In this powerful Thanksgiving episode, host Justin Siems sits down with A320 Captain Jake Tishman to discuss one of the most inspiring aviation journeys you'll hear. Jake shares his decade-long battle with an autoimmune disease that threatened to derail his dream of becoming an airline pilot at every turn—from getting medically disqualified from the Naval Academy to facing multiple surgeries and hospital stays while trying to complete his flight training.

Despite the setbacks, Jake persevered through:

• Multiple hospitalizations during college and flight training
• Completing all his ratings from instrument through CFI/CFII in just 5.5 months
• Taking medical leave from his first airline job
• Navigating the corporate aviation world when airlines rejected his applications
• Finally landing at his current carrier after nearly giving up

This episode goes beyond the typical aviation career story to explore resilience, gratitude, and finding perspective through adversity. Jake's candid discussion about learning to appreciate the smallest victories—even just having the energy to get out of the car—offers valuable lessons for anyone facing challenges in their career or life.

Whether you're a student pilot facing obstacles, an instructor dealing with setbacks, or an airline pilot who rushed through training, Jake's story reminds us all to appreciate where we are and recognize that our unique paths shape who we become.

Plus, there's plenty of good-natured ribbing about Ohio State vs. Florida State football, corporate aviation perks, and the reality of chasing airline seniority numbers.

Episode 345 of the pilot to Pilot Podcast takes off now.

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Hi, my name is Jake Tishman.

I fly an A320 captain with a major ultra low cost carrier, AV Nation.

What is going on?

And welcome back to the Pilot to Pilot podcast.

My name is Justin Seams, and I am your host.

Today's episode is an exciting one.

It is with my good friend Jake Tishman.

If you listen to this episode, you're going to see or hear a lot of back and forth.

We do like to give each other a hard time.

One person is a Florida State fan.

I do apologize if you hear.

If you are also a Florida State fan and hear us talk about how bad Florida State this year, because it's just the truth and we want to tell the truth.

We do not want to lie to you.

Florida State is not.

But anyways, we get back to the podcast.

Get back to aviation.

Jake has a great story.

Jake has overcome a lot to get to where he is today.

A lot of health issues have gone on and he goes into it.

He talks about how that's affected him and how that's been able to drive him to continue to want to do this dream that he's had since he was a little kid.

So, AV Nation, I hope you enjoy this podcast.

And if you do, make sure you follow Jake on Instagram.

He's a great follow there as well.

And.

And I hope that you get something from this episode, because I did by talking to him and I learned a decent amount about Jake and I think that what he has done and what he's overcome has been pretty spectacular.

So, Jake, shout out to you, dude, you're doing awesome and it's been awesome to follow your journey.

AV Nation, hope you enjoy this podcast.

Without any further ado, here's Jake Tishman.

Jake, what's going on, man?

Welcome to the podcast.

Hi, my name.

Am I doing that again?

No.

Oh, try one more time.

We're keeping it, man.

We're rolling, dude.

Major ultra lowcost carrier.

Jake Tishman.

What's going on, dude?

Welcome to the pilot to Pilot podcast.

We weren't supposed to keep that part of it, but.

But we did.

It was funny.

I appreciate it, Justin.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, man.

Probably a lot of jokes in this one.

A lot of going back and forth.

Just kind of our nature of our relationship from text and like we talked about earlier, it's the first time we've ever even really like, seen each other, honestly, other than looking at an Instagram post or an Instagram video.

Yeah, yeah, but we.

We've talked on the phone a couple of times, but it's about time we've taken our.

To the next level.

Yeah, unfortunately, you know when you run out of people in interview and everyone else says no, there's always Jake.

Yeah.

People have to know like what bottom of the barrel you are choosing from for your podcast.

Just exactly, exactly.

Major, ultra low cost carrier legacy.

We're not going to let go.

But before we move on, we gotta call out your overrated Ohio State Buckeyes.

Yeah, well, you're gonna get used to them winning a couple national championships for the next couple years because I don't see that train stopping anytime soon.

I don't know.

I don't know about that.

We'll see the greatest show on turf.

Ohio State Buckeyes.

Let's go.

Anyways, we are not here to talk about Ohio State or a sorry excuse for football team in Tallahassee, which is an interesting place.

Right.

Stand down.

Yeah.

The first question I ask everyone is, is pretty general.

It's.

It's.

Why did you even want to become a pilot in the.

I did not have anything else I wanted to do.

Maybe driving past the fire station when I was a kid, I wanted to be a firefighter for like five weeks.

Yeah.

I have not wanted to do anything else.

My parents will talk about me not wanting to do anything else.

I flew was one of those nerds playing flight sim and it was just a matter of time before it, you know, happened in real life.

So.

So when you say it's kind of all you wanted to do and your parents would say that, like, I mean, is this like three years old?

You looked up like airplane.

Is this like, oh, I watch Top Gun when I was 10.

Or kind of talk about the inspiration.

There, you know, when you're in like elementary school and kindergarten, first grade and all the kids are just trying to find ways to connect with you.

They're like, if you could be any animal, if you have a cheetah, lion, like I always wanted to be a bird.

This is like the next best thing to do in that.

And yeah, I've.

Yeah.

I have not wanted to do anything else.

You'll find me in pictures and flight decks as a child.

None of my parents, none.

I have four if you count the step parents.

None of them are in aviation.

None of them fly.

None of them have any idea what I do on a day to day stuff besides what I tell them.

Yeah, it wasn't a, it wasn't a movie.

It was.

I just was always staring at these planes.

Yeah, I love it.

And now you're doing it.

But there is, there's a lot of people that look up at airplanes.

Right?

Like, I mean you'll go to a party, you'll go to any kind of social gathering.

People Say you're a pilot.

You know, they're like, oh, my gosh.

I. I used to want to be a pilot, or I love airplanes.

And it's like, well, dude, you could.

You could have done it.

You can do it.

You know, it's like, this is a possibility for so many people, and so many people want to do this, but there just seems to be kind of the lack of understanding of how to get into it.

So with you having no experience, or were you with your family having no experience with aviation, how did you go about actually making this more than a dream and then actually doing it?

That's a good question, Justin.

You did your homework.

I did not.

That's all right.

No, that's a great question.

I don't think I really fully understood it until even after I got my private certificate.

I just knew I needed my private certificate just to even get up into the air.

And I did a little bit of research as far as Discovery flights were concerned, and we can kind of dive into that later.

I was like 11 or 12, and I was this annoying little brat just asking questions, question after question after question.

And you're just like, shut up, kid.

Like, let's just go.

You're going to have all these questions answered in a little bit.

Just questions about the flaps, the engine, the prop.

Like, every little thing I could, I could think of, because my dad's like, this is going to be your 1 learning opportunity, so, you know, take advantage of it.

And then finally after high school, I was my graduation present to take a few more Discovery flights, which I did to try to find out which school I wanted to go to or what instructor I wanted to go with.

And I kind of just ended up with one.

I didn't research the pts at the time.

Pts.

I didn't look up really much of anything and just trusted my time and my resources to my instructor just to take good care of me at that point.

It wasn't until after my private that I really started diving into how I wanted to finish up the rest of my training.

This was broken up by finishing up college, was broken up by medical issues, which I'm sure we'll get into in a little bit.

But it was going to be my money going into this loan.

And so I was trying to figure out what option is the best time versus quality, quality versus, you know, money aspect of it and how I wanted to go about it and once I dove into that at the end of college is where I really started to learn.

Oh, this is the process.

Oh, this is where these standards come from.

They aren't just made up from my original instructor of what he wanted to do.

You know, this isn't what the examiner just.

They aren't just making things up.

I probably did about six to eight months worth of research before finalizing how I wanted to finish everything up.

And once I had started down that research path, it really set a precedent for how I went about making sure I was prepared for all the certificates, ratings, getting into jobs, finding mentors, and all the good stuff.

Yeah.

Was private before college or was private during college or after college.

Yeah, so it was a 93 baby.

So had to kind of stop training.

2011 was when the health issues really started to pop up and started to delay me a little bit more.

I knew I needed to get the college degree because at that time everything was dependent on college degrees.

Delta, American, United, all.

All the big ones were.

Were wanting this college degree.

I'm like, let me just finish this up and focus on the flying after.

I was able to finish up the private as I switched over to UCF.

Pause the flight training.

It's going to blow your mind.

Commercial single.

Single engine add on multi engine.

Well, hold on a second.

Instrument private.

Commercial private multi, then private or commercial multi.

Commercial single Mei.

First single engine add on instructor, then instrument instructor.

Like, dang, dude.

Five and a half.

Five and a half months.

That's a lot.

We.

We doubled up.

We doubled up on.

We doubled up on the multi.

We did commercial or.

Man, I'm getting my words.

Good looks are making me so nervous today.

Yeah.

Commercial multi commercial single same day.

Okay.

In single engine instructor and instrument instructor were.

Same day thing.

Yeah, we.

We doubled up.

We just.

I wanted to be done.

What.

So as someone who lived in A state where a lot of people go for training or a lot of people go to college, specifically aviation colleges.

Did you ever think about, especially someone that loved aviation so much want to be a pilot.

Was there a reason why you didn't go the Embry Riddle route or maybe like a 141 school or.

Because I know Florida State.

I don't think Florida State has a.

Anything to do with.

And use.

I don't know about UCF either.

I don't know if they have anything to do with aviation either.

Man, I. I really wanted to.

Could not be happier that I didn't, but I really wanted to.

The first goal was not civilian aviation.

I had the Naval Academy, you know, kind of in my back pocket.

You know, memory might be messing up a little bit, but I'm pretty sure I had them in my back pocket until I went to a recruiter and got medically DQ'd.

Because I originally wanted to do naval aviation.

I wanted to fly off ships.

You know, I wanted to light my ass on fire and just go Mach 2, but couldn't.

So I was like, you know what?

Maybe I should get my degree in something else.

And I could not be happier that I did.

Yeah, I think it's important when you are deciding universities, Schools, Embry Riddle versus whatever other options you have, or 141 versus 61 is also to consider kind of.

I know you get kind of caught up and I got to get stuff done as fast as possible, whether it's ATP or a specifically designed aviation university.

But there's something to go into like an Auburn or an Ohio State where you can or even go into a standard public school and training at a local 61 flight school where you can still have a life outside of aviation.

Like, I mean, there's no knock in any of those aviation schools, but it's just my own personal experience.

It was a lot of fun to kind of be a normal student, be a normal person and have flying on the side as well.

Now you got to be motivated and it's definitely could be a little bit more challenging managing time, but I think there's something to it, especially in your kind of your younger years.

And then I will also probably contradict.

Contradict myself later by saying you got to get your.

Your stuff as fast as possible.

You got to get that seniority number.

But college.

I think that for me personally, the best option was going to a standard public school with an aviation department on it, where I got my private in a 141 program.

But then I finished everything up 61 back in North Carolina.

Yeah.

I mean, you could have picked a better school, but, yeah, I mean, basically what you said, you know, better experience.

Saying that flying in the Midwest was very difficult.

The weather never cooperates.

And as soon as December hit, Iraq came around, there was no flying.

It's like, all right, I'm starting my fr.

They're like, all right, well, the freezing level is at the ground, so we're not flying today.

It's like, yeah, that part's difficult.

And it's.

It's probably a little difficult to do, you know, training in Florida because it's just not realistic.

If you go high enough, you can figure out exactly where you are just by looking out the windows.

Oh, there's a big body of water.

Yeah, that's got to be east or west.

Gotta be one of the two.

I never thought about that.

There's so many airports you could accidentally land at, though.

In Florida, there was one just the other day.

I think some.

What Citation tried to land at MacDill versus Tampa.

Oh, that's that.

They just have 300ft.

They went around that one.

I don't really understand.

Like, I get that they're close, but they don't really look the same.

Right?

Like, north, south, and the other one's northeast, southwest.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Here we are, your quarterback, and it's Friday morning.

Yeah, that's what I do, baby.

That's what I do.

Tell me your thoughts to what happened here.

We were talking.

I wanted one more thing at Ohio State and the difficulty of training in the Midwest.

I remember we had a team football meeting, and our report cards come back, and all of our coaches look at our report cards, and Coach Trussell's walking down the aisle, and he, like, stops at me, and he goes, justin, why do you have an incomplete in flying?

It's like, why would I ever trust you as a pilot?

Like, are you an idiot?

Like, what's going on?

I was like, it's because I can't fly because of the weather.

So they just put an incomplete.

It doesn't go against anything.

It's just what they do.

And he's like, I don't know if I believe you.

And he just, like, walked away.

It was like, so Coach Trestle probably doesn't even think I can fly an airplane.

That's okay.

I mean, he and I are probably still on the same page even.

Even now.

What?

You're on a seven.

Three?

Yeah.

I don't know.

I don't rock it, man.

I got that bad boy down that.

After the laddie in your Garmin, I just.

I don't know.

We'll see.

We'll see.

We haven't had.

We haven't had the pleasure of flying together yet.

No, we have not.

Maybe one day.

But let's continue with.

Now that we did our little side quest with Coach Stressel, thinking, I can't fly an airplane.

But we're.

We're talking about how you're choosing your flight schools, choosing your path.

You really kind of knocked it out.

And then you mentioned earlier as well, that Navy.

The Naval Academy is what you wanted to do, but you kind of ran into some health issues.

Do you want to go into that a little bit and kind of talk about the disappointment and how you had to pivot?

Yeah, shoot, man.

I don't know how much time we have to go into it.

You know, everyone's.

Everyone's got their.

Their story.

Everyone's got their piece that they learned a lot from.

And in my mind, especially after going through everything is.

You know, there's nothing that brings you right back to reality faster than either sickness or death, you know, someone either really close to you or personal sickness in general, of just one.

Having things instantly put into perspective of how small we are and how just in general, events can happen.

But you know what?

We still have our life.

We're still here.

We're still on this side.

We're still breathing.

Sickness, on the other hand, is a pretty solid way to have just the utmost gratitude for everything, because you just have everything stripped from you involuntarily.

I am fortunate enough to be blessed with an autoimmune disease, and the FAA does know.

So we're not.

We're not getting into anything too crazy.

They already know.

Yeah, they don't know.

Um, we have not talked to any therapists about it, though, so we're safe on that end.

That's good.

This should be changing right there.

Mental health laws coming in.

I know.

It's.

It's a.

It's about damn time, too.

Yeah.

You know, just from the beginning, the first part.

Was that.

That straight up?

No.

From the military.

Like, I.

They won't even let me enlist.

I've tried multiple times on multiple fronts throughout my career and throughout this process to get.

To get in.

So that should have been red flag number one.

And I marked off the autoimmune disease what, you know, what I had, and instantly, don't worry, you know, I'm sure it'll be okay.

But we need to send this to Oklahoma City.

You know, the magical words that now everyone understands and thankfully is becoming a little bit more well known throughout the industry and people that are getting into the industry.

And yeah, that was about a six month process to get the paperwork out.

And it felt like as soon as we got it out and I was stable at the time, that's when stuff started to go downhill.

I didn't know that that would be the first of many, but, yeah, I just sort of kicked it off.

I dropped almost all of my credits except for marching band that fall semester because I had gotten so behind not feeling well.

A couple of hospital visits, thankfully in the spring, started a new medication, was able to kind of push along, do okay.

But then the next summer, stuff kind of started to go downhill.

And I was like, you know what?

I'm having a difficult time doing this on my own and I needed to come home to finish everything.

I'm not gonna say.

I'm sure people can read it on my face.

It was.

It has not been a fun process.

Yeah.

Each time I think I'm getting my feet under me and am able to go and push forward, this thing just cut my damn ankles off.

And was like, you are going nowhere.

I'm still here.

I'm still here.

Yeah.

A lot of people don't know that that five and a half months of training was like, I did my best to take care of myself, but afterwards, for like two months after trying to get into the professional sphere of instructing my body, did not let me do it.

And every time I get into a groove, it just is like, hey, this is not for you.

You're not doing this.

It was getting to the point where, you know, I have had hard conversations with my dad, was like, hey, man, do you.

Do you really think this is going to happen?

Like, I've been able to get to this point, but do we, do we honestly.

Do we honestly think that an airline pilot is in my future.

Like, I can't get a groove.

I cannot keep it going.

You know, eventually, was able to start instructing after, you know, kind of feeling off.

And that one went.

See, about three or four months after, was recovery.

I'm like, you know what?

I've only got, like, three or 400 hours left.

Let's go to, like, a 141 school.

It's just knock this out.

I don't have to look for students, so let's just.

Let's just do it.

Was able to get on to the cadet program at Piedmont, which was awesome.

I'm like, I'm gonna bang this out.

It's gonna be awesome.

And I wouldn't have lost any time in comparison to my friends.

Well, did that for three months.

And then my body was like, you know what?

Sounds like a good idea not working.

You know those dreams you have?

Yeah.

You know those dreams you had?

We're getting close, but not yet.

Not gonna happen.

Yeah.

You think you know what you want?

Let me tell you what you want.

It's gonna be a couple weeks in a hospital.

It's gonna be.

We don't know if this is gonna get better or not, and we're gonna send you home because there's nothing else for us to do for you here and may or may not get better.

I don't know.

But, you know, good luck.

Try it out.

See how it goes.

Yeah.

And before I was even feeling better, I'm like, I'm.

I am tired of sitting at home.

And I just.

I started looking for jobs.

I was like, you know, maybe instructing isn't.

Isn't the thing.

Sitting at home and not feeling well.

And I was like, you know, skydiving seems like something fun to do.

Like, I haven't flown skydivers.

Maybe it was like, I'm tired of Orlando.

Maybe we'll just move.

So found a job flying skydivers.

Out.

In the Pacific Northwest.

Loved that job.

It was the first introduction to caravans.

And again, just kind of sneaking out past, like, starting to slowly feel better.

Like, even before I was where I wanted to be, I'm like, you know what?

Let's just go do the job.

If we can't do it.

We can't do it, but it'll be all right.

Yeah.

But then just sort of pushed and push and magically started to get my feet back under me.

Went out to go do that job.

The Piedmont thing.

Wound up not working out and went to another regional and did my time at Air Whiskey for.

For a bit.

I knew I had one more surgery to get done.

Yeah.

Was that.

Did you know these surgeries are gonna happen from the beginning?

Was this, like, a three stoke guide?

No, no, the first two.

No, the last one.

Yes, the last one.

I was like, the first one put me in a situation where I could fly, but I'm like, this is not the most comfortable place to be in.

And I was like, I need to.

I need to reverse this.

So I was like, one more surgery.

I was like, you know what?

Let me just start the training.

Let me.

I get my seniority number.

Yeah.

And I know that there was a long wait for OE at that point and training in general, so I'm like, we'll just.

Yeah, we'll start it.

Ask him for forgiveness and hope it works.

And hope it works.

You're gonna see a friend here in a second.

That's all good.

I was like, I just saw black blob, but it's a cat.

Yeah.

So I was expecting to be out for three months.

That three months turned into a year.

Oh, shoot.

After that, that surgery and the recovery, and now here we are.

How.

How did Air Wisconsin, or Air Whiskey, formerly known AS Air Wisconsin, R.I.P.

yeah, how.

I mean, obviously, you were still working there, so they were okay with that.

Like, how do they interact with that?

How do they treat you with that?

How did they go about that situation?

Because historically, people think of, you know, of getting hired out of regional.

Do you have medical issues or you can't perform the job?

They're gonna be like, all right, well, we are going to terminate your employment, but come back later or reapply here, talk about how they went about that.

That experience.

Yeah.

I hate to call myself lucky, because going through that medical stuff was not lucky.

That was.

Yeah.

Not fun.

I don't think anyone would say that you were lucky to go to that.

But I was lucky in where I have been in this timing stuff.

And I think anyone in My shoes, a whole bunch of, I'm gonna call us children because we are children.

Just a whole bunch of, you know, kids in our shoes that don't recognize how fortunate they are and don't recognize the, the history of our industry.

I was extremely fortunate that I joined when I joined, because if I had a pulse, you know, we all were hyped and they needed people like the air Wisconsin was offering like an $80,000 bonus at that time.

Like, I even still collected the bonus with this deal.

But I went, I, you know, the medical stuff is my, is mine.

It's.

It's not anyone else's.

It's not like a, hey, I'm Jake.

I have an autoimmune disease.

You know, how are you doing?

It doesn't.

The conversations never go like that.

Yeah.

So I went in, I started this job.

I fully expected to go through this job.

I fully expected that with the training delays, I would have had more than enough time to go through this recovery process and it wouldn't have affected anything.

Well, you know, recovery process reached three months and four months.

I'm like, I should probably tell them something now because I know they haven't reached out to me for training yet, but I need, I probably need to get on the front side of this.

Amazingly, I reached out to the union first and started to chat with them like, hey, this is what I'm going through.

This is what's happening.

This is where I think it will go.

And this is the timeline.

I think I'm going to be on.

Like, don't, you know, don't worry, we'll take care of it.

Which was a surprise because I'm like, I'm nice to have people in my corner.

Right.

They worked with their attorney and they handled it on my behalf.

They emailed the company, they basically CCed me and I was still on probation with the company.

So not a full.

They could know whatever they want.

Right?

Like, essentially, yeah, I'm not a full.

We'll try, but we can't fight for you.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm not a full member with the union either.

So that part, I was extremely lucky because they went to bat for me instantly went on short term disability.

Oh, wow.

Which people should understand is not through the company.

Like, the company has an insurance policy that takes care of that stuff.

So never, never, never feel bad for reaching into that.

That is something that they pay for and a service that they pay for.

That is for you.

That was great.

But I did not qualify for long term disability.

When that part came Up.

So I was able to collect a paycheck on the short term disability side.

When the long term disability came up, I did not qualify for it because of its pre existing condition.

So that was just a few more months.

That's what emergency savings are for.

Yeah.

Made it through, I think three or four months on no paycheck, living at home, living with the parents until it was time to go back.

I'm gonna ask you a question and I'm just gonna fly.

I mean, did you ever like, I mean, you mentioned you had this conversations, but did you ever just want to give up?

Did you ever just like, hey, like, this is like, why am I doing this to myself?

My life could be easier.

I could do.

I mean, like, I don't know, it seems like there was like so much, so much pain that you went through to get to, and I'm so glad you stuck with it.

But there had to been a time you're like, working at, I'm just gonna say random companies just because I just went there the other day.

But it's like working at Best Buy would be easier than this.

Like, you know, like, I mean, obviously.

What do you say?

I said hashtag sponsored.

Yeah, hashtag sponsored by Best Buy.

Get your Apple Computer.

I'm kidding.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, I mean, why put yourself through the unknown of what's going to happen?

Was it just like, this is my dream, this is what I wanted to do since I was three?

Was it kind of that that was motivating you to do it, or was it, I have all this money invested, I got to pay off these loans.

What was the main motivator to keep going when it seems setback after setback after setback and like, you get so close and then it gets taken away.

Yeah.

Honestly, in the middle of it, it's like, it's like being in the middle of crying about something that has happened in your life or happened like five seconds ago that just hit you and devastated you in the middle of it.

You're not like, well, let me keep walking.

Let me keep doing what I was doing.

Like, you are very present.

You, you're not thinking about moving forward.

You're just in it and sort of, that's it.

Because at the time, even if you're not feeling great, the only option is to just wake up.

Some days the only option is like walking to your couch.

That's a successful day.

And there were days like, sometimes I didn't make it to the couch, but I woke up.

Like, that's all I could Kind of ask for, but once you can start tasting just a little bit, maybe it's not just making it to the couch, but it's making it to the kitchen and making some breakfast.

Or maybe it's making breakfast and being able to eat the breakfast without getting exhausted from it.

That's kind of exciting.

That's.

Justin, that's some good stuff.

I don't know if you've done that recently, but that's some stuff.

I did just eat breakfast today and I did.

Did smile afterwards.

So.

Yeah.

And you did say, hey, I need extra 15 minutes so I can eat my breakfast.

So congratulations.

If you had food breakfast, you would have taken 30 minutes.

So to finish 15 is extraordinary.

I'll tell you what, man, there were days where, you know, it would have to go out and go to the car, and getting back inside from the car would take 45 minutes.

Because I'm sitting in the car thinking about how much energy it's going to take to open up my door, to turn the car off, to get out.

Not just get out of the car, but then you have to close the door and find a way to lock it.

And, man, God forbid you have something you need to take inside, because that is gonna suck, too.

So you gotta maybe go open another door, go pick up the bags, close that one, and then like, maybe take the 10 to 15 steps inside.

But all that to say to go back to your question, it's when you start tasting even just a little bit, Maybe it isn't 45 minutes to get in from the car.

Maybe it's, you know, 10 minutes.

Maybe it's five minutes.

Maybe it's walking down to the grocery store and it's.

You're not out of breath doing it.

Maybe it's like that one opportunity you get to go to the gym, and the gym absolutely kicks your ass.

And you can't, you know, you can't move afterwards.

But, like, you couldn't go to the gym last week.

Yeah.

And eventually it gets to the point where, personally for me, my brain pushes so much of what happened out.

Because thinking of it is sad.

And it makes me.

Yeah, it makes me very sad to think about.

So I do everything I do now just in utmost appreciation for every little thing that I do.

Hey, it's Justin.

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I think it's like make your bet.

I don't know what the actual book's called, but the theory is it's by like some kind of general in the military.

You know, I mean, you were military, you're aficionado.

Let's say you wanted to join the Navy at some point.

But like it was all about, you know, small wins.

Like, all right, you wake up, you make the bed.

That's the first win.

And the day just continues to carry.

And you, you take this win into the next win and they just kind of carry on and build up.

I kind of get that same vibe with you.

It's like once you start seeing like a win, then you're like, all right, I can do this now.

All right, we can do this.

And then it just continues to build on each other.

The question is, when these kind of downs start, is this something that you can tell is getting ready to happen?

Is this something that just like snaps and all of a sudden it's here, or how does that process go?

It's a, it's, it is a process.

But, you know, kind of going back on what you said, you know, tasting the winds, there's, there is more that I want to feel other than just the winds.

Yeah.

And there's nothing I get from life that I get from flying like that.

Nothing that really compares to it.

But.

Then answering your next one, just the.

You can kind of start to feel sometimes you can catch it.

I know ahead of time if there's something really stressful going on in my life that I can kind of be prepared and be proactive with steps that I know will help and not purposefully exacerbate the problem that I know will probably be a problem.

And sometimes it's not even a real big thing.

It's just minor symptoms start to show and you're like, this is like, we have no time for you.

This is not.

We, we need to kind of cut back kind of recenter, do what I know helps those particular symptoms.

And yeah, just keep Moving forward, doing what you can do with the time, and then working with whatever other constraints you may have.

How would you say, you know, you probably had.

I don't want to like, judge anyone else's life or kind of.

I can't speak for other people, but from this conversation, there's been.

Justin.

Yeah, There's.

There's been a lot of setbacks.

It sounds like there's been a lot of disappointments.

Right?

Like, I mean, there's been like, so like the closeness of reaching the high and then just the.

The utter collapse of the low.

How do you use.

How have you used that or have you used that to help kind of shape your perspective on either the little things in life or just how you view things in general?

Has that kind of made you appreciate things a little bit different or kind of talk about how you have used kind of those setbacks and those pains to either grow as a person and how you go about a daily life?

Yeah.

Two aspects.

One is on the appreciation side of things.

I recognize the absolute tiniest of things and will stop in the middle of my day just to appreciate them.

Taxiing the airplane, you know, getting a second to look.

It's like walking past a really reflective window and you're like, man, I got some nice gains today.

It's the same thing taxing the.

Any airplane.

You kind of look in the mirror, you're like, damn, like, I'm moving that right now.

That's pretty cool.

Big old.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

It's like, I look good right now.

Yeah.

The other piece of that has been I don't have room in my life for.

Am I allowed to curse?

Can I curse?

I mean, you already have.

I don't know if you notice that.

Let's go.

I have.

We're speaking freely.

I don't have time in my life for bullshit, Justin.

Okay.

I don't have time in my life for things that are not real.

So if people don't follow through with things like it's not chance after chance after chance after chance to try to redeem that.

Like, I will try.

If other people aren't willing to meet me in the middle, then that's sort of it.

If there is a situation that is taking energy, a lot of energy sometimes is just not worth my energy to.

Yeah.

Keep giving it freely.

That can be personal relationships that can be business related.

Stuff that can be career related.

It can be conflict in a career, literally anything.

If it's sucking too much energy, sometimes it just needs to be either quickly, quickly resolved, whether that's admitting fault that isn't yours.

Yeah.

Or anything to qualm the situation so that I can have my energy back because it is worth so much more.

No one else deserves it unless it's the people that I choose.

Yeah.

To have deserve it.

So it's.

It's been.

It's been both, but it's really great at work flying, especially with a larger crew where.

Excuse me, sir, my cat's trying to make an entrance.

It's.

It's great at work because any of the small things at work that will sometimes send certain captains up a wall, whether that's rampers not being prepared, whether that's rampers loading the airplane incorrectly, whether that's miscounts, whether that's having to do manual counts, whether it's ridiculous maintenance.

Maybe it's something maintenance that the flight attendant found that you were just hoping that they wouldn't find because it's go.

Home leg, go home day, but they found it.

Yeah, but, man, they know when to find it.

Yeah.

I love my flight attendants, just FYI, but little things like that, I just don't care.

I care like I do good.

I do a good job, but I just don't care.

There's nothing.

When you say you don't care, you mean that you don't let it affect you in a negative way.

I don't.

It is what it is.

We write it up.

We just deal with it.

Yeah.

You're like, if my parents listen to this and they hear you say it is what it is, they know that I'm holding a lot of restraint back because I can't.

I can't stand the phrase.

It's just.

It is what it is.

It's the adult version of whatever.

Okay.

Well, it's just when you don't know how to explain it.

Right.

It's just like, yeah, all right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's.

It's.

I don't care is in the terms of not getting worked up.

There's no one to yell at.

There's no one to get frustrated with.

There's no one to get.

Like I said, there's nothing to expend energy on that is going to rile anyone up.

Yeah.

It's not going to change anything.

Your reaction is only going to make things worse.

I'm sure you has a potential to.

Only make things worse.

I know.

I'm sure you sat next to some of those captains where you're just like, hey, man, we have no control over this.

I don't know if you noticed or not.

So it's like, dude, go walk outside.

Like take a breath.

Yeah.

When the last time we were kind of talking about the aviation journey that you're on.

We're talking about Air Wisconsin and from.

I know, but people that are listening don't know yet.

That isn't where you are now.

That wasn't your last stop to where you are now either.

So can you talk about the decision, the decisions that you made to one, leave Air Wisconsin and where you went after that?

There's, there might be like a little bit of regret in this story, so I'm going to try to.

I don't like regret, but there's, there has been some reflection on some decisions that have been made in this process, like especially rather recently.

So at Air Wisconsin, it was under.

The time that we were operating under United Express, had a great deal with United where we had the United AVA program.

It was still in its infancy.

There's some conflict in there about who was getting into the program and who wasn't and kind of seeing some of the same thing now industry wide where a lot of the senior captains with great experience, great attitudes were not being accepted into this program.

And again, very, very, very, very fortunate.

I had not even had my type in the CRJ yet.

When I got my cjo, I got my invitation into ava.

Yeah.

Which meant what, what did that mean when you got that?

I. I was in the middle of sims for the CRJ and I went to Denver, interviewed and I had no idea what they're.

They gave me a situation and they're like, cool, how would you handle this?

And I'm like, I don't know, like, would you maybe call dispatch?

I'm like, that sounds like a great idea.

Like, let's contact dispatch.

I would be more than perfect.

Great.

What would you do next?

Call the flight attendant.

Oh, that's right.

I'm going to call the flight attendants next.

And they're like helping me along this process.

And I'm like, why, why are you guys, why do we extend this invite?

And I'm like, I didn't know anything during this interview.

Yeah, I like to think I went in with a good attitude, but I was just a little surprised.

But anyways, I was fortunate enough to get invited into Aviate and worked my butt off just flying, flying, flying, upgraded.

I had just been asked to manage Focal, so like I was feeling great.

We were, you know, maybe 200 hours away from transitioning over to United, like in a really good spot.

Personally was not in a great spot.

Like we had talked about earlier a probably more stressful personal stuff was going on and I did not do a good job at managing myself while also handling work.

Air Wisconsin was great because man, you got hours fast.

Air Wisconsin was not great because you would work six days in a row.

You would be on a four day trip and get junior manned for the, you know, second two days and maybe if you didn't make it home, you would get overnighted for 30 hours to reset your duty time and you would, you would start again and I could not keep up.

This piece of trash could not keep.

Up.

And I wound up not feeling great again.

So I had to take some time off.

Say, well you know, shoot, what am I doing?

Like is this the job?

Is this the personal thing?

Like what is this?

What's going on?

In 22, I had gotten like a couple face to faces with American and they had told me to go get more experience.

Delta sent me a fix it email, fixed my application within about 30 minutes of getting that email.

Never heard another word.

Got a face to face in Atlanta, didn't hear another word.

United wouldn't touch me because I was in their AVA program.

I applied to my current carrier, they didn't even give me an interview.

Really told me no.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't think you knew that.

I did not.

They didn't even give me an interview.

I applied to breeze, had an HR interview.

No.

JetBlue, never heard a word.

And yeah, I think that's, I think that was it.

I think that's all of them.

Honestly, it's a good number of them.

Yeah.

I would like to mention this is not like as a brag, this was just as kind of adding to my not being sure of why things were happening.

I am just as much of an a hole as any other pilot is like, I don't think I'm that big of a jerk.

I have never failed a checkride, never failed a PC.

I've never unsat a line check.

I had upgraded and I had been managing union safety for pushing a year.

So I was genuinely confused.

I didn't understand why when other people seemed like they had two or 300 hours in the right seat of a jet and they're like, look at me, I'm going to a new legacy.

I'm like, how like what's going on?

And I just, with the personal stuff that was going on, added stress, kind of slipping on the health, getting a bunch of no's and Some just not even getting an opportunity.

I was like, you know, maybe, maybe I'm not meant to be in this position.

So I started looking for other jobs.

I looked at Air Ambulance.

I looked at.

Basically I wanted to come out west.

I was looking at anything that was going to let me come out to the west side, whether that was Denver, Salt Lake, any of the two.

I kept going on vacations out there and I was like, you know what?

I need to find something out there.

Had done a couple of interviews.

Those are going significantly better.

So I'm like, okay, is this a meeting?

Is this a resume thing?

I was even more confused because people were sending offers and it seems like with the corporate side of things, that seems definitely a little bit more on the personable side as far as what they would be pulling from.

And I'm like, okay, I could do that.

And in there specifically it said, would love someone with 121 training, standardization.

You know, just someone with a 121 background.

Yeah, like I could do that.

And if I two airframes, like, I could, I could do that.

So applied.

I went through three separate interviews.

I did the same thing I did before.

I did the skydiving stuff.

Like the, my third interview for that job.

Like, I think I had just gotten out of the hospital that day.

Solid.

What better time to go interview.

I need to get a haircut.

I need to shave.

I need things.

Clothes.

Yeah, I need all these things.

But the interview went well.

They extended a job offer.

I'm like, okay, I've got like three months.

I was like, I need to get, I need to be in the right spot again and again.

Like, I was not actively flying.

I was on short term disability at the time.

So I was like, just trying to deal with all of this.

And I was like, okay, three months.

Like let's go in three months.

Got myself back, was able to come back to Air Whiskey, finish up a couple of trips, and then I left, like not looking behind.

I was super, super stoked.

I was gonna go get a new type rating.

It's gonna be home based.

I got to move to Salt Lake.

So I was, yeah, I was thrilled, thrilled, thrilled, thrilled.

And I'm sure you, you even saw too, just between the, the two of us, like, oh, I'm never going back to the airlines.

This is too good.

Like, look at my rental car dog.

I got a Mustang.

I'm staying at the Marriott.

Check this out.

I got a corner room for breakfast.

Yeah.

Looking over the pool.

They are paying for everything.

I'm like, cool.

This is it.

This was a.

This was an account that had been established for 15 plus years.

This was an account that bought their Falcon right before the 08 financial crisis.

Made it through 08, made it through Covid, made it through the principal's personal divorce.

Kept the same airplane, same two crew members.

Was with a very reputable management company.

Trying to think of what else.

Just green flags across the board.

I couldn't find anything wrong with it.

And I remember asking everyone, like, am I making a mistake?

Like, I love this.

Everyone was going the opposite direction.

I'm like, my parents kept saying, oh, don't worry.

Like, airlines will always be there.

You can always go back.

And I remember fighting with them on it.

Like, no.

Like, if something happens.

Covet people furloughed during COVID Yeah.

Even my place, my current place, furloughed during COVID Air Wisconsin furloughed during COVID Like, it's not the same, guys.

Like, seniority is everything.

Everything.

If I don't get in now, like, it's gonna change later.

This is.

It's not.

This is not going to happen again.

Yeah, but I'm like, happy go lucky.

This spot is great.

Then look at me in Hawaii on this corner room, looking over the ocean, watching the sunset with a motorcycle rental.

Living the dream, right?

Yeah.

That was all great until it was like your, you know, your girlfriend or boyfriend or partner or whatever you have, like, sit you down, be like, hey, can we.

Can we talk?

Like, okay, remember looking at my other pilot, like, what do we.

We think we're going to talk about, huh?

Like, do we think he's.

No, they wouldn't do that.

They've had it for this long and they're divorced.

Sure enough, selling the jet.

Like, what, our jet or another jet?

I'm like, okay, selling the jet.

Okay.

Yeah.

I was just.

I just kind of sat there, just.

I didn't really know what to say.

I was like, okay, great.

Good for you.

Good decision, you know, Gotta do what's best for you.

Like, what am I supposed to do?

So I started looking for other corporate jobs.

This was the end of summer, beginning of fall, into 23, looking for other jobs, not really finding anything I want.

Got some really nice offers for some good corporate gigs, some awesome corporate gigs.

But I would have had to move.

And I'm not moving.

I am home.

This is home.

This whole valley is home.

All my friends are here.

So I'm like, starting to look for other things that are based here.

Couldn't find anything.

I had already made up my mind.

I'm not going back to the airlines.

So it's only, only corporate stuff.

Basically, a friend sat me down and said, you should consider going back to the airlines.

Like, no, dude, I already made.

No, I can't do that.

I've already made peace with not going back.

She's like, listen, with how things have gone in your past, granted, I know you're feeling good now, but how things have gone in the past.

You could.

Probably have a little bit of protection.

Like, what do you mean?

Well, like, if you call in sick right now, like, there's just two of you.

You need two of you.

And your actions, like, kind of more directly impact the operation.

There is some benefits to being a number.

And we had that conversation and was like, okay.

Kind of swallowed the ego.

It's like, fine, End of January of 24, get told that they are playing to sold and we're done.

So out of a job.

Thankfully, a few weeks later, NGPA was going on in Palm Springs.

I am not a member.

I don't think I'm a member of any organization.

I was like, you know, it'd be good to get some face to face time with some of these guys, talk, see what they're looking for.

You know, American might be there.

Maybe I have enough experience now.

Alaska will be there.

Southwest like some good places.

So I went, talked to all these people, had a face to face with American and talked to Southwest, talked to Alaska, and it hadn't quite hit the news waves yet that no one's hiring.

No one is hiring.

Southwest was like, yeah, we're kind of gonna push it to the, you know, fall.

Maybe.

Alaska's like, like, Paul, what?

Yeah, I was like, okay, great, great.

Alaska's like.

Or American's like, we're not really going to hire anyone here, but, you know, kind of look.

And Delta kind of gave like the why did you guys never call me?

Kind of look.

And a friend who was going to the place I'm at now said, you should go talk to them.

And my first reaction was f them.

They did not interview me.

They didn't.

They didn't even give me an opportunity in 22.

Like, no, yeah, they can go jump off a cliff.

I'm not, not doing it.

He's like, why?

Just go talk to him.

It's not going to hurt anything.

Like, they didn't want me.

They.

I was in the middle.

Fine, I'll go talk to him.

Fine.

I had all my resumes and stuff and I, I needed to like take a second to change my, my mindset with this and be like, you have no job.

Yeah, just go talk to them.

Maybe something happened.

I don't know.

I was, I was struggling with like letting pride get in the way, put it that way.

So I went and said, hey, you know, I'm Jake, you know, here's my resume.

What's.

You know, I just had a, had a gig.

It just ended not too long ago.

You know, I'm looking for full time employment.

You guys have a base approximately close to where I'm at.

You know, curious, you know, what you guys are maybe looking for.

He's like, oh, you're.

You qualifications are like really close to what we're looking for.

Do you have any other offers or, you know, are you looking to.

What are you looking for?

Like, I just want a place to call home.

Like, I just want to be in a position and I don't have, I want, I don't want to have to worry.

I just want to be happy with my job and I want to go to work happy, make some decent money in the process.

But like, it's not priority number one.

I just, I just want my home.

That's what, that's all I want.

And I thought the last gig was it.

Unfortunately I was wrong.

And now I'm here and I'm like, I'm.

But you know, I just figured I'd come chat again.

I was like, I like that one again.

Yeah.

And I'm, I'm like, I did apply in, in 22, but I didn't get an interview.

Like, I didn't get a chance to talk to you.

He's like, give me a second.

Let me go figure out why he goes back and he opens up the little program and he's like, oh, yeah, Yes, I, I see you here and I show that we, we told you no, but there's no reason.

There's nothing written out.

It's just.

No.

He's like, would you maybe want to have a conversation?

I was like, yeah, yeah.

I mean I'd, I'd love to if you're willing.

It's like, come back in a couple hours when we're a little less busy and we can, we can sit down and chat some.

Okay.

Went back, it was a good thing because I was exhausted.

Yeah.

Took about half an hour, an hour long nap.

Got a quick bite to eat.

Just kind of got myself, you know, prepped back up, went back in about an hour before the event was supposed to close and had an interview on the spot.

Had a CJO by the end of the day.

Let's go, let's go.

From a major legacy, ultra low cost.

From a major, ultra low cost carrier with legacy ambitions.

Love it.

That's gonna be the new tagline.

They're gonna hear this and be like, it's perfect.

Yeah.

A trade market.

Yeah.

You can't use it.

Airline, legacy ambitions.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So, I mean, you started this whole thing off when we talked about what happened after Wisconsin and.

And you mentioned that there was regret.

Is there regret over just not trying to figure out a way to stick out with Air Wisconsin and not going through any of this?

Or is there regret over, you know, tasting the corporate life and it not working out?

Kind of talk about what the regret exactly is, Justin.

I was 200, 250 hours away from going to United in 22.

My friends where they went in 22 have.

Do you want to guess the number?

How many people underneath them they have?

Yeah.

No, I don't, because I know.

Yeah, I have a good idea.

Yeah, it's.

Yeah, that one.

So I wonder if I had just taken a little bit of time, figured out my personal stuff, given it just an opportunity to work itself out, and the big thing was just swallow my ego a little bit.

I just, I wonder.

Yeah, I hate to say regret, because I live a pretty freaking awesome life right now.

There you go.

I genuinely could not be happier.

Yeah, I think every pilot, I won't say every pilot because in the past couple years, five years, there's a lot of people.

I've just made it to Delta, just made it to America, made it to United, and really haven't had any.

I don't want to say tough decisions, but haven't had any major setbacks or what are perceived to be setbacks or step backs or getting furloughed or getting fired.

Going to corporate, then not going to corporate, then going back.

What do we do now?

Oh, you apply to the airlines.

Oh, cool.

I got hired.

It's like, what?

Just some of those people are miserable right now.

Yeah, some of those people are like, well, now what?

There's nothing else.

They've got like, they've got seven types in their logbook.

They rushed, rushed, rushed.

And they are.

Oh, here goes the show.

I'll let everyone see.

Yeah, they rushed, rushed, and seven, eight.

You know, how many types do they actually have?

How much varied experience do they have.

I've got 40 types in my logbook.

You know, I still fly outside of the airline.

I still push like I just got my glider cert two years ago.

I got my glider instructor this past May.

Yeah, there's people that are just unhappy, but at the same time, like, you know, they may have gone through the process of things I wish had happened in that order.

Yeah.

But I also wouldn't have had a lot of the things I have if those things had happened in that order.

Very true, very true.

I mean everyone.

I was always told that because, I mean, I have gone a non standard path too.

Right.

Like I didn't do cfi, I didn't go to the regionals.

I went as far on the other side of the regionals.

I was the most pro fractional person you could ever talk to.

That's true.

Man wasn't.

Which.

It's not a knock to say it's not a great way to make a living.

It's not a knock to say it can't be a great career.

Just what I needed in my life changed and what I wanted out of my employer and what I wanted out of my job was different.

So luckily I was at a time where I could just apply and I got the job.

I mean, you can always just apply.

But it was in the time where they were hiring a lot of people where who knows that maybe they don't want fractional guys or girls as much anymore.

It's up in the air.

You never know now.

But I was able to make the decision and I kind of wrestled with like, all right, did I just waste like two to three years of my life?

They're in contract negotiations.

It's like, yeah, I was number two in the company.

I would have retired at number two in the company.

Like, it's like I put in enough time here to, to give it its time to see what the contract was going to be.

So I decided to wait.

And I struggle with looking back on that with, like you said, with regret because it's two years ago is a big deal.

It's kind of like you talked about, like, my friends are hired two years ago, are going to retire.

Number five, number 10, number 200.

But it's a big difference from 200 or 5.

But I truly think that, you know, the experiences I got are just.

It really fulfilled my career.

And you also don't know until you retire, the day you retire, if you Made the right decisions.

Your decisions right now could have put you in a place that's going to keep you there and keep you as happy as you can possibly be up until you're 65.

Or it could finally get you to the airlines you want to go.

But when you're 65, you look back on, you're like, well, I met this person, or I had this much fun, or I was able to do this because I worked here, because I have more unique opportunities with a different lifestyle that you guys have than, say, what a fractional or corporate or other 121job has.

So you can't judge.

You can't have the regret until you turn 65 and you look back and then you'll be like, all right, yeah, I was an idiot.

I messed up.

Yeah, man.

Some of these people, you know, they rushed, rushed, rushed, rushed, and they went to whatever logo on the tail they'd always seen them themselves being at.

And it's just people like, you know, I'm done filling out my logbook.

I, I don't.

I'm at my, I'm at my dream.

I'm at my dream airline.

And the truth of the matter is, like, we all rushed and we locked in a spot.

Yeah.

And then all you can do is, like, cross your fingers, like, you lock in your spot and you're like, man, I really hope this works out.

And people don't realize that that's what we all did.

But, you know, they, they will figure it out.

You know, we all say, oh, you know, too big to fail.

Well, you know, we can all look at Pan Am as a big one.

But the, the thing is, is that you never know what's going to happen.

Right.

There's always, especially in aviation, every eight to 10 years or who knows what the timeline could be.

There is kind of this event that you just can't plan for, like 9, 11.

The wait.

Financial crisis.

It was.

I'm probably missing something as well in there.

But then you have Covid, and you have always a looming financial crisis coming on.

You always have.

What is it?

The AI bubble right now that everyone's talking about.

There's always going to be something that is going to be fearful of what you're going to do or that you're going to lose your job.

But you just got to try to put your head down and just enjoy it while you have it.

And you got to prepare for the, for the, the downturn and try to prepare your family and your.

In your situation for that.

Because there is a Good chance that there will be another downturn in your career.

You hear it and you've heard people talk about it.

And the person left c. It's like, how'd you get here?

You answer your question in five seconds.

He answers his that same question in 25 minutes.

Because it's like, well, I started this regional.

I went to this one.

Then I went to this carrier which bought a couple.

I got this carrier which then went under, and so I had to apply to this carry.

It's like, yeah, they've been through the stuff.

Yep, they went through that.

And then going through all the mergers, you know, what they didn't think, but what those who were in control of the merging and the merging of the seniority list thought was fair.

Yeah.

You know, was nowhere near because they had been at the airline for 10 plus years, and all of a sudden someone with like two or three years of seniority, even though it's the same percentage on the seniority list, just.

They don't mesh.

And they got screwed.

Screwed.

And what's to say, like, someone who wants to make a career at one of these other places doesn't eventually come up?

I mean, these poor people at Spirit, you know, they go to Spirit in the middle of where they're absolutely killing it.

They have a great contract.

Things seem to be great there.

Everyone's like, you know, I could.

I could make a good career out of this.

And they're now facing bottom of the seniority list.

There are people who have been there for 15 plus years who have said, you know what, it's better to cut the losses now before they get too great.

And I've completely started over their careers again.

I mean, there's so many out there, like, literally right this second that are.

That's going on.

Yeah.

That have experienced kind of the worst of the worst in the industry.

And it's kind of hard to say, you know, regret one way or another.

It's just kind of where your story takes you.

Exactly.

I agree.

I mean, it's.

It's something that you don't know until, like we said, until you turn 65, you can look back, be like, wow, all right, I did all right.

You know, 10 years ago, no one thought Alaska would be flying 787s to Europe.

That's true.

Here we are.

That's True.

And I think it kind of comes down to like, just people, like, if there was a moral of the story is like chase kind of like the life that you want, not necessarily like a logo on the tail or like the prestige you think is there or the happiness you think you might have by having a certain type rating, like, it just, all that stuff goes away.

But if you are putting what you want out of your life and how the job fits into it.

Yeah, that's kind of.

That's kind of the gold sauce.

Yeah.

Because it changes.

I mean, it wasn't too long ago.

Oh, wait, financial crisis.

Delta wasn't doing great.

Obviously they have rebounded and done amazing.

Now what?

Ten years ago, United, even through their regional carrier, was dragging people off airplanes.

Now they're doing great.

Like, I mean, things can change.

What you perceive to be the bottom of the barrel airline can in fact, in 10 years reinvent itself and become the creme de la crop.

I will say.

Yeah.

So, yeah, don't get so fixated on where you are right now and how well or how bad things are doing.

Try to build a life of the place that you're at and try to just find a place that can.

You can find a career at.

You can be happy, enjoy some seniority and try to figure out how you can stay home as much as possible and hang out with your kids and your family.

Heck yeah.

Or your cats.

Yeah.

Well, there will be a puppy soon.

Just.

Yeah.

Hey, yo.

Yeah, just trying to get everything stabilized.

But yeah, these were great for when I was doing four day trips and I could have someone just come check in on them and have them life in the apartment.

So love it.

But Jake, that's all I got for you, man.

Anything else for you?

That's pretty good.

Cool.

I wanted to say this beginning, but thanks, Jake from space.

Thanks, Jake from State Farm.

Over the words.

But, Jake, thanks so much for coming on, man.

It's.

It's awesome to hear how you still have a positive outlook, how you can face so much kind of just negativity and just like the, the wondering every single day.

Like, all right, do I have enough energy to.

To eat breakfast today?

It's like, I made it yesterday, but it didn't eat.

I eat it.

Can I eat it today?

Can I close my car door?

You know, that's not something everyone.

And you brought up earlier too, about like, you don't realize how much your health can impact you until you don't have it anymore.

You don't realize how lucky you are to have your health until it's not there.

Yeah.

So to anyone listening to this, I'm sure you would say this as well.

It's like, just really appreciate what you have.

You know, at the end of the day, if you can get up, you can walk outside, if you can smile, then you.

You're doing pretty well.

It's.

It's the same as, you know, people in the career.

Like, we made this, like, flying oriented.

You know, there's a lot of people that feel stuck right now that have felt stuck for, like, the last year, year and a half, just with industry not really moving, not really hiring.

And I just think about all of us that when we weren't flying and we were thinking, like, I just.

I want.

Everything would be fine if I was flying.

And then now we're flying, you might be flying for a living, instructing that FO at a regional, whatever, you're like, I just can't move.

I just.

But we're doing the thing that we wanted to do and couldn't dream of doing anything else, like two years ago, three years ago, whatever it might be.

And I just, I.

Sometimes it.

It'd be.

It's nice to have a little bit of a reality check, but it not be in a negative way.

Right?

I bet.

So.

I bet.

Yeah.

So to all those that are.

It'll happen.