John Wyatt and Jonathan Ebsworth discuss our experiences of how technology provided a lifeline for many Church communities through lockdowns. We explore both the blessings that came from this, the risks that follow and some of the longer-term consequences as we look to a future that seems to require a hybrid on-line and embodied expression of 'Church'.

Some groups - like the housebound - found they had unexpected access to collective events as online provision grew in response to the pandemic-driven lockdowns. Youth groups; that might have been expected to find the switch online easiest of all, often struggled to maintain contact with all those who were participating before lockdown. For us, this suggests that while digital presence for Youth work can be helpful - it is hard for a fully online youth work to compete unconstrained access to brighter, more addictive expressions of technology engagement, like TikTok, Snapchat and Instagram.

We speculate that the hybrid expression of Church is here to stay - and consider a few of the challenges that follow. There is going to be a need for creativity, and we feel that our existing theology may need to be refined in the face of these emerging expressions of Church.

Come and join the conversation on TechHuman.org.

Welcome to the TechHuman podcast. This is a podcast that looks at matters of technology, human life and faith. Today we're going to be

We found some extraordinary blessing through the use of digital tools through the various lockdowns. But not all our experience has been positive. In this

some of the opportunities and challenges they might present. As always, we're looking to try and find the lessons we can learn to live well in a digitally

Thanks, Jonathan, it's good to be here. And, of course, the very fact we're able to do this podcast sitting separately in our two homes, miles

Yes, the church I attended was Emmaus Rd. in Guilford. We very quickly moved online. In fact, before lockdown hit, the church decided it

And the church, I think, outsourced a lot of the technical work to that business. And that that actually made for very good experience pretty much all

But it's possible to be cynical as a well, you're obviously go to the right kind of church. Tech wizards. It's not It's not something your average

No. I remember hearing the Bishop of Guilford bemoaning that that fact on on a prayer meeting call. That was one of the other things that

quickly, we had a core group of 30-40 people initially, which grew it, I think, at its highest to about 75 people who were meeting pretty much every day at

And actually, it was there that the Bishop of Guilford came and talked to us about some of the needs that he was seeing across the diocese. And over time

world.

It's really interesting how effective those prayer sessions have been. Because we had exactly the same experience. I go to a big central London

orientating way of starting the day. And there was a real sense of community.

Yes, I've found outside of that prayer meeting where where people have perhaps expressed interest in in something that was going on. We

without zoom and daily prayer meetings.

And it's interesting, isn't it? Because if you if you sort of think back even 20-30 years ago, the very concept of a zoom prayer meeting would have

extraordinary how it's a completely new experience has turned out to be spiritually very significant.

It has, it has. It's hard to fathom how this this came about. And it's one of the surprising blessings that has come through a terrible time

online experience?

Well, again, I think we've been very privileged with some very gifted people. One of the fascinating things to me is that some people who seem

videos that are part of the main service, the online service, we've also got the benefit of professional musicians employed by the church. And that means that

But I again, one thinks, you know, it's interesting, isn't it, it's sort of divides the churches into the haves and the have nots from a digital point of

It does and you know that there's a piece of it, which is financial; as this gear, the equipment, these skills are quite expensive, but

sort of stuff.

One of the interesting phenomenon, which has been described is the way that when the lockdowns started, some people found that their own local

established a kind of link in a church, which is hundreds of miles away, what happens is the lockdown comes to an end, and how do you how do you maintain that

Yeah, it's very hard. I mean, one of the habits we developed was, we would attend our own church online service in the morning, and then in

the view that says, Well, that was a, that was a moment in time, we were able to enjoy the worship and the prayer and the teaching from that community. But we

own community.

Yes. So one of the very positive things again, is that many people who found it impossible to attend the physical service have suddenly found they

consumers way, the barriers to entry are very, very low, aren't they and therefore anybody can they just have to click to come on. All you need. is an

I think it's been very interesting. And certainly there was a lot of excitement from church leaders in particular first, maybe six months of

housebound, those who find, for whatever reason, the church environment intimidating, can connect and engage that has to be a good thing. And certainly

It certainly does. And I think the question is the level of commitment, isn't it that and I think I am well aware of the fact that it's so

so this idea of time shifting of fitting it in with everything else. It really changes the nature of what a worship service ought to be, and turns it into a

with that comes a lot of other consumerist trappings. So do I like the worship group at this church worship? Do I prefer the worship from that

pastor? So this kind of pick and mix thing comes at very little commitment to a community around you.

And so I think that, you know, the challenge will be as as we move into this strange new era, particularly perhaps with smaller churches, do you

I suspect that the tiniest churches who live and breathe in committed community may be able to return to the committed community, probably

combined with in person just picking on that, we've found some challenges as a quite big church, taking responsibility for our own online streaming from a

the the ones that probably most at risk are the ones in the middle, who aren't particularly well endowed with with money aren't particularly well endowed with

Yes, I think I think you're right. And, and perhaps, you know, there will be a significant I think, I suspect quite a lot of churches of those in

about that. What's been your experiences as a father of have younger children,

for my two who are 11 and 13. The provision that they found through lockdown has largely worked well for them. The youth pastor at our

that. They have missed the in person getting together. And an article I read recently, I think there was a phrase, 'they missed the pizza and PlayStation

they've just had one zoom call too many, and they really don't want to engage that way. And I know of many who at least through lockdown have turned off

yes, I think it does, too. And I think, you know, we were just reflecting on the fact that the kind of exciting stimulating stuff that

more boring, and much less engaging, much less interesting, stimulating fun, than everything else I've got on my smartphone. So why would I want to spend

I think the danger through the that online existence is to try and be as vibrant and loud and immersive as Fortnight or attention grabbing

there is and I think, as you say, I think it's probably a mistake for the church to try and compete. And instead, it must be about relationships

meet people face to face, where you interact, where you do the kinds of things, you share meals, you you share, worship experiences. And it's and it's

That is one of the threads that youth leaders in particular are going to have to wrestle with.

I think it's always been a challenge for youth leaders to try and work out how they sustain sustained, something that feels culturally relevant, but doesn't

actually a transactional digital connection. And I think the church, one of the things that that the church has to do is to keep a sharp focus on on, as you

lockdown perhaps has begun to expose is at least for some youth work, the focus has shifted on to attendance and events, and perhaps has not got a sharper focus

podcast for youth, which has had some particularly good content on it, had we done it again, and known it was coming, I think we would have perhaps invested

the challenges that perhaps has been a little bit there for us.

Yes, I can see that. And, and certainly, you know, I was brought up in a very rigorous fundamentalist Christian home. But one of the excellent

time who, you know, we did things together. And I think, particularly, you know, for adolescence, you know, when you're 15, somebody who's 21 is like a god. And

One of the prayers that we pray most often for our children is that they will find good role models who they can look up to, and learn from,

it. Because I do think that's probably one of the most transformative things as children shift their focus from their parents in their family into the outside

Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. But you know, what this conversation is making me think is that I've got to believe that the meeting up

got to believe that the physical interaction is worth it. And, and, and just pay the price. And that this is something that as Christians, we so believe, in

That, I think, brings me to to another theme that has been quite important through lockdown. And you mentioned earlier that there was

that we were getting incredibly high numbers of people signing up for alpha alpha courses and actually attending. They were not geographically adjacent to

for some people. And is that something you found at all souls as well?

Yes, absolutely. And I think it's, again, it's one of the positive things. I mean, the figures of the the percentage of the population who have

isn't it? The one in the same time, Christianity is often derided as being outdated, homophobic, racist, patriarchal, all those kinds of things. And yet

Yes, you build on that and you look at something that caught the public imagination as part of a global wave, really, but quite early on in

and and those who perhaps never darkened a church door still found something in those words, which are all taken from Scripture. It did somehow catch

But it's real challenge isn't it? is is that that is a exceptionally low commitment, you know, to just click on Yes, I'm interested. Okay, next,

thinking outside the box, creating new models. Maybe for hybrid events, maybe for friendship, how, how can we encourage friendships? And I, I think, now is a

You're quite right. And I think there's a second layer of challenge within the Christian community, which is, in this experimentation, we

to explore some of these things, and perhaps challenge some ideas that have historically been held very strongly, in order to try and find the way forward.

experiment. And just because we haven't done things before, doesn't mean we couldn't do them. Now, it just means we need to think carefully and thoughtfully

if we go too far into this space.

Yes, that's right. And certainly, I'm struck by the fact that orthodox Trinitarian, Biblical Christianity has always put an enormous emphasis

extraordinary way Jesus's resurrection body was physical was some kind of physics two point naught. And I think that, you know, that has a new relevance

physical physicality and meeting face to face, why it's important.

To me, the consequence of that is that we have to look for hybrid expressions if we're going to involve digital technology in our faith

certain things are or aren't valid, but at the heart of the gospel as you said, we have an incarnate Jesus, who lived a perfect life. And had relationships with

No, it, it certainly isn't. And actually, you know, I find myself really conflicted on this. Because if you follow that thinking to its logical

You know, we don't even use smartphones we don't, we don't use the Wi-Fi. It is entirely, you know, it's almost a witness by by being a safe place from the

between those two visions of how Christianity is going to flourish in the future.

Yes, and maybe that that's partly the nature of this, of the fallen world we live in that the perfect expression, that it of embodied

us have people begin to listen to who Jesus is, who would otherwise not hear those messages, where it can keep us connected when we're locked down, then it

live.

Yes, I mean, I agree. And there is there is something about the digital is important, but it's second best it out and we mustn't let it

very important part of it as as, as embodied human beings, we need friction, we need resistance, we need struggle, in order to grow and to develop. And there's

Actually, at the heart of the technology, world that is driving this digital revolution, the value of trying to establish frictionless

we think that you need that friction to build strength and to make us fit. Whereas frictionless living will encourage a certain level of weakness and

cultural tensions that Christians and the church need to get very clear in their minds as they move forward, perhaps step by step in a world that is still

That's all for this episode. Thanks so much for joining us. There's a growing set of resources addressing the issues associated with Post lockdown church to

2021. And then Emma Fowle published an article on 25th of May called "The church is losing an entire generation; here's what you can do about it". Barna

on March 29 2021. There are some other papers and books that they've published and are available on their website. Peter Phillips has been very active in this

resource list addressing some of the issues associated with hybrid church on our website, www.TechHuman.org. You'll also find other articles short and long and a