Have you heard about unlearning? It sounds like the opposite of what we are all about here at How To Take The Lead - learning, growth and development. But understanding what we need to unlearn as leaders is key to that growth and development.
In this episode we cover:
what we mean by the concept of unlearning
why unlearning a crucial part of our leadership journeys
how you know what you need to unlearn in order to improve
Seeking feedback and engaging others in your unlearning
As it's the last episode of this series you can also hear our highlights from series 4. Both of us particularly loved the conversation about self-leadership.
How to Take the Lead is a show exploring all things leadership.
Every episode we explore a different part of life as a leader, questioning everything we've ever learnt and sharing a few of our own stories along the way.
If you want to learn how to do leadership your own way, join hosts Lee Griffith and Carrie-Ann Wade as they debunk myths, tackle stereotypes and generally put the leadership world to rights.
Get involved
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Transcripts
Lee Griffith:
And I've got a lovely Bear Island gin and tonic
Lee Griffith:
so so put really annoying ice cubes in yes sorry char editor
Lee Griffith:
apologies
Unknown:
yeah sorry
Lee Griffith:
to complain about
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: sorry Scott I'll maybe try not to drink it
Lee Griffith:
on the way through I have a big slurp now like and then not have
Lee Griffith:
any till the end when we do a little cheers they go That's
Lee Griffith:
That's my promise sorry Scott sorry.
Lee Griffith:
Welcome to how to take the lead the podcast where
Lee Griffith:
we challenge the myths and stereotypes of what it means to
Lee Griffith:
be a leader today and help you to succeed in post without
Lee Griffith:
compromise. I'm Lee Griffith
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: and I'm Carrie-Ann Wade and together we
Lee Griffith:
will be your guides question everything we've ever learned
Lee Griffith:
about leadership sharing our experiences along the way and
Lee Griffith:
inspiring you to make a real impact in your role visit how to
Lee Griffith:
take the lead.com For show notes past episodes and
Lee Griffith:
join our community
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: enjoy this episode. Welcome listeners to
Lee Griffith:
what is oh I love the jazz hands there for those who not watching
Lee Griffith:
on YouTube Lee was doing some very fabulous jazz hands in a
Lee Griffith:
very fabulous outfit I have to say well,
Lee Griffith:
so can we just have a moment first per said
Lee Griffith:
outfit because this you might recognize that I paid a bloody
Lee Griffith:
fortune for for Karianna wedding and asked to wear suits
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: I do recognize and it looks gorgeous. And it's
Lee Griffith:
bringing back all the memories.
Lee Griffith:
I thought we were we got shortlisted for an awards
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recently.
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: Just Just lay drop that in there.
Lee Griffith:
I know. And I thought perfect I'll get another
Lee Griffith:
way and my pound per weight ratio can be reduced by wearing
Lee Griffith:
its knees out thing and then that was too trendy and I
Lee Griffith:
couldn't wear this It wasn't to say like it's it's yeah, she
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: well, because Welcome to What is the last
Lee Griffith:
episode of this series. So we've gone celebrate every like Ender
Lee Griffith:
series kind of wrap party mode where we just get dressed up.
Lee Griffith:
Let's have a little drinky poo. We haven't done that in a long
Lee Griffith:
while on how to take the lead episode so I'm quite glad that
Lee Griffith:
we've bought this celebratory drinks back and mentioned in my
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wedding another little plug for my wedding which was the last
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series of take the lead we were talking about having the wedding
Lee Griffith:
I think or just having had the wedding and this one it was last
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year how has that happened? Getting ready for the first
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wedding anniversary soon.
Lee Griffith:
I've got a lovely burger Island gin and tonic. So
Lee Griffith:
so put really annoying ice cubes in yes sorry. Editor apologies
Lee Griffith:
Yeah, sorry to complain about sorry Scott.
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: I'll maybe try not to drink it on the way
Lee Griffith:
through I have a big slap now like and then not have any till
Lee Griffith:
the end when we do a little cheers. There you go. That's
Lee Griffith:
That's my promise. Sorry, Scott. Sorry. So yes, so our last
Lee Griffith:
episode of this series of how to take the lead or the Bear Island
Lee Griffith:
vibes going on with the dress and the gin which I'm loving and
Lee Griffith:
we coordinate No, we didn't. So that's just a weird little thing
Lee Griffith:
that has happened a bit. Okay, folding into one another. Yeah,
Lee Griffith:
we did promise that something we attended recently that we do do
Lee Griffith:
stuff separately as well. We don't always come as a pair but
Lee Griffith:
you know,
Lee Griffith:
with with the modern day chanson de choco
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brothers, you name your duo. Yes.
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: And you Yeah, whatever. Do you have choice
Lee Griffith:
you'd like maybe share that on socials get in touch tell us
Lee Griffith:
which, which famous duo you'd most likeness to I'm always
Lee Griffith:
going front and deck but that's only for the photoshoot moments.
Lee Griffith:
So if you know you know, if you've been on the instinct,
Lee Griffith:
you'll know that but anyhow, we digress, we digress. That happy
Lee Griffith:
end of series five going on here. And and before I get into
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the main topic of conversation, obviously just reminding people
Lee Griffith:
that we are on all of the podcast platforms. So whichever
Lee Griffith:
is your favorite. You can listen to us there you can subscribe so
Lee Griffith:
we drop straight into your inbox when new episodes land. We are
Lee Griffith:
also on YouTube if you'd like to watch us along the way rather
Lee Griffith:
than just listen. And we are on substack so there will be an
Lee Griffith:
article with every episode as well as some in between musings,
Lee Griffith:
which will give you more exclusive content thoughts, all
Lee Griffith:
of that kind of jazz over on substack and on the socials. Do
Lee Griffith:
let us know which duo we most remind you of is going to be the
Lee Griffith:
Chuckle brothers isn't it? Over on our Instagram you can catch
Lee Griffith:
up with us there leave a comment DM so I think that's everything
Lee Griffith:
I need to share by way of starting have I forgotten
Lee Griffith:
anything they
Lee Griffith:
no no all this good. Fabulous.
Unknown:
I just feel you're very regal sat there. I feel like I
Unknown:
don't know I feel like you're Yeah, I'm loving it.
Unknown:
I'm loving this vibe. It's like a new kind of world Karianne
Unknown:
dynasty kind of
Lee Griffith:
vibe going on. But then yeah, my path and my path.
Unknown:
Sorry. Oh, slight end of term vibes here. So,
Unknown:
Carrie-Ann Wade: so we will get on with this last conversation
Unknown:
of series. And it's, I don't I don't want to say a weird one
Unknown:
because that's not really selling it to listeners. But
Unknown:
what we what we were planning to talk about is what so we're all
Unknown:
about the learning, we're all about the improving, but what we
Unknown:
wanted to talk about was what you might need to unlearn in
Unknown:
order to be a better leader. So that is the topic of
Unknown:
conversation for this final episode. And I think it's
Unknown:
potentially quite easy to get a bit set in our ways. As a
Unknown:
leader, we talk a lot about pushing outside of our comfort
Unknown:
zone, but most of us know where we feel like we operate,
Unknown:
possibly at our best, but definitely are our most
Unknown:
comfortable. And as listeners will know, we are all about
Unknown:
challenging that status quo. And we think it's really important
Unknown:
to consider what things we might need to unlearn in order to
Unknown:
better ourselves in that leadership space. So that's what
Unknown:
we're going to talk about this episode and Lee I'm gonna throw
Unknown:
it over to you like sort of pen at the ready poised to give us
Unknown:
some good content here.
Unknown:
What exactly do we over promise and
Lee Griffith:
under deliver Now come on, we're
Unknown:
going for it. We're going through what what
Unknown:
exactly do we mean by this phrase,
Unknown:
Carrie-Ann Wade: unlearn because I'm hearing it a bit more now in
Unknown:
the leadership space, but it does feel like a sort of term
Unknown:
that maybe people haven't been used to hearing so so what do we
Unknown:
mean by unlearning,
Lee Griffith:
judo? Just as an aside, you're right. I've heard
Lee Griffith:
this term a lot. And I've been reflecting on it a lot. But I
Lee Griffith:
used it for the first time about probably about nine to 10 months
Lee Griffith:
ago, and I hadn't really heard it. Well, I hadn't heard of it
Lee Griffith:
before. Because I did think I invented that word.
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: Well say straight from the horse's mouth.
Lee Griffith:
And this is going to be good response to the question,
Lee Griffith:
because I was doing some like reflection,
Lee Griffith:
coaching practice. And I was like, God feels like I've always
Lee Griffith:
got to unlearn what it is that I was taught. And I genuinely
Lee Griffith:
thought that this was a brand new word that I had created. And
Lee Griffith:
I was, you know, going back to the thought leader,
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: just sit you like, well ahead of the time.
Lee Griffith:
And then it's like, literally everywhere. And now Now I don't
Lee Griffith:
know how I feel. So I was loving the word. Now I'm feeling like,
Lee Griffith:
oh, is it just one of those corporate BS? buzzwords, and I
Lee Griffith:
don't like it. And I'm feeling really torn, because like,
Lee Griffith:
there's a pride that I invented. I was about Yes, I was about to
Lee Griffith:
say it's this level of feeling torn, because you're a bit
Lee Griffith:
disappointed that you didn't invent, invent it. So obviously
Lee Griffith:
thinking about the bias that you might have in that, but for the
Lee Griffith:
sake of this episode, we've gone with unlearn. So what do we mean
Lee Griffith:
by the term unlearn? And when you first introduced that to the
Lee Griffith:
leadership worldly? What did you mean specifically by unlearning?
Lee Griffith:
Well, I think for me, it's always been about
Lee Griffith:
giving myself permission to let go of old thinking, or actions.
Lee Griffith:
In order to make space for new stuff. And kind of referencing
Lee Griffith:
the point use you said at the beginning about, we're all about
Lee Griffith:
the learning and taking on new things, you know, our brains,
Lee Griffith:
our emotions, every will like a computer hard drive will get
Lee Griffith:
full up, we've got to let some stuff go to let the new things
Lee Griffith:
come in. Otherwise, we've got overwrite or delete, or
Lee Griffith:
something's got to happen in order for us to develop I think,
Lee Griffith:
the
Unknown:
show you did an issue. You didn't invent this, because
Unknown:
I really loved that. I was like, Yes, Lee,
Unknown:
Carrie-Ann Wade: I'm loving this whole analogy. Absolutely. For
Unknown:
me, it was about that evolution, say, you know, it might be about
Unknown:
your mindset, it might be about changing behaviors. And it
Unknown:
doesn't always mean stopping something, I don't think
Unknown:
although it absolutely might. But it is about that growth and
Unknown:
that evolution towards a new, hopefully better way of being.
Unknown:
And I was
Lee Griffith:
I was struggling a little bit with this with the
Lee Griffith:
notion of you know, you're you're letting go of old
Lee Griffith:
thinking, because I think when we say that we often think, oh,
Lee Griffith:
it's out of date and outdated. And we when we talk about
Lee Griffith:
leadership, challenges and change things you want to
Lee Griffith:
change. We talk about the old way of bleeding and we do mean
Lee Griffith:
that in the kind of outdated modes and I don't necessarily
Lee Griffith:
mean that when I say old here, because I don't really think
Lee Griffith:
that that is the case, but I think it's It's about making
Lee Griffith:
sure we don't get stuck, or we're being held back by things.
Lee Griffith:
And because that's the way we've been taught, we should do it. So
Lee Griffith:
there's a whole like neuroscience thing behind it,
Lee Griffith:
which is, if you keep doing the same things over time, you
Lee Griffith:
become resistant to change. And so working on undoing or
Lee Griffith:
unlearning helps you to create the little neural pathways,
Lee Griffith:
reset them. Yeah. And we get to grow and helps us be more
Lee Griffith:
innovative and all of that kind of stuff. So, and
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: it's a bit like that. It's the whole habit
Lee Griffith:
forming thing, isn't it with the neuroscience that actually if
Lee Griffith:
you want to give up a bad habit, you almost have to create a new
Lee Griffith:
one to take the place and redirect the pathway to stop you
Lee Griffith:
from having the gin and tonic with the ice cubes in or
Lee Griffith:
whatever, whatever it might be. And the more times you practice
Lee Griffith:
it, the more that becomes the kind of more updated way of
Lee Griffith:
doing things. So say yeah, brilliant. I love that. Thank
Lee Griffith:
you, Lee. So we
Lee Griffith:
like the Apple operating system where we just
Lee Griffith:
like variations just slightly improving every time. Yeah. And
Lee Griffith:
loving for we get dumped by our husbands and replaced by a
Lee Griffith:
younger model of like, when Apple bring out a new version. I
Lee Griffith:
don't know why I said that. No, I've had that happen. And can I
Lee Griffith:
just say,
Unknown:
No, this time round? Yeah.
Unknown:
Carrie-Ann Wade: I love it. Say it's only taken how many series
Unknown:
for my title oversharer to come out. So moving this on before
Unknown:
this turns into a therapy session, rather than something
Unknown:
more useful for our listeners. I thought it might be helpful
Unknown:
though this may well become therapy. To be honest. I thought
Unknown:
it might be helpful, perhaps to give some examples from our own
Unknown:
experiences, about things. And this is to make it tangible. And
Unknown:
something that people can feel and see is real. What things
Unknown:
might we have had to unlearn in our careers. So I'm delving a
Unknown:
bit here and digging Lee, so feel free to share what you're
Unknown:
most comfortable sharing. But have there been specific things
Unknown:
that you can almost pinpoint gain? Yeah, I had to unlearn
Unknown:
that in my leadership journey so far. And I'm sure there might be
Unknown:
more to come in the future. But yeah,
Lee Griffith:
well, you Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. I
Lee Griffith:
think there's, there's almost been like three stages, I'd say
Lee Griffith:
to my unlearning, in my life, and so there's the kind of the
Lee Griffith:
corporate life where I had to unlearn all the things I'd
Lee Griffith:
learned about leadership, which is kind of what we try and do
Lee Griffith:
with this podcast in a way, which is stuff that was out of
Lee Griffith:
day, or attitudes and behaviors and stereotypes and all of that,
Lee Griffith:
which I you know, and I've talked about this before, on the
Lee Griffith:
podcast that I thought was how I had to behave. So you know,
Lee Griffith:
you've you've you get the wrong role models and all of that. So
Lee Griffith:
I had to do some unlearning. And then what what type of leader I
Lee Griffith:
wanted to be, I think, also, just from a professional point
Lee Griffith:
of view, you know, we know professions evolve and adapt.
Lee Griffith:
And back in the day, when we were both starting out in our
Lee Griffith:
communications careers, yeah, everyone wanted to spin doctor
Lee Griffith:
and wanted someone that had managed the media. And now,
Lee Griffith:
yeah, and you'd say, you've got to do unlearning, to think and
Lee Griffith:
talk like that to satisfy certain audiences. So so I've
Lee Griffith:
got that, then I've got my, I suppose my now business life.
Lee Griffith:
And I've had to do loads of unlearning, in that I had to
Lee Griffith:
unlearn how not to do a nine to five work in like, you know,
Lee Griffith:
what conditioning of I get up at nine work to five, I mean, you
Lee Griffith:
obviously leadership roles, you do a lot longer than that. But I
Lee Griffith:
had to unlearn and redefine what what that looked like for me.
Lee Griffith:
When I did my coach training, you get taught very specific
Lee Griffith:
models, you get assessed to deliver coaching in a very
Lee Griffith:
particular way. And then, actually, when you go out into
Lee Griffith:
the real world, as you start to implement that and you test it
Lee Griffith:
on real clients, you realize that what you get taught can be
Lee Griffith:
a bit too rigid and a bit too directive. And so you know, as I
Lee Griffith:
said, when I came up with the epiphany and invented the word
Lee Griffith:
unlearning, it was when I was doing some, some mentor coaching
Lee Griffith:
and my mentor, and we would we would like challenging what it
Lee Griffith:
meant to show up as a coach and I was like, God, I really have
Lee Griffith:
to unlearn what I got taught in my training about this
Lee Griffith:
particular issue. And so so there's been those really
Lee Griffith:
practical things. And then I think the third area of
Lee Griffith:
unlearning is the real deep mindset stuff. So limiting
Lee Griffith:
beliefs or views that I've had, that have perhaps held me back
Lee Griffith:
from growing as a person so questioning whether I'm good
Lee Griffith:
Enough questioning why should I be the one doing this? Because
Lee Griffith:
someone else is more expert, all of those types of things. I've
Lee Griffith:
had to unlearn some of those narratives that might be
Lee Griffith:
playing. I was No, no,
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: no, no, sorry, I was only because I was making
Lee Griffith:
notes, because so much of what you said, resonated with me,
Lee Griffith:
particularly around the corporate and the business
Lee Griffith:
element of unlearning, and gearing them concurrently. Yeah,
Lee Griffith:
I was gonna say that it's definitely been one for me that
Lee Griffith:
as you were talking, I was actually yeah, I can really
Lee Griffith:
resonate with that, because having to balance having a
Lee Griffith:
corporate leadership role, and then also running my own
Lee Griffith:
business and having a different leadership role in that space
Lee Griffith:
has felt quite challenging. And, and I guess, also the sector
Lee Griffith:
that I work in for my day job, you know, it's a bit about being
Lee Griffith:
a political and, you know, working in the public sector,
Lee Griffith:
which means I've had to sort of think very differently, in that
Lee Griffith:
space found how I show up for my business and putting myself out
Lee Griffith:
there a bit more. And I've sort of had to unlearn some of what
Lee Griffith:
I've naturally maybe thought I better keep some of that opinion
Lee Griffith:
to myself, because that's maybe not going to go down so well in
Lee Griffith:
the corporate space. So that definitely definitely resonated
Lee Griffith:
with me, alongside what you said about kind of questioning
Lee Griffith:
yourself and your validity of being in that space. They sort
Lee Griffith:
of that, you know, why would anybody want to listen to what
Lee Griffith:
I've got to say, kind of thing, there was definitely some
Lee Griffith:
unlearning there. And when, when I posed the question to myself
Lee Griffith:
and reflected on it, a really big part of it, for me, has been
Lee Griffith:
around my sort of people pleasing tendencies, and
Lee Griffith:
actually having to unlearn my desires to want to keep
Lee Griffith:
everybody happy and be liked by everyone, as I've progressed
Lee Griffith:
through my leadership career, because actually, it's not my
Lee Griffith:
job to necessarily be liked, as a leader, it's my job to lead.
Lee Griffith:
And sometimes I have to take decisions that other people are
Lee Griffith:
not going to be happy with. And I've got to unlearn my own
Lee Griffith:
personal desires around wanting everybody to think I'm a nice
Lee Griffith:
person. So. So yeah, there's definitely been stuff that I've
Lee Griffith:
had to unlearn along the way, as well. So thank you for sharing.
Lee Griffith:
I know sometimes we don't always get quite so direct with the
Lee Griffith:
personal questions, but I thought it would be helpful for
Lee Griffith:
listeners to hear a bit about our own experiences, to maybe
Lee Griffith:
help frame some of their own reflections around what they
Lee Griffith:
might want to consider learning
Lee Griffith:
it because it's a buzzword, perhaps still catching
Lee Griffith:
on in certain places. And people might think, well, unlearning,
Lee Griffith:
does that mean I've done something wrong? And yeah, it's
Lee Griffith:
not it's we're not coming at this from a from a point of
Lee Griffith:
doing anything wrong. It's about the evolution, isn't it? Yeah.
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: And I think that's a lovely segue into what
Lee Griffith:
I wanted to touch on next, which is actually how do we know that
Lee Griffith:
we might need to unlearn something partly because maybe
Lee Griffith:
we are like, this is a buzzword that we've not really heard or
Lee Griffith:
talked about before for ourselves, but also because
Lee Griffith:
there might be that like, well, slight resistance to it, because
Lee Griffith:
you're assuming it's about I've done something badly, or I've
Lee Griffith:
done something wrong. So how do you think as leaders, we kind of
Lee Griffith:
get that sense that we need to start unlearning certain things?
Lee Griffith:
I think that, for me, a lot of stuff always goes
Lee Griffith:
back to what's the outcome that you're seeking? And the
Lee Griffith:
question, I've said this on other episodes, and similar
Lee Griffith:
question, which is, what do I need to do differently to make
Lee Griffith:
it happen, and in those insights will be the things you will need
Lee Griffith:
to change. And it might be thinking it might be behaviors,
Lee Griffith:
it might be actions, and that might involve some level of
Lee Griffith:
unlearning. And so I think in recognizing that you need to
Lee Griffith:
change in some way to make something happen will bring a
Lee Griffith:
level of insight and focus on the things that you might want
Lee Griffith:
to tackle in terms of unlearning. But it is a work in
Lee Griffith:
progress. And like any habit change, it will be gradual. And
Lee Griffith:
you might not realize that you haven't even done unlearning.
Lee Griffith:
Until a new habit is formed. You know, there might be things that
Lee Griffith:
you're doing now, that actually you you are subconsciously
Lee Griffith:
unlearning old ways and practices. But you just haven't
Lee Griffith:
couched it as that and then you'll suddenly realize, oh,
Lee Griffith:
yeah, actually, my whole mindset has shifted around this. And
Lee Griffith:
then finally, I think there's something around. There are
Lee Griffith:
other signals that you can be alert to so and it is quite
Lee Griffith:
similar to what we were talking about in the in the risk
Lee Griffith:
conversation and the disruptive leadership conversation. So
Lee Griffith:
being alerted to maybe assumptions that we're making
Lee Griffith:
and questioning why do we think like that, why do we act like
Lee Griffith:
that? Right? Viewing the mistakes that we might have
Lee Griffith:
made. So I know we've said it's not about doing something wrong.
Lee Griffith:
But sometimes it could be that I'm sorry, wrong, but just
Lee Griffith:
perhaps not got the outcome that you had hoped for and learning
Lee Griffith:
from that. And it might be from taking risks. And in doing so
Lee Griffith:
you've got to do something different along the way. And it
Lee Griffith:
could be seeking views and input from other people that aren't
Lee Griffith:
the normal people who are in your circle of influence, or
Lee Griffith:
your support network, who can perhaps the highlight to you
Lee Griffith:
where you might need to focus on on learning. And we'd see that
Lee Griffith:
particularly in diversity, and equity issues, and challenging
Lee Griffith:
your own biases around particular things, you need to
Lee Griffith:
go into different spaces to understand what you might need
Lee Griffith:
to unlearn in terms of what you think, yeah.
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: Well, I couldn't have put it better
Lee Griffith:
myself lead, because the things that I'd had written down in my
Lee Griffith:
notes were around me, that's good. were written down in my
Lee Griffith:
notes around that insight, feedback. And fundamentally, are
Lee Griffith:
we achieving what we set out to achieve. So if you've set out
Lee Griffith:
with an intention to achieve something, and you're not
Lee Griffith:
achieving it, there might be something different that you
Lee Griffith:
have to do and some of that might be about unlearning a
Lee Griffith:
behavior or a certain way of thinking, in order to move you
Lee Griffith:
to that space to achieve it. So absolutely. And, and sometimes I
Lee Griffith:
think there's even a bit of your own gut feeling instinct in
Lee Griffith:
there that actually, this this way of operating as a leader,
Lee Griffith:
for some reason just doesn't sit as comfortably with me now and
Lee Griffith:
it's causing a level of discomfort, which means I might
Lee Griffith:
need to have a rethink about my approach in that space.
Lee Griffith:
And I you know, we've we've talked about this in
Lee Griffith:
previous episodes, but the unknown, I've referenced it
Lee Griffith:
earlier in this episode, but I can really clearly see my kind
Lee Griffith:
of past career that moment in time where what I thought was
Lee Griffith:
true in terms of the leader, I've shown it to be just stopped
Lee Griffith:
sitting right with me. And I had to take that moment to go right,
Lee Griffith:
how am I going to show up authentically? What do I need to
Lee Griffith:
do differently? And how do I start to challenge my thinking,
Lee Griffith:
my reactions, how do I challenge reactions of other people as I
Lee Griffith:
go through that process, and all of that was it was an unlearning
Lee Griffith:
and unraveling, it's like you know, when you if you do knit in
Lee Griffith:
your frog in your frog in the jumper, because it's never gonna
Lee Griffith:
fit or whatever.
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: Some knitting terminology that I've just
Lee Griffith:
learnt there because I am not a knitter, but I'm like, wow, I
Lee Griffith:
maybe want to be Froggen. Who knew that was a thing in
Lee Griffith:
knitting?
Unknown:
So, yeah, so now we've got a vision of what Froggen
Unknown:
might actually be. Anyhow, not
Lee Griffith:
like the other word that animals do is not.
Unknown:
Right, Moving swiftly on.
Unknown:
Carrie-Ann Wade: We have gotten you can tell we're on end of
Unknown:
term happy vibes here.
Unknown:
We like woohoo. Last episode. It's party time. I'm
Unknown:
Chad two sips of a beer. Look what's happened such I said,
Lee Griffith:
I said in one of the earlier episodes that
Lee Griffith:
lightweight or used, I've turned into a lightweight Yeah,
Lee Griffith:
absolutely insane. Because
Unknown:
because of the
Unknown:
Carrie-Ann Wade: sound effect of the ice cubes, I'm keeping it
Unknown:
all under control, but only had the one big slap at the start
Unknown:
gonna be
Lee Griffith:
my unraveling. And Dan be off again. Yeah,
Unknown:
you're frog in episode. So we have focused a bit
Unknown:
Carrie-Ann Wade: on the individual and quite personal
Unknown:
sort of unlearning. And because this is the end of series
Unknown:
episode, and we start the series, most times with a kind
Unknown:
of general, few thoughts about the state of leadership today, I
Unknown:
thought it might be an opportunity to bring it back to
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that wider kind of leadership piece by asking you, Lee, for
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your thoughts about what you might think leaders need to
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unlearn for 2024. And I know I'm, well I know, I'm
Unknown:
potentially creating one of the biggest li soapbox moments ever.
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But I'm gonna go there. I'm gonna go there because we've
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we've got views and opinions and we're happy to share them.
Unknown:
That's why we do the podcast. So in terms of that broader
Unknown:
leadership on learning for 2024 What are your thoughts Lee,
Lee Griffith:
I really had to try and contain myself. Before I
Lee Griffith:
could focus on and say, I've got a few few ideas. I'm going to
Lee Griffith:
try not to get on my soapbox, okay, because it's not going to
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serve my well being
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: great. Being boundaried and thinking about
Lee Griffith:
what you need as a leader in this tea. So I'm loving that
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good role modeling. And
Lee Griffith:
so I think for me, saying things to win popularity
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contests, and even that unlearning around And I need to
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stay polite, and I need to try and people, please, we I think
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we need leaders to be standing up and acting with integrity.
Lee Griffith:
All the more now. And so for me, I think that's that's a real
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thing around unlearning, what what does it mean to be a
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popular leader? And does that mean I have to do things that
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don't align with values, etc, etc. I think there's something
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for me about unlearning the concept of time. And this is a
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big thing for me this year, like how we view time, manage time,
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and I'm seeing more and more impatience in people who want
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everything now. And moving on to the next thing really quickly.
Lee Griffith:
And I questioned like, what for? Like, why, why is why are we
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creating this urgency about stuff, when it's gonna sit in
Lee Griffith:
your inbox for a week before you get to it, and all you're doing
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is creating stress for your teams. And so I think we need to
Lee Griffith:
unlearn this, this concept of how we manage ourselves and our
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people, and it links with that self leadership piece. And I
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also think it links with unlearning what it means to be
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in control, and feeling comfortable with letting go of
Lee Griffith:
control. And stepping into letting people be adult stop
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lists. Just stop treating people like we're the we're the parent
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and they're the child. And as leaders, we know best we don't.
Lee Griffith:
Boy, we don't. And we can see that with some of the people
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that's rising to the top and organizations, they do not know
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best. I'm getting on my soapbox, this
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Carrie-Ann Wade: is what the listeners come here for Lee Come
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on.
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And then I think the other area, I mean, I'm
Lee Griffith:
really reining myself in here because I could I could
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literally just keep going and going and going. But I think
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there's something for me about unlearning what is normal in the
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workplace and in leadership, because I think normal has been
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thrown up in the air over the last couple of years. And yet,
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all I'm hearing is organizations and leaders who are trying to go
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back to a time that I don't think necessarily was the
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greatest. And we know that with the you know, how people think
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and feel about the workplace. We know that with issues of
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equality and diversity, we know that we have gender imbalance,
Lee Griffith:
we know that with, you know, so many indicators, why are we
Lee Griffith:
harping back to go back to this place that, you know, the grass
Lee Griffith:
was not greener, then like, let's get some reality. We need
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to unlearn what we think normal is.
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: I don't know where I go from here. There's so
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much in there, Lee, there's so much in there. And, and again,
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lots of similarities to things that came into my head when
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thinking about what leaders need to unlearn. And this, this
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parent child thing, and sort of the trust stuff, and then going
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back to what it was like before was definitely high on my
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agenda. Because I think we are really at a point in time,
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where, yeah, we've got potential just to be taken so many steps
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backwards, and not actually learning anything that you know,
Lee Griffith:
I'm talking about unlearning. But we're not actually learning
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from, you know, what could make an organization feel like a
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great place to work a great place to get a service or a
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product from because we seem to have started to become obsessed
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with, we want to go back to what it was like before COVID. And
Lee Griffith:
I'm just like, but But why do we need to do that? Because we've
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proved people can work and operate in a different way. So
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what like, what's the purpose in going back? And I think some of
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the argument around that is about that balance between what
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employees need and one and what the organization is here to
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deliver. So I think we need to unlearn that desire to want to
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pair and to tell and dictate and actually learn how to have open
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and transparent conversations about how you can compromise and
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get the best possible outcomes for as many people as you can.
Lee Griffith:
It's definitely something for me
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there and you think you know, politics they
Lee Griffith:
want to go but in America there is a real potential that we're
Lee Griffith:
going to have like the most awful person going back into the
Lee Griffith:
White House that's a real and present danger. That's a film as
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well. Isn't it? Feeling present age I don't know. Now
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: the nice reference if anybody from the
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last episode still got their bingo card out.
Lee Griffith:
You know, that's like, come on. Why reality check
Lee Griffith:
just just the other day. You Yorkshire cricket reinstated a
Lee Griffith:
chairman. Well, we've had to step down because even though
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we're racist, like come on just because they can get some
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: money. So this absolutely leads me on to
Lee Griffith:
something I think we need to unlearn. While some Not we, I
Lee Griffith:
think we probably know this, but let some leaders need to unlearn
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about what reputation management actually means, because I still
Lee Griffith:
think and it has come back up to the surface with all of the
Lee Griffith:
stuff around the post office situation and Fiji, etc, that
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actually, in this day and age, reputation does not mean, make
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sure the brand of our organization at any cost to
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anybody is, is protected, because actually, what we've
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seen in those old school examples of what happened many
Lee Griffith:
years ago, is the reputation of the brand has not been protected
Lee Griffith:
at all, and understanding what makes up your brand, which is
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the way you behave the way that you role model. You know, the
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standards that you set for people, that's actually your
Lee Griffith:
reputation feels like something we really need to just take
Lee Griffith:
stock of and just check in with people to go look, we don't want
Lee Griffith:
this old school, like reputation management vibe, as a leader, we
Lee Griffith:
want you to just basically be doing the right thing. And your
Lee Griffith:
good reputation will therefore follow. And on that point, I
Lee Griffith:
just would say there's something for me about, can we also, I
Lee Griffith:
don't even know if it's possible to unlearn this, because I don't
Lee Griffith:
know how to say the sentence. But can we also unlearn this
Lee Griffith:
kind of, I'm just gonna bury my head in the sand and not deal
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with anything until actually it becomes too much of a prominent
Lee Griffith:
issue. And I have to deal with it. So again, the post office
Lee Griffith:
one maybe even cricket one would be good examples of that as in
Lee Griffith:
like, you know, with this has been going on for a while. Yeah,
Lee Griffith:
it's Yeah, can we get away with it? We can, we've got away with
Lee Griffith:
it for 20 years, but now there's been ITV drama about it, we're
Lee Griffith:
going to take some action, or how many other things have been
Lee Griffith:
rumbling on for such a long time with total inaction?
Unknown:
You know,
Unknown:
Carrie-Ann Wade: is that what it's gonna take, like the media
Unknown:
actually managing people to take leadership decisions, because
Unknown:
they put something into the spotlight is not the way I think
Unknown:
people should be leading. And
Lee Griffith:
this links back to my first point around, you know,
Lee Griffith:
popularity contests and stop trying to do things that you
Lee Griffith:
think will win, you do a popularity contest, that, you
Lee Griffith:
know, that is something that's got to be unlearned. So it's
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kind of like a full circle. It
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: is it is a full circle. And we stopped the
Lee Griffith:
circle there, because I feel like we could go on forever with
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that. And it would take up and another thing and take up the
Lee Griffith:
whole episode. But I did want to just throw that in there.
Lee Griffith:
Because we usually start a series with a sort of laid out
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of what's happened in between. And I feel like we could end
Lee Griffith:
this series with like, what do we need to unlearn so that we
Lee Griffith:
can all be better leaders for 2024? Because we're still early
Lee Griffith:
ish, in the year. So we've got opportunity to make change and
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do things differently. So thank you for indulging me with that
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question. Lee and I yeah, I think you did really well, in
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not getting to full soapbox made for that one. So I ring
Lee Griffith:
was tell me that I'm too stressed to have a lie
Lee Griffith:
down. So you're done. Yeah,
Unknown:
that's, yeah.
Lee Griffith:
I've got one of these wearable technology,
Lee Griffith:
things that I won't mention the brand, but it will tell me if
Lee Griffith:
I'm kind of my stress levels will arise.
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: And we need to keep them at a nice even level
Lee Griffith:
so that you can be the best leader you can be without having
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to manage the impacts of that stress. Lee, so thank you. And I
Lee Griffith:
hope I didn't get you too stressed. I hope your wearables
Lee Griffith:
not I'm about to implode. So I will I'm conscious of time, I'm
Lee Griffith:
conscious that we've got well, I've got a gym that needs to
Lee Griffith:
drink him of ice cubes mountain. And so I'm going to I am going
Lee Griffith:
to try to wrap us up in terms of this conversation. And we are
Lee Griffith:
all about the action here. So I wanted to know what advice and
Lee Griffith:
what action do you think that a leader listening to this could
Lee Griffith:
take around unlearning?
Lee Griffith:
I think it's about recognizing that it's a work in
Lee Griffith:
progress. Absolutely starts with your self awareness and an
Lee Griffith:
openness to change reframe challenge, whatever it is that
Lee Griffith:
you swore for, you knew. And I think that's that's your
Lee Griffith:
premise. That's the mindset stuff you need to do. What it is
Lee Griffith:
you choose to unlearn and when you choose to do it is a whole
Lee Griffith:
other kind of question like that. Let's, let's get the self
Lee Griffith:
awareness piece. So at first,
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: I love that and I think for me, part of that
Lee Griffith:
self awareness is just asking yourself the question, Am I
Lee Griffith:
achieving what I set out to achieve and using that as a
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measure have maybe then where you might want to focus some of
Lee Griffith:
your time and energy. And if I was going to give a plug to
Lee Griffith:
another episode in this series, if you haven't listened to it
Lee Griffith:
already, I think going back to the episode around self
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leadership might also help get you into the right headspace.
Lee Griffith:
Because part of that was around that self. There was there was
Lee Griffith:
lots of selves in the self leadership piece. But part of
Lee Griffith:
that was around that awareness and insight. So in terms of your
Lee Griffith:
own development, I would suggest that might also be another good
Lee Griffith:
lesson for you if you haven't heard that episode already. So
Unknown:
that's the end. That's the end fakes Well, of this
Unknown:
series, I'm
Unknown:
Carrie-Ann Wade: not saying that's the end, full stop. So
Unknown:
this is very polite view is back to your regal manner, you did
Unknown:
raise your hand in a very regal way to get your
Unknown:
beautiful dress friendly.
Lee Griffith:
What's What's your highlight of the series?
Unknown:
Oh, my highlight of the series.
Unknown:
Carrie-Ann Wade: But apart from all the laughs, which obviously
Unknown:
is which, which I love, because we are talking about really
Unknown:
serious topics, yeah, when we're talking about leadership, and we
Unknown:
are committed to wanting to support other people to make
Unknown:
some sort of change, no matter how small to challenge some of
Unknown:
that leadership BS. But what I do love, and what I've loved is
Unknown:
that we have managed to have some laughs along the way, which
Unknown:
I hope demonstrate some level of authenticity and what our
Unknown:
relationship is like with each other. So I'll thank you for the
Unknown:
laughs along the way. I'm not, it's not because I've just said
Unknown:
it. But actually, for me, personally, the self leadership
Unknown:
episode has really been one that I have reflected on a lot since
Unknown:
we recorded it, and thought about a lot in terms of actions
Unknown:
that I want to take over the coming months to help me with my
Unknown:
development, but also getting some balance and really thinking
Unknown:
about my next steps in terms of how I want to show up as a
Unknown:
leader. And a lot of that has been about the self care piece,
Unknown:
because I have spent some time neglecting the things that mean,
Unknown:
I'm possibly not bringing my best self always into the
Unknown:
leadership space. And it's easy to think because they're things
Unknown:
to do with home and health and getting a balance somewhere else
Unknown:
that actually you shouldn't neglect it to be totally focused
Unknown:
on the work and the business stuff. So for me, that probably
Unknown:
has been my highlight for a totally selfish reason. Because
Unknown:
it's helped me to reflect and rethink around, you know, my own
Unknown:
approach to things. So good question right back at you.
Unknown:
Well,
Lee Griffith:
I throw the question at you thoroughly
Lee Griffith:
unprepared. And then realized, as you were talking that you
Lee Griffith:
would do Yeah,
Unknown:
I would, of course, I would. I can barely remember
Lee Griffith:
what I was doing yesterday, far less what we've
Lee Griffith:
covered in this series. And but I actually agree with you, I
Lee Griffith:
think 2020 For the focus on self. leadership's a really
Lee Griffith:
important point I think is we've come out of not even come out of
Lee Griffith:
we are in really challenging times, still, in many ways. And
Lee Griffith:
I think the pandemic gave an opportunity for people to think
Lee Griffith:
about what they wanted in life and careers and work and
Lee Griffith:
everything. And then we've started to slip back into what
Lee Griffith:
is normal. And I think this year is the opportunity to really
Lee Griffith:
start to try and harmonize the, what I thought and hoped then
Lee Griffith:
and let's not lose track of that in the noise that's been created
Lee Griffith:
around us with with it all. And personally, again, just that
Lee Griffith:
focus on I can't show up and serve anyone to my best if I am
Lee Griffith:
not showing up and serving myself first. And and that isn't
Lee Griffith:
a selfish thing to think or feel or do.
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: While cheers to that lay there could not
Lee Griffith:
possibly have been a better ending to the series. So I hope
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if that's the only thing that listeners takeaway, please do
Lee Griffith:
take that away and consider that as you make progress in your
Lee Griffith:
leadership, journeys, careers, whatever. I want to thank
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everybody who's listened to this series of how to take the lead.
Lee Griffith:
It's been a pleasure as always having these conversations and
Lee Griffith:
challenging some of my own thinking along the way. So the
Lee Griffith:
biggest Thank you has to go to you Lee for continuing with our
Lee Griffith:
how to take the lead collaboration. So thank you
Lee Griffith:
also, I like not to extend this conversation
Lee Griffith:
because I feel like you know, we've got
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: you did the good ending, and then we're
Lee Griffith:
like, pulling away from it. Boo, get off
Lee Griffith:
the whole self leadership piece. One really
Lee Griffith:
important step that we've taken this year with the podcast is to
Lee Griffith:
get external support. It's been an opportunity for us to free up
Lee Griffith:
and change how we use our time when it comes to the podcasts
Lee Griffith:
that we can focus on supporting people in a different way. So
Lee Griffith:
yeah, that's a good leadership, proactive action. So thank you
Lee Griffith:
to to our editor and people who've supported
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: Oh, absolutely, that is definitely an important
Lee Griffith:
thank you because it has made the world of difference to how
Lee Griffith:
we are spending our time and self leading. So huge thank you.
Lee Griffith:
So now we can do the chairs, give ourselves a pat on the
Lee Griffith:
back. And most importantly, say thank you to the listeners
Lee Griffith:
who've stuck with us and also to those who might be new. And I've
Lee Griffith:
only just found us we hope to bring more great content your
Lee Griffith:
way over the rest of the year in whatever shape or form that
Lee Griffith:
might take. So, thank you everyone. I hope you enjoyed the
Lee Griffith:
series, and we'll see you next time.
Lee Griffith:
Thanks for listening. Don't forget to hit
Lee Griffith:
follow to make sure you get the next episode. And if today's
Lee Griffith:
discussion resonated, please leave a review on Apple
Lee Griffith:
podcasts.
Lee Griffith:
Carrie-Ann Wade: We also have our substack community where you
Lee Griffith:
can get behind the scenes info, Ask Us Anything session and
Lee Griffith:
build your network with like minded leaders. Visit how to
Lee Griffith:
take the lead.substack.com To find out more.
Lee Griffith:
And if you want to work with us to challenge and
Lee Griffith:
change leadership in your organisation. Get in touch by
Lee Griffith:
dropping us an email how to take the lead@gmail.com or DM us on
Lee Griffith:
the socials. Until next week. Get out there and take the lead.
