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Recruiting the Next Generation of Tourism Workers
Episode 10 • 27th May 2025 • Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism • Tourism Excellence North
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In this episode of Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism, host Karen Peacock sits down with Lawrence Foster, an instructor with Sault College’s Adventure Recreation and Parks program. They discuss the kinds of people registering for the program, what these in-demand graduates want from employers, and Lawrence’s advice for recruiting during a workforce shortage. Lawrence also shares why the producer of the hit show Mantracker called him up and gave him a job.

  • 01:05 Meet Lawrence Foster: From Law Student to Mantracker to çInstructor
  • 06:26 Inside the Adventure Recreation and Parks Program
  • 09:10 Student Backgrounds
  • 15:08 Tourism Career Opportunities
  • 18:47 Advice For Owners That Are Succession Planning
  • 21:10 Opportunities Students Are Looking For
  • 23:46 What Students Want From Employers
  • 25:22 Awareness of Government and Non Profit Jobs in Tourism
  • 28:11 Recruitment Advice For Business Owners and Managers
  • 32:01 Customer Service Training
  • 35:52 Filling Education Gaps With Volunteer Experience

About Sault College and the Adventure Recreation and Parks Program

About the podcast

Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is a podcast for tourism operators and industry stakeholders featuring experts who understand what it means to run a tourism business or organization here in Northern Ontario. Through casual conversations, you’ll learn about cutting edge topics like AI marketing, Cruise Ship Tourism, and trends that are shaking up the industry. Plus, you can tune in  while driving or doing chores.

For even more  insights that’ll help you grow your business, organization, or community, connect with Tourism Excellence North, which is part of Destination Northern Ontario:

If you like podcasts, DNO has another one called Destination: Northern Ontario. Season 1 is for people thinking about buying a tourism business, and Season 2 has helpful advice for new tourism operators. 

 Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is an initiative of Tourism Excellence North and is recorded on the traditional territories of the Anishinaabek and the Mushkegowuk. It is hosted by Karen Peacock and produced by Storied Places Media with support from Erica Richard, Naza Obasi, and Gillian McCullough.

Transcripts

Lawrence Foster:

There's not one of my students that doesn't have two or three

2

:

potential job offers upon graduation

or even for their summer co op.

3

:

Karen Peacock: Welcome to Let's Talk

Northern Ontario Tourism a podcast

4

:

for tourism operators and industry

stakeholders featuring experts who

5

:

actually understand what it means

to run a tourism business or tourism

6

:

organization here in Northern Ontario.

7

:

I'm Karen Peacock.

8

:

In this episode, I chat with Lawrence

Foster, an instructor with Sault College's

9

:

Adventure Recreation, and Parks program.

10

:

We talk about the kinds of people

registering for the program, what these

11

:

in-demand graduates want from employers,

and Lawrence's advice for recruiting

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:

tourism workers amid a workforce shortage.

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:

Lawrence also shares why the

producer of the hit show, Mantracker

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:

called him up and gave him a job.

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:

He's got lots of fascinating stories.

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:

I hope you enjoy.

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:

Welcome, Lawrence.

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:

I'm very much looking forward

to our conversation today.

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:

If we can start off with, if you

can tell me a little bit about your

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:

experience and background teaching

tourism and observing students enter

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:

the workforce, and the workforce itself.

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:

Lawrence Foster: Sure thing.

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:

Thanks, Karen.

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:

It's really nice to be here and I

appreciate you taking the time to come

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:

and visit us here at Sault College.

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:

So, really, I think my tourism experience

began here at Sault College almost

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:

30 years ago, if you can believe it.

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:

I was a student taking Law and Security

here, but my passion was rock climbing.

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:

So I was hired as an assistant guide

to come and teach rock climbing

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:

to the Adventure Recreation and

Parks group that was going to

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:

school at the same time as me.

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:

I had some certifications and some

training and it was a real fun opportunity

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:

for me to sort of branch out and made me

realize law is not for me, I want to do

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:

something else more involved with tourism.

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:

Karen Peacock: A little bit

of destiny at work there.

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:

Lawrence Foster: Yeah.

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:

So, after graduating Sault College, I

went on and I did a geology degree and

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a teaching degree, but I worked for a

number of years as a professional athlete.

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:

And I traveled around the world

doing these large, multi day,

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:

multi sport expedition races.

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:

And I would get a chance to travel to

different small communities and really

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see how tourism interacted with the

racers, with the race organizers, and how

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it impacted their communities, whether

they're, you know, getting electricity

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in for the first time in Brazil to this

village as part of the race package so

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that they could have, you know, medical

supplies and freezers of different

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foods and that the racers might need.

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But in conjunction with that,

I designed races across Canada.

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So I've worked from coast to coast to

coast in Canada, bringing races, these

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multi sport races, to small communities.

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And I really enjoyed working with

these small communities because

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you can get so much done in such a

short period of time, and, you know,

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the people are always so helpful.

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So, it was a really great experience

for me to understand the inner

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workings of what does a community want?

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What do the supporting companies that

we hire, the guides that we use, the

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:

whitewater guides, the fishing boat guides

that shuttle in supplies, the people

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:

working in medical, all the peripheral

industries that are involved with tourism,

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how they came together and how they work.

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:

So I brought that to Sault College

and have been sort of passing

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that on to my students ever since.

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Karen Peacock: What fantastic

experience and knowledge you must

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be able to pass on to your students.

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Lawrence Foster: I hope so.

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Karen Peacock: I would think so.

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I would think so.

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I mean, just going from law and

security and then, you know, jumping

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into what you have is incredible.

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:

And so how did you end

up back at Sault College?

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Lawrence Foster: Well, I was

teaching full time in Ottawa, and

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I really enjoyed living in Ottawa.

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It's a great community.

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My fiancé and I were there.

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And I got a phone call from

Mantracker Productions.

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And if you remember the

television show Mantracker?

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Karen Peacock: I do.

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:

Yes.

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Lawrence Foster: So, Ihor Macijiwsky was

the producer of that show, and he had

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read about me in a magazine, and needed

somebody that could design a chase course,

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capture it on film, do the safety, and

coordinate and liaise with the communities

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that we were going to run this show in.

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He called me and, you know, we did that

show for seven years across Canada.

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We went into the U.S.

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We were looking at going into different

countries, and so I really got a chance,

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again, to work with all these smaller

communities, which we really enjoyed

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working with, and seeing these really

natural places where I got to design

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these chase courses through natural

wilderness, but highlighting some

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really spectacular sites along the way.

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Karen Peacock: That sounds incredible.

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So, how did that link up to Sault College?

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Lawrence Foster: Well, when I was in

Ottawa, that became my new full time

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job, but we quickly realized that we

could probably do the whole season in one

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:

summer with some creative holiday time.

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So I then got offered the job

at Sault College teaching here,

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:

and I was able to do both.

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Karen Peacock: Wow.

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Lawrence Foster: I didn't have kids yet,

so, you know, I would finish teaching a

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class, I would drive to the airport and

I'd be on a plane off to Newfoundland and

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I'd run a chase course over a weekend,

be back on the plane, be back in the

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classroom on Tuesday, and it was a really

fun experience, but not sustainable.

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So eventually we knew that, you know,

the show is only going to go for so long.

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Seven years was a great run.

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I managed to bring all that

experience back to Sault College

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and I haven't looked back since.

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It's just been great being

here at Sault College.

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Karen Peacock: Oh, fantastic.

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Talking about Sault College, can you

tell us about the Adventure Recreation

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and Parks program that you teach?

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Lawrence Foster: Sure, so, the Adventure

Recreation and Parks program at Sault

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College is really designed, I liken

it to a leadership program with a high

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:

standard of academics, in the outdoors.

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:

So we get to take our students who

want to have a career in the outdoors

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and show them a wide variety of

opportunities, give them a wide scope

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:

of education with a high degree of

academic standards, and of course, my

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:

favourite, just some amazing adventures.

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Karen Peacock: Yes.

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Lawrence Foster: My students are coming

in, they're walking away with upwards

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of nine different certifications that

will help them within the tourism

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industry, but also in life, and

help them hone and develop their own

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:

skills, find their passion, and then

go forward and build on it from there.

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Karen Peacock: Okay, wonderful.

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:

Can you dive in for us a little

bit in terms of those nine

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certifications that they might receive?

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And, I know you mentioned it's a broad

education they're receiving, but maybe

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:

break that down for us a little bit.

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:

Let us know what it is

that they are learning.

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Like, is it everything from how

to manage a business to tour

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guiding, and everything in between?

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Lawrence Foster: It's

everything in between.

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So it is, you know, from the academic

point of view, they're learning

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about trees and shrubs, the natural

environment, how things interact.

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If you bring my students out,

they will be able to identify

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any tree and shrub along the way.

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:

So interpretive guiding is a really big

part, but also understanding how those

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things interact with different habitat.

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So, you know, looking at hunting

guides, or people that just want

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a nice wilderness experience.

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They get a great education with fish

and wildlife as well, so some of our

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:

students go on and work with outfitters

that might specialize in that.

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:

Along with that, they're getting

certifications on the water.

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:

So they get six different Paddle

Canada certifications in canoe,

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:

kayak, stand up paddleboard, so

they're proficient in most watercraft.

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:

They're going to get their personal

watercraft license as well so

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:

that they can drive a boat or a

jet ski or something like that.

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:

Karen Peacock: Okay.

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Lawrence Foster: But also, you know, we

teach them wilderness advanced first aid,

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so they're going to be able to take care

of themselves and other people in the

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wilderness and use those skills to help

with body management and sort of take care

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:

of problems before they become problems.

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Karen Peacock: Okay.

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Great.

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So, I mean, given the type of program,

what does your typical or average

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student profile or background look like?

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Where are most students coming from?

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Lawrence Foster: That's a great

question because it is a wide spectrum.

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Karen Peacock: Okay.

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Lawrence Foster: Years ago,

people would say, you know,

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:

how are the kids in your class?

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Well, they're not kids.

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We are seeing a lot of second

career students moving from Southern

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Ontario, coming to Sault Ste.

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:

Marie, getting this wilderness and

leadership experience and then branching

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:

out, starting their own companies.

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We're also still seeing those younger

students out of high school that, you

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:

know, they want to work in the outdoors,

but they're not sure in what capacity.

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:

Well, we give them a broad spectrum from

forestry to natural environment technician

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:

or technologist, fish and wildlife, and

adventure, recreation, tourism, and parks.

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:

So they can come in and say, Whoa, I

really like this aspect of the course.

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:

That's my passion.

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That's the path I'm going to go.

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You know, Sault Ste.

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Marie, it's a Northern Ontario

town and has a lot of opportunity

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for both of those people.

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There's a chance to come

here and start a new life.

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Karen Peacock: Right.

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Lawrence Foster: Some of our students

have sold their house in Southern Ontario,

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come up here, bought waterfront property.

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Karen Peacock: Really?

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Lawrence Foster: They've started a

business running tours right out of

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their own house on Lake Superior.

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You know, and they've gotten

grants from our tourism board

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to be able to purchase a bus.

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And now they help support

other tourism operators.

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In town, they support our school, they

support all sorts of events and happenings

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in the community, and they're loving it.

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Karen Peacock: Incredible.

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Lawrence Foster: They're so busy and the

best part is they have a huge pool of a

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workforce because they have their alumni

who come back now and when they have

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their high season or the busy season,

they know they have 20 people they can

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call to say, Hey, we need ten people

for this week, and are you available?

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Karen Peacock: Yeah.

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That's incredible.

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Lawrence Foster: So

it's really nice to see.

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Karen Peacock: And so is that

just a one off or are you

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:

seeing that multiple times over?

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Lawrence Foster: We're seeing

that multiple times over, yes.

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I've seen people that are my age

coming into this and starting their

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own Indigenous tour business, which

is great to see, and they're getting

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support from the community as well,

and their business is taking off.

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We're also seeing second career students

who, you know, they may have worked

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in a factory for a number of years and

they're like, I need to be out in nature.

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Not sure what I want to do, I'm

going to go and get some experience

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and help me make my decision.

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Karen Peacock: And when they're in

the program, and you mentioned, you

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know, this gives them the ability to

sort of try different streams out.

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Once they choose something, if they

want to head toward parks or fish

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and wildlife, does the program then

help them to further focus on that?

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Lawrence Foster: Thanks for asking.

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Yeah, so the Adventure Recreation

and Parks program that we offer

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gives the students their diploma.

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Now they're able to go and work in a

park, they're able to go help manage

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a business that works with tourism.

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Many of our students decide to

come back, and I always encourage

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the young entrepreneurs to

maybe take a business course.

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Karen Peacock: Yes.

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Lawrence Foster: Other students

that find their passion, you know,

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maybe they want to work in forestry,

well they can come back and get a

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second diploma in only one year.

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So rather than taking a full two

years to get their second diploma,

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because they've already taken Adventure

Recreation and Parks, they can now

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get that diploma in one year and

be working immediately afterwards.

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Karen Peacock: Wonderful.

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And so the Adventure Recreation

and Parks Program, that's

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a two year diploma program?

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Lawrence Foster: That is a

two year diploma program.

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Karen Peacock: Okay, great.

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Lawrence Foster: I should mention

there is one other type of student

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that we're seeing coming to see us.

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Karen Peacock: Okay.

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Lawrence Foster: Uh, we've had graduate

students, you know, they have either a

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master's or a degree, and they're coming

back to us to get the field experience and

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the wilderness savvy to be able to now go

and work and collect data in the field.

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And it's been a growing part of our, uh,

student numbers in the past few years.

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Karen Peacock: Wow.

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And so a master's typically in tourism?

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Lawrence Foster: They might be working in

tourism, they might be working in science.

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it really depends on the student,

what they're chasing, what their

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dream is, and what their focus is.

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So we have, we currently right now have

a student that had finished off their

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Master's in, I think it was Dendrology,

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Karen Peacock: I don't know what that is.

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Lawrence Foster: Study

of trees and leaves.

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Karen Peacock: Okay.

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Thank you.

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Lawrence Foster: And she took our

program because she hadn't had a

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lot of field time with her program.

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So yes, she was in the lab, she

could identify the twigs, the trees,

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Karen Peacock: Right.

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Lawrence Foster: But had never

seen the actual tree in the wild.

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So we were able to bring

them out and show them that.

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Karen Peacock: Which is fantastic.

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I mean, university, and that was my

path, it gives you the theory, but

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not the practical application, right?

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And I can only assume, I mean, I live in

Northern Ontario, I have a camp, and if

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I want to go out in my canoe and go and

identify tree species along the lake,

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if I didn't know how to paddle a canoe,

that would prevent me from doing so.

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So I'm assuming that, you know,

your program, with all the varied

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certificates even, just provide a

real ground level of experience.

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Lawrence Foster: It certainly is a

confidence builder for our students.

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Karen Peacock: Yeah, yeah,

definitely, I can see that.

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So, travel and tourism, it's the world's

fastest growing sector, offering a wide

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variety of education, which you've just

been sharing with us, and a wide variety

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of career opportunities for young people.

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So, in your perspective, is there

a good general awareness among

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young people of the tourism career

opportunities that are out there?

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Lawrence Foster: I think it's a,

it can sometimes be a hard sell.

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I don't know if they have the worldliness

and the experience, especially some

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of the younger students coming in.

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You know, they've seen things on

Instagram, they've seen things out there.

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But, as you said, over a hundred billion

dollars contributed to the Canadian

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economy just last year from tourism.

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One million jobs directly

related to tourism.

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The scope is so wide and so

broad it's hard to fathom all

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the different jobs out there.

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So, are students aware of them?

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They are getting there.

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I think there's more work to be done.

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Karen Peacock: Yeah,

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Lawrence Foster: But I think that

they are getting aware of it, yes.

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Karen Peacock: Great.

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And what do you see as some of the key

jobs in tourism that we have a labour

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shortage in right now in Northern Ontario?

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Lawrence Foster: You know,

looking at my students, they

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all have multiple job offers.

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Karen Peacock: Really?

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Lawrence Foster: Yes.

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There's not one of my students that

doesn't have two or three potential

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job offers upon graduation or

even for their summer co op, which

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they complete over the summertime.

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You know, with the increase in

need for firefighters in the

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forestry sector, that's a very

lucrative career for our students.

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So they move into that quite often.

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You know, last year they were offered

a $5,000 bonus just for signing up.

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Karen Peacock: Wow.

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Lawrence Foster: That was taxable,

so they didn't see all of it.

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Karen Peacock: Yup, we

all have to pay our taxes.

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Lawrence Foster: In terms of

tourism, there is certainly

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a need for general labour.

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We need people to start learning how to

take over and help manage these operations

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that we have going on in Northern Ontario.

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And it's a hard sell sometimes

with connectivity, with families,

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with people wanting to stay close.

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Our newer students are a bit younger,

you know, with the elimination of

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Grade 13, now we're seeing 17 and

18 year olds going into college.

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Karen Peacock: Right.

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Lawrence Foster: That's a big

step for them and they may not be

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ready to leave home completely.

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So, you know, having that

connectivity is important for them.

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Karen Peacock: Yeah.

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And we'll maybe share with the

audience here too that Lawrence,

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you and your students were actually

a part of our Northern Ontario

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Tourism Summit in 2023 in Sault Ste.

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Marie.

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And I remember you moderated your

students, and, I mean, they did

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a fantastic job answering your

questions and then answering questions

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from the audience that day, too.

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And what I couldn't get over was

at the end, how many operators

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just sort of rushed the stage and

rushed your students, offering jobs,

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essentially, if I remember correctly.

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Lawrence Foster: It was great.

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You know, I had to get them out of

there for another class, and it was

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so awesome to see all of these students

just meeting and interacting with

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the operators, with the owners, and

getting multiple job offers on the spot.

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Karen Peacock: On the spot.

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Lawrence Foster: It

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Karen Peacock: did work

out for many of them.

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They did go and work for those

operators, and it was really nice to see.

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And some of them are returning

this year, and some of them

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are going to try something new.

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Wow, fantastic.

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And you touched a little bit there

on succession planning, right?

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We have a number of operators who are

getting to that point in their life where

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they don't want to be running a lodge,

or whatever their tourism business is.

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And so is there any advice,

I guess, or recommendations

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that you give to your students?

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And I know from an industry standpoint,

we're looking at the situation thinking

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we're going to need people to want to come

in and manage those businesses, but again

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they need to know the business as well.

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So what's your advice or recommendation to

those students and/or even the businesses

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that are potentially coming to you to

look for people that might be interested?

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Lawrence Foster: So this is a

question I get asked quite a bit.

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For the operators, be patient.

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The students, they will need to

learn how the business works.

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They may not end up

working for you in the end.

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may end up working for somebody else,

or taking over another business.

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:

Karen Peacock: Mm Hmm.

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:

Lawrence Foster: But, demographically,

you know, the baby boom is coming to

347

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an end, and that is a lot of money

coming into the next generation.

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They are going to have the money

to not only take part in tourism,

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but perhaps to take over tourism.

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Karen Peacock: Mm hmm.

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Lawrence Foster: And, that's why

I say be patient because it may

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:

take a number of years for them to

get the money together, but it can

353

:

generally come and they will get it.

354

:

Karen Peacock: Okay.

355

:

Lawrence Foster: I'm working with

two of my students right now.

356

:

I own a business that I only

developed because we needed

357

:

the capacity in our city.

358

:

Karen Peacock: Mm.

359

:

Lawrence Foster: My plan is to

hand that business over to those

360

:

students for them to run it.

361

:

So, I've opened up the books, we show

them how it works, how to make bids on

362

:

jobs, and train them on these operations.

363

:

They're building trails, and so it's a

really great way to turn something over

364

:

and see your legacy continue and, do

something awesome for somebody else.

365

:

Karen Peacock: That sounds wonderful.

366

:

And I mean, you can't get better

hands on experience than that.

367

:

Lawrence Foster: Absolutely, yeah,

being able to see the inner workings

368

:

of an operation, you know, right from

the back end of the website to the

369

:

front end of greeting your guests on

the beach or whatever it is, those

370

:

are all really, really key things.

371

:

Karen Peacock: Great.

372

:

Lawrence, if I can ask you, are

most of your students able

373

:

to find living wage jobs?

374

:

Lawrence Foster: And, again,

that is a great question.

375

:

And I guess the other thing

is, do they want them?

376

:

And it depends on the student.

377

:

Karen Peacock: Yes.

378

:

Lawrence Foster: The older students,

they're looking for a living wage job.

379

:

They've had their first career, they're

moving into their second career, they

380

:

understand that tourism is often a

seasonal job, but being able to find a

381

:

double season workaround is important

to them and to be able to afford things.

382

:

And, you know, things are

getting more expensive.

383

:

With some of the younger students,

money is not as important

384

:

as the culture of the job.

385

:

Is it a cool job?

386

:

Do I get to try something really neat?

387

:

Do I get some interesting

responsibilities?

388

:

Interesting experiences as well as the

ability to make a little bit of money?

389

:

So, I don't know if I have

an answer to your question.

390

:

Karen Peacock: I think

your answer is great.

391

:

It just, it depends.

392

:

And it goes back to where we originally

started the conversation of what does

393

:

the student profile look like, right?

394

:

It's where the students

are at in their lifetime.

395

:

And yeah, I think that

that's a great answer.

396

:

So, in terms of job satisfaction and

work life balance, what does that

397

:

look like for a lot of the students?

398

:

Are they looking for that?

399

:

Lawrence Foster: Again, it depends, right?

400

:

Our older students, they're

looking for that work life balance.

401

:

You know, they have a family,

you know, maybe they have pets.

402

:

Karen Peacock: Mm hmm.

403

:

Lawrence Foster: I know

a lot of my students do.

404

:

There are workarounds for that, you

know, having that connectivity, having

405

:

some breaks of time that they can go

out and see their family, having the

406

:

ability to bring their family up to them

or wherever they're working is a key

407

:

thing because, you know, their spouse

may have a full time job and holidays

408

:

and they're willing to travel to where

the student is working and visit.

409

:

So, you know, do you have staff

accommodations that will allow for that?

410

:

Karen Peacock: Right.

411

:

Lawrence Foster: And again, then you have

the younger student that is, you know,

412

:

looking for a really interesting work life

balance, and making new friends and going

413

:

to a new place is what makes them happy.

414

:

So, you know, we've had students

that have worked as ski instructors

415

:

in the winter and then gone on to

manage a marina in the summertime.

416

:

Karen Peacock: Perfect.

417

:

Lawrence Foster: They're traveling

a little bit, but they're young and

418

:

flexible and they're able to do that.

419

:

Karen Peacock: Right.

420

:

Makes complete sense.

421

:

What are the top three things, and

again, this might depend on the student

422

:

you're talking about, but what are the

top three things, do you think, that

423

:

students are seeking in an employer?

424

:

Lawrence Foster: I think that

the three biggest ones are

425

:

money, location, and experience.

426

:

Money is always a draw, whether or not

it's saving a bit of money by having

427

:

accommodations, being able to make tips.

428

:

Karen Peacock: Mm hmm.

429

:

Lawrence Foster: One of the issues

we're having in Ontario as a

430

:

whole is students have to pay for

their accommodations year round.

431

:

Karen Peacock: Right.

432

:

Lawrence Foster: So while they're maybe

coming and working out of their city or

433

:

their town that they live in, they're

still paying rent for those three,

434

:

four months, and that gets expensive.

435

:

So, you can help out a student by

providing some transportation, providing

436

:

a place for them to live, if possible.

437

:

And, you know, tips or other things

that the students can make in terms

438

:

of money, is always appreciated.

439

:

Uh, in terms of location, you know, that

new culture, being immersed into it.

440

:

A new ecosystem that

they're not familiar with.

441

:

You know, we work in the Boreal Forest

here, but maybe they want to try something

442

:

new, and learn and gather new experiences.

443

:

And then obviously a work experience.

444

:

Are they gathering new skills?

445

:

Are they learning some new things?

446

:

Are they going to be able to apply

these in their future career or their

447

:

future business that they may want?

448

:

Karen Peacock: Okay.

449

:

Yeah.

450

:

My next question here.

451

:

So, sometimes we see a bit of a divide

between operators or owners of tourism

452

:

businesses and those in positions to help

support and guide tourism businesses.

453

:

We both work on the industry

side pretty much of things.

454

:

You're in the academics and I work

for Destination Northern Ontario,

455

:

one of our 13 Regional Tourism

Organizations, so I'm not hands on

456

:

front line with a tourism operation.

457

:

In your academic world, you aren't as you

train, but you are with your business.

458

:

Do students have a good awareness

of the different positions within

459

:

tourism in terms of careers?

460

:

Lawrence Foster: So if I'm

understanding your question, like

461

:

we have government agencies, we

have non governmental agencies.

462

:

Karen Peacock: Yes, like non

profits and, et cetera, there to

463

:

support the industry of tourism.

464

:

And then you have the

actual tourism business.

465

:

So, are students, you know, is there an

understanding or an awareness that there

466

:

are both sides of the coin basically

to working within this industry?

467

:

Lawrence Foster: We're trying.

468

:

You know, it's obviously hard to

expose a student to every possibility.

469

:

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

470

:

Lawrence Foster: You know, bringing

in guest speakers, especially from

471

:

NGOs and governmental agencies that

work with tourism operators, owners,

472

:

that's a really important thing because

that's where you get your mentorship.

473

:

That's where you can get some grants,

you can get some money, you can get

474

:

some connections with other operations.

475

:

And I think those

connections are so important.

476

:

You know, when I started working in

tourism 30 years ago, there was a

477

:

lot of competition between operators.

478

:

Karen Peacock: Yes.

479

:

Lawrence Foster: And I think

that is moving away now.

480

:

And the operators are really

seeing how beneficial it is

481

:

to complement one another.

482

:

Did you like this experience?

483

:

Well, go and try this.

484

:

And so, you know, working with the

operators, working with the agencies,

485

:

the government agencies and the NGOs

as well, and the kind of the support

486

:

and the scaffolding that those

agencies can give the operators and

487

:

the students if they're starting out,

I think that's an important aspect.

488

:

What we try to do is we bring in guest

speakers from our city, whether it's

489

:

operators or members of our tourism board.

490

:

A director of tourism comes in and speaks

to my class every year and works closely

491

:

with my students on volunteer projects.

492

:

So that's a really great way to expose

the students to different aspects of what

493

:

is available and what you can work in.

494

:

Karen Peacock: Yeah, it gives

them just that opportunity to view

495

:

through a different lens, right?

496

:

What should business owners and managers

be aware of when wanting to or trying

497

:

to recruit and retain students as staff?

498

:

Lawrence Foster: So recruitment

is a really tough thing.

499

:

As a Northern Ontario College, we

have trouble recruiting students

500

:

because we're not close to home.

501

:

So, from my experience, one of the best

things that we have done is set up a

502

:

mentorship program where my students

answer questions to prospective students.

503

:

Karen Peacock: Oh, interesting.

504

:

Lawrence Foster: So, I see that working in

tourism where an owner, an operator could

505

:

have an employee or a former employee

speak on their behalf and be able to

506

:

say, This is what it's like to work here.

507

:

These are the tough points.

508

:

These are the good points.

509

:

Here's all the benefits.

510

:

The people you're going to work

with are amazing, you know, and

511

:

they can really sell it that way.

512

:

Karen Peacock: Mm hmm.

513

:

Lawrence Foster: The

owner-operator sometimes they

514

:

don't have the time to do that.

515

:

They work hard and they also don't

understand what their employees

516

:

are going through, sometimes.

517

:

Because there is a disconnect, right?

518

:

The employee is not going to tell

the employer everything that's going

519

:

on, all the little secrets and tips

and tricks and what the benefits are.

520

:

Those are kind of things that people hold

inside sometimes and it's really great to

521

:

get that peer to peer mentorship going.

522

:

Karen Peacock: Yeah,

what a fantastic idea.

523

:

In my mind, I'm jumping ahead to,

you know, we have a Fast Track to

524

:

Success program for our businesses,

our tourism businesses, and it's a one

525

:

on one personalized coaching program.

526

:

I'm thinking that is a great idea for

me to give our training specialists

527

:

to give the business owners as a tip

to offer in terms of recruitment.

528

:

I love that idea.

529

:

I love that idea.

530

:

It's great.

531

:

Recruitment and, really,

retention as well,

532

:

So, there is an ongoing need for

consistent and skilled staff among

533

:

tourism experience providers.

534

:

How do they go about

finding that skilled staff?

535

:

Or can they?

536

:

Lawrence Foster: There

is definitely a need.

537

:

You know, when you're looking at my

students getting multiple job before

538

:

they're even done school, the workforce

sector in Canada, especially in tourism,

539

:

there is a need, there is a gap there.

540

:

I think there are a couple

of key things we can do.

541

:

We can look at focusing on cultural

differences, and looking at, you

542

:

know, maybe pivoting the business

to, you know, we have a large

543

:

Indian culture here in Sault Ste.

544

:

Marie, and so we're seeing

lots of things popping up.

545

:

I'm getting lots of students from

India come in, taking the program.

546

:

Many of them are staying,

and they're doing programming

547

:

specifically for their culture.

548

:

Karen Peacock: Hmm.

549

:

Lawrence Foster: So, looking at,

well, can you find a niche market?

550

:

Can you find a student that

will help in a particular way?

551

:

They may not have the best English

skills, but maybe they're going to

552

:

bring in a new clientele for you.

553

:

Karen Peacock: Right.

554

:

Lawrence Foster: So, that's one

way that we can certainly look at.

555

:

I think the other thing that we could

do is look at how can we be a little

556

:

bit more flexible for our staff.

557

:

Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

558

:

Lawrence Foster: You know,

is it possible that they can

559

:

be flexible with their hours?

560

:

Not always, but, you know, maybe they can

get some time off, or work towards that

561

:

time off, so that they can then reconnect

with their family, with their friends.

562

:

You know, having that satellite

connectivity with being able to Skype

563

:

or phone your friends and your family.

564

:

Having the ability to let

your staff connect with others

565

:

is going to be important.

566

:

Karen Peacock: Okay, great.

567

:

I'm assuming this, but through

your program, customer service

568

:

must be a big part of that.

569

:

You know, customer service is a huge

part of our jobs in tourism, right?

570

:

So, is that a big part of the program

at Sault College, or is that sort of

571

:

expected to be learned on site as a

new staff person within a business?

572

:

Lawrence Foster: I think

it's a bit of both.

573

:

You know, when we talk about education, we

say there's hard skills and soft skills.

574

:

You can teach the hard skills,

students can learn those,

575

:

those are muscle memory things.

576

:

The soft skills, you know, your

demeanor, your politeness, your

577

:

ability to talk and communicate,

578

:

Karen Peacock: Mm hmm.

579

:

Lawrence Foster: Those are a

little bit more difficult to teach.

580

:

Now we do work on that quite a bit

because our students are expected

581

:

to lead our first year classes.

582

:

Karen Peacock: Okay.

583

:

Lawrence Foster: And so they have to

prepare meals, they have to prepare

584

:

safety plans, communications, emails,

updates, and then they have to deliver a

585

:

full program to our first year students.

586

:

Now, with those first year students,

we might have faculty, staff

587

:

coming out and joining us for

these adventures that we go on.

588

:

We have a group called the

Emerging Leaders of America.

589

:

And they're coming from South and North

America and coming to Sault College

590

:

and we give them a taste of Canada.

591

:

So, our students are expected to be full

professional, communicate slow enough that

592

:

somebody that speaks English as a second

language is able to understand them.

593

:

Karen Peacock: Mm hmm.

594

:

Lawrence Foster: And, my favorite

part is I challenge my students,

595

:

you know, especially the younger

ones every year when they come into

596

:

my class, some of them may swear.

597

:

And I always say, Okay guys, you know, you

cannot swear in a professional workplace.

598

:

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

599

:

Lawrence Foster: How are you

going to take care of this?

600

:

So this year, our students came up

with every time somebody swears,

601

:

they have to do ten push ups.

602

:

Karen Peacock: Nice.

603

:

Lawrence Foster: They've had to

do these push ups in the canoe as

604

:

we're paddling, which really hones

their skill as well, which is great.

605

:

Karen Peacock: Oh, no kidding.

606

:

And, what's the frequency of

people having to do push ups?

607

:

Lawrence Foster: It has

certainly died down.

608

:

There's always one or two students

that it's embedded in the way

609

:

they grew up and the way they

interact and the way they talk.

610

:

But I see the other students

catching them, calling them

611

:

out and keeping them on track.

612

:

So the frequency, some days

we're down to one or two that

613

:

get caught, which is great.

614

:

Karen Peacock: Yeah, so

it's really diminishing it.

615

:

Lawrence Foster: It's

really diminishing it.

616

:

Karen Peacock: That's great.

617

:

Lawrence Foster: Yeah.

618

:

And even just the awareness piece, it's

not about embarrassing the student,

619

:

it's about Yeah, being aware of what

we're saying and what we're doing.

620

:

Karen Peacock: Yeah, wonderful.

621

:

Um, do you think post secondary

education, in it are we teaching

622

:

students what they need to learn, or do

we need to be providing some additional

623

:

resources or opportunities outside of

post secondary for them in terms of

624

:

tourism to allow them to get to that

job that they're wanting to seek?

625

:

Lawrence Foster: That's a tough question.

626

:

There's always, always,

always room for improvement.

627

:

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

628

:

Lawrence Foster: I don't think I would

be a very good instructor if I said I'm

629

:

teaching everything, they know it all.

630

:

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

631

:

Lawrence Foster: I always reflect

on the end of my class, on the

632

:

end of my semester, on the end

of my year, what are we missing?

633

:

What's the key piece?

634

:

And talking to people like

you, Karen, I get great ideas.

635

:

Talking to operators, they tell me what

is lacking with the students coming in.

636

:

Karen Peacock: Hmm.

637

:

Lawrence Foster: So there's

always going to be a need.

638

:

You know, we do our best to fill this

need through volunteer opportunities.

639

:

Because for me, you know, I

volunteered in several different

640

:

capacities within my community.

641

:

Sault Ste.

642

:

Marie is so small that when you

volunteer in one spot, it's going

643

:

to have carry over into your career.

644

:

People are going to remember you.

645

:

That experience that you're going

to bring in is going to be positive,

646

:

and you're going to learn a lot

through that volunteer experience.

647

:

And, you know, working in Northern

Ontario, especially in these small

648

:

towns, those opportunities are right

there in front of you, and you just

649

:

have to take a couple of steps.

650

:

And, you know, we've seen our students

get certifications that would cost

651

:

thousands of dollars by volunteering.

652

:

And it's led to jobs, it's led to

travel, you know, they're teaching no

653

:

limits adaptive skiing in New Zealand.

654

:

Karen Peacock: Wow.

655

:

Lawrence Foster: How

656

:

Karen Peacock: cool

657

:

Lawrence Foster: is that?

658

:

Karen Peacock: So cool.

659

:

Lawrence Foster: You know, and that's just

a volunteer experience that we made them

660

:

aware of, and they pursued it and they

chased it down, and now they're living it.

661

:

Karen Peacock: And they had the

courage to take that step too.

662

:

Yeah, wonderful.

663

:

What a great story.

664

:

Then I'm sure you could tell us

many more stories of where some of

665

:

your students have ended up that we

would be equally enthralled with.

666

:

Lawrence Foster: Absolutely.

667

:

Karen Peacock: We're coming to the end of

our time, Lawrence, and I just can't thank

668

:

you enough for sharing this time with me.

669

:

I want to ask you, any final thoughts?

670

:

Anything that you would like

to share with all of us that I

671

:

haven't asked you a question about?

672

:

Lawrence Foster: You know, if I could

just say, I've worked with literally

673

:

hundreds of tourism operators, from

small outfits on little lakes in

674

:

Northern Ontario to First Nations

outfits in Northern British Columbia.

675

:

And it amazes me the amount of work

they put into it, and it's their passion.

676

:

And, you know, when you talk to them,

they are busy people, but they're always

677

:

willing to take the time out and give

you some advice, give you a helping

678

:

hand, and making that connection.

679

:

So I encourage them to keep doing

that because it has really impacted

680

:

my life in such a positive way from

working with all of those people.

681

:

So, I just want to say thank you if

any of them are listening because

682

:

they've certainly given me great

opportunities in my lifetime.

683

:

Karen Peacock: Wonderful.

684

:

Well, honestly, Lawrence, thank

you so much for all your generous

685

:

time and insight into this.

686

:

karen-peacock_1_05-08-2025_113126:

New episodes of Let's Talk Northern

687

:

Ontario Tourism are coming soon.

688

:

Follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to

be notified as soon as they're released.

689

:

Karen Peacock: Let's Talk Northern

Ontario Tourism is an initiative of

690

:

Tourism Excellence North and recorded

on the traditional territories of

691

:

the Anishinaabek and the Mushkegowuk.

692

:

It is produced by Storied Places

Media with support from Erica Richard,

693

:

Naza Obasi, and Gillian McCullough.

694

:

I'm Karen Peacock.

695

:

Thanks for listening.

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