In this episode of Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism, host Karen Peacock sits down with Meredith Armstrong, the Director of Economic Development for the City of Greater Sudbury. Meredith highlights how tourism is integral to Sudbury's economy, from attracting talent to attracting TV and film productions. The conversation covers the impact of the Municipal Accommodation Tax, the success of the Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot Program, and Sudbury's resilience and growth amid geopolitical challenges.
About the City of Greater Sudbury
About the podcast
Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is a podcast for tourism operators and industry stakeholders featuring experts who understand what it means to run a tourism business or organization here in Northern Ontario. Through casual conversations, you’ll learn about cutting edge topics like AI marketing, Cruise Ship Tourism, and trends that are shaking up the industry. Plus, you can tune in while driving or doing chores.
For even more insights that’ll help you grow your business, organization, or community, connect with Tourism Excellence North, which is part of Destination Northern Ontario:
If you like podcasts, DNO has another one called Destination: Northern Ontario. Season 1 is for people thinking about buying a tourism business, and Season 2 has helpful advice for new tourism operators.
Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is an initiative of Tourism Excellence North and is recorded on the traditional territories of the Anishinaabek and the Mushkegowuk. It is hosted by Karen Peacock and produced by Storied Places Media with support from Erica Richard, Naza Obasi, and Gillian McCullough.
We used to say if you haven't been to Sudbury lately, you
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:haven't been to Sudbury because so much
has changed and so much has improved.
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:Karen Peacock: Welcome to Let's Talk
Northern Ontario Tourism, a podcast
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:for tourism operators and industry
stakeholders featuring experts who
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:actually understand what it means
to run a tourism business or tourism
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:organization here in Northern Ontario.
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:I'm Karen Peacock.
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:In this episode, I'm joined by Meredith
Armstrong, the City of Greater Sudbury,
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:director of Economic Development.
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:She may be leading the economic
development department, but her background
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:is in tourism and she sees how it plays
an important role in everything her
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:team does from attracting talent to
attracting TV and film productions.
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:In this conversation, we unpack all the
ways tourism put Sudbury on the map.
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:Welcome, Meredith.
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:I am so excited to have you here
in studio with me today, to
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:do this podcast conversation.
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:Thank you so much for being here.
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:Meredith Armstrong: I'm happy to be here.
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:Karen Peacock: It's a great pleasure.
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:This is great.
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:Meredith Armstrong: Mine too.
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:Karen Peacock: How about
we just dive right in?
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:Can you tell us a little bit about
your background, and experience
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:within the tourism, economic,
and workforce development sector?
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:Meredith Armstrong: Absolutely.
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:I think tourism's really
in my, in my blood.
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:I grew up in Stratford, Ontario, which
was pretty much built on tourism.
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:Karen Peacock: Yes.
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:Meredith Armstrong: Uh, at least since
:
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:And, I worked at the Stratford Festival.
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:I worked for York Street Sandwiches.
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:One of my first jobs was delivering
sandwiches on a three wheel bike.
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:So really understanding how
tourism can be, uh, really part
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:of the fabric of a community.
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:Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.
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:Meredith Armstrong: Um, after university,
I lived in Canmore for a few years
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:and worked in the hotel industry.
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:Karen Peacock: Wow.
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:Meredith Armstrong: Uh,
front desk and group tour.
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:So again, sort of another level
of the importance of how the
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:whole system works together.
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:Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.
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:Meredith Armstrong: And then I
came back to Ontario and I went to
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:Fleming College for the Ecotourism
Management program, which was a really
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:incredible experience in Halliburton.
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:And, at the time, uh, ecotourism was
a really interesting concept, and
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:I had an opportunity for a FedNor
internship in Sudbury, and I knew
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:I had to get that because there
weren't a ton of really, sort of,
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:purpose built positions in ecotourism.
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:And it was hosted by the
City of Greater Sudbury.
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:It was a really wonderful experience
working with an organization called
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:Partners in Eco Adventure Tourism or PEAT.
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:And, yeah, it was a wonderful
group of people, and really helped
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:me grow my roots in Sudbury.
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:Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.
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:Meredith Armstrong: Uh, it's a perfect
size for, uh, there's lots going on.
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:You know, we're nearly 180,000 people
now, but it's small enough that you
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:say hello to people on the street and
you're gonna see people, you know,
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:in the grocery store on Saturday
morning and that kind of thing.
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:So, working within the City of Greater
Sudbury on the tourism portfolio,
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:working with, you know, Science
North, Dynamic Earth, and all those
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:small and medium sized folks that
sort of round out the experiences.
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:And then in the last few years, I've
taken on more of a broader role within
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:economic development that includes tourism
and culture, film and television, but
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:also sort of industrial land and mining
supply and service and that kind of thing.
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:So, firmly, my heart is with
tourism because, you know, it is
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:what makes a city really livable.
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:So yeah, workforce development is
about talent retention and attraction.
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:And so really can't pull any one thread
without pulling the rest of them.
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:So I'm with, I'm still with the City
of Greater Sudbury in the economic
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:development team and working on a
little bit of everything these days.
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:Karen Peacock: Oh, wonderful.
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:Okay.
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:Can you tell us a little bit
about the economic outlook for
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:the City of Greater Sudbury?
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:Meredith Armstrong: That's a
really pertinent question these
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:days we are in the midst of let's
say geopolitical challenges.
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:Karen Peacock: Are we ever.
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:Meredith Armstrong: Um, and I'm
really pleased to say that some of the
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:prognosis for Sudbury is pretty positive.
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:The Canadian Chamber of Commerce put out
a study on municipalities and how they
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:would be impact impacted by potential
tariffs in the US or on Canadian products.
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:And out of 41 communities
Sudbury was 41st in terms of the
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:vulnerability to the tariffs.
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:Karen Peacock: Wow.
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:Meredith Armstrong: So, in a lot
of ways, the community's done a
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:ton of work over the last several
decades on diversifying, globalizing,
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:export readiness, particularly on
the mining supply and service side.
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:So we are bracing for impact.
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:I'm not saying things are gonna be
easy, but I think Sudbury has a really
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:fascinating history of weathering
many different storms economically.
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:So I think the outlook outside of
that conversation is also positive.
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:We are a growing city.
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:We're the, you know, the one
with the growth and population
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:across Northern Ontario.
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:We have a very diversified economy.
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:So, I think things are relatively
positive going forward.
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:Karen Peacock: That's
really great to hear.
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:Really, really great to hear.
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:Okay, so you just mentioned the Canada
Chamber of Commerce study that's just
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:come out or report, and you said we're
41st, how does the rest of Ontario
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:look in comparison then to Sudbury?
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:Meredith Armstrong: Well, I'll
tell you, we're in close contact
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:with the five cities of the north,
including North Bay, Timmons,
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:Sault Saint Marie, and Thunder Bay.
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:We work really closely in many ways.
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:Tourism is a, I think probably the
shining example of cooperation across
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:the region, but economic development too.
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:We have lots of conversations.
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:If you take a community like Sault Saint
Marie, for instance, um, some of their
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:steel production related companies are
looking at 30 to 80% impact, 30 to 80%
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:of their business is in the States.
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:So that's incredible job losses potential.
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:Lumber is going to be hit really hard.
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:I think, even now, what we hear in the
morning can change by the afternoon.
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:So I think the message I'm hearing from
the federal and the provincial folks
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:is we know you have to go by what's
written, you have to be ready for change.
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:Um, I think those communities
that have a lot of business in the
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:States, the border communities, the
Sault Saint Maries, the Windsors
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:of the world, are really impacted.
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:And the rest of us are going to
be impacted at the consumer level,
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:but I think time will tell, right?
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:Every day seems to be different.
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:So sort of keep calm
and carry on right now.
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:Karen Peacock: Yeah.
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:And I think that's a great
message for all of us, right?
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:Don't get too caught up or
anxious about what's going on.
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:Meredith Armstrong: Right.
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:Throw in a provincial election
and then a federal election.
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:So yeah, we would just have to
kinda keep our eye on the ball.
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:Karen Peacock: Yeah, definitely.
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:Okay, let's move into a
discussion around tourism.
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:You've been a long time supporter of
our Tourism Excellence North program.
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:Can you tell us about your
involvement in the program and
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:why it's so important to you?
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:Meredith Armstrong: I actually
think it's a really important
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:segue, because for me tourism is
a greatly misunderstood industry.
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:Sometimes it's very difficult
to touch and to understand.
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:We know the impact of tourism
in many ways is immeasurable.
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:We know the contribution of GDP,
we don't produce widgets, so it's
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:not always tracked in the same way.
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:The Tourism Excellence North program,
I fundamentally believe that equipping
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:small businesses to increase their
capacity to offer better products,
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:better experiences, has a long-term
benefit for all communities.
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:So the concept of the TEN program
in teaching a man to fish, in terms
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:of having the strategy and knowing
what the market is looking for.
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:I always thought that was
a fantastic opportunity.
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:I was lucky enough to go on one
of the earliest, best practice
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:missions to Traverse City, Michigan.
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:And I'll tell you, I guess that was 2017.
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:Karen Peacock: June, 2017.
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:Meredith Armstrong: We still talk
about that trip, and the benefits of
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:that, not only the learnings that we
gain from being there, but the network
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:of people that were on the trip.
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:So, I'm a huge proponent.
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:I think it's worth mentioning that
there's another program that we've
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:been successful with over a long time
too, which, um, has been known as
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:the Northern Ontario Exports Program.
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:And this has been, we've talked about
this before, it's focused on the
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:mining supply and service sector.
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:And the idea of that program
too is basically giving a
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:small business a life coach.
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:Way back in the day when there was this
new thing called social media, we used
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:to hold these like afternoon seminars
and there'd be some sandwiches and
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:you'd hear someone talk about this thing
called Twitter and then you'd go off.
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:And especially if you are a small
business owner, you're chief cook and
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:bottle washer, you don't necessarily
have a lot of capacity to take what you
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:learned and implement it without someone
holding you accountable or checking in.
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:And so the idea of both of those
programs is matching with that person,
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:sort of your accountability buddy,
but an expert in the field, right?
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:So when it comes to being strategic,
doing the right marketing, over time,
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:and I really like that the TEN program
has different levels and modules.
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:So you meet the business where they're
at, and I should say business, but I
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:also think it, it's important to note
that this includes organizations,
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:nonprofits, attractions, because it takes
everyone to create all those different
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:experiences that people are looking for.
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:Karen Peacock: Yeah.
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:Agreed.
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:I will also share with our listeners
that you, Meredith, have been part
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:of the original pilot of the Tourism
Excellence North program and sat on the
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:management committee and really helped in
building the foundation of the program.
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:And now you're with us again
sitting on the advisory committee
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:and really, um, providing guidance
and knowledge and insight.
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:So it's been so great to have you along
the way in the development of the program.
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:The City of Greater Sudbury has been
collecting a Municipal Accommodations
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:Tax for a number of years, so can you
tell us how the city has structured it
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:and what are the, some of the projects or
benefits that are being supported by it?
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:Meredith Armstrong: The Municipal
Accommodation Tax or MAT tax, it's
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:often known, it was actually the
province that provided the opportunity
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:for Ontario municipalities to enact.
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:They basically give you the permission
as a municipality to implement taxes.
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:So in 2018, Sudbury City Council
approved a MAT tax of 4%.
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:So fall 2018 or so, we
got the program going.
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:It wasn't too long before
we were hit by COVID.
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:So the great thing about Sudbury's
accommodations industry is we weathered
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:the storm of COVID relatively well
compared to lots of other communities
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:because we're very heavily business
focused when it comes to hotel rooms.
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:There's leisure there too, but there was
lots of business going on despite COVID.
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:So we built up a bit of a
nest egg in the revenues.
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:And the other thing that the province does
is legislates the structure of the MAT.
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:So, the legislation says that the proceeds
of the tax net the administrative costs
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:of the program need to be split at least
50% going to an eligible tourism entity.
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:So in Sudbury, that was recognized
as the Greater Sudbury Development
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:Corporation, that's our economic
development corporation.
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:It's an arms length agency, 18 member
board, that has a mandate of providing
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:guidance and input on economic
development and tourism is part of that.
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:So the GSDC has been a really
fantastic group to work with.
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:There is a tourism development committee
that is under the purview of GSDC.
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:And so it has representation from
hoteliers, attractions, Science
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:North is on there, um, restaurateurs,
retailers, culture, that kind of thing.
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:And they provide a really engaged
group that helps us figure out
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:how best to invest the dollars.
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:And then on the municipal side,
council, as part of budget decides
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:where that's going, and in Sudbury's
case, it is providing support for
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:the large projects, including an
event center, which is in the works.
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:Shovels in ground later this year.
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:So right downtown.
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:And so, the GSDC is thrilled about that
because it's key infrastructure for
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:tournaments, sporting events, business
conferences, that kind of thing.
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:So, that's a big chunk of it.
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:When it comes to, we have what's
called the Tourism Development
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:Fund, and it's available to private
sector as well as public sector.
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:And there's various streams.
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:We've done some really interesting work.
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:Kivi Park has been a beneficiary,
when it comes to infrastructure.
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:Science North, the Go Deeper project at
Dynamic Earth, which is the expansion.
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:We have a film sponsorship stream
actually because film and television is
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:a big part of business in Sudbury, and
that generates a ton of hotel rooms.
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:It also generates, you know,
awareness of the community.
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:I mean, we couldn't wish for something
better than Shoresy and Letterkenny.
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:I mean, they, they have a global fan base.
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:Uh, apparently Australians just love it.
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:Karen Peacock: Really?
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:Meredith Armstrong: So we've had
folks who travel to Sudbury to
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:see where those things are made.
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:Anyway, so we've been able to sponsor
some of the smaller productions
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:to come north and to build our
crew base, that kind of thing.
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:We have a stream in there for bid
proposals, so if we're bidding
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:on something big, sometimes it
costs money to bid on something.
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:Very large.
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:It helps us with all the pieces
that put us in a place to compete.
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:But the primary goal of the Tourism
Development Fund is to take a business
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:or an organization with a great
idea for a product or experience
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:or a new way of marketing, and
put some wind in their sails.
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:And I think that fundamentally
fits very well with the idea of the
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:Tourism Excellence North programs.
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:Karen Peacock: It really does.
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:And, foundationally, it's
about business development.
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:Meredith Armstrong: Exactly.
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:Yeah.
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:Karen Peacock: Through tourism.
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:Okay.
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:What does the tourism
economy in Sudbury look like?
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:You know, you've touched upon a
few examples from film to Science
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:North to Kivi Park, but can you
share with us how it's made up or
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:diversified, and then is the community
in support of tourism overall?
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:Meredith Armstrong: It's
an age old question.
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:So I think at the beginning I was
talking a little bit about how I think
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:the general public doesn't always
have a good understanding of tourism.
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:And, for us, tourism excellence
is absolutely everything.
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:Your experience from how you found out
about a destination, what your experience
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:was in finding a hotel, seeing cool
things to do, great Instagram content,
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:to when you stop for gas the people who
helped you were really friendly, there
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:were great selection of restaurants, uh,
you know, nice places to go for a run.
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:You know, those kinds of,
all of those elements.
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:And in Sudbury, I have found in my time
here, sometimes it's the local audience
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:is the hardest to convince, and it's the
visitors who bring that new enthusiasm.
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:Like, you have such a beautiful
community here, because as we all
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:know, Sudbury has a history of
not feeling so much like that.
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:Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.
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:Meredith Armstrong: So, you know,
we used to say if you haven't been
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:to Sudbury lately, you haven't
been to Sudbury because so much has
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:changed and so much has improved.
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:I mean, we have 330 lakes
within the city limits.
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:Over the last few years, our international
students and our newcomers population has
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:grown significantly, and we have a whole
range of new restaurants, new grocery
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:stores that are culturally, you know,
focused, and so I think that is very
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:visible to people, um, that's associated
largely with newcomers and immigration,
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:but there's some benefits to the visitors.
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:So, Sudbury's tourism economy,
generally speaking, just over
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:half of our visitors coming in are
visiting friends and relatives.
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:Good old VFR.
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:We get, uh, lots of folks coming in
and those are not always seen, right?
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:Like if you're staying with family,
maybe you're not generating hotel room
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:night, but during your visit you'll
probably go to Science North or go
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:out for dinner or go shopping and
that's part of the tourism economy.
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:As I mentioned, business
travel is really important.
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:It's the reason we have hotels.
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:We have a few new hotels
actually in the works.
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:We have some really great properties.
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:You know, we are a hub for
Northeastern Ontario when it comes
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:to, I've mentioned mining supply
and service, but also healthcare.
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:And of course lots of folks
come, they do their Costco run
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:and they stay for the weekend.
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:I mean, these, you know, we
don't look a gift horse in the
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:mouth when it comes to Costco.
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:So, I think it's an interesting and
pretty diversified tourism economy, and
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:it's not the main driver of Sudbury as
a community, but what I always say is,
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:what makes a place great to visit is
also what makes it a great place to live.
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:So we always count tourism as an
economic development activity.
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:You can't do talent attraction
without great tourism.
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:Karen Peacock: So, so true.
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:And so even though the community may
not be that aware of what tourism is
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:and how strong and vibrant and what
an impact it has within the City of
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:Greater Sudbury, I think we all still as
a community support it, would you say?
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:Even without kind of
knowing what all of it is?
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:Meredith Armstrong: I mean, I think
you could really go back to the late
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:seventies when things were really
bleak and there was a really wonderful
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:group of committed individuals who
started talking about Science North.
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:And I think that probably turned the
tide in a lot of ways for Sudbury
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:and how it saw itself as a community.
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:And it is fundamentally
a tourism attraction.
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:It's also sort of like the most wonderful
community center you could ever wish.
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:If you've ever been someone who's
taken a toddler to do something
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:local, you know, on a Saturday,
you also have that perspective.
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:But I think people travel a long way
to come to those kinds of attractions.
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:And I think generally Sudbury
residents appreciate that.
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:And I think it's the northern lifestyle
we always appreciate, and that's
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:also, it's a tourism offering, right?
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:You can be on a lake in
minutes, you can go for walks
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:in nature, very close to home.
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:And so that's really, I think
that's core of our offering.
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:Karen Peacock: I would agree, and I said
as much at the downtown master planning
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:committee a few weeks ago, that, you
know, to me one of the ideal things
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:about Sudbury is that we have a wonderful
downtown, and only to get better.
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:And we also have such close proximity
to our rural natural landscape.
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:You can go from the downtown to that rural
area within, you know, 10 minutes, less
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:depending on where you are, and enjoy a
great lake, a walk on a trail, et cetera.
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:And I think it's one of the
beautiful things about Sudbury
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:and what attracts visitors here.
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:Meredith Armstrong: Yeah, for sure.
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:Karen Peacock: What trends
within tourism is Sudbury best
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:situated for, do you think?
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:Meredith Armstrong: That's, again,
something lately that we've been
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:talking a lot about because of the
stuff that's going on with the U.S.
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:You're seeing a lot of media
attention on Canadians and making
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:their upcoming travel decisions.
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:And in a lot of cases we're
seeing people look again at home.
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:You don't have to go anywhere, you can
stay in Canada, you can stay in Ontario.
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:And Sudbury has always been an excellent
destination for a rubber tire market.
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:We're only four hours north of
Toronto and the GTA, you know, London,
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:Kitchener isn't too much farther
than that, Eastern Ontario too.
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:So, I wouldn't call rubber tire
necessarily a trend, but I do think
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:lately we can capitalize on that interest
to explore what you've got at home.
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:And we're also sort of the gateway
to northern communities, right?
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:We work really well with folks in
this part of the world and you can
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:build some fantastic itineraries.
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:I mean, for a long time I've been part
of the Georgian Bay coastal route,
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:which is a sort of case in point,
early stage product development effort.
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:We're not far from Temiskaming
Loop, those kinds of things.
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:So I think the idea that you don't
have to go far, Sudbury is very
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:well positioned to seize on that and
together, in collaboration with our
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:partners, we'll be pursuing that.
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:When it comes to other areas of focus,
I mean, culinary tourism, again, after
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:so many years, is it still a trend?
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:But I do think we have some great
offerings, uh, for folks who are
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:looking for delicious experiences.
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:I think indigenous tourism, you know,
I've been a big part of the Indigenous
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:Tourism Ontario group for years now.
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:And the potential there is huge.
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:And I think quintessentially that's
those the, you know, the original
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:storytellers and the original experiences.
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:And so talk about authentic.
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:I mean, I think there's really
huge potential there too, so.
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:Karen Peacock: Yeah, our
original guides, right?
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:Can you tell us, you mentioned a
little bit about filming and of
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:course Shoresy and, uh, Letterkenny.
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:Can you tell us about the
history of filming in Sudbury
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:and where it sits today?
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:Meredith Armstrong: Sure.
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:I, you know, it's funny looking
back, there are some cult films, cult
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:Canadian films that have something to
do with Sudbury here and there, right?
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:Bruce McDonald's made some films.
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:But I think one that people would remember
early stage would be Men With Brooms.
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:I, that's what came to mind for me.
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:So that was the first cult film
with a very low budget, that was the
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:first sort of production that came
in that used services and things.
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:But I would say another really key
point was in:
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:Film Studio set up the studio here in
Sudbury, and NOHFC has a film credit
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:that actually supports productions on
their, what we call the northern spend.
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:So the more they can spend by hiring
folks locally, using local services,
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:the more they can access that fund.
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:That's been a game changer.
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:We wouldn't be here really without that.
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:And then over time we've had
some really big productions.
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:V Wars was one of our largest ever.
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:Hallmark films.
388
:Those are some great job opportunities.
389
:So over that, say 15 years or so,
we've built up a really strong crew
390
:base in Sudbury, but also I would
say across northeastern region.
391
:So you can come to Sudbury with an
idea and sort of a small group ready
392
:to do a production and find experienced
local people to work on the crew.
393
:A lot of it is location driven, but
we've got the studio space, we've got
394
:craft, we've got, you know, carpenters
and all those kinds of things.
395
:So that ecosystem is stronger
now than it ever has been.
396
:And I think, you know, as I
said, Letterkenny and Shoresy has
397
:been a really wonderful thing.
398
:Shoresy in particular because Sudbury
plays itself rather than, you know,
399
:subbing in for New York or we've got one
of those downtowns that can be elsewhere.
400
:Karen Peacock: Yeah.
401
:Any community.
402
:Meredith Armstrong: That's right.
403
:So, yeah.
404
:I really like film because
again, it's, I mean, talk about
405
:diversifying your economy.
406
:It's a long way from our mining
roots, but it's brought in creative
407
:workers and added to our vibrancy.
408
:So, yeah, I love working
with the film industry.
409
:Karen Peacock: Wow, fantastic.
410
:So here's another question.
411
:I mean, we've touched
a little bit on COVID.
412
:Is the City of Greater Sudbury, is it,
or has it been rebounding since COVID-19.
413
:Meredith Armstrong: Uh, so if you looked
at our labor market numbers, we have
414
:fully recovered the jobs lost during COVID
by, you know, statistical information.
415
:Karen Peacock: Great
news story right there.
416
:Meredith Armstrong: As I mentioned, our
accommodation sector I would say still
417
:had challenges but wasn't necessarily
hit as hard as other destinations.
418
:Uh, the fact that our phone rings
within the economic development team
419
:regularly with site selection folks
looking at new hotel properties.
420
:You know, you don't build a hotel
without a heck of a lot of research
421
:into the market and the feasibility.
422
:So the fact that, you know, I think
that's a really good indicator.
423
:I think it's changed how people travel,
and so I think there are things that are a
424
:challenge for Northern Ontario as a whole.
425
:I think how people make their
decisions has changed, right?
426
:We, there was a long time
where we focused on our booking
427
:engine for hotels and packaging.
428
:And I find for us, it's not necessarily
the way most people wanna travel.
429
:I think there's a certain level of
stumble upon, I think people want to
430
:discover things as they go , and having
ready made tourism experiences has always
431
:been the crux of the matter for tourism.
432
:You know, it's very expensive for
a small operator to stand by a lake
433
:with a fleet of canoes hoping someone
wants to come for a two hour paddle.
434
:I think there is the desire
for that, but the seasonality
435
:has always been a challenge.
436
:The numbers aren't necessarily always
consistent, and I think that was a
437
:preexisting challenge, but COVID made
that a bit tougher, really, because people
438
:wanna know what they're getting into
and maybe they make decisions closer to
439
:their departure date in some ways, which
can make it harder for an entrepreneur.
440
:Karen Peacock: So not planning
out so much in advance anymore.
441
:And if more people are traveling
by road to get to where they
442
:are, it makes it easier.
443
:Meredith Armstrong: Right.
444
:Pack up a bag and go.
445
:We are not Venice, or, you
know, we're not Paris, where
446
:you're, this is a bucket list.
447
:We just aren't, and I think we, not
just Sudbury, but I would think Ontario,
448
:a lot of our destinations suffer from
trying to be all things to all people.
449
:And so finding the niche and
working it is, I think, the secret.
450
:Karen Peacock: Okay.
451
:Great.
452
:Talking a little bit about workforce
development, can you tell us about the
453
:Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot
project, which Sudbury took part in?
454
:Meredith Armstrong: Yeah.
455
:The, I think the Rural and Northern
Immigration Pilot program has been a gift.
456
:It's a program of Immigration
Canada, and the pilot program we
457
:geared up for it in 2018, 2019.
458
:It started in 2019.
459
:We really got it going sort of 2020, 21.
460
:And Sudbury alone has welcomed
2,700 newcomers to our community.
461
:Karen Peacock: Incredible.
462
:Meredith Armstrong: So that's our
candidates as well as their families.
463
:A lot of them came with spouses and
kids, and actually our surveying more
464
:recently, sorry, uh, sort of within
the first three years, indicates
465
:around 93, 95% of them are still here.
466
:Karen Peacock: Really?
467
:Meredith Armstrong: Uh, so
it's been a really good.
468
:So the whole point, it's
economic immigration.
469
:The candidate needs to have a permanent
job offer, in this first pilot, and the
470
:intention to reside in the community.
471
:And the exciting thing is Immigration
Canada recognized the success of
472
:the model, which was based on an
Atlantic Canada experience a few years
473
:ago that was also made permanent.
474
:So they've just launched the Rural
Community Immigration Program.
475
:So it's RCIP.
476
:And there's also a Francophone
Community Immigration program.
477
:So those are also pilots.
478
:We're still, we're part of this
one, we're actually gearing up now.
479
:We expect it to launch sort
of late spring, early summer.
480
:And it will continue to help us attract
people who intend to stay and have a
481
:job and wanna be part of the community.
482
:So it's been, uh, yeah, huge.
483
:Our last census showed like 4% growth
in Sudbury, which is, you know, for
484
:Northern Ontario that's significant.
485
:Karen Peacock: Yeah.
486
:It truly is.
487
:Especially, you know, for many
years our population was stagnant
488
:and potentially declining.
489
:So now we're seeing it grow.
490
:Meredith Armstrong: That's right.
491
:And so I mean, international students
have been an important part of that.
492
:For the first few years, they
became a really important pool
493
:to look for candidates because
they often go into permanent jobs
494
:coming out of post-secondary.
495
:But now we're seeing folks
coming for the program.
496
:The whole point is that in Canada,
the immigration gateways are generally
497
:Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, and
people get to those cities and stay.
498
:And all kinds of great rural
and northern communities all
499
:across Canada need new people.
500
:And we know we have very low
unemployment, so there's lots
501
:of jobs there that need help.
502
:So, it's ticking a lot of boxes for us.
503
:Karen Peacock: No kidding.
504
:So how are you, how does the
program manage to redirect people or
505
:recruit them to Sudbury as opposed
to having them go into Toronto?
506
:Meredith Armstrong: So because it's
focused on jobs, a lot of the work
507
:is done because that individual's
looking for a specific job.
508
:In the program, we have to identify our
priority sectors and in this iteration
509
:of the program, it will be very much
focused on the employers as a gate
510
:for the candidate to come forward.
511
:So what it does is give the
candidate a community approval for
512
:a pathway to permanent residency.
513
:So there's, I mean, immigration
is incredibly complicated.
514
:There are different paths to
gaining permanent residency or PR.
515
:This one basically gives you a path,
uh, I don't wanna say fast track
516
:because it's not necessarily faster
than other pathways, but it does
517
:provide a real solution for those
who have the criteria met and might
518
:not fit within another pathway.
519
:So, so far, there are newcomers
looking for any opportunity.
520
:So we haven't had to
do a ton of marketing.
521
:We have recently launched a campaign
called Move to Sudbury, and so a lot
522
:of it is targeting newcomers, but it's
also targeting anyone who's not from
523
:here who wants to come and live here.
524
:So, um, we're trying to make it easy
for people to see themselves here.
525
:So everything from, you know, where
to live, what neighborhoods are
526
:like, school boards, real estate,
healthcare, all of those things
527
:are trying to put it in one place.
528
:And I can tell you the tourism assets
are crucial to doing a good job of
529
:that campaign because that lifestyle,
like all tourism assets that help
530
:us promote the talent attraction.
531
:Karen Peacock: Right.
532
:It's quality of life, it
really boils down to.
533
:Meredith Armstrong: I always said, it's
a picture of a bicycle with a bottle
534
:of wine and a baguette in a basket.
535
:Like there, that's what, you
know, it's like a stock photo.
536
:But we've got, like, I've had
people ask, are those stock photos?
537
:And like, Nope, that's how it looks.
538
:Yep.
539
:You can go for a walk at sunset on a
lake and we just take it for granted.
540
:But so when it comes to workforce
development, because Sudbury has such low
541
:unemployment, workforce is top of mind
for almost entirely our whole team and
542
:the Rural and Northern Immigration Pilot
program has provided a tool in a broader
543
:toolkit for working with employers,
connecting them to the right people, and
544
:helping to grow the economy that way.
545
:Karen Peacock: Wow, really interesting.
546
:Okay, I think we've just covered
how Sudbury's population and
547
:workforce has grown through this.
548
:Is there anything else
you wanna add to that?
549
:Meredith Armstrong: I think it's
worth noting that we are also
550
:recognized as part of the Francophone
Community Immigration Pilot.
551
:So that's focused on Francophone
individuals working with
552
:Francophone employers.
553
:Uh.
554
:You know, we have a very
strong Francophone culture
555
:and community here in Sudbury.
556
:Other communities in Northern Ontario
also have the program, and I'm
557
:interested to see how that transpires.
558
:Like we take, we play a key role,
obviously, but I was mentioning how
559
:international students have spurred
new grocery stores, new restaurants.
560
:I've always been fascinated by how
Sudbury's Francophone community is
561
:all around us, but not super visible.
562
:You know, Place des Arts, which is
our multi-use facility downtown, was
563
:really important to sort of stake that
presence of the Francophone and the
564
:Franco-Ontarian culture in Sudbury.
565
:We don't have a really great
Franco-Ontarian restaurant or bakery, you
566
:know, if you want tarte au sucre, you
have to know somebody who's making it.
567
:I mean, Italian restaurants, we've
got lots of those and there's lots
568
:of, um, but I just think, wouldn't it
be interesting if that spurs some new
569
:offerings, if it comes off successfully.
570
:The numbers are smaller than
the Rural Community Immigration
571
:Program, but the potential is
there to work with that community.
572
:So we're pretty excited.
573
:Karen Peacock: Yeah, absolutely.
574
:Can you share for our listeners
what percentage of the
575
:population is Francophone?
576
:I know it used to sit around 33?
577
:Meredith Armstrong: Depending on how
you look at it, without having the
578
:latest census data in front of me, yeah.
579
:I mean, I think 26 to 30%.
580
:It's funny because when you ask
folks if they are Francophone,
581
:you get different answers, right?
582
:There's lots of people who speak French
with their family at home, but probably
583
:don't conduct their business in French.
584
:But if you get on a bus or you go to the
mall or you go to a restaurant, we know
585
:at any given time somebody's gonna be
having a lively conversation en français.
586
:So, yeah, I think generally we about
a third would identify as Francophone.
587
:Karen Peacock: Okay.
588
:Thank you.
589
:What remains a top priority for
the City of Greater Sudbury in
590
:attracting people to Sudbury?
591
:So I guess in terms of jobs and in
growing the population, what does the
592
:City of Greater Sudbury see as sort
of the main need for recruitment,
593
:or where's the greatest skill gap?
594
:Meredith Armstrong: As we develop the
framework for the new, the Rural Community
595
:Immigration Pilot, we're actually gonna
have to formalize priority sectors.
596
:I would say in mining supply and
service, you often hear that Sudbury
597
:has a higher per capita population
of very specialized engineers,
598
:which I always think is interesting.
599
:You know, we have over 300
companies in the mining supply
600
:and service space in Sudbury.
601
:There's about 14,000 people working
in that sector, and you'll hear
602
:a lot about the different jobs.
603
:A lot of them are highly
specialized, highly technical.
604
:Uh, I would say healthcare
is another, like everyone.
605
:We are actually doing pretty
well when it comes to family
606
:physicians, but there's still a gap.
607
:Um, you'll hear a lot about personal
support workers, nurses, medical staff.
608
:And then of course, we have been very
lucky to have an international student
609
:population who are some of the most
hardworking, practical folks who will do
610
:anything to just stay here, work hard.
611
:You know, I always think
we're very lucky to have that.
612
:These are people who are often going to
school, often living in houses with lots
613
:of other people, and doing a lot of work.
614
:And sometimes they are engineers
or they're very highly educated
615
:in their home countries.
616
:I know of more than one mining supply
and service company where they've
617
:been known to go to some of our large
retailers and introduce themselves to
618
:folks working on the floor and find out
that they are, you know, highly qualified
619
:at X, Y, Z, and get them into jobs.
620
:I mean, that's not the norm, but those
kinds of interactions happen too.
621
:So I would say, yeah, healthcare, not
just mining but mining supply and service,
622
:which is a pretty broad array of jobs.
623
:And then hospitality.
624
:Yeah.
625
:So I mean, hotels have a heck of a
time getting everything from management
626
:to house housekeepers these days.
627
:And restaurants.
628
:Karen Peacock: There still remains
a real labour shortage there.
629
:Meredith Armstrong: Absolutely.
630
:Yeah.
631
:Karen Peacock: So labor shortages
have been ongoing for a number of
632
:years and especially within the
tourism and hospitality industry.
633
:And we, we've known, you know, that
there was challenges coming forward,
634
:but not just within the tourism sector.
635
:It has been within different sectors.
636
:What are the challenges in recruiting
and retaining staff within Sudbury?
637
:And maybe if you can touch upon,
you know, things like living wage
638
:accommodations because you know, we
know that that's a huge challenge.
639
:Work-life balance.
640
:If you can maybe touch upon those.
641
:Meredith Armstrong: Sure.
642
:I think a strength that Sudbury has
is a pretty accessible, affordable
643
:standard of living, but that
depends on where you're coming from.
644
:So I am reminded that we often
compare ourselves to Southern
645
:Ontario, so our houses are cheaper.
646
:I think our average home price,
more recently, was about $434,000.
647
:But if you're looking for a house,
you're not necessarily going to easily
648
:find a house for that kind of cost.
649
:And if you're coming from Northern
Ontario, that's more expensive
650
:than where you're coming from.
651
:So I just, I put that within context,
but it's still cheaper than where
652
:the bulk of our provincial population
lives, which is Southern Ontario.
653
:Work-life balance, you are not
gonna spend 90 minutes on a
654
:highway commuting to and from work.
655
:Like, that's just, you know, I was
talking to someone the other day that was
656
:complaining about a seven minute commute.
657
:Well, let's keep it in perspective.
658
:I think housing is top
of mind for everyone.
659
:We have a very low vacancy rate
when it comes to rental properties.
660
:That's really important because
people who are coming to Sudbury.
661
:Um, many, especially if they're younger
or coming from further away, they're gonna
662
:rent something before they buy a house.
663
:So not being able to find, uh,
apartments, that's top of mind.
664
:We call it the missing middle.
665
:We really don't have a lot.
666
:So the city actually
has a housing strategy.
667
:We work, uh, economic development
works closely with our development
668
:team, planning, building services
to make sure we're doing what we
669
:can to reduce the barriers and
help get projects off the ground,
670
:multi-residential projects as well.
671
:When we're recruiting, um, often,
especially through the immigration pilot,
672
:and post-secondaries and other jobs,
when they come with a family, a spouse
673
:and kids, often it's easier to see the
retention because as anyone with a family
674
:knows, once you've put down roots, it
tends to, you meet people through
675
:your kids and all that kind of thing.
676
:We've learned a lot through our physician
recruitment work over many, many years.
677
:It's really a personal touch.
678
:So, you know, city tours, finding
employment for a spouse when one
679
:is a doctor or a nurse practitioner
or a primary healthcare provider.
680
:Schools is a huge thing too, so really
customizing how you would speak to those
681
:individuals and how you help them sort of
see themselves reflected in the community.
682
:Yeah, so I think we've really learned
that there's about a two year window.
683
:So if you see that they have made it
through the first two years, the first
684
:two winters included, generally we
see that people stay for a longer term.
685
:Karen Peacock: So there's
some stickiness to it.
686
:Meredith Armstrong: Yes.
687
:Karen Peacock: That's great.
688
:We're getting close to the
end of our conversation.
689
:I'd like to ask you though, what do you
like most about working in tourism and
690
:working in the role that you're in now?
691
:What do you love about it?
692
:Meredith Armstrong: I have often
said that tourism is like, they used
693
:to use it for the Peace Corps, but
the toughest job you'll ever love.
694
:I, you know, I think when tourism
is done well, it can change lives.
695
:And there's not a lot of other industries
that can say that the same way.
696
:A really amazing experience you have
on a trip can change your perspective,
697
:change your life, that kind of thing.
698
:And when it's done well with
the whole, you know, taking the
699
:village and doing that, it can make
a really interesting community.
700
:I love working with people who could
see themselves in that industry.
701
:They have the vision, they have
the attention to detail, and
702
:they wanna do it really well.
703
:Those are just really incredible humans,
I think when they get it all right, and,
704
:um, I think tourism is one of the things
that makes a community really resilient
705
:because those are dispersed jobs within
many small organizations and businesses.
706
:It's not like a big warehouse
run by, you know, one of those
707
:billionaires that can just make a
decision with a stroke of the pen.
708
:And so a strong tourism industry,
while it can be impacted by things
709
:like COVID and SARS way back in the
day, it can also rebound in a way.
710
:And we've seen communities all
over the place sort of remake
711
:themselves with tourism involved.
712
:So I just think it's a
fascinating industry to work with.
713
:And like I say, as I get into other areas
of economic development like mining,
714
:like development, I really come back to
the core pieces that make our community
715
:amazing and their tourism assets.
716
:Yeah.
717
:So I think I just see it as an
underpinning and I'm just committed
718
:to helping people understand,
who aren't usually in this
719
:conversation, or in that realm.
720
:When they see and when they get it, they
have a new appreciation for how important
721
:the industry is, and we keep fighting the
good fight when it comes to getting the
722
:attention that that industry deserves.
723
:Karen Peacock: Yeah.
724
:Great.
725
:One more question.
726
:I'm curious, what is one of
your most memorable visitor
727
:experiences that you've had?
728
:Meredith Armstrong: Wow.
729
:That's a great question.
730
:I mean, there have been some
really interesting experiences.
731
:Years ago, I was invited to take part
in a program with Global Affairs Canada
732
:to a region in Peru, up in the Andes.
733
:And the idea was that they were taking
Indigenous communities in areas that
734
:have been very reliant on mining and
where the mine was maybe not going
735
:to be there forever, and helping
them understand how to use tourism
736
:as a way to pivot their economies.
737
:And this is sort of like
almost pre-tourism, right?
738
:Like explaining what it is, and
with the group I was with, we had an
739
:opportunity to go way up in the Andes.
740
:I mean, in one valley where we were, there
were 37 different dialects of Quechua.
741
:Karen Peacock: Wow.
742
:Meredith Armstrong: So like, the old
ways were still the ways of doing things.
743
:And we had an experience of
being welcomed by this group.
744
:They didn't even speak Spanish, you know,
like digging a hole in the earth and
745
:building the traditional pachamama, like
the oven, and sharing what they had.
746
:And just sitting outside surrounded by
mountains with this community of people.
747
:Who really had nothing to gain
other than just being completely
748
:welcoming and open to learning.
749
:And that was a pretty
incredible experience for me.
750
:And seeing that they were interested in
what we had to say about how what they
751
:were doing is a tourism experience.
752
:And with some thoughtful tweaks
and additions can be a product that
753
:you could charge money for, and
yet don't lose the authenticity
754
:and the meaningful way of doing it.
755
:For me, that was sort of fundamentally
the sort of philosophy behind
756
:tourism that was pretty memorable.
757
:Karen Peacock: It sounds really memorable.
758
:That sense of place that
being able to tell this story.
759
:Meredith Armstrong: You can't do
that anywhere else in the world.
760
:Like, it's that spot in that
moment with those people.
761
:And that's why you can't underestimate
the power of that experience.
762
:Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.
763
:Yeah.
764
:Okay.
765
:I've asked you a lot of questions, so
I'm gonna, I'm gonna turn it over to you.
766
:Is there any final thoughts or
anything I haven't asked you that
767
:you might like to comment on?
768
:Meredith Armstrong: I think one of the
things we didn't talk about when it
769
:comes to workforce is, I think there's
an opportunity to recognize that for
770
:generations of Canadians, first jobs
were jobs in the tourism industry.
771
:And, you have said before, I think every
person out there should, at some point
772
:in their lives and their careers, make
a bed, clean a toilet, serve a meal,
773
:greet people they don't know, have
those interactions because the learning
774
:about humanity, the humility it gives
you when you're doing a good job, the
775
:honor in a job well done, no matter what
that job is, I just think people forget
776
:that most of us, without even realizing
it, have had a tourism experience
777
:on that side of the interaction.
778
:And these are good jobs.
779
:I mean, my own experience in
these kinds of jobs, working front
780
:desk, working on a boat on the St.
781
:Lawrence, like these were incredible
experiences when I was young.
782
:It helped me see different parts of
Canada and grounded me in how people are
783
:and how we should be with each other.
784
:So I think there's something
powerful about that.
785
:Karen Peacock: Some real
intrinsic values and principles.
786
:Meredith Armstrong: Absolutely.
787
:Karen Peacock: That we learn as humans.
788
:Meredith Armstrong: Yeah.
789
:Keeps you humble.
790
:It's sort of like, think of
those, um, where they put the boss
791
:of the company like in shipping
and receiving or something.
792
:I think everyone should have to
do, should have to experience that.
793
:Okay, it's time for your placement as
a housekeeper in a hotel or something.
794
:So I just think, I can think
of a few folks who would
795
:benefit from that experience.
796
:Karen Peacock: That's great.
797
:Uh, okay.
798
:Well, thank you so much
again for coming in person.
799
:This is, it's wonderful to share the
space and it's been a great conversation.
800
:It's lovely to have you.
801
:Meredith Armstrong: Absolutely.
802
:My pleasure.
803
:Thanks, Karen.
804
:Karen Peacock: Next time on Let's
Talk Northern Ontario Tourism, I chat
805
:with Justin Lafontaine, co-founder
of the Tourism Innovation Lab, an
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:incubator for tourism businesses.
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:We chat about the Spark program
and how it has helped Northern
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:Ontario tourism businesses get
seed funding and mentorship.
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:Follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcast
to make sure you don't miss it.
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:Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is an
initiative of Tourism Excellence North and
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:recorded on the traditional territories
of the Anishinaabek and the Mushkegowuk.
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:It is produced by Storied Places
Media with support from Erica Richard,
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:Naza Obasi, and Gillian McCullough.
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:I'm Karen Peacock.
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:Thanks for listening.