What happens when you were raised to stay quiet — and then find yourself in a boardroom that demands you speak up?

In this powerful follow-up conversation, Dr. Sohee Jun sits down again with Selena Yuan — one of the most downloaded guests in Asian, Like Me history — for a live Q&A that gets raw, real, and deeply practical.

Selena is a senior corporate executive and Chinese immigrant who has spent years unlearning the cultural conditioning that told her to defer, stay silent, and never challenge authority. In this episode, she shares the exact mindset shifts, communication strategies, and leadership frameworks that helped her go from invisible to unmissable — without losing herself in the process.

If you have ever held back in a meeting, swallowed feedback you should have given, or wondered how to shape the way others see you at work — this episode is for you.

What You'll Learn in This Episode:

• How to advocate for yourself in corporate spaces as an Asian woman
• Why cultural conditioning around silence and deference shows up at work — and how to rewire it
• Practical tools for communicating clearly, confidently, and being taken seriously
• How to shape your professional brand and control the narrative others have of you
• The role of emotional intelligence in navigating change, conflict, and difficult conversations
• Why strategic thinking is a skill you can practice — and how to signal it in the room
• The power of doing it afraid, and why courage isn't the absence of fear

Episode Highlights & Timestamps

[00:00] — Welcome & why Selena Yuan is back: the most-downloaded guest of 2025

[02:55] — How Selena defines hope — and why humanity's core values matter more than ever

[06:00] — Cultural tensions at work: deference, hierarchy, and the pressure to never push back

[08:50] — Conflict avoidance as a cultural inheritance — and what it costs us

[12:20] — Real-life example: teaching kids (and ourselves) to walk toward hard conversations

[15:28] — How to give feedback in corporate environments when you've been taught to stay quiet

[22:00] — Shaping perceptions: what people say about you when you're not in the room

[28:00] — How to ask smart questions that signal leadership and strategic thinking[34:25] — The language of strategy: how to infuse the right words to build your brand

[36:57] — Emotional intelligence unpacked: self-awareness, situational reading, and change

[43:59] — Selena's personal evolution with change — and why she now leads it

[50:26] — Learning to swim at 48: what fear, one small step, and doing it afraid taught her

[57:28] — What it means to be a modern Asian woman in 2026

Quotes From This Episode

"It's not about not being afraid. It's about being afraid — and trying anyway."

"We were taught obedience is a virtue. Unlearning that takes awareness, then practice, then time."

"Every moment is a chance to shape how you want to be seen."

"We have to do the inner work for outer success."

Reflection Questions for You

• What cultural tensions are holding you back at work — and in life?
• What mindset shift are you ready to make to navigate difficult challenges more skillfully?
• What inner work do you need to do for the outer success you want?
• What is your relationship to change — and is it working for you?

About Selena Yuan

Selena Yuan is a senior corporate executive, Chinese immigrant, and sought-after voice on leadership, communication, and organizational change. Her authenticity, real-world examples, and no-nonsense wisdom made her the most-downloaded guest on Asian, Like Me in 2025. This is her second conversation with Dr. Sohee Jun — and it goes even deeper.

About Dr. Sohee Jun

Dr. Sohee Jun is the founder of “asian, like me…” — a podcast and community for the modern Asian woman redefining what it means to thrive. A Korean immigrant, executive coach, author, and entrepreneur, Sohee has spent years helping Asian women navigate culture, career, and identity. She is also the founder of EVRten, a wellness brand for women who are ever curious and growth focused.

Resources & Links

• Listen to Selena’s previous episode on asian, like me…: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhoSo5exVPw
• Connect with Dr. Sohee to explore 1:1 coaching: www.soheejunphd.com
• Connect with Dr. Sohee to explore speaking at your company or event: https://soheejunphd.com/contact
• Explore Dr. Sohee’s bestselling books: https://soheejunphd.com/books
• Explore Dr. Sohee’s whole wellness products: www.evrten.com
• SUBSCRIBE to the podcast here and don’t miss a drop: https://soheejunphd.com/insights

Enjoyed This Episode?

• Share it with an Asian woman in your life who needs to hear this
• Leave a review — it helps the community grow
• Subscribe to Dr. Sohee Jun's newsletter at www.soheejunphd.com
• Follow “asian, like me…” on your favorite podcast platform

This is your space to feel seen, heard, and inspired. Let's grow together.

Keywords & Tags

Asian women in corporate America, Asian female leadership, workplace advocacy, being heard at work, professional Asian women podcast, cultural identity and career, emotional intelligence for leaders, strategic communication, conflict avoidance Asian culture, executive presence women of color, modern Asian woman, Dr. Sohee Jun, Selena Yuan, “asian, like me…” podcast, immigrant women leadership, corporate visibility, personal brand at work, change agility, doing it afraid, inner work outer success

And this second recording is fresh off of the live Q and A that we did together in which so many of you showed up to ask really vulnerable, challenging questions that are going on at the workplace and that ultimately helps you in all areas of life. So tune in and buckle up because this conversation has so much wisdom, and I'm excited to share it with you.

Welcome to Asian Like Me, Presented by me, Dr. Sohee Jun, the podcast for the modern Asian woman redefining what it means to thrive. I've spent years navigating the complexities of culture, family expectations, and career ambitions.

Here we have real unfiltered conversations with incredible women who are breaking barriers, charting their own paths, and owning their power. Together, we'll dive into the wins, the lessons, and the challenges we all face.

And yeah, we'll laugh, we'll share stories, and drop some actionable tips to help you crush it in your own way. This is your space to feel seen, heard, and inspired. Ready to rewrite the rules? Let's drop in.

So we just came off such a dynamic and really powerful first ever live Q and A with you. So let me just ask you, like, how are you feeling about having done that? Session one.

I want to say a big thank you, Sohee, for another opportunity to engage in such a meaningful way with folks online, real time, right? I feel really energized because as you can tell, I love talking about myself.

We love to hear it, sister.

I do love sharing these kind of perspectives. And also our audience also share their frustration or their struggles, their questions, their wisdom. And I learned from that, too.

I Think that's really wonderful. So that we, and thanks to you, frankly, we now start to have this kind of community of Asian like me. Right.

Then we can talk about these kind of things very candidly. Yeah. Thank you.

Oh, my God. You're welcome. So I just have to tell people we're going to have more.

And I'm so ready to dive into all of the things that were both brought up in the Q and A and things that you and I are just passionate about, like, let's talk about. So the first question I have for you is around hope. Somebody said hope is not a strategy. I kind of think it is.

So what are you hopeful about these days?

I'm very hopeful about humanity.

Ooh, tell me more.

That's a big topic, right?

We don't necessarily need to get into politics and all that, but I think nowadays more than ever, our basic fundamentals, values, I think, become even more important. How to be a decent human being, caring, respectful person, with integrity, with honesty. That we are also elevating others.

It's not only about self serving all of these things. I wonder if we may have taken that for granted a little bit in the past.

Nowadays, I really value those who show up with this, these kind of core values and then be very centered about these kind of things. Because I do think that, frankly, my personal perspectives, I think these are non negotiables. Right.

Treat each other with decency and respect, have that curiosity, be open minded and be honest and always tell the truth. Act in the best interest of the community, not just in yourself. These are things I think is really important.

So I'm hopeful and I still have faith in humanity, in the beauty, the beautiful side of people. And then I think, well, we should be able to come out of whatever we're dealing with right now and then come up stronger.

Yeah, I really loved what you said about the values and community around that too. I've been feeling that a lot lately in terms of how can we build more community around the values that are important to us.

And one of the questions that was asked in the Q and A is around corporate cultural values and how that feels so at odds with our heritage. You being a Chinese immigrant, you came in the late, like early 20s, is that correct?

Yeah. Early 20s, yes. Yeah. Not early 20s.

Yeah. And I Came in my youth when I was 6.

And I know I've had many conversations being a career Korean immigrant where my biggest challenge in the corporate world was really undoing the deference to elders and like, the respect part, that was anchored too much in the, oh, I can't say anything.

So in the rooms I was in, in the boardrooms, in any meeting, I had to literally force myself to say something that might go against the leadership of the room. Tell me about your experience with that or just cultural detentions.

Yeah, I certainly was brought up in that way too, as well. Right. Always respect the elderly. You should never talk back. They're always right. Even if they're wrong.

Even if they're wrong. I know you're like,.

Yeah, obedience, right. That's a virtue. That's the way you respect and care for your elderly because they raised you. All of these, yes. Resonated very well with me.

I also recognize in Asian culture. Right. Research shows that we are also a population tend to have a lot of respect for hierarchy.

I do find even, at least for me, I do find it even harder for me to give feedback to folks who have a bigger title or more quote, scenarity than I do. So I'm very much aware of that. I do think over time. Right. I didn't get here in one day.

Over time, like you said right at the beginning, one awareness of that. Second is practice. Right.

There are times I do also have to force myself say what I felt like, oh, that feels wrong culturally because that's not how I was taught or how my parents told me. Over time, I think the mindset shifted about, hey, this is not being disrespectful to the elderly.

Rather, this is coming to the table with perspectives or values or things like that. Right. So that took some practice over time.

Yeah. It is such a big mindset shift. One, I think that we often forget how much time and practice it takes.

And so we focus so much on the outcome of like, okay, well, how did you get from point A to point B? And the truth is it takes time and mindset and intention to undo some of the things that weren't serving us or aren't serving us.

So, as Selena, as you're an executive, how do you still come up with some of those tension points that are from your heritage? And how do you grapple with that in the corporate world?

Yeah. I'll give you an example. I didn't realize this until I really asked myself some hard questions. Right. Last time when we talk about that. Yeah.

I am Very conflict avoidance. You? Oh, very much so. I am very uncomfortable with conflict and passively, passive aggressively trying to avoid it.

Well, that's news to me, Selena.

I'll tell. I'll give you an example. And I actually regret what I did. There was one time I took my kids to. It's not necessarily.

It's not a private community, but it's a community that was like a. Near a church and they have gardens and it's meant for that community. Not necessarily say, hey, this is a public park. Everybody counts, right?

It's not that, but it is open to public. You can't go and do that. So anyway, I took my kids because it's really just five minutes walk from my home. Like, hey, let's go. And then take a look.

And the garden and all that. It was beautiful.

So then the kids were playing with the water and then somebody came and then kind of started yelling at them saying like, hey, you're not supposed to be here, you shouldn't play with the water and blah, blah, blah. The conflict avoided me. Say, okay, let's just go. I don't want to engage. He sounded crazy and I don't know what.

So I just for all the things right parents like a safety. And then do I need to cause a scene and do I even. Is it worthwhile the time? All the reasons I found myself not to engage. And then we left.

I knew that's going to come back and bite me later. And I did. How my kids said, like, okay, we. I was worried like, this is teaching my kids, like, okay, when conflict happens, you just run away.

And then they kind of feel like, okay, we. I'm glad we. We left. They said, right, Mommy? We. Maybe we shouldn't just talk to the person. And he's mean and all that, right?

So what I reflected with my children is like, hey, why do you think he said that? What's triggering that?

We actually went back to the park another time and then we found there is a sign that did say, you are not supposed to make big noises. You're not supposed to touch the water. So he's reinforcing the law. Not the law. They're done. I guess the rules. The rules, right? He's reinforceable.

Not in a very, I don't know, what's the word kind of a little bit scary and agitated way. So where I. I show well. So I honestly, I regret it. I'm like, why did you just run away, Selena? But I did have a follow up conversation with the kids.

I said, look, I don't think I handled that very well. As I would have liked.

Next time, if we do run into him again or into this situation, we should go talk to him, help him understand or get to understand where he comes from. Why can't we play with the water? What is the rule? Where is it? We didn't see that. Oh, how should we.

How can we be able to enjoy the community without disrupting. Right. Like, those kind of things. So that's an example of my passive aggressive behavior.

But I think what we learned together in that scenario is, hey, you can choose the easy way out, which is what I did. But then there are consequences of feeling like I will never have a chance to know where he comes from.

And then do we want to go back ever, or should we never go back? You know, those are the things that you don't have clarity when you avoid a conversation. Just get some clarity from it.

Well, I'll illuminate for you. Thank you for sharing that example. That there's courage in going back.

And in parallel, not only were you learning through it, Selena, but you were also leaving an imprint with your children, which I think is really beautiful and brave. I'm going to share an example that happened just last night around this.

So there was a conflict with one of my friends, and I saw her at lunch and I didn't realize until I saw her that I was upset with her about an incident. And the younger version of me, the less experienced version of me would have really just been like, it's okay, I'm just gonna swallow it, whatever.

I'm just gonna forget about it. And I think we do this oftentimes in the corporate setting too. Right.

In the work world, I'm just gonna for it's harmless or I will just push it down deep down. So I feel like it doesn't bother me.

And the version of me now that's gone through so much angst about pushing something down, where I spend so much extra energy thinking about it anyway, knows that it's better to walk through the discomfort and tell them how you feel in a respectful as way possible. So I think there's something to what you said about the time and place.

Maybe, maybe for you, in that example, it wasn't the time to just at that moment go, where's the sign? I don't see it, buddy. And perhaps going back to it was the better decision. And for me, I needed a few hours to feel, what am I upset about?

How can I convey this in a way that is respectful of my love for her?

As a friend and I called her and I think there is this thinking through that stuff that's important when you want to give difficult feedback and there is conflict.

And, and so I had my son with me in the car and I just had him, I just wanted him to be quiet so that he can hear an adult actually talking through conflict. And so I shared with her as kindly and as directly as I could. You know, I wasn't aware that I was upset until I saw you and here's why.

And what I would have loved was for X, Y and Z. So I was able to lay it out and she was like, I am so sorry. So the conversation ended well, as I had hoped. Sometimes it doesn't.

And that's some of the after effects that you decide to live with. Right.

And I said to my son, like, I wanted you to listen because this is what it looks like to actually advocate about the impact and talk through something. Because I want my kids to learn to directly talk to somebody that they are challenged by.

Not to avoid it, not to like push it down so that they're like, meh, you know, I'm just gonna mistrust my own judgment and like push it down. It's not important to me when really it is important.

You know, I wanted to pull the thread on that example because it was so real time for me and for you as well. So thank you for sharing that. It's conflict, it's a part of life.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that example. Sohi, I wanna build a little bit on that. Maybe we give folks a little bit an example.

Also in a corporate environment.

Yes.

There was a meeting I was in and then there's a group of pretty senior level leaders and we're talking about things. Right. And one of the SVP got really animated. Not because of what I said, rather just the concept and the topic.

There's a lot of passion, energy around it and tension, frankly, around it. And then so he just said, this is a mess. It was a mess before. It's not going to happen. It's not going to work this time.

It's going to, you guys are going to mess this up again and it's just not going to work. And all of these. Right. So I did follow up with him afterwards and then we had a very candid conversation about how he showed up in that meeting.

Right.

How did you start that conversation?

Yeah, great question. So I started with, let's pretend you are that person. Right. I'll just use the name.

Okay, Let me put on My Persona.

I know, right? Although you would. I can't imagine you. Although. So what I said. Well, it's actually he. Right. I did say.

I said, look, Sophie, I. I want to talk a little bit about how that meeting went. And from your perspective, how do you think how the meeting landed? And he said, how I think it's not working, blah, blah, blah, blah, all of that.

I understand you have some clear concerns about the approach that I suggested, and I appreciate those perspectives, which is why I wanted you to be in a meeting is to share your historical contacts, your perspective. And so to help us. Right. I said, the way you deliver that message, it did not land because we did it. Right. It did not land.

And I also worry a bit about what kind of brand that you are formulating when you use those language and when you show up that way. We didn't. What I was expecting from you not only is sharing any concerns, but also we talk about a solution to address those concerns.

Rather, it became a.

Frankly, the way you showed up, it feels very much that you were just venting about a problem without any solutions, especially in front of your peers. So that's one thing I said. The other, I know him a little bit. Is that I said, look, I'll say so hee. Right.

I know you're also very passionate about advocating for women, given that we have significantly fewer women in your organization. I will tell you, as a woman of color, I did not feel respected or valued in that meaning.

Oh, wow.

The way the message was came across from you. So a little bit, to my surprise. So he actually had tears in his eyes. Really? Yeah. I was a little surprised.

He said, I am so, so sorry about that because this is truly advocating for women, something I truly care a lot about. I can't believe I did that. I said, hey, I appreciate you made it easy for me to give this feedback to you.

I'm glad we can reach that understanding and then be very respectfully sitting across from each other and listening to each other's perspective. So moving forward, I want to make sure your opinion, your point of view is heard. Right. That's what you want too, and that's how.

So how can we best do that? We had a really good conversation from that. It goes back to.

I'm still not comfortable with conflict, but I kind of feel like these kind of experience and the practices and be courageous and bring it up like what you did with your friend. We are not going to get there in one day. It is a skill and a mindset. We have to keep Practicing, then we will become much better at it. Mm.

One of the things I. When I coach my clients around this is to have them get really clear on the intention.

What's the intention, and what's the desired outcome of the conversation.

Right.

And sometimes we're not gonna get that.

And so being okay with that, at least leading with intention, you may not get the outcome, but driving to that with as much clarity and kindness and directness as possible. I love that example you show. You did so many things. One, because I, of course, I'm an organizational psychologist.

I love.

I'm a coach. I have to tease this apart.

What you did so beautifully is you were able to, one, address your concerns of the impact of his behavior on you and do it in a way that. With the tone and language I'm assuming that you shared, which is very receivable. It was.

Didn't feel aggressive to me or like you were also elevating. And you ended with the how do we collaborate on this together?

And in between there, you made him feel seen in terms of just what he was trying to do or your interpretation of what he was trying to do in the meeting as well. There was a lot of nuanced kind of behavior in there that I wanted to call out. Anything else that you feel like you did in that conversation?

Yeah. I appreciate your reminding ourselves about the intention. Right.

I remember having that intention conversation with myself is like, okay, when are you gonna just let it go? Should you just let it go? No big deal. Whatever. I don't really know him that well, and then that is just the way he is.

I can find these reasons to not engage, and once I got clutches that, no, I do need to engage, I don't think he's fully aware of the impact it has on others and on me. Right. So that intention. I love you. Always want to be very intentional about it. I think that gave me clarity about.

This is not about me venting to him like, oh, that's not okay. Why did you do that? I don't deserve it. I don't. I don't come from that perspective.

Rather, I want to get to a shared understanding about what happened. What's the output of that and how can we move forward?

That clarity, Suki, I think, helped me to get me through the conversation to be prepared for whatever reaction he may have.

Yeah. It's what I call. I've coined this phrase. I'm sure it's not new. The inner work for outer work. Right. So we have to deal with the intention.

Checking the inner Work the centering ourselves before we do the outer work with that other person.

So I've had moments too, in situations at work where it's like I intended and led with something and then it just kind of got muddied or then I started to get escalated or elevated. And I've had moments where I had to go, okay, let me, let me stop. Let me take a moment and let me start over.

Right?

Because these things aren't always a beautiful dance, especially when it's tense and we are stressed, which most people are these days. And it's okay to pause in the moment of that conversation. Go, let me start over.

I feel like I'm not getting my point across or I'm not coming across the way I intend to.

Yeah, you triggered another thought. Steve, you don't mind?

No, I don't mind at all. Look at this beautiful build. This is why I love being in conversation with you.

I thought of another example because I am in hr, right? So I work with a lot of HR professionals. This is years ago. So the. I was working with an HR business partner. And then at that time, right.

Just not too long.

Recently, meaning at that time, recently there's a new CCWE leader just joined the company, which is someone she needs to support, like a chief finance officer. Right. A new CFO joined and she has been supporting GNA function.

And then now the new CFO came anyway, so we also rolled out a key people process and which I drove and owned.

I remember she keeps calling me asking lots of detailed questions like, what about this, what about that and what's the date of this and what happens there? Like, keep asking me to a point. I got very confused. You've been doing this, you know this, like, why are you still asking what do you want from me?

I remember literally I was shopping in Wahoo. I just got her call. I'm like, what does she want? I don't get it. How can I. I don't know what I can help her with. So I said, let me get back to you.

So I hung up. And then I was thinking, why is she asking these questions? And then it just dawned on me as I was thinking, oh, she has a new cfo.

She's actually going through a little bit of self doubt about how do I build relationship with this new person. I don't know.

Well, which led to all of these detailed questions is a manifestation of her anxiety wanting to know everything there is to know, be fully prepared. So when she goes to meet with the cfo, she has all the Answers. Right. So that's why it triggered it.

Once I, I figured that out, I was like, yes, I know the answer. So I called her back and then I said, I'll make up a name. I said, look, Mary, here's the answer to the question you asked me.

And Mary, I'll just step out of this for a minute. I just want to let you know, you are a fantastic, very capable, strong HRB team. Working with you in the past. I know this new CFO just joined.

You're going to be great. And then magically, she just never really needed to call me again after that. Other things. But it really, literally, she just. Thank you, Sunila.

Yeah, you're right. I got this. And then she said, thank you. And then she hung up. And then I never got like more questions on the same topic, like where she did before.

Yeah.

So that helped me realize. Oh, oh, okay. That's what actually behind the behavior. Talking about your point about the intention. Right.

Like the motivation, the desire or the anxiety, whatever is triggering on the surface, we have to slow down and think deeper about, like, what's underneath that I'm not seeing or the person is not seeing so we can help them to see.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. At capital Y, E S. What is underneath. What you did too, is you got curious. And that's one of the.

For me, a personal core value is if we can slow down and stay curious, it allows you to ask those questions that you did beautifully. It's like, why am I getting. Oh, right, let's open up the aperture and see that she has a new boss, which is a really stressful situation.

What a really wonderful way to take her perspective in and allow yourself to provide that to her. Which she probably wouldn't have said to you that she needed.

Right.

She was just kind of peppering things that show to you're like, this is not regular behavior. Behavior from you. Yeah, the curiosity piece is really key.

And the thread and the tie through for all of this is around emotional intelligence, which I'm sort of a geek around. I know you are very keen on this topic too.

Before we jump into emotional tolerances, I really want to pull the thread on a question that came up in the live Q and A around strategic presence.

And I know in all of my years coaching very capable women, a lot of the times they come presenting the quote unquote case of like, okay, I've been told I need more executive presence or strategic thinking.

And so I guess the question to you, I'm kind of building this as I Go is how did you build that capability as an executive and what would you advise someone who's been told they need to develop their strategic thinking?

Great question. Let me give you some thoughts.

Yeah, I think one of the things maybe we can push through from the live conversation, it's a bit tactical, but I think it's a very effective strategy for many of us to adopt. One of the common pitfall I do see is once you are good at something, right, People will come to you for the same thing that you are good at, right?

So let's say I am a fantastic project manager, right? I manage the timeline, I get things done, all of that. Guess what? Everybody will keep coming to me asking me to project manage.

So there's pros and cons with that.

So what I will advise for everyone is when you show up, especially at high stake critical meetings with cross functional stakeholders, the kind of question you ask needs to be very, very intentional. Right?

So like what we shared at the webinar we just did is if guess you have, let's say you have finance and then commercial team and medical fair, you have gna, you have the CFO or all of that.

If you keep asking the question that at a very lower altitude that is going to sometimes formulate a perception of you like okay, that's what Selena is good at is tactical execution and tactical details about timeline, about documents, where are we saving the documents and stuff like that, right? So you can formulate a reputation without even knowing that's how you have been showing up. I don't think that's wrong.

But for those of you who want to be perceived as strategic, I don't think that's the route to go. So the question is, okay, what should I do instead then I do have those questions. I need those answers in order to do my job. Go offline, right?

Talk to so. Right. Talk to sohe. Talk to Mary, find Justin, say hey, I have a couple deadline related question. Can you help me clarify that?

Right, so you can do that. But when in this kind of high stakes or cross functional meetings, think about what are some of the areas that people tend not to think about.

For example, right? For example, there was one time the company I worked for acquired another company.

And then of course there's eight or ten different human resource processes that we need to integrate. For the very first time, this is the very first time the PMO office is organized.

The key stakeholders from both HR teams hop on the call and also a couple of businesses, the finance guys. So there's like a 10 or 15. 15 Of us on the call. And then the project manager immediately dive into.

Here's the timeline, here's the process, here's who these women. I said, wait, hold on for a minute. Can we do a very brief introduction? Because this is the first time people are seeing each other on Zoom.

We don't even know who Mary is. I don't even know what role she played. Right. So that's an example of. I try to see, not just for the sake of whatever. Right.

It's more about, okay, first time, two team already sensitive who's being acquired by who. Let's build a little bit of internal connection by getting to know each other before we dive into specific project details. Right.

So that's an example of where are you adding value that others may have overlooked. Another example of area could also be oftentimes. Right. I will be curious. Whoever is listening to the podcast who doesn't have a silo issue.

Right. We're so siloed. That is like the number one thing.

Yes. Right. Where we're always trying to break the silo, but we still have silo. Right.

So if that's something you're passionate about, then, hey, think beyond your domain. Hey, I want to think about putting myself in Sylvie's shoes, put myself in Justin's shoes.

Think about Mary, what she cares about, and then say, hey, I want to make sure we're strategically aligned as we go into this project. What does alignment mean to everybody? What is really important for you when it comes to priorities? Are we clear and aligned on the work process?

And right. Like, these are the kind of questions you ask and others are, oh, gosh, I haven't even thought about that.

Yeah, well, that's where I think, not just Asian anyone. When you want to build a brand for strategic thinking, my suggestion is, hey, go beyond your role, go beyond your team, even go beyond your function.

Let's take a little break as I'm excited to share with you two things.

One, if you're a high performer, as I know you are, I invite you to check out ever 10e v r t E N. It's my whole wellness ecosystem that is all about helping women like you nourish your mind, nourish your body, and nourish your connection back to yourself.

Consider this an invitation to prioritize your nourishment in all the ways so that you can keep giving back and doing all of the important items on your list. I'm excited to share with you all the different wonderful products that we have to support your thriving at Everten.

And the second thing I'm really excited to share with you is that we are continuing to do more live events for Asian like me because it is in coming together that we grow as a community.

So I invite you to subscribe to my newsletter and you can head to my website at www.sohejunphd.com where we will share with you information about the August Asian Like Me dinner.

It's our first live gathering and it is a space where you will interact with previous guests that have been in conversation with me and we're going to learn and grow together. I'm so excited to bring this event to you and I cannot wait to see you there. One call out there is this is about building your brand.

You know, you want to shape what people say about you when you're not in the room. And it goes again back to intentionality and really being.

Being mindful of the questions when you're in a big forum, not even big stakes, but with people that you can shape their perception of you. And quite honestly, Selena, I used to bulk at the personal brand. What are you talking about? They know me.

I'm seen the way I want to be seen and no, not really. Not really. Every moment is a chance to shape how you want to be seen.

If you want to be seen as a leader or the best project manager, whatever that is, it's to be able to lift up and talk the way that you want to be seen. And I. And one of the things that you shared, really, I think is so golden, is to also say the words.

So if you've been told, hey, you need to be a strategic thinker, think of questions and use that word. Infuse that word, hey, from a strategic perspective, what are the implications of XYZ on the client or the timeline?

So being mindful of the words you use as well, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Sohee, you're reminding me. Yes, Right. Research has shown even just saying. Right.

Whispering that words, hey, in this meeting, I want to continue to bring the strategic perspective into our conversation. Even just saying that is priming people to say, oh, Serena is helping us do things strategically. Right? Yeah, exactly.

I'll give you another very quick example. When we think about strategic thinking, right. The altitude that you're flying in matters, right.

Like what I said, if you're always on the ground, you can potentially risk of having that brand is like a tactical leader. Right? So that's the altitude. The other piece I think I see strategic thinking for people is also think downstream or upstream. What I mean by that is.

Right. Recently I have talent acquisition and talent development folded both under.

So when I was looking to hire the new director for talent acquisition, we shared that context with all the candidates. Among all the candidates, only one person. One person not only heard that, but also started to wave that into his presentation.

He talked about, hey, here's the synergy I think we can leverage moving forward. Right. So he's already thinking about the current and the future. So that's another way.

From a timeline or spectrum perspective, you are also showing not only the altitude you fly in, but also the longer term. That Runway. The Runway, yeah, yeah.

These dimensions will give you the frameworks you can leverage to say, okay, here's how I want to demonstrate strategic thinking.

Yes. I am such a visual thinker. You know this about me, Selena.

And I was.

I love that altitude. 50,000Ft. Just lift, lift up, open up the aperture and upstream, downstream thinking. That's beautiful. Very impactful. Okay, so here's the.

The emotional intelligence piece. So you're gonna laugh because of course, you know this stuff around workshops to build emotional intelligence.

It was such a hot topic a few years ago, and it's an important mainstay of, you know, work life. We have to maintain emotional intelligence. I mean, let's start with even, like, how do you. How do you personally define it?

What's emotional intelligence mean to you?

Yeah, I'm sure there's the classic academic research definition about all the elements that goes into emotional intelligence, right?

There is. I want your definition.

My practical practitioner version. I do think there's a self awareness. Right. Which I frankly feel like that tend to be the weakest among the other dimensions is the self knowledge.

Truly understand your strengths. Truly understand what you want. Truly understand what. What are non negotiables for you? Right? Like that self awareness is a component of it.

I'm gonna challenge you. I'm gonna challenge you a little bit. So. Yeah. Well, I think the self awareness piece is not the missing link.

I actually think that more and more people have a level of self awareness, especially in the corporate sense, as they get coaches and feedback and 360s and all the things. More so now than ever.

What I will say is the weakest part of the emotional intelligence stuff, I think is the managing, building relationship with others piece. And I'm referring to Daniel Goldman's classic, like four pillar, right?

Self awareness, how you manage yourself, how you manage a relationship with others. I think that's where it gets clunky. So. Ooh, Selena, I just threw My own POV in there for you.

I love it. Yes, I can definitely see that the interpersonal relationship is another component of it. Yeah. I also think, see the situation.

This is probably also what you're alluding to is also the situational awareness. Right in the room. Am I completely oblivious of who my audience are?

Are people engaged with me or are they starting to take out the phone and look at their messages? Right. These are all really important component of the emotional intelligence.

Yeah. And I guess too to throw a wrench into how we emotionally self regulate. Let me ask a side question, which is why is it important?

To me, it's a little off. It's obvious because I've studied this stuff. But why is it important in the workplace for building emotional awareness, intelligence?

And then how is it complicated or added layer with this virtual world where we're managing a lot of dynamics and the pings and dings and the slacks and the team channels and all the things that come at us.

I know, right? My gosh, do we have enough pins already from all the different platforms?

So you always ask such a wonderful question that makes me think, I'll tell you a bit, tell our audience a little bit. A short story. It's a real one. It's just fascinating.

Showing that if you eat more citrus, like oranges and stuff, right. It can help to cure. I can't remember. Scurvy. Yeah, scurvy. Okay. So then there's complication and say, oh, yeah, of course. And then.

So the simple remedy is when you go on a boat and then sail for months on the ocean, a lot of the sailors die because of scurvy. So then they're saying, hey, just bring more orange or lemon juice with you.

Well, I also think about dissemination of information. It took a while for people to hear news and stories, right?

Yeah, yeah, let's take that into consideration. That's totally fair. But it literally took 48 years, 48 years later for that to actually start to be adopted.

And then of course, there's a variety of reasons to that. Right. It's not just the emotional intelligence, but I'll bring that to the table.

Is if you think about resistance to change, that's where the EQ comes in is are we aware right despite of the right to your point massive communication channel is limited. Many people don't even know about it. Right. All of that.

But it also has a lot to do with not having the right quote today we call it a change champion and then the adoption of it, the credibility from whoever says that confusion in the message. Right. At the same time people were advocating for other remedies and people said like which one should I use?

All of these led to unbelievably 48 years later imagine how many lives could have been saved. So yeah, I'll tell you I was just interviewed by our group of high potential leaders who are working on a capstone project and then something right.

Which is super exciting. I can't wait to see the presentation. So the last question they interviewed me they asked is is there anything that we didn't ask you Selena?

You think it's important for us to know? And I said I would encourage you guys. I always over indexing on the human side of things.

So when you are proposing a change or initiating a transformative change especially let's pay enough attention and slow down in the process to ensure we understand why are people not open to it or why are they open to it if they are not, what's getting in the way? What's the fear? What's the concern? Why is that all of these?

Well it seems like really when you spend that much time to talk about these believe or not, if we can pave a good foundation. Just like I love his brother's book about switch. Right. The elephant, the writer, the past.

If you haven't, I encourage you to read that book about change is if we can address the elephant which is the emotion, the feeling, the strong intense thing that we oftentimes experience when change happens. If we don't pay enough attention to that, that's where the emotional intelligence comes in. Guess what?

The writer always moves lose the rider will always lose to the elephant. Yeah.

That is such a poignant about change and resistance to change. And this is anecdotal but my belief in having lived in corporate for so long and coaching the woman is we're only ever in change. Right.

The outcome is blip. This beginning and the start of something are blips. And we're mostly mired and changed. So what's your relationship with that in any sense?

You can take it anywhere. Like and how has emotional intelligence served you in change.

I think my relationship with change continued to evolve. Right. Early days, like when you were a child, you were brought in the US early days for me is about the adventure. Right.

The change is going to bring something new and adventurous and exciting. And I do tend to get really excited about that. I think later stage.

Certainly there are changes that I've certainly had change that were not necessarily in my favor. I had a lot of reaction to that resentment. Right. Feeling that's not fair. Why is this happening to me? Why not others? Right.

All of these nowadays I do feel so he. I have a much more balanced to be when it comes to change. To a point who can raise your hand to say like change is not happening.

It is always, yeah, right. So then the choice is ours, though. I think the choice is ours is do you. You either get off, be left at the station.

I know they can't do this. When I was like raising my hands like, yes, sister, go right, exactly.

And frankly, I think with AI, the change is only going to be accelerated even more and also at a maybe even larger altitude or magnitude, I should say.

If that becomes the case, I want to be the person who have that agility and the muscle and the right mindset to embrace change and be part of it, if not leading it, versus being left at the station. Yeah.

One of the, I guess hurdles from my own journey with change is that in the beginning, in my formative years, change was not good. It wasn't a happy experience for me. Like I'm. We moved so much and I'm talking like every year as a child, which felt very erratic.

And so in my older years, I looked for safety, I looked for consistency, a way to feel safe within the corporate world especially. And you're right with AI and technology and all the things that are already being talked about, change is accelerating. Right.

They call it vuca, volatile, uncertain, all of you know, whatever that the rest of that phrase, it feels accelerated.

So one of the things that I've and I would love your to learn about your personal practices too is that our power in the chaos of all of the change in the swirl is our intentional ability to slow down.

That when the world and all of the changes at work are getting more rapid and feel more chaotic and dynamic, we have to come back to slowing down so that we can make really smart decisions, have really intentional conversations, show up in a way that is in advocacy for ourselves and our teams. So I've been talking about this a lot and trying to be in practice of slowing it the F down.

And. Yeah.

So what are your feeling thoughts around.

That in terms of slow down or.

Even a personal practice for you and managing through the volatility of all the changes?

I think what has been feeling a lot of energy for me, especially in the recent year or so, is I actually feel really proud that I'm pretty good at initiating change. I love that.

Were you not so good at it?

Is that why I didn't feel I was in a position to initiate the magnitude of the change? And now I actually am able to, which is very exciting. Right. So. And it just.

So then when I say initiating change, one what's exciting is I truly believe these are organizational labors that. Such as technology. Right. Such as key organizational capabilities, including decision making.

These are the kind of things that can make or break a company. So if we get it right, we can help the company either accelerate or at least be able to achieve its goals.

So that's very exciting to see how that unfolds. To be leading or initiating that kind of change without people even knowing you. Yeah, right.

Kind of stealth mode, different channels and different levels and all of these. And then you feel like you are the architect behind all of these.

You can see that the, the blueprint and then see how that actually start to come to life is very, very exciting.

And then I think the other piece is while we're doing that, we actually are able to activate these critical parts of the organization to lean into the change versus saying no to them.

And then I see some of the leaders really shine through that, become a change agent, become leveraging their skill and knowledge to help others as well. That in itself is also very exciting as a part of the change or result of the change.

That's how it differs from like 20 years ago, like change to Selena. I said, yay, I'm going to go to a new country. I'm going to enroll in the fantastic new class. I met some exciting, interesting new people.

Now, career wise, I guess, or professionally, that kind of changes. It's just really rewarding for me.

What a lovely evolution of your relationship with change. It feels much more like you are in flow with it versus resisting or just it feels more equilibrium. This is our second conversation.

I had to bring you back because I adore you. And the last one was, gosh, earlier last year and it dropped this year. What even year are we in?

What's changed, if anything, either in your journey as an executive or as a mom or. Fill in the blank.

Yeah. I can. I can share learning. Right. It's not necessarily new, but it reaffirming. I think I mentioned to you I am extremely afraid of water. Right?

Yes.

We talked about. And I don't know how to swim. It's not because I had any childhood trauma. I wasn't drowned or. It's just. It's just really scary to me. It's water.

It just feels like, oh, my God, I can't breathe, and then I can't see anything. It just feels really scary. Yeah. So speaking of change. Right.

And then I'm like, okay, no more excuses. You said, you're gonna do it. You're gonna do it. Okay. You're gonna do it. I'm not even joking. So there was one night I woke up and just.

I don't know why I thought about swimming. And then it was just panicking, almost like, oh, my God. So the good news is I have taken three swimming lessons now. Yay. Yay. Yeah.

And then the lesson learned from that is it's just amazing how our brain works. Sometimes it really helps us. Sometimes it really gets in the way. The buildup, the fear, the old excuses I can find.

I don't have time and too busy and all of that. Right. But once you actually put things in motion, I got into the water and I said, okay, if I can just put my head in the water.

Even just that, it's a huge win for me. Let me just see if I can do that. So one step I go back to right. Be present.

Let's not worry too much about, well, if I put the head in the water, what about breathing? Can I learn that? But that's also. No, no. One step at a time. Just commit to that one step. And once they do it. Oh, okay.

That wasn't hard or scary as I thought. I can't actually get my hand in the water. Let's do it again. All right. I did a second time. Okay. And then my first lot, I did my very first glide.

That was really scary. Oh, my God. I'm not even holding anything Right. So. So it's reaffirming.

And then I keep telling myself like, okay, all the things that we think about when big changes happen, the scary part, the worry, the anxiety, these are all new. I mean, these are all how we are built up, even from a revolutional perspective. Right.

That's because that's our body trying to protect ourselves from something potentially could be dangerous. Right.

But if we can see through some of that, not to be tricked by our own brain, the defense mechanism, and then just focus on one step, which is that one first little step I need to take and I can take, that will help us to start to get to where we need to be.

Yeah, that's golden. And I love when you texted me, you're like, I did it. I had my lesson.

I was so proud of you as we had talked about it for a while and it talk about reaffirming. Thank you for sharing that story. I'm so glad you're able to. What is it now? Can you dog paddle? Are you gliding?

You're not yet.

Well, you'll get there. You'll get there.

I do try the. I did try this. What is the motion? The freestyle. Yes. I did try freestyle without holding on to anything, all by myself with my head in the water. Okay.

That's a huge.

It's huge. Well, watch out, waters. You're going to be like the swimmer of my triathlon team. Because talk about me and goals.

It's like when I turn 55, I want to do a mini triathlon. So get your swimming gear together and get in the water.

I'll try to catch up. Okay, try to catch up. You have five years. Exactly.

What I think is really, really important to reiterate about that story that you shared, that's real skill of learning how to swim is that as adults we forget because we're so used to being an expert and affirmed and rewarded for being an expert and know things.

Right.

We have to show up and what's your point of view and how you know X, Y and Z. And we're rewarded for that.

And it's not a judgment, it's just to say that we forget that it's normal to feel fear, that it's normal to feel tension and like, oh my God, what am I doing? All of the bodily sensations we get when there is change, a big change that feels so risky and actually very physical, like swimming.

So what you said about small steps and being here in the moment I think is really, really worth repeating because what the brain does is it leaps forward.

And especially for the really, you know, executive thinking, highly accomplished woman like you and Just everyone that I get to coach, they're always 20 steps ahead. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, come back to now. What's that step you can take right now? The micro actions that I love to talk about all the time.

It's like, what's the micro action between now and tomorrow?

Yeah.

And the reason why I say that is we were just talking about this before we started recording Selena, of how my brain, the Gremlin, was acting up so much as I'm building this new company and I'll share it here, which is ever 10. And, you know, I've shared about it in my newsletter and that. And the question you asked is like, what's. So what is bringing up the fear?

And I'm like, because it's completely new and it's a space I'm not used to. It's consumer products. It's actually making products versus me being the product. And it's different world. And it's got me all crazed and scared.

And then I had to realize that my brain, okay, I was like, all right, brain, I know you're trying to keep me safe. Let me breathe. Slow it down. Acknowledge that I'm scared of shit. And what's that micro step? I literally.

I've been doing that this whole month, my friend.

I see. I will say also, silky. I learned a really important concept from your book, Aligned mindset. Right. No, I'm serious.

Thank you for mentioning my butt.

I do want to mention it because this is really important. I teach my children around it. Yes. Right. Do it afraid. Right? Do it afraid. And you are doing it afraid. Yes. Courage and bravery. So, yeah.

And that's what I thought. You know what? It's not about I'm not afraid. It's about I'm afraid. But I'm going to try it anyway.

Just like what you're doing, which is a different, Very different. Right. I can't even imagine the financial aspect, the business aspect, the resource aspect. Are people going to come and buy? Is it going to be right?

All of that?

Yes. Yes, I am doing it afraid. And my brilliant other friend Selena said that, quote, I have to give her the kudos for saying that.

Selena Rezvani, who has all of these brilliant books on quick confidence and how to really build confidence, she said, do it afraid. And I've adopted it and I say it every time I can. So thank you for reaffirming that. I'm doing it afraid.

And, you know, bolstered up by friends like you who are brilliant in their own right. So I have loved being in conversation with you, and this is a question I ask every person that's on with me.

And I want to know if it's shifted for you since the first time we talked on air and it's how do you define what it means to be a modern Asian female and has it shifted now versus the first conversation?

I see.

I think last time when you asked me the question, I mentioned that it's a 2.0 version, is who is sure of him or herself is anchored and then the have clarity about the identity. It's not about, I am Chinese or I'm American or I'm Korean, it doesn't matter. It's about I am this. Right. I don't think any of that has changed. So he.

If anything, if I think about what I have gone through and achieved this year, like what you said. Right. There are a lot of lessons learned that is reaffirming and then I want to continue to down that path. Right. Do it afraid.

Don't let fear get in the way, but have the courage to. To dive right into it and learn from it. How do we think about mistake or how do we think about, frankly, with failure? All of that.

I think the conviction is even stronger now that I have been in my role for more than a year and then said, oh, okay, I have. These are the things, right? Like initiating change. I. Yeah, just. I wouldn't say major shift or change.

Rather, I think it's reaffirming and revalidating some of the things we talked about. Yeah.

I love that you are definitely embodied in your 2.0 version and I have loved every minute of our conversation. Thank you for joining me again. It's been an honor.

Thank you. Thank you. I always get a lot of perspective from you.

I know you have been coaching a lot of leaders and I really do think coaching is extremely important because oftentimes we are not. Like you said, oftentimes we move so fast, things happen so fast.

We don't always intentionally slow down and save time to have that very important conversation with ourselves.

Yes. So they need to reach out to you and me.

Let's get coding on there and read your book and then listen to the podcast called Asian Like Me do all the things people. Yes, yes, Alina, I know that we'll.

Be talking again, so thank you. And until next time, be well.

Selena is someone I keep bringing back again and again to be in conversation because, as you know, she is so authentic and I just really admire and love how she shares real examples that have happened to her. And that resonate with me and I know with you as well.

And this episode and this conversation is one that I encourage you to come back to download it, save it.

Because we covered so much, there is so much wisdom in here that it's hard, quite honestly, to pick reflection questions from the many important topics that we meandered around. But I'm going to do my best to narrow it down to four reflection questions that I want you to think about for yourself and see what comes up.

And as always, I encourage you to if you're walking, you can think about this.

If you have a journal or paper and pen in hand, or if you want to light one of our Everton candles to signal that it's time to reflect, do what works for you and think through these questions. The first question is what are the cultural tensions that are holding you back at work and in life?

Early on, Selena and I talked about the ways that our cultural heritage and our upbringing is sometimes at odds with the culture in our workplaces. So what are, if there are any that you can identify or get curious about, what are the cultural tensions that hold you back?

And I do think that starting from a place of awareness is key. So no need to do more with that, just get curious about that.

The second reflection question is what mindset shift are you ready to embrace or ready to do to help you navigate difficult challenges or situations at work?

One of the key topics and areas that we unpacked is change agility, given everything that is coming at us at a pace that feels more and more accelerated. So get curious about your mindset around change and what mindset shift do you need to embrace to be more agile to change?

And then the third reflection question I have for you is what inner work do you need to do more of in the coming months for outer success?

If you recall, in this conversation with Selena, I talked about this mantra that I have that I use with my coaching clients which is we gotta do the inner work for outer success.

And so when you think about outer success and what that looks like for you, then what is the corollary or the inner work that you need to do more of to attain that outcome? Is it building more self awareness? Is it learning tools to have challenging conversations? What does the inner work look like for you?

And then the last reflection question I have for you is what is your relationship to change?

This is a topic that I'm very curious about and invite you into exploring for yourself because change is ever present and it's worth understanding your relationship to change? Do you bristle up against it? Do you embrace it? Or some variation thereof? So explore that.

And I do hope that you have really enjoyed this conversation with Selena and that there were many nuggets that you can take away with you. If you enjoyed this conversation, do me a favor. Please share it with your tribe and leave a review.

It's been my mission and my vision ever since starting and launching Asian Like Me to help other Asian women feel connected, feel seen, and to know that they have a space here for them. So let's grow together. Don't forget to share and rate until next time.