I talk with job search expert Steve Dalton about his radical approach to landing your dream job-- WITHOUT applying online! As the author of 'The Job Closer' and 'The 2-Hour Job Search, Steve advocates for a networking-based strategy and explains the importance of asking for advice rather than referrals.

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⌚ TIMESTAMPS - How to Become a Data Analyst w/o Applying 1000 Jobs

00:00 - Introduction

02:18 - Steps to effective job searching

05:06 - The 2-Hour Job Search

10:54 - Asking strangers for advice vs. applying online

18:35 - Earned referrals vs. online referrals

20:24 - PremiumDataJobs.com and DataFairy.io

24:37 - Effective outreach messages

27:18 - The Role of AI in Job Searching

28:16 - The 6-Point Email

34:00 - Ed Bernier's "Three-Hour Rule"

38:57 - Advice for job seekers

🔗 CONNECT WITH STEVE

🤝 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daltonsteve/

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dalton_steve/

🎵 X: https://x.com/dalton_steve

💻 Website: https://2hourjobsearch.com/

🔗 CONNECT WITH AVERY

🎥 YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@averysmith

🤝 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/averyjsmith/

📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/datacareerjumpstart

🎵 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@verydata

💻 Website: https://www.datacareerjumpstart.com/

Mentioned in this episode:

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But you have an interview with every company you've ever wanted.

2

And the round one interview is this

find somebody in your job of choice at

3

that company and have them recommend

you to another person at that company.

4

That's it.

5

Avery Smith: This is Steve Dalton and

Steve is the author of the two hour

6

job search, and he's been helping

people find jobs for the last 20 years.

7

And in today's episode, he'll

explain his rather radical

8

philosophy on how to land a job.

9

Without even applying online.

10

So if you're sitting here and you're

listening and you're like, man, I feel

11

like applying online is pointless.

12

Steve Lokey kind of agrees with you.

13

Steve Dalton: There is no way to

systematically beat online job postings.

14

Avery Smith: Okay.

15

Okay.

16

But what should you do instead?

17

Steve Dalton: The data supports

networking is a better approach.

18

Networked referrals are 12

times more likely to get a job

19

than an online job applicant.

20

It makes sense to go after

the 12x versus the 1x.

21

Avery Smith: In this episode,

Steve and I will teach you exactly.

22

How you can ditch the black hole of

applying online and instead network your

23

way into landing your first data job.

24

So let's go ahead and

get into this episode.

25

So Steve, you are the author of

the two hour job search and the

26

job closer, both of which were

published by Penguin Random House.

27

So that's, that's a big deal.

28

You're kind of one of the only people

who has like, like a go to thought leader

29

in the industry for, for finding a job.

30

Can you just give us like a big picture

of like what your philosophy is?

31

And, you know, what you'd kind of

do if you needed to find a job.

32

Steve Dalton: Absolutely.

33

I think there is no shortage

of tips on job searching.

34

What I do is not tips.

35

I do instructions.

36

I was a former chemical engineer,

so I like process, but it was really

37

the 08 financial crisis when I

realized people were overwhelmed.

38

They were losing their

jobs, getting laid off.

39

When you're stressed and concerned

about your welfare, you don't have

40

the ability to curate tips into a

usable format, but you do have the

41

ability to follow instructions.

42

If you want someone to bake you a

cake, you don't hand them a list of

43

ingredients, you hand them a recipe.

44

And I figured that made more sense for job

searching than just giving people tips and

45

telling them to figure it out themselves.

46

Avery Smith: That makes a lot of

sense because B, when you're looking

47

for a job, you're usually like very

stressed and almost frantic, right?

48

It's, you're not really

thinking coherently, and so

49

it makes a lot more sense.

50

Okay, like this is step one,

this is step two, this is step

51

three, so on and so forth.

52

So I like that.

53

It makes a lot of sense.

54

Uh, what, what are those steps then?

55

Steve Dalton: Really, first step above

all else is find a set of instructions

56

that you trust and, and stick to it.

57

I mean, that is the key.

58

That is the answer to almost every

problem you will face in your life.

59

Like, find somebody who solved

it before, ask them how they

60

did it, follow that template.

61

But largely, when it comes specifically

to job searching, the first step is

62

basically, before we spend dozens of hours

looking, let's spend one hour deciding

63

where to even look in the first place.

64

That involves something

called the LAMP list.

65

Let's take the universe of all

possible employers, put them into

66

a logical subset, according to our

tastes, and then put them into a

67

logical order of attack based on most

promising odds to least promising odds.

68

Second step is once we've got our top

targets identified, how do we reach out?

69

to people at those organizations

most effectively to get them to

70

agree to interact with us in real

time so that we might be able

71

to convert them into a mentor.

72

Then step three is what do you say to

a person to convert a total stranger

73

into a potential mentor in a 30

minute conversation that really the

74

whole two hour job search process

is born out of the realization that

75

there is no data that supports that

online job postings are beatable that

76

customizing your resume in any way.

77

Increases your odds of

getting an interview.

78

There's literally no data that

demonstrates that, which is deeply

79

troubling because people have very

strong feelings on how important it is.

80

But there's no expected, like.

81

return on your investment, in my

opinion, that's deeply troubling.

82

So if there is no way to systematically

beat online job postings, that leaves

83

networking as your best result.

84

The data supports networking

as a better approach.

85

Networked referrals are 12

times more likely to get a job

86

than an online job applicant.

87

So it makes sense to go

after the 12x versus the 1x.

88

Avery Smith: I tried to

experiment with this.

89

And so I posted a job on LinkedIn.

90

I made it very clear, no one

should apply to this job.

91

I said, don't apply to this job.

92

This is just a test.

93

This is only a test, a closed test.

94

I wanted to test with some of my

accelerator students to see like which

95

one of them would rank the highest.

96

Well, I got about 550 applications

in about 24 hours before

97

LinkedIn shut down my experiment.

98

Um, so first off that goes to show

that people, even, even when you see

99

that there's like 500 applicants on

a job, like I can guarantee you that

100

90 percent of those people didn't

read the job description because

101

I said literally over and over and

over again, do not fuck this job.

102

This is a test.

103

But when I got the results,

it was really interesting.

104

It made no sense to me.

105

Like the, the top candidate through the

LinkedIn ATS was a terrible candidate.

106

And for the longest time, I was

like, I was going to make a YouTube

107

video about this and I still have it.

108

Cause I was like, I can't

explain what happened here.

109

Right?

110

Like my accelerator students

weren't ranking that high

111

in the LinkedIn algorithm.

112

I was like, what the heck is going on?

113

And then I talked to a recruiter

about it and they're like, yeah,

114

the, the LinkedIn ATS is very bad.

115

Like they hate it.

116

So it's like, it's like, how are you

even supposed to, anyways, how are

117

you supposed to play a game when like

there's no rules and it makes no sense.

118

And anyways, it's, it's terribly

hard with, with all this being said,

119

like the title of your book, the

two hour job search, is it possible?

120

To land a job in like two hours?

121

Steve Dalton: I imagine theoretically,

but the two hour job search that the two

122

hours in the title does not refer to the

amount of time it takes you to find a job.

123

Uh, it refers to the amount of

time that it takes to get as far

124

as you can on your own before you

simply need the help of others.

125

So put another way, if it were noon and my

boss were to tell me, Steve, you're fired.

126

Start looking for a job right now.

127

By 2 p.

128

m.

129

I'd have gotten as far as

I possibly could on my own.

130

At that point, I simply need other

people to make any further progress.

131

But in that two hours, I can set up a

completely strategic and science based job

132

search that maximizes the efficiency of an

inherently inefficient subject, which is.

133

Getting other people's help.

134

But, and from that point forward, I

can give exact instructions for what

135

to do if then it's a massive flowchart.

136

There's exact instructions for it if you

follow the first two hours according to

137

the recipe of the two hour job search.

138

Uh, but a lot of people will, who aren't

familiar with the book, will say that

139

you can get a job in two hours or that

you have to do two hours of work per day.

140

And it's neither of those things.

141

It's no more than a half an hour of work

in most days, and you have weekends off.

142

Uh, it's meant to be very finite,

because usually if you're job searching,

143

you have other responsibilities.

144

Maybe a, a, another full time job.

145

Maybe you're taking

care of family members.

146

Maybe you're in school full time.

147

Like, you just don't have two

hours a day to devote to this.

148

Getting the most bang for your buck.

149

That's really what the two hour job

search is about, and the two hours

150

has to do with how long it takes you

to get set up to succeed in a, a, a,

151

an advocacy based job search rather

than an online posting based one.

152

Avery Smith: That's so cool, because

I feel like most people would look

153

at job searching as like a very solo,

uh, and lonely activity, but you're

154

saying, hey, two hours on your own,

and then you got to go be social

155

in your job search, essentially.

156

Steve Dalton: Yeah, it's, it's off your

shoulders, like, people will ignore you,

157

it just happens, but in two hours, you

can get as far as you could possibly get.

158

So there's, there's some feeling

of success there, just knowing,

159

okay, I'm, I'm set up for success.

160

I'm going to have to ride some

statistical waves in the future of

161

people who choose not to respond to

me and some who do, or some who, uh,

162

pretend to be helpful at first, but

then prove themselves not to be helpful.

163

Like, but it only takes you two hours

to set yourself up for a much more

164

long game focused and increasingly

Successful job search compared to

165

that same amount of time spent online

applying to postings ad nauseum.

166

Avery Smith: I think that is so

important because I actually did a poll

167

on LinkedIn and I said, you know, how

do you, how do you search for jobs?

168

And 80 percent of people said that,

you know, they, they browse job

169

boards and they, they hit apply.

170

And then I did a poll the next day and I

said, like, how'd you get your last job?

171

And like 67 percent were either

like recruited or, or referred.

172

And so it's like, okay, we're doing

like the reverse 80, 20 roll where

173

we're spending 80 percent of our time on

something that doesn't even get, you know,

174

that gets literally like what I guess a

little bit more 30 percent of the results.

175

But what you're kind of saying is like

the whole applying online thing is broken.

176

And like, There's not even really a good

chance that's going to lead you anywhere.

177

And you're kind of saying

to ignore it, right?

178

Steve Dalton: I use it

very, very judiciously.

179

I did a LinkedIn post myself where I

asked readers to assume that online

180

job postings interview rate was 0%.

181

How would that change your search?

182

And then as the conversation and

comments kind of built out, I started

183

saying, well, it's pretty close to 0%.

184

So why aren't we doing

those things already?

185

Uh, because it's, it's kind of negligible.

186

My deepest concern with online job

postings and, and, and advice that guides

187

job seekers to investing in that more

effectively or more efficiently or, or

188

with more volume is that you don't learn

anything from applying to jobs online.

189

You don't get smarter.

190

You are no better a candidate

tomorrow than you are today.

191

If you, even if you spent eight hours

applying online today, but when you

192

reach out to smart people in your field

of choice and ask them how they got

193

so good at their jobs, you do become

a stronger candidate day to day.

194

You develop a better understanding.

195

You become more conversant in

topics you find interesting and

196

would like to pursue a career in.

197

So online job postings, there's

a time and a place for them.

198

Namely, for your top targets, when

someone tells you you need to apply,

199

or for your non top targets that

you're not networking with, go ahead

200

and apply when you have downtime.

201

Uh, but that's the big

benefit of having a LAMP list.

202

It tells you, here is your benchmark,

here are your top six that you

203

should be networking with because

they're that important to you.

204

And outside the top six,

do whatever you want.

205

It's, it's your spare time.

206

You could apply to job your bottom

34 or you could go see a movie

207

or have a meal with a loved one.

208

Things that will more predictably provide

you a positive return on investment.

209

Avery Smith: Interesting.

210

So I like what you said where you're

like, you could apply for jobs online.

211

You're not necessarily learning

anything, but if you're reaching out

212

to people, first off, you're meeting

people, you're expanding your network.

213

Second off, like you're going to

have a conversation with them.

214

You're probably going to learn

maybe what they do at their job.

215

You're going to maybe learn

how they got their job.

216

And so you can kind of start

to get smarter in this process.

217

Um, I can hear people in the YouTube

comments already, and you know, they're,

218

they're saying, okay, that's great.

219

But like when I reach out to

people, they don't respond.

220

So it's like, that doesn't

feel very fruitful.

221

Steve Dalton: No, uh, no, it doesn't at

all, but it's, it's rather unfortunate.

222

We as a society are so used to

Equating success to something very

223

close to 100 percent effectiveness.

224

If you take a step back and you

look at something like a baseball

225

player, the best baseball players

in the world get paid millions of

226

dollars to only fail 70 percent of

the time that they go on offense.

227

There aren't any good non sports

analogies like that people

228

can really relate to though.

229

Publishing, like academic

papers I've heard.

230

Not everybody does that.

231

Uh, I was a chemical

engineer, you were as well.

232

Getting a 30 percent was an A on

most of our tests back in the day.

233

Uh, so it felt great to get a 30%, but

most people don't see a success rate

234

of 20 percent and think that's good.

235

But it is absolutely good when you're

reaching out to strangers to ask them

236

for the gift of their time and knowledge.

237

If you're hearing back 20 or 30 percent

of the time, that's really good.

238

You will have to kiss a lot of

frogs to find your prince or

239

your princess in this process.

240

But the prince or princesses that you find

are so dramatically worth the investment.

241

You get smarter.

242

You have more eyes and ears

looking out on your behalf.

243

You have people empathizing with you.

244

You have mentors directing

you on what to do next.

245

So it's not all on your shoulders alone.

246

There are just so many advantages

to that, that approach.

247

Avery Smith: Uh, do you think that,

so I think the term that you use and

248

I'm, I'm like, I'm a data career coach.

249

I'm not really a, a formal career coach.

250

And, uh, I'm, I'm halfway in between like

landing a job and teaching data analysis.

251

So I think the, the, the, the term

that a lot of people use in your

252

space is like, is it the interview

rate or the applicant rate?

253

And that's like the total number

applications you send out before

254

you get an interview, right.

255

Or the percentage that you

get, is that the right term?

256

Steve Dalton: I.

257

Can see how that would be a term.

258

Yes.

259

Avery Smith: Okay.

260

Steve Dalton: I don't support it.

261

I think that is an outdated metric.

262

I don't think there's any correlation

between the number of applications

263

you submit and how successful

you are in your job search,

264

Avery Smith: which is, well,

that's exactly what I was

265

going to say is, is like.

266

People, people rather just

apply online because they feel

267

like it's more productive.

268

But if you sent, let's say, let's say

every time you apply for a job, you

269

cold apply for a job online, you send

also one of these like cold messages

270

for an informational interview.

271

Do you think the percentages would

be pretty comparable for like the

272

number of times you hear back?

273

Steve Dalton: No, I think you'll hear back

from strangers far more frequently than

274

you'll hear back from online postings.

275

I also did another post on LinkedIn

recently that challenged job

276

seekers to imagine if applying

each online job application, you.

277

Submitted cost you 1.

278

How would your job search change?

279

And then again, over the course of

the comments, people realized, Oh,

280

wait, the cost is more like 20 or 50.

281

If you factor in mental anguish,

effort, time, confidence, all the

282

sort of ancillary costs that go

along with applying to jobs online.

283

I think what keeps people away from

networking with strangers, and I think

284

it's comforting to think nobody will

respond because that absolves you from

285

any obligation to try it or to move.

286

deeply invest in it.

287

But I think what holds people back

from pursuing it with rigor is

288

that they've never been taught.

289

I think a lot of people feel some

embarrassment that they don't know

290

how to do this networking thing.

291

Everybody tells you to go network like

it's self evident, but nobody ever

292

actually teaches you how to do it.

293

And that's just cruel.

294

I think that's a failing of

higher education to be honest.

295

We It is a unique skill.

296

I think if you ask a stranger on the

street, if they're good at networking

297

people, this surprises me, people often

say, yeah, I'm good at networking.

298

And I'm like, that doesn't match

what my students say in my office.

299

Tell me more.

300

And they'll say, well, never.

301

I'm placed on a new team

at work or at school.

302

I get along with my teammates

and some of them become friends.

303

And I tell them, okay,

that's reactive networking,

304

otherwise known as cooperation.

305

We learn that naturally as

we age to survive proactive

306

networking is what I teach.

307

How do you reach out to a stranger

who's not expecting to hear from you

308

or have a relationship with you back?

309

That's a total unique skill set.

310

You would never blame an adult

who doesn't know how to swim if

311

they've never been trained to swim.

312

Or speak a foreign language

if they've never been trained

313

to speak a foreign language.

314

Why are we so quick to blame people who

don't know how to proactively network

315

when nobody has been trained for this?

316

The good news is it's a skill

you can learn and I have exact

317

instructions for how to do it.

318

Avery Smith: It's that's very fascinating.

319

Um, remind me, do you still

work at Duke or not anymore?

320

Steve Dalton: Not anymore.

321

After 17 wonderful years, I left in 2022.

322

Avery Smith: Okay, good.

323

That means I can, I can talk

about, uh, colleges a little

324

bit more, uh, freely here.

325

Um, my point here is, yeah,

you're a hundred percent right.

326

That if, if we, if we go back and we talk

about like, okay, most people are landing

327

their jobs for being recruited or referred

and we go to college to get a job.

328

Like, why is that such a, like ancillary?

329

If it even exists in college, right?

330

Like I went to the university of Utah,

there is career services there, but

331

like, I don't, I hardly ever went.

332

And maybe when I went, I didn't

really find it all that useful.

333

I do think if I went to Duke and I had,

you know, you as a career resource,

334

that would be really helpful, but it

is, it is silly to me that like, if

335

like networking is what gets you jobs.

336

Why do we ignore it so

much in higher education?

337

Steve Dalton: Considering how many

classes we are required to take as

338

core curriculum, I'm still stunned

that the ability to pay off our

339

debts and provide for our loved

ones is not one of those classes.

340

To me, this is a life skill.

341

I think it's, it's, It's just, it's

a moral and ethical failing on the

342

part of higher ed to not ensure

students graduate with these, with

343

that skill, knowing how much money

they've invested in the institution.

344

I feel like genuine frustration and

anger that it doesn't get more attention.

345

I think part of the reason

is that when you're a hammer,

346

everything looks like a nail.

347

Most universities are run by tenure

track faculty whose job searches are

348

nothing like their students job searches.

349

It's a whole parallel system, but they

don't have a lot of understanding for

350

how that process works when there's not

perfect infrastructure provided for you.

351

And a fleet of recruiters helping you

move from one organization to another.

352

So to me, it's, it's, uh, it's

a, it's a crisis of leadership.

353

I do think schools who get this

right faster will enjoy an advantage

354

in the marketplace, but we're

not where we need to be on this.

355

Avery Smith: If I was cynical, I would

say that, uh, colleges have no true

356

incentive to get you a job as they

just want you to go to more school

357

as, as a solution, but, but I don't

think that's actually how it is.

358

But Maybe.

359

I don't know.

360

Okay.

361

With, with that, uh, I would like to trade

my political science one on one for a

362

networking class taught by Steve Dalton,

but I think I'm a little bit too late.

363

Um, okay, let's, let's give them, and

I know in your books that you go into

364

like a masterclass of how to actually

do these, these reach outs and you

365

know what to say, but in short, like

if I have never sent a cold message

366

before in my life, if I've never done

like an informational interview, um,

367

if I've never, maybe I've never even

talked to a stranger before, like.

368

What do I do?

369

Steve Dalton: Most important thing you

can do first for this process is forget

370

you ever heard the phrase sell yourself.

371

Uh, it is so damaging.

372

It hurts people.

373

It's easy for career coaches

to tell you to do it.

374

And it's so counterproductive

and outdated.

375

When we sense sales pitches coming our

way, our guards go up, but success in the

376

modern job search means bringing strangers

guards down systematically over time.

377

Hey stranger, you don't know me,

but here's 10 reasons why I'm

378

awesome is not a great way to reach

out to someone who didn't ask for

379

that email in the first place.

380

There's a great body of

research on this topic.

381

It's called switching from

social norms to market norms.

382

Where if you offer, if you ask a

stranger to help you move a couch out

383

of a moving van, this is an experiment

by Dan O'Reilly that he talks through

384

and, and predictably irrational.

385

You are just as likely to get a stranger's

help if you offer 0 than if you offer 50.

386

But if you offer 5,

you're far less likely.

387

Then either of the other two

scenarios and he calls the switching

388

from social norms to market norms.

389

When you ask for a favor, you are

successful a fraction of the time.

390

Uh, as soon as you offer compensation,

it's not a good deed plus 5.

391

That's not what motivates

someone to do it.

392

The good deed goes out the window and

it's purely an hourly wage calculation.

393

The people who help you find jobs are not

going to get promoted for helping you.

394

The stock price isn't going to

shoot up the day that you start.

395

The reason they're helping you is

out of the goodness of their heart.

396

And some people are wired that way.

397

We just need to find those people.

398

It is so much easier to ask a stranger for

the gift of their time and knowledge in

399

an outreach email than to sell yourself.

400

So not only is the email easier to

write, it's more successful and it

401

attracts the right kind of Collaborator.

402

Uh, so that's really the first step.

403

Forget, sell yourself,

forget you ever heard it.

404

I wish that would die a fiery

death, but people keep repeating

405

it, but learn to ask for favors

and again, it's a learnable skill.

406

You've just never been

taught how to do it.

407

Avery Smith: Very, very interesting.

408

Um, I want to sit here for a, for a second

here because I almost want to push back

409

a little bit because there are some.

410

I think many companies have like an

employee referral program, right?

411

Where, where if you help

place an employee, um, you

412

might make like 500 bucks.

413

I mean, that is somewhat

of an incentive, correct?

414

Don't you think?

415

Steve Dalton: Uh, it is, again,

it's another sort of dated type of

416

infrastructure because I think when

people are trying to game that system as

417

an employee, you're trying to minimize

your investment in a, uh, a job seeker.

418

So job seeker reaches out.

419

The person says, I don't have

time to talk, but here, use this

420

link to apply to your job online.

421

Uh, because everybody kind of doesn't

understand how powerful referrals are.

422

They think that's a referral, and it is,

but the problem is the word referral.

423

The referral includes things like that,

where there's no relationship form.

424

Uh, it's, I don't have time to talk.

425

Apply through this link, but I

call that an online referral.

426

Online referrals are points of parity.

427

They're easy to get, so

you get what you pay for.

428

Contrast those.

429

You have other people who will

complain that referrals are, are,

430

they just, uh, they're nepotistic.

431

They help the rich get richer.

432

Uh, and I, I agree it, some

referrals are like that.

433

You, your, your dad goes to the

same country club as the CEO.

434

That's also called a referral, but

a very different kind of referral

435

than just put my name down on your

application or apply through this link.

436

I call those birthright referrals.

437

Yeah, there are no skill on your own.

438

Like you just were born to the

right family at the right time.

439

So congratulations.

440

Uh, and some people have these,

they'd be fools not to use them.

441

But most of us don't have those.

442

So what is our option that I

call those earned referrals?

443

Do you have the ability to take a stranger

at an organization you'd like to work

444

for and turn them into an advocate?

445

That is a real skill that will be

useful in any job at any company.

446

So you're actually demonstrating

in the way that you approach

447

that you have valuable skills

that the company will will value.

448

But ultimately, like, don't equate

online referrals with earned referrals.

449

Earned referrals provide

lasting benefit and knowledge.

450

Online referrals provide about what

you'd get from not having an online

451

referral, which is basically nothing.

452

Avery Smith: All right, if you've

enjoyed this episode so far and you're

453

like, Yes, networking is the way.

454

I want to be networking to

land my first day at a job.

455

Then you're going to absolutely

love these two things that I've

456

built from absolute scratch.

457

They pair really well together and

this is like basically a cheat code.

458

To actually doing what we've been

talking about in this episode.

459

The first one is premium data jobs.

460

com.

461

This is my premium data job board.

462

It costs money.

463

It's not free, but it's going to save

you so many hours a week in a month.

464

It's totally worth it.

465

So it's just a normal job board,

but the difference is here that

466

every job that you look at here will

have a recruiter, a hiring manager.

467

An individual contributor

that you can reach out to.

468

So like, for instance, this

data analyst job is pretty cool.

469

If you're like a physical therapist,

like this would be really relevant

470

to you because it's a data analyst

at a physical therapy company.

471

Once again, just kind of looks like

a normal job description, right?

472

But when you click apply now, it's

going to take you to a LinkedIn post

473

where like the hiring manager, the

recruiter, or someone has posted this job.

474

Um, and we tried to do it really quickly.

475

So you can see that this was posted.

476

This was posted three days ago and we,

this was posted online three days ago.

477

So we were one of the first people

to help you apply to this job.

478

And what the cool part here, here

is you can actually open up this

479

person's LinkedIn profile and

actually talk to this person, right?

480

We can send a message to them.

481

In this episode, we've talked about

who to reach out to and what to say.

482

And so when you're just getting

started, what I highly recommend

483

is checking out DataFerry.

484

DataFerry, like, like a

little magical nymph, right?

485

Has this really cool tool.

486

I built DataFerry, uh, as well.

487

You can go to the cold message composer

down here, and this is actually using

488

AI and R framework in the background.

489

So it's not just chat GPT.

490

It's Chachapiti plus all of our knowledge

and all of my frameworks on sending

491

cold messages and select, you know, who

you're actually, you know, sending it to.

492

So in this case, a hiring manager, and

that's going to ask you some questions.

493

It's going to ask you to put in

their, their LinkedIn profile so

494

that we can get to know this person.

495

And it's giving the AI bot a

lot of context on who you're

496

messaging and why you're messaging.

497

And the combination of premium

data jobs and DataFerry is honestly

498

really deadly in your job search.

499

So you can actually get started

for free with both of these.

500

The first one is going

to be premium data jobs.

501

com.

502

The second one is going to be data ferry.

503

io.

504

Go check these out and at least

get a feel for how you could

505

possibly do this on your own.

506

Let's get back into the episode.

507

I like that what you said earlier

that some people are going to be

508

intrinsically motivated and we want

to just kind of find those people.

509

Um, I've definitely seen that in, in my

students and when I was at Exxon mobile.

510

And, uh, I was posting a lot of LinkedIn.

511

I was growing a ton on

LinkedIn at the time.

512

People would reach out all the time.

513

Hey, can you help me

get a job at ExxonMobil?

514

And some of those people

were from like India.

515

And I was like, sorry, I don't have

a whole lot in common with you.

516

I don't even know what it's like.

517

I haven't been to India.

518

I haven't, I haven't gone from India to

the U S to work at an American company.

519

Like, I don't really know

a whole lot about that.

520

And.

521

For those people, I was one, to

be honest, less motivated to help

522

because I couldn't relate as much.

523

But if someone at the time when

I was at ExxonMobil, Exxon is

524

really about like career hires.

525

So they're very, they hired to retire.

526

They're like what they say, right?

527

So they're very like, they're

in the college game quite a bit.

528

And they don't recruit out of the

University of Utah, which is where I went.

529

And because of that, there's only,

I was one of three people to, from

530

my school to work at Exxon Mobile.

531

And I was, I was really proud of that.

532

Right.

533

Cause that's like, there's

not a whole lot of us there.

534

So if someone from the University of

Utah reached out to me, it was like,

535

Hey, how do I work for Exxon Mobile?

536

I was much more intrinsically

motivated to help them because

537

I was like, yeah, go you.

538

It's like, I want a fourth person here.

539

Let's, I know the exact

journey that I did.

540

That'll be really relatable to you.

541

So like, here's what I did.

542

Let's get on a phone call.

543

Go talk to this person.

544

Go talk to that person.

545

And like, It's the same ask, but to

be perfectly frank, I was so much more

546

motivated to help another, another ute.

547

I mean, it didn't have to be, you

know, it could have been anything.

548

It could have been someone that

goes to the same church as me.

549

It could have been, you know, someone

that likes soccer, like whatever.

550

They related to me in some way.

551

All of a sudden I was like,

Oh, I see myself in you.

552

And I, I, my experience is kind

of what your experience might be.

553

So I have a lot more to offer and

I'm also more motivated to help.

554

Does that, does that make sense?

555

Is that kind of what you're saying?

556

Steve Dalton: Yes and no.

557

Commonality is great when you

have it, but a lot of us don't

558

have commonality with people.

559

Like if we're targeting a small

organization, they don't, a

560

person can go to the same school.

561

I don't have anything in common with them.

562

What, what then do I just have to resign

myself to never being employed again?

563

I would say the better way to write

that outreach email is not can you

564

help me get a job at ExxonMobil?

565

It's hey, do you have some time

to talk about your experience

566

in data science at ExxonMobil?

567

Your, your insights be greatly appreciated

because I'm trying to learn more about Uh,

568

data science in the oil and gas sector.

569

Okay, now I'm not asking you for a job.

570

I'm asking you how you got so

smart at your job, which is a

571

much more fun conversation to

take up, to take someone up on.

572

I mean, obviously, you'd rather that

person have gone to your same school so

573

you can talk about the old times and life

on campus, but barring that, I think,

574

and I can't blame the students that

were reaching out to you to ask, ask you

575

point blank and, and starting from zero,

like, can you help me get a job at your

576

organization despite not knowing me?

577

Because that, that

involves risk on your part.

578

That involves you spending social capital

on someone that you can't vouch for.

579

Scary.

580

Which is dangerous.

581

So, the better way, I can't fault people

for doing that because again, they've

582

never been taught how to do this.

583

And that is on higher ed.

584

That is not on job seekers

making a, a perfectly reasonable

585

assumption that I should.

586

Be direct.

587

I should tell people what I want.

588

I should ask for the

assistance I'm seeking.

589

Uh, but it's not how you get a stranger

to, to lower their guard enough to,

590

to invest 30 minutes in you and see if

you're someone they want to advocate for.

591

Avery Smith: That makes

a lot of, a lot of sense.

592

It reminded me, we, we had a, a,

another career coach on, Daniel Botero.

593

And one time he told me, um, if you

ask for a referral, you get advice.

594

If you ask for advice, you get a referral.

595

Steve Dalton: I, I had a salesperson

give me their variant of this, which

596

is if you ask for time, you get money.

597

If you ask for money, you get time.

598

Avery Smith: Yeah.

599

Steve Dalton: Um, so, uh, a, a,

a development person actually

600

trying to raise funds for,

for universities and stuff.

601

Uh, same thing's true.

602

I, I, it's a weird quirk

of American culture.

603

We're known the world around for being

very blunt and direct, but we have a

604

couple of weird exceptions to that.

605

Negative feedback.

606

We don't we're not very direct.

607

We like the sandwich.

608

Here's something nice.

609

Here's why we're having the meeting.

610

But here's another nice thing.

611

And we're really indirect about job

searching and coming from outside the U.

612

S.

613

I don't know how you're supposed

to know that about the U.

614

S.

615

That we have these weird blind spots or

exceptions to always being pretty direct,

616

which The more heterogeneous your society

is, the more you have to like put things

617

in words because you can't rely on a

pause or eye contact to convey meaning.

618

Same way.

619

People just, people need to be taught

these things and nobody's teaching

620

it and that really frustrates me.

621

Which is why I wrote, I don't actually

love writing, but I hated the idea

622

that only students that were wealthy

enough to afford business school

623

and then happened to choose Duke

could access this methodology that I

624

developed to help people find jobs.

625

So I wanted to put it in the hands

of anyone at the library card.

626

Avery Smith: Well, we

appreciate you doing that.

627

We appreciate both those books

and we appreciate you being here,

628

giving us a glimpse into it.

629

When people are starting to write

these like messages and cold messages,

630

do you think it's okay for them

to utilize things like ChatGPT?

631

Steve Dalton: I would if

ChatGPT were good at it.

632

But ChatGPT is often

garbage in, garbage out.

633

People think to use ChatGPT on

things it's not great at in the

634

job search, like cover letters.

635

Uh, outreach messages on the problem.

636

There is cover letters.

637

It learns on what's on the Internet.

638

That's how chat GPT improves

outreach messages that learns

639

from what's on the Internet.

640

And those messages on the Internet

are very market norm based.

641

Like here's all the value that I

would bring to your organization.

642

Here's why you should take

me seriously as a candidate.

643

So it's really not great at the things

that you think it should be good at.

644

It's great at other things in the

job search, figuring out what you

645

wanna do with your life, for example.

646

It's surprisingly good at that.

647

It's great at helping you understand

what projects you would do if you

648

actually were hired to do a company.

649

It's great for helping you brainstorm

companies that you'd like to work

650

for in the first place, but it

is not great at writing messages.

651

Uh, so the, I teach something

called the six point email.

652

In the two hour job search.

653

It's under.

654

75 words long.

655

The body of the email

is about 46 words long.

656

This is not a long email

and it's pretty formulaic.

657

It's it's basically a fill in the blank

exercise, but it's been evolved over tens

658

of thousands of iterations of practice

and and modification and a B testing.

659

If you will, that is more

effective at getting in touch

660

with that target audience who is

Intrinsically motivated to be helpful.

661

Chat GPT is not thinking in terms

of who is my target audience?

662

Oh, it's people who are

intrinsically helpful.

663

What's the best way to

get in touch with them?

664

Oh, it's to ask them for the gift

of their time and knowledge using

665

social norms rather than market norms.

666

So it doesn't have the whole

philosophy of the two hour job search.

667

That's why the two hour job search has

a lot of philosophy and science in it to

668

demonstrate here's why this makes sense.

669

Here's the, the research backing this

approach as being a more fruitful.

670

line of investigation than sell

yourself and spamming lots of people.

671

Avery Smith: I think that's true for

everything you could almost do in

672

ChatGPT is like, it's okay at whatever

task you give it, um, but it's probably

673

never going to be a proven framework.

674

And maybe when you combine it with

like a proven framework and, and some

675

of the creativity to, to kind of get

you started like a warm start, I think

676

that, that can be, that can be powerful.

677

But obviously like the, the most

successful cold messages probably

678

are plastered all over the internet.

679

They happened in text messages

and emails and LinkedIn messages.

680

So chat GPT won't have access to, to that.

681

What other, what other like tech

can you use in your job search?

682

There's.

683

There's a, I don't know if you've seen,

um, I just have one of my students

684

in the accelerator ask about it.

685

I can't remember the product name.

686

We don't give them the plug, but

like some, some sort of like AI tool

687

that like goes out there and applies

to like millions of jobs for you.

688

What, what, what like technology

can job seekers use that you

689

think might have some use?

690

Steve Dalton: Honestly, I think

it's, I would put it this way.

691

Online job postings used to

work back in the era of monster.

692

com circa 2000.

693

Online job postings were great.

694

And then they started becoming less great

as more people found out about them.

695

And then AI came on the scene and

companies were using AI to weed out

696

candidates and candidates started

using AI to apply to more jobs.

697

So with more applications and more AI

weeding you out using rules that you

698

can't understand from the outside,

I would argue that the success rate

699

on online job postings has gotten

worse over the last few years.

700

There's just more applications out there.

701

So by definition, like, okay, if,

so if online job postings continue

702

to get worse, and then we have ghost

jobs on top of that, an estimate

703

saying 20 percent of those jobs

have no intention of being filled.

704

A lot of those postings have already

have someone earmarked for that position.

705

So like if online job postings get

worse, the alternatives have to

706

become more attractive in comparison,

even if they don't get better.

707

And that's how I feel about networking.

708

Like, yes, you can find bots

that will apply to many jobs

709

that you may or may not want.

710

But wouldn't you prefer a job that

you want to a job that you don't want?

711

And wouldn't you prefer to be

smarter tomorrow than you are today?

712

All, like, mass applying just

doesn't pass the smell test.

713

If ever, if it works,

everybody would do it.

714

And if everybody did it,

it would stop working.

715

So it's not a protectable advantage.

716

What is?

717

Important right now is

showing that you have that.

718

It feels like we're

going back to the future.

719

Like networking was never this

important for our parents because they

720

had some geographical protections.

721

They would look up for jobs in

the one ads of the newspaper

722

back when we had newspapers.

723

So networking is more important

now than it's ever been before.

724

It's I call it a universal round one.

725

You have an interview with

every company you've ever

726

wanted, and they all have this.

727

They've all agreed to standardize

the round one interview and

728

the round one interview.

729

There's no time limit

and it's already started.

730

So you can start whenever you want.

731

The round one interview is this,

find somebody in your job of choice

732

at that company and have them

recommend you to another person

733

in that function at that company.

734

That's it.

735

If you do that, you've got a, you've

got a first round interview the

736

next time they have an opening.

737

And I think people are just like,

Oh, that sounds so hard, but is it?

738

I mean, a, you haven't learned it.

739

So assuming you've learned it.

740

Is reaching out to strangers and asking

them how they got so good at their job

741

harder than the soul crushing work of

applying to online job postings over

742

and over or constantly trolling to see

if there are new postings that have

743

gone up in the last 24 hours because

you read somewhere at one time that

744

applying in the first hour makes you

a more attractive candidate for some

745

reason, is that really who companies want?

746

Are the person who's living to see that

the latest job posting in the last hour?

747

There's, there's lots

of problems with it, so.

748

In terms of technology that

I recommend, I love AI.

749

I think it has its place in the

job search, but you have to be

750

judicious with where you use it.

751

I really like Crunchbase for

helping you brainstorm companies.

752

I love Hunter.

753

io for helping you identify email contact

information for people at companies.

754

But I really like the technology

that I think is most important is.

755

Technology in the knowledge sense.

756

It's learning how to reach out to

strangers and ask for the gift of

757

their time and knowledge effectively.

758

Avery Smith: I read a tweet recently

that said in the future, we might

759

pay for AI less experiences.

760

Like we might, we might like pay a

premium for like, no, this has no AI.

761

This is just human to human interaction.

762

So I think that that definitely you, you

can really stand out if you're able to.

763

To make that human connection.

764

I want to go to, to you talking about

like, when you do these cold applications,

765

it's a little bit like, like a black box.

766

Uh, you don't really know a hundred

percent why if you ever get an

767

interview, why, and when you get

rejected, you certainly don't

768

really know why you get rejected.

769

That's, that's really frustrating because

if you're putting hundreds of applications

770

out there and you're spending hundreds

of hours, like into the system where

771

the game is unknown, there's no rules

to the game, uh, or, or, or maybe there

772

are, but, but you can't know them.

773

That's not really fun.

774

Um, and that kind of leads you to kind of.

775

Kind of your, your resume

role, I guess it's, it's Ed's.

776

I can't remember who Ed is, but

this is Ed's three hour resume role.

777

You want to explain what that is?

778

Steve Dalton: Sure.

779

Ed was my supervisor, uh, my last

supervisor when I worked at the career

780

center at the business school at Duke.

781

And he had this great

phrase that I loved it.

782

He said to whenever we'd have a new

cohort of students, he said, assume that

783

your job search will take you 100 hours.

784

I want you spending no more than

three of them on your resume.

785

And I just, I love how succinct

and how proportional that makes

786

people see the, the role of the

resume and in a greater job search.

787

Again, it's free.

788

It is free for every career coach out

there to say something like you need

789

to customize your resume for online

app, any, every online application.

790

I see that regularly.

791

I, what I don't see is any data that

supports that that actually works.

792

So the upside is completely unknown and

uncertain, but the downside is certain.

793

That takes you time and effort to

customize every resume for every

794

online application, even when you

know the online application response

795

rate is pretty close to zero.

796

So to me, that is malpractice.

797

Uh, if there's no proof that it works,

but the costs are certain, like, I

798

don't know how you can sleep at night

telling people that they should do that.

799

Ed's three hour rule just

provides some context.

800

That 97 hours, a lot of people will brag

about how long they spent on the resume.

801

The problem is like nobody agrees

on what a perfect resume looks like.

802

What we do agree on is what a

good enough resume looks like.

803

The 80 percent resume.

804

We kind of agree on that.

805

It's error free that the

formatting all lines up.

806

It's easy to read.

807

There's some white space.

808

I understand clearly what

the flow of your career was.

809

But once you get to a point where feedback

is subjective rather than objective,

810

meaning it's a matter of opinion, not

a matter of fact, like that margin is

811

clearly misaligned versus I think you

should move up your action verbs here.

812

Like then we're getting to a

point where you are exerting

813

effort with no certain upside.

814

And that's not a good value proposition.

815

I just, it breaks my heart when I hear

people work with professional resume

816

reviewer, resume coaches, and they get

their resume, what they think is perfect.

817

And they think that until they show

it to literally anyone else, because

818

everyone's an expert on resumes.

819

And then they feel like, Oh, did

I just waste a bunch of money?

820

It's really heartbreaking to hear that.

821

My recommendation is do

your best with your resume.

822

Don't spend more than three hours on it.

823

Um, I talk about this in my

second book, the job closer.

824

How do you get it done in three hours?

825

There it's pretty easy.

826

Actually, most people, when they

stress out about their resumes,

827

they're not They're not stressed

about what actually matters.

828

What I mean by that, there was a study

by the ladders done a number of years

829

ago that showed that 80 percent of, uh,

human resume reviewers attention was on

830

the following items, the companies you

worked for your job titles, your dates

831

of employment, and your school attended.

832

What all those things have in

common, they are the things that

833

you can't change on your resume.

834

They are objective info.

835

What we stress about is not the

objective info, it's the bullet points.

836

And the bullet points in

total, we're getting 1.

837

2 seconds, compared to 4.

838

8 seconds for all of the objective data.

839

So nobody's reading it.

840

And if they are reading it, they

already like you, which means you've

841

done some networking or have a

referral of some sort, which is good.

842

Uh, so because there's just no

positive return on investment of

843

hours and hours of effort, I recommend

doing your best on your resume.

844

I frankly recommend brainstorming

your interview stories first and then

845

using those to populate your resume.

846

Chat GPT is great at condensing your

interview stories down to bullet points.

847

Um, that's one of its strengths.

848

Uh, so, and that way you don't have to

do double work when it's time to prep

849

for interviews, but that's not how most

people are taught to do a job search.

850

It's always resume first, uh, cover letter

first, then we'll practice interview

851

skills once you start getting interviews.

852

But I think the three hour rule is just a

nice way to remind yourself, do your best.

853

What they're, what they care about

are the things that you can't change,

854

not the things that you can change.

855

So just do your best on the

things you can change, and you'll

856

get better at it over time.

857

Avery Smith: That's really cool.

858

Um, yeah, really neat that like Cause,

cause you're right, if you give your

859

resume to literally any people, like

someone's going to nitpick something

860

and say, you should change it.

861

So there obviously is no perfect resume

and it's maybe more, maybe at the

862

beginning, there's a lot of science to it.

863

Like you need to try

to get it past the ATS.

864

You need it to make sense.

865

You don't want to have misspellings, but

like you said, maybe once it hits maybe

866

like that 70, 80 percent mark, it becomes

more of an art, uh, than the science.

867

Steve Dalton: It's

attempting diversion, though.

868

It's the devil you know.

869

And I think the same goes

for online job postings.

870

There's some comfort in knowing that

it's going to ask you to upload your

871

resume and then type in all the stuff

that wasn't in your resume anyway.

872

Like, you know that you know the drill.

873

Asking strangers for the gift of their

time, you don't know that drill and it's

874

scary, but it's Just a more human and

humane way to go about job searching that

875

makes you a stronger candidate over time.

876

But that time has to come from somewhere.

877

So you can't afford to spend 50 hours

on a resume, even if it were perfect

878

and everyone agreed it was perfect.

879

You still need people to lay eyes on it.

880

And online job postings don't do that.

881

That gets a computer to lay eyes on it.

882

And you don't know like how

flawed the computer algorithm is.

883

A lot of that.

884

Data on early AI computer algorithms

from ATS systems show they were

885

racist or sexist or like biased in

ways that we couldn't even predict.

886

So like, yeah, don't wear

yourself out on your resume.

887

There are bigger fish to fry, but

it does involve moving away from the

888

devil, you know, to one you don't know.

889

Avery Smith: Okay, Steve, well, you've

given us a complete masterclass of how

890

we can network as aspiring data analysts.

891

What is your last bit of advice

that you'd give to, you know, anyone

892

who's in the job search right now?

893

Steve Dalton: Gosh, just the best piece

of advice I ever got from my favorite

894

boss in strategy consulting was Steve,

at some point in your career, you'll

895

be asked to build a rocket ship.

896

You won't know how to build a rocket

ship, but step one is always the same.

897

Find someone who's built a rocket ship

before and ask them how they did it.

898

If you're a job seeker, don't put

this on yourself to figure out.

899

I've done thousands of job searches.

900

You've done one, two, five, maybe even

10, but I'm in a much better position

901

to curate a set of instructions

from all of the intellectual capital

902

that's out there than you are.

903

Why should you be expected to do that?

904

Isn't that my job?

905

Isn't that the job of

people in my position?

906

So don't blame yourself for not knowing

how to do something you've never been

907

trained to do, but do seek out a set

of instructions that helps you get it

908

done more effectively and, and humanely.

909

Uh, that, that's the, the single

best piece of advice I could give.

910

Avery Smith: I love it.

911

Steve, thanks so much for joining us.

912

We'll have all of Steve's links in the

show notes down below, including both of

913

his books, uh, which are very awesome.

914

If you couldn't already tell by this,

this episode, uh, as well as some

915

of his LinkedIn and other resources.

916

Yes.

917

Steve, thanks so much for being with us.

918

Steve Dalton: My pleasure.