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4: In conversation with Nas
Episode 424th February 2023 • United Colours • Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust
00:00:00 00:20:33

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In this episode we meet Nas, who works as a Staff Nurse at Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust. He is a Gay Pakistani Muslim and he has HIV. He uses the pronouns he/him

LINKS

You can find out more about HIV here

You can find out more about HIV and AIDS prevention on the following websites

You can find out more about working at Leeds Teaching Hospitals here

United Colours is an Under The Mast audio production. You can find out more about Under The Mast here

Transcripts

Caroline Verdon:

United Colours hosted by Caroline Verdon and Paul Carruthers

Caroline Verdon:

voices from the LGBT plus staff network at Leeds teaching hospitals NHS Trust.

Caroline Verdon:

Hello and welcome to episode four.

Caroline Verdon:

Thank you so much for joining us.

Caroline Verdon:

If you have missed any of our other episodes, don't panic.

Caroline Verdon:

You can go back and listen to them at any point.

Caroline Verdon:

Uh, but this week we speak to Nas . Now Nas is a staff nurse

Caroline Verdon:

at Leeds teaching hospital's NHS Trust, and he's also a gay man.

Paul Carruthers:

This episode resonates probably the most with me being a gay man.

Paul Carruthers:

Um, and NAZA's story I find really powerful.

Paul Carruthers:

And during our conversation, you know, I had to try and, and

Paul Carruthers:

hold back some emotions myself.

Paul Carruthers:

I think he's an incredible individual and, and I hope you

Paul Carruthers:

all enjoy listening to his story.

Nas:

I put like a, it's like an nap on when I come to work.

Nas:

Um, my uniform is like my armor in a way, and my sexuality and

Nas:

me is not really important.

Nas:

What is important in my patients, my patient experience and their

Nas:

journey in my private life.

Nas:

Yeah.

Nas:

I like to be identified as a gay man, but in my professional life I'm

Nas:

more kind of busy and about their needs and how can improve their

Nas:

journey and the experience more than.

Nas:

Uh, but if people do question, cause I do like to wear my, my rainbow badge.

Nas:

I like to wear my rainbow lanyard.

Nas:

You get people looking at you , and that, that's probably, I liked a

Nas:

bit, like a bit of attention, sequel,

Paul Carruthers:

But you know, we're onto, we're onto episode four and again.

Paul Carruthers:

Another person that is very much, it's not about me.

Paul Carruthers:

My sexuality isn't about me.

Paul Carruthers:

I come to work for my patients.

Nas:

Yeah, absolutely.

Nas:

Because coming to work, my focus about others mm-hmm.

Nas:

It's about what can we do for that per, for our patients.

Nas:

And that's where I come from really.

Nas:

Mm-hmm.

Caroline Verdon:

And I, I can completely understand why that is, because

Caroline Verdon:

you wouldn't enter that profession unless it was all about the patients.

Caroline Verdon:

Unless you had that kindness, that nurturing nature within yourselves.

Caroline Verdon:

But, . There's one thing about my identity and my sexuality.

Caroline Verdon:

It, it's not important in the workplace in that sense, but equally

Caroline Verdon:

it's quite a large part of us as individuals and and who we are.

Caroline Verdon:

And I've always been afforded the privilege of being able to

Caroline Verdon:

turn up to a workplace and just.

Caroline Verdon:

instantly just be able to be myself because I've never had, well, I would,

Caroline Verdon:

obviously, I've had to worry that people might be like, oh God, she's here again.

Caroline Verdon:

But I've never had to worry that people will be prejudiced towards

Caroline Verdon:

me or treat me any differently.

Caroline Verdon:

Um, and that isn't necessarily always the case.

Caroline Verdon:

, Nas: and I think with LT HT

Caroline Verdon:

within L T H T, personally myself, I feel safe in being me.

Caroline Verdon:

So therefore, I don't have to work as hard whilst in a very male istic

Caroline Verdon:

kind of vulnerable, uh, environment.

Caroline Verdon:

, I've always been on, tend to hooks.

Caroline Verdon:

So someone's gonna look at me one way and it just takes one

Caroline Verdon:

kind of glance and that's it.

Caroline Verdon:

you can't dis smart in a way cuz the, you had become a target.

Caroline Verdon:

Mm-hmm.

Caroline Verdon:

, I've had a heightened awareness in a, in certain environments.

Caroline Verdon:

Uh, but in this workplace I've been very lucky.

Caroline Verdon:

Everybody's embraced me as myself.

Caroline Verdon:

I didn't have to sound stupid to say that I'm gay.

Caroline Verdon:

I think for some people can work it out as by talking to me, you know?

Caroline Verdon:

But I tell that's Jess.

Caroline Verdon:

But in certain work environments I have been a fairly kind of aware of

Caroline Verdon:

how I approach and speak to people.

Caroline Verdon:

Here.

Caroline Verdon:

It's much more safer, I would say, and identity and sexuality at work, it's

Caroline Verdon:

never been important, but in different environment has been I, I have to be

Caroline Verdon:

more aware about myself and how I kind of speak to people, if that makes sense.

Paul Carruthers:

How draining that must be to be in a workplace where

Paul Carruthers:

you can't be yourself and for fear of.

Nas:

Even attack, I guess.

Nas:

Yes.

Nas:

And I try to do my best, but there's always looking for that chink in

Nas:

the armor where they can kind of

Caroline Verdon:

target you.

Caroline Verdon:

And you say, you know, you've always felt like you could be

Caroline Verdon:

yourself at lead teaching hospitals.

Caroline Verdon:

Do you think that's because.

Caroline Verdon:

Of the job role and the work, or do you think that's because of an

Caroline Verdon:

environment that's been cultivated?

Nas:

I think it's the environment.

Nas:

To be fair.

Nas:

I've been force with my colleagues.

Nas:

It has been relaxed.

Nas:

It's been easy.

Nas:

It's not been very difficult for me at all.

Nas:

If you ask anybody at work, I'm, I'm.

Nas:

Straightforward and honest.

Nas:

Mm-hmm.

Nas:

and whatever they want to ask.

Nas:

And I'm happy to educate and enlighten people's thoughts of

Nas:

about me and what I represent.

Nas:

Probably I'm, I'm some kind of person.

Nas:

Statisticians probably dream what I . Well, I represent Well, would you,

Paul Carruthers:

I mean, and it, you know, and it's great that you are happy to tell

Paul Carruthers:

your story and you hear on this podcast episode, that's what it's all about.

Paul Carruthers:

I wonder, you've sort of talked about, you know, Aesthetician's dream.

Paul Carruthers:

Um, I know because we, we've met before, but I mean, would you be able to talk a

Paul Carruthers:

little bit more about, I'll, I'll give

Nas:

you the, I'll give you the headings, . So, yeah.

Nas:

I, I'm gay, I am Pakistan, I'm Muslim, I'm hiv, and with all of

Nas:

that, makes who I am and I'm not afraid to tell that to anybody.

Nas:

My journey where I am today has not been quite easy, but with the tools

Nas:

I've been give, given as, as a child and use that, I, I, I've been very

Nas:

fortunate to have my faith and to have that my, my faith is personal to me.

Nas:

And my faith is only that I'm only answerable to my God.

Nas:

And that, uh, that has been.

Nas:

Without that, I don't think I would've got to where I am today.

Nas:

And that's been kind of my, the molecule little toolbox I would go into and

Nas:

say, right, what do I need today?

Nas:

My faith and my journey has been very important through that.

Caroline Verdon:

and you say it's, you know, it's, it's

Caroline Verdon:

not always been easy for you.

Caroline Verdon:

Did you realize you were gay at a young age?

Caroline Verdon:

Did you realize later?

Caroline Verdon:

Yeah, I

Nas:

always had a kind of an affection and, uh, I was drawn to

Nas:

men and that's who I, I, uh, kind of sexually was satisfied with.

Nas:

So then coming out was not the easiest of journeys because by coming out.

Nas:

Was seen as taboo because I'm from a very religious family and I was

Nas:

disowned, uh, from a very young age.

Nas:

I'm talking about.

Nas:

You know, 15, 16.

Nas:

So I had to bring myself up and I was, I've been homeless, I've been street

Nas:

homeless, and, and when I do talk about my journey about being homeless

Nas:

and having these experiences, wish I would never, uh, wish upon anyone.

Nas:

Um, some people I've gone on to probably drink and drugs, I haven't.

Nas:

I went into something completely different and again, I don't mind

Nas:

sharing, but it's part of me.

Nas:

I, I went into, um, let's say paid work.

Nas:

I think you can work that one out and, and, um, yeah, and, and that's

Nas:

only because I just to have a roof over my head to able to have a meal.

Nas:

And that's what I did to survive.

Nas:

And I would not be here today had I not.

Nas:

Met the people, which are my guardian angels today that have, can go

Nas:

to for more support and guidance.

Nas:

When I was diagnosed with hiv, to me it was a relief and, and I've seen it,

Nas:

sorry, as a, a long-term condition.

Nas:

I didn't see it as a, like your headstone is written then in about

Nas:

you gonna die in a few months.

Nas:

I says, okay, if I have it, let's move on.

Nas:

I can't really explain it.

Nas:

It.

Nas:

I had to just in, in inner drive.

Nas:

Mm-hmm.

Nas:

If I'm in a situation and just battle through it, I

Nas:

just never, I never look back.

Nas:

I just Okay.

Nas:

Moving forward a survivor,

Paul Carruthers:

I mean, that's all I, that's all I hear when you're

Paul Carruthers:

talking, you're a real survivor.

Paul Carruthers:

I mean, I think.

Paul Carruthers:

I'm driven, but the thought of 15 and being homeless and my son is nearly 12,

Paul Carruthers:

I just can't imagine how, how scary that must have been, um, just because of your

Nas:

sexuality.

Nas:

My family didn't mince any words.

Nas:

In about saying that's say even to the point I just send you to

Nas:

somewhere to be cleansed or there's a demonn inside here that's say,

Nas:

we need to get that out of here.

Nas:

Uh, there's something the society's corrupted.

Nas:

Yeah.

Nas:

Well, like it's me, . Yeah.

Nas:

That's the way.

Nas:

And my family couldn't really register.

Nas:

They couldn't really understand that.

Nas:

Did

Caroline Verdon:

you know that this, that this was how your family were

Caroline Verdon:

going to react before you told them?

Nas:

Yeah.

Nas:

Uh, it was, um, yeah, it was, um, yeah, it was a scary moment.

Caroline Verdon:

And when you say that your faith is very personal to you, um, I

Caroline Verdon:

don't know enough about the Muslim faith.

Caroline Verdon:

Um, What does your faith say about homosexuality?

Nas:

Uh, it's wrong that people of the same sex are not to lie in

Nas:

the same bed together, and that it's basically just haram is wrong.

Nas:

Um, that this mind is corrupted.

Nas:

and I don't believe that it's me.

Nas:

It's who I am to say God creates in his own image.

Nas:

And if that, that's I am, then I'm not gonna change that.

Nas:

I don't let those things get me down.

Nas:

They're not important to me.

Nas:

What is important is, Basically being good and able to help other people.

Nas:

I think that's where my kind of mindset goes really.

Nas:

How

Nas:

, Paul Carruthers: how did you go from

Nas:

staff nurse?

Nas:

I mean, that's, uh, ex, well actually that's my second, uh, degree.

Nas:

The first one's in council psychotherapy, so I might a very cool guy.

Nas:

Um, A, and it was through him and from there to get my ology degree, this is

Nas:

when I, um, got in my late teens, twenties and through his support and guidance.

Nas:

And then when I worked in drug and alcohol within mental health for,

Nas:

for a while, um, I then decided nurses got the cool jobs and, um,

Nas:

, and that's before I got diagnos.

Nas:

And got diagnosed in 2004, 26th of April, the date you never forget and . Um,

Nas:

and from that day, fourth, I thought, you know, it's not a death sentence,

Nas:

it's not an end of career, uh, moment.

Nas:

You can actually.

Nas:

Turn it around and bring it to a positive.

Nas:

I think that's what I've done with myself.

Nas:

How, how did not be for a and, and that's why I said the RD Angels in my life and

Nas:

had I not met these people and what we sat here talking to them and they kept

Nas:

me in the straight and narrow and able to go through my own counseling and my

Nas:

own kind of psychotherapy in terms of just like understanding me as a person.

Paul Carruthers:

So you talk about your guardian angels?

Paul Carruthers:

Yes.

Paul Carruthers:

And a.

Paul Carruthers:

Um, I'm interested to know, were they LGBT plus?

Nas:

Alan was Oh, those others one.

Nas:

Okay.

Nas:

Um, they were just people I just met through.

Nas:

walks of life through Alan's friends, through support groups, not

Nas:

necessarily sexuality, even, uh, being a Samaritan for a short while as well.

Nas:

I've done many things.

Nas:

I met wonderful people and, um, I've been very fortunate.

Nas:

Okay.

Nas:

I'm 90 to, from my family and to be true to myself.

Nas:

I've sacrificed my culture, I've sacrificed my family.

Nas:

Um, and I don't wanna say I'm alone or I'm on on my own.

Nas:

I do find it.

Nas:

Um, cause you like relationships and you, you try, you think, oh, this is going so

Nas:

well with someone Broing the HIV bomb.

Nas:

That's it.

Nas:

It's, it's a, it's a, it's a game changer and nobody wants to know you're a lepar.

Nas:

. Caroline Verdon: So about

Nas:

documentary for the N H S on H I V.

Nas:

Um, and I went into doing this documentary as the most ignorant person in the world.

Nas:

I'd seen extenders.

Nas:

Um, I knew what H I V was, um, and it was an absolute eye-opener.

Nas:

I went into it thinking HIV is a death sentence, and then I.

Nas:

, all of these 20 or 30 different people who completely proved that

Nas:

that was not the case in, in any way.

Nas:

And I remember one of them talking to me and saying,

Nas:

well, it's a bit like diabetes.

Nas:

You know, it's something that you have to manage, but you go on and

Nas:

have a a life just like everybody else because there are medications

Nas:

aren't there that you can take that.

Nas:

Lower the viral load.

Nas:

So you actually, you can't pass on h I v, you can't transmit it.

Nas:

I've been quite proud of that, Caroline, I've been quite proud.

Nas:

I am.

Nas:

Um, you equals you.

Nas:

I'm still on the same medication and, and I, I am undetectable

Nas:

and which is transmittable.

Caroline Verdon:

How does it work with patients?

Caroline Verdon:

Um, obviously it's not something that you would, I I I mean I

Caroline Verdon:

presume it's not something you'd never have to declare to , you

Nas:

know?

Nas:

Well, that's an interesting one.

Nas:

Cause they, they are precaution you need to take.

Nas:

So if you are taking blood, blood, uh, double glove, they are set of precautions.

Nas:

But I do tell my manager because I think they're managing me.

Nas:

I'm my sickness, so therefore I think it's important for them to know, and

Nas:

equally occupational health as well, they need to know about it as well.

Nas:

I think for me it's important for them to know because it then safeguards

Nas:

me and I know I'm being protected.

Nas:

I think that's what it's about.

Nas:

Should it be, and a different employer, I don't think they

Nas:

would be as, as warming into it.

Nas:

Well, we're lucky to

Paul Carruthers:

have you as a nurse.

Paul Carruthers:

So I've gone through, I mean, I'm sorry you've gone through some of the life

Paul Carruthers:

experiences that you've gone through, but I mean, you're an incredibly.

Paul Carruthers:

Positive person and talking about how it's made you who you are.

Paul Carruthers:

And I think that in turn has made you a fantastic nurse that probably has

Paul Carruthers:

great empathy to, to your patients.

Nas:

Thank, thank you.

Nas:

I think for me it was, um, I want to pass this kind of.

Nas:

positivity to others.

Nas:

Yeah.

Nas:

I think the hardest bit is accepting yourself first and that

Nas:

till you get across that hurdle.

Nas:

For years I thought it's dirty.

Nas:

I've got a dirty disease and it took me a long time.

Nas:

I struggle with it, but it's like a long-term condition now.

Nas:

It's part of me, it's my long-term condition.

Nas:

Do you know what?

Nas:

It's not the be on end all and that we need to speak up, especially.

Nas:

, the kind of, uh, minority, uh, I represent and I don't think that's well advertised

Nas:

or spoken much about in the community.

Nas:

Cause it's, do not talk about it.

Nas:

It does not happen.

Nas:

Well actually it does.

Nas:

Mm-hmm.

Nas:

, I think we need to have that more open and kind of, uh, that open candor really with

Nas:

people that say this is what it is and you need to be open and honest about it.

Nas:

I'm not saying that it's easy, it's difficult.

Nas:

You just gotta find that place or not find someone that you trust.

Nas:

And not many people will find that one person, and it's something they may

Nas:

want to keep with themselves to the rest of their life, and that's okay.

Nas:

Yet it can manifest in different ways.

Nas:

If you don't share it, yeah, you'll become male or things

Nas:

will happen un unintentionally.

Caroline Verdon:

What can workplaces do to.

Caroline Verdon:

Not just be supportive because sometimes that's, that's not enough to just support.

Caroline Verdon:

We were saying when we spoke to Ellie in our last episode and she was talking

Caroline Verdon:

about how, um, you have to not just have a policy in place but be overly welcoming

Caroline Verdon:

so people know from the get-go that this is a space that is going to accept you.

Caroline Verdon:

Um, what does that look like for you?

Nas:

I think if on an employer's perspective, a manager's perspective,

Nas:

I've not had that much of a difficulty.

Nas:

Di been interested.

Nas:

to ask me questions.

Nas:

I don't think they've had this kind of honesty before.

Nas:

And, and they listened.

Nas:

And I, and then when I spoke on a World AIDS Day, uh, with the

Nas:

I C U and they asthma, a similar question for their patients.

Nas:

What can they do more for their patients?

Nas:

And I'm says, this is about listening, going back to basics again.

Nas:

And it's about those people looking after people who have gender

Nas:

and identity or status as mine.

Nas:

Is those managers not to say, oh, I'll support when you need it.

Nas:

Necessarily open, open dialogue and say, right, this is what you need as a trust.

Nas:

What can we do to support your needs?

Nas:

I was talking about the other day, about the BME side of things, and I

Nas:

don't think that much is spoken about.

Nas:

You do have a BME network and which I'm part of again, that bm, E L G B T.

Nas:

Is there a need?

Nas:

I don't know.

Nas:

I don't know.

Nas:

The stats are, I don't, that's, uh, required.

Nas:

I don.

Nas:

That's

Caroline Verdon:

really interesting, like whether or not there's room for a,

Caroline Verdon:

a multi minority network or something.

Caroline Verdon:

Yeah.

Nas:

And because some, not in a bad way.

Nas:

Yes.

Nas:

It's nice to have a little lgbtq plus support group and a core group.

Nas:

That's fantastic.

Nas:

Learn ideas to see what other peoples are doing.

Nas:

But yet there are certain things where it's difficult to express unless

Nas:

somebody knows about it from your.

Nas:

Background, they may not able to get it.

Nas:

Cause when we, when our parents or our people that came from, from different

Nas:

countries, they brought with them their kind of values, their cultures, their

Nas:

beliefs to this country, which to the, the bigger population was very alien.

Nas:

And now try to explain to someone who's not from that

Nas:

background, it's very difficult.

Nas:

So, which

Paul Carruthers:

is why I get it.

Paul Carruthers:

Yeah.

Paul Carruthers:

I really do get it.

Paul Carruthers:

Absolutely.

Paul Carruthers:

I think it's important.

Paul Carruthers:

Culture is important and, and culture.

Paul Carruthers:

And as you've, you know, eloquently talked about tonight, you know,

Paul Carruthers:

the, the impact that's had on you because of your sexuality.

Paul Carruthers:

Mm-hmm.

Paul Carruthers:

is something that I.

Paul Carruthers:

wouldn't have had to have thought about certainly from being white.

Paul Carruthers:

Um, so I think it is important that there sometimes is the cross cross

Nas:

network.

Nas:

I think that's really important.

Nas:

That is just to even get it off the ground in terms of people say,

Nas:

you know, I am struggling with this identity that I may have.

Nas:

Am I thinking the right way?

Nas:

What's happening?

Nas:

And, and with Onika from a male perspective, And the expectations from a

Nas:

male of a, of, of a certain background.

Nas:

There's so much, much expectation that side to provide, to look

Nas:

after, to bring a family.

Nas:

And it's so difficult just to move away from that, that you are seeing,

Nas:

that you are abandoning any family.

Nas:

There's so much kind of that's captures in that kind of.

Nas:

Culture, faith, tradition.

Nas:

Mm-hmm.

Nas:

that people will struggle and I couldn't live up to it and I

Nas:

just was more true to myself.

Nas:

And you know what?

Nas:

That's all I could deal with was be honest to me.

Caroline Verdon:

Such a powerful story and so important to tell it

Caroline Verdon:

as well and, and to listen and.

Caroline Verdon:

He's a person who sees a hurdle and doesn't think, well,

Caroline Verdon:

that's the end of the road.

Caroline Verdon:

Instead just jumps it.

Caroline Verdon:

He's so inspirational and he's achieved so much in incredibly difficult

Caroline Verdon:

circumstances and it, it actually makes me really excited about,

Caroline Verdon:

oh, what's he gonna achieve next?

Caroline Verdon:

Yeah,

Paul Carruthers:

it's incredible.

Paul Carruthers:

I mean, when you start telling this story about becoming homeless, and I thinking to

Paul Carruthers:

myself, but you are here as a staff nurse, how did you get to the point of applying

Paul Carruthers:

for uni, getting through uni qualifying.

Paul Carruthers:

Getting to this point.

Paul Carruthers:

He's just, as you say, he's just overcome every hurdle and he's a real

Paul Carruthers:

inspiration to all communities that he talks about in this, in this episode.

Caroline Verdon:

Well, that is about all we have time for, not just in

Caroline Verdon:

today's episode, but for this series.

Caroline Verdon:

So we would like to say a huge thank you to our guests for sharing their lives with

Caroline Verdon:

us, uh, because I know that can't have been easy, but personally as well, I'm so

Caroline Verdon:

grateful because hearing these stories, It's really made me understand a lot more

Caroline Verdon:

and see how I can be a better support.

Caroline Verdon:

So I'm really grateful for that.

Caroline Verdon:

I have just learned so

Paul Carruthers:

much.

Paul Carruthers:

Yeah, me too.

Paul Carruthers:

I mean, you know, you started this as, as an ally.

Paul Carruthers:

I've started this as a somebody who's part of the L G B T community,

Paul Carruthers:

but I've learned so much and, and.

Paul Carruthers:

This series was supposed to be a conversation starter, and I really

Paul Carruthers:

do think that's what we've done.

Caroline Verdon:

Now, if anyone listening, working at leads teaching hospitals, NHS

Caroline Verdon:

Trust wanted to be a part of the staff network, how do they go about doing that?

Caroline Verdon:

Anyone that

Paul Carruthers:

wants to get involved will be very welcome to, um, all our

Paul Carruthers:

information is on the trust intranet pages and we've also got a Twitter

Paul Carruthers:

account, so you can find us on there, um, by search and lt, h t LGBT plus staff

Caroline Verdon:

Network.

Caroline Verdon:

And so that's it from us.

Caroline Verdon:

Thank you so much for listening.

Caroline Verdon:

Feel free to listen again, and if you do have any feedback, please do get in Touch.

Caroline Verdon:

United Colors hosted by Caroline Verden and Paul Carruthers.

Caroline Verdon:

United Colors is an audio production from Under The Mast

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More Episodes
4. 4: In conversation with Nas
00:20:33
3. 3: In conversation with Ellie
00:24:11
2. 2: In conversation with Bean
00:19:06
1. 1: In conversation with Be
00:21:06
trailer United Colours - The trailer
00:00:55