In the premiere episode of Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism, host Karen Peacock sits down with Destination Northern Ontario (DNO)’s Executive Director, David MacLachlan, for a wide-ranging chat about the history of DNO and Tourism Excellence North (TEN), how DNO supports Northern Ontario’s tourism sector, and the future of the sector as the region recovers from COVID and navigates the current U.S. trade war. They also discuss workforce development, programs to help businesses grow (including an upcoming Best Practices Mission to Collingwood), and what it’ll take to get Northern Ontario tourism to the next level.

• 00:50 About Tourism Excellence North and Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism
• 02:48 David's Background in Tourism
• 04:25 The Origins and Role of Destination Northern Ontario
• 10:31 The Origins and Role of Tourism Excellence North
• 16:19 Economic Impact of Tourism in Northern Ontario
• 18:12 Impacts and Opportunities From COVID and the U.S. Trade War
• 23:49 Opportunities in Francophone and Indigenous Tourism
• 26:45 How to Get Involved and Grow Your Business
• 28:52 Upcoming Best Practices Mission to Collingwood
• 32:58 Workforce Development and Succession Planning
• 36:37 Future of Northern Ontario Tourism
• 38:28 Importance of Partnerships and Collaboration
• 41:14 Closing Thoughts and Memorable Experiences
• 44:26 Next Episode Preview

Join Us on the Best Practices Mission to Collingwood

• Best Practices Mission webpage - tourismexcellencenorth.ca/best-practices-mission-building-quality-destination-strategic-renovations-enhance-your

About the Podcast

Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is a podcast for tourism operators and industry stakeholders featuring experts who understand what it means to run a tourism business or organization here in Northern Ontario. Through casual conversations, you’ll learn about cutting edge topics like AI marketing, Cruise Ship Tourism, and trends that are shaking up the industry. Plus, you can tune in  while driving or doing chores.

For even more  insights that’ll help you grow your business, organization, or community, connect with Tourism Excellence North, which is part of Destination Northern Ontario:

• Website - tourismexcellencenorth.ca
• Facebook - facebook.com/DestinationNorthernOntario
• Instagram - instagram.com/destinationnorthernontario
• LinkedIn - linkedin.com/company/destinationnorthernontario

If you like podcasts, DNO has another one called Destination: Northern Ontario. Season 1 is for people thinking about buying a tourism business, and Season 2 has helpful advice for new tourism operators. 

 Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is an initiative of Tourism Excellence North and is recorded on the traditional territories of the Anishinaabek and the Mushkegowuk. It is hosted by Karen Peacock and produced by Storied Places Media with support from Erica Richard, Naza Obasi, and Gillian McCullough.

I find from my travels that there's very few

2

destinations that actually form an

emotional bond with the visitor.

3

Northern Ontario is one of those places.

4

Karen Peacock: Welcome to the premiere

of Let's Talk Northern Ontario

5

Tourism, a brand new podcast from

Tourism Excellence North that features

6

casual conversations with experts

who actually understand what it means

7

to run a tourism business or tourism

organization here at Northern Ontario.

8

I'm Karen Peacock, your podcast

host and Senior Coordinator, Workforce

9

Development and Industry Training for

Destination Northern Ontario and Tourism

10

Excellence North, affectionately

known as DNO and TEN respectively.

11

TEN is all about helping operators

and industry stakeholders like you

12

learn the skills you need to grow

your business, your community, and

13

tourism across Northern Ontario.

14

We offer lots of training options,

including online courses, videos,

15

group learning, and personalized

coaching, but we understand that it

16

can be hard to find time for education.

17

That's why we developed this podcast.

18

It's a way for you to listen and learn

while driving, doing maintenance around

19

your property or even snow shoveling.

20

You can download these episodes to

your cell phone using a platform

21

like Spotify or Apple Podcasts

and listen anywhere, anytime.

22

Over the next 10 episodes, we'll

cover a lot of ground, from business

23

basics to AI, cruise tourism to bike

tourism, and cutting edge insights

24

into where our industry is heading.

25

Follow us now on Spotify or Apple Podcasts

to make sure you don't miss an episode.

26

Without further ado, let's

get into this first episode.

27

I had a wide ranging chat with DNO's

Executive Director David McLaughlin

28

about the past, present, and future

of tourism in Northern Ontario.

29

It's a rare opportunity to hear from

someone with both a bird's eye view of

30

the sector and a down in the trenches

understanding of the tourism business.

31

It's a great conversation.

32

I hope you enjoy.

33

Welcome, David.

34

And I'm so glad to have you

in the TEN studio with us.

35

And this is the first time

we've done a podcast in studio.

36

So welcome.

37

David MacLachlan: Well, thanks for

the invitation to be here today.

38

Karen Peacock: Oh, my pleasure.

39

David MacLachlan: I feel like

I'm on a radio talk show.

40

Karen Peacock: I feel like that too,

and we've got microphones between

41

us, and we've both got headphones on.

42

So, you know, to the audience this

is not a typical way in which

43

David and I have a meeting and look

across each other at the table.

44

It's just a pleasure to have you here.

45

And I'm looking forward

to our conversation.

46

Can you just share with us what

your background and experience

47

is in the tourism industry and

with Destination Northern Ontario?

48

David MacLachlan: Sure, I, I

grew up in the tourism industry,

49

uh, from, being a, a young kid.

50

Every year we went to what was my

grandfather's lodge and then my

51

parents ended up buying a fishing

lodge and that's when we found out

52

it wasn't all fun and games anymore

and started to, uh, actually work.

53

It's been the only sector

that I've worked in.

54

And then coming into, um, Destination

Northern Ontario at the time, really

55

had participated through one of the,

uh, the regional DMOs and, um, you

56

know, worked my way through the Northern

Committee for Destination Ontario

57

and, um, actually, uh, I was co chair

of the transition group to put our

58

regional tourism organization together.

59

Our initial chair stepped away for a while

and then I was conscripted back by some

60

board members for six months to a year.

61

And I think we're about to

start year thirteen in July.

62

So it's been a great run.

63

Karen Peacock: That's incredible.

64

And, and Regional Tourism Organization

affectionately known as RTO 13,

65

and Destination Northern Ontario,

affectionately known as DNO for all

66

those acronym lovers out there, right?

67

David MacLachlan: Yes, 100%.

68

It would not be tourism without acronyms.

69

We speak our own language.

70

Karen Peacock: Oh my goodness, do we ever.

71

All right.

72

So most of this conversation

today is really about Destination

73

Northern Ontario and the tourism

industry and how we're doing.

74

Can you catch us up on the history of

Destination Northern Ontario and really

75

in particular maybe since our COVID years?

76

David MacLachlan: Yeah, so the

organization was created, you know,

77

essentially by the Ministry of Tourism,

Culture, and Gaming, many years ago

78

now with the, uh, general idea to

manage and grow tourism receipts.

79

So, I think of us as a

tourism development agency.

80

And of course, you know, we have our

mandated pillars and really we're

81

here to support the industry, so

operators, tourism organizations, in

82

terms of that direction and growth.

83

And, looking at it from, uh, a variety

of aspects, you know, our products and

84

experiences to attracting investment

through workforce development and, of

85

course, training for the sector and then

getting on to the marketing of all that

86

we have here to offer here in the North.

87

Karen Peacock: Great.

88

And, and I know it's been a lot of work

building, uh, this organization and

89

really working within those pillars.

90

You just mentioned those pillars, but

can you maybe take us through what,

91

what each one of those might mean?

92

David MacLachlan: Yeah, and it definitely

was a lot of work, and it still is a

93

lot of work, and, um, you know, in the

early days, one of the challenges around

94

Northern Ontario was that we still had

our six tourism regions from the first

95

time the province created tourism regions

96

Karen Peacock: Wow.

97

David MacLachlan: Back in 1973.

98

So we had six regions, looking at the

province creating, theoretically, two or

99

three new regions in Northern Ontario, and

that's when the sector came together, and,

100

and at the time, we used the bus analogy,

trying to get everybody onto the bus.

101

And, and I remember, uh, somebody

with one of the organizations saying,

102

I'd love to get on your bus, but,

well, we have a lot of baggage.

103

And, uh, do you have room for our baggage?

104

But I think we've done well.

105

Uh, we've had to get everybody

into the right seats.

106

Everybody wanted to sit in the driver's

seat, but, uh, we've done that.

107

And again, looking at those pillars.

108

So, you know, what are those products

and experiences that are going to resonate

109

with consumers, and making sure that we're

ready with those products and experiences

110

and that they meet consumer expectations,

so quality and visitor appeal,

111

very, uh, important aspects of that.

112

Investment attraction, in some

ways, we play more of a supportive

113

role than an active role.

114

We play an active role in terms of

engaging the economic development

115

community, and, ensuring that

tourism remains on the radar.

116

And when communities are, uh, doing

their community development plans, etc.

117

But also supporting, you know,

letters of support in terms of funding

118

applications, supporting the sector,

uh, again with specific programming

119

that gives them the tools that

they need to run their businesses.

120

And then, you know, like you're

the expert on, on workforce

121

development and industry training.

122

So, um, I think in the early

years, we concentrated more

123

on the industry training.

124

And more lately, we've taken an

active role in workforce development.

125

It's, um, making sure that we have an

adequate workforce here with the proper

126

skills and training to service the sector.

127

And then, you know, through the

training programs, which touch on all

128

the pillars, that our operators and

those who support the tourism sector

129

have the training that they need so

that we can be the best of the best

130

in the world when it comes to tourism.

131

And then lastly, the marketing

is, is really telling

132

everybody what we have here.

133

Over the years, we've done a really

good job, I would say, in terms of, you

134

know, what we call the avid experiences.

135

So these are our signature northern

experiences, like angling and hunting,

136

and snowmobiling, and paddling,

and everything in the outdoors.

137

And, you know, now we have an

opportunity in terms of maybe a more

138

general leisure consumer, which we

found during the pandemic that we

139

did resonate with those consumers.

140

And I think that's the biggest challenge

ahead of us right now is, uh, being

141

able to reach those consumers and

being able to offe the products and

142

services that they're looking for.

143

Karen Peacock: So, just in terms of those

products that they're looking for, can

144

you dive into that a little bit more?

145

What is the research saying, and

what is the trend showing in terms

146

of what today's consumer is looking

for, especially since COVID?

147

David MacLachlan: Well, I think

we're still waiting for some

148

of that research to get done.

149

So, you know, some of this maybe

comes from the gut in terms of our

150

experience with the industry and

what we know and what we've seen.

151

So certainly during the pandemic,

uh, Northern Ontario led the entire

152

country in terms of occupancy.

153

Um, doesn't mean at times that it

was great, but you know, 35 percent

154

was better than 6% that they were

experiencing in some of the larger cities.

155

And as people got out moving around,

we actually had, uh, municipalities and

156

destinations that were in the 90s and

close to 100 percent during the pandemic.

157

We reached, uh, and had a whole different

crowd coming to Northern Ontario.

158

And, you know, I think we've done

a reasonable job at keeping them.

159

And, um, and I think what we're

going to find through the research,

160

and I think from what we can see

elsewhere is, you know, what makes

161

other destinations successful?

162

So, yes, we do really well with

the "avids," you know, we're the

163

number one destination for angling.

164

But, uh, we know we can do better

in terms of, um, I keep calling it

165

a general leisure consumer, but it's

somebody who is coming, you know, maybe

166

not specifically for a fishing trip.

167

They might fish while they're here

for two or three hours, but they are

168

really coming to experience everything

that we have here in Northern Ontario.

169

And maybe not so much anchored at

one destination, but moving around.

170

We can see that from other destinations

like Newfoundland and Labrador, or

171

even some of the island destinations.

172

We have great beaches here, in the North.

173

So, you know, certainly we

can capitalize on our assets.

174

Karen Peacock: Definitely.

175

Okay, great.

176

You did bring up workforce

development and industry training.

177

So, let me go back to that.

178

You saw the need for Tourism

179

Can you tell us a little bit about what

drove you to, um, develop that program

180

and really what was the industry need

that you were responding to at that time?

181

David MacLachlan: Yeah, it's,

uh, kind of a cool story.

182

So, we've all seen the, uh, the television

commercials and the magazine ads from,

183

uh, Newfoundland and Labrador, and I

was sitting across the aisle from Jane

184

Carhey who, you know, at the time worked

at FedNor and, uh, back in those days

185

we, we had something called the, uh,

OTMPC Partnership that included Northern

186

Development, so they had been doing a lot

of work in terms of the first Northern

187

Ontario website and the first Northern

Ontario Tourism Marketing Strategy.

188

And she was showing me, she had the

workbook out, she was showing me all the

189

great things they were doing on the

East Coast, and we were talking about

190

Northern Ontario, and I just remember

her saying, "Okay, well, let's do it."

191

I think we were coming back from

like a very early meeting around

192

the organization, around the RTO.

193

Um, so this might have

194

Karen Peacock: Wow.

195

David MacLachlan: And we said, okay,

well, well, let's do it, will they share?

196

That was a big part of it.

197

And so, you know, that's where the initial

idea came from and then, we went from

198

there in terms of an assessment and would

this work in Northern Ontario, to actually

199

developing the pilot program, and that's

when, uh, you came on board to, uh, help

200

us implement that and, uh, certainly the

program has grown in leaps and bounds.

201

So, again, it's, it's the hard work that

went into all those experiences, um, that

202

the East Coast was selling and moving that

here to Northern Ontario and making it fit

203

our Northern Ontario tourism landscape.

204

Karen Peacock: Right.

205

And the needs or gaps that you

saw at that time, too, right?

206

David MacLachlan: Oh,

100 percent the gaps.

207

I mean, we always have our gems

here in the North, but, uh, we

208

know that we have work to do.

209

And, certainly, you know, the program

really dealt with the visitor appeal

210

aspect and, you know, raising the

product quality, raising that visitor

211

appeal, being able to increase visitation

and yields and, and get people coming

212

back was the main part of the program.

213

And I think, you know, the people

who have gone through it have

214

found it, uh, extremely beneficial.

215

And I think where we're at with the

Fast Track program and the personalized

216

coaching and the mentorship,

is proving really beneficial.

217

We're not able to reach everyone, but

everyone's not trying to reach us either.

218

Karen Peacock: True.

219

David MacLachlan: So, for those

people, we're able to affect

220

positive change and we can see that.

221

Karen Peacock: Can you tell me, and I

mean, these are words I say and, and

222

I know we say them in industry, but

we talk about the "visitor appeal."

223

We talk about the standard of which our

customers want to experience their visit.

224

Break that down.

225

What does that mean?

226

What is today's customer expectation,

or what is the standard of

227

which they're looking for today?

228

David MacLachlan: Yeah, well, I think

people are more discriminating today,

229

and are, you know, maybe looking

for us to deliver a little bit more

230

in terms of amenities and quality.

231

I mean, certainly people have a

lot of discretionary power where

232

they spend their vacation dollar.

233

I remember, this is going back about

20 years ago at the lodge and taking

234

a phone call and talking to a group,

and they were, um, they were looking

235

to come fishing and they, you know,

everybody's looking for the best price

236

and so we were talking about that

and I asked, well, what did the other

237

operators tell you and he said, oh,

no, we're not talking to anybody else.

238

We're only talking to you, right?

239

We're either coming fishing in Northern

Ontario or we're going to Las Vegas.

240

Karen Peacock: Karen Wow.

241

David MacLachlan: So, you know, it

just goes to show you, technically,

242

you know, we're competing with Las

Vegas, we're competing with those

243

Caribbean cruises, and so that's the

quality level that we need to be at.

244

And what we've done in our business,

I know the business my grandfather

245

had versus my dad versus where we're

at now, is not the same and people's

246

expectations have changed over the

years and I think the people who have

247

kept abreast of those changes and are

offering a product that, you know, yes

248

it's a Northern Ontario product, but

it can compete with the golf resorts in

249

Myrtle Beach or elsewhere in the world.

250

That they're able to extend their customer

base so they're not only able to attract

251

that typical all male buddy vacation.

252

But, you know, men come and then they

see, well, I can bring my wives here,

253

I can bring my family here, and, you

know, for us, it's really extended the

254

season where we open the door in the

spring and typically, if you went back

255

in time, fishing lodges were busy early

in the spring and then maybe not so

256

busy during the summer months or fall,

whereas now, we open the doors and we

257

just run right through the whole year.

258

And I think for people to have an

understanding of that, that people

259

are looking for a little better.

260

They're looking for a branded experience.

261

It doesn't mean that you have to be

branded, but it means that you have to

262

have your brand and know what your brand

is and stand behind it so that everything

263

that you're offering is top quality.

264

Karen Peacock: Does everybody

need to be a five star?

265

David MacLachlan: No, not at all.

266

You just need to be the best at

being you and where, where you're at.

267

So certainly, if you're operating

at a three star level, it just might

268

mean that the types of amenities or

services, but you need to be the best.

269

Karen Peacock: At that three star.

270

David MacLachlan: Yes.

271

Karen Peacock: Absolutely.

272

Okay, great.

273

And, you know, you're, you're making

comparisons to Las Vegas and Myrtle Beach

274

and I want to ask you what the economic

impact is of tourism in, in the north,

275

and the follow up question to that was,

you know, how do we match up to Southern

276

Ontario but you're comparing us to a

far greater field than that but can

277

we start with you know what what is the

economic impact of tourism on the north?

278

David MacLachlan: Well, we were

just talking about that this morning

279

and trying to get a handle on that.

280

Um, so we're thinking in 2024,

um, we're probably going to

281

land somewhere around $2.4

282

billion.

283

I'm going to stick my neck out

and say that's where we're at.

284

Karen Peacock: That's where we're at.

285

Okay.

286

David MacLachlan: We were $1.7

287

billion coming into, uh, into September.

288

So, I will say we'll be

somewhere around there.

289

Around $2.2

290

to $2.4

291

billion dollars, which is a lot of money.

292

So where does that put Northern Ontario?

293

Certainly, it puts us on a provincial

level, um, with some of the Atlantic

294

provinces, you know, Saskatchewan,

and, uh, you know, basically tied

295

with the province of Manitoba.

296

We do get lost because Ontario is a

powerhouse when it comes to tourism.

297

Ontario is roughly about 45

percent of Canada's tourism sector.

298

We would like to get to

be about 10 percent of the

299

provincial tourism receipts.

300

I think right now we're

probably about 7 percent.

301

So we definitely have some room to grow.

302

But that kind of puts it into perspective.

303

But from a northern perspective and

looking at the importance of tourism

304

to the northern economy, tourism plays

a greater role In terms of the economy

305

here in, in the north than in the south.

306

You know, the pre pandemic numbers that we

had, you're well versed in these, um, what

307

is it, 40 percent of the workforce, one

in four businesses related to tourism,

308

so it plays a huge part in terms of, uh,

the Northern Ontario economic landscape.

309

Karen Peacock: Great.

310

Are we, are we rebounding

from COVID or since COVID?

311

David MacLachlan: Some people might argue

that rebound's not the right word, but I'm

312

going to say we, we probably did rebound.

313

We were growing better than the

provincial average in terms of

314

tourism growth, um, since 2019.

315

Obviously there was challenges within our

sector, depending what kind of business

316

you had, where you were located, and

where your consumer base came from.

317

And, to that end, visits from the U.

318

S.

319

had not fully recovered

320

The eastern border crossings at the

Sioux and Pigeon River, we're doing

321

better than the provincial average,

I think we were down between five

322

and seven percent at those borders,

you know, over pre pandemic numbers.

323

But in the far northwest, so, you

know, when we're talking at the Fort

324

Francis or Rainey River, they were

still down about one in five U.S.

325

visitors, um, so we

hadn't recovered that way.

326

But, our hotel sector, our cottage

rentals, short term rentals, certainly

327

more than recovered from 2019.

328

In the branded hotels, both

occupancy and, uh, rates per room,

329

up about 36 percent over 2019.

330

So even if you take inflation

in, we're doing better than

331

we were before the pandemic.

332

Karen Peacock: Just fantastic news.

333

What are, um, what can you tell

us about the current tourism

334

landscape in Northern Ontario?

335

And I, and I know you touched a

little bit about that, about the

336

new consumer that we saw coming

to Northern Ontario during COVID.

337

What do you see as the current tourism

landscape for us in Northern Ontario?

338

David MacLachlan: Well I think we

kind of look at it from two streams.

339

So, you know, and this lines up

with the province, or "defend and

340

maintain," so those are the products

and experiences where we have

341

historically have done very well.

342

And we want to ensure

that it stays that way.

343

And then looking at the

"inspire and grow" segment.

344

So it could be a product that we've

done well in the past, but it could be

345

looking at it, um, from a new angle.

346

So say from angling, so how do we

get, you know, new Canadians, new

347

Americans, you know, more youth

and women involved in angling.

348

Or it could be something entirely

new in terms of touring and, and

349

that general leisure consumer.

350

So I think we're really focused

on the growth, at this point.

351

And I think our aspirational goal is to

grow tourism, you know, to 10 percent of

352

provincial tourism receipts, which would

mean about an, a billion dollars extra in

353

tourism revenues, and that would create

14,000 new full time jobs in the North,

354

and generate over $300 million in tax

revenues for three levels of government.

355

So, uh, certainly, you know,

comes with some big benefits.

356

Karen Peacock: Yeah, some

impressive potential.

357

David MacLachlan: That's for sure.

358

And of course, we're looking at that,

but then, we were just on the tails

359

of the pandemic, and I think we

were, all knew that there would be

360

something else come along at some point.

361

I don't think we quite figured it

would be now, but with the looming

362

trade war and in that situation, not

only between Canada and the U.S.,

363

but across the world.

364

Um, we're looking at how that might impact

our strategies from a couple of fronts.

365

So, on the negative side, you know,

we want to really make sure that we

366

continue to be a welcoming destination.

367

And we did through the pandemic,

we were overwhelmingly a welcoming

368

destination, and we want to track

that visitor sentiment back where the

369

visitors come from to make sure that

they still think favorably of Northern

370

Ontario as a vacation destination.

371

Karen Peacock: Definitely.

372

What's the opportunity as part of this?

373

David MacLachlan: Yeah, so the huge

opportunity, I think, for us right now

374

is, similar to during the pandemic, is we

have a bit of a built in, you know, home

375

based crowd with a lot of Canadians, and

specifically here in Ontario, uh, choosing

376

where to, uh, spend their vacation dollar.

377

So, I think with the exchange rate

the way it is, that we will see

378

more people staying at home this

year, uh, which is a good thing.

379

And then, with the way the dollar is

and favorable exchange rates, it's a

380

huge opportunity in terms of people

coming to, to us from the U.S.

381

or, or even further overseas.

382

Karen Peacock: Mm hmm.

383

Yep.

384

How do you think we should

be receiving our U.S.

385

guests?

386

What's the opportunity there?

387

David MacLachlan: Well, I think, you know,

in a one on one situation, it's very

388

easy to continue to welcome our, our U.S.

389

friends, uh, here in, in Northern Ontario.

390

We just want to make sure that

they know that they are welcome

391

and appreciated, and that they're

able to have a great holiday here.

392

And I think, you know, again, one of

the things that we're looking at right

393

now is, is around some tourism awareness

communications, just to let everyone

394

know how important these visitors

are to us and our local economies.

395

That without these visitors, we

wouldn't have the restaurants that we

396

have, we wouldn't have, you know, the

experiences that we all benefit from.

397

That tourism, it adds

texture to our communities.

398

Karen Peacock: Definitely, definitely.

399

I know we were just touching on some

trends, right, in Northern Ontario.

400

What is the opportunity for, let's

say, nature and wildlife experiences

401

and learning for tourism operators?

402

David MacLachlan: Well, I think the

real opportunity is post pandemic, and

403

Destination Canada, who's done a lot of

research, one of the trends that they've

404

noticed is "wild for wilderness."

405

People are looking for that real,

authentic, you know, Canadian, Northern

406

Ontario, uh, holiday, maybe more so

than the urban holiday, uh, in the past.

407

So that's a real opportunity

because we've got nothing but wide

408

open spaces and an abundance of

nature for people to experience.

409

Karen Peacock: We sure do.

410

Can you share with us what the

importance is, or maybe what

411

the priority is, with respect to

products and experiences focused on

412

Francophone and Indigenous tourism?

413

David MacLachlan: Yeah, 100 percent uh,

certainly when it comes to the Francophone

414

tourism landscape in the Francophone

markets, I think it's still somewhat

415

of a hidden gem for us in terms of what

we have here in Northern Ontario and I

416

think very much, um, marketable both in

Quebec as well as in France and certainly

417

with the return of the Northlander,

um, you know, in the conversations

418

that we've been having with European

tour operators, and specifically those

419

from France, are very excited about the

opportunity to get people into Toronto.

420

You know, Toronto is Canada's biggest

gateway for international flights.

421

Roughly, I think it's like 74

percent of all international

422

arrivals come through Toronto.

423

And being able to get them on the

train , basically we can get them

424

right up to James Bay and, uh,

the coast with Ontario Northland.

425

Karen Peacock: It's pretty incredible.

426

David MacLachlan: Yeah, so being able

to put together some pretty incredible

427

packages, uh, for those markets.

428

And then, you know, obviously

an Indigenous, um, is

429

important on two fronts.

430

Um, so one is the authentic

Indigenous experience being very

431

important, but also Indigenous owned

tourism experiences that maybe can

432

incorporate some of the Indigenous,

uh, teachings into that experience.

433

And I'm thinking like, uh, wouldn't it

be great to go to, you know, a fly-in

434

lodge that was owned and operated by

Indigenous peoples and being able to

435

experience that through their lens.

436

Karen Peacock: Yes, absolutely.

437

Um, Paul Pepe, he was talking about

the cruise ships coming in and docking

438

at Thunder Bay, and just having some

small Indigenous participation there

439

at the dock, whether it be drumming or

something thereof that the guests are

440

just really, really really wanting that

experience, that authentic experience.

441

David MacLachlan: Yeah, 100%.

442

I think we have 10 ships on the Great

Lakes this summer, which is great

443

and that will, uh, continue to grow.

444

You know, the difference between

Great Lakes cruising and maybe the

445

Caribbean cruising is the fact that

the ships in the Great Lakes sell from

446

the top down, so the, the largest,

most expensive cabins sell out first.

447

And people are really coming onto

these ships and wanting to learn and

448

experience, so we're not having the $1.99

449

cruise where the cruise line's

making it up on the liquor sales.

450

People are coming to see and

experience and learn what we have here.

451

Karen Peacock: And I think it's just

an incredible opportunity for Northern

452

Ontario to showcase what we have, right?

453

Um, how can, uh, operators or

business owners get involved?

454

So if, if someone wants to see their

business grow and doesn't maybe, you

455

know, know where to go, how can they get

involved in helping themselves grow their

456

business and helping to grow tourism as

part of the economy in Northern Ontario?

457

David MacLachlan: Well, I'll just

say that there's a tremendous

458

opportunity in terms of tourism.

459

It's a, it's a great business to

be in and when you get it right, it

460

can provide a very good lifestyle.

461

It's a type of business where you're

talking to people when they're on holiday,

462

so everybody is, basically at their best.

463

I would say for people, it's,

it's really important to have kind

464

of that yen for learning, right?

465

So, you know, when you're out

going to a sports show or you are

466

maybe just traveling to take note

of what you're seeing in other

467

destinations and maybe being able

to bring those best practices back.

468

But in terms of Northern Ontario, I

think, you know, reaching out to us

469

here at Destination Northern Ontario

and specifically the TEN program, you've

470

got the opportunity to talk to other

operators, you, you have the opportunity

471

to talk to trained specialists who have

worked with operators not only across

472

this region but across the country

and in some cases internationally,

473

and they can, uh, really help you.

474

And, you know, do some of those self

assessments and, uh, get involved with

475

some of the training and, you know,

we've got best practice missions.

476

We'll get you out to, to see

those best practices, not only

477

here at home, but further afield.

478

And the idea is we want anyone that

comes to Northern Ontario to be able

479

to not only expect, um, but know that

they're going to have a good experience

480

here in the North, so that we get

known as a destination of choice.

481

There are destinations in the world that

don't have to spend a lot of marketing

482

because people just know about them.

483

Karen Peacock: Right.

484

David MacLachlan: And, you know,

485

still word of mouth and those personal

recommendations that might come a

486

little differently through social

media, but if you're not getting return

487

business, or you're not getting those

referrals, you need to figure out why.

488

Karen Peacock: Yeah, definitely.

489

You mentioned best practice missions.

490

This coming May, we're going to head to

Collingwood in Grey-Bruce County and look

491

at accommodation providers who've done

really a great job at renovating motels.

492

And so now there's this opportunity,

and we're seeing that come to life in

493

southwestern Ontario, and we decided

that, you know, let's go on the road and

494

we'll do a best practice mission in May.

495

Can you help connect the dots of

how we got from realizing that

496

best practice missions are, are

great, and why should people come

497

out and join something like that?

498

David MacLachlan: Well, I think

in terms of this particular best

499

practice mission, and you know,

right now we're in the process of

500

developing a destination master plan.

501

One of the consultants that

are doing it, it's around the

502

availability of accommodations

and specifically accommodations

503

that meet visitor expectations.

504

So, we know that's a challenge here

for us in Northern Ontario, and that

505

we can and we need to do better.

506

So, I think that's the rationale

that led to, you know, this

507

particular best practice mission.

508

But, what a great opportunity to

kind of get out from your business

509

to be with other operators or

other people in the tourism sector

510

and get a different perspective.

511

It doesn't mean that what you see

is exactly, we're not giving you a

512

blueprint to take home, but we're,

we're getting out to show best practices

513

and maybe there's something here or

something there that you can take back.

514

Maybe you'll put your own twist on it.

515

The idea is to be able to raise that

bar in terms of visitor appeal, so that

516

maybe you can raise your room rates.

517

And, maybe that will make a big difference

in terms of your bottom line in your

518

business or your ability to reinvest in

your business, or maybe there's something

519

that you want to do in your personal life.

520

Um, and so if you can increase your

revenue stream and get a customer base

521

that's, uh, returning and referring.

522

And, um, you know, eventually

when it comes time to retire,

523

it means you should get a better

price for your business as well.

524

It's just all part of a well

functioning tourism landscape.

525

Karen Peacock: An ecosystem.

526

David MacLachlan: That's right.

527

And like you said, these aren't

about everyone being a five star.

528

Uh, it's just about you being

the best that you can be.

529

Karen Peacock: Yeah, and you know,

some of the places that we're going

530

to are not the fishing lodge, right?

531

These are motels, but as you said, you can

pick and choose from, seeing what you're

532

going to see and experience what you're

going to experience on the best practice.

533

And as we like to say, it's great R&D,

"rob and duplicate," and being able

534

to bring some of those nuggets home.

535

One of the greatest things, I think, that

come out of the best practice missions is

536

the peer to peer relationship development.

537

And so, if you're meeting a owner of an

accommodation in southwestern Ontario, or

538

the Cabot Trail, or wherever it is that

we go on these best practice missions, the

539

ability to develop that relationship with

the people, the owners that we're visiting

540

with, it's just so, uh, concrete, right?

541

And you get that face to face

opportunity to talk with and to

542

learn from those people and, and

bring that relationship home.

543

David MacLachlan: Yeah, and I think,

too, the, the other thing that, that

544

happens is that people are, they're able

to be taken out of their comfort zone.

545

And, and I think a lot of times people

are just, they're very close to the

546

action, and you don't see things

the way your visitor might see them.

547

Karen Peacock: Great.

548

David MacLachlan: And I think that's

really important that you're able to

549

go back into your business and look

at it through a visitor's first lens.

550

When you walk into a room, what's the

first thing that draws your attention?

551

Is it a crooked curtain rod?

552

Is it just something small, or

are you happy with what you see?

553

And I, and I think that's part of

the best practice mission is, is

554

being able to walk in and talk with

other operators around, um, how do

555

you evaluate what you're seeing.

556

Karen Peacock: Mm hmm, yeah, great.

557

Just in terms of workforce, I

mean, we are experiencing and

558

have for a number of years now a

labour shortage and a skills gap.

559

What are you noticing in Northern Ontario

with respect to that and recruitment of

560

staff and being able to retain staff?

561

David MacLachlan: Yeah,

so, you know, a few things.

562

So one, during the pandemic, we

know that we lost a lot of our

563

workers through temporary layoffs.

564

Like people that left, maybe they

found other jobs, maybe they didn't,

565

but they certainly did not come back.

566

So that, that's created a gap.

567

I'm not hearing that so much at this

point, um, but we do know from our

568

fast tracks that, um, roughly half our

tourism businesses are still reporting

569

that they're having trouble finding

staff or we're noticing, while we're

570

there, that, you know, roughly half

the staff need some kind of, training,

571

and, uh, could be doing better.

572

So, just another aspect of

the tourism landscape that we

573

need to, to pay attention to.

574

Um, as well as the visitor

appeal and other items.

575

So, uh, I think the prognosis is looking

better, but we will see what happens here.

576

It's going to be very interesting.

577

From my experience, you know, having been

through a number of recessions now, you

578

know, when we go through a recession,

all of a sudden, like, there's a lot of

579

workers and good quality workers for the

tourism sector, and then the economy picks

580

up, and then people are going back to

work at the lumber mill or somewhere else.

581

And, you know, it's

somewhat cyclical that way.

582

But I think where we need to get to,

um, essentially is that people working

583

in this sector are being paid a living

wage, and are able to afford to do

584

all the things that we want to do.

585

And Northern Ontario is still,

compared to other places in Ontario

586

and across the country, people can

still come here and buy a house

587

and have a good quality of life.

588

So that's, uh, that's another

bonus for, uh, for working in

589

tourism in Northern Ontario.

590

Karen Peacock: Definitely.

591

And, can you share with us, you know,

we've talked about succession planning

592

in some, in, in conversations, right?

593

Can you share with us what the

opportunity looks like in Northern

594

Ontario for owning your own business?

595

David MacLachlan: Yeah, and I think

when it comes to tourism, that's the

596

real opportunity is the ability to

be, your own boss and entrepreneur.

597

And, certainly we know that there's

a lot of gray hair in the sector,

598

and yes, I'm looking in the mirror.

599

and, so there is opportunity, right,

to buy an existing business, or, maybe

600

an underperforming business, or even

just get started in the business.

601

And, when you're looking at, like,

over a million dollars for a house

602

in Toronto or a million and a half in

Vancouver, to shell out three quarters

603

of a million to a million dollars for

a business that's going to generate

604

your income, it doesn't look too bad.

605

And, uh, it's a great business, for sure.

606

Karen Peacock: Gives you a

different perspective on it, right?

607

David MacLachlan: Yeah, a hundred percent.

608

Karen Peacock: When you

look at it in that way.

609

David MacLachlan: And I think a lot

of times people buy a business or,

610

you know, they buy a restaurant.

611

We've all experienced this.

612

You know, it was our favourite restaurant.

613

We went to it, it sold, someone came in

and they changed the whole business over,

614

and well, now we don't like it anymore.

615

When you buy a business, be very

careful, you know, even if you want to

616

do the upgrading or you want to change

it, just, just be careful because

617

the existing business or, you know,

consumer base that's there are there

618

because they like it the way it is.

619

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

620

David MacLachlan: So, you know,

if you're going to change things

621

drastically, uh, make sure you

understand that you're going to have

622

to go in and get a whole new clientele.

623

Karen Peacock: Right.

624

Good to know going in.

625

Okay, so let's switch over to forward

looking, future Northern Ontario tourism.

626

So if our goal is to bring more high

quality tourism products and experiences

627

to market, what does Northern Ontario

need to work on to improve in really

628

the short, medium, and long term?

629

David MacLachlan: Well, it's probably

almost the same for all of them.

630

It's um, we know that we're short on

fixed roof accommodations that meet

631

visitor expectation, and just specifically

during the, the height of the tourist

632

season in the summer, it's very hard

to get a room without planning ahead.

633

So, we need to build more hotel rooms.

634

And we're seeing that

happen in the marketplace.

635

So a new hotel is opened in Hornepayne.

636

Um, there's a new hotel

breaking ground in Blind River.

637

Certainly, Thunder Bay and

other cities, we've seen that.

638

Um, I think one of the other things

we're looking at is improvements in terms

639

of our transportation infrastructure.

640

So, even though we're essentially a

rubber tire destination, 94 percent of

641

people coming to Northern Ontario come

with four rubber tires, we still are

642

under serviced when it comes to air,

um, you know, that's not returned to pre

643

pandemic levels for a variety of reasons.

644

And I think improved, um,

improved visitor services.

645

So again, we spend a lot of time talking

about bathrooms, and travel information,

646

and being able to, uh, service our

visitors when they're in market.

647

And, um, you know, when we look to where

people are coming from, most people are

648

psychocentric, so they're, they're looking

for something a little different, but,

649

you know, if they're used to travelling on

four lane divided highways with nice rest

650

areas, um, that's what the expectation

is when they come here as well.

651

So we need to do a better job at that.

652

Karen Peacock: At

providing that, absolutely.

653

Um, can you share with us the importance

of partnerships and collaborations in

654

developing tourism and enhancing tourism

throughout Northern Ontario, and I

655

know we focus on this a lot, um, but

if, if you wouldn't mind sharing with

656

everybody your thoughts on the importance

of partnerships and collaborations.

657

David MacLachlan: Yeah, and it's so

important , you know, not only to

658

our success, but the success of our

tourism partners, the sector as a

659

whole, that we're not duplicating, that

we're not working against each other.

660

So, you know, having those conversations,

collaborating, forming those

661

partnerships is just so important

because, you know, we do have limited

662

resources, so we, we have to, uh,

use those to our, our best advantage.

663

And a lot of times, we might have

a good idea, but together we have a

664

great idea and we can see it through.

665

I've not seen anything suffer because

we were working in partnership with

666

something and I think that's the approach

that we're taking now in terms of

667

tourism product development is, you know,

finding who are those industry champions.

668

So that means, uh, for us to work with

the Great Lakes Cruise Association

669

or, or to work with NOTO in terms of

Experience Fishing and, um, you know,

670

through partnership, being able to

extend our reach and ultimately success.

671

Karen Peacock: Yeah, great.

672

So when we talked about Tourism

Excellence North and Newfoundland

673

and, uh, that, Newfoundland

is such a great example.

674

The commercials that they come up with,

the magazines, the whole landscape of the

675

tourism, and, you know, we're striving

to really get to that, 10 percent of

676

revenue in terms of tourism dollars.

677

Can you, can you paint the picture what

tourism in Northern Ontario looks like

678

from your perspective in the future?

679

What do you see?

680

Paint that vivid picture for us.

681

David MacLachlan: Well, I think

when we talk about Newfoundland

682

and Labrador, I think that kind

of ties it together for everyone.

683

Like, they really do get it at that point.

684

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

685

David MacLachlan: And, um, what I would

like to see, you know, where us end up

686

is, that Northern Ontario is just known

as a great place to come and, and visit.

687

Um, a couple things, uh, I remember on

the Northern Committee, one of the Elders

688

from Tamagami First Nation talking about

Northern Ontario as a place to come

689

and bring balance back into your life.

690

I would really like to see a

cohesive tourism landscape where

691

people came, um, they were happy,

they had the food offerings, they

692

had the in market services, that,

we had ample accommodations.

693

And, um, that we see those numbers

grow, and we see that our tourism

694

sector is confident and profitable.

695

Karen Peacock: Mm hmm.

696

Wonderful.

697

Okay, we're closing in on the end of

our conversation Is there any final

698

thoughts that you have that you'd

like to share, question that I haven't

699

asked that you'd like to, to answer?

700

David MacLachlan: Well, maybe

just, um, I was thinking, uh,

701

about a couple things here.

702

We're talking about Newfoundland and

Labrador, so you know, from the work that

703

we've done and the conversations that

we've had with people on the East Coast

704

that we're a very similar destination.

705

Karen Peacock: Yes.

706

David MacLachlan: So before the

pandemic, I think Newfoundland and

707

Labrador was able to get their tourism

receipts up to, I think it was like $1.2

708

billion, it might have

been a little higher.

709

That was the last number that I remember.

710

We're starting from $2.4.

711

We've got so much opportunity.

712

We're closer to market.

713

Um, we're not dependent on airlift,

we have more tourism operators, we

714

have more products and experiences.

715

Like we really are in a position to

grow this sector in, in a big way.

716

We just got some key things that we need

to do, but really, for us, is finding

717

some incremental dollars that, that we

can just tell people what we have here.

718

Karen Peacock: Yes.

719

Yeah.

720

And if I remember, Newfoundland, uh,

tell us about their repeat visitors, in

721

comparison to Ontario or Northern Ontario.

722

David MacLachlan: Yeah, they've got a

real challenge, uh, I think, you know,

723

in the fact that the people we talked

to, told us that they had to get 90

724

percent new business every year, which

is, that is, that is just really hard,

725

and so, our message to government is

that, you know, we will do a better

726

job at attracting and retaining those

visitors here in Northern Ontario.

727

And you know, we're not a

bucket list destination.

728

And I, I don't know about you, but I

find from my travels that there's very

729

few destinations that actually form an

emotional bond, uh, with the visitor.

730

Um, you know, certainly there are

those places that are around the

731

world, um, but Northern Ontario is

one of those places, and once somebody

732

comes here once, they will be back.

733

Karen Peacock: They've made a friend

for life in Northern Ontario, really.

734

David, I have one more question for you.

735

What is your most memorable, uh,

vacation or experience while on vacation?

736

David MacLachlan: Wow.

737

Well, I'll tell you, and, I guess I've

been drinking too much northern Kool-Aid.

738

Um, you know, when we were kids, and

we grew up in the west end of Toronto,

739

and, um, when June came, and the

trunks came out, this is back in the

740

late 60s, like back in those days,

people traveled with trunks, right?

741

We were coming up for the summer and,

you know, the summer clothes went in.

742

I mean, we would get so excited.

743

Sometimes we drove,

sometimes we took the train.

744

But when we started up north and

seeing those first rock cuts and the

745

bridge at French River, uh, we knew

that we were somewhere pretty special.

746

That's what I remember.

747

And, being at the lodge and in the

morning, like a beautiful morning

748

and, and just smelling the bacon,

you know, cooking from the kitchen.

749

I'm sure, I'm sure the bears liked it

too, but anyways, that's my childhood.

750

Wonderful.

751

Thank you for sharing that.

752

Karen Peacock: Next time on Let's Talk

Northern Ontario Tourism, I sit down with

753

Chris Hughes, a TEN training specialist

and master experience crafter with BC

754

Hughes Tourism Consulting to pick his

brain about how to develop memorable

755

products and experiences that will

create more revenue for your business.

756

Follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcast

to make sure you don't miss it.

757

Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is an

initiative of Tourism Excellence North and

758

recorded on the traditional territories

of the Anishinaabek and the Mushkegowuk.

759

It is produced by Storied Places

Media with support from Erica Richard,

760

Naza Obasi, and Gillian McCullough.

761

I'm Karen Peacock.

762

Thanks for listening.