Guest: Genie Love, M.Ed. (Founder of NeuroAutonomy)

Episode Summary

In our first guest episode, James sits down with Genie Love to pull back the curtain on the "High-Performing until suddenly they’re not" pattern. With 25 years of experience spanning special education and executive coaching, Genie explains why traditional productivity advice fails neurodivergent brains and how both individuals and organizations can move toward Applied Neurodivergence—treating unique cognitive wiring as an asset rather than a liability.

Key Discussion Points

1. The Late-Diagnosis Lens: The difference between early support and discovering your neurodivergence in your 40s or 50s, and the process of "looking back" to forgive your inner critic.
2. The Duck Metaphor: Understanding masking fatigue—the cost of appearing calm and "neurotypical" on the surface while pedaling furiously underneath.
3. Executive Function Breakdown: Why smart, capable professionals suddenly hit a wall, and how "tripping over the pebble" of small daily frustrations leads to total overwhelm.
4. Discarding Generic Productivity: Why "eating the frog" or the "two-minute rule" can actually be detrimental for ADHD and Autistic brains.
5. Bottom-Up Systems: Genie’s approach to building personalized scaffolding, including her color-coded regulation system for managing overstimulation in real-time.
6. The ROI of Retention: Why it is cheaper and more effective for organizations to coach and retain neurodivergent talent than to let them burn out and face the costs of turnover.

Notable Quotes

1. "You always trip over the pebble on the path; you don't trip over the mountain."
2. "They've been working their whole lives to meet us where we want them to be... maybe we can meet them a little more where they are."

Resources & Links

1. NeuroAutonomy: neuroautonomy.com
2. Connect with Genie on LinkedIn: Genie Love, M.Ed.

Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Site Side.

I'm your host, James Hickey.

As someone late diagnosed with both autism and A DHD, I know exactly what

it's like to spend decades navigating a world without knowing what your

hardware is actually capable of.

Today's a milestone for us.

We are at episode four and our very first guest episode.

Joining me today is Jeannie Love, with 25 years of experience in special

education and executive coaching.

Jeannie is an expert in.

Helping Neurodivergent professionals stop fighting their own nature and start

building systems for sustainable success.

Today we're diving deep into masking burnout and the reality of

neurodivergence in the workplace.

Jeannie, welcome to the show.

Yeah, thanks James for inviting me to be here.

I appreciate it.

Um, a little bit about my background.

Um, instead, I've kind of always been a nerd about people

and how their brains work.

Um, my first degree in, you know, straight outta high school

was as a physical therapist.

And when I follow sort of the path that my career has taken, it makes

sense that really the kind of physical therapy I enjoyed doing was for

people who had, had brain injuries.

So maybe, um, a stroke or some kind of a. You know, accident that caused a

brain injury because of everything that you need to do in order to figure out

how to help them relearn how to live their lives is unique to each individual

because of the wiring of the brain.

And so if we move forward a little bit, I ended up in this rural part of Colorado

and I couldn't really do that kind of brain injury, physical therapy work.

And so as I was.

Spending time as a young ski bum and working multiple jobs.

I ended up in schools and I started working with students who had learning

disabilities, and for almost 20 years I worked with students who,

who needed significant amount of support to be successful in school.

I also worked with students who needed a little less support.

To be successful in school.

But as I kind of worked through that, I really mostly enjoyed working with

students who had a DHD or autism.

And I think it's because really all of this work was at the high school level.

And when you're working with kids like that, it's like, how do we navigate.

This world, how do you, how do we learn how to play the game of

school so that you can get what you want, which is good grades and

a diploma and all of those things.

And so how can we make the system of school work for you?

Um, so I did that for almost 20 years.

Some of it I had the opportunity to be in South America, which was really cool.

And when we came back in 2020.

I realized I needed to do something different because my daughter, who was

seven at the time was having her own significant challenges, big emotional

outbursts, and I realized there was no way I was gonna be able to go back

to public education and help other kids and also have the energy and

bandwidth to be a good mother to her,

right?

So I left teaching.

Then I was like, oh, well what am I gonna do now?

I, I'm halfway through my career.

I've got 20 years ahead of me, and I was researching and interviewing

and all these things, and that's when I realized that there's a lot of

adults who are finding out later in life that they have a DHD or autism,

right?

And

so I thought it might be something of interest to them

to share the strategies that I've learned along the way.

So that's when I started.

This coaching program.

And so it's just kind of been an evolution since then.

That's amazing.

Okay, so I wanted to ask you, so um, before you got into a special

education environment, um, what was your perception of neurodivergence before

you really came face to face with it?

I mean, this was, this was so long ago.

This was in 2002, and so there's just, um.

I mean, if you can think about your age in 2002 or the listener,

like, what were you doing in 2002?

There was just not as much information back then.

Right.

Um, you know, even at.

I mean, yeah, I don't even know how to describe it.

So we would have autistic students, but mostly they were like significantly

impacted and struggling at school.

Absolutely not the like, you know, ones who are okay in academics,

but struggling in other ways.

So we didn't even have that back in 2002.

So the understanding of Neurodivergence was much different back then.

Maybe the kid, the troublemaker boy who had trouble sitting

still might have a DHD.

Maybe there was an autistic misdiagnosis as a DHD.

There was definitely dyslexia, but it was just like, um, yeah, it was.

We didn't have as much of an understanding as we do, you know now.

Right.

Well back then, uh, 'cause personally I'm a, um, level one a SD, uh, which

used to be Asperger's back in 2002.

2001. Yes.

And then they switched it.

Um, and now it's considered level one.

Um, but I agree.

Um, you know, I graduated high school in 1998 and when I was growing

up and going through all these things, I was always, you know.

Always struggling with Scholastics.

I was always struggling with, um, you know, with school paying attention.

Um, you know, executive function back then was always a major, major

hassle for me, and I never knew what was, you know, what the, you know,

what, what the actual prognosis was.

I didn't have a, no one saw me.

Yeah.

No one saw me.

Right.

Um, so this is, I mean, this is one of the reasons why I wanted to

ask you on the show is because of your, um, your work with obviously

late, late identified or later identified, um, neurodivergent people.

Um, so before we get into that, um, since you've seen both sides

of the spectrum as far as, um.

You know, coming into education and seeing people in a classroom, obviously with

their daughter being seven years old and seeing what the emotion, uh, emotional

outbursts and neurodivergence there, what would you say, um, in your professional

opinion, is the main difference between an early diagnosis or a late diagnosis?

I think now what I'm seeing as I have some younger clients who have

known that they had a DHD for a longer period of time than my adult clients.

They are much, they have a better vocabulary.

To talk about what their challenges are.

I think that is now more understood.

And so like where you didn't have vocabulary to describe executive

function, your teachers probably told your parents in conferences, like he just

needs to focus more and work harder, and he is not living up to his potential.

Now we have a vocabulary for that, and so they know themselves better.

And so they know what they need to work on.

So they're at a different starting point where my clients who are

diagnosed later in their life, in their forties, their fifties, I

have clients in their seventies.

It's more like, wait, what?

Like what?

What is all of this mean?

This is the just like you.

This is the thing that is been going on with me for this long.

And then they just wanna learn everything they can about it.

Then that gets overwhelming because now there's so much information out there

that they don't even know where to start.

And so then that also becomes sort of a challenge that we work

through as like how to slow down and just get to know yourself.

And so there's a lot of work that has to, that we do with

later diagnosed adults to just.

Get to know yourself, your brain, what was maybe some masking that you were doing?

How can we start to pull that, you know, peel that away a little bit.

And then build systems that work for you.

So the vocabulary and all of that, it's very different.

Um, right.

It's a, um, you know, I've noticed through, um, you know, the more

I get involved in the neurodivergent community, I've seen that a, uh, there

is a kind of a gulf there between the early diagnosis and the late diagnosis.

Uh, mainly in what you said about getting, uh, you know, scaffolding and structure.

Um, they get that, um, sense of.

Uh, I, I, I would almost say v uh, validation from, um, you know, from

peers, from teachers, people actually making, they might not understand, um,

but they're sympathetic and they make that effort to understand and say, okay, well

maybe this is part of a larger, you know, larger, you know, neurodiverse, you know.

Pro, you know, you have some serious, um, it is a serious diagnosis versus

you just being like a one off, like just a troublemaker, just a, um, you

know, where they just kind of write you off, throw you in the detention, you

know, detention or the, um, you know, acting out in school, going into like,

um, at risk youth programs and whatnot.

Um, or they just kind of push it off instead of now I feel that it's

taking a little bit more seriously.

Yeah.

And I think too that there's a community, right?

Um, for people who now know.

So it's like, even my daughter, she's got some books.

She understands who she is, she runs into other people who has

it, have a DHD or sees it on, you know, social media or whatever.

So she's a, she's a member of a community where.

Later diagnosed people didn't get that when they were young.

Right.

I, um, you know, and I can, I can relate to that, uh, personally

as a late diagnosed person myself, it mostly gave me a lens.

Uh, it gave me a lot of clarity.

You know, I would think back to different situations I've been in in my life

and I'm like, well, why did I do that?

Well, obviously, you know that autism, that's why, you know,

it's just like, okay, you didn't know what I was dealing with.

And, um, you mentioned.

Earlier about, uh, you know, masking, and that's one of

the things that I dealt with.

Um, during our introduc introductory talk, we got into a little bit about

the, uh, substance use disorder, which is, you know, very rampant in

the A DHC, um, autism, I would say neurodiverse community at large.

It's something that's not really talked about too much.

Um, and personally I used it as a means of, you know, cognitive regulation.

I wasn't necessarily using for escape.

It was just, it made things a lot more bearable.

I guess, um, so I, I wanted to, um, I just wanted to mention that 'cause is

that something that you run into more with the late diagnosed or do you find

with like early diagnosed people, maybe they're asking questions about it?

I guess I would say like, let's just go ahead and say here

that like most of my clients are later diagnosed at this point.

And so I really can speak more from their perspective and masking

does come up in the conversation.

Um, and I believe it's because, you know, they've been trying

to put on the face that is gonna make other people happy, right?

Performing, if you will.

So that can be in school, like, how can I please my teachers?

What is it that they want from me?

What do my peers want from me?

And that's a really, you know, formidable time.

And so we just kind of carry that with us.

That's such a, that's such like a, a neurodivergent, fra phrasing

though, because you have, uh, you have generally like the fight or

flight Yeah, which comes up a lot.

But when neurodivergence comes in, then you add the fawn, it's

like fight flight or fawning.

And I found that the people pleasing aspect is a massive part

of, uh, massive part of masking.

Absolutely.

Because being socially acceptable.

Is like part of what I mean, that's how we navigate life.

And so especially when we're young and we're navigating relationships

with peers and with teachers and with parents and the other adults in

our lives, and moving into the adult world is not a whole lot different.

We still have peers, coworkers, sometimes coworkers aren't a lot

different than middle school kids.

You know, like if you don't fit in, they're gonna, you know.

So we still have to behave in a certain way.

We're still trying to please leaders and give them what they want.

And so, and our partners, uh, so we have that too.

And, um, so yeah, there's a, a little bit, and it's like delicate work.

It's very hard for me to describe, but it's just more of like, who are you?

What are your passions?

Let's bring more of that out.

Let's take more time to just kind of have downtime and rest.

Um, to get out of fight or flight and then move more towards the direction

of what excites you and that often.

Kind of helps them become more in tune with who they are.

And when they're doing their passions, their hobbies, then they can put their

mask down a little bit more, right?

And get to know themselves a little

bit.

It, it is easy, I would say, to get overwhelmed.

Um, and I have to, uh, sometimes force myself to pause, uh, because if I am in

like overstimulation mode, I am going to react to a situation from a place of

that overwhelm, of that overstimulation.

Um, if I could pause and take a breath.

You know, just kind of, kind of pause and sit back for a minute.

Then I'm able to respond, uh, which is, you know, it's calculated.

It's, you know, responding from a place of reason as opposed to

reacting from a place of emotion.

Uh, but that's a really, that, that's something that I would say I had to

learn, you know, learn through the years, uh, through quite a bit of.

You know, trial and error as far as trying to figure out what works and

what situation, which one doesn't.

Uh, and a lot of times it would be different masks.

You know, I would wear one mask when I was in a social situation versus

another one when I was in like work mode.

So it's almost like putting on these different personas, um,

which is really, you know, that I don't wanna tie that into.

Um, one, one of the reasons I really wanted you on this.

Um, on the site side is, as I was looking through some of your background,

what really jumped out to me is, um, how you work with, you know, A DHD

autistic professionals who are high performing until suddenly they're not.

And that actually made me laugh out loud because that's like a, that speaks to my

A DHD side in so many ways, because I will be all about something until that novelty

wears off, until the shine wears off.

The second it stops being novel and starts becoming a chore.

Then suddenly, you know, the performance drops, whether it's in the workplace,

whether it's in a hobby, whether it's doing, you know, friendship.

A lot of things have, uh, you know, it'll have like a shelf life, so to speak.

Um, so I wanna dive into that a little bit with your, um, you know,

how you came up with that phrasing and what you do, um, you know, how

you, how you apply that in your work.

Um.

I would say often.

So here are some of the things that my clients come with, um, that is

like, it's like kind of the last thing that pushes them over the edge.

And so they've been holding it together for as long as they can.

And then there's one more thing that pushes 'em over the edge

and then suddenly they're not.

And so to, in the workplace environment, then they suddenly start dropping balls.

Or they're a little bit more emotional or the overwhelm kind of thing, which

leads to heightened emotions and they can look like anger and frustration, or

it can also look like tears and melt.

Like it can look a lot of different ways, but it's just like emotional meltdown.

Um, and it's just that one more thing that pushes them over the edge.

So people come to me because they, um, are having challenges with partners.

It might be.

Um, there's something going on with their kids.

Um, it might be, I have people who have gone going back to grad school.

Um, and so now they've got one more thing.

And it might be, you know, because of perimenopause, I'm getting women

in their late forties, uh, who are going through perimenopause.

It's just like, it's just like the next thing has pushed them and then

it all just kind of falls apart.

Then that's it.

And it's just like all the systems that they had in place to hold it together.

Like it's just not anymore.

And when that's happening, you just exactly said at the beginning,

it's like managing the overwhelm.

And so what we do, and this is what I encourage leaders to do, whoever is

supporting these people in the workplace, this is the work we do in coaching,

is like taking a step back because, um, even now I'm thinking about it.

I just have to like take a deeper breath to slow myself down.

Because what we wanna do is jump in, like, it's like that's our initial

reaction then, and be like, well let's try this, let's try this, let's try this.

But what we really need to do is slow down and get a little bit

more in control of our emotions.

So like you said, pause and breathe.

And I actually, that's where we start.

Is that throughout the day.

So we'll get like these little tiny one or two minute mindfulness

practices and we'll do several of them until we find the one that one

or two that really resonate with you.

And then we just schedule 'em all throughout the day, like four times a

day to just pause and slow yourself down.

Because we get into these cycles of like, if I just keep going

and going and going, I'll stay on top of it and that doesn't work.

It all just kind of gets kind of crazy and fuzzy in the brain and we

get that's what leads to overwhelm.

So what we actually have to do is build in time to slow down, just like you said.

And that's where we start.

Um, let me ask, 'cause you work with both, you work with both

leadership, you know, management and you work with, you know, actual employees.

So let's, um, I, I'm interested to hear your perspective on this.

So let's say we have a situation where there is an actual

executive function breakdown.

Okay?

Someone's, you know, they're doing something on a certain, they're on.

Excel doing spreadsheets, and suddenly they just go over, get

overwhelmed and have a meltdown.

You know, they're trying, they're crying uncontrollably, they're shaking.

They get up and run.

You know, a lot of times they'll run and go to a different, you know, safe space

locked in the bathroom, you know, could, could, you know, it's, it's different

for everyone, but it is a, um, let's say that it, it is a threshold moment, okay?

It's something that causes, it causes a disruption.

Um, obviously other people in the workplace are gonna notice when you are.

Talking about that situation, what, how would you frame it?

Both when you're talking to the person, you know, the client actually having the

meltdown, versus when you're explaining it to their supervisor or manager,

same situation, but you're looking at it through two different lenses.

Could you walk me through what those conversations would look like?

Yeah, and I mean, I can just give you the best that I can.

Again, it's just on a case by case basis, right?

Right.

Like what's, what are the people giving me?

But generally, it looks like this.

We, there's education for leadership.

So what is a DHD, what is autism?

And this sort of like, um, emotional, uh, side of that that is gaining more

attention but is underappreciated.

So this is actually part of it, and that's what's happened is they've

just been pushed to the limit.

Actually, we all, all of us know what it is like to be pushed

to the limit and we lose it.

So we can start from that.

We know what it's like to be in times of stress for whatever reason,

whether it's financial or family issues or health or whatever.

We all know that.

Then we have a shorter fuse, so if we can start from there, then we can see actually

someone is running at that heightened level all the time, so then we can maybe

just start to relate to their experience of being just a little bit more escalated.

All the time.

It might be because of the social expectations of the environment.

It might be because of the sensory sensitivities that they have.

Um, I mean, just so many things that they're running at a higher level.

Okay?

So if we can appreciate that, then we can understand why

they're a little bit quicker, do lose it than maybe other people.

Um, and what they need is more breaks.

We're all really good at being like, this is it.

I can't take it.

I'm outta here.

We, and we just like slam the computer shut and take off.

We all do that, but what if we took more breaks more often?

Then we can just kind of constantly be bringing ourselves down.

So that's where I would start that conversation with leadership.

If I were talking to that person who had just.

Lost it.

We would probably walk through like, what are the things that led up to that?

Because sometimes people miss it and they see that last trigger

and they were like, that was the thing, threw me over the edge.

It's never

the big thing.

It's al you know, you always, you always trip over the pebble of the path.

You don't trip over the mountain.

It's always the little things.

Um, and it's exactly, it's always, it's always the little things and it's like,

it's, it's, it's a chain of little things.

Like you'll be going to work and you get stuck behind some purpose of going five

miles an hour under the speed limit, and that slows you down enough to get stuck at

every single red light on the way there.

So then you stop to get coffee and you're standing in line at seven 11

behind a woman who's getting, you know, lottery tickets and buying

numbers for every number there is, you know, kids' birthdays, grand

babies', birthdays, great baby.

Great Grand Barry's birthdays for like 15, 20 minutes just buying lottery tickets.

So you have all these little frustrations.

Um, and then it just, you know, then it just boils over.

You trip over the pebble.

Yeah.

And so I, you know, last night I was at the grocery store and

there's an older woman working the register who's clearly new there

and doesn't understand the systems.

As I age, I'm learning that I learn slower and I'm frustrated 'cause I'm like,

come on, this is supposed to go faster.

And then I. So what we do is we recognize, wait a minute, why like I am

escalating and we don't notice those.

We are so busy moving so fast that we don't notice the

escalations until it's too late.

And so I actually have a system that I teach this sort of color regulation system

that is like kind of based on the stop lights, green, yellow, orange, red, and

we can kind of see ourselves escalating and when we can notice that that.

Us out of the reactionary part of our brain and more into the decision

making part of our brain, and we can get a little more rational and

then that helps us to calm down.

So that's kind of where we start.

Like we start looking at the pebbles along the way.

We start noticing the escalation.

We start building this color chart of, of, so that you can understand what triggers

you and what brings you back down.

And we kind of do that whole process together, uh, over time.

So that you can be a little more in tune with yourself.

Right.

Well, and that's important and that's where, uh, the, the workplace

accommodations come into, you know, come into play, which is a major,

you know, it's providing, like we touched on earlier, that structure, um,

the, um, scaffolding for an employee to be successful in the workplace,

especially with Neurodivergence.

There's gonna have to be some, um, you know, some give and take.

You know, they're able to produce, uh, at, at a high volume.

Uh, in many cases a little bit, you know, they can outproduce

neurotypical peers, uh, provided the accommodations are in place.

And, um, you know, you mentioned that with, you know, more frequent breaks.

Another one is, uh, you know, ambient lighting.

Yeah.

Uh, most everyone I know on the spectrum, we hate that overhead light.

You know, it's over.

I'm not a fan of overhead lighting, anything.

Uh, nice.

Uh, you know, lamp somewhere more ambulating is a huge one.

Um, another common one is a comfortable clothing.

You know, maybe they're not comfortable in the, um, you know, business

casual of, uh, you know, polo shirt tucked into khakis or whatever.

Maybe they need to wear a hoodie.

Maybe they need, uh, you know, sweatpants or something that's a little more,

you know, not quite as restrictive.

And these are minor things that a lot of them are strictly aesthetics too.

That's another thing that's like really, I mean, outside of like the breaks maybe,

which might break up the workflow, it's really not that big of a concession to

have, uh, ambient lighting or to let someone wear more comfortable clothing.

Yes.

Um, I, I talked to a guy one time that was like the chair that I sit in can make

or break my ability to pay attention and all he, he'll bring his own chair, right?

Like, he, he needs to have that chair.

So now, if we're talking about open work environments with people

who have, you know, don't know where they're gonna work that day,

like that's completely disruptive.

Um, but the chair can matter.

The, the sounds can be incredibly distracting.

The smells can be incredibly distracting.

Um.

Yeah, they're just, and, and then it, like, we just think about, um, how

work gets done and what it looks like.

And often someone who's neurodivergent isn't, um.

It doesn't have consistent energy throughout the day or

even day to day or week to week.

And so it's like they can be incredibly hyper-focused and

efficient for this period of time.

And then it looks different a little while later.

And so we look at them and their, their ability and the, the work that they

produce as a whole, as opposed to like every day, is the mouse moving enough

times or are they, you know, whatever.

And so we, we, yeah, there are.

A lot of things that are very easy to do, but we get so rigid and what it's supposed

to look like and how we're supposed to behave and all this that we are losing.

Um, you know, really great people.

Right.

It is.

Well, I, I'd say that it is a, um, it, it, it is an issue.

Uh, I don't know any of my peers who are, uh, you know, late diagnosed pe

uh, neurodivergent individuals who don't have a, uh, haven't had some type of,

um, career tumultuous along the way.

You know, most of us have jumped.

Yeah.

Uh, and it's a problem.

I know unemployment is, is, is a severe problem with the neurodivergent community.

Um.

Anyway, I wanted to, moving along, I wanted to jump into

the concept of masking fatigue.

I know that this is something that you, you know, you work with.

And, um, for listeners who might not know the term, can you explain like

what this is and how you feel it would affect, um, how, how it feels shows up at,

shows us up at work affects performance?

Yeah, so I think if we can go back to the example of like

your, you know what it's like.

So someone who's neurotypical, you know what it's like.

To be dealing with a challenging situation in your life and

holding it together at work.

And it's very, very hard.

So we can start from there.

'cause that's what you're doing.

You're like putting on a good show.

Like, Nope, I got this, even though whatever's going on in my life.

Um, and so now imagine that someone is holding it together because of overwhelm.

All the time, their whole lives because of sensory issues.

Um, also the baggage that you carry from having these challenges your whole life.

So the rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria, like what is that?

And we'll, you know, we can explain what that is to the

leadership, that kind of thing.

Um, okay, so that's a little bit about masking and I'm sorry, I forgot

the second part of your question.

Oh, I was just asking about how the masking fatigue would,

uh, you know, show up and work.

Oh, and I think we, I think we kind of touched on it with, um, the first,

I, I would say, I would call it like the first cracks in the dam.

You know, they're producing at a high level and then we get onto that cusp where

they were doing well until they weren't.

So they start mi missing deadlines.

They start coming to work a little bit late.

Um, they're not as present.

They're, uh, and there's a noticeable change in whatever metrics they're being

measured against for job performance.

Yeah.

All of those things.

And then if you're their supervisor, you might, you know, be asking

them to pick it up a little bit or.

You know, well, like, let just, you know, schedule time, block

your day differently or whatever.

And so you'll kind of give them these vague things and that isn't, they aren't

gonna have access to that until they're in a comfortable space to admit that

they are burned out or burning out.

And then we go all the way back to times of break and rest and slowing down.

I had a, I had a client who was kind of like, this is the

process that we went through.

Like, we're gonna slow down here.

We're gonna get some.

Baseline systems back in a place.

He's like, I don't have time for that.

I am so far behind and I'm stressed and I'm freaking out and everything.

Here's the other thing.

I was like, let's prioritize and he is like, I can't prioritize.

Everything feels urgent and important, so if you get that the Eisenhower Matrix

and you're like, let's plot things, what is like urgent and important?

He is like, everything is urgent and important.

That's when we know we gotta go all the way back and slow down because

he is so overwhelmed, he can't even slow down and like, make decisions

about where priorities fall.

That's actually really brilliant 'cause um, as you were saying that,

it made me think of what, uh, what you were talking about as far as that color

code for slowing down in the moment.

Maybe you could apply that same rubric to prioriti uh,

prioritization of workplace tasks.

You know, like, uh, all like professional triage, so to speak.

Like what is absolutely mission critical?

What can you do, you know, at the end of the day, at the end

of the week, end of the month.

Um, so maybe that's a, uh, that's a, that, that would, I, I would say

that would definitely work because as a, you know, especially when

I get caught up in my A DHD side, everything has to be done right now.

Yeah.

There's no sense of that prioritization.

It's just like you see things that need to get done, you wanna do all of it at once.

And that leads to extreme burnout.

Yes.

Yeah.

And then.

And then it becomes this giant list, and then you're like, I don't even

know what to do with this list.

Um, so the first thing I wanna say before we come back to the giant list

is I've had people use that color chart.

They, they end up using it.

For all aspects of their lives.

So that's, once you get started with it, it's amazing what I have

seen clients do with using it.

So I really recommend, uh, uh, messing around with it

and seeing where it takes you.

And then if you come back to the giant list, then, then we can kind of

start to break it apart and be like, now that you're a little bit calmer,

you can see which are the red ones.

These, these ones have to be taken care of, which ones are way down on the list.

And then eventually we just go, you know what?

I think they're probably.

Just gonna go away on their own, and so we can tear them off and throw 'em away.

And, but really it's gotta be starting with the, the, you know, getting, getting

yourself back to some semblance of.

Palmer in order to be able to see it all.

It's executive function.

That's what this comes down to.

You know, planning, prioritizing, initiating, follow through is huge.

Um, before, you know, when my A DHD side is not medicated, I'm a, you

know, we're three inning ball player.

You know, I'm really, really great at planning and starting

tasks and the follow through.

Once we cross that threshold from it being fun and novel to being a

chore, then it really falls down.

Um, you know, then it's just not, there's just not that follow through.

Um, so I, in the vein of executive function, what's different about how

you would approach this with one of your neurodivergent clients versus just

generic, uh, you know, these generic platitudes of generic productivity advice?

Yeah.

It, so the generic productivity advice, I kind of encourage my

clients to just throw out the list.

Right?

Right.

You know, things like, do the hardest thing first.

For someone who has problems with task initiation, which the amount of energy

that it takes to get started on something, which someone who has a DH, ADHD or

autism like that can be really hard.

So then looking at a daunting hard task, like, no, that's not gonna work.

Gotta start with something that you can get some momentum, so something easier.

So throw, you know, eating the frog or doing the hardest thing.

Throw that out the window and then there's like the two minute rule.

If it's only gonna take two minutes, like just go ahead and stop and do that.

Absolutely Not for someone who has two A DHD, because two minute ideas

are constantly popping into your head.

So absolutely not.

Those need to go on a list and you schedule time to check all your two

minute things off and you stay focused.

So like all the productivity advice, I just, I kind of just throw it out the

window and we just start with like, let's just start with time blocking.

Time blocking is the thing that is good.

So what does that mean?

Well, that means that you need extended periods of time and then you just kind

of leave them open and then we, you know, look at your to-do list and we

go, what is the highest priority here?

And we get them in those time blocks.

Then sometimes we have to talk about like, how do we even just get started on a task?

And so we'll move into that.

How can you stay focused when you're getting pulled away?

How do we monitor your energy level?

Because, just 'cause you said there was a hard thing that

was gonna happen at this time.

Your energy level isn't up for it.

Okay, let's just move, let's have flexible time blocks.

So we move things around based on your energy.

Um, and so I just give them permission to let go of all the productivity advice

that you've heard and like let's just build something that works for you and for

leadership if you wanna do this with them, just because it's worked for two weeks.

Doesn't mean it's gonna stick.

I often work with my clients for nine months because Yep.

It's just like you said, it's all shiny and great and it's working,

and then there's a wrench and it's like, okay, it starts to fall apart.

We need to get back together again and reevaluate and kick back up

again and then kind of plow through until it becomes part of the norm.

And this takes time, and this is where I think.

Leadership maybe misses it.

They're like, oh, you did it.

You've been doing it for two weeks, you're great.

And then three months down the road it's all falling apart again.

Right.

It's that I, I think of that in my work and I always think back to the, uh,

Mike Tyson quote, that everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face.

Yeah.

Because a lot of times it's, you know, plans sometimes doesn't

survive first contact with, uh, I mean, unknown variables.

So I feel like it, with these plans, especially with, on putting

different strategies and things together, there has to be a certain

amount of resilience built into it.

That's absolutely right.

And so that's where the check-in's like, oh, okay.

I mean, I tell my clients like, it's gonna be great for a few weeks, and

we're gonna be like, yes, we got this, and then it's gonna fall apart.

And then that's where it gets hard and that's where we

have to kind of see through.

So without any kind of judgment, that's just what's gonna happen.

New systems don't.

Stick, like you said, the first sign of a challenge, it's gonna fall apart

and we gotta like restart without judgment and get back on track.

And see it all the way through.

Right.

Is this a, uh, when, when you're dealing with leadership and whatnot, are they

mostly open to this or do you ever deal with any friction on their end?

Like they might see a employee who needs all these accommodations, especially

if it's like a sudden diagnosis, like suddenly they have to make

all these different accommodations.

Do they ever, are they willing to work with you or do they

ever see it as like a red flag?

They're putting that employee on a, um, pip uh, and just trying to, uh, you know,

maybe shuffle them outta the organization.

'cause they just, they just don't wanna deal with the headache.

I see a little bit of both.

So it just depends on the kind of person.

Like some people are really good at seeing the pe, the person and

honoring them and what they need.

And some people are like, um, if they can't follow the system,

then it's not gonna work.

And so they're a little more hardheaded and unwilling to be flexible.

Um, they're the ones who just see, well, this is the way that it works,

and so if you can't do it this way, then it's not going to work.

Um, and so, yeah, it just, you know, depends on the person.

I think it's 'cause it would be different for every, you know,

neurodivergent person, you know, 'cause we wanna tie together that, um, that

sense of overwhelm, um, you know, where it requires that emotional regulation

and that overwhelm comes with a masking fatigue when things are too much.

But as someone who's had lived experience with this, uh, I'm not even aware of it.

It's like, um, you know, I, I, it's.

Kind of maca, but I'll use the frog metaphor.

Okay, let's say you want to, um, boil a frog to death.

Okay?

So you boil some water on the stove.

You take a frog and you throw 'em in.

He's gonna leap out right away.

But if you take tepid water and you fill up the, the pan with tepid

water, put it on the stove and set the frog in, it's just gonna sit

there 'cause it's just chilling.

So then you turn up the heat gradually, you know, one degree, a minute,

one degree, every few minutes.

And after some time, the frog's gonna die.

It's gonna be so comfortable and so unaware of what's actually happening that

pretty soon it's in boiling water and is.

Dead.

That's the best way I can explain what masking fatigue is.

'cause it's going great until suddenly it isn't.

And there isn't, you know, leadership or um, you know, peers

or anything, they'll say, oh, well we didn't know anything was wrong.

Why didn't you say anything?

It's because we're maintaining that mask for so long.

And that's like our default setting is we need to keep up that appearance

that we're holding it all together.

Um, I like to use the metaphor of a duck, for instance.

You know, look, look at a duck.

He's floating on top of the water.

He looks so calm and serene, and he has it together.

Meanwhile, under the surface, he's just pedaling for his dear life,

and that's what masking is like.

It gets tiring.

Um, so when we suddenly hit that, um, overwhelm, it's um, it, it's like

the more you struggle, the deeper you sink, it's like being in quicksand.

You know, the more you fight against it, the faster you're drowning.

Yep.

And when that's when that's coming up, I can understand where like leadership

would have a difficult time seeing it.

'cause all they're looking at is the duck.

You know, they look at their employees and it's a bunch of calm

ducks floating on the water and they don't think anything's wrong.

Yeah.

Meanwhile then one ducks dunks below the surface, you're like, oh, I had no idea.

Yeah.

So what does that conversation look like?

And this kind of opens our door to the next one where we, um, uh, you know,

you're working with organizations and they sponsor coaching for employees.

Okay.

But when an organization is ready for that conversation, is that like after one

of these, uh, breakdown moments happens?

Um.

Okay.

Again, like most of the work that I do is with the individual, so

I'll just give you from just the experience that I've had with, you

know, supporting the, the leadership.

Um, and yeah, coaching within that is that it's like these are places

and people who they feel comfortable having conversations, so I feel

comfortable going to management or HR and saying, I have a DHD and.

I think this is why I'm just like grounding now.

And so, yep.

It often comes to that head where everything just kind of is falling

apart through dealing with an incredibly stressed out employee who

has always looked like they've been a nice little duck, and then all

of a sudden it's come to a head and it's like, then the, the people who

are in support of this person, they realize they don't have the strategies

to be able to poach them because.

You know, the typical like, well, let's just look at your planner, or

whatever it is, isn't going to help.

And then also, these are people who understand that yeah, they've got the

employee assistance program that's gonna give 'em five coaching sessions

with some, you know, I don't know, some subscription that they have, but also

recognizing that's probably not enough.

And so they care about this person, they want them to do well.

They see that it's just.

Kind of not working right now.

And they realize that the benefit is to get them some coaching because

otherwise this is just gonna continue and they lose productivity from the

person and they have a stressed out person that they care about a lot and

it's eventually just gonna go to a PIP and they're gonna lose them or whatever.

And so.

That's where we get into the benefit of just bringing someone in as soon as you

can to support them and working through this challenging time, whatever it's

Right.

And I think that's important, especially if they're, uh, informed

leadership about Neurodivergence.

Um, because I feel like if they don't know what's going on and they're already

like doing a PIP or trying to, you know, on the surface trying to, you know, say.

Employee retention, do a pip or whatever.

Um, if that employee is already in masking fatigue, it's like re rearranging

deck chairs in the Titanic, you know?

It's, it's already, yeah.

You know, it's already done.

Um, yep.

So I think it's important to have that, uh, you know, that sense of perspective

from not only the employee, but also the leadership to understand that, hey, maybe

there's a little bit more going on here.

It's worth a, um, you know, we're worth a closer look.

Um, yeah.

One of the things you, you talk about is, um, you'd say that this

is, you know, cheaper than actually losing them or replacing them,

or watching managers burnout.

Uh, and what I wanted to ask you about is the, uh, return on

investment argument, the ROI.

So like what would it actually cost an organization who are not actively

supporting neurodivergent talent?

Yeah, well for one, you have a struggling employee, so they're so for

purely financial or productivity, you're not getting the best from this person.

And then as that continues for months, you are not getting the

best of that person for months.

And now you bring in team members 'cause they're picking up the

slack or you know, whatever.

So now you've got a frustrated team.

That then goes to the management.

So now you've got a manage manager who already has too much on their plate,

who has a frustrated team, who has an employee who's struggling, and it

falls on them and they're like, I don't know what to do to fix this problem.

So then it moves up to hr. HR tries now triage the whole thing.

It's not working.

So now you've just got all these people, this time, this money that's being

invested because of this one person who's struggling, ultimately leads to a PIP

and however long that you know, runs out until eventually it ends in, you know,

them asking them to leave or whatever.

This whole thing requires so much time, energy, emotional resources,

financial resources, where if you had.

Intervened earlier when you saw that this person was struggling and had

gotten them some personalized coaching and some support for management

to support them or you know, team.

So we can do that as well.

If we can get all that together, you can just save yourself so much time.

Emotional energy, stress, and money.

Right?

Uh, because then you gotta hire someone and that is its whole cycle

of right, like time and energy and financial resources trading.

Bringing them up to speed training, like it's, it requires

an investment on their part.

No, I, so

I don't know how much that is, but I'm pretty sure it's

right.

I, I feel like it would be organizational dependent.

Uh, but it is, it, it definitely is more of, uh, it works more to their benefit

to actually work with a neurodivergent talent rather than going through the,

all the, all the motions of getting out.

Yeah.

And if we can just look backwards for a minute, there's

a reason that you hired them.

They've been doing really great work for you up until this specific point.

So's.

Let's just take action on this and be like, wait, I want that person back.

They want that person back too.

Like the employee wants to be that person.

So what can we do to support them in getting back?

And that might be some specialized coaching.

Absolutely.

Well, let me ask you this.

It's one of the, um, I I, I see it's pretty popular in, uh,

the neurodivergent community.

A lot of people, um, self-identify as neurodivergent, and you see a lot

of this self-diagnosis out there.

Um, is that.

Acceptable to company leadership or to, would they rather see the, uh, you

know, a formal diagnosis if you can provide documentation than, especially

with autism, um, they're protected under the a DA, so that company is legally

required to give them accommodation versus someone who comes in and says,

well, I think I have a DHD 'cause I took a, you know, I took an online test.

Uh, would you do this for me?

Yeah, I think you're gonna probably.

Have more success with the official diagnosis.

Right.

As opposed to the self-diagnosis.

Um, but then that's a double-edged sword.

I spoke with a nurse at a public facility, you know, a year or so ago, and she

was talking about how, you know, people think coming into gut get a diagnosis

is like, this is then I'm gonna be able to present this to my employers and I'm

gonna be able to get accommodations.

And they've actually been coached to, to really.

Ask them to pause and consider that.

There are also some negative sides to that because even though discrimination is

illegal, it still happens, and so right.

It'll manifest in, in like microaggressions.

Uh, for example, let's say you have a, uh, you know, an autistic employee

who is, um, you know, they deal with bad, they can't deal with ambient

noise, so they have, um, noise canceling headphones on all the time.

The company handbook specifically says, no personal headphones at all.

You can't listen to music at work.

So you have a neurotypical employee who's gonna say, oh, well, why does little

Jimmy get his noise canceling headphones?

And we don't it.

Granted, that is a, you know, legally protected a DA mandated accommodation.

At the same time, there's gonna be that sense of envy.

Yeah.

There's gonna be that sense of resentment and that's going to

manifest in different microaggressions.

And, you know, neurodivergent people would deal with enough discrimination,

uh, without having to pile on.

So, um, aside from having, you know, leadership, uh, understanding about

neurodivergent employees, would you like to see more, uh, neurodivergent

awareness, maybe given towards a whole, you, you know, to the whole,

the whole staff or the whole, you know, all the, all the workforce.

A hundred percent.

And actually about a year ago, um, that was really my primary focus was education

to leadership about Neurodivergence.

Um, and so that's, that was what I was trying to do because I realized

that if we go back to my teaching, I realized that my students were in

their thirties at this point, and I was like, oh, wait, they still have a

DHD, they still have autism and Right.

The workplace doesn't understand their brains.

So, um, that was really what I set out.

Part of what I set out to do when I started this program, unfortunately

in our current climate, DEI programs are kind of like fading or moved

to the back burner or quiet.

And so that really never gained momentum, but I still, you know,

have done a little bit of that.

Um, now it's kind of more towards like, okay, working with.

When I do corporate sponsored coaching, so when the, the organization pays

me to coach one of their employees.

Then I also have meetings with HR and their manager as well.

Not necessarily to, you know, give specific details of our coaching sessions,

but to support them and understanding what is A-A-D-H-D, what is autism?

So now it just looks a little bit different, but absolutely, I think that

education is needed, right for everyone.

Uh, okay.

So if, if we have any, you know, management, leadership, anyone who's

listening to this podcast and they have someone on their team who fits this

pattern of Neurodivergence, um, you know, capable, but they're struggling,

what would you say the first step is?

I think the first step I would say to them is, and I mean, it

sounds a little like, I don't know, you know, get to know the person.

Um.

Which I mean, just makes sense.

And so let's see if I can be a little more descriptive, because again, every person

is so unique, but don't jump in with strategies because they've tried them all.

Um, everybody who struggles with executive functions and productivity,

they've tried all the strategies out there and it hasn't worked.

When I'm working with clients, I just kind of start that with like,

okay, here's what we're gonna do.

We're gonna start, we're gonna try strategy.

I'm gonna throw something out there and you're gonna tell me why it's

not gonna work for you, and we're gonna brainstorm and we're gonna

keep going until you go, yeah, okay.

Think that makes sense.

I can try that.

All right, and then you're gonna come back to me the next week and you're

gonna be like, here's why it didn't work, because I don't expect it to work.

And then we're gonna like, iterate on that and we'll be like, okay, so let's, and

we're just gonna brainstorm, brainstorm until we get something that works.

I see you kind of, I'm loving that.

Well, I'm, I'm loving that.

'cause that's one of, uh, that's one of the things I deal with, with my, uh,

with my consulting firm is Neurodivergent Processing and Applied Neurodivergence is,

we are very, very good at peeking around the corner and knowing whether something's

gonna work or something's not gonna work.

So I love that approach.

'cause you come to the client and you're like, well, this is what we're gonna do.

Why is this problematic?

And they're gonna give you a, they're gonna tell you exactly why it won't

work and be detailed about it.

So then you're like, okay, well let's try this angle, let's try that angle.

And I love that you're working.

With the people to find an independent solution.

'cause that again, talks to the, uh, you know, our concept of the

neurodivergent processing, where we do the, you know, bottoms up processing.

It's part of the neurodivergent, you know, cognition.

Um, whereas leadership wants to apply that one size fits all.

You know, the top down.

Okay, we're gonna give everyone a cov planner.

Use your planner and that's gonna do it.

It might work for everyone 'cause it's top down, but it's not

gonna work from the bottom up.

So you're coming to your client and allowing them to use their own processing

ability to, you know, curate their own, you know, you know, their own,

um, work environment, their own pro system of success, which I think, yeah.

And so I think it's fantastic.

Yeah.

So I guess maybe that was, so maybe that's where I would, now

that I've talked through it a little bit, that's how I would.

Help leadership start, it's just be like, I bet this probably isn't

gonna work 'cause you've tried a lot of things, but let's start here.

Right?

Why don't you tell me how, how this may or may not fit into what you're doing.

And, and then come back and tell me all the reasons that it didn't work and

we will just refine, refine, refine.

And, and I've got an example of that.

You know, I do a lot of work with calendars.

Everybody's got their, um.

Online calendar and I'm like, I think everybody needs to

go back to a wall calendar.

And you know, I get people working with whiteboard calendars and sticky

notes and they're moving things around.

Or I've got someone who's got three different calendars for three different

aspects of their life on whiteboards, on the wall, and it's like just so

many different ways to work on this one challenge based on the needs of the person

and their specific job requirements and just the way that their brain works.

Creative.

It's kind of fun.

Right.

Well, I, I agree.

It's just that it has to be, it has to be individually

tailored, curated, so to speak.

Um, yeah, because it can't, you know, there's not gonna be a one size fits all.

It's like, uh, you know, and that's one of the things we deal with in the

NeuroD community as far as there's no.

One size fits all approach.

If you've met one person with autism, you have met one person with autism,

you know, there's not gonna be any, you know, we're all different and

we all express it in different ways.

Uh, 'cause it is, it's a spectrum.

It's not any one, it's not a one size fits all approach.

Um, okay.

So, you know, to start wrapping this up, um, what is one thing that you would

want neurodivergent professionals to know, especially those who are, you know,

just late diagnosed, late identified, and who are just now figuring this out?

Um, number one, I would say.

Um, to check in on your own inner critic, this is the part where you

now need to look backwards and say, just as you had said previously,

oh, that was an autistic thing, so.

When you saw it pop up when you were in, you know, high school or middle school

or with your, you know, whoever you were at home with your parents or the other

adults or early in your career, like, look back on some of those things and

start to forgive the judgment that you put on yourself or whatever that was.

And so get to know this inner critic who's constantly telling

you that you screwed up.

Become more friendly with it and more forgiving of it.

So some of the work that I do is like mindfulness, so like let's

recognize what's going on in our head.

Let's become a little more friendly and form a relationship with this

person that's always been judging us because other people were so.

We got some mental health work to do here.

And then secondly then I, a lot of my clients just wanna dive in.

There's so much information out there now about A DHD and autism and there are

so many influencers and people with, you know, all this information out there.

Just, you know.

Pick one or two people that you really like and just kind of stick with them

and go slow because too much information then becomes one more overwhelming thing.

Like, are you gonna start with diet or are you gonna start with meds or

are you gonna start with therapy?

You gonna start with coaching.

Like, there's just so much.

Um, so just pick, you know, one or two people that really resonates with you.

Books or podcasters or influencers of some kind and just.

Start with 'em or get a coach and then just turn it completely over to 'em and be

like, help me, help walk me through this.

Um, and then, you know, if you don't know where to start, uh, just reach out to

me and, and I'll get you some resources.

I'm happy to offer that to anyone.

I can give you my favorite podcast and give you my favorite diet.

I can give you my favorite, um, newsletter, um, all those

things and just take it slow.

Absolutely.

I, I love that, that, um, you know, find something and

stick with it because that's so counterintuitive to the A DHD approach.

Um, 'cause they're gonna wanna do I know, 'cause I'll do it, you

know, if you spot it, you got it.

I'll try to do everything at once and suddenly I have like 200 tabs open on my

computer and no, you know, I don't have any, you know, I haven't learned anything.

So that's actually a really, really good piece of advice.

Um, I love that.

Uh, so what is one thing that you would want organizational leaders to know?

I would say for them, um, you know, the next app, the next productivity

tool, the next calendar, the next planner, the next program isn't the thing.

It's not, uh, people with a DHD will say, one more notebook's

gonna solve my problem.

Um, and, and it's, and it's not.

Um, and so just like kind of what system are they trying to use?

And, um, how can you just start to brainstorm with them, revisions to it to

make it stick and then check in later.

And if it looks like it's kind, they've lost their way.

We don't need to scrap the whole thing, come back, be like, wait a

minute, let's just come back to this.

It looks like you've lost your way.

This, we developed this.

It's kind of wor it was working before.

I call it hitting a reset button.

Like I imagine like one of those big red buttons that you can kind

of right.

Hammer down and be like, we're gonna reset like

that.

We've fallen it off, we're gonna reset.

I'm not judging you.

You need to not judge you.

We're just gonna come back to what works.

And then we need to do that over and over until it really sticks.

Right?

Those resets are so important.

It's always, uh, you know, there's a thing in recovery that it's

never too late to restart your day.

Yeah.

And it's really, you know, it could really just reset.

And it's a, and that's another thing.

It's, it comes down to, um, you know, moments.

You know, like personally, I don't believe there's any such

thing as having a bad day.

Okay.

You might have a series of bad moments, like we talked about

at the start of the podcast.

You know, it's the little things, you know, I have this little, little

series of bad moments that leads to a massive, massive meltdown.

But at the end of the day, um, you might say you had a bad

day, but it was only like maybe.

Two, two or three minutes of just really bad moments, and you're

focusing on that instead of the whole.

So it's really important to maintain a sense of perspective about things

and remember that you can reset.

It's never too late, never too late to reset your day.

Um, okay, so lastly, what, uh, where can people find you,

you know, uh, neuro autonomy.

What, um, where, where, what's the best way of getting a hold of you?

Um, I do most of my social media work on LinkedIn,

so you can find me there.

Jeannie Love.

I have a pretty unique name, so I don't think,

okay.

I, I'll put it in the show notes.

I'll, I'll, I'll drop the link in the show notes.

Fantastic.

And then my website, neuro autonomy.

Um, so just like having autonomy over the way that your brain works.

So neuro autonomy.com.

Um, and then, you know, if you wanna chat, I offer, you know, a discovery call

for anybody who wants to pick my brain.

And I'm not super salesy to sign up for coaching if it doesn't seem like

the right time or thing for you.

So, you know, feel free to just book a call.

Um, you can email me or send me a message on LinkedIn, whatever.

I'm happy to, to help you out.

Absolutely.

Okay.

Well, um, in closing, do you have any, are any parting shots, anything

else you want the audience to know?

I. Let's see if you are finding out that you have a DHD later

in life, whether it's an official diagnosis or um, a self-diagnosis.

Um, slow down journal.

Have people write, just like whatever thoughts are going on in your

head, especially if there's a lot going on in your head right now.

Just g. Get on paper that helps to quiet things down and give you

a little bit more perspective.

Um, and then just take some step backs to recognize that you have

been dealing with this, you your whole life and that you have some

rejection sensitivity because of it.

And we're gonna start to kind of let go of that critic, um, and for leadership know

that they're going through that process.

And, um, that, you know, whatever has worked to get you where you

are is probably not gonna be the thing that's gonna help them.

And so we gotta get creative brainstorm.

And, and just keep iterating until, until we find something that

works to support them because, um, you'd have a really great employee

if we meet them where they are.

I, this is what I like to say, they've been working their whole lives to meet

us where we want them to be, like where the teachers want 'em to be, their

family, the adults, you know, whatever.

But maybe we can meet them a little bit more where they are and get a little

more creative, um, in supporting them.

And then that would be a really great relationship.

Absolutely.

Alright, well Jeannie, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Um, I'm sorry we only had an hour.

I mean, we, this one probably could have strung out to two or three hours.

I wanna thank everyone for tuning into another episode of the Sight Side.

Uh, we'll be back on Thursday with another episode.

And thank you again.

Have a wonderful day.