Christiana Figueres is a renowned leader in global climate change, known for her role as Executive Secretary of the UNFCCC from 2010-2016. She successfully led international climate negotiations in Cancun, Durban, Doha, Warsaw, and Lima, culminating in the historic Paris Agreement of 2015. She's credited with pioneering collaborative diplomacy. Today, she co-founded Global Optimism, co-hosts the podcast ‘Outrage & Optimism’, and co-authored ‘The Future We Choose: Surviving the Climate Crisis’.
Luisa Neubauer is a youth climate activist and lead organizer of the German “Fridays for Future“ movement. Luisa was named one of the TIME100 Next of 2022. In 2021, Luisa and others won the landmark constitutional court ruling “Neubauer vs. Germany“ against the German government in a struggle for political climate action. Through her activism she’s met with president Macron, Angela Merkel and Barack Obama and has published three best-selling books on the climate crisis.
In the final episode of season 3, Confessions of a Climate Activist, Clover sits down with Christiana Figueres and Luisa Neubauer to explore how to bring about system change to the structures that created and continue to worsen the climate crisis. Firstly, Clover and Christiana explore the importance of finding common ground and creating spaces that foster genuine dialogue and understanding. Then, Clover speaks with Luisa to dive into her experience as a climate justice activist. Stick around to hear Christiana and Luisa spill their climate confessions.
“We don't share our views on the science… But do we share humanity? Are we both a member of the human family? and at least to that question we can always answer a resounding yes” - Christiana Figueres
“It’s not about providing the facts to a head of state, but about providing the facts and the culture and the hope to people everywhere to then be empowered to change, to rise, to build power that challenges the status quo.” - Luisa Neubauer
We want to thank Greenhouse Communications for their incredible support of season 3 of the Force of Nature podcast. As well as our production partners over at OneFinePlay.
Transcripts
Clover Hogan:
Hi my name’s Clover and you’re listening to the Force of Nature podcast. This season, we’re diving into “Confessions of a Climate Activist”. What comes to mind when you picture an activist? Is it a person glued to the road? Someone with a reusable coffee cup? Maybe, a teenager holding a microphone? Whatever it is, I want you to let it go — because I’m about to invite you behind the scenes. You’re going to hear from activists on the stuff that doesn’t get talked about. Burnout; getting cancelled; the ethical compromises of making money; imposter syndrome, and even what it’s like to alienate friends and family. See this as your how-to guide when understanding and navigating the nuances of activism and barriers to action in the climate space. Over the season, we hope to find some answers: namely, what activism can look like when it's more open, honest and human. Make sure to stick around to the end of each episode when our guests spill their climate confessions. After all, we don't need a hundred perfect activists - but millions of imperfect ones.
Clover Hogan:
Last week on Confessions of a Climate Activist*,* we explored the rise of burnout culture within activism — and what a more sustainable way of working can look like. Throughout this season, we’ve explored everything from contending with call-out culture, to navigating difficult family dynamics. In our very last episode, it feels important to explore what it means to be effective as climate activists. The science shows that we’re failing to solve this crisis. COP26 in Glasgow determined that we needed to reduce global emissions by 50% within the decade to avoid the 1.5 degree tipping-point. Current commitments — commitments, not actions — place us on track for a decrease of one percent. When I go to the polls, I’m asked to choose between a climate denier and a seasoned procrastinator. A study last year from Deloitte found that among business leaders, the #1 perceived benefit of taking action on sustainability was not solving the climate crisis — but public perception. Through countless types of greenwash, companies are more concerned with being *seen* to do the right thing than actually doing it. And it’s working: when we polled our community, 71% admitted to feeling confused when telling the difference between greenwashing and real climate solutions. The media fails to report that oil and gas companies are making record-breaking profits while people are unable to heat their homes. Instead, they depict environmental activists as “terrorists”, and dismiss eco-anxious young people as “the snowflake generation”. Everywhere you look, it feels like people with power — across politics, business and media — are delaying action. I’m curious to hear if other young people share the same sentiment… let’s hear from our Force of Nature community.
Community member 1:
Especially within my journey, I've seen that, you know, there are people who will stop you or will go to any efforts to stop you if they are a climate denier, if they are, you know, spreading misinformation, false information about climate change or the crisis in general. You know, this is all a propaganda and this is, you know, a scheme by the government and this climate change is not really real. And we've all heard all of these lies and misinformation from people.
Hey, I'm Judy and I live in Dunedin in New Zealand. Living among students means that I'm often trying to find a cheaper... deal especially when I'm at the super Over the last couple years I've also tried to start including environmental factors in my decision making. However, I am finding that this is getting harder and harder and the reason for this is greenwashing. Brands and products are giving themselves labels like biodegradable or compostable to appeal more to consumers like myself when really there's no clear standard as to how sustainable a product needs to be in order to get those labels. It makes me sad to think that all of us out there who are trying to partake in friendly think that we're doing just because of greenwashing and essentially corporate greed.
Community member 2:
Gen Z and millennials in general, we have a lot to stress about. We see our home being stolen from us and we are not the ones in power that we can do anything about it. I sense that frustration. So if our political leaders are not doing anything about it and are not taking policy decisions or are not changing the law, this is the kind of protest or this is the kind of revolt that we would get to.
Community member 3:
My name is Beth. I am a young person. I'm 19 years old. Young people are the only ones that have been young people in today's day, and their voices really do matter. Why aren't we having an equal voice in decision making that involves young people? I believe that there should be a government that relies on lived experience, so young people should be there making decisions about young people's lives.
Clover Hogan:
It’s easy to see why so many young people feel disillusioned when it comes to people in positions of power. Not only are they failing, but as the generation who will inherit the worst impacts of the climate crisis, we’re being locked out of decisions governing our future. I think we all can agree that the only way to bring about real change is to change the systems and structures that created and continue to worsen the climate crisis. But where do we even begin? How do we engage with the people upholding these systems? To help us answer this question, I’ve invited Christiana Figueres to have a conversation. Christiana has been a driving force in global climate action and negotiations for decades, having served as the former Secretary General of the UNFCCC (which I’ll ask her to explain in a moment). She was the architect of the Paris agreement, and she’s also the co-host of the popular podcast Outrage and Optimism.
Christiana Figueres:
I'm Christiana Figueres. I'm dialing in from the wild and wonderful country of Costa Rica. Beautiful.
Clover Hogan:
So Christiana, between:
Christiana Figueres:
agreed to way back in Rio in:
Clover Hogan:
I think drawing on that kind of experience of your role and I'm not going to try and repeat your title at that time, but an entire career of engaging with people in these kinds of institutions, which can feel really overwhelming and kind of abstract, but engaging with people in positions of power with world leaders, with the heads of oil and gas companies. I'd love to hear a little bit more about your kind of personal experience. engaging in those spaces and trying to create change within those spaces.
Christiana Figueres:
but there were quite a few in:
Clover Hogan:
I know for me personally, when I encounter not even kind of like outright climate denial, but the more thinly veiled climate denial, which is, you know, well, technology is gonna like solve the problem, or... know, we can trust in our elected officials to act with the urgency, whatever. I often find myself overcome with frustration and anger and this like very... I think I used to think that it was like sadness because I often found myself physically crying and then I realised it was this kind of some of those feelings in the spaces that you're engaging with? Like how, you know, when you were encountering those levels of denial, have you been able to actually create that kind of space for that humanity and what sounds like kind of compassion to acknowledge that at a fundamental level, this is another human being I'm trying to engage with, work with?
Christiana Figueres:
Yeah, and I don't want to say like, I always do it because that would be an outright lie. And it's difficult to do, but I find that the more I practice it, the more I can do it. And so let's just take one example of those that you mentioned, Clover. You mentioned basically exporting responsibility to someone else, right? And saying, I have nothing to do with this. This is not for me to engage in, whether they think that it's government or corporates or whoever. And so in those cases, I always try to find a question that puts the other person in a different framework that begins to focus them on how would their life be better if we're able to address climate in a timely fashion. So how would they be more healthy? How would they be more efficient? How would they be better members of their community? And instead of preaching the need to address climate, to go to sort of put myself in their shoes, I guess is what I do. And I'm always interested in seeing how do they envision a future in which we have addressed climate change. Not solved, right? Not solved because we're not gonna solve it. We're not gonna take it off the table. We know that, we're too late for that. But addressing the worst. And how would they feel about that? How does it affect their own personal life? So to bring it from the government level to me, the individual, how would my life be different? And then when you get them to understand that Oh yeah, my life would be different. My life would be better. Now you can ask the question, so would you like to do something to bring that and make that a reality? And that puts them in a very different framework, right? We all operate out of self-interest, sadly. And so I guess my purpose there is to make that self-interest and enlighten self-interest and align their self-interest with the interests of the planet.
Clover Hogan:
Thank you for sharing. This kind of elicits for me a very specific example of a conversation I saw. You navigate, from my perspective, with a lot of grace and compassion. And that was when we were at Countdown in Edinburgh, and you were on stage kind of moderating this conversation between Lauren MacDonald, the Scottish climate justice activist, and the then CEO of Shell. If you wouldn't mind, I'd love to hear your reflection on that experience because I think it alludes to a lot of what you were just sharing.
Christiana Figueres:
Yes, it's actually become pretty famous, that conversation. Not that anyone intended it to. Well, actually, there were three people on stage. But the more difficult dynamic was the one between Lauren and Ben van Verden. I must say that as Lauren spoke, I just felt such pain inside of me because she was speaking, crying out of a well of pain that was very, very deep in her. And as I listened to her, that pain that she felt was immediately woken in me. And I just thought that Lauren did such an incredible job of communicating that pain. It's not easy to communicate pain in words and especially not on stage, in front of cameras. And then when she left the stage, I was in deep pain. But I also immediately went to the thought, how is this audience reacting to her pain? And what I wanted to avoid was anyone in the audience judging her negatively. what I wanted to invite. And that's why I called for, let's pause, let's breathe, and let's all acknowledge the pain that we have. Because I wanted everyone to touch their own pain. Don't be afraid of touching your own pain. What Lauren has done here is called us to our own pain. So let's do that. Let's touch our own pain. And by time, touching our own pain, we avoid judging Lauren negatively, which could have been an immediate reaction. And I think most people told me later that they did realise that they also carry a hell of a lot of pain. And that was a very helpful and educational moment for them.
Clover Hogan:
I remember personally feeling this real sense of relief. Um, not only when Lauren spoke, because it kind of gave voice to what I think a lot of people in that room were already feeling, uh, and didn't necessarily have the words for as you said. Um, but this sense of like really being seen when you held space for that rather than just trying to like skirt around it or, you know, brush it under the rug. Because I feel like... So often, particularly young people like Lauren, other young activists giving voice to those feelings, were often dismissed or branded as the snowflake generation. That sensitivity, that pain is almost weaponized against us and we're told, well, it's you being naive, it's you not understanding how the world works, whatever. So actually creating space for that was so incredibly validating. What I've observed engaging in certain policymaking spaces or business spaces is that they're often very cold and clinical. And I had this moment at COP26 where I was in one of the main spaces and it's all white boards and white rooms and everyone in business suits. And you're talking about the loss of biodiversity and indigenous cultures and there's not a plant to be seen. It's like the kind of containers in which we're expected to connect to ourselves as humans and be able to have really honest human conversations don't actually facilitate that. So I guess my question around like having licenses, I suppose, yeah, how do you swim against the status quo, particularly when so much in our culture, particularly in those kinds of decision-making spaces? kind of conditions us to switch off or to kind of hide behind jargon or to kind of hide behind bureaucracy so that we don't have to drop into those feelings and connect on a more like heart to heart level.
Christiana Figueres:
Yeah, so, so true. And I'm in my head sort of going back to all of those spaces and those moments. And Clover, I just think... That's exactly the moment in the situation in which we have to pause, take a breath. and bring up the fullness of us. And, you know, my experience in those moments is if I don't just go with the flow, and you know, the clinical, I love the word that you use, clinical, the clinical antiseptic environment and conversation, because we all take a lot of information through our eyes, and if we walk into a room like that. The message that goes to our brain is this is going to be a clean antiseptic, you know, whatever clinical conversation. And so to notice that is what is set up. A. B. That's not the kind of conversation that we want. C. How do I bring my full self to this conversation? To invite. a stepping into ourselves, not just into myself, but everyone stepping into their selves. That requires courage for sure. And it requires having that moment of realization of, whoa, this is not the kind of conversation that I want. I am going to contribute to changing this. So you do have to pause. You do have to take a couple of breaths. and then touch into yourself and come out with a question, statement, an action that switches the dynamic in the room toward something that is much more conducive to a human conversation rather than a robotic conversation.
Clover Hogan:
I'd love to hear, from all of your experiences, and I'm sure you've seen this in different degrees of different people, but is there an example of a time where you've witnessed that moment of insight or that penny drop moment where someone has allowed themselves to really question the situation or challenge themselves and disrupt their own thinking to realise that oh wow, this is much more urgent than I allowed myself to acknowledge and I have a real role and responsibility here.
Christiana Figueres:
The most vivid and deep example that I saw of that actually happened to me in the lead-up to Paris in Saudi Arabia in a conversation with the Minister of Energy in Saudi Arabia and obviously in every meeting in Saudi Arabia, I was the only woman, of course. in so many of the conversations that I had with them, I guess my line of questioning was always, what is the future of this whole Gulf region with a runaway climate? What does that do to this region, which is already one of the hottest in the world? And I saw the penny drop. with the Minister of Energy when for one second he realized, oh, maybe we get to the point where our air conditioners are not gonna be enough to keep this country livable. And that's where he opened up to what eventually was the entry point of Saudi Arabia to the Paris Agreement. So that, you know, that aha moment for him to realize that they have to diversify their economy. That was his aha. He went, oh, I have to diversify the economy of this region of my country. I've had many examples of that, but that stands out in my mind as being one of the more transformational examples of what you've said. relates back to what you were sharing earlier in terms of not arguing your case from the perspective like, these are the reasons why I think this issue is important, thus, this is why you should care about it too. But what is that personal connection to the problem that creates that point of entry for someone to even have the conversation?
Clover Hogan:
We're asking everyone who comes on this season of the podcast to share a climate confession. I'll go first. My — most recent climate confession is that I just went on holiday to Spain. I took a week off, which was glorious, but I did not take a train or a boat. I very much flew there. So that is my confession of the week. Is there a climate confession on your mind, Christiana?
Christiana Figueres
Oh, absolutely. Transport actually is definitely my bane there. Definitely. I'm very happy with my light transport, with the vehicle that I use. I really, I'm very happy with that. But I do fly for work and I do fly to see my family. And honestly, I feel that I want to do that. Keeping in touch and close touch with my family is important to me. That is why Clover, I just don't think that we're headed for a world in which we're going to give up flying. I really don't think so. And so that's why it's really important to me that there is now increasing investments into alternative aviation and maritime fuel, because those two areas that are heavy transport, it's just crazy that we're still using fossil fuels. So I don't call those hard-to-abate sectors. I call them half to abate sectors. And I do think that within... maybe five to 10 years, we will have many other options to still transport ourselves long distance with heavy transport and without the emissions. Because in my book, it's not the flying that it's a problem, it's the fuel that is used by aviation, or it's not the boat that's a problem, it's the fuel that is used by the boat. And so my focus is on the fuel, not on the activity.
Clover Hogan:
Very good reframe. Thank you so much, Christiana. I wish we could speak for hours, but I want to respect your time. And I'm just very grateful for this conversation.
Clover Hogan:
I really valued how Christiana stressed the importance of finding common ground, connecting on a human level, and creating spaces that foster genuine dialogue and understanding. Now, Christiana has largely worked from the inside: engaging directly with decision-makers, through processes like COP. But this conversation wouldn’t be complete without hearing from someone who has worked from the outside in. Someone who hasn’t asked for change at the negotiating table, but demanded it from the outside. Someone who has quite literally taken to the streets. So, I invited my friend Luisa Neubauer to share her experience as a climate justice activist and one of the most notable figures in the youth strikes for climate movement.
Luisa Neubauer:
So my name is Luisa Neubauer and I'm a climate justice activist with Fridays for Future in Germany.
Clover Hogan:
You speak so eloquently to this experience that a lot of young people today can relate to of not learning about the climate crisis in school, not seeing it on TV when our parents watch the news, like not talking about it at the dinner table, and then this kind of moment of awareness and the weight that can come with that. What was that moment for you?
Luisa Neubauer:
It's a good question. I think a lot of people, you know, they ask me, oh, when did it click when it comes to the climate? And I think sometimes we kind of mix up what this clicking is about. Because to me, understanding that we in a that we are in a climate crisis doesn't mean it has clicked unless you then change something in your life. So for me, understanding what crisis we're in has to do with action. Understanding without action to me means, I'm not sure if you've really understood it because, you know, after all ecological breakdowns everywhere, they're questioning everything that we do and they're questioning our priorities in life. And, you know, As long as we have a single privilege, you know, understanding the climate crisis to me means using that tiny privilege that we have somewhere and doing something about it. So of course I understood at some point that something was wrong and I learned about the climate crisis, or at least I learned a bit about it in school and I found out that some of our policies were really bad, but looking back, that wasn't really understanding it, that was maybe knowing more about it. understanding what was going on. That happened years later when I was in university and I sat there. I'm a geography student and I learned, you know, every single details about the climate breakdown and I learned, you know, what molecules were working with, what other molecules, and I learned about every single region in the world and I learned the details of what was going wrong and what is going downhill right now, but not... single moment some professor would stand up and tell us about, you know, what to do about it. And that was a moment for me that I just, you know, didn't want to sit still anymore. I found it so unfair that you would, you know, bury us under the knowledge of what was wrong and not mention in a single moment how to do things right, how to fix things. And yeah, and that is when we changed stuff. And that was when we in Germany started to school strike with many others together.
Clover Hogan:
You mentioned the start of the school strikes for climate and actually taking to protest in the street. At what point via that protest did you start engaging with people in kind of higher and higher positions of power?
Luisa Neubauer:
was by then it was December,:
Clover Hogan:
I mean, I love for one that you asked that question of like, what do you mean you? Like as the leading question. That's so interesting. I hadn't heard that story before. I feel like that is a unique reaction. I feel like that is definitely not what happened in the UK. They're like, we're just going to pretend that you don't exist until you stop taking to the streets. But I guess, you know, you talked then about your own perception. engaging in this and not necessarily even talking about systems change, but being like, yeah, this is kind of dropped off the radar, we need to put it back on, like, we need to recenter the conversation. What, how did your perception change as you started engaging with those people?
Luisa Neubauer:
Yeah, very good question. Because I mean, what came like, what came next? And I think that's a very interesting, actually part of our evolution in Germany, it was Because people nowadays speak of a generational conflict and the climate crisis. And I don't really agree. I don't think that there is, you know, inherently a generational conflict, but generational conflict did emerge when we, when we kind of started rising up in Germany, not because we said, you know, you told the generations, we don't like you and you took away our future, you know, we kind of made this generational justice point clearly. But once we kind of grew bigger and the media was everywhere. It was an incredible coverage. And, you know, we met the minister, we met the co-commission in Germany that was deciding over our coal exit, which was our leading topic of the time. We, you know, the parliamentarians would write to us, the other ministers kind of started to come up. What happened then, the moment that I think, you know, the political system realized, oh damn it, they're not going away and we will have to deal with that. That very moment that they kind of lost their excitement over the idea to just talk us down, that very moment they started swearing at us and calling us names and really, you know, you know, showing a very, very dark side. And that was a moment that they started to me, the generational conflict when they kind of, you know, claim that we are too young to understand the world. When They said, you have no idea of what you're doing. You don't know what you're talking about. How dare you? They started kind of the, how dare you conversation. It wasn't Rasha, I think. It was really them who were all about, how dare you to not go to school and so on. And I was confused. I was like, wait, wait. What is happening here now? For years, young people have been shamed by politicians for not being interested in politics and for being too lazy and for looking away. And the moment that we stood up, You shame us again for being there, for being out there. You know, that's not, we're not gonna sit still here. And so I very, in very early months, then kind of understood, wow, we are up against something much bigger than just reaching a climate target. We are in the midst of a huge cultural shift. Certain generations and certain groups, they will fight for health to prevent that actual transition, these shifts from happening.
Clover Hogan:
That’s a powerful reframe of where a lot of that divisiveness kind of originated from because I think it's one of the biggest kind of like fallacies around young people who are engaged in politics and activism as like, oh, you know, they just can't work with older generations or they're pointing the finger and it's like, I've been in those rooms and the people hurling moral accusations are not the young people, they're the adults in the room who should have the wisdom and experience to know better. Given that realisation that you had of how much deeper this runs, how has that changed the way that you engage with people in positions of power? with decision makers?
Luisa Neubauer:
Oh, good question. To be honest, I think, you know, after, I think back then, after we started the school strikes in Germany, I think three months after we, or four maybe, we met President Macron in France. Five months after we met nine other heads of state of One and a half years later, we met Angela Merkel, then we met her again. We met President Obama, we met him again. I'm not trying to flex, but I'm trying to, you know, we met, we had so many of these conversations and I think they're crucial and we need to have them. I think everything that is happening around these conversations though, eventually matters more. And I think that is beautiful. That says so much about our democracies, that it's not about that single conversation that you have and it's not about... you know, providing the facts to a head of state, but it's about, you know, providing the facts, but also the culture and the hope to people everywhere to then be empowered to change, you know, to rise, to build power that challenges the status quo. And for me, I think those conversations that I have now with political leaders and so on, They have, to me, evolved to be, I would almost say, more of a learning opportunity of where they're coming from and how they perceive certain issues. And of course, we try to come with the best facts, and we always bring scientists when we go into these meetings and we bring, you know, also news from the society saying, you know, oh, look, our big church, whatever collective has now said they want more climate justice. And we have bonded with the farmers who say we want more climate justice for them to see they don't lose people with climate policies, they win people with climate policies.
Clover Hogan:
I guess have you in the process of engaging with like traditional spaces of power changed your own perspective on how you think change is actually going to happen?
Luisa Neubauer:
Oh, very much. Very much. Because, you know, after all I told you, I thought in the beginning it was just a bad mistake, you know. you know, some crazy busyness coming along, you know, you know, oh no, the climate kind of lost about that, lost track about that. But it's, and so of course I understood that there is a deliberate, you know, that's a choice to not, to just not tackle climate transformation that we desperately need everywhere. And, and I of course had to recognise that, you know, we need to understand politics of power and, and how that works and that. for bold decisions. It's about very unlikely alliances. It's about momentum. It's about raising the costs of inaction. It's about building bridges so that we incentivize bold steps politically spoken. After all, I had to realize that the facts are great. But everything around the facts is politically spoken more important. Because I think when we look at today's politics, whether that's in the UK or in Germany or anywhere else, we'll find out that a lot of what is being said is to an extent, I won't say it's all rational, but it's a political culture much more than political facts that we are talking about.
Clover Hogan:
And I suppose the youth strikes for climate and extinction rebellion and so many of these people power movements are evidence that we won't solve this crisis with the same methods that created it.
Luisa Neubauer:
Yeah, very much.
Clover Hogan:
a pretty historic movement in:
Luisa Neuabauer:
I was just like, what was that? Okay.
Clover Hogan:
You're like, oh, that was already like two whole years ago. I've done like 20, I've stood 20 governments since then. But I'd love to hear, yeah, would you mind sharing a bit about that experience?
Luisa Neubauer:
Yeah, so I mean, yeah, I think what we of course, And I think luckily climate movements are recognizing this everywhere. What we need is like a spectrum of methods that we are applying. There's not that one method that will lead anywhere. It's about a diversity of tactics and methods. It's about alliances and it's about making the most of our democratic systems that are technically they are equipped to tackle crises. With the climate it's tricky, but there are tools we can use. And what we did in Germany after we had, you know... really millions of people down the street and our government was still reluctant to go as far as needed. We were like, okay, fine, then see you at court. And we went to the Constitutional Court in Germany, which is the most powerful legal institution that we have. And we went to the Constitutional Court to say, hey, we don't think that our current climate law is in line with our constitution. And the constitution, and we kind of, you know, of course we went there because we thought we were right. But You know, we didn't expect to be right. And crazily enough, one and a half years later, the Constitutional Court emailed us and said, yep, you're right. And it was crazy. It was with, of course, like most things that we do, it was with great alliances of NGOs, of young people. I was the lead plaintiff, but I wasn't the only plaintiff. There were young people from Bangladesh and from Germany. And it was... It was really something beautiful that emerged there around this constitutional case, which without ambihumbleness actually says Neubauer versus Germany. I only found this out later, by the way, like months later on a climate conference. Where was that? Glasgow, where people on the floor said, I drew the girl from the Neubauer versus Germany case. And I was like, oh, in Germany, we don't call it that name. But it's cool to find out that people learn about this. Anyhow, we went to court and the Constitutional Court said, basically climate inaction endangers the freedom of future generations. And that's awesome because it means we can actually reclaim our understanding of freedom, which often... times or in the last years especially, liberals has kind of occupied as a very fossil fuel term of, you know, fast cars and eating as much meat as you want and, you know, having a right to fly five times a day. But actually freedom is something very different. And the Constitutional Court said, no, freedom, you know, the freedom to choose your own life, freedom to kind of evolve as a society, that all will be under threat if governments don't stick to, not only the Paris Agreement, but to a carbon budget, which is really cool because they actually used the term of a carbon budget. So to say we need to stick to some amounts of CO2 that we have left to emit on a national scale, but also for companies and so on and so forth. So yeah, that was fun. And then I think though what is important to understand about these cases, because afterwards, you know, people ask all the time, oh, will we solve the climate crisis at court? No, we won't. The courts will help us. But the important work behind those court cases and what very much counts for our court case, the important work was done on the streets. It was done when societal changes happened, when normative changes happened. And those changes didn't happen in my living room or in the living room of my lawyer or wherever, but these happened in the living room of a million people or millions of people around the country who sat down and talked about the climate and what was going on and what we need to do. That is how norms change, how cultures evolve. And the Constitutional Court wouldn't have made this decision five years ago without a vibrant movement that was visible to the people, without political players being, oh, we have to talk about the climate. And that I think matters a lot. There is no shortcutting through courts, but once we do the hard work on the streets, ideally courts are in place to prove us right.
Clover Hogan:
It's... really powerful what you're saying, because I think... So often in climate, particularly like, I'm sure you've experienced this, like going to like co-op and different climate conferences. It feels like everyone's like scrabbling for a silver bullet solution. And sometimes you're almost like being pitched at, like people are like, no, this is the thing that's gonna solve the climate crisis. This is the thing that's gonna solve it. And it's like, you know, you're framing of like, it's this entire ecosystem of things that are needed all the time. And that wouldn't have happened as incredible and historic as that moment. was, it wouldn't have happened without planting all of these seeds elsewhere. And for me that's a very compelling invitation as well because it helps a greater diversity of people find their role in the movement. They can actually say, well maybe activism doesn't look like that for me, it looks like this.
Clover Hogan:
One final question for you, Luisa, and this is like a little bit of a silly one. I'm forewarning you.
Luisa Neubauer:
Strawberries! No. Jokes, okay.
Clover Hogan:
Hey, that could be a fair response to what I'm gonna ask you. So we are inviting all of our guests to share a climate confession. So a big focus of this show is normalizing imperfect activism, leaning into how we are human beings, we are by no means perfect, and also like poking fun at the whole concept of climate confessions because we're like, while we're following individual actions, let's actually talk about systemic solutions. So with that. I'm gonna share a climate confession, and then I'm gonna invite you to share one. This is one I legitimately feel guilty about. Some of the other ones I've been like, oh, you know, that's tea. But this one is actually pretty bad. So I recently learned that I can vote in the UK because I'm a citizen of the Commonwealth, right? So I'm an Australian. And so I'm like, this is incredible. I found out the day that registration was closing and I was like, this is amazing. Like I registered to vote. I harassed like 30 of my friends, like my Australian Kiwi friends. I was like, go vote, like posting on social media. Like I made such a like hoo-ha about it. Three days later. without my knowledge, the election happened. And I did not in fact show up to the polls and submit my vote. So for all of my like posturing about the importance of like individual showing up and voting, I did not vote.
Luisa Neubauer:
No, no.
Clover Hogan:
I know, but this is like, this has rattled me so much that I've like marked in my calendar, like every future election that's happening in the UK. So I don't miss them. But yeah, that's my climate confession. It's pretty bad.
Luisa Neubauer:
Ooof. A lot of people, like in Germany, I do think sometimes actually people consider me to sit like, kind of without shoes or even, you know, in a kind of potato bag in the corner of like stone. Sorry, stone.
Clover Hogan:
Just hugging a tree, like eating some granola.
Luisa Neubauer:
Yeah. So my, honestly, I think, but then, you know, my life, of course, is very different. I live in Berlin, like I lived downtown here and I travel, like I'm on trains half the week and on the internet the other time. So I think my climate confession would actually be that I'm much more, like that I'm by heart, much more eco than my climate activist friends here. So, you know, I would actually go sometimes, you know, I was in Venice the other day for a conference and it was a disastrous, like it was very long ride there on the train, beautiful as well, but also very long. And then we went through Venice and you know, in Venice it's, you know, I mean, the city is sinking, but also there's so little green stuff there that actually the city has decided to, to paint our bins green so people see more green because it's good for the brain, different story. And yeah, then I saw a tree there. And. You know. Yeah, I went and hugged it. And I, you know, my friends, we're all climate people, you know, and they looked at me like, oh my God, what are you doing? And I'm like, guys, that's so good for the soul. So I think for me, it's actually bad that I. And so, you know, when I when I get the time, when we go to our protests and we're on the trains, you know, I would actually have the bee wax thingies with my big bread, black bread that we have, you know, with all the vegan stuff on it. And I don't get to embrace my eco side so much as I wanted to, because that means you have to have some time to prep and so on. So it's for me, it's a big luxury. And but I do scare people away and I sometimes feel like, oh, my God, I'm such a stereotype.
Clover Hogan:
Wow. I love that confession. Amazing. Well, this has been such an incredible conversation. Thank you so much, Luisa.
Clover Hogan:
Christiana and Luisa have two pretty different approaches; but it’s clear to me that they’re both needed. You need the person protesting in the street, or gluing themselves to the building. You also need the person able to have the conversation inside. There’s no silver bullet solution: we need activism, political engagement, societal change, legal action, and a cultural transformation. Everyone has a role. This echoes what we’ve learnt this season. The climate crisis is a symptom of broken systems — from the food we eat, to the clothes we wear, to how we get around the places we live. We’re part of these systems; and it’s near-impossible not to participate in them. Which is really challenging, right? We’re existing in these systems while also trying to change them. Inevitably, that means we’ll be inconsistent — hypocritical, even. It may also mean that we recreate the same patterns we’re trying to change. This was clear in episode 7 with Mitzi, when we talked about the struggles of navigating big emotions like eco-anxiety — and the temptation to try and evade them by launching ourselves into action… rather than simply creating the space to feel. We saw how this turns into burnout, when we met with Fehinti in episode 6 and Ari in last week’s episode. We’ve learnt to measure our value against our achievements. We also talked with Sophia in episode 5 and Ziad in episode 3 about the trolling, scrutiny and comparison culture fuelled by social media — and how this manifests as fighting within our own movement. If there’s one thing these conversations have shown me, it’s that we all need to allow ourselves to be more human. To embrace our inconsistencies, and imperfections; in order to stop pointing the finger at one another, and work better together. We must surround ourselves with people who love and support us - even, or especially - when we make mistakes. We also must keep sight of the bigger picture. It isn’t enough to focus on what we’re fighting against; we need to reflect on what it is we’re collectively fighting *for*. What does a different world look like? And where are pockets of that future in the present? How might we plant and water seeds of compassion, love and kindness? These feelings aren’t at odds with the anger, sadness and frustration we all know too-well; but they’re what sustain us. Solving the climate crisis is not a sprint, but a marathon. We have taken the baton from the change-makers who have come before us — the Suffragettes, members of the Civil Rights movement, and the Stonewall uprising — and it is also up to us to pass it on. Thank you for joining me on this journey. If there’s one thing you take from this season, I hope it’s our tagline: we don’t need 100 perfect activists; but millions of imperfect ones.
Clover Hogan:
How did today's episode make you feel? Let us know by heading over to Force of Nature's instagram, @forceofnature.xyz, and dropping us a comment. If you’re between the ages of 16 and 35, you can join Force of Nature’s growing online community and access our free programmes and trainings, which help you develop the skills to take action. You can also find resources on our website. If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast... well, you know what to do. This show was brought to you by Force of Nature and OneFinePlay. From OneFinePlay, Kasra Firouzyar is the editor and producer. Connor Foley is the producer and researcher. From Force of Nature, I’m your host, Clover Hogan, and this season would not be possible without Meg Stillwell and Isabel Flynn.
