Pastor Will Rose sits down with Dan Koch, a talented musician, podcaster, and licensed therapist, to explore the intricate connections between music, identity, and spirituality. Koch shares his insights on how music shapes community and personal identity, particularly for those navigating the complexities of faith and culture. They delve into the impact of punk rock and other genres on their lives, discussing how music can serve as a powerful vehicle for self-discovery and connection. The conversation also touches on the role of music in fostering empathy and understanding within diverse communities, especially in the context of evolving social norms. With a blend of personal anecdotes and thoughtful analysis, this episode invites listeners to reflect on the profound ways that music resonates with our shared human experience.

A compelling discussion unfolds as Will Rose interviews Dan Koch at Theology Beer Camp, where the complexities of music, spirituality, and psychology intertwine. Koch's journey from being a musician in Sherwood to becoming a licensed therapist reveals the pivotal role that music has played in his life and the lives of others. The conversation delves into how music serves as a communal experience that shapes identities and fosters connections among individuals. Koch shares his insights on the punk rock scene, illustrating how it provided a platform for self-expression and exploration during his formative years. This backdrop sets the stage for a deeper exploration of how music can facilitate discussions around faith, mental health, and community engagement.

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Throughout the episode, Koch and Rose examine the nuances of authenticity in artistic endeavors, particularly in the context of the pressures faced by musicians to conform to mainstream expectations. Koch reflects on the importance of creating space for diverse voices within music, emphasizing the need for inclusivity and understanding in both artistic expression and therapeutic practices. Their dialogue encourages listeners to consider how their musical preferences not only resonate with their personal experiences but also reflect broader societal themes and issues, including identity politics and social justice.

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As they explore the intersection of music and mental health, Koch offers valuable insights into how tunes and lyrics can act as catalysts for healing and self-discovery. The episode serves as an invitation to listeners to engage with music on a deeper level, recognizing its potential to foster empathy, connection, and growth. Ultimately, this rich conversation celebrates the transformative power of music while encouraging individuals to embrace their unique journeys and the soundtracks that accompany them.

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Takeaways:

• Music plays a crucial role in shaping identity and community, especially during adolescence.
• Dan Koch shares how his journey through music led him to become a therapist.
• The importance of having queer representation in music and the impact on acceptance.
• Listening to music can deepen our understanding of others' experiences and perspectives.
• Koch emphasizes the power of friendship in changing minds about social issues.
• The podcast explores the intersection of spirituality, psychology, and the music industry.

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Some of the music mentioned in this episode:

• Misfits
• Nada Surf
• Sherwood
• Relient K
• Disney Music
• Greta Van Fleet
• Passenger
• Remi Wolf
• The Velveteers
• Flamy Grant

Mentioned in this episode:

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Foreign.

Okay, coming at you. We're recording. Ray, Dan, ready to go. All right.

Whether it's Christian worship, Taylor Swift, twenty one Pilots, or Far side Beck, or Remy Wolf, we're here to discuss the music we love and enjoy.

Welcome to another episode of Some Joyful Noises, a member of the Anazzow Network, and I'm here with Joshua Noel, the founder and brainchild of Some Joyful Noises. I'm Will Rose, one of the hosts of Systematic Ecology, occasionally on Some Joyful Noises and some other podcasts in the Annazow Network.

And we're here with a special guest, someone that I've put a lot of hours in my earbuds and glad that we've gotten to know through Tripp and through Theology Beer Camp, because we're coming to you live from the Allerge Beer Camp. Dan Coke. Dan, how are you doing, man? How you feeling today on day two.

Of the camp, Live and direct. Yes, I'm feeling good.

First night I got awful, awful sleep, but I sort of powered through the first, you know, half a day and night, second half of the day, whatever of what we got going. And today, last night I got really good sleep. So today I'm like cooking with gas.

Nice.

Had a really fun session. That'll be on. Do you have permission feed at some point. And I'm just hanging. I'm hanging for the rest of the night, ready to talk tunes.

We're talking tunes. And I. Yeah. Dan is the host of. You have. You're talking to. Which is another good name for a podcast, but we can integrate it. That one works.

But.

But Dan. Yeah, Good Vibrations. Very good.

I'm feeling some good music podcast called Pretty Good Vibrations that's probably a bit more relevant here.

And. And that's kind of. And it's part of. Part of why Dana's here. I. I'll share that. Like, I have a lot of hours listening.

You have permission, and I have his intro to. You have permission that you don't do much anymore. You different, right? Like the original. The original intro.

Yeah, the long, long one.

Yeah, the long one. I would.

I would occasionally play for my confirmation class just to kind of share the kind of posture we have to faith, which is you have permission to take the modern world and Christian faith seriously. You can ask good questions. We hope not to give terrible answers. And on a youth retreat, we. We usually show like, you know, a movie of some sort.

Maybe there's some religious themes in it. We have them tease it out and talk about it. And. And yeah, Braveheart that was my Star wars. Definitely.

My. In the 90s in American youth groups with the boys. It was Braveheart season. My dudes.

Remember the Titans? No, no, no, no.

We would.

Okay.

But it was. But somehow William Wallace got us to the gospel. I don't know how we got there. Yeah.

Sacrifice, Freedom. The screaming of freedom.

This was wild at heart.

Yeah.

Era sacred romance. Era Erwin McManus's early career. Barbarian way, man. Well, I try not to throw up in my mouth.

I. So we. I played the intro to. To your podcast way at the beginning of the retreat. We went all day, by the way.

That's very sweet. I appreciate it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And we went. We went all day. Then the next day we showed the movie.

And then in the movie, there was a particular religious leader pastor who was being a dick and who was not doing good things to. And at the end of the movie, I was like, what? What was going on here? And Canon screamed out. He gave bad answers to good questions.

And I went, yes, Canon, you're paying attention. I'm so proud of you. Training, which is training material. So it's curriculum. Curriculum. But we are.

Yeah, yeah.

Shared language. And then we go, oh, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. That's one thing that I. Attempting to do to provide for people.

Yeah, yeah. And you do a good job. And I look up to that a lot.

So you said earlier that I was the brainchild. That's only, like, partially true.

Okay.

This one.

Okay.

I. As you know, because it's also sort of what happened with sg.

Some people may not know what he.

Calls okay on the zombie podcast network, but I get this thing where, like, I really want something to exist.

And.

And sometimes I just get aggravated enough that I make it exist.

That's right. You manifest it.

What happened was like, Brandon Knight, also been a part of, like, some Joeyful Noises, occasionally has some really great ideas for, like, music podcasts he wants to do. And I'm like, okay, yeah, you're on the network. Just. Just create the show. He's like, I might one day. And he said that for, like, about a year.

I love you, Brandon, and I understand your life is busy and I'm not trying to peer pressure you. But then Matthew Winter had some ideas and I'm like, okay, cool, so let's make it like, why don't we have a music podcast already?

And then eventually I was just like, you know what? We're just going to create a show with, like, no format schedule or anything.

And whenever you guys Want to like do those shows you're doing, just like make an episode and we'll just throw it on this so that.

So it's a show that has no rhyme reason was it no rhyme, no rhythm, no reason.

I mean this podcast with no rhyme for them and no reason.

That's it. That's the tagline. Anybody can. No host, no schedule, just hop on. And so we're.

We're at the Alice Beer camp where there's the intersection of theology, philosophy, the things we geek out on. Music, a part of a community, a lot of the deconstructing community.

People who, who don't feel welcomed in a church or part of a church but still resonate with the big questions around faith, around science, around the modern world.

Trip has created community where, where they can gather not just in the earbuds and listen to people talk deep stuff and big questions, but also come together and, and share time with each other. And so that's what we're. We're here doing.

And part of this podcast, some dwarf noises is acknowledging that music creates community, shapes community, it shapes identity. And so that's why we have Dan here who is getting. You're close.

Become a psychologist about a year from now. I should be a licensed psychologist.

Yeah, licensed psychologist.

Final year of internship and then study.

And take a test and was a professional musician. Still part of your vacation is creating music content for others and those kind of things.

So you a tiny bit of that still. But mostly it's worth. Mostly that's over. But yeah, I was toured in a band called Sherwood for eight years.

I did a project called Pacific Gold, originally Wayfarer and that was like rewritten hymns. And if you think that you'd really like that then you might really like it.

From my perspective it was like a half successful experiment and a half failed experiment. It. Some things about it bug me but I do know a lot of people who really like those records. So I won't on my own.

Right.

And the last thing I did was a sampling based instrumental kind of like chill dance record under the moniker Swim Club.

I did like that. That was good you let you shared that with folks here for all your.

Patreons and that fits for me in like studying music. Like I have a playlist of instrumental but has some.

I just had an idea nice vibes and.

And stuff, you know, so maybe there's.

Something on that record that I could use as an intro music to my podcast I'm gonna do.

Really? Welcome to.

Okay.

I would love that.

All right, I'm gonna listen. So. So my ideas.

I'm gonna have a podcast called we're gonna laugh about this later about sharing stories that weren't funny at the time, but later on we look back and laugh on it. And. And. And yeah, we all have them. Well, that's very. Like my bear encounter this summer. It was terrifying, but now I look back and laugh at it.

Let's not become.

We're going to laugh about this later.

Episode I want to podcast called yes, Regrets.

Huh. Okay.

What Then he just. Everybody come tell their worst regret and maybe people will, like, laugh some.

Some schadenfreude and then also learn a little bit and maybe not make.

That's the idea of we're gonna laugh.

There's a functional problem with mine, which is people generally don't want to talk about that.

Yeah. I wanted to be trying to figure.

Out what mine is now.

That's a good question.

Well, we're gonna laugh about this later is. I think, you know, I'll probably have church members listen to it, so it'll be PG13. So I don't like them, their air, their dirty laundry.

But we all have those stories. Like, yeah. At the time, not funny, but we're allowed. So anyway, we're gonna talk. We're gonna have some theme. Sean.

Cool.

Yeah. And so part of this also to talk about music community and your experience with that.

Oh, I forgot to say there was a commercial composer. That's what you were.

Commercial composer for about 10 years.

12 years.

Which is cool.

WR. Primarily used in advertisements, couple documentaries, like, you know, indie films and stuff, but mostly ads. And that's.

And then that I worked my way through grad school now to become a psychologist doing that.

So talking about music now, is there something that you're geeking out on with music or in your earbuds or something right now? Something you're like, I'm really hyped about this particular band.

Here's the problem.

Yeah.

Is it's not a good fit. Maybe for your listening audience. I don't know. I. I would be curious to hear. Okay. But if you think I'm right, we can. We don't have to linger here.

Okay.

Yeah.

But the band that I am just having a little mania over, Even the Misfits.

Ah, sweet.

Yeah.

Yeah. I grew up skating and surfing. Yes. Yeah, I know. The Misfits. Well, but.

So I didn't. I didn't absorb that band when I was getting into old punk. So when I was in high school, I got into punk after I was into Scott.

And in that era, that's like Green Day, Rancid, no Effects, like MXPX and the Christian Scene, Slick Shoes. But a lot of those bands were really good at pointing back to the earlier bands.

Yeah, and I had a band. And I had a. I had two bands in college that were Ramones themed. We had a silly band, like a humor, like, joke songs called the Romes.

We had a song Lord of the Gnome, Weird Alib, Fellowship of the Gnome, and. And, like. And then we had a cover band that we did only one practice, but it were actual Ramones cover band, which led to Sherwood.

Anyway, so ask a story that I. But I missed the Misfits because I didn't have, like. I didn't grow up watching John Carpenter films, like horror, like, B movies.

We didn't.

We weren't like a big Halloween house, you know, you were a little bit afraid of that stuff as well. And so probably in that, at that age, I thought that that stuff was, like, quite real and probably quite literal.

And then I just kind of missed it for a while. And the recording quality on Misfits Records is. I actually kind of love it, but it's not.

It's not, like, raw, big and clear and pleasing when you first hear it.

And so even it's recording this punk human hell, they recorded it.

And honestly, it's a lot like Velvet Underground recording techniques and. And dancing was into Velvet Underground. And so it's actually really more. It's so fascinating. I could geek out on it a.

Lot, but, like, yeah, it was fun.

So I'm just, like, neck deep in Misfits mania. Right now and cool. Having so much fun and like starting to worry a little bit about how long it's going on.

It's funny because there are some there you. You catch ear or you're turned on to a band you. You knew about or adjacent to and then you, you really start listening to it a lot.

You get it and then you're like, okay, I'm burned out. But then you come back to. Or whatever. Like music has that way of either sticking with you for long term or you just have those phases and things.

For me, I, I like it that Instagram now you can put music to post and those kind of things. And so I follow a lot of, you know, surfers surfing, that kind of stuff.

And so when, when these surfers self promote and put their clips on Instagram of whatever session they had, they'll put a, a song to it and just.

Like a rad old surf video.

Like a rad old surf video. Like, I used to love those surf videos or surf movies that come out with a soundtrack.

Oh yeah, yeah.

But now they like curate their own content through Instagram. There's different videos and stuff there. But I overheard somebody posted and they used far side, the 90s rap band, as one of theirs.

And I've been going a deep dive into Far side and I even went to charge. I want, I want this as my intro music. He's like, you probably can't conversion. You probably have to pay a lot for that.

I'm like, okay, or just do it and see if they catch me. But that's. That's from Too A Joshua. What about you? What's like something that doesn't need your buzz right now.

A little strange. I talked about this on, on another episode of the show, actually.

But this band I really like, the Velveteers, that I met them for, I was introduced to them when I went to a Greater Van Fleet concert. They were the opener. I was kind of drugged out for my wife. I don't care about where to go.

There's like two or three on the trip.

A lot of the stuff I'm like, I don't.

This.

I don't get the hype, but like some. There's a few like Broken Bells I listen to at least once a week. I think that's a fantastic song.

Okay, but the thing with the Velvet Tears, I loved them. I was obsessed. But they have like 12 songs. Like I'm exaggerating, but they like very few songs so far. They're like.

Because they're a newer band, so like So I really burned myself on them quick. But a couple of weeks ago, they released a new song, and I've been kind of listening to that on repeat, and I'm going to burn myself out again.

But, yeah, I'm digging it.

Cool.

Yeah, cool. They're like an indie rock band, but the new song, they kind of, like, decided that they were just going to fuse some.

Some funk in there and, like, this is.

This is great. Sweet.

Dan, you. You share a little bit of kind of, like, as a kid in your upbringing and kind of the evangelical conservative.

Yeah.

But in terms of what led you, it was there a particular band when you were younger that you connected to that turned you on to becoming musician or to a band that led you to Sheerwood? Like, was there something that you remember as a kid that you're like, I like this music. I want to do this.

I want music to be part of my life, a vocation.

Yeah. I mean, it would be punk. And. And I'm not the first person to say this, like, in.

In any number of, like, the myriad documentaries you can watch about, you know, Britain or. Or California or whatever in those early years, but punk was the clearest.

It was the most accessible form of music for the least amount of musical talent. You had to have a guy who could play the drums pretty fast, and then you could turn the distortion up and basically fake it till you make it.

Yeah, yeah.

Everywhere else, you know, and that if you go. If you get too good, like, you actually do lose something with genres like that. And so I was 14 when I joined my first punk band. And I.

What was the name of that band?

It was called Permanent Holiday.

Nice.

Yeah. And.

And so I had been playing drums for maybe two years or something, maybe three years, and I was good enough to be in a local band and be a drummer. And then in. I got kicked out of that bed because I didn't load the gear often enough. It's so funny.

Good teenager.

And then.

Yeah, it's a real character flaw, but, yeah, and then I was in a band with my friends that they started, and I joined pretty early and sort of became the singer, songwriter, and, you know, kind of colonized the thing that they had started, but we were called Ignorant Youth. And I do think it's, you know. So it wouldn't have been any one band in particular, I don't think. I think it was a number of those bands.

And I think what happened is it's a developmental timing. So I understand music pretty mathematically, and I write music pretty mathematically.

And I think that there was a sort of level of math that I developmentally got to. And then I was able to write songs, so I was able to apply the math. My own. My own. And it was super derivative.

And of course, like, I'm actually just imbibing these chord progressions and these melodies, and I'm just very slightly changing them and whatever. At the beginning, you're doing a lot of mimicking. But punk was a very smooth ramp because it was like, well, I mean, he's turning this distortion up.

It's like power chords could literally learn how to do it in a couple days.

And most people come to those shows, they're just kind of like, cool, go loud, go punk. They're not listening to the nuance in the music.

Especially at a local show. Yeah, it's really about like, hey, can we, like, jump around and, like, you know, can we get some of this energy?

Marsh pit?

Yeah, yeah. In like, a positive way. And. Yeah, and so. And I love that about punk, and I think that's why that was first.

Nice.

It's kind of as designed.

And I guess the progression of, like, bands like you. You start a band because you like a particular genre or band, and you kind of mimic that, and there comes a point when you become your own.

But then when did the song writing creativity, with that process of your creative process of writing music, Wouldn't you know, this is something like I'm good at and I can make a living of this. I'm going to do this. I'm going to tour, I'm going to. We're going to write songs, create songs.

It's one thing that I can listen to this song, say, I like this, but then. Or I can learn how to play this particular song. I like is another to like, I'm going to write my own. What?

Yeah. So just for context, because most people probably don't know who Sherwood was, who.

Are listening, but, yeah, yeah, we got.

Like, and when you came to Chapel Hill, you're like, I think I've been here. Did I play? And I was like, did you play Cat's Cradle and Carbon? You're like, yeah, I play Cat's Cradle, Very famous place in North Carolina.

Play Small shit Cat's Cradle.

And it was.

We did it.

Like, the best way to say it, it was our Full time job, but we didn't save any money. You didn't have to have other jobs, but we literally left the band with no savings. And so that's, that's kind of what I'm referring to.

And I didn't, I had no notion that I could be good enough to do that. But our singer Nate, he basically convinced me, he was like, we can do this. You are a good enough songwriter and I'm a good enough singer.

And you were drums out there.

And at that point, I was playing drums at the beginning and I was like, okay. And he, he was not a good enough singer yet. I was not a good enough songwriter yet. So he's wrong about that. Yeah, but he must.

I don't even think he saw potential in me. I think he just wanted to be in a band and I was his friend and I was. And I was willing to try with him and I think that that's perfectly fine.

Yeah, that's how. I think that's the real reason.

Yeah.

So I didn't know and so I didn't really find out until it got. And we had a very slow, gradual rise to that mid level point. So we did. We never had anything sort of overnight.

It was like we, we printed our own EP and sold about 7,000 of them. And then we had a one album deal. They sold about 15,000.

Age of the CD. 12.

Yeah, CDs. Yeah, almost all CDs. And then at that point it was only CDs. And then we put another one out and that sold like 40 and you know, like it.

So it was like there wasn't like a big change.

Right.

So I guess I figured I was pretty good. I actually, you know, the probably truth is I probably thought I was better than I was for a while.

For young adults sounds, you know, in a band. Yeah.

But you know, people, you get those first local like friends who actually seem to really like the songs and are not just doing it because you're their friend. And that's like the first inkling of.

Maybe, okay, maybe we got something here.

And then I think there was like a, a kid I'd gone to high school with who's a couple years younger who was like, hey, you know, I got a copy of that EP you guys did. And I really like this song. And you know, it was only that song that was any good, but like, but that was. But that's enough if you get you one.

And there was something good in there and I think we refined it later but like you get that those Little bits. And I think I'm egotistical enough and narcissistic enough that I didn't need a lot of that.

Right.

So I latched onto it, probably, and then it turned out that I was good enough to do it at a pretty decent level, but not good enough to do it at, like, a true success level. And I genuinely think that. I think. I think I'm not that good of a songwriter. I think I'm a pretty good songwriter.

Being a songwriter, playing a band, does that shift how you listen to music? Now you listen because, like, as a preacher, I'll go, I feel like I'm the same preacher, but I'm not going to, let's hear somebody preach.

I'm listening a different way than, like, other. I'm like, why don't they make this movie when I do this? Now, when you listen to music, you listen to misfits.

When you're big, huge Beach Boys fan, but, like, you do, you listen to other music, you're like, yeah, I don't. I don't know what they did there. What. That was a choice or that was not a choice, or.

Yeah, it's exactly the same.

Yeah.

And. But I think music is a more. It's more of an aesthetic experience than listening to a sermon.

Right, Right.

So I. I would imagine that the sermon thing is analogous to, like, an author. When they're reading other people's books.

So they know how a book is put together.

Structured.

Yeah, structured.

The point they're trying to make.

So they know they see a lot more in it than I see because I've never written a book. So there's definitely that. Mostly, I think that that just heightens appreciation. I think there are.

With a few exceptions, there are some mixes where I'm like, I know how easy it would have been to fix this problem. Why is there.

As a podcast editor, you realize, dude, why is that?

It's so much high end on the high hat. Like, it's distorting, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Interesting things like that. So occasionally there are things that it's, like, really hard to listen to because it seems so avoidable.

But mostly I would say it's like, oh, I love how they did that, you know, or something like that.

That's. That's cool. We follow up there. I know where I want to go next, but let me think there. That sparked something for you, Joshua.

I don't think you want to know what my brain went through.

Okay. There you go now. Sure.

Anyway.

Okay.

He mentioned that there was, like, he Said there was once all that was any good in my brain just goes, yeah, that one episode of Phineas and Ferb. And then my brain for a little bit just was like, get you, get you goo means that I love you.

Yeah.

That is not. That is not the vibe right now.

I should stop. Well, where there's. Where there's album or.

Yeah, there's tv, there's like shows you watch and there's like your favorite episode of the season, but you still like the whole show. And there's definitely artists that you get their album. You're like, man, I'm disappointed because there's only really two songs I vibe with.

But like I'm a big fan of Elbow. Like they're. They put their, their music together and I love what they do. But then the last couple albums I like there's two songs.

I really love the rest. I'm like, I kind of all sounds the same. I'm like, what? What's going on?

I love Smash Mouth. And by that I mean those three songs are great.

One of my.

I have whole bands like that. I think it's fine. Breakfast at Tiffany's by Deep Blue something. I don't know any other Deep Blue something. That's fine.

My idea is I think there should be a one Hit Wonder tour where you have 20 bands and they all come out and play their one Hit Wonder sounds like very economically. And then they just show up.

No problem.

I think we could pull it off. Let's try it. So. So moving to like your, Your new mood vocation of like psychology and thinking about music. And we talked about this.

This podcast is in worship. There's a reason that hymns are spiritual technologies that we gather around communicating that we articulate our faith through it.

Yeah.

How do you see like the concert experience, the music experience, the gathering experience. How did music is a broad question. We could talk all night about this, but in terms of how do you see music shaping community?

And then as a psychologist, how do you see music helping people shape identity, identity politics, who they connect with, all the, all those things. I think, I think that's big. What music. Someone was like, oh, like that band. Like music. Like to jam out. I like to get, you know, like to dance.

But then there's. There's. It creates culture, it creates music.

Is. Is also connected to a style, like a fashion style and an aesthetic and to. Depending on the genre.

There's sort of, you know, more or less extreme of that. Like most. I would guess most like a lot of metal, real metal fans you know, they wear black and they have a. Not.

I don't mean they're like goth walking through the mall, their hair. But I can tell when I meet dudes that I'm like, it's a metal dude that long. Yeah, that's. And. And you.

You know, and then you could obviously marry like gutter punks and like, you know, there's like the sort of. Almost the clown version of it.

Right.

Or like ICP fans or whatever, you know, but there is something associated, you know, you associate top 40 with like, kind of high fashion and kind of, what's it. The prevailing looks of the day, country music. You know, you've got your cowboy boots and. And hats. You have different.

You know, so that is actually, I think as a training psychologist, I think that that's actually a big part of what is so powerful about music in those particular developmental years when we are defining our own identity among options. And that's generally thought of as adolescence.

Yeah, yeah.

And so there's something going on there because it. I. I think that what drew me to punk was. Was not only musical, you know, it's. It was aesthetic too. I think I liked it. I. You mentioned surf videos.

I think a lot about surf and skate videos from the 90s.

Yeah.

And like, you pop in that VHS or later a DVD and like, and it's, you know, it's a good riddance track and no effects track. And then. Whoa, who is that? Oh, that's the Clamps. Like, who are they? And. And like you discover, like, think about that.

The act of sitting around with my buddies watching a skate video, that's not a identity neutral activity. It's all being. The music is coming in and confirming. It's like.

It's like a brace, you know, it's like coming around and supporting the other identity formation that's already happening around visuals around. Maybe my buddy skateboards and I'd be AMX bike. We like that activity. So we're sharing activities. We use the lingo of this subculture now.

We have shared language. Yeah. You know, so I'm figuring out who I am or whatever, and then the music is like baptizing me into that broader.

Those broader sets of cultural things. And I think that's why music. Maybe that I'm. Now I'm riffing.

But I think that maybe why music is so powerful is that it actually just goes so deep for people. There are maybe some people that it is mostly window dressing, but a lot of people go a lot deeper with music than that.

And you Know, I don't know what the numbers are, but I would believe it's more people than, like, for instance, really like to read novels or even really love movies. I bet you there's more people who really love a particular kind of music.

I. At risk of having myself psychoanalyzed, I won't really.

What's really interesting, though, you're bringing that up, and I'm, like, flipping through my own experiences. And so I was growing in a household where, like, Until I was 18, the limits of my music was Christian and Disney.

And I am not a rebellious person by nature. So, like, like, the one outlet, like, I had, my aunt would play the.

Shrek soundtrack for me.

So I heard Smash.

Yeah.

But, like, I think it's so interesting, like, because now I'm, like, analyzing myself. Like, is that why I love Disney so much? Is it, like, that's the only mute? Because I didn't like Christian, the only thing I was allowed to listen to.

You listen to the Hercules soundtrack still? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, one thing about that is the quality differential, because. Yeah. You know, and Disney, actually. I mean, my first thought is, oh, a Disney song is like, a thing. But when I think about it.

Well, actually, a lot of Disney films, like, set in different times and places with sort of different scores and soundtracks. Yeah, we. You know that maybe the Aladdin and Lion King songs by the mid-90s are okay.

There's, like, a famous duet, then they go for the Grammys, and they, like, they had. They had come to that. Did come to that format by then. Well, you got the Robin Hood soundtrack, which is. Which is gold to me.

I definitely do Whistle Stop around my house at least once.

I did. I used to sing it. I used to whistle it to our firstborn all the time and play ukulele. I wonder if it's like, the old.

Most of Christian stuff is worse. And so Disney.

But Disney, depending on whatever genre Disney's doing, they're gonna do their version of it, but it's going to be done at an extremely high level. They are going to hire Gershwin because they fucking can. You know, like, they're going to.

They're going to get hammers, you know, Bernstein and whatever. I don't know about a big musical. Sky. Yeah. So, like, the best in the biz. Yeah, yeah. I didn't.

The other side and I'm sorry.

No, no. This is interesting.

Like, it's so interesting because, like, I was thinking about that, and then the.

Other part was so Rogers and Hammerstein. Okay, sorry.

Got it. Sorry. He did not look that up. It came to his head. He did not look on his phone. I watched it happen. Is that live action? Live action?

No, but, like, so.

So when I'm.

I'm still, like, learning songs I should know and, like, regular references.

You're filling in gaps, like, regular references.

People are making, and I just, like, shake my head, and they're, like, referencing, like, you too, and I'm like, that is a letter and a number.

Uhhuh.

Yeah.

I grew up with you too.

I love.

Now I'm psychoanalyzing. You go. That's why. That explains a lot, Josh.

But listen, time, like, the stuff that gravity, I guess, like, with the. Like, the clothing and stuff must match, because I'm recalling the time, like, early when I met my wife. Like, the first drive we did.

She just straight up goes, you know, you look like someone who listens to Passenger. And, like, I've wondered a long time.

What that meant without. Without ass. Without, like, anyone telling you. Now, that could have just been chance. Yeah, but.

Or you could have tacitly picked it up and sort of recognized a trend of other people who are affiliated with this thing and then go, I like that. I. That sounds like that looked good.

Yeah, I think it could be.

And I've just.

I've been doing a lot of thinking through what makes Passenger different from other folk music. His stuff is a lot more philosophical. Like, a lot of folk music is like, you're angsty. Oh, I'm sad about. By whoever you lost.

And, like, real life stuff, and I love that stuff too. But, like, his stuff is usually you get stuff like, you know, you never know you love her till you let her go.

You get life for the living, so you might as well live it, or you're better off dead. Like, you get these, like, really philosophical ideas.

He's very much an existentialist, and I think what it was is, like, when I'm 18, was also the first time I've ever introduced other religions. I started taking philosophy classes. And then here's the one who's speaking philosophy.

He's given language.

This is good.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I like, because I. My. My kids are in college, and so my oldest, 22, Hannah, is huge music buff, loves music.

And she's at age now where I'm super proud, because she's like, dad, I think you like this. Oh, I'm listening to this. Have you heard this? I think you would like it. So she knows my style. And I'm like, I'm so proud of you. You know me.

But also, you have good taste in music. I feel like I was a good parent. Like, they. There's things.

But she also has this ownership thing that if other people start liking something that she like versus, like, she gets like, no, no, that's my band. That can't be your band. You know what? She. She loves Gray Van Fleet now. And I. And I was like, oh, I saw that with Trip.

And she was like, you saw them in concert? What do you mean? And you didn't tell me? Like, no, I thought this is my band. Like, wait a minute. Why, why. Why is this.

So there's also this kind of psychological of ownership. This is me. This is my identity. This is what is happening. And you know, do I want to invite you to be a part of that part of my me or not?

And so her inviting me, like Remy Wolf, she's like, dad, this is my new favorite artist. I really think you like her. And so some of those songs have been jamming out really hard. I'm like, you're. I think you're right.

This is really good music. And yeah, she's got enough, you know. Do you know Roomy?

Well, I do. I. I was telling you last night, I love I Don't remember hello, hello and the song Liz and yeah, I did. I dig her.

I think I like the sing the earlier singles more than I liked the record when I heard first full length. But she's incredibly talented.

Incredibly. Yeah. And you know, I'm a back fan too. So if you can mix, get your kind of funk on and in.

In bass line, but then do like switch up and do like a string. Your head was a string composer, so it's like bust out really methodic strings and cello. You got me. You got me. Yeah, yeah. And I.

I think that's important as we. As we share joyful noises and to talk about music, go a little deeper.

It is important you understand how it can hit our identity, but also the communities we are a part of and those kind of things too. So it has been interesting to see, you know, here at the Alice Beer Camp.

Tripp, you know, he's a theater kid, preacher's kid, but also loves karaoke, loves getting up there, youth pastor at heart.

But that music, like, you're inviting people to sing karaoke with you, but then you also have a music artist sing for you, and they're having these music Breaks the band between these. They're trying to mix up all the senses with that kind of stuff. It's just part of who we are and what we're doing.

So even the people who are playing, like, I think he was really intentional with, like, the identity process because you have, like, Kevin Max, who's gone through, like, the deconstruction. So the deconstructionists are out, Right. And then today we have IG King and Flamey Grant.

So you have that, like, the queer community and that, like, identity point there, too. So I think that intentionality was really.

Yep.

Trip is so smart.

It is cool. Well, thanks, Dan. I think there's one question here.

Question. Go for it. Around the identity stuff, because we're talking about how, like, a lot of times it's.

We find the songs that we're already kind of identifying with those groups. But I think sometimes you see those songs that break through. So specifically, I'm thinking of, like, better Love than the song that's literally just.

It's the numbers for the Suicide Hotline. And both of those got really popular.

And I watched people who were, like, evangelical adjacent squirm because you have these songs that are, like, really clearly making some strong cases for not being dicks to the queer community. And it's like this song, but I. You know, so they're still playing it, but I feel like it kind of broke some barriers there. Like.

Yeah, I think media plays a part.

I mean, there is, like, a theory in sociology that, like, Will and Grace is, like, a big reason that, you know, more gay marriage reform and stuff was able to get, like, more popular support.

People talk about, you know, portrayals of certain characters, like the movie Philadelphia also, like, possibly playing a pretty big role in, like, acceptance around HIV and homosexuality and all that stuff where Denzel Washington, like, plays the character who has some stuff to learn about that. And we identify with Denzel Washington. We like him a lot, you know, and so, like, having movie stars kind of do that.

I think all that stuff really does have an effect. I think the strongest effect, though, when people change their mind about things like queer affirmation or whatever is. Is friendships.

And ultimately, like, the thing I hear more than anything else was, I have these queer friends. You just. You cannot tell me that they are any less loving or, you know, that.

I just cannot see for the life of me how they're anyway, less than in, like, God's eyes, because I know them. They are my close friends. And I think that I trust more.

I trust them.

Trust. I trust Them more than you person that I have this conversation with, I think that's implied. And, and it's like yeah, so.

But, but I do, I do think media, including music plays a role. Okay.

And there's an edge. You go swinging it back around to punk. Like there's a way of like push the edge, push the envelope. You're gonna break boundaries.

Like there' going to, we're going to be edgy. So there's that, that the lingo around. Like oh, they sold out because they went mainstream. Or what about like the deep cuts and pushing the edges?

So yeah. How do you make change how you shape community? Do you want to make money in a living?

Do you want to sell out because you want to be, you know, sell arenas or you going to still punk.

Stuff like is really childish and immature and I don't, I don't vibe with it anymore at all. I probably vibe with all of it when I was 15, didn't discriminate.

But now some of it is like, you know, the more like boots on the ground sociopolitics of like advocating for the poor and stuff like that.

I think that stuff always really resonated and still does in the way that some of the, you know, anti system stuff now to be just sounds like teenagers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't, I don't find much meaning in it anymore.

But you know, and for me it was like 90s rap. Like whether it's, you know, Public Enemy or, or whatever. Like I as a, you know, upper class white surfer kid, like listen to 90s rap. They.

They were pushing me to think through kind of like systemic racism but not understanding it and trying to figure out what they're saying. This kind of hip hop spoken word poetry about, you know, what's going on, their communities.

And I just thought was cool because it had a good beat and you know, I'm. I won't. I wish that that song could play in my clip in my surf video. I want them to play that song when I did it.

Like what would be my song in my, in my video? And something about. But yet behind all that they have a message of trying to express what's going on, their communities and lives.

Opening a whole new culture to you that you would have had no access to. I think it's funny, we used to like kind of make fun of the white kids who were really into rap. Yeah, it was like a. You guys must be pretending or.

I think it was probably what we thought like something about it seemed fake. Seemed like a Seemed like a show. Not us punks with our mohawks. We're not putting on a show. But, like. But I. Now I. It makes a lot more sense to me.

I'm just like, oh, like, it brought, like, a life to the suburbs. Like, it's like this whole other exciting world.

Yep.

Whether or not it's, you know, real or being exaggerated or whatever, like, it's not what this life looks like, and it's this. It's like a. Not just escapism. It's a genuine incursion of another culture into this kind of sealed suburban culture.

You know, breaking down walls. Like, Walk this Way with Aerosmith and Run dmc. Literally breaking down the wall and coming together. Yeah.

I got a weird connection point with that of, like, nervous. Kind of makes me think of, like, nervous.

Okay.

No, no, I mean, like, how weird.

Yeah. How weird.

Went to Doctor who naturally.

Yeah. Okay. That tracks.

Because a lot of what the doctor does is he's just, like, traveling places. Not because he's, like, trying to save the day or do some, like, heroic mission.

He's just like, whoa, look at what people were like in Shakespearean England. This is freaking cool. You know, he's just like, let's just hang out here and see what people are like.

I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued. Yeah.

He's, like, doing this kind of stuff.

Arm. It's armchair anthropology. Armchair travel kind of a thing. Yeah.

And it's great.

And I feel like since my theology has kind of, like, been developing the last few years, and I've got to this point of, like, I don't feel like I need to, like, win souls to Christ. And instead I'm like, wow, God is in everyone. I just, like, have this, like, really passionate drive to, like, curiosity.

Curiosity. Yeah.

The airport. I'm just, like, in this random local bookstore in the airport, and I'm like, hey, this person is willing to talk to me.

What is the one book here that.

Most resonates with you? And I want to just experience it because that was.

Meant something to you.

And, like, you're someone made in the image of God. And that's so cool. And, like, I feel like I did the same thing with music. Like, even, like.

Even though might not be my favorite, like, my wife loves them. So, like, every now and then I'm like, I'm going to listen to this and, like, try to hear it, like, through her ears.

Because, like, that resonates with another person made in the image of God, like, who is also my wife, which makes it even Cooler.

But you know, yeah, I want to understand you through your music because if this is a part of you and it's important to you, then I want to understand, yeah, why is it for you? But also like, maybe I'll vibe with it, maybe I won't. But yeah, that's good. Well, let's wrap this up, Dan. All right.

On this, you put on this headline, recommend one Christian artist. One artist outside of normal Christian or pop culture. So at the end of our episodes we do recommendation well, like ecology or others.

Is there a reckon one not Christian? Is that what for Somebody's in the. In the music game and, and let's. And admires. I admire that, you know, how much you, you love music and no music.

Is there a recommendation?

It could be Christian, non Christian, but is there something that you would recommend for folks that are listening to this are like, oh, go check out this band. And it could be Christian. Could not. But if there is, you know, we're at the Ellis Beer camp.

If there's a connection to like deeper theological, philosophical questions, then why not?

I got one.

Okay.

There's a indie power pop band called Not A Sir and as in like.

S E N A D A space.

S U R F. They had a. Like, they were kind of a one hit wonder initially with a song called popular in the 90s that had this like spoken word verse.

Okay.

Very weird. But then they basically had this kind of power pop career which is like, you know, comes out of the Birds and Big Star and like it's taking.

Yeah, taking some of kind of Beatles and 60s British invasion like pop songwriting and then but like updating it with distorted guitars and. But Matthew the. The singer and songwriter of God of Surf, he. He is like, he has like a philosopher's mind and like is.

Seems to be like engaging in some kind of spirituality, certainly engaging with like deep meaning questions and is a really great poet and cool. I think that. I think there's some kind of Eastern. I get kind of an Eastern vibe sometimes. But there.

He has so many songs that touch on really deep, deeply resonating themes for me as like a. As a person, as a liberal Christian. But like from this, one of their big songs is Always Love. Hate will get you every time.

And there's other stuff about like.

There's a song that I feel like started as a compassion journal project where he was supposed to take the perspective of like an animal song called Fruit Fly.

Okay.

Where it's like, you know, he. He like takes on the perspective of a fruit fly who no longer has any, like, fruit and is running out of gas and, like, what can you do but go on?

And then, like, then it's like, well, that's obviously a human thing too. And he's just really. He's just operating at a very deep level. And he's a great pop songwriter and a great singer. So that's my recommendation.

Nice. Great recommendation.

And we'll recommend Good Vibrations, pretty Good Vibrations, where you go and walk through some music you like or listen through. There's even tournaments. There's battles, tournaments, tournaments. Gamified, but pretty fun. So it's a. You know, again, you.

You podcast different areas of your life, but that you're like, one of your ideas.

Like, I really want to do this music podcast and share with you all because if I don't tell somebody, if I is for fun, if I don't sell somebody, I gotta tell somebody because it's inside me and I gotta share it with the world. So a lot of that stuff as we go there. So, yeah. Dan, thanks. Thanks for being a part of this.

Thanks for hanging out with you and glad that we made some connections through mutual friends. And I'll keep listening to your stuff.

I know.

That's for sure. Joshua, how do you. How do you close out this? Some joyful noises. Where's your closing? I don't think it matters.

Should we make no rhyme, rhythm, or reason?

There isn't format. But you want to stay noisy, though. Is that kind of what you want to do?

We could stay noisy.

I think we could stay.

You want to keep it noisy?

Let's keep it noisy. Or stay with. Let's. Let's just stay noisy.