Mike Garrison: Welcome to the Why Should I Refer You? There were different titles that were explored early in the process of this podcast. George was involved in those. But we decided this is the safe one. And so, George, you can insert expletive wherever necessary in the statement. But

Mike Garrison: the reality is is, you're a great guest to have on this. The oracle of growthology, I believe.

Mike Garrison: was the was the the title that you refer to yourself by so real quick. Introduce yourself to everybody. Let them know who the heck you are.

George Sandmann: Didn't expect that one to make it on the air.

George Sandmann: Well, Mike, it's great to it's great to talk to you for the rd or th time today.

George Sandmann: I am the founder and CEO of growth drive, growth drive is a business advising platform. You can hear me getting my sales. Guy voice on business growth drive is a business advising platform that's really built on developing knowledge providing business advisors, wealth advisors with tools, software and providing a very robust and sophisticated support package. It's really based on peer to peer support right?

George Sandmann: So

George Sandmann: in a nutshell, we help business advisors make profit and value growth, actionable.

Mike Garrison: So that last part was my favorite part.

George Sandmann: Yeah, cause there was fewer words.

Mike Garrison: Correct.

George Sandmann: Bye.

Mike Garrison: But that's okay. You know, we all suffer from that. So let's just get into it. So the st time you heard the title of this podcast why should I refer you?

Mike Garrison: What did you think? What was? What were some of the things that came to mind.

George Sandmann: Well, it was. It was. It was, you know, in an iterative, a very quick, iterative process. So guys think of think of slam poetry. Right? So why should I refer you what I really? I really like the title and what I like about it. Is it causes someone to to ask themselves, am IA good citizen?

George Sandmann: Am IA good partner? Am IA person who is going to? You know there's so many implications? Am I going to behave well in the engagement? I remember to dance with the one that brung me. Am I going to? Am I going to leave the client in better shape when I found them, and one of the reasons you and I get along so well is, we believe our vision is to leave an indelible positive mark with our clients

George Sandmann: and with our colleagues and with our colleagues. So that's

George Sandmann: you know it has. We could talk for the next  h about just the title. It's terrific.

Mike Garrison: Yeah, it's cool. You were one of

Mike Garrison: probably people that I was talking to about this when I was reconsidering Re, you know, doing a podcast again, and what kind of tipped me over? It was

Mike Garrison: observing how

Mike Garrison: a lot of people that have read my book.

Mike Garrison: can I borrow your car, which is really about how to handle referrals appropriately like how to how to be a safe driver. Yeah.

Mike Garrison: Still, we're not going to experience the results I needed because they were missing the most important part, and, as you know, I think there's critical questions in sales. Why should I meet you? Why should I buy you? And the most important, which is the check on everything is, why should I refer you?

Mike Garrison: Because sales, especially when you sell expensive things to individuals

Mike Garrison: or corporations. When there's when there's complexity and revenue involved.

Mike Garrison: referrals become absolutely vital. They may not necessarily in all

Mike Garrison: verticals.

Mike Garrison: be the dominant form of marketing.

Mike Garrison: but they are always incredibly profitable, and always incredibly meaningful

Mike Garrison: both to the salespeople and to the organizations. And and I think that most people, as you said.

Mike Garrison: don't really answer the question right? And so

Mike Garrison: I'm gonna throw it back to you. My observation. You've heard me say it before.

Mike Garrison: If the answer to why should I refer you is only valuable to the prospective client when they're in the market for what you do.

Mike Garrison: I'm gonna I'm gonna assert that that is why you're not getting many referrals. Let's say you.

George Sandmann: So that's really an interesting point. And I could, you know, there are kind of There's a fork in the road, and I'm gonna take it. The because one of the answers is, you know, we need to have, we need to share a commitment to customer success to customer satisfaction. Right? And we we essentially why I why should I refer? You goes to your own individual creating, your own high net promoter score.

George Sandmann: And so that that is.

George Sandmann: that is one thing you also must have, and you know we have guiding principles in the community. You must be a net giver, right? You need to be a person who is willing to give without the expectation. It's not a quid pro quo be a net giver. So those are the You know those are things that are that are

George Sandmann: that help create reasons. Create the answer to why should I refer you.

Mike Garrison: I I agree there, there really are. There really are answers that you have to have. There's answers you have to have.

Mike Garrison: If you really want to drive referrals predictably.

Mike Garrison: the st is a macro answer, right? And it needs to be something that is hyper, palatable. It's kind of like the doritos. Right it's got. It's it's got to have you all just have one more. And next thing you know, you've crushed a bag. You're sitting there in a carb, induced coma, with a case of diet Coke open around you in a

Mike Garrison: feeble attempt at mitigating the caloric onslaught. But I digress.

George Sandmann: For me. It's Pringles, yeah.

George Sandmann: Can't eat one.

Mike Garrison: Oh, yeah, Pringles are are horrible I am. But it's like this is like, your macro answer has got to work for your wider network. Right? So so for me, it's

Mike Garrison: I specialize in working with

Mike Garrison: high income owners of financial service companies. Right? So that's my kind of macro answer. And it's it is correct, right?

Mike Garrison: But it's not as powerful. However.

Mike Garrison: this is the problem with referrals.

Mike Garrison: We really don't want referrals from everyone we know.

George Sandmann: Correct.

Mike Garrison: We really don't, because

Mike Garrison: we will say statements like that, like anybody can refer you when the reality is is well. No, no, they can't. Anyone can waste your time. Anyone can

Mike Garrison: can promote you. I'm thinking of a particular person. We both know that owes you money. Anyone can promote you.

George Sandmann: Right.

Mike Garrison: Right.

Mike Garrison: I'm a bad person. I'm a bad person, but that person is a great example.

Mike Garrison: The challenge is is, what do you really want. And this is where the why should I refer? You gets powerful, and it goes down

Mike Garrison: the essentials. So you have to have like you, said George.

Mike Garrison: Like table stakes are.

Mike Garrison: You're likable.

Mike Garrison: You do good work.

Mike Garrison: and it's valuable right? Table stakes right like, you know. You trust you.

George Sandmann: Yeah.

Mike Garrison: Too many people spend all their time trying to convince people

Mike Garrison: why they should refer them on table stakes as opposed to

Mike Garrison: getting really specific, because really

Mike Garrison: the best answer to why should I refer? You occurs after you've got a name

Mike Garrison: right.

Mike Garrison: you know, so like when when I why should I refer you, George, right? When when I think about that, the answer to why should I refer you

Mike Garrison: to say a friend of mine is very different than why should I refer someone who does exit planning software.

George Sandmann: Yes.

Mike Garrison: Right, or when you talk to me about somebody you want to meet, that I know. Now we're talking about who.

Mike Garrison: how comes later, and that's the big problem. So a couple of things.

Mike Garrison: George, have you ever had a bad referral experience.

George Sandmann: Yes.

Mike Garrison: Was it today?

George Sandmann: Not today.

Mike Garrison: Back today.

George Sandmann: Today today so far remains to be seen how today's referral experience plays out.

Mike Garrison: So you really haven't talked to a lot of people today. No, just

Mike Garrison: so when when you think, when you think about some of your bad experiences.

Mike Garrison: and and I want you to to let's dive in

Mike Garrison: woo.

Mike Garrison: Talk to the audience about a bad referral that you received, because the answer in your network about why should I refer? You?

Mike Garrison: Was delivered incorrectly.

George Sandmann: Well, it's interesting. You know. There, there are so many opportunities to mess this up right, which is why you and I talk about the the concept of what I call what we call a growth drive. Strategic coi, right? How do you create a referral relationship?

George Sandmann: And that's where. Why, that's why you and I became friends. You know immediately. How do you create a referral relationship? And what we call we shorthand is collaboration

George Sandmann: and bad experiences can come from a number of different sources, and they come from not having a defined process. And anybody who knows growth drive knows that we are all about defined processes. So a bad referral can come, you know. st of all, you're just throwing people at me to try to make me feel good

George Sandmann: you know they're not. They're just not qualified. They're

George Sandmann: and qualification. If you and I don't have a relationship you may not understand, like I know, that you want to meet high net worth

George Sandmann: owners of wealth, advisory businesses, and anything you know, million is great, and a billion of assets under management is even better, and that is where you excel. And I know that if I meet one of those people I'm already.

Mike Garrison: I'm already.

George Sandmann: Like

George Sandmann: you need to meet Mike because Mike is gonna make your world better. Bad referrals are. Oh, yeah, hey? You know, Mike, he does that that referral thing, you know. Yeah, maybe you should talk to Mike. Waste some an immense amount of your time, but much more importantly, that referral ends up being a dead end street, and actually is bad for the referrer, because it it takes a even if it's just a little chip.

George Sandmann: It could be a chip, or it could be a chop

George Sandmann: out of

George Sandmann: the client's perception of of your value at the table, right.

Mike Garrison: Absolutely, you know.

Mike Garrison: I will say, from a giving

Mike Garrison: referral standpoint when we look at it.

Mike Garrison: And we talked a little bit about it earlier today on a a network we're in.

Mike Garrison: I find it especially frustrating

Mike Garrison: when people come to me

Mike Garrison: wanting me to refer to them

Mike Garrison: without ever having answered, why should I refer you right and so, and and to be

Mike Garrison: really generous.

Mike Garrison: I mean really generous to provide.

George Sandmann: Generous man!

Mike Garrison: To provide grace at a cosmic level.

Mike Garrison: You know.

Mike Garrison: these people are excited, and this is what happens right? They're excited. They they think that you can help them when I'm talking to you in the audience. This happens to you, too.

Mike Garrison: Don't don't ascribe, you know.

Mike Garrison: guard at Auschwitz

Mike Garrison: type of moral character to someone who's come to you and is kind of ignorantly being a predator. Right? They're there just to take

Mike Garrison: there. There is a compliment involved in that they do perceive that you are a giving person, that you're open to helping them, and that you can

Mike Garrison: the challenges. And this is from my perspective. I'm about to flip it to you, George is. There's a lot of stuff that happens. A lot of calculations happen inside the brain and inside the heart of someone that can

Mike Garrison: refer you

Mike Garrison: who actually has the capability to do it, and if they were approached correctly.

Mike Garrison: would do it on a potentially

Mike Garrison: repetitive basis, right? And so this is what happens with me. They come to me

Mike Garrison: and they they're trying to use something they read in a book that I wrote, or other people wrote referrals, and they're trying. They're trying to do the hey, you know, you're amazing. And I'm like, Oh, here we go, right, you know, like, here we go.

George Sandmann: And you are amazing, but.

Mike Garrison: We're no longer.

George Sandmann: I'm never gonna tell you that.

Mike Garrison: That's right. We're no. You're no longer buying me a drink. You're asking for my room key right?

Mike Garrison: Right? And and and the next thing you know they're like.

Mike Garrison: would you give me a referral? And sometimes it's that it's that simple. And and I get frustrated. Do you get frustrated when people come to you wanting help.

Mike Garrison: but a

Mike Garrison: not having sought to understand from you.

Mike Garrison: When you become willing to refer.

Mike Garrison: question one and then not

Mike Garrison: not giving you exactly what they want, so you can adequately

Mike Garrison: ascertain

Mike Garrison: what you're really being asked to do.

George Sandmann: Yeah, that's That's critical questions. Right?

Mike Garrison: Take it away.

George Sandmann: The is.

George Sandmann: hey, George? If you hey, George, if any Ceos ever come, you know, come crashing into the website, they fill out that form you, you know. Just remember that I'm out here like.

George Sandmann: Oh, okay, I'll remember that you're out there.

Mike Garrison: I won't.

George Sandmann: But what?

George Sandmann: Oh, remembering and doing something about it or 

Mike Garrison: Oh, it's good!

George Sandmann: But but.

Mike Garrison: Never, you know.

George Sandmann: That's and that's kind of a fair, you know, and we all want more business. So it's not an unfair question. But you're you're making

George Sandmann: you're you're kind of kicking up. You're kicking up the process.

George Sandmann: Gicking, by the way, is a term of art, is one of my wife's favorite words, and I use it all the time. So you're gicking up the process because that's not really. Now, if you said to me, it better, I think, if hey, George, I'm in.

George Sandmann: I'm in Denver, and if you hear about a manufacturing business in Denver, especially if they're like million and up

George Sandmann: who needs

George Sandmann: X help.

George Sandmann: then I'd appreciate it if you you know, I'd appreciate it if if I'd be if I could be on the list.

George Sandmann: That's a very different now. I'm like manufacturing.

Mike Garrison: Better.

George Sandmann: Denver. That's okay. At least now I have.

George Sandmann: You've you've you've helped map

George Sandmann: map out for me, you've also. And so that's 

George Sandmann: that's part of the answer.

George Sandmann: The other part of the answer is, in in my world, you know, being, let's talk selfishly. I have a community of people. I have a lot of people who who invest a lot of time and treasure in growth drive.

George Sandmann: and they are out using what we and they are. And here's the important part. They are paying money. They are investing time and money into the growth drive process. And it blows my mind when somebody shows up and says, Yeah, I'm not going to subscribe. I'm not going to. I'm not going to invest time and treasure in the community. I'm not even going to participate in the community. But when you need an investment, banker, why don't you? Why don't you just remember that I exist, Mike?

George Sandmann: I just have an equitable. This isn't a pay to play thing. This is an equitable thing I have. So you're telling me that I have really good high quality investment bankers who are investing their time. Let's leave the money aside. They're investing their time in the community they're contributing.

George Sandmann: and you don't want to do that. But you want to be treated. You're actually asking to be treated better than them.

Mike Garrison: Yeah, you know what I call them.

George Sandmann: You have made. It is impossible for me now, unless, by the way, I let me give a big, fat CAD caveat.

George Sandmann: If you are the absolute right person

George Sandmann: for this case, and I know that you are in all likelihood the the one person who can best deliver the clients results. I don't give a flyer how much time and effort you've put into the community you're gonna get that you're gonna get that referral because I care the most about the...