On this episode, the B2B team returns to the topic of choosing an educational or career path, while still following your passions. They discuss the unique experiences of veterans and military-connected students, as they transition to college, emphasizing the value of purpose when seeking fulfillment. It's a thoughtful conversation about finding purpose, avoiding burnout, and building a future that feels both rewarding and meaningful.

Website: What's the Point? - Tom Rath

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Website: Lansing Community College Center for Veteran and Family Support

Welcome to B2B, Boots 2 Books, the show where we explore the journeys of veterans and military connected students, as they navigate their paths from service to the classroom and beyond. I'm Dustin Abrego. And I'm Rebecca Allen, your hosts. Each week, we will dive into powerful stories of resilience, determination, and success. Whether you're a veteran yourself, a military family member, or simply inspired by the strength of those who serve, you're in the right place. Let's turn the page and start this incredible journey together.

Hello and welcome to continuation of an episode from earlier of Scattering youg Purpose, I Believe, Part two. I'm Dustin Abrego.

And I'm Rebecca Allen.

So where do we want to pick up from this time? Rebecca?

So I wanted to continue our discussion regarding choosing a major.

And one question that stuck out for me here as we were kind of going over stuff was the difference between choosing a major and why you're choosing it.

So for some people, they're considering their, their jobs or their majors based on how easy is it going to be for me to find a job, what kind of training do I have, especially if I'm coming from a military background, what's the job security like, what's the income like?

You know, I have to get that high paying job versus choosing something for your passion and finding something that you're actually gonna be dedicated towards. And I kind of struggled with that. I don't know if that was something maybe. I feel like most students probably have that balance at some point.

And I feel like we've talked with students fairly recently that have had that same. Well, I know that I need to be going through school and I need to be doing this. And I'll throw out a random example.

I like STEM things and so I need to be in a STEM field, but I have no idea what I'm gonna do with that. I'm gonna study chemistry. I don't know what job I'm gonna get from that, but I know that this is what I should be doing. How do you help students?

How do I do that? I think it's a huge point. And like you said, I think I struggle with it as well. I think a couple different factors.

For one, it helps that I'm reading a book right now. Tom Rath, if you've ever done StrengthsFinder Strengths Quest 2.0, it's called what's the Point?

Which is pretty funny and it's very direct and whatnot. And some different aspects that I think really stuck out to me. And I was like, oh, this makes a lot of sense. And I was reading it more.

So I love what I'm doing. I feel like this is my career path. This is a big passion of mine. Is it like, top level, my mission in life?

I don't know if I'm there yet, but it's very high up there for me. So when I look at this, it's the. I struggled with this for sure, in the beginning.

I think the pivot for me in a lot of students is when you're in high school and in other aspects, you're told where to go in the service too.

Right.

When we meet with a lot of people, if they've not been out for a huge amount of time or even if they have sometimes, and that's just ingrained in them now of this is when you eat. This is when you go to chemistry. This is when you do drill. This is when you do all these things, right.

Yeah.

Or if they're still in guard members, other things like that. And then I go, what do you want? Inherently, the question is, like, what ice cream? Like, I could tell you that. And it just is very confusing.

I think, overall, I think it's a bad question, personally. I think on this side of it, being professionals, I think we can ask a better question. I think, for one is exposure. What are they exposed to?

The amount of times that I've had conversations with people, which, again, none of these things that I'm bringing up are bad or whatever. It's. We get classified into groups without even thinking about it.

Yeah.

Of the people that want to go into business because their aunt or uncle. It's always an aunt and uncle, which is very interesting. Like, there's parents, Right. Parents tend to be from, like, education and doctors.

I see a lot of those. But for business, it's aunts and uncles. I don't know why.

If I were to do a cross analysis, I think I'd laugh really hard of, well, this is what someone told me I could make money at or I could do X or I'm doing this because this and that jump from, I'm doing this because I'm told to versus I like to. And I know that'd be something we'll talk about a little bit more later as well. I think that's the first step of, like, what do you even want?

I don't think people know inherently because you're 18 or you're in your 30s and you've never been even had the capacity to be able to ask that question because life has Just come at you in different ways, too. Yeah, but like, how do I help people with that? I start by asking a better question of, like, what are the things that they're actually interested in?

I've made some different tools. I think I've shown you some different things I made on Canva and stuff.

Of I like to ask students, like, how they like to spend their time, if they like interacting with computers or not.

But the big question always is, for me is at the end of the day, and I think we referenced this in part one, is do you like to physically see that you've completed something? Because when we both leave the office, there might be less papers on our desk, but it's digital, it's an email.

There's no, I completed this, I built this, I mowed this lawn, I fixed this car. There is no physical to that.

And for some people, and it's not, again, inherently good or bad because fulfillment or purpose and passion comes from giving to others. That's always a big aspect. Because if you're just doing it for yourself, eventually you'll get burned out if it doesn't make sense to you.

And if people say, no, I'm doing it for myself, it's scratching some itch that they're not describing. Well, in my personal opinion. But then also, if you need that because it's good, that's great.

Some people need and like stuff more than others in the sense of it's a passion, it's an art form. There's a science to being efficient.

Like, if you wake up and go to bed at good times and do all those things, that's a science, what you like, that's an art form. It's different to each person. What are you thinking? Because I just went through all of that and I get really, really jazzed about this.

So I could just like, keep talking at you, but I won't. I'm sort of great.

Honestly, the biggest thing that stood out to me from all of that is do you remember when we had Andrew on a few months back, we were talking about whether or not, you know, you're pursuing education, you're pursuing a certificate, but the importance of just having that training and having.

We've had several students that have said, well, I'm doing this because someone told me to, but at the end of the day, I'm just going to go work for my dad. So I'm doing this because this is what I was told to do. And I don't think a lot of those students have people like.

Like you who are stopping and asking them the questions. So I think knowing that those are the kinds of questions and not just asking, what do you want to do?

Because yes, we are asked all the time, what do we want to do? Even when you're enlisting, yes. You walk into the recruiter and they're like, well, you need to fill this role.

You get a good recruiter, they are going to ask you, what do you want to do? How do you want to serve your country? Things like that.

But we still don't really always have someone that's going to ask the hard question that's actually going to make us think about it. So I think that's really important.

And I think also some of the things that I was gathering from what you said of for me, even it was, this is what I have to do. And even the thought of community college, my parents, they were like, oh, that's beneath you. Which is a different mindset.

Clearly, I work here, so I have vested interests to say differently, but it would have saved me a lot of money, that's for sure. But I didn't know what I wanted to do.

So sometimes like you're a parent trying to explain why vegetables, why brush teeth, like very base level stuff that they're like, I don't like this. And you go, man, do I not care? Like, please just do this, because in the future it doesn't matter.

And then when you look back, you can say, I'm glad that someone made me do that, even though I didn't want to, because I've learned that this is good for me overall because inherently, as people will just want to, like eat Oreos and lay in the sun, man, does that sound like a good beach trip I'd want to be on? But like, long term, that's not going to benefit for what? The passion, fulfillment, the money, the other things in life that we ultimately want.

And for you as a parent and to put you on the spot in that way again of how do you convey that or for you gather that of conveying that to your kids. Because I think it's similar to I didn't know what I wanted and maybe for you of like go to college and were like, why just do it.

And I do agree with you that I don't think people either have the right fortitude or experience to ask those questions because I definitely didn't when I started or have those people in their life to say, go do this because it's good for you. And sometimes that's when they come back to us older, which is, there's nothing wrong with.

It's just some people don't have those people in their life. Yeah, but for a parent, how do you go about doing that?

I think for me it is more experiential. I will tell my kids, look, you don't want to do it, I don't want to do it either. But this, this is why we have to do it.

And you know, I said the same thing. Grandma told me that I had to do it and I questioned it. But then I learned this is why you have to do it, this is why it's important.

And yes, maybe you don't want to brush your teeth before you go to bed, but then, you know, I mean, I have a 7 year old, so it's, you know, once that tooth falls out, the tooth fairy is not going to want it if it's gross. So you got to brush your teeth before you go to be.

And I think if I had to translate that to working with our students, it would be more of a well, think about, especially if they're veteran students. Think about what this experience would have been like when you were still in uniform if you were given these options.

This is what it looked like for me.

I don't know exactly what your circumstances were, but just try to imagine you're sitting back in your unit and you're that senior NCO that has these kids asking you for this information. What would you want to tell them? What would you have wanted to hear from that nco?

What questions would you start thinking about asking these soldiers to motivate them and then stop and kind of ask yourself that too? What kind of advice would I want to give myself as a younger student or a younger soldier?

I ask that for some people.

In my experience, people that struggle with giving to themselves either because they don't have capacity, because the family, kids, they all this other stuff. What would you tell a friend? Yeah, I mean that works for being an nco. Obviously I didn't serve, so if it does make sense.

But people will often be very nice to a friend about what they would handle and do versus if I say you want to do all these things? Like yes. And I go, would you recommend a friend to do all these things?

If they came and said, hey, I'm gonna go to class, I live 40 minutes away, I have five kids and I'm working full time and I have all these other aspects and I think I wanna do this. And your friend would be like, are you gonna be okay? Cause that's A big commitment not talking you out of it, but.

Or maybe they would, they would just call you stupid. I have no idea. Depending on the friend. And maybe you need that sometimes. But I feel like framing it for does this make sense?

And I usually push back on the money aspect of this equals money. I go, great, okay. And sometimes that's where the conversation is, right?

I get 45 minutes with them maybe of what that is and we're not going to figure it out in one sitting. Usually that's even how I start the convo is like, we're not going to figure out your life purpose in this meeting.

I'll provide you some context and some guardrails where we're going. But doing it just for money, at some point you will burn out emotionally because you're not going to care.

And I'm not saying you should only follow your passion. I'm not saying that either because I think there is passion is something that is built.

I didn't say, oh, I'm passionate about student affairs, I'm first gen in college. I didn't know what the hell that meant. Like I didn't know these things.

But the purpose behind it is built by giving to others and what you think is valuable. What are those times where you're sitting and you're doing something? For me, it's talking to people. That's what I do. I get paid to talk to people.

That time goes by that flow state for people. What does that look like for you? And trying to get them to those thinking aspects because they never thought about in that way.

And that really like befuddles people in the moment.

So yeah, as someone who definitely chose a career path based on passion and I've, I've had several job changes within my career field over the last 10 years. Some of them were great paying, some of them were barely scraping by paying. But I still tried to follow the passion the whole time.

And you're right, it's really easy to burn out on that passion very fast.

And I think helping, helping people to understand how to find the balance between the passion and the pay is something that I would love to learn how to explore because I've never been able to completely find that balance.

You know, the lower paying jobs, I was still putting that same amount of passion in, but I was burning out faster because I couldn't take care of myself in the same way that I normally would. But then the higher paying jobs, there was also that added expectation because, you know, you're a federal employee, you're Making X amount. Da da.

So here's all the extra jobs, all the extra work too. So. And because I was passionate and didn't want to say no, I burned myself out faster too. So finding.

Not burning yourself out on that passion is really complicated, I think.

And again, if I'm trying to quote the book because it was really helpful for me and I literally read it this week and aspects of it is when you say go for passion, it assumes that people have one.

Yeah.

Maybe in their life they don't. They don't understand what that means. It sounds like crystals aligning chakra and whatever. Like, what does that mean? Like, I'm not.

I'm here to make money. What do you want? It assumes that the passion is fixated because the passion for you now is probably different than before.

Like maybe you started your family and like other things and even for different ages when we were in college, what passion would mean. And then also that once you have the passion that you'll then be fulfilled.

Yeah, I can be passionate about stuff and really like it, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to be fulfilled again. Right. Of what I do for those things.

Like, I can be really excited and have energy behind doing it, but if it exhausts you to the point to where it runs you out or other things, it's. That's too much. Then yeah, it doesn't make sense. And that balance and like that'll change for throughout your career as well too.

It's not a fixated point.

Kind of continuing with that same thread of burnout. Having that burnout when the path doesn't fit for you. So, you know, there's.

Yes, there's having the burnout on something that you're passionate about because you're just. Maybe you're going too hard into it because you're so excited about it.

But I've also been in the position where I chose something because I needed the paycheck.

Sure.

And it's the same thing where you can burn out because you're just. You don't really care about what you're doing. And I think, I think there are a lot of students that don't quite understand that too.

Sure.

Especially when they're looking at different career options. And again, I go back to the. I want to study STEM because I was told I have to study stem or I know that this is something that I can find a job in.

I don't know what that job is going to be. And then they get burnt out on it really fast because it's just not something that they care about at all.

Yeah. And I usually push back on those in different ways than like do you actually not care about this of where's the message coming from and where's it.

Are those, oh, this person told me to. Are they an advisor? Oh no. Okay. And not that I know I do this every day, all the time, constantly. I mean I read books about it in my own free time.

This is my passion. Right. But I enjoy it. It's like a career for me of what I want to do a couple different things.

When we talk about jobs, like I've made different like visual tools because that's very helpful. This is a talking medium so this is how it's going to come out. But it's helpful for some people to view it visually.

Like I have it as a pyramid where, like the, at the very base bottom, it's a job you're just doing for a paycheck. That's just where you're at. This is what you need to do.

Boom, boom, boom.

And that's fine.

If you have other fulfillment and other aspects of life, you're just doing a part time job, something like that, you're later in your career, really early, you have a family, all these other things. Sure. The next level would be career, like you're going to school, you've done a bunch of stuff to be able to do this. I feel like that's where I'm at.

I don't know about for you. And then beyond that I would say like this is like your mission of like life.

Like inherently I would view people that travel the world and volunteer or do type of stuff within religion where they give up all their things to do that. Like that's where my brain goes when I think about it in like movies and stuff.

Right.

But there's a bunch of other people that I know that like this is all that they do and they love it and they're passionate and they're really great to be around as well. Because I don't usually find people that are very passionate about their work that are very mean.

I, yeah.

How often do you have that? Like there's people that are annoying, but if they're passionate about their work, they're not saying, oh I gotta do it. Like those don't cross.

I, I, I would love an example. If someone can give it to me, comment on the show, let us know. I, I've never seen that.

Yeah.

I just don't think they overlap. But when we talk about trying to. Yeah. Just between the mission and then all the way down at the job level. It can be a lot. And confusing overall.

Yeah, yeah, it's. It is a weird balance that I don't think a lot of people consider at all.

And I do like the idea of having like trying to explain to someone like this doesn't have to be your mission in life and that it is okay to just have the job as long as you do have other ways to make sure that you are emotionally, mentally, spiritually fulfilled. Anything like that.

Yep. And I think making it your identity about certain things can be very challenging. And people. Oh, you're talking identity.

And it's like, no, that's not what I mean. It's when you say I am this, you've claimed that as part of your identity. And people do it passively all the time.

They say, I am a father, I am of this. And it was like, you could choose not to be. That's not a good thing. Right. Inherently. But you could choose not to do those things.

I usually claim the identity and someone had said this and I was like, this is really good. I say I'm an educator. That's what I say. I'm not an advisor. I'm not this. I'm teaching people all the time. That's all that I do.

And that's what I'm really passionate about and that's what I love doing. When people turn it into their identity without having other outlets or I believe that they fixate, truncate, whatever break themselves off into.

I'm this, I'm this level people. Again with our military connected students. Sometimes people that served. I'm this, I'm a grunt, I'm a this.

And these are just words that I've heard from the people that have said this. Like I'll always be this. And I push back. Not in a oh, you shouldn't say so mean things. Haha. Like, I hate that sugar type of language stuff.

And I think that's why I align well with our military students. But language has power. And when we don't say or when we use those things in a good way, like that's how you shape and construct your identity.

There is no limit to what you can do.

Ultimately, no, I'm not going to go be an astronaut and stuff, but my earning potential of what I could do in life and what position I could hold in leadership, there is nothing that is really keeping me other than myself. And that confuses people sometimes.

Yeah, no, that's. That's fair. So when we talk about identity. I've seen it with some of our students where they will hang on to that identity.

And sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. We've got our work study students who absolutely just own the I'm a Marine, or I did this, I did that.

And they don't make it their entire identity, but they hold that part of them.

And then we've had students that, well, I'm a retired senior nco, but you're also a student now, and you can't hold the mentality of, well, I was in the senior leadership position and still talk to people in that same manner. Your instructors aren't going to respond well to that. Your fellow students aren't going to respond well to that.

And I have found with some of my students I've been working with is that if they don't hang on to that identity, they do start to lose part of that motivation.

We have a student who we've been working with who I think has struggled to let go of that military identity, and that has really kept them from being able to thrive in school. And we've had a lot of conversations, provided a lot of support for this student. We.

But trying to make sure that they aren't still hanging onto, well, this is what I did. I don't get to do this anymore. And I want to just move forward. I still wanted to be in this career field on the civilian side.

I can't do that anymore. And so now I need to get through it so I can be done. But I don't know what I want to do.

Right. And again, for people that were listening, it's not letting go of your identity. There's always going to be a part of you, what they did.

But I mean, when you describe it, you know this better than me. Like, they're going through grief.

Yes.

Still heavily of grief of a sense of loss and the loss of the identity of what that means because they were this person and what does that mean? And they're continuing to struggle to figure that out. And it's always easier outside looking in. Right. That we can see that.

And if they're like, I want to do this, like, cool. But you keep not doing those things and then you keep coming to us for help. So we're going to push back and say, like, how are you navigating this?

What are you doing to handle these things? You're saying you want to do this and we're not telling you no. At some point government's going to tell you no.

With money and we know that that timer's ticking and we're not trying to stress people out, but we don't expect people to just have infinite money to just pursue what they want. None of those things. Like, those have to line up. And that can be the stressful part of making things work. But I think, like you said, of how do we.

The embracing of the identity, of how it can be a part of you and you can view it as a healthy sense. I think when you dig down and it's. It turns into gatekeeping and other things.

And if you want to act like that around other people, I think of my fiance, she would hate this. I'm doing this anyway. Very knowledgeable, like medical professional, knows her stuff inside and out.

You know, top of the class, all this stuff, everything. If she goes in an auto parts store. Nope, like, that's right. That is not her place. That is a sense where. And she's not the expert there at all. Right.

Of what's going on and those things. But she also doesn't go in there saying, I demand this and not that she would do this at work anyway, but I demand this and this.

And it's going to be like, you don't know what you're talking about. And you're just usually being rude.

If you go into a place assuming that this is how things work and not willing to learn, and especially because we're literally a place of learning, it just falls really flat. And I feel like that's where I see students struggle, spin their wheels, they over commit.

And I feel like most of my conversations are talking people out of over committing to things because they feel like that you don't find motivation on the ground. You don't have motivation. Motivation is movement. You go through it and practice it and become it.

And I think people think, well, I just get it off the shelf. If they sold that, that'd be the best product ever, forever. Yeah, but I mean, how do people figure out if they actually enjoy learning for you?

I mean, at what point was it for you a switch?

I feel like there was a moment and I can't quite identify it, but I know that I can kind of see where it was, where I realized, okay, I'm finally in something that I'm passionate about. Because I did. I had that, that switch that flipped when it came to the passion that I was looking for. And I started.

I think it was actually my abnormal psych class.

Oh, nice.

When I got into that and I was like, oh, okay. Like, this is not just. I'm not just reading things and doing, like, rote memorization. It's. I'm.

I care about this, and I want to continue reading about this. Like, I. I'm not just going to. I had structured homework time, but I got to the point where I had to.

I had to hold myself to the structured homework time, so I would stop instead of having to force myself.

I gotta do other stuff too.

Yes. Yeah. I really want to continue reading this. I think I was pregnant with my daughter at the time, and I. I have got to get up. I have to stand up.

Right.

So I think it was right around that time that I realized, yeah, this is something that I want to continue pursuing. I'm interested in doing this reading. This is fun for me. Then I got to my stats class, and that kind of dropped off a little bit.

So I kind of had that ebb and flow of motivation. But I was excited to continue learning at that point.

And I kind of had that feeling a few times when I, like, I'm learning a different language or if I'm taking a class here. Sometimes there's the excitement for it, and other times it's just. It's a little bit of a drag.

But again, that I think a lot of that has to do with where I'm at in life and finding that new balance for stuff.

And I think also, besides just the interest that you're talking about, I asked a very hard question that, you know, we prep for this. You're a professional at doing this as well, so you can answer it better than most people. Because usually there's not one time where you can go this.

It's not. You took your driver's test. Now you have a license.

Yeah.

It's a culmination of a lot of your points, and this is one that you could pull out, but it wasn't. You woke up and you're like, this is what I'm doing with my life. It doesn't happen that way. And it's much more slippery.

And I think people want it to be, like, an item that they can grasp and hold on to and be like, this is. I found it. And it's. It's not like that. I can't think back to one time where I go, I really like helping students. This is what I want to do with life.

This excites me. It was a bunch of different little data points of all these different things of like, this is fun. This is fun. This is fun. This is.

This is what I should do with my life. Yeah, it's that shifting emotion of things. But it wasn't all time probably.

Yeah, I think for me, like I, I have a very, a very clear start of when I started down like the path of I want to focus on mental health and psychology and veteran support. So I had the clear start.

But then it was a lot of little things after that that started pushing me towards where I am today and finally figuring out that, okay, yeah, this is what makes sense for me.

Yeah. And at any point also, we don't expect you to just have this stuff figured out. That's why we're here.

Ultimately, I still don't have it figured out, but for helping you, whoever's listening at some point, if you want to reach out, that's why we're here. Contact our office. Info's in the episode notes and whatnot. But otherwise, Rebecca, it was great talking with you.

Great talking with you, Dustin.

We'll talk to you all next week. Thanks so much.

You've been listening to B2B, Boots 2 Books. Thank you for joining us on this journey through the inspiring stories of veterans and military connected students. If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review and share it with your community. We'd love to hear from you, so connect with us on social media or take a listen to previous episodes at LCCConnect.com or find us on your favorite streaming platform. Remember, every story is a step forward and together we can build a bridge from Boots 2 Books. Until next time, stay strong and keep moving forward.