Coach Lee Hopkins spent years feeling like an alien lost in the sauce, watching 90s sitcoms like Full House to figure out a blueprint for human connection that everyone else seemed to inherit at birth. He was excellent at his job in data analytics—telling stories with numbers—but completely isolated, skipping the office pizza parties and lunches because he didn't have the script for the soft moments. He formally diagnosed his ADHD seven years ago, only to watch his autistic traits fully unlock once the hyperactive noise quieted down. This is the story of how a late-identified AuDHDer took his pattern recognition out of the data spreadsheets and into the messy, beautiful world of human relationships.

This is a conversation between two late-identified AuDHD professionals who know exactly what it means to carry communication scars instead of structure. James and Lee dive deep into the unscripted spaces of life—from the fawning and people-pleasing that leaves neurodivergent people vulnerable to being taken advantage of, to the raw reality of the "disability vs. superpower" conversation. No scripts, no performance, just two fast friends translating the unspoken friction of a world not built for their nervous systems. From isolation to intentional connection.

Lee opens with the paradigm shift of his late identification: discovering his ADHD through a doctor, discovering his autism through social media, and navigating the wild reality of traits shifting post-medication. From there, he details the trial-and-error of group therapy, realizing therapists couldn't give him a conversational playbook, and building his own framework based on History, Hobbies, and Habits. The guys unpack the exhausting bandwidth of masking, the weaponization of the word "selfish" against people who finally set boundaries, the "fawn" response as a survival mechanism, and a legendary, painfully relatable story about a Craigslist date at a fast-casual restaurant. Along the way: why asking "What" or "How" works better than "Why," the high cost of autistic rumination, the unique intersectional erasure faced by Black trans individuals in the neurodivergent community, and a full preview of the upcoming Social Connection Summit.

A Few Lines Worth Lifting

• "When you get treated for ADHD, more of the autistic traits show up." — Coach Lee Hopkins
• "I felt like they had all gotten the guidebook on how to live life, and somehow I had missed that memo." — James Hickey
• "As the autism shows up, we need clear instructions on what to say and when to say it." — Coach Lee Hopkins
• "Where someone else has structure, we have scars." — James Hickey
• "I'm doing something that feels good for me, doing something that feels good for me, and they're saying that you're, they're suffering because you are choosing yourself... That's such bullshit." — Coach Lee Hopkins
• "Do not help people to the point of self-detriment." — James Hickey (quoting his mother)
• "Everybody's operating, from my point of view, everybody's operating at that level. They're doing things that benefit them always. And so you must also do things that benefit you and say no when it comes to it." — Coach Lee Hopkins

Topics in This Episode

• Certified vs. Identified: Navigating formal ADHD treatment and discovering autism through community spaces.
• The Post-Medication Shift: Craving structure, neatness, and watching autistic traits step into the spotlight after treating ADHD.
• The Alien Metaphor: Growing up on 90s sitcom conflict-resolution and feeling entirely left out of the social guidebook.
• The Blueprint for Connection: Why therapy fell short on instruction, and how Lee used data pattern recognition to build a framework for communication.
• The Double Empathy Problem in Real-Time: Dr. Tyler Bowen's research on why neurodivergent communication flows easily until wires cross with allistic minds.
• The Bottom of the Bottle: Coping with the isolation of unmasked life, dopamine hunting, and the social equalizer of the karaoke scene.
• Reclaiming 'Selfish': Why setting boundaries and skipping the family Christmas isn't a character flaw—it's necessary self-preservation.
• Fight, Flight, Freeze, and Fawn: How childhood conditioning turns neurodivergent kids into people-pleasers ripe for exploitation.
• The Bob Evans Salmon Incident: A masterclass in ignoring red flags, hindsight pattern recognition, and learning to say no.
• The Three Pillars of the 2026 Summit: Unpacking Identity (the erasure of Black, trans, and female autistics), Biology (dopamine deficiencies and early perimenopause), and Culture.
• The Superpower vs. Disability Discussion: Why it’s two sides of the same coin, and moving beyond mutual exclusivity.

About Coach Lee Hopkins

Coach Lee Hopkins is a relationship coach, speaker, and the founder of Patterns of Possibility. As a late-identified AuDHD Black trans man, Lee specializes in helping neurodivergent individuals build meaningful, genuine connections in both their personal and professional lives without losing their sense of identity. By blending his background in data analytics with hard-won communication playbooks, Lee helps his clients navigate social expectations, establish firm boundaries, and get conversations out of their heads and into the world. He is the creator and host of the Patterns of Possibility podcast.

Find Coach Lee Hopkins

• Website: patternsofpossibility.com
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/coachleehopkins/
• Socials: Search "Patterns of Possibility" on TikTok to connect.

About the Host

James Hickey is the founder of PathWays Collective and host of The Sight Side. He is an AuDHD systems architect, Licensed Peer Recovery Supporter, and author of Cyberspace Psychosis and the Virtual Reality Blues. He was identified as autistic and ADHD in his forties, after decades of being labeled unfocused, underperforming, or not living up to his potential.

• Website: pathwayscollective.net/the-sight-side
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/james-hickey-9b8ab43a2

Social Connection Summit 2026

The premier virtual networking and educational summit built explicitly for neurodivergent professionals, leaders, and individuals looking to bridge the communication gap.

• Dates: September 23rd and 24th, 2026
• This Year's Theme: Identity, Biology, and Culture—The Intersections of Neurodivergence.
• Registration & Info: socialconnectionsummit.com (Keep an eye on upcoming episodes for James's exclusive 10% off ticket discount code!)

Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of The Sight Side.

This is the podcast where we discuss neurodivergence in

the workplace and in life.

My name is James.

I am AuDHD, that's autism spectrum disorder level one, and

ADHD, and I will be your host.

I am very, very excited about today's guest.

We have Coach Lee Hopkins, who is a, um…

W- we've gotten to know each other over the last few weeks, turning

into a very near and dear friend.

Um, he runs a company called Patterns of Possibility.

He is a very strong advocate for neurodivergence all the way across

the board, in the workspace, in life, personal life, professional life.

Absolutely fantastic.

Coach Lee, welcome to the show.

Can you gi- give us an introduction?

Tell us a little bit about you.

James, thank you so much, and definitely near and dear friendship.

It is amazing how when we find each other, the AuDHD folks, we find

each other, we wanna talk deeply about things, and so that creates

and fosters more easy connections.

So that's what I do for my business, uh, Patterns of Possibility.

I help AuDHD folks create more meaningful relationships, and I also

advocate for them in the workplace to be able to share their truth, speak

honestly, and feel more comfortable connecting with their coworkers.

But maybe not so deeply, just setting those expectations

Absolutely.

Um, so well, let me ask you this.

I understand that what, I mean, one of the ways that we connected

is you too are late diagnosed.

Yes.

Okay, so, um, let's, uh, can you just walk me through… I love

hearing about the before and after, like life before, life after.

Um, let's talk about what it's, you know, your, your point of view

how it changed from a diagnosis and what it looks like today.

So yeah, I want to be clear about the word diagnosis because I've

found that it is a trigger word for a lot of people because diagnosis means

that, to me, it means that you've seen a doctor and they have evaluated

you and you have been certified.

Certified's the word.

But you, you have been, uh, diagnosed as one of the disorders or the, um,

the, the conditions that you have.

So for me, I'm AuDHD, and I have formally diagnosed ADHD about seven years ago.

But for autism, that's something that I discovered through social media, and

I think that triggers a lot of people.

They're like, "Yeah, yeah, okay." So I say that I am self-identified.

I identify with the attributes, um, with other people sharing their stories,

and what I've read about autism.

So I wanna make sure that that's, that's super clear about that.

And so I could say that when I got diagnosed with ADHD, um, and I received

medication for it, it changed my life.

I mean, I had incredible focus.

I was able to do a lot of things that I couldn't do before.

I, I worked in analytics, so I love to look at numbers and data, and I

would tell stories with the data.

And I was pretty disorganized before then, but competent enough to get through.

And then, uh, with the medication, I was able to really, really focus.

And then some wild things.

I say wild, but more attributes, I suppose, and I think they say this in

lots of research, in other people's experiences, is that when you get

treated for ADHD, more autism shows up, more of the autistic traits show up.

And so I started to crave structure.

I put a lot of structure into place.

I liked it before, but when I was taking ADHD meds, I was more interested

in making sure things were neat.

I took lots of notes.

I was very, very focused.

I wanted a routine every day.

It was, it was very interesting to, to see that come up.

And so- Um, I was more able to focus, let's say, after ADHD.

And so then, uh, with autism realization, there's, there's always a bit of

a struggle with communication and connecting with people, no matter what.

So ADHD, I was more bubbly, but still saying the wrong things.

So um, autism helped me understand what I'm saying, what I'm laughing at, why

people are, like, confused by me, what I'm

Like, that I started to understand more about why I was freezing

in, in mid-sentence, and I wasn't sure, and I was asking questions

that, and that people got upset by.

Like, these clarifying questions at work.

People would get upset with me all the time, and I just didn't understand

until I heard and understood what other people's experiences were.

So it just gave me more clarity.

And after receiving this kind of clarity of like, oh, this is something that

other people have dealt with, let me see what they're doing, and it was

something that helped me feel less alone.

Because I really felt like I was an alien in this whole situation, in any situation.

People are really well connected, and I was just lost in the sauce.

The, the alien.

That's so, that's such a common trope, uh, among neurodivergent people.

So we feel like we're, um, uh, we're, you know, pretending to be human.

Yeah.

And, um, learning how to human.

I mean, that's one of the things that I always felt set apart from

my peers, um, even, you know, long, long before I suspected I had autism,

was I felt like they had all gotten the guidebook on how to live life,

and somehow I had missed that memo.

Like, how do people, it seems so effortless.

Um, but

Yeah.

How is it, how are we doing this?

And, you know, one of the things that really messed me up because I'm

a, a Millennial, older Millennial, so in my 40s, watching '90s TV,

um, when it comes to relationships.

So what I do in my coaching, I really focus on relationships and

communication and connecting with people, and I would always watch

these TV shows like Full House.

I'd watch, you know, Fresh Prince.

I'd watch Cosby Show.

And then they would neatly have a conflict and wrap it up in 30 minutes.

And the, the kind of conversations and, and fights that they would

have, it was just super easy, and, and I had no template.

I just thought that's the way life is.

'Cause when I look around, I look around, like, people are doing it.

People are laughing in, in high school.

People are laughing with their friends.

I'm not.

I don't know what they're doing.

In college, people are laughing.

There must be something that I missed, 'cause it keeps getting broadcast to

me over and over and over again that you're backwards, you're wrong, you're

confused, you're d- And, and the worst thing about it is that nobody's sitting

down and explaining to me what it is that I did say or could say next time.

It's, um, well, that's, I mean, that's an amazing background

actually, and it really speaks to your, um, career in coaching-

Yeah

… James: actually, 'cause you're giving, it sounds like you're giving advice that,

uh, lessons you had to learn the hard way.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, you know, and in therapy, so I also went to therapy.

So I managed to, you know, date people too and, and build relationships and,

uh, so one of my partners had said to me, "You're the problem. You need to go

to therapy." And I had no sense of self.

I was like, "Oh, well, I'm an alien. I don't know how to human, so you're

absolutely right. I'm gonna go to therapy." And, you know, they were right.

They were right.

I needed to go to therapy, and I went, and it was a group therapy,

and I learned so much about myself, but then it reached a point where I

was looking for instruction still.

Like, okay, I know more about myself.

I know how I feel.

I know where my emotions are coming from.

I know why I feel the way I feel and all that stuff, but still

I get stuck in communication, so can you help me, therapist?

And they're like, "Not really. Not really." And that's why I

started to do the things, like, for myself and do coaching.

So I put together my pattern recognition and ability to, uh, tell stories with

numbers, and I went out there and I started to experiment with other people.

Like experiment and say things and see how they respond.

Just be very intentional about it.

So I put together my own coaching program, first helping me and then

helping other people to say the thing because as the autism shows

up, we need clear instructions on what to say and when to say it, and

that's what I share with my clients.

What to say, when to say, watch for the response, and then when they have the

response, how do you respond to that?

But it's all practice.

It's, it's stuff that we try to pick up by watching other people,

but we need it to get out of our heads and into a conversation.

That's so, such a great way of putting it.

'Cause I think so much of, um, you know, where I've always struggled in

the unscripted moments that are outside of, like, the purview of, like, a work

meeting or anything, like a technical conversation involving an actual task.

Uh, you know, those soft moments, like in the break room, walking back

and forth to the parking lot, you know, into- Mm-hmm … the work.

Um, and I c- uh, carry, like, conversation trees in my mind, um,

you know, of how, how things can go.

But if it goes off-script, I start spiraling and on, you know,

I'll start info dumping- Yeah

about random stuff.

And we've had some conversations, you know, I'm into some out there things

too, so it gets, uh, gets awkward.

Like- It gets awkward sometimes.

It gets,

it gets awkward for those people who aren't interested,

but- Right … I'm like, "Oh, you're t- you're sharing stuff?

Tell me.

Tell me

things." Well, well, that's because we're neurodivergent.

Yes.

We love info dumping to each other, but it's, like, such this dis- disconnect

in, uh, c- in communication between… Like, a neurotypical person would view

it as selfish if, like, you're sharing a personal anecdote in a means, in a

bid to, like, connect with them, uh, in relation to what they're talking about.

Mm.

And they're like, "Well, why are you trying to take the spotlight?

Why is the, you know-" Yeah … "conversation on you?"

It's so, it's just wild to me.

But that's part of our… That's why I love what you're doing with

coaching, is, like, helping to kind of bridge that gap a little bit, um-

Yeah

… James: translating.

You know, it's almost translating between allistic, allistic

communication to neurodivergent ones.

Yeah.

I definitely believe we need a translator.

In fact, that's, you know, has been proven.

I think there's research out there that has just come out.

Uh, Dr. Tyler Bowen is a guy to follow on TikTok, and he talked

about this research where it is neurodivergent communication and

neurodivergence talk, or neurodivergent people, when they're talking to each

other, they really get each other.

It's not difficult.

But when you overlap and you cross those wires, and you start talking

to neurodivergent and then, uh, allistic people, they just kind

of get confused, and meaning gets distorted between the two.

And, uh, so there's somebody there that can translate.

They, they speak both languages.

Um, I studied a bit of it.

So- Which, which- I said as in having conversations with them.

It's like, it's, I'm fluent in allistic.

We got this.

Oh, okay.

It's, it's a, it's wild how that works.

Um, I, I do wanna touch on something you mentioned about, um, as far as, like,

isolation, where, um, you know, you're going through a high school, college,

and you feel very, um- e- excluded from just normal social interactions.

You know, everyone else is laughing and just like I don't understand

the joke, and feeling very, um, out of place in those instances.

Um, where, uh, I mean, because it's like, uh, when you say that my mind goes out

to, like, all these neurodivergent people that are, you know, worldwide right

now that are in a similar situation.

Um, you know, they feel isolated.

They don't know that there's a whole, um, you know, that they, it's because

of their cognition, because of their nervous system why they are, uh, you

know, why they are the way they are.

Um, so I, and this is, I, I wanna lead into the, um, you know, the way, the

reason I asked you on today especially about the, uh, social connection summit.

Mm-hmm.

And making social connections and why, um, you know, connecting with

our peers, and by peers I mean other neurodivergent people, is so important.

Because it sucks when you're alone.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

I spent too much time feeling distressed and feeling like no one

would understand me or appreciate me or accept me, and in my lowest moment

I was just drinking a whole lot.

And, you know, we're susceptible to, you know, looking for dopamine,

and dopamine's found in the bottom of a bottle or in other substances,

addictions and things like that.

And so because there was no one to talk to, I would find myself just trying

not to feel, and, uh, that is something that runs rampant in our community.

And especially with people, I mean, people who are lonely anyway, they will

turn to a substance, but us, we will focus hard on it and double down on it

and do the best we can to to, you know.

We-

It's

like it's our trait- Right … to do the best we can or to, yeah.

We do things with excellence.

Yes.

I mean, it's, um, I've, uh, I've talked about this on my show before, that I am,

you know, re- uh, re- in recovery myself.

I've been clean and sober for six and a half years now.

Congratulations.

And it was, um, but like with, I, and I'm right there with you.

Like it was a, um, you know, my drug of choice was marijuana, and obviously

there is, uh, you know, the science now that shows that that actually

cuts down on autistic rumination, and that explains my, you know, why

I wanted to be high all the time.

And I was, um, and I was pretty good at it, you know?

Yeah.

Getting-

Yeah

… James: g- whatever you had to do.

But the same thing with, like, drinking.

Uh, that was the social equalizer.

Like no one cares if you say a bunch of, you know- As, you know, s- spurg

out in a bar or something and you're going on about special interests and um-

Yeah, they're just like, "Oh, you're- Right

drunk.

You're just- Right … yeah, that's- that's James, that's

Lee," and then stuff like that.

Right.

Yeah, I was, I was big on the karaoke scene, um- Oh … as well.

So I would- What's your, what's

your go-to karaoke song?

Uh, would be Wannabe.

Okay.

Wannabe was one of them, like, by Spice Girls, you know, the theme.

Uh, yeah.

Okay.

And then there's, there's Jackson 5, I Want You Back.

I mean, people just really wanted to dance and be entertained, and I was like,

"I'm the center. I definitely wanna do this." I even started hosting, and people

knew me when I walked into the bar.

It was everything until I stopped drinking, and then all of that

disappeared, and those people didn't even deeply know me.

What the painful thing was is that I was going through a breakup, um,

and I was… People knew me at the karaoke, but they didn't know that

I was going through a breakup and I really just wanted to talk to somebody.

I felt so alone.

Nobody knew that, and I couldn't open up a conversation with them 'cause

they'd be like, "Yeah, yeah, uh-huh."

And- They would, there was no comfort, no real understanding, no me being seen.

And I realized that that was the problem.

Um, I'm centering my whole social life around alcohol or substance or some kind

of, uh, dopamine dis- dopamine anything.

And, uh, it was then when I started to realize that … And this was

a long time before I started to actually go get therapy for this,

but it was a long time, um, I had realized that I need to talk to people.

I need to talk to people, but I didn't have any scripts.

I didn't have any way to open up conversations or handle my emotions

when I felt like people didn't understand what I was saying.

Still, I felt rejected because I said the wrong thing at the wrong time, and nobody

cares about my deep, interesting thoughts.

Well, they're deep and interesting to me, but nobody really cares

about them, and it just kept reinforcing that nobody ever will.

For years, nobody ever will until I started to understand this autism and

other people are feeling that way too.

So, you know, that's why the Social Connection Summit exists,

is to bring these people together.

I'm pretty good at bringing people together.

I attract a lot of people to me.

Last year for the Social Connection Summit, we talked

about actually bridging this gap.

It was a whole theme because I had, I had focused on my workplace and how

disconnected I was from the people at work, but I was excellent at my job.

But I, I couldn't socialize with them.

I remember they had a pizza party, and I was like, "I don't know why I would

wanna go to that," and so I didn't.

Right.

Like, I'm not going to that.

I walked right by.

They were celebrating something.

I don't know.

But, uh, it was just moments like that.

But I was really excellent at my job, but I, I liked my job and I

wanted to also feel like I belonged.

And another thing that I'll say, uh, my team used to have

these small intimate meetings.

Like, essentially we'd go out for lunch every week, and

I'd make reasons not to go.

I would … 'Cause I didn't know how to have a conversation with those

people, um, if it wasn't about work.

I didn't know what to share.

And so the Social Connection Summit was meant to help us who are in

these situations build skills to connect with others who are, who

ex- who are, we're working with.

So neurotypical or neurodivergent is supposed to connect with them.

And the thing that I wanted to drive home is that there are neurotypical

people who are also missing social cues from neurodivergent people.

That's what I wanted to drive home at the last year's summit, is because

they also could come to the other side.

I mean, it's a bridge that we're building, and both of us can build

But they can meet us in the middle.

They just don't know how.

They just don't know what resources are out there, so I brought

them together for this event.

And so we had 275 registrants last year, and a lot of people enjoyed

the, uh, Is This Normal panel.

Is, like, bullying in the workplace, we had a panel discussion about that.

We also had a panel discussion or, uh, a speaker talk about disclosure and

how to disclose your disability if you want to and ask for accommodations.

You don't necessarily have to disclose your disability to ask for accommodations.

It's the way that you ask.

And so that was very insightful.

That was one of our most popular panels.

And then, uh, we also could have led with this, the keynote speaker talked about

neuroinclusion, and that was definitely directed towards those leaders who are

looking to include more neuroaffirming, uh, speech or accommodations for those

people who don't know how to ask.

Like, if someone had come to me when I was in the workplace and said, "Hey, I

noticed, Lee, you're struggling with XYZ.

You know, you're, uh, feeling like you're not talking, you're not talking

to anybody, you're not joining.

Well, is there something that we can do for you?" And I'm like, "I, I don't know.

I couldn't tell you.

I didn't know what's going on with me." So I think it's important for the leadership

to also know what they can provide.

Notice those attributes to the neurodivergent people that are in your,

on your team or in your company, and to be able to offer something to them.

So that's what the summit was about last year, and this year

we're taking it even further

I, that's a lot to unpack.

I know I said a lot of stuff.

That's, that's a lot.

Well, no, it's, I think it's awesome.

I mean, so many things that, um, there's so many things popping to mind.

Um, like one of them, I love that you're building a bridge of that,

uh, communication between, like, an holistic mind and a neurodivergent mind.

Um, 'cause I know I'm not the only one.

I'm sure that you've experienced this too, as neurodivergence, um, you know,

professional, personal, whichever.

We are expected to be a safe space for people who would never

be a spa- safe space for us.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, like we're expected to, you know, watch our, you

know, our, our tone, our, um, how we, you know, carry ourselves.

Facial expressions, that's another one, like, I got hit on, and it's

like, it's so much to keep track of.

So we're like, you know, using all this bandwidth to mask in order to p- be, you

know, safe or comfortable to be around.

That's another one too.

You know, I've been coached.

They're like, "Oh, well, you said, um, you know, it was really weird you were

talking about UFOs in the break room, and it made people uncomfortable."

And it's like, okay, um, you know, but they've made me uncomfortable

for other things, but it doesn't, um, y- you know, it's, it's, th-

that, that's neither here nor there.

Mm-hmm.

The point is that it's being coached over things that we do earnestly, you know?

Mm-hmm.

I'll make a comment that isn't said out of malice.

It's said either out of curiosity where I'm asking a question,

clarifying a question- Oh, boy,

yeah

… James: or, you know, that's another one.

Like, "You, oh, you ask why too much." It's like, well, I'm trying to get clear.

"No, it's you ask why too much. It's not stay in your lane." Um- Yeah … so

I, I love that you're trying to, you know, uh, do the bridge with this.

And, um-

Yeah, absolutely.

And I'll say one thing on this, ju- jumping in really quick

about the why 'cause I've seen, I've heard that a lot too.

And there was a book I read, Change Your Questions, Change Your Life.

I think that's what it was called, or yeah.

I'd have to remember to look up this book.

But the, the premise when I read this book is about not asking why because it

triggers people and their sensibilities, and I really wanted to really focus

on, like, being able to, to share my point of view with other people, and

it's, it, people just don't know why.

Um, and I discovered, oh, yeah, they don't, and they feel attacked by that.

So, uh, something actionable that the book recommends is to ask what

questions, and I share this with my, my clients all the time too.

Like, ask a what question because people don't know why, but you will get more

clarity about asking what is going…

Like a, a work question.

You're trying to get clarity on how your contribution is going to help the

project move forward instead of why do you want me to do this, is what is the

outcome you expect with my actions?

And if they get mad at that, you know you have a real problem.

But that is a very sound question that they should be able to answer without

getting upset and frustrated with you.

I, um- I think that's amazing.

Uh, it's something I've been working on lately in my personal

communication, is I've run into the same thing about the, uh, the why.

And, uh, what I found is why is very past coded.

You know, why is always talking about the past.

So- Mm-hmm … lately I've been replacing why with how, um, 'cause how is always

forward coded, always looking forward and moving, you know, moving past it.

So I try to do that.

But I think that's awesome about the what too- Yeah … because that's like getting

something, you know, it's get- getting- Tangible … getting an understanding.

You're right, tangible, something that can be- Tangible,

yeah.

Right.

I love that.

So what, what is like a person, place, or thing?

It's a- Right

it's an idea.

So what is it?

And that forces them to be able to explain that in a way that,

you know, we can understand.

I, I, well, I absolutely love that.

Uh, one of the other things that I, uh, believe is important is that connection,

and it's one thing that's, I'm, why I'm very excited to be involved, uh,

you know, peripherally with the summit is, i- is an opportunity, uh, for

fellowshiping Um, because think about, okay, think about our conversations, okay?

We're two neurodivergent per- people from very, very different backgrounds,

and, uh, we still connect very, very well, which I think is amazing,

uh, with people of our cognition.

Mm-hmm.

That makes me wonder, like, how many great opportunities for connection there's gonna

be at the summit this year with people who are attending for the first time.

Yeah, absolutely.

I'm- Yeah, last year we did breakout sessions, and a lot

of people asked for more.

They asked for more breakout sessions.

They asked for more time to connect.

And not only did they get the opportunity to talk in the chat, of course, but we

also wanna make sure that they're able to actually see each other because I

think there's more connection where you're able to actually use your

voice to share your experiences.

So we've created a couple breakout rooms as well, so we can help people,

like, feel like they are not alone, not just a text behind a screen because you

get that enough through social media.

You get that enough through- Right … like commenting on some people's posts.

They're like, "I, I feel like I know them."

No, you really don't.

But when you can do this and you can exchange, and I think one of the things

we like to do is connect people genuinely.

So last year we had the kind of informal method for people connecting.

Like, "Hey, drop your information in the chat if you'd like to connect with

people," your LinkedIn, your social media, not your phone number, right?

Yeah.

Um, drop that in the chat if you'd like to connect with people.

We encourage that connection all the time, and we're gonna

do more of the same this year.

And we are working on something that might be a little more formal to help

them, to help them really find each other.

I, I like that, too, because as lo- if there's a system in place, and

that's really gonna appeal to anyone who identifies as an autistic person- Mm-hmm

uh, because we're, you know, systems coded.

Um- Yeah At the same time, I like that there's still that digital interface,

too, that's gonna allow people who, uh, might be ambiverts or introverts even, uh,

to feel comfortable, who might not want to network in a room full of strangers,

but is more than happy to chat on a, you know, in a chat room or do something to

make that, uh, a digital connection first.

Yeah, absolutely.

And then, um, you know, part of the struggle that I had when, you know,

connecting with people is what to say.

So of course our, uh, breakout sessions are gonna be curated

and, you know, sensory friendly.

So if you need to have your camera off, you can definitely have your camera off.

You don't have to be scaring, staring at your screen and things like that

to just really get you comfortable so your nervous system feels okay

to actually think of what to say.

I love that.

Well, and, and since it's a virtual event too, I think it's important to, uh-

Oh, yeah

… James: to remind everyone it is, it is virtual.

So everyone who is attending or if you're interested in attending, you

can do it from the comfort of your own home, your, uh- Yeah … office.

If you wanna j- I, I don't know if, uh, i- is- if it's all through Zoom, if they

can do it through a mobile device, um, or if they can have, uh, you know, how- Yeah

how they can connect and take part in this.

We're still working out the details, but- Okay … for now

it looks like, it looks like Zoom will be the, the platform, because

I'm really familiar with Zoom.

It has some great attributes and also, you know, things like that.

But we will, uh, we, we're working on it that way, so

whatever makes people comfortable.

And you know, I do like this idea of in-person events.

I'm in Chicago and I've done in-person events, and they've been very successful.

I used to do something called speed friending, and, uh, it was … I

didn't know it was neurodivergent coded, but apparently it was.

I've did it before.

I realized that, uh, I self-identify with autism.

But I would invite people to actually share something important about

who they are to make connections.

So there's three things that you need to share with people so that you can

make these authentic connections.

And James, we, we've already done it, and it just happened naturally for us.

It's history, hobbies, and habits.

We talked about each of those things, so we really were able to connect

with each other pretty quickly.

And I explain why they're important to talk to each other, and

then we go and do an exercise.

And so people actually have connected and they've not wanted to return or felt

the need to return to another event.

So I've ho- I've held onto, held off on putting, uh, in-person events together.

But the Social Connection Summit, I could see it being

something extravagant like that.

Uh, in a couple of years we'll have something together.

We'll get there.

Uh, yeah, that was our conversation yesterday, right?

Yeah.

We, uh, were on the phone for a while yesterday talking about that.

Um, I am a big believer in fellowshipping.

Yeah.

Um, I am a b- a big believer in it.

And I, uh, you know, 'cause that's where, like, the magic happens, you know?

And you, I mean, you, you had a taste of it last year where you had people who

were like, yeah, they want more of these opportunities of, um, you know, being

able to connect with each other in an informal way where it's not a, uh, you

know, curated, uh, workshop or a speech or, um, y- you know, speaking event.

It's a way that people can, you know, it's communicating.

Yeah.

Here's a direction.

Essentially walk this direction.

Right.

Like, here's a couple directions that you can go.

Go and walk.

I'm not gonna hold your hand as you go down there, but, uh, you know,

go talk to the people as they're walking in this direction too.

So that, I do believe in fellowship too.

I've struggled f- with, with it so long, and it feels so

good when you actually get it.

And the thing is, you just really have to believe that it's possible.

And I think a- attending an event where you see people who are speaking like you,

who are thinking like you, gives you hope that even after the event is over, you

can still find those kinds of people.

'Cause we're out here and we're realizing we need this fellowship too, and so

we're putting those things together.

And, um, so yeah.

Uh, you know, one of the things that I, I thought was important to talk about,

too, as, you know, we, we talk about fellowship and community and friendships.

I know I focus on creating these meaningful relationships means, like,

close connections with other people.

But, um, I've come to learn that community is a little different.

So we're out here looking for fellowship and community with other people.

Uh, fellowship I think is a little closer.

Like, we understand each other a little more.

It might be somebody in our community where we really like more than the

other person, something like that.

But when I talk about community, I think about those people who are working towards

the same goals that we're working towards.

Those are the people in our neighborhoods that we might say hi to, um, 'cause

they live in the same neighborhood, and we have a vested interest to

keep our neighborhood safe, perhaps.

If we're living in the same neighborhood, it's, it's safe to assume that.

But with community, in the autistic community, neurodivergence

community, there are people in here that you just don't like.

Like, there's people in here that you just cannot get along with, and, um,

it's part of being in a community.

And I think it's a real skill to be able to see those people, still say

hi, still recognize that you are interested in, in doing good for

whatever goal that you have in common, but not take it super personally that

maybe they don't like the same things that you like and never talk to them.

And I share this because that's one of the things that kept me

disconnected from other people.

I'm like, oh, I noticed something about you 'cause my pattern

recognition is off the charts.

I noticed a thing that you did.

Maybe you walked your dog and you didn't pick up after your dog.

I hate you forever now.

I can't talk to you.

But they're a part of my community, and I need to be able to talk to

them and perhaps even call them in and say, "Hey, bro," I mean, "Hey,

this is our community together.

Uh, you left your dog poo.

You know, you gotta, uh, clean that up or something." And be able to have that kind

of conversation and connect with them.

And maybe it won't always go the way you wanted it to go, but it's important to

be able to acknowledge that this person is here because you never know if your

house is on fire or something like that, and they see, they're gonna come help.

They might come help because they know you as part of the community.

So I, I think that there's a real skill also in building community.

And I brought this whole thing up because there's this disability debates,

there's… not, not debate, but more of like a, a conversation that people

have around, you know, neurodivergence and it being a superpower or not.

I think that's an important conversation to have

Great.

Oh, that was the, uh, the debate, uh, conversation, right?

Yeah.

We- I think that's fantastic.

Like, you had… I don't know, uh, 'cause you'd sent me a video yesterday.

I don't know if you'd put it up yet.

Um, but- No, I

haven't.

Oh, 'cause it's so great.

Oh, I should put it up.

Yeah.

I would, I would- We could drop the link in the show

notes, like everyone can enjoy.

It was Coach Lee and the, uh-

Yeah

… James: superpower versus disability, and it's, um… I'm a

believer it's possible to do both.

Um-

Yeah.

The- I originally wanted it to… I wanted to talk about it as a

debate, and when we first met, I had a con- We had a conversation about

that, and he was like, "No, no."

I was so mad.

Like, I was so freaking mad about it.

It was great.

But I, uh- Yeah … we were able to, you know, reconcile and figure out

what was going on with it, 'cause it wasn't a, um- I, I, I guess I, I just

mischaracterized it and I thought that-

And that, I, I think that, you know, our conversation

really helped me understand more about what I want it to be.

Right.

'Cause I don't want it to be a debate.

At the end of the day, nobody can tell you who you are and how you can be.

Nobody can tell you what label that you can assume.

Nobody can tell you how you really feel on the inside.

It's up to you to say those things for yourself and believe it for

yourself and to let the world respond.

But a, a debate signifies that at the end of the day, one side is going

to determine whether or not it's a superpower or a disability, and

that's not what I'm trying to do.

Right.

That's not what people … I'm, I'm not the, the autistic of all

autistics who can determine that.

I'm not that person, and I don't believe there is such a person.

So I wanted to have a discussion.

And so talking to you, I'm like, "Yeah, I'm, I'm not getting-- I'm not being clear

about what I'm saying. I'm, I'm not." And so it was very helpful to know that.

Um, but I think it's a conversation worth having and not really being

upset with people who identify how they identify and those things.

It's more curiosity is what I wanna bring to it.

And so your anger about it was like, oh, it made me realize

that that's not what I wanna do.

I don't wanna piss a bunch of people off.

I wanna call people in to have a conversation and learn from other people.

And so that, that made that adjustment.

It was, um

And by j- just to s- set it, the, uh, my original take on it was

that people would actually take the position that neurodivergence

doesn't qualify as a disability.

Yeah.

Um, and that was a, it was a slight, it was a

mischaracterization of it.

Um-

It, it, it- Well, I mean- I will, I will assume, I will

assume … No, no, 'cause I will also-

assume my role in it because I think, I really think it's the, uh,

I think it's the job of the person communicating to make- Right … sure

they get their point across.

And I clearly, clearly missed the mark.

It's like we're, we're- But I'm grateful for that.

Right.

It was great.

I mean, look, we're, it's, it's great now.

Um- Yeah … it, uh, but to, I mean, to the actual question of,

like, it being an and or or, this is what I, uh, this is really why

I started Applied Neurodivergence.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause when I came into the space, everything was coded, or mo- most

everything is coded towards the accommodation side, which would

be in the same wheelhouse as the disability, uh, versus a- ability,

which is what neurodivergence is all, Applied Neurodivergence

is all about the ability side.

And that's where, um, I hesitate to use the word superpower, but I would say that

those would be these situations where our cognitive ability really shines.

Yeah.

And it's, um, it, it's very, uh … So I think it's,

it's two sides of the same coin.

Um, but y- I, I don't think that each one is, like, mutually exclusive.

Yeah.

I'm starting, I, I'm, I'm feeling that way too.

Great.

And that I think we're, we're definitely gonna talk about that at the summit.

We're inviting four people to share their experiences about that, about, we

know, uh, it being a disability and it being a, a superpower essentially for it.

Because even in my own life I'm like, "Oh yeah, there are some

abilities I have that can shine."

Like pattern recognition, off the charts, right?

I'm able to do a lot of things other people aren't able to do

and put these pieces together.

But also sometimes I just can't.

Like human.

Right.

Period.

It's- And it's, it's hard.

Right.

Yeah, I, I agree.

And it's, um, a, a lot of the pattern recognition and, um,

different like cognitive abilities that we have developed, especially

if we're, um, later to the party.

I know that you're hesitant to use the word diagnosis, so I'm gonna try,

try to avoid that, but if we're later to the, um, identification of being

a neurodivergent person, um, it is, you know, we've had to develop things.

I mean, your coaching practice, um, is a testament to this.

You were able to put together a lot of communicat- communication systems, uh,

you know, trial and error, learning things the hard way, and this is a

whole scope of wisdom that you're now able to share with people so they can

become better communicators themselves.

Um, you know, built it up, uh, we, you know, figuring things out for ourselves.

Anyone who's later identified is gonna have similar systems in place.

Um, and I think it's awesome- Mm-hmm … um, that we're given a, um- I, I guess

an event that we can network with each other and connect with each other

and share some of these experiences.

Uh, 'cause there's a big difference between early identification

versus late identification.

Yeah.

I, I believe so too.

I mean, the early identified, and I don't know, I'm not one of

them, but I c- obviously, right?

But I would guess that if you had help understanding yourself sooner rather than

later, you'd have more, uh, advantages to knowing what really works for you and

what doesn't work for you, advocating for yourself, and lots of practice,

like decades of practice that I didn't get that I now have to, one, unlearn

the things that I did learn so that I can now, two, relearn things that I

need to that are really gonna help me.

And so they didn't have to go through this unlearning process

that I have to go through.

It, it's true.

Uh, at the same time, like I, I had written a, um… and I, I

was gonna post this on LinkedIn.

I didn't do it yet.

It's a, uh… I compare early identification to late di- identification.

It's the difference between PVE and PVP when it comes to like, um…

It's a video game reference.

Um- Like what is

that?

Yeah

… James: uh, PVE stands for player versus environment, and PVP

stands for player versus player.

Okay.

So in an MMO situation, similar like World of Warcraft, okay?

Uh, PVE, someone who goes out and they're just doing all the, um, in-game content

for, you know, questing, and they're just fighting NPC monsters and whatnot.

Um, and it's very curated experience.

Uh, PVP is like the Wild West.

You're out there and anyone can attack anyone at any time.

And it is a very, um, hosti- it, it's hostile.

Uh, but at the same time, a PV play, PVP player after having to

survive this hostile environment gets very, very skilled at the game.

So if you take a PVP player and drop them in a PVE environment,

they don't have a problem.

You take a PVE player who's been playing the entire time, um, drop them in PVP

and it's lights out pretty quickly.

Um, so I… and it's, I don't, um, and it, maybe that's not an apt metaphor,

but it is, I think it stands that if you get an early identification or

early diagnosis, you get structure.

You know, like you said, structure to build.

You get structure of who you are.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you get seen, you get supported.

Uh, those of us who are late identified, we never had that.

Uh, so where someone else has structure, we have scars.

And it's- Mm … really, you know, 'cause those, those are lessons

we had to learn the hard way.

You know, you s- say something out of turn in a meeting and

you get admonished for it.

Um-

Mm.

Uh, you get different, you know, a lot of things that we had to, um,

experience that thankfully early, you know, and I'm very thankful that a lot of

early, uh, identified people haven't had to, 'cause there were some hard lessons.

And I think to how many people, um, didn't make it.

You know, there's, um, what, what is it?

The, the suicidal ideation, someone with AUDHD, I think is

eight times higher than average.

Wow.

And I think back to people who I have, you know, we've lost a lot of

neurodivergent brothers and sisters along the way who, you know, to what

you spoke on earlier, to substance use.

Um, you know- Mm-hmm … o- overdoses.

Um, how many have we lost to suicide?

People who were literally neurodivergent and were just trying to survive.

their

life and they weren't able to do it because no one saw that.

They never had the structure.

So we have survived this long, and now we get this clarity on how our cognition

works and how our nervous system works.

And to, um, you know, re- receive that later on.

We, we survived it.

Um, but people who are like- Now it's time to

thrive

… James: right, exactly.

Well, now we- exactly.

Now we get to, which is beautiful.

Um, but I- that's one thing I love about the social connection summit is

we're putting a pl- but giving people a place where they can congregate

with people who have also experienced life as a neurodivergent person.

Yes.

Who has not been seen- Right … and who's tried all the things that

neurotypical people suggest that they try.

Right.

And perhaps they have been really frustrated with the fact that

it doesn't work, and they're silently shaming themselves.

They're like, "It should work.

You know, it should be super easy for me to do this.

I don't know why I feel like I don't wanna do anything today." Like, all

this procrastination or whatever that they're really struggling

with, figuring out what to eat.

I know that's one of my things that I struggled with.

But what has always helped me is more information about what is going on.

So why am I doing this or what's, what's behind it?

And those pieces are what's missing because, of course,

there wasn't the research for it.

There wasn't anyone sharing this information or taking it seriously.

So enough for some of the demographics that are struggling with it.

So I'm a Black trans man and they're completely missed by all the things that

s- you know, uh, other people who have had privilege to, you know, be able to,

uh, recognize their diagnosis, right?

Whether or not it is early diagnosis or late diagnosis or late identification.

Um, even research wasn't focused on my demographic.

But we're now, we're seeing lots of research come out about the

intersectionality of how queerness and, um, neurodivergence are

very, very linked, and we're seeing a lot of things like that.

And so this year the summit is meant to talk to those kinds of people who

have been essentially missed by what autism looks like for other people.

'Cause like, uh, autism for me, when I discovered what it was, I thought it

was just for white men or white boys.

Those, those were autistic people, and nobody else could be.

Neurodivergence was for them.

And so the summit this year is more so about those people who have been missed.

They're, they're women, they're Black, they're trans.

The, for the identity piece, they're just not sort of the face

of what autism is for others.

And then there's the biology piece.

Well, I mean, you talked about the substance.

We talked about the substance.

It's like because we have this dopamine deficiency, many of

us, our bodies are different.

They respond different.

Our biology's a bit different, and there's research to talk about that as well.

So we wanna bring that to the table, and those women who are going through

perimenopause and menopause, well, perimenopause can start a lot sooner

in ADHD and au- autistic brains than it would in allistic brains.

And it's, it's, uh, pretty awful.

But it's good to know if you, like, if you want to know yourself, right?

Essentially, if you wanna connect with other people, you wanna feel

comfortable with who you are, you wanna feel like you wanna have an

understanding of why you feel so tired.

The biology piece, we're gonna talk about that.

And then finally, the cultural piece.

We're gonna talk about the culture of this neurodivergence and what it looks

like in different communities and, um, because it's not always accepted,

that there are some communities that say, "ADHD, no, you're just

bad. You're just running around doing things that you shouldn't do."

That's how it was as a kid.

Um, "You're just getting into trouble.

You just can't pay attention.

You just don't like school.

You need to be shamed and, and smacked upside the head." Um, you know,

autism, wh- what is that? Even if you late diagnosed or late identified

and you come out and you say to your family you're autistic, "What?

That's not anything.

That's not for us.

We don't-- We're not autistic people.

That's, that's not real.

You're just making stuff up.

You just don't like to be with family.

You come downstairs and join us at the Thanksgiving dinner and stop

complaining, uh, that it's noisy." Like, there's no acceptance for that,

and so there's part of the culture.

So these three pillars this year, we focused really on the specific

experiences that people are having outside of just saying I'm

neurodivergent in the workplace.

How does it show up in my life, in real life?

How does it show up in my life, and what can I learn to help

me better, um, navigate my relationships, my- myself in life?

So that's what we're really focused on this year.

I love that 'cause it's, uh, seem- seems to be, um, moving a little bit

away from the professional side of things and into the personal side of things.

Um-

Yes, and

the- Which is like… I'm sorry.

No, go ahead.

No, you know, I, I, I guess I wanna talk a whole lot today 'cause

Right.

No, you're, you're the, you're the gu- you're the guest of honor, Lee.

We got you.

Okay.

Yeah, so, uh, definitely, um, what I've found is that I've really tried

to separate personal and professional life, and that is not possible.

You are who you are wherever you go.

It's how you decide to present in these different places.

But with neurodivergence, it's gonna be different.

It's not gonna be different.

Like, how you feel about yourself at home is probably how you're gonna act at work.

And if you try and change everything to be perfect at work and focus

on productivity at work, then who are you gonna be at home?

Exhausted, tired?

Like, what, we, we need to, to reconcile that and call yourself

a whole person, and then decide.

Like, recognize your, your body chemistry, your energy levels, your

preferred method of communication, because it doesn't stop at work.

I mean, it, it, it starts at life.

It starts at home.

It's, uh, I think that's an important distinction to make, uh,

because for a neurotypical employee, uh, they would consider something

to be relaxing, like going to hang out with coworkers after work.

That's a relaxing activity for them.

Meanwhile, neurodivergence, after the amount of bandwidth it takes

to mask through a workday, um, you come home, and I would wa- You know,

I can only speak for myself, but I would be super tired, you know?

Absolutely wiped out.

Uh, because it does take, not only do I have to do the job, but I

have to mask through doing the job.

Mm-hmm.

So it takes up so much more mental bandwidth.

And it isn't, um, you know, and that has an effect on, um,

interpersonal relationships.

You know, I don't wanna talk to anyone.

I just need to deflate.

I just need to be alone.

And, uh, meanwhile, I have all these demands on my attention, uh, you know,

as soon as I walk in the door at home.

So it's really, uh, important to make that distinction between, like,

the neurotypical and the neuro- the neurodivergent's after-work

experience and personal experience.

Yeah, that sounds a lot like my personal experience too.

And I didn't have a wife or kids, so I didn't have anybody

else vying for my attention.

I was just like, "Oh, I can just lay down," and that was it.

And I would not wanna, like, go out and socialize either, uh, 'cause

that seemed like it was hard to find the right people, and just, blah.

But definitely relatable.

It's, um, you know, and d- living sober too is totally different,

'cause there was a time when after work I would love going to the bar.

And, um, you know, start, as, as soon as I start drinking, it would really take away

that, um, that s- sense of social anxiety.

So I could get it.

Um, however, it's not a, um, it's not a healthy, h- healthy way of- interacting

No, yeah.

Um, it's, you know, and I look at those things too, and if anybody's listening and

thinking, oh, you know, if they're there and they, they feel a bit of shame for

drinking and so forth, it's, it's okay.

I would say at this point, you know what you know, and you do what you, you do.

And, um, you might look back on it one day a- and tell a story like we're telling.

Right.

Absolutely.

And I, I think it's important too that it's not… E- everyone's different, and

it doesn't matter what, um, you know, me personally, I know I cannot have a

healthy relationship with alcohol or cannabis or really anything, um, just

because I am the way I am, and that's me.

But other people might do it.

You know, there might be s- people who are, um, neurodivergent

and they can drink socially.

You know, they can go and have half a, half a drink or two

drinks, um, and they're fine.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, to me, I can't do that, 'cause anytime, I would drink alcoholically.

Anytime I drank it was to get drunk.

It wasn't, you know, there wasn't an off switch.

Um, which I think speaks to some of the other neurodivergent experience

of us being, uh, maximizers.

Oh,

yeah.

Especially with the ADHD component, where we'll take things to

like, there's no middle ground.

It's either like- Yeah … full, you know, bad out of hell or fast asleep.

There's no, we, we, we don't come with an off switch.

So it's like you apply that to like substance use, apply it to

work, apply it to anything, and no wonder we get burned out.

Yeah, absolutely.

You have to do it to the max.

Right.

And so the, the, the things that we can choose to do, like knowing that, let's

say it's one of the part of the things, like knowing that and how we function and

our cognition is being able to choose, like kind of swap out what we apply so

much focus to, and being able to, to be like, "Okay, I wanna try something new."

And if you struggle to actually let go of the thing that you dislike but you're

just like, "I really, really wanna do it," that's part of your cognition to know.

That's part of your pattern to actually know that you're struggling to, to let

go of something, like a job that you absolutely hate for some reason, but you

wanna be the best at it for some reason.

There's, for some reason, is a space to put a actual reason, and there

are experts, there are people with experience that know what the reason

is that can help you out of that space.

So it's, it's, it's a great advantage to know more about yourself and who you

are, and that's what we're all about.

We're that.

As Autistic, I'd love to learn more about me.

Just like it's-

Great

… Coach Lee: wonderful.

Does that, does that mean we're like, are, are, are

we like self-obsessed, say?

I would say that I am.

Selfish or like, I don't know.

I don't know if that's-

I would-

Well-

I would not say it's, I would not say it's… I would say it's selfish.

Okay, there's, there's like, there is this idea that selfish means that you only care

about you, and everybody else is going to suffer because you only care about you.

Right.

And I think that is a, a not, I don't like the way that looks because I would

say that I'm a selfish person, but I care about the things that I care

about, and I, that includes people That includes people that I have in my life.

Like, if there is something that is important to a person who is

important to me, I'm going to do the thing to help that person because I'm

selfish, I care about their wellbeing.

It's, if they're not feeling good, I don't feel good, and that's

how I look at being selfish.

And I think it was weaponized against people who thought differently

or who felt like they didn't wanna do things that hurt them.

Like for example, getting together for family gatherings, and the family

gathering, let's say, is just kinda messy and people are always yelling at each

other and it doesn't feel comfortable.

And they're just like, "You know, I'm gonna set boundaries this year," after

you've moved out of the house, they moved away, "I'm gonna set boundaries this year.

You know, I'm not gonna come home for Christmas.

I'm not gonna come home for Thanksgiving.

I'm not gonna come home for a holiday." "Well, you're selfish.

You're selfish." And that's how it's been used.

And so- … I think it's weaponized.

Like, no- That's so fine … yeah, you're selfish.

I, yes- Right … I'm doing something that feels good for me, doing something

that feels good for me, and they're saying that you're, they're suffering

because you are choosing yourself.

Because of your boundaries.

Mm-hmm.

That's such bullshit.

Like, I, and this, I, I get it, and it's kinda where, um, when you're

talking about that idea of being, like, knowing yourself, okay?

And if you know yourself and you know your limits, naturally you're gonna put

those, you know, establish those limits as boundaries, especially interfacing

with the allistic world, right?

And a- any, and so then I look at anyone who, like, sees a violation of, uh,

uh, sees you putting up boundaries as a problem for them is a massive red flag for

me Um- Yeah … 'cause, like, I do, I, it, it's like I, I firmly believe in helping

people, and one thing my mom would always tell me, she's like, you know, "Do not…

It's awesome to help people.

Do not help people to the point of self-detriment."

Yes.

And that's an important boundary, but I think as especially

early, um, y- you know, unidentified neurodivergent people tend to get

taken advantage of because one of our coping mechanisms is people-pleasing.

Um- Yeah … it goes back to our, you know, that, um, ADHD, that, uh,

fi- 'cause we're always in constant fight, flight, or freeze mode.

But with neurodivergence, we add in the a- the, the extra one, the fawn.

'Cause fawning is another way of, uh, navigating social situations, and

it's, it manifests as people-pleasing.

And when people see that, they'll take advantage of it.

So it's, you know, when someone's been taken advantage of and suddenly

they put up that boundary of like, "No, no, no, I'm not doing this

anymore," and whoever was taking the advantage of them suddenly calls them

selfish or, you know, reacts- Mm-hmm

adversely instead of being supportive, it's interesting to me because

their reaction is actually selfish.

'Cause they're like, "Oh, well, you putting up this boundary, look how

this affects me." You know, "Look how this affects… Now I look bad because

you're not doing X, Y, and Z." It's like I, you know… Sorry, Bambi.

Yeah.

The, you know, I'm with you 100%.

Great.

Like, I'm over here, too bad you guys can't see video, I'm over here

laughing because it is, it is so real.

And one of the things that, that gets us a lot, and I teach my clients about this,

is that you are going to experience this.

If you've been people-pleasing, people are going to try and shame, guilt,

and embarrass you so that you will be the small person that you are,

so you'll start doing the fawning.

But you practice.

You just practice recognizing that that person is- Really taking advantage of you.

And you decide whether or not you wanna stay in that situation.

You get to the, you get the agency.

It's all, it's all to you.

But you're definitely going to see it, and so your nervous system

is gonna get wrecked when they tell you that you're selfish.

You are going to not feel good, and you're going to ruminate.

You may ruminate about it, 'cause those are things I did.

"Oh, did I do the wrong thing?" I'll tell you a quick story,

um, about when I was dating.

So, uh, back in the day I, I did a date and I, I went on Craigslist to look

for… I don't judge anybody trusting me.

But, uh, seriously, I went, uh, on Craigslist 'cause it

was like, you know, what?

I think in 2012 or something like that.

Whatever.

But I, I met someone, and I'd been dating people and, um, taking them

out 'cause I had this idea that I pay for a date, I pay for all the things.

And I was running out of money 'cause I was going to places like

Cheesecake Factory and not really getting any connections with others.

So this n- next person I met was like, "You know, hey, you

seem a really cool person.

Um, let's go…" I split our date, split it half and half, and they were like,

"Yeah, okay, I don't wanna do that.

I'm not gonna go if you do that." I'm like, "Dang, okay.

This could be the, the love of my life that I'm missing out on." So I decided

I would take them to, um, a fast casual kind of restaurant like Bob Evans.

So you're familiar with Bob Evans or Denny's, something like that.

And I picked them up and they said, as they walked in the door of the

restaurant, they said, "I'm gonna get the most expensive thing on

the menu." And I laughed because I thought they were being ridiculous.

Like, that's a funny joke.

I just told you I was trying to save money.

I just told you that I'd, I'd like to take you out and learn more about you,

but I don't wanna spend a ton of money.

And so they, um, sat down.

I sat down, and they no doubt ordered the most expensive thing

on the menu, uh, the salmon.

And I was like, "What the f… What?" And I was really angry at that time.

I was really angry, and so I ended up, um, actually raising my voice towards the

waitress, and I said, "No, don't take her order," and raised the voice towards my

date, said, "No, you get something else."

I was reaching a point where I was so frustrated.

But what I had missed is that They had been saying all along that they were

gonna take advantage of me, in plain English actually, in plain English.

I said I wanted to do something kind of cheap, or I wanted to

split the date, and they were like, "No, you're gonna do it my way."

And I was like, "Okay, I don't want you to… I, I, I, I wanna, I wanna

date, so yeah." And then I take them to the place, and I was thinking that,

well, they would be considerate of me.

No, they're being selfish or considerate of themselves, not considering

me at all, and they wanted the most expensive thing on the menu.

And I don't remember what happened after that.

I don't remember when, if we stayed for the meal or whatnot, but it was over.

Um, that pattern recognition that I, I see now, hindsight is 20/20, but I see now is

something that we could develop earlier.

So it's gonna feel uncomfortable to say no.

You're gonna feel that.

I, I recommend that anybody who struggles with it test it to see if they're

really, quote, selfish with others.

There's… Everybody really just focuses on what they want, what they

need, whether they know it or not, and if you are going to be a, a force for

whatever you want in your life, whatever values and goals that you have, you

really do have to put yourself first.

That is the hierarchy, and everybody's operating, from my point of view,

everybody's operating at that level.

They're doing things that benefit them always.

And so you must also do things that benefit you and

say no when it comes to it.

Learning about yourself, how you feel is one of those things too.

I, I think that's awesome point to drive home, um, for anyone who

is, uh, neurodivergent and especially struggling with the people-pleasing

thing because it feels guilty to say no after a lifetime of, of this.

All right.

Mm-hmm.

Well, Coach Lee, listen, we are just about out of time.

Uh, do you have any parting shots or any last, last-minute messages

for the audience you want to, uh, want them to walk away from?

Oh, yeah,

definitely.

Walk away from this episode with?

Uh, yeah.

Uh, like I know I just… I think I just dropped the mic on that last thing.

Right.

Like learn more about yourself.

It's the biggest thing.

You're not selfish.

Uh, come to the Social Connection Summit 2026.

It's happening September 23rd and September 24th.

I believe that James has some amazing tickets for you that give

you 10% off, so use his code.

I think I'll tell you about that as well, but it's going to be, uh, our

biggest event yet, and we are still looking for people to join us, to, uh,

be in fellowship with us, of course, uh, share with others people, so,

um- Yeah, socialconnectionsummit.com.

Follow me on LinkedIn, TikTok.

I'm out there too.

Absolutely.

Um, okay, so, uh, one last thing, Coach Lee, where can anyone find you online?

Oh, yeah So where… Let's, um, yeah, go ahead and plu- plug your services

or, uh- Oh, yeah, if you wanna work with me directly, if you wanna work

with me with, uh, work and life, building these relationships with

yourself and others, you can find me at patternsofpossibility.com.

And I also have a podcast in all social media.

You'll be able to find me, just search patternsofpossibility.com.

Okay, and I'll drop all the contact information in the show notes.

Okay, uh, Coach Lee, absolute pleasure having you on the show today.

Thank you so much for, for joining us.

It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah.

Okay, and everyone, thank you for tuning in to another episode of The Sight Side.

Uh, like Coach Lee said, we got the, um, Social Connection Summit is coming up.

I will have,

um, ticket information will be in the show notes, and we'll

continue plugging this all summer-

Mm-hmm

… James: um, to, to push it.

I wanna thank everyone for tuning in again, uh, to The Sight Side.

Uh, it's been wonderful having you.

We will catch you guys in a couple more days with another wonderful episode.

Thank you again, everyone.

Stay safe out there.

Bye-bye.