Brett “that’s the MTea” Boles joins Zoe and Brian in discussing writing for musical theater, social media and music education.

Brett is an award-winning musical theatre composer, lyricist, and librettist. He wrote his first musical in high school and never stopped. His show Foreverman premiered at the New York Musical Theatre Festival (NYMF) where it received an award for Outstanding Orchestrations and the New World Stages Development award. A reading of his latest creation, Time Stops, was headlined by Norbert Leo Butz in New York City. Brett is also a member of the Tony-Award-Winning BMI Lehman Engel Musical Theatre Workshop in NYC.

Brett is the glasses behind the viral Instagram and TikTok series the MTea. His videos spilling the tea on how songs work have been commented on and shared by the likes of Lin Manuel Miranda and Bobby Lopez. In July 2023, Brett launched the MTea Songwriting Studio to help songwriters around the world learn more about their craft, which – spoiler alert – is when Brian and Zoe signed up and got to know each other.

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Knocked, the show Zoe co-created with the Brussels Musical Creatives is running on 23-25 October in Brussels, Belgium. Get your tickets here.

Hey everyone, and welcome to Making a musical, a writer's journey from blank page to Broadway. Well, hopefully, maybe, I'm hoping we'll get there. Zoe, I think Episode Two, we're on our way. We are. I think, I think I can feel the heat from the footlights. Anyway, I'm your host, Brian stromatz, and with me, as always, my marvelous co host. Zoe de York, hi,

you're too good. Brian, Hi, how are you doing? I'm super excited today, and I skipped rehearsals for my show, which is a big no no, because today we're talking to our first ever guest. And what a guest.

So excited. Oh, it's so good. We are speaking today with the one, the only, the man of the myth, the legend, Mr. Brett Bowles, Mr. M T himself, is joining us.

Zoe in the pod. Yes, he is okay, Brian. Before we jump into this episode, you know, we always want to have a little check in between the two of us before anything gets crazy. So I'm I'm waist deep in knocked. We've got the tickets going on sales now, if anyone is wondering what knocked is, you listen to the first episode and find out the show will be on in on 23 to 25th of October, here in Brussels, in Belgium, and I'm really exciting. It's selling. Well, Oh, wonderful. But what's going on with you? What? What are you doing? You're back in school. I am,

I am zo it. That's so exciting. Though I'm very excited for you. Thank you. I'm so glad tickets are selling anyway, as far as me, yeah, schools back up. We're back in session. I honestly haven't been writing too much lately, which has been kind of a bummer. I've been focusing on school. I've been doing some transcriptions for colleagues that need parts for various band and orchestra scores that we're doing, and I make rehearsal tracks for my choir students. So that's kind of where most of my normal writing time has been focused in like Sibelius and logic and just getting that done, but hopefully it's wrapping up soon. But, uh,

those are always good skills, don't we've talked about this before, that sort of the technical know how is, is massively important,

definitely, and that's and honestly, it's a great way to practice my technical know how, without having to input creativity into it, it's kind of nice little box, yeah, on the theater front for me, we're on a countdown right now to revealing what our spring musical is, and I'm very excited. I'm not going to say it here, no, because the students don't know yet. They still don't, but that's enough about school for today. I think people really want to hear interview with Brett, and I want to talk to Brett. So shall we talk to Brett? Yes, let's go. All right, folks, it's time to introduce our first ever guest on the podcast. Can you believe it? Zoe, I'm so excited the one and only Brett Bowles. Now. Brett is an award winning musical theater composer, lyricist and librettist. He wrote his first musical in high school and has not stopped since I was lucky enough to attend an industry reading of his latest creation, time stops, headlined by Norbert Leo Butz this past spring in New York. And we'll get into that today, and I'm really excited to talk to Brett about it. Yeah.

Brett is also most widely known for his Tiktok and Instagram series, the MT, and that's became his catchphrase. But Brian and I know Brett for a very different reason now, and that's because Brett has been our songwriting teacher for the past two years. And I think it's fair enough to say that there wouldn't be this podcast if there wasn't a Brett,

I totally agree with you. There not only wouldn't be a podcast, but I don't want to speak for you, Zoe, but I could personally say Brett and being a part of Brett's program has significantly changed the course of my life, and I'm just excited to have him here and to talk shop and have some fun. Yeah, yeah. So welcome, Brett,

thank you. Oh, that that warms my heart to hear you talk like that. So thank you.

You warm our hearts every time, so the feeling's mutual. It's a

love fest. It is today. It's going to be all of that, although we do need to speak about some of what you've done outside of the program, although I think we'll get to that as well. But Brian said this in the intro, and I kind of want to hear you explain this. Brett, when did you write your first show?

I wrote my first show around 1415, years old. I was obsessed with the Arthurian legends like King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. I was obsessed with that story, so I wrote my own version of that, which was quite terrible, but we all need to write some bad things before we write the good stuff.

So, yeah, yes, that's true enough. How many shows have you written so far?

That's a great question. Do you not know that many? Yeah, it's been a bunch. Well, that one, this one. I'm gonna say probably seven,

seven or eight maybe. Yeah, that's more than one hands worth. I'd say that's it is more than one hand

I take a long time to write. You know, they

do. You said that your first show was because you were interested in the Arthurian legends. What attracts you to a project? Why? Why do you sign up to write a show?

So normally, with the exception of probably that one, I think almost all of the projects that I've done have something to do with either or both time and some kind of father son relationship. I am just for whatever reason, those kinds of stories just really speak to me. I mean, I had a great relationship with my father growing up, and now it's a little bit more complicated, and I have two sons, and there's just something about, something about those kinds of stories that just really hit me emotionally. So usually, usually it's, it's one or both of those things that draw me to something, although it doesn't have to be, I'm, I'm really interested in family dynamics as a whole, so that really interests me. But it's, it has to be something, it has to be a story that I that I connect to emotionally. Otherwise, it just doesn't make much sense for me to work on something

when, when you're looking for those stories to start telling, do you try to create something original, or do you prefer adapting and building from there.

I've done both original shows are notoriously difficult to write, so I prefer adapting something, or at least working on something that somebody else has already given a lot of thought to, and then coming in and helping mold and shape the story from there. So yeah, that's, that's my preference. I think so

you said the father son relationship and time, is it the same thing that attracts you to a show that you're going to see? Is that something that you resonate with particularly

it is sure, although not only that. I mean, there are plenty of, well, I don't know now I'm thinking about, I mean, my favorite musicals, I guess, have something to do with that. I mean, Ragtime is my, you know, my number one favorite musical, and that definitely deals with parents and children and all that. So yeah, yeah, sure, I would say absolutely that definitely does impact the way I resonate with shows that are already written, although I've certainly be been able to enjoy shows that don't revolve around those themes. But yeah,

as a father, as you think about the shows that you like talking about that experience, is there maybe a song or something that resonates the most with you, that you can kind of point like this, is why I really like this?

Well, there's a song that comes to mind immediately, and it's a song from a musical that maybe it's not the greatest musical of all time, but big fish has a song in it called fight the dragons. And that's not, oh my god. That song gets me every time listening to it, singing it, it just, it makes me think of the relationship that I have with my own sons. And yeah, that hits me right here in the heart, yeah. That's

it's a beautiful score.

It is, yeah. So what has been your career highlight so far? Well,

as far as working with top notch talent goes, I mean, the reading we just had where I got to work with Norbert Leo butts and Lou Stanley was pretty freaking cool. We also had a production of that show go up in Florida a few years back. That was a really cool process to go through. And all the shows that I've written, you know, other than forever man, which was the first original show that I wrote that went up at the New York musical theater festival back when that was still a thing, it was a smaller production. I mean, it was a real production, but it was smaller and more contained, you know, under the auspices of the festival. But this one for time stops that we had a few years ago was the most produced show that I've ever had done, and so that, you know, learning really, getting to learn about that process and living through it. And, you know, being a writer for that process was, was a big eye opening experience, and definitely a highlight for me. So I would say both of those things, both both my very first well, so my very first big production was The Count of Monte Cristo that I wrote in college, which was starring Jeremy Jordan when he was still in school, and we got school together, and so that was produced on the main stage there. So that was that sticks out in my mind as being like, the first time I was like, whoa. This is what it feels like to be a writer during a, you know, during something that gets produced. It's a college level show, but it was still very seriously produced. And then having, you know, the chance to do forever man at the festival was great, and then this other production was great. Of course, there are many years in between each of those, each of those things, which is just always the case, it, you know, takes long time to write these shows, and sometimes even most of the time, even longer, to get them produced so

but it's definitely cool though, be able to have that experience, to go back and look back, I wrote a show in college with none of the knowledge I've gone forward with. It was just literally, I was taking composition lessons for fun, and my professor said, Hey, you want to write a musical? And I said, Sure, and that's no lyric writing experience, nothing. And Brett and Zoe, I've shown you the lyrics, and they will never see the public light of day again. But you know, I felt really proud I was armed with. Sondheim books ready to go. But, yeah, like just seeing the growth from then to now, and mine was just like a one week rehearsal reading. It wasn't even complete its score. So I can only imagine what that with a full production was like,

yeah. I mean, like, they, it was their main stage show in the spring, so we had like a 26 piece orchestra in the pit, and wow, fully realized set and costumes. I mean, yeah, I may never have a show produced that level again, but it was, it was something really, really special. And to be able to sit out in the audience and watch it, you know, was some really something.

Yeah, so just you were talking about the time stops experience doing that full production in Florida, was, was there something in that process? You're talking about how much you learned. Was there something that really kind of stood out or surprised you as a part of that process that maybe you weren't expecting, that you learned that you could take move forward?

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. So that, I mean, there were a few things. I mean, I, you know, I've been in the business long enough to, you know, to understand how these things are put together. But, you know, it was a really top notch professional team that was doing it. And it was the first time that I was actively doing rewrites in the rehearsal room while, you know, while things were, you know, while things were in motion, in their process, and at the same time communicating with an orchestrator who was, you know, busy orchestrating the stuff at the same time. So, you know, I'd be in rehearsal, doing rewrites, communicating with the orchestrator, finalizing sheet music, you know, it's like, so all of that stuff. So it was a really good learning experience. And like, how to be a working writer in the room when all this stuff is happening and the show is going up. And then I also, for the first time, got to, well, got to, had to really, I didn't really want to, but I ended up playing second keyboard in the band for that show. And it was the first time I'd ever used like the, you know, super professional, like the in ears with the, you know, every every instrument zoist gifts their own, you know, mixing console. And so you can hear that I'd never, never done that before, and then having to be in charge of the click track, because that's the keyboard two players job, which I didn't realize. A whole lot more stress to the whole thing. I was gonna ask, if you used a click Yeah, we did. Yeah. But Michael, who was the our music director and music supervisor and key one player and conductor on that, he was very kind, and he showed me the ropes, and it was, ended up being a

lot of fun, actually nice. It feels, it feels like operating the click is some sort of rite of passage, I guess.

So I hope to never have to do it again.

Too much pressure. Yeah, I had to launch the cues for our show. And the first show, I was just barely hanging on.

It's so much pressure. I not to change the subject too much, but I just, there's a really cool video I just saw today popped up on Tiktok, of the guy who mixes one of the well, the guy who is a man and a woman who do it on, I guess, different nights, but he's at the board mixing for Hamilton, and was showing, like, showing what his script looks like and how he rides the faders during the show. And it was like, I can't even imagine having that job, the dexterity you have to have, the fourth, you know, the you have to I just can't. And he says it's the hardest show that he's ever had to work on, or ever had to mix. And he said he's, like, operating at 90% of his, you know, capacity every single show he does. But he said it's really fun. And it just watching his fingers do what they do. It's like, I don't even it was, nope, thank you. No. Thanks, dope. I think if

you want to go more in depth than that, actually, Adam Savage, on his tested YouTube channel, has an in depth with the he's a whole bunch of in depth Hamilton

videos. That's who I was watching. That's exactly what I was watching.

Yeah, one thing that's striking to me when I when I hear you guys talking, is, I know you have a very similar background. Brett, you were a high school teacher, and this is Brian's current job. So I wanted to talk about education and musical theater writing. But firstly, Brett, can you sort of summarize your education to musical theater? How did you get to where you are now?

Yeah, well, I started as a performer in seventh grade eighth grade. Fell in love with musical theater through performing, and I had also dabbled in writing like country songs. And I always say it's not a huge leap going from country songwriting to musical theater songwriting, because they're both very story oriented. And I always have considered myself a storyteller in every aspect of my life, and everything that I've ever done professionally and creatively in my life, it's always had something to do with storytelling. So my storytelling. So my love for musical theater as a performance art came first, and then shortly after that, because I was writing music anyway, I figured, oh, maybe I can write the stuff that I like to sing. So I started doing that, and obviously listening to more shows, going to see more shows, and then going to doing the whole college thing. My degree was in music composition, and Ithaca has a great musical theater program, which is one of the reasons I chose to go there. And so being able to work and get my music composition degree while also working on a musical that ended up being performed there my senior year was great. And then a few years after graduating from college, I joined the BMI Musical Theater Workshop in New York so as a lyricist, so I got to learn all about the craft of lyric writing, which. Was something I knew nothing about. Thought I was decent at it, until I went to the workshop and realized I don't know anything actually at all. So learning there was a was a big deal, and then also working on my own stuff while learning all about that gave me a chance to really hone the craft while I was writing. So

can you talk about the BMI workshop? Actually? What is it I can and how? How would you do there?

Yeah, so the BMI workshop is program started in the 1960s by a Broadway conductor named Lehman Lehman angle, and it was created to teach the craft of musical theater songwriting to up and coming lyricists and composers. So the way it works, essentially, there are two years of BMI, so the first year you are paired with different people. So if you're in as a lyricist, you get paired with another composer seven different times throughout the course of the year, you work on seven, seven various assignments with these people. And at the end of the first year, you're tasked with writing a 10 Minute musical, and you present that for your for your class. And then the second year, you choose somebody to work with on a full length musical, and then at the end of the second year, you present 20 minutes of that full length musical to the steering committee at BMI, and they choose whether you're going to go into the advanced workshop, which is basically a lifetime membership in BMI, or whether they decide, no, you're not going to advance. That's how it works.

What came out of it for you?

Well, I have a couple of you know, since lifelong relationships, friendships and partnerships that came out of that workshop, one of whom is my, my very good best friend, Rob Berliner, who was sitting off to my right at this very moment, we have worked on, you know, some certain things together. He was a he was also in as a lyricist. So we didn't get to collaborate during the actual workshop, because we were both lyricists, but we became friendly. So that's been a treasure of my time at BMI, and also working with my collaborator, Natalie Tenenbaum, we met and started working on our Benjamin Button musical our second year. And so that's been, you know, an ongoing relationship slash collaboration partnership, that I've had since then. So a lot of good came out of it. Plus, you know, it's a wide network of people, so you get to meet a lot of people who some of whom you never hear from again, and some of whom are writing Broadway shows. And, you know, you just never know, I'm sure it's almost like a stamp of approval on the resume, too. It doesn't it doesn't hurt. You

mentioned working with Natalie on the show. So what was the show? And where is it at this point, what sort of what was the experience writing with a composer? BMI, workshop composer.

I really preface this by saying that when I was accepted into the workshop, since I applied as both a lyricist and a composer, because my degree was in music composition. And I'm almost embarrassed to say that I was disappointed when they accepted me as a lyricist, because I felt like it was some, some, you know, statement on my capabilities as a composer. I was like, but my degree is in composition, like I understand, but it was actually was the best thing that could have happened, because my my music writing skills would not have improved doing that there, because I that was something I already understood how to do. But my lyric craft, you know, is improved exponentially. So meeting Natalie, we decided to work on it was actually her idea to work on a Benjamin Button, which was a based on a short story by F Scott Fitzgerald, about a man who ages backwards. He's born as like a tiny, little 85 year old man, and he, you know, gradually throughout his life, ages in reverse, which to me time, and all of that is, you know, I was very attracted to that immediately, when she said that, I was like, Yes, this is, this is the thing. The short story is only about 14 pages long, very short. And so what I ended up doing was just taking the concept of a man who ages in reverse, and I wrote my own story around it. So it's a completely original story around the concept of a man Aging Backwards. So we had a first draft completed in about two weeks, which is insane. It never happens. It never, ever, ever happens that way. But I was so focused on it. It's all I did. I barely slept for those two I mean, I just worked on that show. And then she wrote the music very, very quickly. And we had, we've had numerous readings. We had a small workshop of the show in London at the Southwark Playhouse. And then we had a UK tour that was, like, almost ready to, you know, we were gonna, you're gonna talk, you know, contracts and things. And then pandemic happened, and the world shut down, and we lost that. And so since then, there was another Benjamin Button that opened on the West End in London and won the Olivier Award. So we don't know whether they're going to transfer here or not. So we're sort of in a limbo period right now where we're waiting to see what that production does. If they do decide to transfer, then we're pretty much dead in the water, and that's just the way it goes. And if they don't, then maybe we'll start something up over here. Full disclosure

to the listeners, Zoe and I have heard a lot of Benjamin Button. We were at a reading we did, and it's fantastic, and I hope it goes somewhere. Thanks. But is this one of those situations where. Maybe you could revisit and basically just rename things and not be attached to the Benjamin Button IP.

I mean, the so the problem with that is that one of the one of the assets of the show is the IP. That's why that's something that's very attractive to producers, because it's IP that is very widely known. And so as soon as you start, as soon as you veer away from that and turn it into something else, it's not as attractive anymore, because nobody knows what it is, and it's much harder to market. That makes sense, yeah? But IP is King seems Yeah, yeah. It's It's rough. You either have to be Steven Schwartz or and even then, it's probably best if it's an IP that people know, but if you're not, you know

now that we've delved into BMI, I want to talk about you going back into education, but as an educator, and that's probably what people know you most for through your social media now, yeah, how, how did you find your way back to that, and how did you make that work with your writing job?

So ever since I graduated from college, I've been teaching on some level. I taught voice, I taught acting, did a little songwriting teaching on the side, and that was all those like private lessons as I was trying to make my career do something as a writer, obviously it doesn't pay very well or very steadily doing that kind of work. And so before my second son was born, I made the decision to go get my my oh four nine teaching certification. So I spent a year doing the alternate route certification program that was run by the state of Connecticut, and got my certification and immediately got a job teaching choir in public school in West Hartford, Connecticut. And great choral program. But it was a very, very intense program. It was, you know, one of the best programs in the state. And this was a lot of hours, you know, I was at school all the time, Brian, you know, because right now you're

just, I got home from doing that thing about 10 minutes before we started recording. So I feel, yeah,

yep. So that's just one of those things that takes so much time. And so, you know, and I taught the years that I taught, 2018 through 2023, so it was right through the pandemic, you know, that that section of time there that we all would rather pretend didn't exist, and I was working on, what was I working on? That I was working on a show called Home Sweet Home, that I was brought on to write with a guy named Michael Lowman, who was one of the writers on The Bob Newhart Show long time ago, and a director on Sesame Street for a long time. And that was a lot of fun. But it, you know, it was like every spare moment I had, you know, it was like if I was in between classes, if I well, you know, after everybody went to bed, I would go up and work. Or if somebody, you know, if my ex wife took, you know, the kids out shopping, and I was home alone for an hour, an hour and a half, you know, I would use that time to write whatever I could. So you just find the little, any little window of time that you have to do that. And then at the same time, I was also starting the social media thing. So, you know, making videos, trying to post every day, which is insane, but it's something that I felt like I could keep up with. And I did for a little while, but not forever. And that's, you know, that's when the MT started. So is, but it's all been in service of teaching and education. Because I'm, you know, next to in addition to writing, I'm also very, very passionate about teaching and passing on the craft of good songwriting to folks.

Have you ever considered not doing it, focusing on just one of these, letting go of writing and just doing teaching, or letting go of teaching and just doing writing.

No, I think it's a compulsion to me to do both those things, like I have to do I have to do both things. It's my life isn't full unless I'm doing both of those things. That's a very full life. It is a very full life. I guess that's what I've chosen, or it

shows me. I mean, from my experience, it's a pretty good life. So it's

a great life. I have no complaints. I am living my absolute best life these days.

And besides, sleep is overrated. Yeah, exactly.

So maybe let's talk about the MT and the social media all of that. How did you how did you start it? Why did you start it? What was the compulsion there?

Well, it was January of 2021, when I made my first Tiktok. So it was, you know, right, in those pandemic times, that's a covid project. Oh, yeah, it was absolutely a covid project. You know, theater was shut down. Nobody was really, nobody had that. I didn't have that creative outlet. Nobody else really had that creative outlet. And I wasn't really able to make much theater. So there were a couple of thoughts. So the first thing is, I knew, as a writer, and I had known for a while that we have to have some kind of a social media presence. You just have to. These days, it's just a thing that you have to. But I never, I never understood what I could post on. Social media. Like I knew people didn't want to see what I had for breakfast every day. So I, like, never really understood how to use how to use it, until my students who were on tick tock, which I didn't really even understand what that was, but they were telling me, Mr. Bulls, you should, you should make a tick tock about what, like, what I because they just knew I was fun and whatever. So they figured I could do something on Tiktok that would engage people. And so then I had a it was a shower thought, because I was thinking, What can I if I need to have a social media presence, what can I give to people that they can only get really from me and nowhere else, like, What can I offer that nobody else can what can I offer that that it's an endless supply of content so I wouldn't have to agonize over what to post all the time, and even though sometimes I still do. And my thought was, well, I haven't really seen anybody talk about why we love the songs that we love. And I thought maybe that's a good way for me as to sort of synthesize my gifts as a teacher, as a performer and as a songwriter, into into one thing and give people something that they would enjoy as entertainment and as education.

What I love about that is you just you decided that you were you were an educator and you were a writer. And how do I pull those two things together? And yeah, you know, when you say, I can't stop, it's a compulsion. That's the culmination of that compulsion.

It really, really, it really is, yeah. And then, you know, the idea of, originally, it was only going to be musical theater. I was like, I was going to just talk about musical theater songs. And so, as my kids would always, you know, use the term spilling the tea, you know, like, what's, what's the tea today, Mr. Bulls. And I thought, well, MT is the abbreviation. Is the slang, vernacular abbreviation for musical theater. And so what if I was spilling, if I'm spilling the tea on musical theater songs? I just thought the MT would be a cool play on words. And it was just one of those things that and then it was, became a catch all for everything, because it's also MT is music theory. It's music teacher. It's, you know, so it just sort of worked for everything that I ended up expanding to and doing from there. Just it was a lucky, I don't know it was a lucky, fortuitous, serendipitous

thought, and it's worked out nicely. Every good thought comes out in the shower.

I'm telling you, that's very true. What's the what's been the response for you, what? How have you? Have you handled that?

I never expected more than a few 100 people to tune in and find it interesting, which was fine with me. I was like, hey, if I could, you know, if I could have a few 100 people, I think that that would be great. I never expecting that as many people would resonate with it as they did. And I think also, there was some something about the timing of it that was just right, because it was during that period where this was all still, I mean, it very much is still kind of the Wild West, but it was really like the Wild West. And I think people gained a following a lot quicker back when I was when I started doing this. And so it, I think the timing of it helped me. But what I what surprised me the most, shocked me the most and delighted me the most were once people that I really admired in the industry started seeing my stuff and following along and validating it, that that was like, oh, maybe there is, maybe there really is something here, and maybe that maybe I can do something with this, more than just finding time between class periods to record videos. You know, maybe there's, maybe there's a life here somewhere.

Well, you're teeing up the the next bit of your life pretty well there we said. We said at the beginning, Brian and I were we signed up to your empty songwriting studio early on, very early

on. And I'm so grateful for that. We both are

in in many more ways that you know, yeah, you have helped me build, rebuild and build back and whatever phrases you want to use in more than just skill level. So you know, I will forever be grateful to you, and I'll stop being sappy. Now, it's an honor and a privilege. Well,

if you talk to people in the class, or at least the people I know well enough. Now I think we all can say that it's changed. It's massively changed our approach to songwriting, not only that, but also just approach to a lot of the things that we have to deal with in life, because now we have this thing, and we have this community, and we have all of this. But before I get carried away with sapiness, do you want to talk to us about the MT songwriting studio, what you're doing and what it's because I could talk all day about what it's brought me, and I might at some point, but I'd like to hear what it's brought to you.

Yeah, oh my God, so many things. So much more than I even thought it would, just in terms of the creation of it my last year of teaching. So in October of 22 which is when shortly after Lin Manuel Miranda started following me on Instagram, all of a sudden, I realized, you know what, I could probably teach private songwriting lessons and make at least as much as I'm making teaching, if not more. And at the time I was going through the song. Writing the Masters in songwriting program at Berkeley, and one of my professors, guy named Patrick Irmak, told me I should not do that. He said, If you want to teach and make something of your you know, if you want to leverage your social media stuff and teach songwriting, you should do so, find some way to do a group like a one to many group thing, because it'll be more sustainable for you financially, and you'll be spending less time, you know, in front of a computer screen, than you would teaching, you know, 10 lessons a day, or whatever, which I thought was, oh, that's, that's smart. So I did some research. And then in December of 22 I put in my resignation, because I knew that there was a way for me to do this somehow, even though I didn't know exactly what I was going to do. And so between December and June, I did some research on how to like, how to set up a program like this, and right at the end of the school year, came across, if an ad on my Facebook feed from a guy named Paul, Paul the trombonist, as he calls himself on social media, and he ran a program called the seven figure entrepreneurs club for music educators who wanted to sell their content online. And I thought, well, this is, this is exactly what I want to do. So I watched his webinar. I got a good vibe from him. I talked to his team. It was a $10,000 investment to join his program. I did not have $10,000 I had a third of that. So they let me split it into three payments, and I gave him everything I had in my checking account, everything I had and I had, meanwhile, you know, my last paycheck had just come in. I had nothing lined up. So it was like, I have to make this work. And so within two weeks of joining his program, I put together my first webinar, as you know, because you were there. And then from that webinar, we had 60 calls booked. So, for two weeks back to back, I was on calls. And out of that, we enrolled like 23 people, and the two of you were among those first 23 and not really knowing, I mean, knowing what I wanted to do, but not quite knowing what the vibe was going to be. You know, all I could do was select the people that I felt vibed with me, and would vibe with each other, and y'all did.

So, yeah, that was that, I think, for everybody in that first group, that was the big realization is, how did this happen? Why are we all turning into lifelong friends? When, when this is an online, you know, program that this guy in Connecticut put together, what happened?

You know, all I can say is, when you put stuff out into the universe, you attract what you put, you attract back what you put out there. And so it makes sense to me, thinking about that now that you are all the people who came to because you're all the kind of people that I want to hang out with, it worked out really well. And not only did I do, I did I do? I get to teach the stuff that I'm passionate about, but I get to do it with people I really enjoy spending time with, like, coming to these calls. You know, the calls that we do every week are like the highlight of movie. You know, whenever I have to cancel one or miss one, it's like, it bums me out, like, I really enjoy doing those.

And it's, it's same on our end too. Yeah. I mean, now that school's starting up, I don't get to come as much because of my school schedule. And, man, it's a bummer. And when I get to come, it's like, a breath of fresh air. It really is. Yeah,

it's amazing. And I don't even feel like guilty saying this, but like, I feel like I don't have to do much work. Like, I really don't like, I mean, this is the stuff I live, eat and breathe this stuff so like, it's not hard to teach it, and like it is only fun. For me, it never feels like work at all, ever, and it just fills me with such joy, and it's such an honor to be able to and a privilege to, like, be able to do what I love to do for a living. And you know, it's brought me time. It's, you know, I have more time to spend with my kids and the people I care about in my life. And to, you know, travel a little bit more than I ever used to, and have time to write, which I never really I mean, I made time when I was teaching, but now to actually have the time to do that, although I'm not doing as much as I probably should, but I do, I do have more time now. And so it's, it's, it's brought me. It's changed my life as much as it's changed your life. It has changed my life completely and irrevocably.

Yeah, you know you're doing what you love and love what you do. They say, do what you love every day. You'll never work a day in

your life. Or so true. So true. This is living proof.

Also, one of my favorite phrases from you is you took that imperfect action when you didn't have a choice. Imperfect Action. Man, that idea will change your life. Yeah, so you took that in perfect action.

And wait, I want, I want Brett to explain this imperfect action. Yes,

imperfect action. So, so the the full phrase is, imperfect action leads to insight. More than insight leads to action. And so basically, what that means is, if you sit around thinking forever about doing something, the chances are you're never going to do it. But if you just leap in with both feet mistakes and all, chances are you will, you'll figure it out. You don't have a choice, and you have to shift that mindset and just make it like I don't have a choice. I got to jump into this thing, even if I don't know what I'm doing or I don't go. Completely understand. But you know, it's in a situation, of course, where, where it makes sense. Obviously, you're not going to leap off a 10 story building that's that's not imperfect action, that's death. So we don't want to do that. But you know, when, when you have a supportive group of people around you, when you have a, you know, a mentor or somebody there to sort of guide you and lead you, the most important thing you can do is take imperfect action. It's how you learn. It's how you get better. You just have to jump in and do

it. That's the interesting. Thing is you've you've not only turned your life into this new career and a job that doesn't feel like a job, but you've also become this life guru for about 150 people in the world.

Hey, whatever I mean it. I just, I take what I learned from other people, it's worked for me, and I figure if it worked for me, it probably will work for all of you as well.

So that's not wrong. All right. Let's get back to writing a little bit. So if you look back now and you look at Brett writing his first show, and you look at what you write now how, how do you feel about baby Brett writing his show, and what's the one thing that has really changed your writing process.

So I think one one thing that before I answer that directly, I'll say that one thing that I think I had going for me, and in some ways I still find myself doing this now, is the less I know about something, the less I know what I'm up against and what the odds are and how hard it is. So in some ways, it makes it easier to dive in, because you don't know all of that stuff. And so that's pretty much what baby me was doing. Was like, Hey, I love this art form. I like writing. I don't really, I guess, know much about it. But that didn't stop me from going, I'm just gonna just do this. I'm gonna do this for fun and, you know, experiment and play, which is exactly what it was I was just playing, of course, now, with the skills and the knowledge that I have over, you know, those 25 years since I started doing that, I look back and go, Oh, geez, I didn't, I didn't know anything but it. But if I, if I had known what I was up against back then, look, I would have done it anyway, because I can't help it, but it would have been much more difficult. And I, you know, difficult. And I, you know, it would not have been, it would not have been as easy as it was. Ignorance is bliss in a lot of ways. Yes, yeah, it's, I mean, ignorance with a willingness to learn what you don't know. You know, you can't stay that way. But, yeah, I think that helped me. I forgot the second part of your

question. I forgot it as well. No, hold on

while you look that up, I got a follow up question, just out of curiosity, talking about young Brett, what kind of helped you fall in love with theater like, was there a show? Was there a moment I know for me, a seminal moment for me, other than seeing my first show, which was curtains, which, again, will always have a place in my heart, is my first cast album I came across. It was like, in a crate of hand me downs we got from someone, and it was the Mary Martin Peter Pan on CD. I never saw it, but I am obsessed over that album to the point where, like, if you listen to I won't grow up there in the middle of it. She goes, gives a good like, I won't grow up in the middle of it. And you can hear someone laughing in the studio from it in the background of the crowding, that's how much I've listened to it, and here I am today. Did you what was your experience? What brought you to that? What was your Mary Martin,

so mine was a moment in the back of my dad's car as he played Les Mis for the first time. And the first song I heard from, it was castle on a cloud. And for me, obviously, you know, I was about about the same age as Cosette, you know, as the little girl singing that song was, and I there was something about it that I could really relate to. I was a shy, little, quiet kid who just tried to stay out of the way and, like, read my book in a corner. And something about that song, just like, really captivated me. And shortly after that, I did a performing arts camp the summer seventh grade that my grandmother thought I should do. I was not thrilled about it, because I, you know, me around people, and I'm still very much an introvert, and I've always have been and so, like, it was, like, it was like, I didn't want anything to do with it. But once I got there, and the director, who I'm still friendly with to this day, she was fantastic. And for whatever reason, when I got up, because she knew I could sing. I mean, I knew I could sing, but I never really sang in front of people that much, but she saw that I had something to give. And then when she gave me a solo and I realized that I didn't have to be me doing that, that I could be another person. I could just slip into the skin of someone else, that started me on the acting journey. And I was like, This is amazing. Like, I can be in front of 1000 people and be totally fine if I can do it this way. So that got me started on the path to performing in musical theater, and that would just seal the deal. You know,

I feel like in everything that you've told us, and a lot of those musical theater writing experience or performing in your case as well, come from meeting the right people, maybe at the. Right time, or like remembering who they are and putting yourself out there and just daring to dream at some point, you know, can you, can you talk to us about the importance of who you work with and how you meet people and how you work with people? Because it's not always easy.

No, it's not. And I think this is where, this is where my probably, where my childhood trauma comes in handy a little bit because I am notorious people pleaser. So I'm not one to like, make waves or so like, I can work with anybody. You know, I know. I know how to handle people After navigating a childhood of trying to navigate my parents, you know, I I understand people. I can read people pretty well, and I know I know how to handle them. And so at least in the early part of my, you know, career doing this, I feel like people would want to work with me, because I could work with any personality in a way where people appreciated me. And for that reason, I've always been able to develop solid relationships with folks, as long as I'm not the one that has to do the reaching out, because I'm very, very bad at that, but I try to be the kind of person that people just want to hang out with. So case, case and case in point, Rob, you know, he probably wouldn't be my friend if he didn't consistently, like, reach out to me, like, Hey, what are we hanging out? Where are we going? Because I'm just terrible. I'm terrible, terrible at that. So only the people in my life who, like, really want to be friends with me end up being friends, because I'm just terrible anyway. But in terms of collaborating and working with folks, you know, look there, there is absolutely a place in this business and in working relationships to be assertive, and I've gotten better at that, at least in terms in terms of working relationships, is like, hey, when I know something is right, you know, I'll, I'll justify it, and I'll find a way to, you know, but, but I'm just, I try to be very easy to work with, and I try to be the kind of person that people just want to spend time with. It's helped me a

lot. Have you ever regretted that choice because someone would take advantage of

you. Oh, yeah, yes, absolutely, there have been, yeah, I recall, and I won't, I won't name the project or the people, but there was, there was a project where a producer had had brought me on to this because he knew me from something else, and I was working with this book writer, and she was kind in the beginning, and then she ended up having some kind of something happened up here. And she called me one day and told me that the producer was in bed with the Russians, and he was picking money from, like, it was, like crazy stuff. And yeah, and she, we were supposed to open this show at a theater up in Maine, at the Algonquin Playhouse in Maine. And she wanted to continue without this producer. She wanted me to come with the show, and Le, and, you know, leave this guy in the dust, and he brought me on, and I felt loyal to him. I felt like I could not, I could not do that with a clear conscience, like I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. And so, you know, in that was one of the first instances where I I just, I couldn't, not, I couldn't do it, you know. And so I said no. And thankfully, I had a lawyer at the time, but her lawyer came after me, and it was a little nasty for a little while, so that was one of the times that I regretted, you know, maybe being too much of a pushover about some things, but I ultimately did the right thing.

I feel like doing the right thing always gets you further than in the long term. Oh yeah, I have no regrets about that. It sounds like you did the right thing. And I mean, I'm sure you gain that producers trust even more, and hopefully you have to keep working with them.

Absolutely. He brought me on to another project after that, too. And, you know, it's fine, but yeah,

just what are they? What do they always say? Like, what 90 95% of the gig is the hang. So as long as you're, yes, we're the hang,

I have to tell you. And you, both of you know this. But you know, for people out there who don't so many of my jobs and things that I do on the side here come from my very good friend, Michael Moritz, who hires me for everything because he knows a that I have a big heart, that I'm easy to get along with, that I do the work, and that the work is generally good. And that came from a relationship before he was anybody of notes, and you know now he has, you know, Emmys and Tony's and Grammy nominations and whatever. And so it's just, you just never know, you never it's just be nice. Be a nice person. Be good to work with. Do good work. Do it timely. Meet your deadlines. And people will want to keep working with you

and pay it forward when you can say, I'm a direct recipient of that, you know, you brought me on to help it out with some of the orchestrations for the time stops reading, of course, you know? And I appreciate that. And it's, you know, I've done it with all my own local gigs.

Yes, I strongly believe

in that you've got first time musical or theater writer. What advice would

you give them? Just general life advice or general. Like industry advice.

We know you're very good at life advice. No industry advice.

Yeah, it's really important to hang out with people who do the thing, you know, and in any way that you can. Most music directors are pretty game to like, let you sit in the pit of a Broadway show. So they're happy to do that. They do that all the time. So that's a really good thing to do. You know, be be open to saying yes to collaborations, because I think collaborating makes you better and surround yourself with people who are smarter than you and who are better at you, better at you, better than you at what you do, because you get you get better that way, collaborate with people who are better than you, you know, or who know more, I mean, slightly better than you, but people who know more have more experienced than you. Experience than you, because you learn that way. The reality is that so much of this business is opportunity and luck and who you know and timing. So I would say you need to put yourself in a position where opportunity can find you as best you can and as often as you can, and then, but, but the other, the flip side of that coin is you also have to make sure that you are ready for that opportunity to find you, that you can back that up with the skills and the tools and the techniques and the craft, because it's not good to say yes to something and not deliver. You know, that's

that's not good. Success is preparation and luck, absolutely.

Yeah, that's some combat, some ratio of preparation,

preparation, perspiration and luck,

right? It's where, you know, preparation meets opportunity or whatever. That's right, something like that.

Look for a poster coming soon. Yeah? T shirt, a t shirt.

All right, I want to talk to you about future project and what's coming for you, because I know you've got a lot going on, yeah, but before I do that, and because you know, Brian is here, and Brian worked with you and attended the reading of time stops. Would you tell us a little bit about that process, getting a reading on Broadway getting you know the big names to do the reading with you.

Yeah, I'm happy to report that I had pretty much nothing to do with any of that, quite literally,

talking about opportunity knocking when you're ready.

I mean, not to say that I had nothing to do with it, but, but you know, we did have between Michael Moritz, who is the supervising producer on this thing, and music supervisor Chad Larrabee, our director and myself, we, you know, had a little brainstorm about if we could get anybody we wanted to play these lead roles, like, who would, who would we want? So, you know, we had our short list, and Norbert was because Michael is norbert's music director for his gigs. So Michael knows Norbert. He asked him and gave us a call and said, Hey, we got Norbert. So that happened very quickly. Yeah, it was another guy with that. And then he also had a connection to Elizabeth Stanley, who ended up playing the lead female role, but she was, you know, we had originally, we we went back and forth with a few different names, and she ended up being the one who was available and able to do it. So that came together really nicely. But this was it was not me. Michael really did most of the reach out there, and he took because he was the producer, like all the planning is on him, and I didn't really do I was. I insisted from the beginning of this that I did not want to be the music director for this because I had for the production we did a few years ago. I taught some of the music, and the last two weeks of our show, I was the de facto music director, and, you know, played and taught all this stuff. And it was I didn't want to do that again. So I said, let's get a music director. So he said, fine. So we got a great music director, Evan zo Beda, who was fantastic. So I didn't really have to do much other than be be in the room where it happens and, you know, do a little rewrite here and there, find the right keys, you know, give the give the performers little you know, pieces of insight when and where I could but it's such a quick process. One of those, it's a 29 hour reading. So you don't have much time to rehearse with these folks. So it's really just about them learning the stuff and then going up and doing it. So it's a very, very quick and dirty process. And I didn't really have very much to do with it, other

than being in the room. But you, I've heard you say this. You know, being in the room when when the stuff gets learned or gets rehearsed, is one of the one of your joys as a writer. Can you talk about

that? Yeah, look, listening to your stuff be performed by people at the top of their game is just, come on. It never gets no All right, it never gets old. I don't care who you are. It is always a delight to hear that. So that is that's always amazing. And to be able to, you know, work with these people, to be able to sit there and give Norbert notes on the music that he's singing that I wrote is like, Yeah, I mean that there's, it's like, you know, you have to temper the fan boyness with the professional in the room. But yeah, it's it. It is. It is an absolute joy, especially when they're nice, kind people. To work with and to a person. They all, they all were just really, really wonderful to work with and very accommodating. And you know, as a writer, you want to make sure that you're accommodating their vocal ability, their vocal capabilities as because you want them to sound as good on the material as possible. So it becomes a collaboration between the music director and the writer and the performer to try to figure out, like, how to best make that work. And so, you know, you make some adjustments, you tweak some things, here and there, and but, yeah, I love that. I love that process. I love the I love the quick process, because there are high stakes and pressure, and I work really well under pressure, I've found so I enjoy that a lot.

So how did, how did having a separate music director kind of help with all of that? Because, like in the stuff that I've done, I've been music director, composer, orchestrator, all of that, so you're wearing so many hats. Was, were you able to focus on things differently or think differently without kind of taking away that music director

piece? Yeah, absolutely. That's why I asked to do it, because I find, and this is different for some people, but I find when I'm music directing, I'm in music director mode, and I'm I'm in accompanist, slash listening to make sure I'm together with a performer like I am not able to listen critically to, like how the material is reading, You know. And when you have somebody as competent as Evan at the keys, who can teach the stuff, then I can just be the writer in the room and listen to how the stuff is reading. And if I need to make changes or make adjustments, it's much easier for me to just wear that one hat and try to do both things at once. It's really hard for me. Some people find it easier. I don't.

I kind of want to ask you, what came out of the reading, what was the aim of would you why? Why do you put on reading like that and and did all of that come to fruition?

So the reason you do a reading like that, our purpose for this reading was specifically to get people with money in the room, regional theater people to come sit in the room and listen and see if we can get some interest to do, to do the show out of town or, you know, off Broadway or whatever, or just get another workshop done of it somewhere. As of this moment, absolutely nothing has come of it. And I suspect, if it hasn't yet, that it probably won't. And that's, you know, that happens in this business. I mean, these people do a lot of readings of a lot of new shows, and most of them go nowhere. And every now and then you

get lucky. Is that why you you're working on so many shows at once,

it's good to have several irons in the fire. Yeah, for that reason. Yeah.

So what's next for you? What's your your your focus for, for the future,

in the immediate future, the next year? So my book is, is the thing. So I'm writing, I'm writing a book tentatively. Well, it's not really titled yet, something something like musical theater writers handbook, or something basically about writing for musical theater. So I want to really dig into the craft of writing music and lyrics for the stage. And so currently it's in process. I have a great agent at ARC literary, and she is working on a proposal to pitch to big publishing companies, and we're hoping to have a deal by the end of October, and we'll see where that goes. So we're tentatively looking at a spring 2027, release of that book as of now. Ooh, exciting.

So now, Brett, I don't know if you got around to the first episode that we did, but we play this little game at the end of each of our episode, and since Brian came up with it, I'm gonna let him explain the game. Yeah,

so the game is called lyric or lie. Insert cheesy game show music here. So basically, we're gonna share a lyric with you. We're not gonna tell you what show it's from or anything like that. We'll tell you after, but it's either going to be the lyric as it appears in the show, or it's a lie, and I'm gonna warn you now. I'm devious. He is. Yes, that's your warning. I'm

devious. I You think I might be good at this, but I guarantee you that I'm not gonna be so good at this. But we'll see how it goes. Oh,

we'll see. We should also say that we have bonus points if you can, if you can identify the show and or the writer. Okay, all right. Okay, so here we go. Brian, you want to start us off?

Yeah, I'll start I'll start off us crazy easy. How's that sound? We'll ease into it. Okay, Up where they walk, up, where they run up, where they're having all the fun, wandering free. Wish I could be part of that world.

Okay, that is a lie, my friend. And that is Howard Ashman. That is, well, it's part Howard Ashman,

exactly, for those who don't know the actual lyric, as you swim out from under your rock, it's the Little Mermaid. It's Up where they walk up, where they run up, where they stay all day in the sun, indeed, wander and free. Wish I could be part of

your world. Okay, here I go. Round two. Fret one. Brian zo I guess there are so many lives I want to share with you. I will never be complete until I do, I'm not always on time. Please don't expect that from me. I will be late, but if you can just wait, I will make it eventually.

Me that is as it appears in the last five years. By Jason Robert Brown, that is correct. Woo, woo, yay. Okay, all right, two for two for two.

I'm ramping it up now. Okay, okay, I threw you a softball. Here we go. One man tightens and one man ratchets, and one man reaches to pull one car cord. Car keeps moving. Wheels roll forward. A car is ordered from Henry Ford.

That's a lie. It is. Lynn Aaron's Henry Ford, Ragtime. Car keeps moving in one direction, a Gen you flexion to Henry Ford.

Exactly, exactly. Phenomenal. I love the orchestration of that so good. And once I found out that she used to write for School of Rock. This song just opened up. Henry Ford, if you haven't heard it from Ragtime, it's a school of rock song in the best

way. Totally. Yeah, it's a great song.

Okay, let me go. I've given up hope that someone would come along, a fellow who ring the bell for once, not the gong, the kind who wins trophies, not another photos. Oh, that's a lie.

Won't settle for low fees. There you go. David Zo, one last hope from Hercules. From Hercules, I think

you mean honk Ulis, mean hunky de

my favorite line, it's an amazing line. I mean, there are so many good lines, and particularly in that song, like, I love that song,

so good. All right, are you ready for my final one? Yes, I'm totally ready. All right. Louise, always so pleasant. Louis is always so fair. Louis gives you a present. Louis generous. That's the thing I love about Louie. Louie is always there. Louise, thoughts are not hard to follow. Louise, art is not

hard to swallow. It was a line that was wrong in there. That's a lie. It is a lie. Louis always is present. Isn't that the line

Louis makes you feel it makes you feel present. I knew I changed it to gives you a present. I was hoping I could sneak that by. I knew

it wasn't right, but I could remember.

Well, yeah, I was hoping I could stump you with some

of that. You know, what you did? You did a lot better than we did on the first episode, because I think each of us only got one of the others questions. So when we're not good, we're good at asking the question, we're not good at answering it.

At least I did better than I thought I would do. You did, yeah, well, you'll have to come back so I can stump you. Yeah, please. It won't be with Sunday in the Park, though.

Nah. Okay, I'll go deeper.

It's got to be a show. I don't know as well. Which there are a few.

That's it. We've, we've gotten to the end of the game. We haven't stumped Brett. I win, yeah,

the first winner of lyric or lie. That's not Zoe or me. Yeah, congratulations,

taking into consideration, we ended up in a tie last time this, I mean this, you're the first winner ever, yes, so you're the godfather of this, of this podcast, in more ways than one,

for sure. Well, that's that's an honor. The

honor is all ours, and I think we really need to thank you for your time and for everything that you've done for us and in this show has been really a great pleasure to have you on and talk to

you. Really all entirely My pleasure. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you.

Brett, well, thank you everybody for listening to our show. Please make sure you subscribe to our feed. Everywhere you find your podcast and rate the show. It helps people find it, and

we'll be back with more making a musical in October, with all new episodes. So until then, find us on Instagram at making a musical pod, and you can follow me on instagram Tiktok and all the socials at Brian strometz music.

The music for this episode was written and produced and beautifully orchestrated by our one and only Brian strometz, well, thank you. I'm Zoe de York. I produced this episode and I edited it as well, and we'll catch you on the next one. Toodaloo.