date in some ways, which

can make it harder for an entrepreneur.

440

Karen Peacock: So not planning

out so much in advance anymore.

441

And if more people are traveling

by road to get to where they

442

are, it makes it easier.

443

Meredith Armstrong: Right.

444

Pack up a bag and go.

445

We are not Venice, or, you

know, we're not Paris, where

446

you're, this is a bucket list.

447

We just aren't, and I think we, not

just Sudbury, but I would think Ontario,

448

a lot of our destinations suffer from

trying to be all things to all people.

449

And so finding the niche and

working it is, I think, the secret.

450

Karen Peacock: Okay.

451

Great.

452

Talking a little bit about workforce

development, can you tell us about the

453

Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot

project, which Sudbury took part in?

454

Meredith Armstrong: Yeah.

455

The, I think the Rural and Northern

Immigration Pilot program has been a gift.

456

It's a program of Immigration

Canada, and the pilot program we

457

geared up for it in 2018, 2019.

458

It started in 2019.

459

We really got it going sort of 2020, 21.

460

And Sudbury alone has welcomed

2,700 newcomers to our community.

461

Karen Peacock: Incredible.

462

Meredith Armstrong: So that's our

candidates as well as their families.

463

A lot of them came with spouses and

kids, and actually our surveying more

464

recently, sorry, uh, sort of within

the first three years, indicates

465

around 93, 95% of them are still here.

466

Karen Peacock: Really?

467

Meredith Armstrong: Uh, so

it's been a really good.

468

So the whole point, it's

economic immigration.

469

The candidate needs to have a permanent

job offer, in this first pilot, and the

470

intention to reside in the community.

471

And the exciting thing is Immigration

Canada recognized the success of

472

the model, which was based on an

Atlantic Canada experience a few years

473

ago that was also made permanent.

474

So they've just launched the Rural

Community Immigration Program.

475

So it's RCIP.

476

And there's also a Francophone

Community Immigration program.

477

So those are also pilots.

478

We're still, we're part of this

one, we're actually gearing up now.

479

We expect it to launch sort

of late spring, early summer.

480

And it will continue to help us attract

people who intend to stay and have a

481

job and wanna be part of the community.

482

So it's been, uh, yeah, huge.

483

Our last census showed like 4% growth

in Sudbury, which is, you know, for

484

Northern Ontario that's significant.

485

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

486

It truly is.

487

Especially, you know, for many

years our population was stagnant

488

and potentially declining.

489

So now we're seeing it grow.

490

Meredith Armstrong: That's right.

491

And so I mean, international students

have been an important part of that.

492

For the first few years, they

became a really important pool

493

to look for candidates because

they often go into permanent jobs

494

coming out of post-secondary.

495

But now we're seeing folks

coming for the program.

496

The whole point is that in Canada,

the immigration gateways are generally

497

Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, and

people get to those cities and stay.

498

And all kinds of great rural

and northern communities all

499

across Canada need new people.

500

And we know we have very low

unemployment, so there's lots

501

of jobs there that need help.

502

So, it's ticking a lot of boxes for us.

503

Karen Peacock: No kidding.

504

So how are you, how does the

program manage to redirect people or

505

recruit them to Sudbury as opposed

to having them go into Toronto?

506

Meredith Armstrong: So because it's

focused on jobs, a lot of the work

507

is done because that individual's

looking for a specific job.

508

In the program, we have to identify our

priority sectors and in this iteration

509

of the program, it will be very much

focused on the employers as a gate

510

for the candidate to come forward.

511

So what it does is give the

candidate a community approval for

512

a pathway to permanent residency.

513

So there's, I mean, immigration

is incredibly complicated.

514

There are different paths to

gaining permanent residency or PR.

515

This one basically gives you a path,

uh, I don't wanna say fast track

516

because it's not necessarily faster

than other pathways, but it does

517

provide a real solution for those

who have the criteria met and might

518

not fit within another pathway.

519

So, so far, there are newcomers

looking for any opportunity.

520

So we haven't had to

do a ton of marketing.

521

We have recently launched a campaign

called Move to Sudbury, and so a lot

522

of it is targeting newcomers, but it's

also targeting anyone who's not from

523

here who wants to come and live here.

524

So, um, we're trying to make it easy

for people to see themselves here.

525

So everything from, you know, where

to live, what neighborhoods are

526

like, school boards, real estate,

healthcare, all of those things

527

are trying to put it in one place.

528

And I can tell you the tourism assets

are crucial to doing a good job of

529

that campaign because that lifestyle,

like all tourism assets that help

530

us promote the talent attraction.

531

Karen Peacock: Right.

532

It's quality of life, it

really boils down to.

533

Meredith Armstrong: I always said, it's

a picture of a bicycle with a bottle

534

of wine and a baguette in a basket.

535

Like there, that's what, you

know, it's like a stock photo.

536

But we've got, like, I've had

people ask, are those stock photos?

537

And like, Nope, that's how it looks.

538

Yep.

539

You can go for a walk at sunset on a

lake and we just take it for granted.

540

But so when it comes to workforce

development, because Sudbury has such low

541

unemployment, workforce is top of mind

for almost entirely our whole team and

542

the Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot

program has provided a tool in a broader

543

toolkit for working with employers,

connecting them to the right people, and

544

helping to grow the economy that way.

545

Karen Peacock: Wow, really interesting.

546

Okay, I think we've just covered

how Sudbury's population and

547

workforce has grown through this.

548

Is there anything else

you wanna add to that?

549

Meredith Armstrong: I think it's

worth noting that we are also

550

recognized as part of the Francophone

Community Immigration Pilot.

551

So that's focused on Francophone

individuals working with

552

Francophone employers.

553

Uh.

554

You know, we have a very

strong Francophone culture

555

and community here in Sudbury.

556

Other communities in Northern Ontario

also have the program, and I'm

557

interested to see how that transpires.

558

Like we take, we play a key role,

obviously, but I was mentioning how

559

international students have spurred

new grocery stores, new restaurants.

560

I've always been fascinated by how

Sudbury's Francophone community is

561

all around us, but not super visible.

562

You know, Place des Arts, which is

our multi-use facility downtown, was

563

really important to sort of stake that

presence of the Francophone and the

564

Franco-Ontarian culture in Sudbury.

565

We don't have a really great

Franco-Ontarian restaurant or bakery, you

566

know, if you want tarte au sucre, you

have to know somebody who's making it.

567

I mean, Italian restaurants, we've

got lots of those and there's lots

568

of, um, but I just think, wouldn't it

be interesting if that spurs some new

569

offerings, if it comes off successfully.

570

The numbers are smaller than

the Rural Community Immigration

571

Program, but the potential is

there to work with that community.

572

So we're pretty excited.

573

Karen Peacock: Yeah, absolutely.

574

Can you share for our listeners

what percentage of the

575

population is Francophone?

576

I know it used to sit around 33?

577

Meredith Armstrong: Depending on how

you look at it, without having the

578

latest census data in front of me, yeah.

579

I mean, I think 26 to 30%.

580

It's funny because when you ask

folks if they are Francophone,

581

you get different answers, right?

582

There's lots of people who speak French

with their family at home, but probably

583

don't conduct their business in French.

584

But if you get on a bus or you go to the

mall or you go to a restaurant, we know

585

at any given time somebody's gonna be

having a lively conversation en français.

586

So, yeah, I think generally we about

a third would identify as Francophone.

587

Karen Peacock: Okay.

588

Thank you.

589

What remains a top priority for

the City of Greater Sudbury in

590

attracting people to Sudbury?

591

So I guess in terms of jobs and in

growing the population, what does the

592

City of Greater Sudbury see as sort

of the main need for recruitment,

593

or where's the greatest skill gap?

594

Meredith Armstrong: As we develop the

framework for the new, the Rural Community

595

Immigration Pilot, we're actually gonna

have to formalize priority sectors.

596

I would say in mining supply and

service, you often hear that Sudbury

597

has a higher per capita population

of very specialized engineers,

598

which I always think is interesting.

599

You know, we have over 300

companies in the mining supply

600

and service space in Sudbury.

601

There's about 14,000 people working

in that sector, and you'll hear

602

a lot about the different jobs.

603

A lot of them are highly

specialized, highly technical.

604

Uh, I would say healthcare

is another, like everyone.

605

We are actually doing pretty

well when it comes to family

606

physicians, but there's still a gap.

607

Um, you'll hear a lot about personal

support workers, nurses, medical staff.

608

And then of course, we have been very

lucky to have an international student

609

population who are some of the most

hardworking, practical folks who will do

610

anything to just stay here, work hard.

611

You know, I always think

we're very lucky to have that.

612

These are people who are often going to

school, often living in houses with lots

613

of other people, and doing a lot of work.

614

And sometimes they are engineers

or they're very highly educated

615

in their home countries.

616

I know of more than one mining supply

and service company where they've

617

been known to go to some of our large

retailers and introduce themselves to

618

folks working on the floor and find out

that they are, you know, highly qualified

619

at X, Y, Z, and get them into jobs.

620

I mean, that's not the norm, but those

kinds of interactions happen too.

621

So I would say, yeah, healthcare, not

just mining but mining supply and service,

622

which is a pretty broad array of jobs.

623

And then hospitality.

624

Yeah.

625

So I mean, hotels have a heck of a

time getting everything from management

626

to house housekeepers these days.

627

And restaurants.

628

Karen Peacock: There still remains

a real labour shortage there.

629

Meredith Armstrong: Absolutely.

630

Yeah.

631

Karen Peacock: So labor shortages

have been ongoing for a number of

632

years and especially within the

tourism and hospitality industry.

633

And we, we've known, you know, that

there was challenges coming forward,

634

but not just within the tourism sector.

635

It has been within different sectors.

636

What are the challenges in recruiting

and retaining staff within Sudbury?

637

And maybe if you can touch upon,

you know, things like living wage

638

accommodations because you know, we

know that that's a huge challenge.

639

Work-life balance.

640

If you can maybe touch upon those.

641

Meredith Armstrong: Sure.

642

I think a strength that Sudbury has

is a pretty accessible, affordable

643

standard of living, but that

depends on where you're coming from.

644

So I am reminded that we often

compare ourselves to Southern

645

Ontario, so our houses are cheaper.

646

I think our average home price,

more recently, was about $434,000.

647

But if you're looking for a house,

you're not necessarily going to easily

648

find a house for that kind of cost.

649

And if you're coming from Northern

Ontario, that's more expensive

650

than where you're coming from.

651

So I just, I put that within context,

but it's still cheaper than where

652

the bulk of our provincial population

lives, which is Southern Ontario.

653

Work-life balance, you are not

gonna spend 90 minutes on a

654

highway commuting to and from work.

655

Like, that's just, you know, I was

talking to someone the other day that was

656

complaining about a seven minute commute.

657

Well, let's keep it in perspective.

658

I think housing is top

of mind for everyone.

659

We have a very low vacancy rate

when it comes to rental properties.

660

That's really important because

people who are coming to Sudbury.

661

Um, many, especially if they're younger

or coming from further away, they're gonna

662

rent something before they buy a house.

663

So not being able to find, uh,

apartments, that's top of mind.

664

We call it the missing middle.

665

We really don't have a lot.

666

So the city actually

has a housing strategy.

667

We work, uh, economic development

works closely with our development

668

team, planning, building services

to make sure we're doing what we

669

can to reduce the barriers and

help get projects off the ground,

670

multi-residential projects as well.

671

When we're recruiting, um, often,

especially through the immigration pilot,

672

and post-secondaries and other jobs,

when they come with a family, a spouse

673

and kids, often it's easier to see the

retention because as anyone with a family

674

knows, once you've put down roots, it

tends to, you meet people through

675

your kids and all that kind of thing.

676

We've learned a lot through our physician

recruitment work over many, many years.

677

It's really a personal touch.

678

So, you know, city tours, finding

employment for a spouse when one

679

is a doctor or a nurse practitioner

or a primary healthcare provider.

680

Schools is a huge thing too, so really

customizing how you would speak to those

681

individuals and how you help them sort of

see themselves reflected in the community.

682

Yeah, so I think we've really learned

that there's about a two year window.

683

So if you see that they have made it

through the first two years, the first

684

two winters included, generally we

see that people stay for a longer term.

685

Karen Peacock: So there's

some stickiness to it.

686

Meredith Armstrong: Yes.

687

Karen Peacock: That's great.

688

We're getting close to the

end of our conversation.

689

I'd like to ask you though, what do you

like most about working in tourism and

690

working in the role that you're in now?

691

What do you love about it?

692

Meredith Armstrong: I have often

said that tourism is like, they used

693

to use it for the Peace Corps, but

the toughest job you'll ever love.

694

I, you know, I think when tourism

is done well, it can change lives.

695

And there's not a lot of other industries

that can say that the same way.

696

A really amazing experience you have

on a trip can change your perspective,

697

change your life, that kind of thing.

698

And when it's done well with

the whole, you know, taking the

699

village and doing that, it can make

a really interesting community.

700

I love working with people who could

see themselves in that industry.

701

They have the vision, they have

the attention to detail, and

702

they wanna do it really well.

703

Those are just really incredible humans,

I think when they get it all right, and,

704

um, I think tourism is one of the things

that makes a community really resilient

705

because those are dispersed jobs within

many small organizations and businesses.

706

It's not like a big warehouse

run by, you know, one of those

707

billionaires that can just make a

decision with a stroke of the pen.

708

And so a strong tourism industry,

while it can be impacted by things

709

like COVID and SARS way back in the

day, it can also rebound in a way.

710

And we've seen communities all

over the place sort of remake

711

themselves with tourism involved.

712

So I just think it's a

fascinating industry to work with.

713

And like I say, as I get into other areas

of economic development like mining,

714

like development, I really come back to

the core pieces that make our community

715

amazing and their tourism assets.

716

Yeah.

717

So I think I just see it as an

underpinning and I'm just committed

718

to helping people understand,

who aren't usually in this

719

conversation, or in that realm.

720

When they see and when they get it, they

have a new appreciation for how important

721

the industry is, and we keep fighting the

good fight when it comes to getting the

722

attention that that industry deserves.

723

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

724

Great.

725

One more question.

726

I'm curious, what is one of

your most memorable visitor

727

experiences that you've had?

728

Meredith Armstrong: Wow.

729

That's a great question.

730

I mean, there have been some

really interesting experiences.

731

Years ago, I was invited to take part

in a program with Global Affairs Canada

732

to a region in Peru, up in the Andes.

733

And the idea was that they were taking

Indigenous communities in areas that

734

have been very reliant on mining and

where the mine was maybe not going

735

to be there forever, and helping

them understand how to use tourism

736

as a way to pivot their economies.

737

And this is sort of like

almost pre-tourism, right?

738

Like explaining what it is, and

with the group I was with, we had an

739

opportunity to go way up in the Andes.

740

I mean, in one valley where we were, there

were 37 different dialects of Quechua.

741

Karen Peacock: Wow.

742

Meredith Armstrong: So like, the old

ways were still the ways of doing things.

743

And we had an experience of

being welcomed by this group.

744

They didn't even speak Spanish, you know,

like digging a hole in the earth and

745

building the traditional pachamama, like

the oven, and sharing what they had.

746

And just sitting outside surrounded by

mountains with this community of people.

747

Who really had nothing to gain

other than just being completely

748

welcoming and open to learning.

749

And that was a pretty

incredible experience for me.

750

And seeing that they were interested in

what we had to say about how what they

751

were doing is a tourism experience.

752

And with some thoughtful tweaks

and additions can be a product that

753

you could charge money for, and

yet don't lose the authenticity

754

and the meaningful way of doing it.

755

For me, that was sort of fundamentally

the sort of philosophy behind

756

tourism that was pretty memorable.

757

Karen Peacock: It sounds really memorable.

758

That sense of place that

being able to tell this story.

759

Meredith Armstrong: You can't do

that anywhere else in the world.

760

Like, it's that spot in that

moment with those people.

761

And that's why you can't underestimate

the power of that experience.

762

Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

763

Yeah.

764

Okay.

765

I've asked you a lot of questions, so

I'm gonna, I'm gonna turn it over to you.

766

Is there any final thoughts or

anything I haven't asked you that

767

you might like to comment on?

768

Meredith Armstrong: I think one of the

things we didn't talk about when it

769

comes to workforce is, I think there's

an opportunity to recognize that for

770

generations of Canadians, first jobs

were jobs in the tourism industry.

771

And, you have said before, I think every

person out there should, at some point

772

in their lives and their careers, make

a bed, clean a toilet, serve a meal,

773

greet people they don't know, have

those interactions because the learning

774

about humanity, the humility it gives

you when you're doing a good job, the

775

honor in a job well done, no matter what

that job is, I just think people forget

776

that most of us, without even realizing

it, have had a tourism experience

777

on that side of the interaction.

778

And these are good jobs.

779

I mean, my own experience in

these kinds of jobs, working front

780

desk, working on a boat on the St.

781

Lawrence, like these were incredible

experiences when I was young.

782

It helped me see different parts of

Canada and grounded me in how people are

783

and how we should be with each other.

784

So I think there's something

powerful about that.

785

Karen Peacock: Some real

intrinsic values and principles.

786

Meredith Armstrong: Absolutely.

787

Karen Peacock: That we learn as humans.

788

Meredith Armstrong: Yeah.

789

Keeps you humble.

790

It's sort of like, think of

those, um, where they put the boss

791

of the company like in shipping

and receiving or something.

792

I think everyone should have to

do, should have to experience that.

793

Okay, it's time for your placement as

a housekeeper in a hotel or something.

794

So I just think, I can think

of a few folks who would

795

benefit from that experience.

796

Karen Peacock: That's great.

797

Uh, okay.

798

Well, thank you so much

again for coming in person.

799

This is, it's wonderful to share the

space and it's been a great conversation.

800

It's lovely to have you.

801

Meredith Armstrong: Absolutely.

802

My pleasure.

803

Thanks, Karen.

804

Karen Peacock: Next time on Let's

Talk Northern Ontario Tourism, I chat

805

with Justin Lafontaine, co-founder

of the Tourism Innovation Lab, an

806

incubator for tourism businesses.

807

We chat about the Spark program

and how it has helped Northern

808

Ontario tourism businesses get

seed funding and mentorship.

809

Follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcast

to make sure you don't miss it.

810

Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is an

initiative of Tourism Excellence North and

811

recorded on the traditional territories

of the Anishinaabek and the Mushkegowuk.

812

It is produced by Storied Places

Media with support from Erica Richard,

813

Naza Obasi, and Gillian McCullough.

814

I'm Karen Peacock.

815

Thanks for listening.