In this episode of Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism, host Karen Peacock sits down with Carol Greenwood, VP of Operations and Partnerships at the Tourism Industry Association of Ontario (TIAO). They start with a discussion on TIAO's advocacy role and the key issues it’s raising with the provincial and federal governments before diving into its work to advance sustainable tourism across Ontario. Carol answers the questions of why TIAO became GreenStep certified, what that means for day-to-day operations, and why Northern Ontario tourism organizations and businesses should seriously consider getting certified too. 

• 01:25 Meet Carol Greenwood
• 05:03 How TIAO Serves as the Voice of Ontario’s Tourism Sector
• 08:36 Key Issues the Sector is Facing
• 14:48 A Primer on Sustainable Tourism
• 17:14 TIAO's Role in Advancing Sustainable Tourism
• 22:03 Why TIAO Became GreenStep Certified and What it Means
• 29:20 Why Organizations and Businesses Should Care About Sustainable Tourism
• 31:50 Measuring and Improving Sustainability Performance Over Time
• 33:11 The GreenStep Certification Process and Benefits
• 36:17 Advice for Organizations and Businesses Interested in GreenStep Certification

About the Tourism Industry Association of Ontario (TIAO) and GreenStep

• TIAO website - tiaontario.ca
• TIAO’s GreenStep webpage - tiaontario.ca/cpages/sustainabletourism2030
• GreenStep’s Sustainable Tourism 2030 Pledge page - sustainabletourism2030.com/pledge
• IMPACT Sustainability Travel & Tourism Regional Event (May 5-6, 2025) webpage - tiaontario.ca/events/impact-sustainability-travel-tourism-ontario-a-regional-event-2
• Facebook - facebook.com/TIAONTARIO
• Instagram - instagram.com/tiaogram
• LinkedIn - ca.linkedin.com/company/tiaontario
• X - x.com/TIAOtweets

About the podcast

Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is a podcast for tourism operators and industry stakeholders featuring experts who understand what it means to run a tourism business or organization here in Northern Ontario. Through casual conversations, you’ll learn about cutting edge topics like AI marketing, Cruise Ship Tourism, and trends that are shaking up the industry. Plus, you can tune in  while driving or doing chores.

For even more  insights that’ll help you grow your business, organization, or community, connect with Tourism Excellence North, which is part of Destination Northern Ontario:

• Website - tourismexcellencenorth.ca
• Facebook - facebook.com/DestinationNorthernOntario
• Instagram - instagram.com/destinationnorthernontario
• LinkedIn - linkedin.com/company/destinationnorthernontario

If you like podcasts, DNO has another one called Destination: Northern Ontario. Season 1 is for people thinking about buying a tourism business, and Season 2 has helpful advice for new tourism operators. 

 Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is an initiative of Tourism Excellence North and is recorded on the traditional territories of the Anishinaabek and the Mushkegowuk. It is hosted by Karen Peacock and produced by Storied Places Media with support from Erica Richard, Naza Obasi, and Gillian McCullough.

We need to change some of our practices so that we're attractive,

2

because they will say they don't want to

work in that industry if it's not being

3

inclusive, if it's not being sustainable.

4

Karen Peacock: Welcome to Let's Talk

Northern Ontario Tourism, a podcast

5

for tourism operators and industry

stakeholders featuring experts who

6

actually understand what it means

to run a tourism business or tourism

7

organization here in Northern Ontario.

8

I'm Karen Peacock.

9

In this episode, I chat with Carol

Greenwood, VP of Operations and

10

Partnerships for the Tourism Industry

Association of Ontario, AKA TIAO.

11

We spend some time talking about TIAO's

advocacy role and the big issues it's

12

been working on for the past few years.

13

But the real focus of this episode

is TIAO's efforts to make Ontario's

14

tourism sector more sustainable.

15

Carol and I cover why TIAO became

GreenStep certified, what that means, and

16

why your tourism business or organization

should consider getting certified too.

17

I hope you enjoy.

18

Well, welcome, Carol.

19

And I'm just, I'm very excited.

20

Thank you so much for being my guest.

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Carol Greenwood: Of course, it's always

great to have a conversation with you,

22

Karen, so I'm looking forward to it.

23

Who knows where it'll go?

24

Karen Peacock: Absolutely.

25

Okay, so let's start with hopefully

what is an easy question.

26

Carol, what's your background, if

you don't mind sharing, uh, with the

27

tourism industry as well as Tourism

Industry Association of Ontario?

28

Carol Greenwood: Yeah, well, I went to

school for a business degree and finance

29

degree specializing in hospitality

and tourism at what is now TMU, but at

30

that time when I went, it was Ryerson.

31

And I went immediately

into the accommodation side

32

and into the hotel side.

33

Karen Peacock: Oh, interesting.

34

Carol Greenwood: Yeah, I very

quickly appreciated that food

35

and beverage was not for me.

36

I appreciate and respect that side of

the industry, but I really, I leaned

37

into sort of the marketing and the sales

and operations side of accommodations.

38

And so, I worked for many, many

years with, uh, Accor, which owns the

39

Novotels, the Sofitel, and in recent

years took over Fairmont Hotels,

40

Karen Peacock: Okay.

41

Carol Greenwood: And I was

a Regional Director of Sales

42

in Ontario when I left them.

43

And then I started my own

organization called G.A.P.

44

Solutions, Greenwood and Partners.

45

Put a dot between that G, A, and

P so I didn't get, you know, sued.

46

And it was, uh, individuals that were

experienced in the industry specifically

47

in business development that would work

with organizations on a temporary basis

48

for anybody that was on maternity leave

or paternity leave or medical leave so

49

that the organization didn't have the

ebbs and flows during those situations

50

that sometimes businesses go through.

51

Karen Peacock: Right, right.

52

Carol Greenwood: And I did that for

10 years and I had people working with

53

me, did that all around North America.

54

Um, and then I decided that I wanted

to see the other side of the industry

55

and, sort of behind the scenes, the

part that isn't very forefront, at

56

least it wasn't in my experience

from the accommodation side.

57

So there was a position, somebody

told me about it, at the Tourism

58

Industry Association of Ontario,

and sort of, I wanted to see how the

59

industry worked from the underside.

60

So it was appealing to me, and

they were looking for somebody

61

that was really going to support in

partnership and business relations.

62

And that is how I became, uh, with TAIO.

63

And I've been here since, I

guess we're at nine years now.

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Karen Peacock: Wow, interesting.

65

And you and I are both nine years then at

our current organizations and positions.

66

Carol Greenwood: Yeah.

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Karen Peacock: And, really interesting

to hear you talk about this side

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of the industry, of the tourism

industry, isn't really well known.

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Carol Greenwood: Yeah.

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Karen Peacock: As we work through

the Tourism Skills Net North program,

71

and have delved into awareness around

tourism careers, it's one part of

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the industry that really doesn't

have a lot of awareness around it.

73

Carol Greenwood: You know, now in all

fairness, maybe if I was a general

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manager or maybe if I was in that side,

I might've been more engaged in awareness

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of it, but it was just interesting to

see how that it's, you know, the things

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that we work on at TAIO and the things

that you work on with Destination

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Northern Ontario, they, you know, help

the business continue to move forward

78

and to be able to earn and to grow and

to help, you know, advocate on their

79

behalf to ensure that those regulations

and policies are in place is critical.

80

So it just was interesting.

81

I had never been aware of it.

82

And so it's been an educational

process, and I've always been a curious

83

person, so it's been a joy to be here.

84

Karen Peacock: And very

fulsome, I would imagine.

85

Carol Greenwood: Mm-hmm.

86

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

87

Carol Greenwood: For sure.

88

Karen Peacock: Well, maybe we can

dive into our next question and

89

you can share with us what TAIO,

or Tourism Industry Association

90

of Ontario, is and what it does.

91

And I guess in addition to, or,

you know, on the side of who

92

does TAIO work on behalf of?

93

Carol Greenwood: Yeah, for sure.

94

So, TAIO is the advocacy organization

that works first and foremost

95

for the tourism operators,

destination marketing organizations,

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regional tourism organizations.

97

You know, anybody that impacts tourism

in Ontario, we work on behalf of them,

98

advocating to the provincial government.

99

Now, we do work with the municipal

governments as well, because you

100

know, that's important to help and

support that from the ground up.

101

But because of the size and scope of

Ontario, there are a lot of regulations

102

that, myself, I admitted that I wasn't

aware of before, is a federal regulation

103

versus a provincial regulation.

104

There's a lot of those that

impact Ontario's business.

105

So we work with our counterparts at

TIAC, which is the Tourism Industry

106

Association of Canada, that their

role is they advocate on behalf of

107

the country to the federal government.

108

And so we work with them.

109

And so we'll either bring in a situation

forward that we want to address federally

110

and will ask if that's on their priority.

111

If not, we will go on behalf of Ontario

to the federal government and align

112

with them, or we will sit with them

as they're with that issue to make

113

sure that Ontario's message is heard.

114

And, you know, 1 in 10 positions

in Ontario is a tourism job.

115

And so there's 770,000 people that work

in the tourism industry just in Ontario.

116

$32 billion to the GDP, $33 in spending.

117

It's a big industry, and a lot of people

don't necessarily think of tourism as

118

that large, and when you see that size and

scope of how it impacts, it's an industry

119

that can really make a difference in the

overall economic impact, how people live

120

their lives, how businesses operate.

121

And so, TIAO's role is to

advocate to ensure that businesses

122

are able to move forward.

123

Karen Peacock: Wow.

124

It's really great to hear you

explain it and then the connection

125

to the federal government as

well and how TIAC is involved.

126

And of course we are an

industry full of acronyms.

127

Carol Greenwood: Yes.

128

Karen Peacock: It's also really

nice you keep telling us what

129

the actual names are as well.

130

Carol Greenwood: It's true, and I think

that that comes from, you know, my

131

experience from being in the operations

in the industry, so it's like when I'm

132

working with partners and I'm helping to

explain what we do, I'm always thinking,

133

Oh, I didn't know what that was, so I

probably should share that information.

134

And once you, if you know

it, great, we move forward.

135

If not, it helps to move it forward.

136

But there are times when I might miss one.

137

So please, if I've done an

acronym, please let me know.

138

Karen Peacock: I will, and I'll

share a really quick story.

139

We were on our first Best Practice

Mission and I remember, you know,

140

we had workbooks for everybody.

141

We worked so hard to put all this

information, but we had acronyms, and

142

a number of us were talking in acronyms

and one person put up his hand and

143

said, can we drop all the acronyms?

144

And in this workbook the next time,

could you please spell out all the words

145

because I have no idea what these mean.

146

And it was an operator, right?

147

And so from then we started putting

a glossary in the back of our

148

Best Practice Mission workbooks

of acronyms, just to help out.

149

Carol Greenwood: Oh, for sure.

150

You know, you can have several

sentences in and people have no idea

151

what you're talking about at all.

152

Karen Peacock: Yes.

153

Carol Greenwood: And so, like, to

that point, just to give you an

154

example of what a federal regulation

versus a provincial one is.

155

You know, transportation is federal.

156

And so, of course, there's issues that

we're working on on the regional airports,

157

which is a big issue for the North and

for that accessibility and transportation.

158

Those are really key issues.

159

And so that's a federal regulation,

but it's so important to Ontario.

160

So we're involved with that.

161

You know, anything surrounding

the borders is a federal issue.

162

That's not a provincial issue.

163

And so it's important for us to really

have those good relationships as well

164

outside of the provincial ones to

ensure that we're really representing

165

the businesses in Ontario effectively.

166

Karen Peacock: Fantastic.

167

And so I know you just mentioned a

couple of key ones, transportation and

168

the border, but can you catch us up

on the history of the Tourism Industry

169

Association of Ontario, and in particular,

maybe focus in on what the last few

170

years have been like since COVID?

171

Carol Greenwood: Yeah, you know, I sort

of make the joke if there's a time for an

172

advocacy organization, it's a pandemic,

and so I think we got a lot more well

173

known through that process because there

were definitely issues and engagement

174

with government that needed to happen.

175

And quite honestly, the operator needed

support, and it's been a very rewarding

176

experience as we've been able to help to

support people through their businesses.

177

A lot of people lost businesses.

178

Tourism is one of those unique industries

that it's also quite personal, because

179

a lot of times these are, it might be

a resort, it might be a guide service,

180

but it's the family's business.

181

You know, it's not always a

small business, sometimes larger.

182

And so, they were very much feeling how

it was impacting them as an individual,

183

not just working for someone else.

184

Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

185

Carol Greenwood: And so, as we've come

through, it's been really important for

186

us that one of the things we learned

during COVID was that it was really

187

important, I know it might seem obvious,

but it's really important to listen and

188

to really hear almost what's not being

said so that you can ask those questions.

189

Because one of the things that we find

to be the most effective when we're

190

doing policy and advocacy, you know, if

I'm able to talk to the operators and

191

find out from them about their specific

situation, having those fact-based,

192

real life situations and how it's

happening on the ground, it impacts.

193

So when you're speaking to the ministries,

you're showing this change in regulation,

194

this is the result it's going to have.

195

And this is just one operator.

196

And then when you bring in the

stats, the data that we have on the

197

industry, it really can be impactful.

198

Now, it's not always a fast process,

for sure, but it's important that we're

199

always spending time in listening.

200

And so we have really tried to take the

time as we've come from the pandemic

201

listening, but also really engaging and

supporting them and getting out of their

202

way, you know, so that they can actually

start moving forward in their business.

203

And it's, we've continued to help

them grow, but in the same respect,

204

I have found that since the pandemic,

there has been many other issues.

205

And because we're now so used

to digital, everything happens

206

much faster in that respect.

207

There's always, you know, something

looming that we need to help support.

208

And so, it keeps us busy every day.

209

Karen Peacock: Absolutely.

210

I'm curious about what you have heard.

211

What have been sort of the top things

that in listening to people, what have

212

you heard over the last few years?

213

Carol Greenwood: So, I mean,

transportation is across the board with

214

Ontario, and specifically, you know,

it depends on where you are in Ontario

215

as to what is, you know, the issue.

216

But transportation as a

general is key for sure.

217

What I mean by that is the

regional airports, we spoke

218

about that a little bit earlier.

219

It's also that sort of last kilometer,

you might be able to get to a

220

location, but then the infrastructure

really isn't designed for visitors.

221

It might be designed for the local,

but it's not helping people get to

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the next part of their destination,

and so it's really working at the

223

infrastructure of our transportation.

224

That's been up there as number,

uh, one of the top ones.

225

Another one over the last couple of

years is the Municipal Accommodation

226

Tax and sort of the lack of consistency

that there is across the province.

227

You know, it was initially designed

to be something that was purposeful in

228

customization, but that has not always

worked so well across the province,

229

and so, um, more and more are doing it.

230

It's also in areas that don't

necessarily have roofed accommodations.

231

It creates an imbalance, right?

232

So that has been a major issue.

233

And so for the first time, actually,

just this year, it's been seven years

234

since that tax has been in place, we

actually met with many of our stakeholders

235

and we went to the municipality and

with the provincial government talking

236

about recommendations moving forward

for the Municipal Accommodation Tax.

237

Another one probably, I would say, and

it's less so now because we seem to be

238

getting a little bit better, but for quite

a while it was about connectivity in the

239

rural areas, and sort of that consistency

and connectivity because depending on

240

where you are, the technology isn't

exactly at the level that it needs to be

241

in order to have that digital presence.

242

And so a lot of that got ramped up and

resolved a lot during COVID because, of

243

course, we became very dependent on this.

244

But then the other one has been

around sustainable tourism itself.

245

So that has been something

that has been, you know, it's

246

always part of the conversation.

247

Karen Peacock: Right.

248

And you gave me a great opening, because

really that's what we're here to talk

249

about a little bit more and dive a little

deeper into is sustainable tourism.

250

So maybe you can share with us what the

concept of sustainable tourism is for

251

those that are interested and curious?

252

Carol Greenwood: Yeah, so sustainable

tourism, I mean, there's different

253

names that have been out there and

each one of them can take on a little

254

bit nuances and difference, but I'll

tell you what sustainable tourism

255

means for TIAO and how we position it.

256

Karen Peacock: Great.

257

Carol Greenwood: Really, it's

being responsible in what you're

258

doing to not incur any waste.

259

You know, you want to be able

to leave things better than the

260

way that you arrived at a place.

261

It's ensuring that you're able to do

things in a way that is not having

262

any negative impact on our earth.

263

But the other part of it is for

us, for TIAO, it is more than just

264

the environmental or the climate.

265

It's also about the people.

266

Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

267

Carol Greenwood: And it's about

having that social element.

268

You know, it's about recognizing that you

need to be able to earn a living wage in

269

order to be able to live where you work.

270

It's understanding about people's

cultures and their practices and

271

who they are, because traditionally,

or what was called tradition, isn't

272

necessarily how the makeup of our

industry is and how our people are.

273

And so what can we do to ensure that we're

having a more inclusive, whether that's

274

culture, whether that's accessibility,

whether it's how you identify.

275

And the other part of sustainability

is really, sort of leaning in and and

276

learning from Indigenous practices.

277

They were the ultimate

people around sustainability.

278

Karen Peacock: Yes.

279

Carol Greenwood: So it's, you know,

asking, listening, and seeing how we

280

maybe need to stop what we're doing and

do it in a way that was done originally.

281

And so, all those things being said,

there are business advantages, no

282

question, but that isn't the original

intent around sustainable tourism.

283

It's really about, you know, ensuring

that we're able to move forward and you

284

know, if you don't have a workforce,

it doesn't really matter what you're

285

doing, you can't be sustainable, right?

286

So,

287

Karen Peacock: Yes.

288

Carol Greenwood: It's having a sustainable

workforce, having a sustainable business,

289

practicing sustainability for the climate.

290

Karen Peacock: Okay, so really

interesting, Carol, I think, to hear you

291

talk about sustainable tourism and the

different ways in which it impacts us:

292

living wage, workforce, accessibility.

293

Can you talk to us a little bit about

how sustainable tourism then fits into

294

the work that TAIO does, or perhaps

what role TAIO is taking with respect

295

to sustainable tourism and these other

components that you were talking about?

296

Carol Greenwood: Yeah, absolutely.

297

So, I mean, there's a couple of

different areas I can talk to you about

298

TAIO as an organization itself and

our own personal practices that we do.

299

But also then in the work

that we do with the industry.

300

So with the industry itself, we

actually run the Sustainability

301

Travel & Tourism Conference.

302

It's an Ontario regional event.

303

It's modeled after the event that

happens in British Columbia every

304

year, and that one is a much more

national focus, and global focus really.

305

Um, but we wanted to have a conference

that was here in Ontario that

306

really allowed, as I indicated,

that sort of ground up approach,

307

Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

308

Carol Greenwood: that allowed for those

tourism operators that were interested in

309

moving forward with a sustainable practice

or a destination or a region that wanted

310

to move forward, that they could do so

where they were, whether it was through

311

certification, whether it was, you know,

learning and having that education.

312

And so we started that

conference three years ago.

313

One of the things about Ontario

is that 20 percent of the globe's

314

freshwater is in our province.

315

And so, you know, it's wonderful.

316

Um, everything that happens, you

know, at the global conference,

317

it's very inspiring and interesting,

but, you know, we're unique.

318

We don't have saltwater.

319

We have freshwater and

it's really important.

320

And so we wanted to bring it forward

to really be reflective of the people

321

that we had here in Ontario and the

things that they were looking at.

322

Whether it was the flooding that was

happening in Ontario, whether it was

323

the wildfires in the north, you know,

those climate perspectives and that

324

preparation, but also then the practice

of sustainability within business.

325

And so, we actually worked with a

program that was provided to us through

326

FedDev, we had the ability to do that.

327

We received a grant and it was called

Advancing Sustainable Tourism in Ontario

328

because one of the things that we

realized when we were doing research, you

329

know, if most people say to you, what

province is the most sustainable province

330

in Canada, most people will say...

331

Karen Peacock: British Columbia.

332

Carol Greenwood: British

Columbia, of course.

333

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

334

Carol Greenwood: And so what I found

out was in British Columbia, there

335

wasn't a lot of tourism businesses

that were actually certified.

336

Karen Peacock: Oh, interesting.

337

Carol Greenwood: Individuals,

for sure, they were.

338

But there wasn't a lot of tourism

businesses that were certified, and sort

339

of how this ran parallel with the work

we were doing in workforce and working

340

with the colleges and universities and

talking to high school students about,

341

you know, having a career in tourism, and

you're familiar with that, with all the

342

work that you do here in the North, those

students, you know, they live their life

343

not even questioning about recycling.

344

Karen Peacock: So true.

345

Carol Greenwood: If it doesn't

happen, that's where they're

346

going to call you out on it.

347

Karen Peacock: Yes.

348

Carol Greenwood: And if you're not being,

you know, sustainable in your social

349

practices, or you're not being inclusive,

they'll call you out on that too.

350

And so there was so much to learn from

them, and I really was like, if we want to

351

continue to be an industry that allows it

to be sustainable, we need to change some

352

of our practices so that we're attractive,

because they will say they don't want to

353

work in that industry if it's not being

inclusive, if it's not being sustainable,

354

if it's not practicing and leaving this

earth better than how they arrived.

355

Karen Peacock: Yes.

356

Carol Greenwood: So it came from,

like, there was the workforce

357

element that was part of it as well.

358

And then there was the environmental that

our industry was dealing with in Ontario.

359

And so really looking at

it in a different way.

360

So when we looked and we found out that

there wasn't that many businesses that

361

had actually been certified, that's

when I came out with the "Game On BC"

362

program, where we wanted to allow and

support our businesses in becoming

363

sustainably certified so that we could

be the most sustainable tourism business

364

province in Canada, of which we are.

365

Karen Peacock: Wonderful.

366

Carol Greenwood: And we

have been now for two years.

367

Now, the others are catching up.

368

Quebec have "Game On Quebec".

369

And that's great, because

370

Karen Peacock: It is.

371

Carol Greenwood: you know, the more

that we practice and we move forward

372

with this, the better it is overall.

373

But it just makes it a little bit

more, you know, competitive and

374

Karen Peacock: Fun!

375

Carol Greenwood: Yeah.

376

Karen Peacock: Absolutely.

377

I know that TIAO has become

GreenStep certified, right?

378

Which is where we're

talking in and around.

379

So, how is TIAO involved with the

GreenStep program then, specifically?

380

I know you got your certification,

but is there more to it in terms of

381

what you're describing to have more

Ontario businesses certified as well?

382

Carol Greenwood: Yeah, so, I

mean, we work with GreenStep.

383

GreenStep does the certification.

384

They're the experts.

385

And one of the reasons why we opted to

go with GreenStep, we looked at a lot

386

of different programs, and we've been

working with them now for a number of

387

years, but they're the only organization

in Canada that is actually recognized by

388

the Global Sustainable Tourism Council,

and it offers the only destination

389

certification program based in Canada.

390

So, they offer this for businesses

as well as destinations.

391

The other thing that they offer

within the GSTC is the Sustainable

392

Tourism 2030 Pledge, and that's free.

393

But what it sort of allows is, you

know how it's like in anything in

394

life, if you don't commit to something

or write it down that you're gonna do

395

it, sometimes you just don't do it.

396

And so the Sustainable 2030 Pledge allows

those organizations or operators to commit

397

to they're gonna look into what they

can start to do differently and better.

398

Whether it's big or whether it's small.

399

And so that's something we also encourage

400

GreenStep is also a B Corp.

401

And so, the interesting part about

the B Corp acronym is that it really

402

isn't an acronym, it's just simply B.

403

But that being said, it's about

businesses that are a force for good,

404

that really look at taking care of

their employees as well as their

405

communities and consumers and environment.

406

So for us, as an organization,

it's how we do business.

407

And so part of the process,

it's sort of an ongoing thing.

408

Whenever we enter into a partnership,

whenever we rent a facility to hold our

409

summits, or whenever, you know, when

we're doing agreements, sustainability

410

is part of the conversation.

411

Karen Peacock: Right.

412

Carol Greenwood: Because we want to

know the practices that are in place.

413

It's not necessarily making these huge

strides, it's little steps each day.

414

I think that's the thing with

sustainability, is that it becomes a

415

practice, and it's about asking questions.

416

We ask those questions, and it

might make the decision whether

417

we go with the supplier or not, or

whether we include it in something

418

we're about to do in a new action.

419

That's probably the biggest

change that it's had for us.

420

It's trying to have that narrative

in ourselves that we're asking those

421

questions always so that we're able

to walk the talk and set the example.

422

Karen Peacock: It's so fantastic.

423

And so when you go to rent a venue

and hire the caterers for your

424

summit or your conference, what are

the questions then that you ask?

425

Carol Greenwood: Well, some of them are

questions and some of them are asking

426

if they'll consider this instead.

427

For example, ask them about their

heating and cooling, like, do

428

they have sustainable practices?

429

Do they have a sustainable

policy, and will they share it?

430

And within that policy, we

asked them about, from their

431

human resources perspective, do

they have an inclusive policy?

432

Like, what is that process?

433

Karen Peacock: So cool, Carol.

434

Carol Greenwood: Yeah, we asked them

about, you You know, things like how

435

do they handle water on the tables?

436

We can have a water station where you

can go fill your glass and get water that

437

you need, but not just have water wasted.

438

You know, part of this process is that

I have to remember in the programming

439

of events that we have to share

that this is how we've made these

440

decisions so that people don't go, how

come there's no water on the table?

441

You know, and it's just, it's

also part of that education that

442

that was a purposeful decision.

443

A couple of years ago we got beautiful

lanyards that were designed by an

444

Indigenous artisan here in Ontario,

and we started working with them in

445

May, and until October, until we had

enough in that year, we were able

446

to, everybody had this lanyard to

encourage them to not have that waste.

447

Now, a lot of conferences are good, they

collect lanyards at the end of that,

448

Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

449

Carol Greenwood: But I can't tell you the

amount of people that stop when I wear

450

this at a conference that isn't ours and

they see it, or you see someone across

451

the room that you know has been at your

conference and they're wearing theirs.

452

Karen Peacock: Yes.

453

Carol Greenwood: This was

supporting Indigenous artisans.

454

It looks spectacular and

it's cutting down on waste.

455

So, it's these little

things that we do along.

456

Um, you know, last year, one of the

things that we did and I was very

457

impressed with the audiovisual company

that we used in this process, we asked

458

if they had an accessible podium.

459

Karen Peacock: Oh, interesting.

460

Carol Greenwood: And they said,

we don't, but we can get one.

461

And I said, well, we have a couple

of people that will be speaking that

462

have accessibility issues, and it

would be great if we could get this.

463

And we were willing to pay for it.

464

Karen Peacock: Hmm.

465

Carol Greenwood: Not only did they

have it and it made the person feel

466

incredibly comfortable, we used

that same podium for every speaker,

467

not just when the person with the

accessible needs was speaking at it.

468

We used it for the whole conference.

469

It adjusted.

470

It moved up and down smoothly.

471

It was a great podium.

472

And you might think, well, that's

a podium, it's just a fixture.

473

But that person felt very included.

474

It got noticed.

475

And now this audiovisual company, it's

a standard in their offerings that they

476

have to people outside of our conference,

and they actually have a couple.

477

That's the part that really sort

of, to me, makes a difference

478

is like when you see that you're

impacting change in others as well.

479

We also don't, we very rarely

use paper, we use an app

480

Karen Peacock: Hmm.

481

Carol Greenwood: that we do a

lot of our communication through

482

and that has been an educational

process as well for our industry

483

because we're used to having paper.

484

But once again, the students

they don't ever have paper.

485

So once again, it's about

adapting and adjusting, right?

486

Karen Peacock: Definitely

an evolution, right?

487

And you've given me even just

some great ideas for our Northern

488

Ontario Tourism Summit from a venue

perspective and those questions to ask.

489

You've baked it in.

490

Carol Greenwood: Absolutely, yeah,

and the other part, the part where

491

we, uh, I said to you that we would

ask questions, the audiovisual was

492

one part, but the other thing is we

ask them where they source their food.

493

Karen Peacock: Mmm.

494

Carol Greenwood: Because we really want as

much as possible to use local suppliers,

495

and when it comes to our receptions,

we will only serve Ontario product.

496

So whether it's beer or cider or

non alcohol or wine, it's always

497

representing Ontario product.

498

Karen Peacock: Very nice.

499

Carol Greenwood: And that's not always

on their menu sometimes, but that

500

also makes a decision as to whether

we're going to go with them, whether

501

there's that willingness to do so.

502

Karen Peacock: Right.

503

Carol Greenwood: And, you know, we've

worked with some amazing partners that

504

have sort of really changed things in

their operations to accommodate, to really

505

ensure that we're meeting the needs.

506

Karen Peacock: Wonderful.

507

Okay.

508

So, we've been talking about

sustainable tourism and you've

509

given us so much to think about.

510

Why is it important for tourism

organizations and businesses in Northern

511

Ontario to care about sustainable tourism?

512

Carol Greenwood: I mean, I think probably

Northern Ontario cares about it just sort

513

of naturally, and I know you're a lot

more than what I'm about to say, but when

514

we think of Northern Ontario, we think

of the flora, the fauna, the lakes, the

515

rocks, the beauty, the northern lights.

516

It's really a spectacular and vast area in

Ontario and it just, you know, we need to

517

be more sustainable so we're able to leave

the earth better than when we arrived.

518

And so we need to make sure that

we're not contributing to waste.

519

And there's that you want to preserve

that fresh air and that ability that you

520

love while living in Northern Ontario.

521

But more than that as well,

there's also the workforce element,

522

that sustainable workforce.

523

For a long time, Northern Ontario

talked about the fact that people

524

grew up and they left the north.

525

They might come back, but

a lot of times they left.

526

And so it's really important in

order to be able to still offer those

527

tourism offerings to have that very

inclusive and welcoming environment.

528

Recognizing those different cultures

and those people that have chosen to

529

live in Northern Ontario that may be

not where they grew up, but maybe they

530

went to university there, or maybe they

went to college there, or maybe they

531

went to visit and decided they loved

it and that's where they need to stay,

532

which is, I think, what happens a lot.

533

And, you know, you now have

the cruise ships coming there.

534

There's so much.

535

You know, there continues

to be that exposure.

536

And so, I think it's important to maintain

it and preserve it how it is, but to

537

embrace and look at those ways that you

can continue to operate your business.

538

Northern Ontario has also been

looked at as being the resource area,

539

Karen Peacock: True.

540

Carol Greenwood: and so it's also

being responsible to ensure that

541

we're using things effectively and

efficiently and not wastefully so

542

that, you know, we're protecting that

those large resources that are there.

543

I think it's also important for

us that when people go on vacation

544

in the North, it's important for

them to look at sustainability.

545

So they're helping to educate while

people are on vacation about, you

546

know, that sort of behind the scenes.

547

One of the things that Destination Canada

tells us is that, when you look at

548

those marketing data, is that people love

those local behind the scenes experiences

549

and we need to protect those so that

they can see the impact they're having.

550

Karen Peacock: Absolutely.

551

Yeah.

552

Great, great point.

553

How does TAIO measure and improve its

sustainability performance each year?

554

Carol Greenwood: So that's part of the

assessment that we look at with GreenStep.

555

We look and see sort of where we are with

that, but where we're able to look at how

556

we do things is in sort of our operations.

557

You know, we actually switched offices

not because of sustainable reasons, our

558

office lease was coming up and we changed.

559

But I will tell you, when we picked a

location, we did ask all those questions,

560

and we're now in a shared office space

that happens to be with Destination

561

Toronto and Indigenous Tourism Ontario,

so that in and of itself is positive, but

562

also the building we're in is a building

that really does a lot of those practices.

563

So that was a major thing.

564

That happened three years ago.

565

But where we look at measuring

change, it's really about

566

those events that we're having.

567

We do surveys after the events, we

ask the questions about different

568

sustainability initiatives we've

done and sort of the impact.

569

And then we use that so when we plan

the next event, we're continuing to

570

move forward and maybe not do things

that we had done before because we

571

need to ask a different question.

572

Karen Peacock: Right.

573

Carol Greenwood: Those are the

things of how we got to this year.

574

Asking about the podium was a small

thing, but you know, had a big impact.

575

Karen Peacock: Yeah, it sounds like it.

576

Can you share with us what your experience

with GreenStep has been in terms of

577

the process of becoming certified?

578

Carol Greenwood: Yeah, for sure.

579

And I will be very transparent and I would

say this if GreenStep was in the room.

580

It's a process.

581

It's probably, I think, one of

the biggest resistance might

582

be is the time consumption.

583

Now to do the Pledge, you know, you

can sign up and do the pledge, and

584

that's complimentary, and that's

fine, and that's easy to do, and then

585

you're holding yourself accountable.

586

But if you're actually going through

the certification, it takes some work.

587

Now, each year when you renew,

it's less work because you're just

588

tweaking, you're moving forward.

589

Karen Peacock: Right.

590

Carol Greenwood: But that first work,

it's a lot of investment in time.

591

What I will say about working

with GreenStep is they're

592

incredibly supportive.

593

You know, you can tell them, I'm really

struggling to figure out how to measure

594

this because I'm in a shared office

space and I don't have control of things.

595

Um, or a unique situation, you know,

whether it's, you know, maybe it's

596

about the podium and you have to

explain the reasons, but how does

597

that impact what I'm doing here?

598

How, where would that fall?

599

And they're very good about

walking you through it, sharing,

600

they're very accessible.

601

And even through the process, when we've

been working with them, when I've said,

602

these are some things that the Ontario

industry needs, they're willing to work

603

with us to customize it so it can be

more resourceful for the industry itself.

604

Karen Peacock: Oh, that's so interesting.

605

Okay, so, and what are some of

the benefits that TAIO has noticed

606

with becoming GreenStep certified?

607

Or certified through GreenStep?

608

Carol Greenwood: Um, you know, I've

noticed the change in the conversations.

609

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

610

Carol Greenwood: There's a little

bit of pride about saying that we

611

are the most sustainable tourism

business province in Canada.

612

And, you know, we share that with

as many people as we can tell it to.

613

And we know that others are approaching,

so we're continuing to push that forward.

614

But there's also some credibility

with that because it's with

615

an organization that does have

that recognized certification.

616

Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

617

Carol Greenwood: It's, you know,

there is that recognition that

618

you're actually walking the talk.

619

And it holds you accountable.

620

Like you know, you're going to

do something and say, well, you

621

know, if I purchase that item for

my booth, because it's going to

622

make my booth display look better,

623

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

624

Carol Greenwood: but it's

something that I don't really need.

625

You know, it takes you

through that process.

626

So it's holding you accountable

all the time, whether it's, you

627

know, you're exhibiting in a booth,

you're doing a conference, you're

628

signing a partnership agreement.

629

I think for us, by doing that and then

sharing that knowledge, that's allowing

630

us to, as I say, be accountable and also,

you know, recognizing that sometimes we

631

also make mistakes, but it's okay to make

mistakes and you gotta learn from it.

632

I think ultimately it

makes you feel better too.

633

Karen Peacock: Yeah.

634

Carol Greenwood: Gives you some

pride in the organization that

635

we're doing what we need to help

support the industry be better.

636

Karen Peacock: So great.

637

And proud of yourself personally too.

638

Yeah.

639

Any advice you would like to share with

our tourism businesses in Northern Ontario

640

or our industry organizations if they

are interested in becoming certified?

641

Carol Greenwood: Yeah.

642

If they're interested in becoming

certified, I would say the very first

643

thing you should do is take the Pledge.

644

This, you know, that's

available on our website.

645

I know it's on your website.

646

By doing that, 'cause as I

said, that's complimentary.

647

It's just showing, it's

taking that action.

648

But the other thing about it is

you don't have to take big steps.

649

I remember hearing from one of our

industry colleagues, he said, you

650

just have to change the narrative.

651

Karen Peacock: Hmm.

652

Carol Greenwood: And if you're

interested in doing something,

653

people are resisting it.

654

Change the narrative.

655

And I said, explain that to me.

656

And he said he wanted to do

something in his business and the

657

quote to do it cost significantly

more than what they had anticipated.

658

So he had the approval from his board

to do something, but at a certain

659

price, when it became significantly

more, they no longer had the

660

approval, even though they thought

it was a good idea to move forward.

661

So he changed the narrative.

662

He said, okay, well we're

gonna do it over three years.

663

Not do it all this year so that

it doesn't change our bottom line.

664

We're still able to budget

accordingly for it, takes a little

665

longer, but we're moving forward.

666

And so obviously that was a very big

project that he was doing, but he said it

667

could be something as small and simple.

668

So what's the resistance?

669

Change the narrative so

the resistance isn't there.

670

If it's something you wanna do,

take small steps, move forward,

671

be curious, ask questions.

672

No question there's somebody

out there that's already done

673

it and we can learn from them.

674

Karen Peacock: Awesome.

675

I love that.

676

Carol, this has been a great conversation

and I think our audience is really going

677

to enjoy this conversation as well.

678

Any final thoughts?

679

I've asked you a number of questions

and is there something that you'd

680

like to share that I didn't ask you

about but you'd like to talk about?

681

Carol Greenwood: I'll just say that right

now, it's a little bit of a crazy time

682

in the news cycle and in the world, and

people are making different choices.

683

Karen Peacock: Mm-hmm.

684

Carol Greenwood: But there's also

some great things that are happening.

685

And so I would just say to look

at how you can make a difference.

686

You know, sort of cut out the

noise and even just small steps.

687

If we all do them, they make big impacts.

688

And so, move forward at the

pace that you need to and ask

689

questions, and if we continue to

do that, things will get better.

690

Karen Peacock: Good thoughts.

691

Okay.

692

Thank you so much, Carol.

693

I really appreciate it.

694

Carol Greenwood: Thanks, Karen.

695

Karen Peacock: Next time on Let's

talk Northern Ontario Tourism, I

696

talk to the president of Black Sheep

Mountain Bike Club, Dave Valenti,

697

about the economic impact and

growing potential of bike tourism.

698

Follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcast

to make sure you don't miss it.

699

Let's Talk Northern Ontario Tourism is an

initiative of Tourism Excellence North and

700

recorded on the traditional territories

of the Anishinaabek and the Mushkegowuk.

701

It is produced by Storied Places

Media with support from Erica Richard,

702

Naza Obasi, and Gillian McCullough.

703

I'm Karen Peacock.

704

Thanks for listening.