Shownotes
In this final episode of Season 2, we explore the role of spirituality in the mid-life squeeze. While the first half of life often focuses on the outward journey, the second turns inward, shifting from certainty to a more generous unknowing. Join us as we delve into the three stages of faith and uncover how questioning our beliefs can pave the way for a richer inner life. Matt Bain and Daniel Sih wrap up the season with reflections on key lessons learned and a preview of what's to come.
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Spacemakers Priority Samurai eLearning
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Transcripts
[00:00:25] DANIEL: Are the very barriers that hinder maturity in our forties and fifties. Big thanks to our sponsor. Bulk Nutrients. Enjoy a 5% discount on protein powders and health supplements for orders over $45. At bulk nutrients.com au just enter the code space makers,
[:[00:00:48] DANIEL: Hi, welcome back to the Spacemakers podcast, where we help you make space for an intentional, meaningful life. We've been exploring a big idea this season that the habits and practices that set you up for [00:01:00] success in your twenties and thirties might need to be re imagined and even unlearned in your midlife squeeze to live a healthy life.
[:[00:01:28] DANIEL: Right at the beginning, we talked about how the transition from early adulthood to midlife and certainly beyond to the second mountain often requires a deep rethink about what it means to be a spiritual person, what it means to have an inner life versus just an outer life, how to go from doing to being, et cetera.
[:[00:01:50] MATT: That's right. Cause like we're interested in people as a totality, right? every single bit of a person, and that's going to include their inner slash spiritual life. Absolutely.
[:[00:02:09] DANIEL: We've loved your questions and just to hear stories about how this content has actually impacted your life. We'd love to ask for a favor.
[:[00:02:28] MATT: So what we'd really value is that if you think that you've got someone in your life and I'm going to, you know, take the big swing of guessing everyone has at least one person who's going to find at least one of these episodes relevant. Yeah. So if you can think of that person and share that the podcast
[:[00:02:42] DANIEL: Yeah. So either share a particular episode or maybe just have a conversation with them. Feel free to go to our YouTube channel, which is Spacemakers or my name with an underscore in the middle. And look, we hope that this has been a gift to you. It would certainly be a tremendous gift to us. We would love to be Australia's [00:03:00] fastest growing podcast to really impact people's lives.
[:[00:03:22] MATT: That's right, maybe like how you kind of approach it
[:[00:03:38] DANIEL: So by that, an out of the ordinary, maybe serendipitous experience that's hard to explain. And what was interesting is that 84 percent of participants said that yes, they had experienced a mystical moment, at least one in their life. Uh, but in that same study, 75 percent of those respondents said it was socially taboo to So in other words, most of us [00:04:00] have these spiritual unusual, mystical, wondrous experiences that we find it hard to contain or understand or describe, but in secular individualized culture, you know, in our Western culture, because of our worldview, it's taboo.
[:[00:04:19] MATT: Yeah. I can't quite recall like when that research was done, but my suspicion, my hunch would be that perhaps that's starting to shift as it's becoming a bit more kind of, I guess, socially acceptable or people have less anxiety about.
[:[00:04:34] DANIEL: which I think is great. You know, I think there's definitely a hunger and an openness for a broader, wider view of life that encompasses not just the physical, relational, emotional, but also encompasses the spiritual. So I agree with you on that.
[:[00:05:11] MATT: Yeah. Basically when life hammers you because eventually
[:[00:05:19] MATT: Okay. So Dan, let's feedback on the activity that we asked people to undertake last time around. And we
[:[00:05:27] MATT: Yeah. Again, perhaps our most counterintuitive episode thus far.
[:[00:05:51] MATT: However, it comes in in order to accumulate a thousand dollars. So you're trying to build that habit of saving, but. The end game is getting that 1, 000 and investing it in something like shares. Something [00:06:00] that's going to start to garner you a hold of compound interest sooner rather than later over the long term.
[:[00:06:24] DANIEL: Yeah. Because we often delay things for too long when they're actually in our reach right now. Yeah. If we changed our mindset and maybe loosened the purse a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So how'd you go? Ah, what did I do? Well, I think I mentioned this last week. But I already have a plan. So in two weeks, I take my son to Townsville with a great group called Fathering Adventures, and we have 10 days, just me and my middle son, which is great.
[:[00:07:14] DANIEL: So I think it's going to be a good experience. Yeah, that's cool. So that's expensive. My wife and I talked about it about six months ago and we said, actually, this is one of those formative experiences that we think will be worth investing in. And I hope it's, you know, a great experience. I'll certainly probably take my younger son and maybe even my neighbor's daughter who doesn't have a dad and we'll do that next year as well.
[:[00:07:49] MATT: like, eventually health's going to get in the way of being able to wear those bad boys properly.
[:[00:08:15] MATT: Cause again, they're just hitting that age where they're going to become probably too independent to want to tag along. And we may be just too uncooled. Before mentioned skinny jeans, we might just be too uncool for them to want to hang out with us. Yeah, okay. So we have to start doing some serious planning around when that's gonna happen likely over the next couple of years.
[:[00:08:46] DANIEL: All right. Let's move to the inner life.
[:[00:09:09] DANIEL: Just randomly met someone. And we ended up talking about. of all things, the inner life, faith, spirituality, which is not normally what I talk about at a basketball match. We had a really good conversation and there was this interesting point where he said, Oh, look, he, he finds it. He finds religion really perplexing or confusing because on the one hand, you know, there are people who are very generous and open hearted.
[:[00:10:00] DANIEL: You know, it's almost like the religion stops them learning and growing and seeing in a broader way and being more welcoming of people. And it was a good conversation, but I remember saying to him just a throwaway line. I said, well, I suppose it all depends on what stage of faith you're in. And he's like, what do you mean?
[:[00:10:35] DANIEL: So I thought it would be good to have a conversation around Fowler's Stages of Faith, what it means to have a first, second, and third experience of spirituality, and particularly because it fits the pattern we've been talking about, which is one where you have surety, you unlearn, and then you have And then there is a simplicity or surety on the other side of complexity.
[:[00:11:14] MATT: And I think it'd be fair to say that it was validated across a variety of different kinds of faiths. It also wasn't like one faith or mono faith specific.
[:[00:11:35] MATT: Yeah, and I think like now, too, would be like an important point to mention that in terms of this conversation, when we talk about spirituality, we don't want to equate that with institutionalized religion. Yeah. So I'd probably say spirituality involves whatever someone holds as being sacred in their life.
[:[00:12:14] MATT: So you hold that sacred. I'd say that is tied up with your spirituality and meaning. It could be people. So again, you might think, you know, I'm so invested in my kids. I actually think they are, you know, not that you normally say this at their birthday party or whatever, but they've actually like, they've got.
[:[00:12:28] DANIEL: And I orientate my worldview around them. Yeah, that's right. So I kind of bundle all that up. Mm-Hmm. . Or even, for example, broader causes, let's say environmentalism or activism where it holds the hallmarks of religion almost. Yes. And it gives you a greater purpose beyond yourself.
[:[00:12:54] MATT: Yeah, that's right. And later on, I think in the discussion, we'll also, you know, particularly then a bunch of stuff that we talk about, it'll be [00:13:00] relevant to people, even if they hold that there is nothing transcendent as well, because even that we're going to argue, I guess, is a kind of faith or belief.
[:[00:13:26] MATT: So there are three lenses that you can kind of see this faith journey through. Yep. Yep. So the first one, child like faith. like faith. And again, this could be someone who hasn't really, it doesn't even hold or adhere to a kind of institutional style religion. It's almost just like your basic worldview. So this basic worldview is often, and we're talking about like kids here.
[:[00:14:07] MATT: There is some benevolent figure in the sky perhaps, you know, or in heaven that I can petition and pray to, and they'll like generally kind of like do the right thing by me. This gives you, so it again, simplistic. Black and white provides like a pretty good container, if you like, that you can start to build like a life within and gives you some certainty and stability about the world as well.
[:[00:14:34] MATT: Life's like the kind of cut and dried black and white, simple and God is like, or whatever the divine is, it's just a bigger version. of a human. So that's a childlike faith. Yeah. Well, I'd say again, I'd go as far as simplistic.
[:[00:15:02] MATT: Yeah. So it's got to be a bit more robust and independent. And classically you're starting to run into some. I guess some speed humps to that simplistic notion of the world being that black and white. So you've encountered other people again, whose lived experience may be different from the good things happen to good people.
[:[00:15:37] DANIEL: Yeah.
[:[00:15:39] DANIEL: bad people? Maybe even just contradiction where things that you thought were so clear have alternative perspectives or ideas and therefore it starts to throw up your very simplistic faith because you don't actually have the capacity to hold complexity or wonder as part of your world view yet.
[:[00:16:11] MATT: But now my worldview is being really challenged. What do I do with that? So you may find yourself, again, this is where you think, well, you know what, if I belong to some kind of more institutional, traditional form of faith. I'm going to instead divert to basically having a very customized kind of individualized spirituality that's going to be removed from all those more traditional forms.
[:[00:16:50] DANIEL: Although kind of those big existential questions that make you start to question whether there's anything that's out there. Uh, the other questions are often, but if I'm really [00:17:00] honest, most of them are usually personal. Actually, I got hurt by someone in my community and now I find it hard to believe that anything is good about it or why is this bad stuff happening in the news or I prayed lots.
[:[00:17:34] MATT: Yeah. And that doesn't make it any less real. No, of course it makes it even more real. Yeah. And the other point I think alongside that that we'll probably circle back to later is that regardless of what faith you started off with, that pain It's going to be real. And again, for most of us, if you live long enough, in fact, I'd say all of us, it's inevitable.
[:[00:18:04] DANIEL: And that's where we move to that third stage, which really does give you the ability to hold light and dark. positive experiences and suffering into some holistic framework, but not in a simplistic, childish way that you see in the first stage.
[:[00:18:30] DANIEL: Yeah. So it's almost like you return to a lot of the beliefs or practices that you once had. They might even look the same on the outside. to an external observer, but the mode through which you approach it is much more generous. It's much more open. There's more mystery. There's more paradox and nuance.
[:[00:18:54] MATT: To add to that, I'd say humility as well. Humility.
[:[00:19:01] MATT: Sorry, I had to get that dad joke in. No, but it's like, it's, it's, it's again, like realizing perhaps the limits to our powers to some degree as well.
[:[00:19:10] DANIEL: You've lived
[:[00:19:11] DANIEL: enough to have the skills and knowledge to achieve something, but also enough to know that you're completely deluded and know nothing. And I think that's the case. You know, I, I, I pray because I know it works and I've seen the value in it and I know I'm probably deluded and there's lots of areas that I don't understand.
[:[00:20:00] DANIEL: It's a very ugly type of spirituality, because it hasn't been brave enough to go through the loss of faith in order to find true, mature faith. But at the same time, you can have someone who does exactly the same stuff and actually believes in the same tick box items in terms of their worldview. But there's a generous not knowing, a kindness and a wideness that is in that worldview.
[:[00:20:30] MATT: Yeah, so this is from a guy called Oliver Wendell Holmes, and it reads, For the simplicity on this side of complexity, I wouldn't give you a fig. But for the simplicity on the other side of complexity, for that I would give you anything I have.
[:[00:21:05] DANIEL: I think that describes it beautifully. You have to lose your faith, your spirituality, and your sense of purpose. Yeah. Which actually follows the whole process we've been talking about, which is about unlearning life in midlife. Yeah. In order to rediscover a better second season.
[:[00:21:29] MATT: So he's a former war correspondent. non fiction writer, war correspondent, and journalist. So he's seen people like literally die around him in combat and all that kind of stuff. So like a relatively hard guy as well. But in this interview, uh, I think it was in 2020, he recounted being out in the woods with his wife in his cabin in the middle of nowhere.
[:[00:22:01] MATT: And he remembers distinctly, and we recounted this in the interview, and he's written a book about it recently, In My Time Of Dying. He remembers having this distinct vision of seeing his deceased father. say to him, come with me, it's okay. Come with me. Come with me. Yeah. And afterwards he's like that, that messed him up.
[:[00:22:46] DANIEL: I love that idea because you've come to the conclusion that there is no God, there is no spirituality, there's no broad meaning in the world. All you see is what you have. You might be very sure of it, very confident and actually could work for you in the sense of it could [00:23:00] give you a lot of comfort and it could actually guide you to live a great life and to make some great decisions when you're young.
[:[00:23:29] DANIEL: And I actually think that's a very brave thing to do, to go from someone who was sure there was nothing.
[:[00:23:34] DANIEL: to at least being open handed to what it looks like to live a spiritual life. But I think that bravery is part of what we're talking about, no matter where you start. So Matt, we've collected a number of quotes from some of the spiritual authors we've read.
[:[00:23:54] MATT: Love to. So again, this is from his book, Falling Upwards. It is probably necessary to eliminate [00:24:00] most doubt when you were young. Doing so is a good survival technique. But such worldviews are not true, and they are not wisdom.
[:[00:24:27] DANIEL: Wow.
[:[00:24:29] DANIEL: I love it. Hey, why don't we take a moment of silence? We've talked about some But, have a moment, what, where are you at in your spiritual journey? Are you on the first stage? Are you on the second stage? Are you on the third stage? Are you at risk of getting stuck? And not being able to move forward, uh, are you brave enough to unlearn what you thought you knew in order to find a more generous form of unknowing?
[:[00:26:04] DANIEL: Hey, hopefully that's been a helpful pause, helpful time to reflect. I really appreciate you taking that space to think deeply. Let's talk about a few practical things that people can do if they feel stuck, or if they're in that place of unlearning in order to relearn the inner life. I remember reading an old study now, but it was a good study.
[:[00:26:50] DANIEL: And he tracked the journey of a lot of people and then did a PhD on the process. And he described that people go through three stages, [00:27:00] the black and white stage, the gray stage, which is often when they leave an institution and then. black and white on the other side of gray. But what's fascinating is he actually tracked why people left and what actually allowed them to move through that dark night.
[:[00:27:29] DANIEL: Why do we sit here every Sunday and listen to a man preach? You know, those kinds of big questions. But then the difference between those who move forwards and those who ended up with a kind of a privatised, individualised faith that didn't really mature. The one statistical factor was that people who move forwards into a mature, enlightened type faith had at least one friend that they connected with on a regular basis through that time of not knowing, where they could voice their doubts and actually get answers.
[:[00:28:21] DANIEL: It's a space where you can doubt and question and wrestle and yell and argue and not know and yet still love you and say, Hey, you're on the right track. Keep going. And that usually moves people forward. I think that's really helpful. It's very important. It's also important that if you have a friend who starts to doubt and wrestle, then actually be their friend and recognize that these questions are part of maturing in the journey of faith.
[:[00:29:04] MATT: Who you love.
[:[00:29:14] MATT: say?
[:[00:29:19] MATT: So, so, so one of the really, let's say, you know, there's that old, uh, quote that I think is attributed and probably, uh, rightly so, to Nietzsche about like, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
[:[00:29:45] DANIEL: Leaves you bitter, unforgiving, like in an unhelpful way. Yeah, that's right.
[:[00:30:02] MATT: And there seems to be like a growing body of research that says like there's obviously a heap of good ways to be able to cope and grow from suffering. But a kind of regular spirituality will give you a framework to be able to process that suffering and it will help you integrate it somehow into the rest of your life and make it cohere with the rest of your life and your life's big story.
[:[00:30:42] DANIEL: We are communal beings. Yeah, so I suppose all we're saying is when we look at these three stages, don't just think individual, but look at what it might look like to do that with others.
[:[00:31:02] MATT: Cause again, it's not without its risks, but if it goes well, then usually it's good for people's health. Cause usually there's some, um, some correlation there with say eating okay, not abusing drugs and alcohol. So it's good for you. biological, physical health. You're rubbing shoulders alongside other people, which you get.
[:[00:31:33] MATT: So immediately you've already got the baked in piece of being generative. which is also good for you because it gets it gets you out of your own head and it's got you effectively rubbing shoulders at the very least if not believing it yourself that you're living for a higher purpose. Nice. Yeah.
[:[00:31:51] DANIEL: David Brooks, Second Mountain. It's a fantastic book. I loved it. He says this, a commitment to faith is a commitment to stick with it through all the [00:32:00] various seasons of faith. And even those moments where faith is absent. To commit to faith is to commit to a long series of ups and downs, to intuitions, learning and forgetting.
[:[00:32:36] DANIEL: Yeah, although,
[:[00:32:55] MATT: You had to end with her, didn't you? I was ending
[:[00:32:58] MATT: well, sorry, but like, I just think like Mother [00:33:00] Teresa, who obviously a huge life of influence and service. and self sacrifice. Uh, a woman of devout faith, but then at the very end of her life, as we know, because of her published memoirs, she had dark nights of the soul.
[:[00:33:12] DANIEL: doubted her own faith. She doubted her own faith. And I think that's part of the journey. It's not once off. It's a cyclic thing and you do it in different areas. Yeah. That's a good point.
[:[00:33:55] DANIEL: So I suppose if you take anything out of this episode and maybe the season as a whole, [00:34:00] we would encourage you to have space, carve out some space to reflect on anything that you've heard about in this season. Maybe download the podcast season two toolkit@spacemakers.au slash s two for season two. But do something because it's what you do that counts and the space is needed to actually reflect on what comes next.
[:[00:34:33] MATT: Yeah, so two things. I think like one directly related to the podcast and one as a kind of indirect consequence.
[:[00:35:00] MATT: I think it has given me some impetus to actually not rely on spontaneity and not fall back on my more like youthful idealism about if you're a good friend, close friend, and then like, you're only able to like a phone call away. Like that's true, but that's not enough. So to kind of, um, have to reassess, I guess, just my, my diary, my calendar, and my practices of regularly building a stuff to see, to see mates.
[:[00:35:42] MATT: Somehow I have to, I don't know, it's like get the tattoo or the t shirt, but I need a constant reminder. of that. Yeah.
[:[00:36:02] DANIEL: You and I talked about blood flow, restricted training and cold showers and they're both things I do now on a regular basis. You know, I'm nearly a month of cold showers in a row, but look, the bigger overarching thing. Reflection, I think has been around friendship and relationships. Hmm. Uh, you know, I think in earlier, in an earlier episode, I talked about how I wasn't Okay.
[:[00:36:48] DANIEL: And so that's in my DNA and I naturally gravitate to wanting to contribute through what I do. But at the end of the day, I know, I know in my head, you know, that kind of prefrontal cortex part of myself that actually at the [00:37:00] end of my life, it's my, investment in my wife and my kids and my friends and community that will really make a difference.
[:[00:37:19] MATT: Yeah. And it's like, it's, it's that kind of, you know, investment for one of their term and activity involving your friends.
[:[00:37:38] DANIEL: So, um, let's finish by unraveling season three and the topic that we're going to explore.
[:[00:38:05] DANIEL: And so I watched the video and basically he said, well, you know, it's good to give advice to people about what to do. To have a great life. But what do you do if you're in your midlife and you've kind of stuffed up the first half? Mm. You know? And you know, I dunno, maybe you've had some broken relationships.
[:[00:38:36] MATT: stuck? Yeah, that's it. And I think it's a fair, a fair assumption to think that regardless of who you are, you're probably not firing on all cylinders, so to speak.
[:[00:39:02] MATT: So we want to bring in some external experts to talk to some of those particular areas of life and give some practical concrete advice as how people can get unstuck. Yeah.
[:[00:39:20] DANIEL: where we'd like to bring in some extra voices for next season. So if you're interested in continuing the journey with us from moving from the midlife reset to getting unstuck, well then I'd love you to tune in next season. Uh, but also email us. Please email us at podcast at spacemakers. au and let us know what you think about that topic.
[:[00:40:04] DANIEL: And look, to finish, we really want to thank our sponsors. They make this show possible. Uh, thank you so much to Bulk Nutrients, Banjo's Bakery Cafes, and St. Luke's. Uh, we're so grateful for your partnership. It absolutely allows us to get this on the air. Yeah. And all proud tasmanians.
[:[00:40:19] DANIEL: We really want to thank you, our listeners, because you make it possible. truly possible. Uh, you encourage us, you inspire us. We hope this has helped you with your own resets to make space for what truly matters. But until next time, season three, we'll be back. Make space. Thanks everyone. Thank you, Dan.
[:[00:40:42] DANIEL: Big thanks to our sponsor, Bulk Nutrients. Enjoy a 5 percent discount on protein powders and health supplements for orders over 45 at bulknutrients. com. au. Just enter the code Bulk Nutrients. Want
[:[00:41:06] VOICEOVER: It's our gift to you. Visit spacemakers. au forward slash s2 and make
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