This episode highlights the important role community colleges play in supporting veterans and military-affiliated students as they transition into higher education. The B2B team sits down with Patrick Forystek, Director of the Michigan State University Center for Veterans and Military Affiliated Students, to discuss how community colleges create a strong sense of belonging and offer personalized support. Together, they explore the cultural differences between community colleges and universities, emphasizing the need for institutions to meet the diverse experiences of veteran students.

Mentioned This Episode

Website: MSU Center for Veterans and Military Affiliated Students

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Website: Lansing Community College Center for Veteran and Family Support

Welcome to B2B boots to books, the show where we explore the journeys of veterans and military connected students as they navigate their paths from service to the classroom and beyond.

I'm Dustin Abrego.

And I'm Rebecca Allen, your hosts.

Each week we'll dive into powerful stories of resilience, determination, and success.

Whether you're a veteran yourself or a military family member, or simply inspired by the strength of those who serve, you're in the right place.

Let's turn the page and start this incredible journey together.

Hello.

Welcome back to B2B.

I'm Dustin Brago.

And I'm Rebecca Allen.

And this week we are joined by Patrick Forstek.

Patrick, where do you work?

Where are you at?

I work.

So I'm the director for Michigan State center for Veterans and Military Affiliated Students.

Formerly the Student Veterans Resource center, but we changed our name about a year ago to better reflect our changing student population, the amount of military dependents we serve.

So what overall do you do then at MSU with that?

I know, let me just one sentence.

What do you do as a work?

No, I love the question.

Lots of stuff.

I get that a lot.

I always joke we don't do a lot, but we also do a lot.

So my office tends to be the starting point for most military affiliated students if they're not sure where else to go or if they're navigating things around that military identity, whether they're GI Bill benefit, state, federal benefits, or looking for services.

Again, we tend to be that starting point and we can get them served or get them out to whatever office they need to go to quicker.

Okay, so like a starting hub for people, but then also social aspects because I think you all lean into that aspect of that.

What does that look like for you all?

So we work with our students, our current students, advising a couple student organizations.

We've got a Student Veterans of America chapter.

The law college has a Student Veterans of America chapter.

We've got an MBA veterans group.

We've got a. Oh, I always forget the name of it in there.

They're hopefully not listening to this, but Sam Ops, it's the Osteopathic Med military affiliated group.

And we kind of support that community and that culture on campus as well, along with the more administrative tasks.

So how many student veterans are at msu?

Quite a few more.

Great question.

So roughly we have around 25 to 2,600 military affiliated students.

Somewhere in the ballpark of 2,000 of those are military dependents and about 500 ish.

Our vets are currently serving.

And there's considerable over overlap.

You know, we have a handful of students that are going to MSU with their spouses, so they're both a dependent and a veteran each, but yeah, roughly around 25, 2,600.

That's awesome.

That's 10 times maybe the amount that we have overall.

So it's always interesting to hear.

You know, it's a big school.

So it's about 4% of the between 4 and 5% of the student population.

So comparable to other institutions our size, again, we have 51, 50, 2,000 students.

So we're going to have higher numbers.

And again, dependents make a huge chunk of that and we've kind of shifted our mission a little bit.

Cool.

Awesome.

So we wanted to bring you on today because there is always kind of a question about community college versus university.

I know Dustin hears it a lot.

I've heard it a lot.

My background, this is my first time working in higher education, so I'm only really familiar with the professional side of community college.

Dustin's had both.

What's your background as far as.

Yeah, great question.

So I started my career at a small regional public.

We had about 12,000, 13,000 students at the time, maybe 15.

Then I moved to metro Detroit based business nonprofit college where we had about 4,000 students.

And the really interesting thing about that experience, and I'm glad you brought me on for this because we did primarily grad degrees, but we did undergrad, but we only did upper division.

So I worked really closely with Macomb Community College, Oakland Community College, schoolcraft to do like two plus two programs.

So you spend a lot of time on community college campuses talking to students about exactly this kind of stuff, how you can use community college.

What benefits does going to community college have?

I've been there since about seven years now.

Awesome.

I'm working at a very different ball game, much larger public institution where my student population at Michigan State is more than half of the entire student population at the last school I worked at.

Wow.

All right.

So you've got a pretty diverse background in higher ed then too.

I've had some different experiences, yeah.

Awesome.

So one of the things that I wanted to talk about today was what the difference in culture is.

So I know we were kind of talking about this on our way over here today.

You guys have an active student Veterans of America chapter.

We don't really have that here.

Just there's a lot of differences as far as our population.

So what kind of differences do you see as like a residential university versus like we're a commuter college here?

That's a tough one because I think, you know, there's really good culture over here.

So the differences might be a little bit more nuanced.

I tend to think we have students for a little bit longer.

Although we were kind of again, joking about this on the way over is with vets especially, they want to get to the end as quick as possible.

So, you know, from an outsider looking in, you might think, oh, we haven't for four years.

Really don't.

They're coming over as transfer students.

So, you know, maybe two years, two and a half, three years on the really high end.

Those are for students that are doing complex programs or maybe change their major a few times.

But what I think we see culture wise over there, that I didn't experience as much at my, we'll just say my last two schools, which again, at my last one it was probably set up more like a community college is the buy into the culture and the identity piece.

And we see this a lot through one of the programs that we do over the summer.

We partner with the Warrior Scholar Project.

And Michigan State brings sort of some.

Something different to the table there.

This is a big four year public institution.

The huge campus, football team, basketball team, hockey team.

We've got school pride, school pride.

A lot more of that kind of stuff going on where I think, you know, in my experience working with community colleges, the culture can still be really outstanding.

But Michigan State, you're bringing a lot more stuff, for lack of a more complexity stuff to that.

Things for students to engage in, things for students to do.

I don't know what the current number is.

I think over a thousand registered student organizations.

So it's one of those things.

Again, I know you all have that here.

We probably just have more of it because there's more students.

But it's hard to have a student that can't find something to do.

Some interest they have will be represented.

Where you say you need what, three people and an advisor to start a group.

We can find something for them to do.

So I think we'll see a lot more at our level.

A lot more depth, expansive stuff.

Yeah.

Ways to engage.

Absolutely.

And that was.

I feel like that's one issue that we run into here is.

Quote, issue.

Quote issue.

Yeah.

Is having that student engagement in, in a meaningful way.

Like we, we can try all day and we have some students that are really, really involved and really excited to.

To do things, but because we don't have as many students.

Absolutely.

So I.

That is, that is one.

One concern that I think can come up between university and community college.

Absolutely.

I think also the amount of.

We offer a lot more online classes, even fully online programs.

I believe only at the master's level.

I think.

Yeah, we did not have any of the undergrad level.

Correct.

Right.

So, like, we didn't necessarily fully pivot away from doing a lot of those, which has helped in various ways.

But then when I said problem, it's, we would like to inspire people to be engaged.

These are good metrics that we try to view overall, because usually students that care about where they're at do better overall, for sure.

But if they are non traditional in the way of being older in our age range or other things, or have a family or commute or even they're on base like all these other aspects.

Maybe we're filling the gap of what they need.

But when we compare it down the road, to you all, it looks like, oh, I wish we could do it a tailgate.

I don't know.

Yeah, I tell you, you know, it's not, it's not all sunshine and rainbows.

We still have similar issues.

You know, one of the things that I realized when I came from my last institution in Michigan State is in order for a vet to get into Michigan State, generally speaking, they have to have community college or they'll likely come from a community college.

They have to have transfer credit.

So we're, I mentioned this earlier.

We're not getting them for a full four years.

They're coming over with 30, 40, 50 credits.

So not to the extent that you all see it, but we still see lot of that quick changeover.

You know, one of the things I mentioned when we were walking in this morning was, you know, it might take a couple semesters for a student to want to get involved.

Then they get involved and they get an officer role and they take over and then they graduate.

So we lose that institutional knowledge just as quickly as when I work really closely with community colleges.

Because vets as returning adult learners, generally, they want to get to the end as quick as possible.

They get that job.

School is the mechanism for that.

School isn't the thing they're.

They're coming to experience.

So we actually see a lot of those same, same issues.

But I think that you alluded to this, just having higher numbers makes a little bit easier to do those programs because, you know, we might have the Same engagement percentage, but if we've got 500 vets, 10% of 550.

10% Of, you know, you get the idea.

So, yeah, we've definitely got some advantages there.

And something we've leaned into a lot over the last couple years is taking advantage of the stuff I mentioned earlier.

Right.

So if you're coming to a Michigan State and you want to get engaged with the sva, they'll do private stadium tours with Sparty.

And that's something that, you know, we have in our back pocket.

I know they're super fun.

You get to see the locker room and go out in the field and the media deck and everything.

And it was laugh because when we do the locker room, it's sort of underwhelming because you think it's going to be this big fancy thing.

It is in the training facility, not the locker room.

They spend four hours in six times a year.

That one's not as nice, but the students love it.

And it's a really good way to engage with campus in a unique way that not every student gets to experience.

And again, we try to lean into that, that MSU identity a little bit.

So you've mentioned identity a few times and that is one thing that I kind of wanted to touch on when we're here.

When we have our students here, especially in, when they're coming over to our student center, they feel like they belong there.

You know, it's.

Yes, we have a smaller number of students, but that also helps them feel a little more close knit sometimes.

Are you finding at all from universities that especially for adult learners, non traditional students, students who are coming in who are maybe a lot older than the traditional college student, do you think that there's any kind of like struggle for them to feel they're adapting or.

Absolutely.

Starting to, to fit into that?

Absolutely.

And I think that's where, you know, the community college has, or it's felt like has an advantage.

I hear the same thing from students every year and I laugh because I've been doing this long enough that it's almost like a copy paste or a stamp of.

I feel so much older than all the other students.

I know, it's okay.

And you know, I think at the university level, especially like in Michigan State, we really do tend to cater more to our traditional students.

It makes up a large percent of our population.

Sports for sure.

So, you know, if you're a returning vet, that's, you know, in your early 20s, you're gonna, especially as an undergrad, you're gonna go to classes that are primarily, you know, freshman, sophomore classes are large, 400, you know, folks in a math class and they're all younger than you.

So, you know, that's something where I think our students will struggle with a little bit more, especially if they haven't transitioned through community college.

Because I know, you know, my experience, I didn't go to a community college, but I went to a regional public and we had a lot of returning adult learners.

So I'd be in classes with people of all ages.

That really, as a returning vet, helped because I could talk to people, different people in class that I identified with more.

So that's definitely something where I think we as an office try to fill that gap and provide those community pieces where they may not get it in class or that individual student might not feel comfortable in that environment.

So we try to provide a home for them.

And one of the things.

I don't know if we'll get to this later.

I do want to bring it up because I've always liked this because we were talking about student orgs and our SVA is doing well this year, actually.

I'm really impressed with their effort the last year and a half to years.

There's a lot of growth, but one of the things we really try to do with these students is help them find a home anywhere.

So we have a lot of students that didn't have a great time in the military, but they want to get involved on campus.

And again, with the campus rsis, there's a lot of other opportunities to do that with other orgs.

We push them in those directions too.

Service fraternities, you're in the engineering club if you're an engineering student, that sort of thing.

And again, we're very lucky that we have such a massive student organization machine running that there's just so many options.

I like that you guys do push them to other organizations, you know, if SVA doesn't feel like a good fit for them.

But I think one thing that we've discussed quite a bit is a lot of our veteran students, they come away from the military and they're still missing a lot of that camaraderie.

And I know that even as a non traditional student returning to university, for me there was that gap and I did feel like I didn't really fit in.

But it would have been really nice to have like.

Sure.

A club team or something that you could do that we don't have.

Yeah, it doesn't have to be sva, but it has to be somewhere where I can sit down and I can have a conversation with people and feel like I fit in.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That's, that's the goal.

Right?

That's the goal.

We want them to, to stay connected however they, however they can, whatever works best for that student.

And you know, we always talk of like sense of community and sense of belonging and I like to.

What does that really mean?

There's some accountability there.

When you have friends that go to campus, you're in a club, you know, if it's not necessarily academic, but they see you maybe slipping on your grades a little bit or you're not as involved or, you know, for whatever reason, it's, it's a way for some accountability to be there with, with some of your friends and there's just so much value in that.

Yeah.

Wherever you find that home.

Yeah, that was one of the things that I kind of wanted to touch on.

I'm not sure if we'll be able to get to the full discussion of it, but having some people say that if you attend like a community college instead of going to university, you're missing out on that college experience.

And I feel like if you are able to join in one of those groups, even if it's just you are getting to know some of the other students in your classes, even if you aren't from the same age range or from the same background or anything like that, having people that can help keep you accountable can definitely help with that similar experience.

Absolutely.

That's something.

Especially having worked at an institution where we had a lot of those two plus two programs.

And I worked really closely with community colleges.

There's advantages to both.

And I know we may get to talk about some of the myths later, but that's definitely one I've experienced that, you know, there are certainly advantages to going straight to a four year school and there are advantages to spending more time at a community college.

And it's almost, you know, based on your personality or what you want to get out of, what your strengths are because.

Yeah, I've heard arguments both ways and they both definitely have their advantages for the right person.

Yeah, you talked about the college experience and what people assume what that means is I can go to a four year, I can go to a tailgate and I can party and then whatever.

And I don't know because you both served and I did not right of college allows like if we were to really break that down, what you would want is an aggregate of people that are at a place that you would Never interact outside of the community that you lived in.

If you're in service or have done service, you did that kind of already.

Absolutely.

So do you need to always.

Like, that's really what people want, is to have experiences outside of the community that I'm from and what that looks like and interact with a bunch of different people?

I think that's what if we were like, what we would want it to be.

But if you've done that in service, maybe you don't want to do that at a four year and what that looks like overall, I don't know.

That came to me and what I was thinking.

No, that's a really good point.

I. I can't speak for my husband, but he was straight out of high school, joined the Marine Corps, six years active duty, and then went to a university.

By then he was like, I don't, I don't want to do the tailgate stuff.

I don't want to go to the football games.

I don't want to go party like I'm 29.

Like, I don't want to do this anymore.

It's because he's already had a lot of those experiences.

Yeah, exactly.

So he was like, I just, I want to graduate, I want to get my degree, I want to commission and I want to move on.

So, I mean.

And that's still, that's still a very valid experience, for sure.

Yeah, it's a tough one too, because, you know, I think as an institution you get some assumptions here, but there's this expectation that we have these active veteran organizations.

You have an SVA in Michigan State.

The SVA has a little bit more of a prominent role in student government.

Right.

So there's this desire to have it.

And I've experienced what you're talking about a lot more is with a lot of our student vets that are returning to school, you know, we may say, hey, this is, you know, the data shows that it's better for you to be involved.

And that's true.

But half of them married, half of them have kids.

About 1 in 3 have a service connected disability.

I have students commuting from Grand Rapids, Fenton, all kinds of, you know, different locations over the years where they just don't need that or they don't want it.

It's nice to know it's there.

And they may join a tailgate or two or three in their time on campus or, you know, however long that is.

But for a lot of them, they don't necessarily want those support services or they don't want them in the way that we're currently delivering them.

And I wonder, too, how much of that is, you know, is it really needed?

Is a student getting what they need out of it?

I guess is really.

And, you know, I find myself sometimes having to remind myself that, okay, you know, it's okay if the SVA isn't having a really big year this year.

They're getting what they need out of it.

Yeah.

That's a tough one to navigate, though, with.

With older students.

I. I feel like that's something that we.

We are trying to figure out how to navigate, too.

And I, you and Andrew have done a great job with a lot of our more adult learners.

Our.

Our older veterans who are coming in.

They've got a job, they've got a family, they've got kids.

Some of their kids are old enough to attend college themselves.

Yeah, they are sometimes.

And so I feel like understanding how to provide those supports.

Absolutely.

And I feel like here it's.

I don't know, we have some of those older students that'll come into the vet center, and they've brought their families in, they've brought their kids in, and it feels like it's a good place for them to come in and connect for a while.

But not necessarily.

They don't necessarily want to join the sva.

That's not necessarily a good fit for them.

About.

It's not because they don't want to.

It's because, well, I have to take them to gymnastics.

I have to.

Whatever.

They want to be invested in the.

Community and do this stuff.

But what do the services look like?

Because when we make stereotypes of.

Yes, the data shows that if you're engaged and involved, but if the students are already engaged and involved, and they already are like, I am.

I am an msu.

I am a Spartan.

You know, I'm a star.

Which doesn't sound as cool.

It never gets to me.

Do.

Do we need to be hitting those metrics and whatnot?

And one of the things that I wanted to ask that's kind of in here is, do you hear a lot of students saying, I just don't want to get lost in all of the big numbers?

Because that's a conversation I have with students sometimes of where I'm like, you should take some more classes here, because I'm getting them to stay here.

But I was like, if you don't take these ones, you're going to be in a lecture hall of 400 people.

Because I know that you're going to have to take, like, English, too, or whatever.

Right.

And people want the next, like, the like experience, but then realize that.

I think this is correct because when we earlier had said like residential university, that means people live on campus primarily.

Right.

I think you all have the largest on campus student population, I think, in the world.

I'd have to check the quote on that.

And I think people get that because you occupy how many zip codes, like the school does.

Right.

Live on requirement, so freshmen and sophomores have to live in the dorm.

So do you hear and.

Or interact with a lot of students that are like, I'm overwhelmed.

There's just so many people of just everything.

Yeah, Yeah.

I think that's another common concern we have of.

It's a big bureaucratic machine.

Right.

And I think one of the things I alluded to in the beginning is we help people navigate that.

But to your point, we do get that concern a lot is it's a big thing to navigate.

And.

And we have several colleges, and because MSU is so siloed, those students are all navigating very different systems.

If you're a student in College of Social Science, your experience is inherently going to be a little bit different than the students in the College of Nursing or the broad College of Business Engineering.

Any of those.

Yeah, they're all navigating similar but very different in interesting ways systems independently.

And again, we get a lot of those questions and concerns.

But, yeah, this is a very big, big system to navigate.

Do we want to do myths versus facts?

I feel like that's a fun one.

Yeah, let's do it.

Okay.

All right.

So one of the myths that I've come across for community college is that it's considered a lower quality.

Yeah, that's a.

That's.

That's one.

I always.

I laugh because I have the opportunity at Michigan State to work with a lot of transitioning service members.

And if you're out of high school for basically a calendar year, you're going to have to come in as a transfer student.

So a lot of our conversations revolve around tackling these myths over the phone with people that are.

You're out from EAs or ETS or whatever their branch calls it.

And yeah, quality is one of them.

No, you're going to absolutely get a quality education.

I just tell people, you know, you can take college algebra at Michigan State, MIT or LANS Community College, and you're probably going to learn the same thing.

College algebra, you know, do you know the Pythagorean theorem?

It's been years since I'VE taken college algebra, so that might even not.

Might not even fit into that.

But college algebra is college algebra.

Do you want to take it in a hall with 400 people, or do you want to take in a classroom with 25?

You're still learning the same thing.

And I think that quality piece is one that we often work directly on dispelling, because.

No, no, no, you're getting a quality education.

Absolutely.

No matter where.

You know, if you're going to a community college or straight to Michigan State.

I think as the student who had to retake STATS three times through our university.

College algebra.

Three times, yeah.

College algebra sent me to the Marine corps.

There were 75 people in that class, and I would have loved to have just gone to a community college, and there are 15, 20 people in the class.

We're having those conversations with students.

They're choosing their path.

That is a big selling point of like, hey, you're gonna have to take these classes no matter what.

This is a much more appealing path than you probably realize it is right now.

How do you navigate that conversation?

Because I'm the person that's supposed to be telling them academically what they're supposed to do, so I know our roles are different in that aspect.

Why do I have to do that?

I love.

I'm sure you get asked that, and I try to, like, you know, I don't know, higher level answer sometimes, but do you.

How do you answer that?

I don't get it framed that way, but that's absolutely the sentiment I think, that we get a lot of times.

So when we're talking to students, we're saying, no, you have to have some transfer credit to get in.

And honestly, if they don't have any at all, they're in a really great position versus, like, I'll pick on me because I went to school, didn't do so hot, joined the Marine Corps, left the Marine, Corps, went back to school.

I was fighting a.

Fighting an existing gpa.

Correct.

A lot of these people that haven't been to college at all.

No, you're in a great spot.

Like, this is an advantage to you.

You can go to.

We'll.

We bring up LCC a lot because of the proximity and various other partnerships we have, but we'll pick on lcc, and it's like, oh, no.

Go there for a semester, a year, two years, and just make sure everything transfers over to Michigan State just like you came here in the first place.

So kind of walking through with that total timeline looks like.

Because again, with These students, they generally want to get the degree to get the job.

And if I can frame in a way that.

No, no, this isn't going to slow you down at all.

This might even speed you up.

It changes that conversation.

Consider.

But why do I have to take history?

Why do I have to take English?

You gotta get.

What do you, what do you tell them to that.

Oh, that's what I mean.

You need, you just need the class.

I laugh with military.

So yeah, it's like, no, because you have to.

Sorry, bud.

No, we will have the conversation about, you know, the liberal education and learning.

Learning how to learn and all the other requirements that come with a degree.

I don't get that one as much though.

I think they generally understand they're gonna have to take those classes.

Maybe it's just me, maybe I just.

Get those I, maybe I will get occasionally.

You know, I don't think I should have to take this.

Ah, this is why I have to take it.

So.

Okay, fine.

Or you know, the inevitable conversation about joint service transcripts and what you get there.

But no, we, we don't get that one as much.

And maybe because I headed off with this, you know, silver platter of how great going to community colleges and how accelerate your learning.

We're so I get all.

That's why I get those.

Okay, you're welcome.

That's funny.

So community colleges only if you can't get into university.

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head with that.

Sure, sure, sure.

Because we've got students that I'm talking to some right now that they've gotten into four year schools and maybe they didn't get into Michigan State or they didn't get into Michigan State yet, but they really want to come back here.

And it's like, well, you might not want to go to that school on the east coast or school on the west coast that's closer to.

To where you are now.

Yeah.

Our thing is, especially with community colleges can be a real force multiplier and something that I don't want to miss out on because I know you all do a great job of it over here is extending how long their GI Bill benefits are going to last by finding other funding for them.

Our cost per credit hours.

You're going to want to use your.

GI bill benefit 3 or 4x probably.

I think.

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

So if that student can otherwise afford going to school and not relying on that housing allowance.

I know like you all have done a great job of pushing them into other funding streams so that 36 months of GI Bill can last so much longer that they can get that four year degree and a master's degree.

So we're really pushing community college as a, not a.

You can't get into the university because sometimes these students can.

They have the credits and the GPA to get in.

But it's still a better idea for many of them to spend a semester to at an LC to, you know, to your point, take some, take some of those prereqs in an environment that's a little bit smaller and we connect them with advisors because there's some classes, you know, you can take it at a community college, but that college really wants to see this version of it.

We'll walk them through that where it's applicable.

But generally we love sending them to a community college partner not because they can't get in, but because it's a great transition point.

The classes are smaller.

You know, if you haven't been to school in four, five, six years, it tends to be a more forgiving environment because you're not again, that class size.

You can actually go talk to your faculty member.

You're not talking to a ta, you're not talking.

Again, that size and complexity gets a lot smaller and easier to navigate I think at the community college level.

So no, certainly for people that don't have the admission requirements met yet.

Yeah, we're setting up community college, but that's not the only reason.

There's a lot of other ones that just simply benefit the student.

Yeah, I think we're gonna have to come back to another time because I think we have another bunch more myths and whatnot.

But Patrick, as far as if students want to get a hold of you though, how would they go about doing that?

Where would they find you?

Where's your office and building and whatnot located?

So easiest way if we're in a pinch.

Veterans Msu Edu is our website.

You can go through that to contact us.

All our contact information is in there.

If you're going through the admissions process, we're probably going to reach out to you anyway.

But yeah, our email is veteranssu.

Edu.

We've got a really great staff over there, plenty of student employees.

Somebody will answer you and help you out and we can walk people through that admissions process.

And like I said before, we don't solve a lot of the problems in my office, but we'll get you to the people that can pretty quickly.

Where are you located?

Oh, great.

Yeah, obviously.

That too.

Yeah.

Student Services Building.

Very fitting name.

We're on the north side of campus, right by the Broad Art Museum.

So if you're familiar with the building, I think it was Lex Luthor's house in one of the Superman movies.

Oh, shiny.

Yeah, no, I think it was the one with.

Was it Jesse Eisenberg was Lex Luthor?

Yeah, that one.

It was his house.

Or the outside of it was.

I don't know if they filmed on the inside, but anyway, we're right across the street from that very sort of famous building, so.

Awesome.

Patrick, thanks for hanging out with us.

We appreciate it.

Always a pleasure.

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