Lisa Steadman's mother made her a marriage counselor when she was 12 years old — crying, then problem-solving, while she was still playing with Barbies. Forty years later, she's built five bestselling books and a career on studying why relationships work and why they don't. This episode, she brings that same clarity to something we don't talk about enough: friendship in midlife.

We get into how to actually make friends after 40 when nobody's inviting you to anything. What it's like to lose a friend who won't tell you why. The friendship that ended over a text about a 401k match. And what happens when you lose weight and an old friend from 20 years ago resurfaces just to tell you that you've changed.

We also get honest about the tiniest, most privileged-sounding advice that's still true: take care of your health, save what you can, and stop waiting for permission to be brave. Lisa left a corporate job in her 50s to make a short film that premiered at Cannes. She'll tell you exactly what that free fall felt like — and why she jumped anyway.

[COLD OPEN]

Lisa: "You're braver than you know, and the woman you meet — your future self already exists. And so she's holding her arms out, and she's gonna catch you when you take the leap. But it's up to you to take the leap."

[JACKIE INTRO]

You know that feeling when you already know something but you're just not ready to deal with it yet? Maybe it's a friendship that's been on life support for two years, or maybe it's a job that is slowly killing you inside. Or maybe it's your health, and you keep telling yourself you'll get serious about it next month.

Here's the thing: you already know, and you've known for a while.

Lisa Steadman has spent her entire career studying why relationships work and why they don't. She's a USC film school grad who wrote five bestselling books on breakups and dating before she went back to screenwriting and directing. Her latest short film just premiered at Cannes. But this conversation isn't about any of that. It's about what she's built in her 50s once she started actually listening to what she already knew — in her relationships, her career, her health — and what she's learned about herself through her work.

PART 1 — ORIGIN STORY & FRIENDSHIP

Jackie: Let's go back first. What possessed you to write about relationships, and what did you learn about relationships from writing about relationships?

Lisa: Oh my God. Well, okay. I mean, if we're going back — my mother made me her marriage counselor when I was 12. I literally remember the moment she came in my bedroom. We were living in Saudi Arabia at the time, and I was still playing with Barbies. I was a late bloomer — I was 12, playing with my Barbies, wondering why Barbie and Ken were having breakups and affairs and all these things. And my mom comes in and is like, "Your dad doesn't love me anymore." And I started to cry, and then I started to solve her problems.

Jackie: As a 12-year-old does.

Lisa: As a — yeah, who had never kissed a boy. No experience. I was like, "Wouldn't the next-door neighbor lady, who's like your best friend, be a better person to talk to about this?" So I've been studying relationships since then — so, like, 40 years.

Jackie: The reason I wanted to go down memory lane is because, in my opinion — and you can tell me if you believe differently — a relationship is a relationship is a relationship. Whether it's with a loved one, a girlfriend — you're still showing up, right? Friendships. Friendships in midlife. I wanna talk about that today.

Lisa: Oh my God, I love this topic. I have lots to say about it.

Jackie: I think it's difficult to make friends, let's just say over 40, over 45. We're both in our 50s, but it's harder to make friends because, you know, for all different reasons. We're not raising kids. And it's also a place where we go, "Should we break up?" And I think we don't know how to break up with friends. So we're gonna run the gamut with all of this. You feel passionate about making friends. You built a friend group after 45. How did you do that?

Lisa: I'm a late bloomer to everything in life. I swear, I learn my lessons slow. But I will say — I met my husband when I was 32, and I thought that was old at the time. And now we've been together 21-plus years and he is like my favorite human on the planet. But there were a lot of years that I felt like we didn't have a social circle. We had friends, but no one ever invited us. We always did the inviting, we always did the initiating, and I felt butt hurt about it. And then we raised our niece for a decade, so every weekend was dedicated to raising a child. So around the pandemic she went home, and we started to have a social life — but it was the pandemic.

Jackie: You have friends but now you're locked down.

Lisa: Exactly. So we started doing a lot of Zooms with friends we had known but hadn't been able to really have quality time with. It's really been post-pandemic that our social life is on fire. I would say 90% of the people we socialize with now, we met after the pandemic.

Jackie: Do you think you were always open to making new friends, or did you change after the pandemic?

Lisa: I think we both changed. When I met my husband, he would go to parties and stand in a corner by himself. And now that man has — I know it's an outdated term — rizz for days. He is charming as hell. And I think for him, he just needed to get to a place where he was secure enough in himself. What you get is what you see with me — always. Like, we met at an event, and I was like, "I need to know Jackie." When I see my people, I know it.

Jackie: So if someone were listening and they're like, "I'm 50 years old and I have a hard time" — I work from home, most of my friends are long-term friends — what would you tell her?

Lisa: Where do you go in your life that lights you up? Is it Pilates or yoga? My husband's a cocktail guy, so he texts a bunch of people every Thursday: "Y'all, this is where I'm going tonight. Come meet me or not." And if no one meets him, he talks to strangers. You're gonna have to challenge yourself to meet new people, or look in your existing circles to see who you haven't made time for. For me, I'm still really excited about the world even at 54, so I'm constantly going out and meeting new people. I am exhausted by it, but I love it.

Lisa: I think it's about taking risk. Saying, "Hey, could you and I go for coffee, just the two of us," rather than in a bigger friend group. I really transitioned from "let's go for cocktails" to "let's go hiking," because I started changing how I treated my body and I didn't want to be guzzling booze and numbing myself. So I give people options — coffee or a hike.

Jackie: So sometimes when we evolve as people — like for me it was when I stopped drinking, or if you lose weight — sometimes people aren't on board. And sometimes they take it personally. Have you been in that situation?

Lisa: After the pandemic, I said "Shame on me," and I reached out. We had lunch. I said, "I owe you a huge apology. Can we come back to each other?" And she is one of my favorite people. We went to Paris last year together.

Lisa: The other person in the trio — I didn't know was mad at me. We'd had lunch pre-pandemic, and then I didn't hear from her. I sent Christmas cards, I texted, I called. Nothing. And then I reached out one more time and said, "Hey, did I do something?" And I got this voice memo. It wasn't even what she said — it was how she said it. She was so angry. And I listened to it and thought, "She's had a story about me for years, and I probably can't rewrite that story." But I responded and said, "Just hearing your voice lets me know I really hurt you. What can I do to make this right?" I never heard back. And eventually I knew — it was unfixable.

Lisa: And it broke my heart. This is somebody I love, and would never want to hurt. But it also told me a lot about her — maybe she has some of that same trauma I have. Like, "I'm forgettable, so don't get too close." Who knows. I'm not gonna pretend to know what's going on on her side.

Jackie: What about on the flip side — have you ever broken up with someone?

Lisa: Yes. I had a friend I adored, and the summer I met my husband, I was living on this friend's living room floor on a blow-up mattress. I met my husband, I ended up moving in with him. And this friend somehow thought that I was betraying him by doing that and read me the riot act — just vitriol. And I'd seen him do this with other friends, but I was never going to let someone speak to me that way. So when he got nasty, I stepped away. I'd get these hateful messages: "Be careful who you step on on the way up, 'cause the ride down is bumpy."

Jackie: Do you think he was interested in you?

Lisa: No. He was gay. But what's interesting is that person circled back when I left my corporate job — 20 years later. He was kind in the first message, but I know who he is. He needed a favor. I said I wasn't available. And the second voice memo was the exact same as before: "You're nasty and evil and awful." And he said, "Just because you lost weight and you think you've made it..."

Jackie: Wait — talk to me about that. He came at you because of the weight loss?

Lisa: I don't know, because I haven't been in this person's life for 20 years. I guess he was watching me on social media. And yes, I did go on GLP-1s, and yes, I did lose weight, and I made a conscious choice to do that, and it was right for my health. But you're going to hate on me because I made a choice so I could hopefully live longer?

Lisa: Even 20 years later, hearing all that get kicked up again was really painful. I went into a funk. My husband said, "You gotta let that go." And I said, "I will. But this really hurts."

Jackie: That's a really common situation, whether people use GLP-1s or not.

Lisa: A lot of people feel betrayed. "Where's my drinking buddy? Where's my eating buddy?" I get that.

Jackie: So it sounds like you've had friendship breakups that are "we're breaking up," and others that are just the quiet drift. The quiet quitting. Which is worse?

Lisa: I'm a communicator, if you haven't noticed. I would rather you tell me to my face. "This is what happened, I didn't like it when you did this" — and I can either make it right or I can't. But at least tell me so I can grow from it. The ghosting is, to me, the most offensive thing you can do. My husband puts earbuds in while he's gardening and I walk up and start talking and he can't hear me. We've been together 20-plus years and I still hate being ignored.

Jackie: I have just people in earbuds all over my house. And I just think there's a level of grief that we don't talk about as women when our friendships end. We show up when a friend goes through a divorce or a death — but when we lose a friend, there's this grief you can't explain to another person who hasn't been through it.

Lisa: It's so real. And here's another one — I think the pandemic made it more acceptable for family members to quit family members. My father and my sister are estranged. If you'd told me that five years ago I would have said that will never happen in my family. My mother's dead, my father and my sister don't speak. So it's like I don't have a family anymore. I have a dad over here and a sister over there and a husband, but we don't all do holidays together. I feel like an orphan.

Lisa: And I think maybe that's why we've had so much fun cultivating this friend group, because those are the people that come over and make it easy for Thanksgiving and 4th of July. "Yeah, what can we bring?" There's no drama. And I love that.

PART 2 — HEALTH, MONEY & THE 80-YEAR-OLD SELF

Jackie: Let's talk about your podcast, Welcome to Midlife. Were you just like, "I gotta talk to some people," or "I need friends"? Was that your intention?

Lisa: I really think women suffer in silence in midlife a lot — not just about health, but about ageism at work, about how we feel about how we look when we look in the mirror, about money. How you feel about where you are in midlife is directly related to how you feel about your health, your relationship status — doesn't mean you have to be married, it could be you're happily divorced — and how you feel about your financial future. If you're stressed or not conscious in any three of those areas, you're probably in denial or struggling. Because it sucks to wake up and go, "I haven't saved enough." It sucks to wake up and go, "I'm not healthy." These things really impact how we feel about ourselves on a daily basis.

Jackie: As grown-ass women, we have to show up to have these conversations. You realize it's not the number on the scale that determines your health. It's this great combination — you're living in the moment because you know you have more moments behind you than ahead of you. At the same time, you don't want to screw over that woman in 10, 20 years.

Lisa: It's like finding advocacy for your future self. I think it's beautiful to think about my 80-year-old self. I want her to be thriving. My joke is I don't want her to be eating cat food. I didn't start saving a dime until I was 40. I felt very behind. But it's never too late. You can catch up. Will you have as much as somebody who's been saving for 20 years? No. But who cares? Focus on where you are.

Jackie: I write in my journal — I try to every morning. And one of the things I do is have conversations with my 80-year-old self. And one time she told me: "I'm not guaranteed. So whatever choices you're making today will not only determine whether I have a good life — it will actually determine whether I have a life at all." A journal entry changed my life. It's really hard to explain that to someone.

Lisa: That is so real.

Jackie: And I know this comes from a very privileged place to say "be healthy and save your money." But the tiniest steps we can take — in mind, body, spirit, finance, friendships. Loneliness is as dangerous to your health as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day.

Lisa: Mental health takes its toll.

Jackie: And not putting ourselves out there. I told my husband: "If you ever leave me, I'm moving three roommates in. I'm gonna Golden Girls this house."

Lisa: My husband's joke is: "If you leave me, I'm coming with you."

Jackie: Mine is I'll become a Golden Girl. Plan A is you. I'm just saying plan B is in.

Lisa: Women do outlive men. Golden Girls it up. I don't want to do another marriage — I love this man, but I don't want to compromise again. I want it to be all about me and my friends.

Jackie: So what have you learned about midlife through your podcast?

Lisa: Everything is a choice. You can white-knuckle midlife — be in hormone hell and grin and bear it — or you can ask for help. Get hormone support. Get therapy. Change your relationship to food, drink, and stress. Changing your relationship to stress as a perimenopausal woman is the best thing you can do. There is no accident that heart disease goes up in our 50s. When we're not sleeping, we're not repairing.

Lisa: And ladies — get a mobility practice. Stretch, do yoga. I don't care what else you do, but do something to improve your balance and mobility because your 80-year-old self will thank you. I saw my 85-year-old father yesterday — still driving, still lives alone, knocking on wood. But the man has a cane and is hunched over. My mother died in her 70s because she didn't take care of herself. My sister broke her ankle walking her dog and had three surgeries. Everything is a choice.

Lisa: And we're never gonna be perfect. On Friday I went out with some friends and it was supposed to be a nice glass of wine. It turned into a night of partying and debauchery. I woke up the next day not hungover because I hydrated and paced myself. But you gotta live it up too.

Jackie: Life is short. That whole Gen X thing — fat-free, then sugar-free — maybe just don't eat the whole cake every single time you have cake.

Lisa: But still have cake.

[BRIDGE 2]

I mentioned my 80-year-old self earlier. What I didn't say is that the journal entry scared me — not because she was telling me anything new. I already knew. She was just done letting me pretend I didn't. And that's exactly what Lisa did when she walked away from a corporate career that was, by every measurable standard, working. Except for the part where it was making her sick.

PART 3 — THE LEAP

Jackie: You're over 50 and you leave corporate. Most people would say ride it out. What gave you the balls to take that leap?

Lisa: I might be an idiot, and I might never get a job again. But here's what I'll say about the privileged place I was in — I'd been building passive income through rental properties, a duplex in Arizona, then a second, then a third. So part of the reason I could do this is I had passive income. But that wasn't the plan. The plan was retirement money. I still intend to work. I've actually never been busier. I'm just not getting paid for all of it.

Jackie: Your short film — it premiered where, just casually?

Lisa: Cannes.

Jackie: Just Cannes.

Lisa: This was not the plan. I was going to ride it out. But my health started to deteriorate because I was so unhappy. My 80-year-old self — I was never going to get to her if I stayed. So I had to make a choice for my 80-year-old self and this self. And I was privileged enough to be able to make that choice. Not everyone can. And I recognize that.

Jackie: I think financially some people can do it. But emotionally — "This is my identity. This is who I am. How do I move into this other place?" What would you say to her?

Lisa: Identity is real. But it's only as real as we make it. I got very comfortable with my identity as a corporate storyteller who made a great living, got a great bonus, got to go on any vacation she wanted. But the sacrifices became too great. What I learned in crowdfunding for my short film was: I get to be brave. So I'm choosing to be brave, and I'm choosing to live in a friendly universe that will take care of me. And so far, so good.

Jackie: What would you tell another woman who is having a hard time but she's ready to be brave?

Lisa: You're braver than you know. And the woman you're going to meet — your future self — she already exists. She's holding her arms out, and she's gonna catch you when you take the leap. But it's up to you to take the leap. I've taken it many times, and I've always caught myself — but there's a free fall first. I didn't know who this version of me would be. But I really like her. I've become her ride or die. I used to really beat myself up and never give myself credit for anything. Now I am my own biggest champion. And I think it's because I respect that bravery.

Jackie: I love that. Respect the bravery.

[JACKIE OUTRO]

Getting clear on what you want sounds simple, doesn't it? Until you realize how long you've been talking yourself out of it. That is the work — not the leap itself, the part before it, when you finally stop pretending that you don't already know.

If Lisa's story and this episode hit something for you, send it to a friend who needs to hear it. And if you're ready to start getting clear on your friendships, your health, whatever it is — I'm right here.

Reach out to me on social or [email protected].

I'm Jackie MacDougall, and this is The Grown-Ass Woman's Guide. Thank you so much for listening, and remember — until next time, you are a grown-ass woman. Act accordingly.