We're diving into the magical world of "Willow," and let me tell ya, it's a wild ride! This flick's got all the classic fantasy vibes—think epic quests, a reluctant hero, and some seriously questionable character choices. We’re breaking down how this movie kinda feels like a training wheels version of a fantasy epic, perfect for kids but maybe a bit too light for grown-ups. We’re also spilling some tea on the Anomaly Film Festival happening in November, where you can catch flicks that actually bring the drama. So grab your snacks, kick back, and let’s see if "Willow" holds up to the nostalgia or just flops like a bad spell!

Mentioned in this episode:

Joe Bean Roasters

Joe Bean Coffee - Coffee that lifts everyone. https://shop.joebeanroasters.com

The following footage is certified pg.

Pretty great.

It's Anomaly Presents with your friends, the Podcastronauts.

Sounds like a lot of supernatural baloney to me.

Supernatural, perhaps baloney, perhaps not.

Hey, welcome to another episode of Anomaly Presence with us Podcastronauts.

We are the present.

We are the present.

We are the past.

We are the future.

We are everything.

And you are with us tonight.

What an auspicious start for that.

That's a lot.

That's a lot.

That puts a lot on us.

That was deep.

So, yes, this is the Anomaly Presents podcast.

Podcast about the genre movies that inspired a genre film festival.

That is the Anomaly Film Festival here in beautiful historic Rochester, New York, at the beautiful historic little theater and the beautiful historic Dryden Theater in the beautiful historic month of November 5th through the 9th, if I recall correctly.

Is that right?

That sounds good.

One second.

Let me go to the website.

You got it.

I'll tell you what.

I'll tell you what.

This is a free podcast.

You can do some work.

Check it out.

Anomalyfilmfest.com.

it'll tell you the right dates, even if I didn't get it right.

God damn it.

Do your own research.

Oh, boy.

Do your research.

That has never gone wrong.

Recent history.

Doing your own research has not gone wrong once.

Jesus Christ.

So, yes, this is the Anomaly Presents podcast.

My name is Matt Austin.

Meg, just.

A little spoiler alert for Rebecca's feelings.

It's fine.

I have thoughts.

We have thoughts.

That's why we're here.

If we didn't have thoughts, this would be a very boring hour.

But we have thoughts.

So, yeah, this is the.

The Anomaly Presents Willow.

My name is Matt Austin.

Joining me as always, the podcastronauts, we've got Megan Murphy.

It's me and Kristen pelk Pacheco.

Hi, K.P.

Hey, everybody.

And we are here to talk about fantasy training wheels.

We are here to talk about Ron.

Ron Howard's and George Lucas's Opus Willow, which I can say with full honesty, I went to see this at the Stoneridge Theater here in Rochester.

When it came out, my dad took my brother and I, we went.

We saw the movie.

We went over to Toys R Us, we got toys.

When we left, we got home, we had our new little toys.

I think I got a Mad Martigan.

My brother got the titular action figure, Willow, just to specify.

And my mom asked me how the movie was and I said it was okay.

You got a toy out of it.

So that.

Yeah, that Might have taken it from a four to a six.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So this is.

This is an interesting movie because I feel like that's kind of everybody's general.

I don't want to speak for everyone, but I feel like that's the general feeling about it is that it's.

It's.

It's a perfectly cromulent movie.

But we'll get into it.

Partially.

The reason we were doing this is one, we wanted to do a fantasy movie to a toy.

Yes, yes.

Yep.

They had, surprisingly enough, a Lucas film joint had pretty dope toys that they.

They had perfectly.

It was a very toyetic film.

But you are on to like, let's.

So.

Yeah.

Could you build the castle?

What I'm trying to remember.

I don't.

I up the toys.

They had a couple places I should know too, right?

Oh, they had the.

Who's this?

The.

The guy with this.

The villain with the skull mask.

Yeah, that was cool.

Okay.

Yeah, I feel like.

Yeah, that guy too.

This is rough.

I'm like, yeah.

And.

And that one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm terrible with the names.

Not a single name other than Willow.

I'm glad they named a movie after him.

Yeah, exactly.

And I'll.

I'll be honest, the only reason I remember.

Well, I remember my Mad Martigan for two reasons.

One, because I had the toy.

And two, it's Val Kilmer and Val Kilmer.

Exactly.

Rest in peace.

One of the greatest film actors of our.

Our era.

Yeah.

He's effortless charisma.

As I'm going.

Yeah.

As I'm going to say, it feels fine.

Mad Martigan's very good in it.

I am definitely a sucker for the.

Oh, what a mess.

Oh, it turns out he really is talented.

I like that setup.

And I think Vale is very good like that.

That is a.

A skill of his.

Is like, oh, yeah, no, I know all this stuff.

I just have nothing to prove.

So I was like, oh, yeah, I'm all on board.

Plus, do you know Mad Martigan's one word?

Yeah.

Subtitles.

Yeah.

I was like, really?

And I just double checked a couple places just to make sure that everyone wasn't doing it wrong.

I'm like, no, Mad Martigan.

I assumed it was someone called him Mad and his name was Martigan.

No, his parents named him Mad Martin.

Or it could be his last name and his first name could be like Lance or something.

He just didn't want to go by it.

Kyle.

Kyle.

Mad Martin.

Kyle Mad Martigan.

Have a.

Did anyone in this movie have a.

No, they all have crazy names.

Yeah, they.

They did the classic fantasy thing, which again, I appreciate.

Right.

Yes.

Mad Marg and Battle Master Fighter and Bard of Eloquence.

Yes.

And I. I do feel like it had that, like the classic thing where, like, it has world building and part of the world building is these are names in this world.

I don't have a problem with it.

They.

They did that.

They put the effort in.

Like.

Yeah.

That's kind of how your classic high fantasy is.

Is names or names that sound almost like our names, but slightly different.

Like, she's not Sasha, she's Shorsha.

You know.

Almost Celtic, but not.

Yeah, I got no problem.

That's always fun to play around with.

Now do I think they nailed memorable names?

Not really.

Rule.

But the effort was there.

Unfortunate names.

I remember Laura, Dana.

And I feel bad because it sounds like a yogurt.

It does.

Yeah.

Who knew Willow had a last name?

Willow ofgood.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

See that.

That's where I'm like, okay, you're trying a little too hard.

I get it.

Of good.

I. I understand.

That's okay.

Movie.

You know, but again, here's the other thing.

And maybe we're talking a little bit about when you're talking about fear.

Fantasy movie training wheels.

Yeah.

I Does.

Does feel aimed a bit at like middle school.

Yeah.

So 100%.

I'll.

I watched this a couple weeks ago now, and my kid is very much the sword and sorcery dragons.

Like that.

That's his wheelhouse where.

Where I am a sci fi cyberpunk guy.

Like, he is all about sword and sorcery.

So we are trying to figure out 80s fantasy movies because, I mean, let's be honest, that that's their stock and trade.

Right.

Like, there are so many good 80s fantasy movies, and it kind of fell off in the last 40 years.

I hate saying that out loud.

Oh, God.

No, I don't.

I don't like those numbers.

35.

What was this?

88.

So we're coming up on 40.

20.

It's always 20 years ago.

That's the limit.

I'm willing.

It feels like it should be 20 in here.

It's 20.

Yeah.

No, no, that's.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My brother is like in his mid-40s and he was born in the 80s, so I'm like, oh, shit, stop, stop.

No, that doesn't even go back to fantasy land.

So.

Yeah.

Fantasy land.

Yeah.

So we were trying to think of fantasy movies that wouldn't be a total bummer because.

Right.

You've got never Ending story which will gut you.

Yeah.

You know, legend might be a little scary.

Yeah.

I was gonna say, like, it's not a bummer, but it's intense moments.

Yeah.

Labyrinth is, you know, kind of on the edge.

You could probably get away with a labyrinth or a dark crystal.

I'm sure those will be episodes coming soon.

Muppets the easy win.

Yeah.

But this one feels like it's like, straight over the plate.

It's just you took Star wars, you took space out of it and then slapped castles into it.

Yeah.

So it's like real easy entry to.

To your swords and sorcery.

I feel like.

Yeah, yeah, No, I. I think you're right.

It feels as.

As.

As a.

A TTRPG nerd.

I can bring in that, like.

Yeah, it feels like, you know, hey, here's our first DND campaign.

It's got all the classics.

Okay.

Do you want to be the.

The.

The magic wielder?

Do you want to be the fighter with the sword?

I guess.

Do you want to be the friend of the magic guy?

Do you want to be a brownie?

It falls apart a little, but it has that, like, we don't have a full cast.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's not a complete adventuring party, but that's okay.

But, like, it has that, like.

Oh, there's a.

A thing that has to be done, and you have to.

It has a reluctant hero.

And it's very understandable as a story for something like.

Oh, yeah, the classic fantasy where you have to defeat the evil to save the realm kind of situation, and you have to do it with friends.

Yeah.

And Ron Howard.

I was watching some, like, behind the scenes stuff, and he was saying.

Him and George kept saying, like, what would our kids like?

And I just googled it.

And Bryce Dallas Howard would have been like, eight.

So I was gonna say she and I are the same age.

Yeah, yeah.

Bryce.

Yeah.

Yeah, I.

It is.

And of course, maybe that is revisiting it, but that's a.

But even, like, when I was young, I don't remember going nuts for.

For it.

I remember, like, oh, yeah, I should.

You know, I. I think because I was, like, kind of into fantasy, and I think even then I was like, I should like, this more than I do.

Like, I was feeling guilty over it, but I'm, like, young, so I don't know how to deal with that.

I didn't watch it hard enough.

Finger on, like, what?

Yeah, what is it?

Make you completely enraptured.

Right?

That's it.

I felt like I should have this thing should have enraptured me.

I should have like, oh, my God.

And there's like, oh, oh, my God.

And there's.

The girl has a sword with red hair, and she's so cool.

Like, that should have been my jam.

I should have been all about that.

Yeah.

And it just, for whatever reason, hours.

And it feels a little.

It feels like it's two hours.

Like, I do feel like it's a little long for, like, a kids fantasy movie.

Right.

Like, I feel like Dora, I think.

Was like an hour and a half or 45 minutes.

You get in, you get out, and you're done.

Puzzles.

Yeah, you do have jungle puzzles.

Maybe it's the pacing or the characters.

Like, I think.

I think that's exactly what it is.

It's.

The pacing is kind of pokey, and it's trying to hit all the beats, and it just doesn't.

Yeah.

And.

And, like, I. I did a little bit of research, too, and I poked into it because I was like, some things just don't make sense.

So this was a significant.

At a certain point, because Willow had three acorns.

What happened to the third one?

Oh, yeah, it got cut out of the movie.

You know what.

Do you know what.

You know what saved us?

This being what you said.

88.

Yeah.

It would absolutely have been designed to be a trilogy later.

Yeah, absolutely.

So I'm saying George Lucas just sit there clicking, clacking all day and.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's a lot of ideas.

I think there's a lot of ideas here.

And I think.

And this might go to how we were talking about how Ron Howard is a very professional director.

He.

He's put together good films, even great films.

And yet, at least for me, there isn't a Ron Howard touch.

And I feel like, particularly in a fantasy film, a lot of fantasy is style.

Now, it doesn't mean over substance, but it is style.

You are building a world.

You are providing.

Everything has to, like, be on screen, whether it's pointed out or just in the background.

And I feel like, okay, again, another thing.

Ron's fine.

I feel like I don't.

I don't want to ding him, but I also feel that, like, character is not his strength.

And I feel like, for me, a fantasy film lives or dies on its characters.

You want to follow these characters.

You want to care about them and worry about them.

And these characters are fine.

They have, like.

I understand them.

I know who they're supposed to be, but I don't feel like I'm not With them.

I'm watching them, but I'm not like, with them.

Yeah.

And that's kind of the George Lucas way, though, because if you look at the people that directed the last two Star wars movies, they were just like journeyman directors.

I mean, Richard Marquan and Marcand or Irving Kirschner.

You know what I mean?

So I feel like that's just kind of his stock and trade.

But he didn't have the groundwork.

Right.

You know, again, you know what it is?

I think he's best at rogues, apparently.

Yeah.

That work the best.

It's Han Solo and it's Mad Martigan, and that's it.

Han Solo is.

Is just like, you know, Mad Mardigan is just maybe 2 degrees away from.

From Han Solo.

Yeah.

And you have to have somebody who, like, you think of what, like Carrie Fisher, who.

You have to have actors who bring life.

Right.

Yeah.

Maybe like architecture, he sets up and build, like, characterization in life and something into them, like, give them a spark.

Yeah, yeah.

I think Warwick Davis.

What was he?

He was, like, 17 at the time, so he was very, very young.

Yeah.

Charming in his own way, but.

Right.

It doesn't have, like, that little extra oomph.

And the actress.

It's hard to buy him as, like, a father and a husband when he's 17.

Yeah.

Because I like that.

Here's the thing.

I like that you have your main character as a husband, as a father.

Because, like, I, I.

Because, like, then you have stakes.

You have stakes.

You can't have that.

You know, you're not just, like this young person just starting out who hasn't learned stuff.

He has kids.

Like, I think I.

They.

Me.

That's one of the things that's missing for me is I should feel it more from Willow, where, like, hey, like, I'm not supposed to be out on the big adventure.

I need to go back and, like, work at home.

But he can't say no because of the stakes, which I like.

You need to take a character who.

Who wouldn't be the hero.

And they are the hero because they have to be.

That's fascinating.

But, yeah, you're right.

When you say he's 17, that is asking so much of someone who's not even 20.

You don't have the gravity yet.

Exactly.

Yeah.

You're just kind of pretending instead of.

Of really acting or pulling out any life experience.

Because your life experience was.

You were wicked, the Ewok in Return of the Jedi a year and a half ago.

Yes.

You know.

Yeah.

But.

Yeah, It's.

It's interesting.

And I think he's great.

And it's fascinating to watch his career arc from Willow to Leprechaun, because Leprechaun was only, what, five years later?

I think so.

He was 23.

You.

You can.

You can see him g. Having his confidence there, I think.

Like, yeah, yeah.

Like, as you go through.

We're talking about the.

The acting at Leprechaun, but for real, like, no matter what Leprechaun movie, you know, Warwick Davis is gonna be the best thing in it because he's 100% committed and you can see the talent there.

This is someone who now is like, oh, yeah, I know what I'm doing.

I know exactly.

I know the tone to hit.

I know how to say limericks and full Shakespearean, like, monologues and in space.

But I like, you brought that up because, like, yeah, it's.

He's 17.

He's not untalented.

He was just young.

And that's asking a lot.

That's.

Yeah.

It's so hard to pull from that.

Especially as your lead.

Like, you have to carry that.

And it needs to be offset maybe by other.

Right.

Like by a supporting cast that does that.

And you kind of have.

Without maybe having like, the full party to.

Yeah.

To weigh on, because his people just peace out.

I died at the moment.

Like, first they're like, cool, we found a criminal.

Goodbye.

Like, yeah.

He's like, go, are you sure?

Like, yeah, okay.

Goodbye.

Like, what?

Yeah, yeah.

No, I.

You know, it's weird.

Again, I.

Again, maybe I'm just being too much of a nerd, but I almost think it would have benefited from a classic party structure because then you get the character types.

You get the character types and they play off of each other and you learn about the characters instead of, like, Willow's friend.

He seems nice.

Mad Mardin's awesome.

And then, like, Sasha has, like, listen, I want to love her.

I'm supposed to love the tough ass babe.

And I just feel like there's nothing there.

You see?

It should be, like, amazing.

She's the daughter of the villain.

She's been raised as a warrior.

She looks great.

Fantastic.

I love the.

I love design, but there's, like, nothing there.

Not even, like.

Yeah.

And I'm like, okay, if we're gonna do the romance thing, that I need to know her too.

I need to figure out, like, why would she find this guy wandering into her tents?

Like, I get it.

It's Val Kilmer.

I understand.

But, like, on a meta textual thing, but here I need to know, like, tell me that she's like, yeah, she's, like.

Hasn't been able to have this.

Tell me that she wants to live a different life and her.

And her, like, that stuff, and I feel like it's not there.

Yeah, it's.

Yeah.

And I mean, it worked for Val Kilmer because he eventually married her.

Joanne Wally.

They were married for ages.

Oh, wow.

Wow.

So it's nuts.

So there was an actual attraction, and yet the film didn't capture it and.

You don't feel the chemistry.

That is bonkers to me.

That's wild.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They were together for, like, 20 years almost, I think.

Yeah.

They.

They were married for a while.

Not.

Not that I'm a Kilmer file, but I am.

Well, there's nothing wrong that.

I think it's.

All right, look, we gotta watch Tombstone and do an episode on it, okay?

Oh, God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

11 years, right now.

They got married in 88 when this came out, and divorced Hollywood six.

Right.

Amazing.

Yeah.

I mean, he was charming and he had his shirt off most of the time.

I get it.

Like, it's a basic, like, eyeball level on there.

I just need to feel it.

I need a little more.

You know, I just.

I need a little feeling involved.

But, yeah.

Yeah.

But, yeah, I think it's.

It is character.

It is, like.

Okay, so.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Go ahead, K.B.

no, go ahead.

Finish your thought, because we're talking about.

Okay, so let's talk about, like, the villain.

I should love, like, oh, good, a witch.

Yes.

She wants power.

I'm in.

I should be, like, always, like, wanting to go back.

What's she doing?

Oh, sacrifice a baby.

But, like, I feel like she.

Like the actress.

I'm forgetting her name is good in what she does.

Jean Marsh.

Yeah.

G. Marsh is great, but I feel like there's nothing there.

Like, she's doing what she can with a character that, like, I don't understand.

Like, give me something.

Give me something to root for or understand or go like.

Like, you know, I don't know.

I felt like it either wasn't wild enough, evil or understandable.

Bad choices, like, poor choices, you know?

Yeah.

She really.

A little bit more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's rare when you say she really should have kind of eaten more of the scenery, but, yeah, it should have been a bigger.

If you're gonna go that direction, just tamp it up.

Like.

Like.

No, there's no one dressing as the evil sorceress, you know, for drag brunch.

And that's sad.

Especially when you have a big old, like, hag versus hag fight at the end.

Oh.

Again, I'm down for.

I love the fact.

I love the fact that, like, the good sorceress, like, the good.

Like, she doesn't turn into a hot lady at any point.

Which it was.

Yeah.

Which is great.

So I love this.

Yeah.

Love this end when they're like, whap.

You know, like.

But I felt like there was nothing there because I should feel these, like.

Like, almost like, frail body, strong power.

Like, I should feel that, you know, And I just felt like, oh, man.

I wanted to be Merlin and mad Madam Mim kind of fight.

Yeah.

From Sword of Stone.

And it.

I feel it trying to be it.

And it's not.

No.

I mean, they should know each other.

Hate each other.

Like, you should feel, like, decades of disdain.

They should be grand dam, you know.

Yeah.

Like.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, they should have.

They each had the same husband at one point.

You at different.

I guess I'm making a death.

Is it like.

Like a Joan Crawford, Betty Davis kind of thing?

And my brain's thinking into the spider verse with Aunt May and.

Oh, my God, was that Lily Tomlin doing Aunt May?

Yeah.

That is one of the most perfect, like, performances of a line their entire history is in.

Like, was it.

Oh, it's live.

Like, the entire, like, why their entire lives together are that sentence.

And you know.

And we know she says only her friends call her Liv, so you know.

That there's so much of a history.

There of their beef or whatever went.

Right.

You don't have a full story, but you can paint a picture.

Yeah.

And that's like, C. D plot in that film, and it is more fleshed out.

Their plot is literally that interaction.

And you're like, yep, yep.

These bitches.

There's history.

See what other information we have.

No, I. I know I'm not the only one who's like, huh?

I mean, you don't hate this strongly if you didn't love at one point.

I mean, that.

That's the energy I kind of, like, would have loved.

Yeah.

And you're talking about fleshing it out.

I'm looking at, you know, the research I usually do for these things, which is looking at the Wikipedia.

So he'd been thinking of this actively pre Star Wars.

I wonder.

And I fleshed out enough.

I wonder.

Right.

Because, like, you know, we kind of know, like, some of his inspirations, like, Star wars.

Like there's hidden fortresses in there.

Like you can see.

I, I, that's got to be out there.

Like what, what film or films was he thinking of or did he not have a clear enough like template?

So I'm trying to think of something.

He handed this off.

The, the screenwriter is Robert Dolman.

I'll give you a couple of his credits W KRP in Cincinnati.

Oh yeah.

And then SCTV for five years.

Okay.

I mean, this is all stuff I like.

Just he came off of SCTV and.

Wrote Willow, wanted to flex the muscles there.

And immediately after Far and Away.

What that Is that the Tom Cruise, Nicole Kidman one?

Sure is.

And then the Banger Sisters with Goldie Hawn and Susan Sarandon.

This is fascinating to me.

How to eat fried Worms.

It's like more of like a kids kinda.

Okay.

Out of Brooklyn, which there is no link for.

I don't know if that ever existed or not.

And then came back for the Willow TV show.

So that, that is Bob Dolman's entire career.

Also married to Andrea Martin at one point.

Oh, oh, hey, that's he could do it.

And his sister was Martin Short's ex wife.

Oh, well, I mean, you know, like, they were like, what?

Near Toronto for a while.

Film that, you know, it got cold.

But there was a lot of.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Everyone married everyone at one point.

Exactly.

I, but fascinating that he's the guy.

Yeah, that's, you know what, it sounds like another professional.

And I feel like I'm using professional as like some sort of pejorative here.

But I feel like, yeah, I, you with fantasy in particular, I think you just really, you need the touch, you need to have that, that spark that makes it yours.

Like, like why, why does something like Labyrinth work?

Right.

It's got that, like, it feels like it's about to get darker than it does.

It has David Bowie, it has the like Henson Muppets, you know, like, and you understand, you're like, oh, I get it.

She's like, she doesn't want to babysit and she's been reading these like fantasy kind of.

I get it.

A lot of us have been understand, like, yeah, yeah, I can understand some decisions that you would make at this point.

There's the human element to it.

There's, there's Henson, which, there's that whole creative spark, regardless of, of what it was, whatever he was involved in for, for good or for bad?

For bad.

It was going to have that juice to it.

Right.

It would have its own uniqueness.

For Bowie.

Like, Bowie at that point.

I mean, that was right around, like, just after Thin White Duke.

And that's when he was doing like the.

The weird stuff with Mick Jagger and all that.

Right.

Like.

Like it was.

It was in like an out of the box hiring decision that, like, made it.

And I think maybe that's it.

Maybe Willow does everything good.

Like, like everything is done fine.

There's not a.

What?

There's not a wild pitch in there.

No, it is for me.

It is a reskin of Star wars to a fantasy.

Yeah.

Genre.

So it's.

And I mean, you can say that for really anything since Gilgamesh.

Right.

Like, that's just.

They're all.

But, yeah.

But it almost like doesn't get it.

Right.

Because I keep coming back to the party.

Right.

But I feel like you need, like, your.

Your side characters that you can get obsessed over.

Right.

You need the ones who like.

Yeah.

Then they each have their story that comes in and that's all meaning.

And like, I don't know.

I.

It's.

It's.

Yeah.

And Commander Dante in the chat, David wasn't even the first choice for Labyrinth.

That blows my mind.

I don't know how that could have even been.

Which it tells you when you get it right, when you look back and go, how could it have been anything else, Dante?

Do you know who it was?

Because I'm fascinated on that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just.

I don't know.

It's like all these choices.

Maybe here's the thing.

Okay, here's.

Here's my thing.

And I do not actually know the production history of Willow, but here's my theory.

Maybe everything just went too well.

Maybe think everything just went too smoothly.

You know how you need something.

Like you need.

You need Bruce to break down to get Jaws.

Yeah.

Because it's the first movie after.

Except for like the direct to TV or direct to video Ewok stuff that Lucas really did.

So it's like the first major motion picture for Lucas after Jedi.

Yeah.

It's Ron.

Ron Howard's first one after.

Oh, it was Michael Jackson.

Wild.

What?

That is Buck Wild.

Thank you, Dante.

That's nuts.

I can't even imagine that movie.

So he's.

So David Bowie then said, oh, I guess I do it, but you have to let me write the music.

They weren't like, please, please.

David writes the music.

He was like, I insist.

That's amazing.

This is right after Diamond Dogs cratered.

I think because he had the whole Diamond Dogs tour that he couldn't make the money For.

And that was a crazy thing.

Like, if you ever get the chance to read about that.

That's wild.

But yeah, so I, I think that's really what it is, is that it may have gone too well or it was just not to use professional as a pejorative again.

But you had the Lucas machine and the Spielberg machine because he had just done Cocoon.

So it's fight for anything at that point.

People just give them what they wanted.

And yeah, it's the blank slate theory.

Shout out to.

To Griffin Newman.

I will say something about this movie that was cool.

And I don't know if it's in the Wikipedia, but when it comes to the special effects, this is kind of like one of the ones where they created morphing, like when he does a little thing.

And so that's how we get like the technique and the visual effects involved in that is where we get the melting face in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade and eventually where we end up with Terminator like too.

So it was kind of at the forefront of.

Of that.

Oh, yeah.

Well, I, I would.

I. I don't know if I did before.

Like, it looks good.

Like.

Yeah, like, I think fantasy is a tough genre to nail visually because you have to create everything.

Everything has to be of the world you're creating.

And it is everything.

Like, looked good.

Now, did it have a distinct visual style?

No.

Which is maybe another ding is like, this world looks very fantasy pack that I downloaded.

But it looks.

It's a good version of that.

It's a very good version of that.

At the same time, I wonder if that's not just because that's what we know now as this is.

This is default fantasy.

You know what I mean?

Because we had that.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

Thanks, Peter Jackson.

I think that's really what it is, right.

Is that we've gone through 40 years of seeing these fantasy movies where they all kind of look vaguely the same.

If you look at the matte paintings, like, it looks like that it.

Yeah, you can look at the matte paintings of the backgrounds and you're like, this is the.

This is your typical castle.

This is your typical village.

Like, they're beautiful.

But yes, like, it's exactly for quite some time at this point.

So there's nothing spectacular or extra about it.

Right.

It definitely is, you know, a step and a half above Monty Python and the Holy Grail castles and stuff.

Like.

Yeah.

And I mean, those were real castles in the first one.

But anyway, yeah, they're smart.

They're like, oh, no, we filmed it where we live.

We got castles, and you can't throw.

The rock without hitting a castle.

Here, we'll just write joke, which is.

Maybe a reason why that works.

They're like, yeah.

No, actually, history happened here.

We're gonna go up and insult each other and do bad French accents.

Hell, yeah, you, history.

You had your chance.

It's our time now.

As an aside not to keep going back to my kid, I also showed him Monty Python and Holy Grail about a week after we watched Willow.

Yeah.

He has never been more angry than at the end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Oh.

Oh, my God.

Is this like, his first kind of meta fall apart?

Oh, that.

You know what?

It comes for us all.

It gets us all at once.

Yeah.

That's where it ends.

Yeah, bud.

Oh, no.

That's it.

Yeah.

The police come.

Oh, my God.

Oh, yeah.

Because at first he was like, why are the police there?

I was like, well, because they killed a lot of people.

Oh, my God.

Okay, also.

Also, Matt, what we need to do is.

I feel like we need to do an additional 15 minutes at the end of this.

And it's just like, what did you show your kid and how did he react?

Because I'm deeply invested.

I'm like, tell me about the things I liked as a kid.

What do you think, child?

Not that it matters to me, but it deeply matters to me.

I'll tell you.

Big Trouble in Little China is in the Hopper for very soon.

Okay, it's coming.

Oh, I. I want to know.

Action movie.

Kind of like, oh, he's gonna know Jack Burton and know that.

Like, hey, you know what?

Sometimes the protagonist isn't the hero, and that's okay.

You can follow the sidekick.

It's gonna blow his little mind.

It's gonna be so funny.

Ask him who the hero in the film is.

Okay, we watched it.

Who was the hero and who is the sidekick?

Whose story is it really?

I cannot wait.

You know, we've talked about how much I love that movie.

I can't wait to invest it on him.

But yeah.

Willow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Going back to films in the late 80s, here's the thing.

We could talk about Big Trouble because Big Trouble has such a visual.

Visual design of its own.

Yes.

Yeah.

It is so visually distinct, distinctive.

You know, it is a world that.

It's our world, but it's not.

It is a fantasy.

It is.

You know, things happen in that world that do not happen in this world, but the way it's designed and the way the story Is told you go with it because you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Magic.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Truck trucks and, and.

And weather gods and.

And everything in between.

And it's.

But like, John Carpenter's a visually and character, distinctive director.

Like, just think of anything Kurt Russell's done with him and you can think about, like, you can explain that character.

You know what.

That character.

I know.

Snake Plissken.

I know that guy totally.

I know what he'd do in almost every situation.

Right?

That's it.

Snake Plissken.

McCready.

Yeah.

Jack Burton.

Good old Jack Burton.

Our boy Jack.

John.

Nada.

Like, they're all like, real strong.

You know what they're going to do, kind of guys.

Yeah, yeah.

And this.

Yeah.

I don't know what most of these characters would.

Would do.

And it makes me sad.

It does.

I really, really, really wish that this had been the film that, like, filled my imagination when I was a kid.

There's.

I can see a version of it in my head where this would have been me for a couple years, would have been my personality.

Thank God the Internet didn't exist the way it does now.

Because I've been on forums.

I absolutely would have done the fanfic.

Yo, what tags?

What tags.

Like, it would have been like, all down.

I'll start my YouTube channel.

Or I talk about all the crack ships.

Like, that's what would have happened if it had been a slight.

Like, if it had worked the way like it.

I needed it to.

Yeah.

One click further in the other.

Like I say I was 88.

I was nine.

Is that right?

Not to put.

Yeah.

And I came home and it was the first movie where I was like, yeah, that was fine.

Yeah.

Sometimes you just see a movie and.

You leave and you're like, that.

That was a thing.

Yeah, that was.

That was the first one.

Because, like, I mean.

And every kid says the movies that were out when they were kids were a golden age.

But, like, I had seen all the Star wars movies in the theater.

Karate Kid, like, you know what I mean?

So, like, there's heavy hitters in there.

And then you get to Willow and you're like, we went to the movies today.

I got a toy.

Yeah, we went to Toys R Us afterward.

It was cool.

We got to ride in dad Chevette.

It was great.

But yeah, overall, it's.

It's one of the few movies where you're just like, yeah, that.

That is just kind of.

Yeah, I saw a movie today and I will not remember it, like, kind of where I will remember it as.

Like a footnote for Star wars because I was a big Star wars kid.

Like, I was excited because it was another George Lucas thing.

Thing and what's interested.

And Commander Dante says in our chat, like, you know, he wants a full Brownies movie or TV show there.

I think it's very fascinating that they did do a TV show because there is so much there that is very, very interesting to be explored.

And it.

I.

It is a shame that the TV show had a season.

It didn't even have a full season.

Yeah.

Because.

Because I was like, yeah, maybe, like, you know, it'll go.

Take that.

I.

Those ideas, those little things that make it impossible to just ignore it as a film.

You know, I can't just say, oh, it's a bad movie.

I just feel like the unfulfilled potential.

And it's a shame because I think maybe it would work better as a TV show because you can explore all the different things, you know.

Yeah.

And, well, you got more room to.

Breathe so you can have a cast.

Like a full.

Full party.

Yeah, I. I will watch it and I will report back.

Thank you.

See, I. I am very curious because.

Yeah, I think it allows for.

I think it's so interesting how fantasy doesn't have to have a larger cast, but it almost seems built for it in some way.

You know, like you're exploring the world through character.

Not always, but I feel like there is an amount of characters that are good in a fantasy or they just.

Need to be well rounded.

Yeah.

Like different enough or charming enough or whatever it is.

Yeah.

That just brings you in a lot of fantasies.

Exploration because you are introducing the.

Re.

The.

The viewers to the world as.

As your characters are.

You know, your classic, like, I'm.

I'm going out into the world.

It's funny that you say that, because I'm rereading a fantasy right now.

It's the Burning Kingdoms trilogy.

And the first book.

The way it's written is.

It's all.

It's.

You have so many.

It's not one person's point of view.

You are.

You have lots.

Every chapter is kind of.

You're switching between any number of people, and in some cases, it's just a guard that you see in that chapter gets murdered and then you carry on.

So it's kind of interesting that you're saying that because, like, it helps you build this world and all the different little pieces that are involved in it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Highly recommend that book.

Series.

I don't know how it ends, so I could be giving you a real stinker.

But the first book.

Will you roll the dice with me?

They're like 500 pages a book, so.

Oh.

Oh, damn.

I'll report back to you all when I get to the third one.

Sounds good.

We look forward to that.

About Christmas time.

Maybe a little earlier.

It'll be earlier.

Skp about it at the festival November 5th.

Oh, I'll be done.

Yeah.

Ready?

Ready.

Ella, eye water.

I'm.

I'm curious.

I'm looking at, like, you know, just fantasy movies.

I just type in fantasy movies because I think it is a tricky genre.

Oh, for sure.

I mean, I was just looking in, and one of the things they mentioned is that they didn't know if it would make any money because Krull had been out and Beastmaster had been out.

And, you know, it's not.

Okay.

Is.

Is Beastmaster a great film?

I can't tell you.

I'm having too much fun.

It's like, genuinely, I'll watch Beastmaster again, like, because it.

Because it has character.

Those ferrets, Kodo and Bodo, are full of character.

And they are ferrets.

Not people turned into ferrets.

Magical ferrets.

They're just ferrets.

Straight up ferrets.

I need to stop looking at lists that, like, rank things because, yeah, I was like, oh, fantasy movies.

And then I'm like, how dare Willow be above the fall never.

Oh.

Oh.

I don't know.

I think there are very, very good things where.

Where people rank things.

Like, Murphy's ranked the world.

That's a fantastic way that people are ranking things.

Podcast network.

It's really an elaborate con so me and my siblings can yell at each other for an hour.

It's all planned.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's really like, hey.

Because that's why I tell them it has to be the five best of a thing.

Can't be your favorite.

It has to be best objectively, because that will cause the most chaos.

Let's talk about subjective things and argue them like they're objective family.

It's fine.

Somebody put Barbie on a list.

Barbie is fantasy.

That's true.

Things where it's like, I just go.

And I watch it, and you don't.

Even think twice about it.

You know what we have to do?

Has.

Has your son seen Jumanji yet?

Oh, no, we haven't seen.

That would be interesting.

I need.

I want a front row seat.

No, no, that would.

You definitely have to report back on.

Yeah.

You know, What I'd be curious about.

And another, like, recent fantasy film that nailed it.

And I'm upset because I don't think we're getting a sequel.

The Dungeons and Dragons.

Honor among Thieves.

Nailed it.

Either.

Either if you have knowledge or if you don't.

Because I watched it with my parents.

It works either way.

I know what an owl bear is.

You don't have to know what an owl bear is.

And it's just because it gets the characters.

Like, it gets specifically why these characters work.

And I was like, oh, they each have like, their own little, like, stories.

I just.

Bradley Cooper's in it.

I made the best use of Bradley Cooper outside of like Rocket Raccoon that I can think in a perfect world.

That would have been Willow.

Like, that's the.

The vibe they needed to hit.

And it is the characters, like, what just.

Was it the paladin?

Just that.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's exactly what Paladins.

Yep.

Perfect.

Yes.

Yeah.

It literally felt like a game of DD I played.

Yes.

Like, it.

It just.

It felt.

Feels like comfortable but also removed from anything.

It is just a good story with fun character.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Having a good time.

A villain who's fun.

Yeah.

Well, you both have the pure evil villain and the like, anything for money, dumbass.

And I love both of those.

I.

And then the fights used powers and fights that felt like.

It felt like a lived in.

Like, oh, this is how a system would work.

Like this.

Your magic users and your melee and your ranged in a way that was just visually interesting to watch.

Oh, and of course, the bit with like talking to the.

The dead body and he's like, oh, my God.

You completely understand how it works.

And it's very funny.

The game I've been a part of.

Yeah, like, shut up.

We gotta do math.

The DM is listening.

And they're gonna take it as their actual.

Because it's funny to take it as actual.

And of course, anything with Jonathan.

Oh, yes.

Like, maybe the perfect joke.

You're like, who's Jaran?

Why does he care?

So holy.

But like, that's the joy watch.

That is rewatch.

I. I was so impressed that they were able to pull that off.

I've seen the other dungeon and dragon film.

It's interesting.

It's one of those ones you watch and go, why are all these decisions made?

There we go.

Yeah, it's a real thumbs down, but like a I'll order a pizza and discuss it with friends kind of movie experience, isn't it?

Oh, my.

Is it?

I'm Pretty sure it's.

You know what?

It's.

It is a miracle that honor among thieves exists.

Because that thing.

Oh, we've got.

And Richard O' Brien's in it.

1983.

Oh, no, that was Dungeon Siege.

That's.

Because of the vibe.

Yes.

The guy with the blue lips.

Yes, yes.

Jeremy Irons is having fun in it.

Jeremy Irons knows the assignment.

Everybody else seems to be from some, like, 90s, like, party at your parents house movie.

Like, oh, man, my parents are out of town.

Let's have a party.

But it's a fantasy film.

That's right.

It's Marlon Wayans.

Justin Whelan, who you would know as Jimmy Olsen from Lois and Clark.

Yeah.

Yep.

Or teenage Andy from Child's Play 3.

Oh, I remember him from Serial Mom.

Oh, yeah, I just rewatched it.

It was Scotty.

Okay.

Yes, yes, yes.

Hey, shout out to you, mom.

Another episode we did.

What a masterpiece.

I rewatched that right before Mother's Day.

Just gotta whisper pussy Willow.

Out of control.

Out of control.

I watched it recently with my sweetheart, and every time she was like, why is she making all of these bad decisions?

I'm like, she doesn't care if she gets caught.

She's just here to murder and love her family.

That's the entire point.

This is who she is.

Yeah.

Masterpiece of cinema.

So good.

The Sam Waters did it.

Holy crap.

Okay, so we're talking about Will, man.

We keep getting distracted.

Sorry.

That should tell you.

We've kind of.

I think we've probably reached our limit.

Of actually talking about the limit of.

Willow, which is fine because that's.

That's Willow.

Like, it is a perfectly fun sit back on a Saturday afternoon and fold laundry movie.

Like, it's not.

You don't have to pay attention to it every second.

It's not doing what you think it's doing.

And, yeah, it's partially because it's doing what you think it's doing because you've seen it kind of before a couple different times.

So you just know.

You know you're never gonna know where that third acorn went because that got cut from the movie.

Matt Martigan's Calling.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mad Marigan's calling the baby Sticks for reasons nobody understands.

Because that got cut from the movie.

You know what?

I bought it because, look, it's Mad Martigan.

It's Vale.

He made it up on that.

Yeah, he's like, I'm calling this baby Sticks.

Like, all right, buddy.

Yeah.

It's got real thin arms like Sticks.

That was never in the movie because the movie was apparently three hours long until they cut it.

Imagine.

Yeah, I couldn't.

It's too much.

But KP, to your point, totally could have been two 90 minute movies.

Yeah.

If it.

If it were, maybe if it were today, it would be.

I don't know.

Yeah, it would have been Willow colon.

The Daikini baby and Willow colon.

Hag fight.

Yeah.

Willow colon for good.

Not Hag fight.

Here's the thing.

If it was Willow Hag fight, I'd watch that.

Listen, I'm all here for, like, the old lady representation and not just, you know, it's.

Yeah.

Kind of instead of one evil witch, which is, you know, pretty standard affair.

Listen, you know, older we get, the more history we have and the more issues I have with certain people and time to think about it.

Okay.