Content warning: this episode contains discussions of depression and suicidal ideation. Please take care when listening. The Trans Lifeline and 988 Lifeline are available if you need someone to talk to.

Chloe Corcoran joins host Emily Hessney Lynch to talk about the it's a lot-ness (and the hope and joy!) that's part of coming out, transitioning, and navigating daily life as a trans woman. We talk about her earliest memories of knowing she's a girl, how her competitive streak and sense of humor have carried her through her transition and hard times, and how living as her authentic self made her want to live.

In the second half of the episode, we explore how you really need to just trust trans people, the importance of mutual aid and how far $20 can go, pervasive loneliness, and awesome trans musicians.

Links:

1. To book Chloe as a speaker or find more of her work, check out her website.
2. Follow Chloe on Instagram.
3. Emily's website.
4. Emily's Instagram.
5. Want to support organizations helping trans folks? Check out: the Trans Wellness Center in LA, Rochester LGBTQ+ Together in Rochester, the Transgender Law Center, and find more awesome organizations in all 50 states here.
6. She's Not There by Jennifer Finney Boylan

Mentioned in this episode:

Common Thread

Check out Common Thread on Lunchador! https://feeds.captivate.fm/common-threads-hardcore/

Getting Real with Bossy: For Women Who Own Business

Check out Getting Real with Bossy: For Women Who Own Business on Lunchador! https://feeds.captivate.fm/gettingrealwithbossy/

Joe Bean Coffee - Coffee that Lifts Everyone

Use promo code Lunchador for 15% off your order! https://shop.joebeanroasters.com

The director of the center finally said, "yes, you are trans." And my immediate reaction was, "oh, man, how do I unknow this?" Like, how do we put that away? Because I need to not know this anymore.

Gotta close Pandora's box.

Yes. And apparently you can't do that!

Shit!

That's what I said!

Hello and welcome to It's A Lot, a podcast about things that are a lot. On this show, we have honest conversations about the highs and lows of social media, parenthood, and much more.

When it comes to complex topics, online discourse can lack nuance and empathy. That's why we're leaning into deep conversations, making space for conflicting, messy feelings, and keeping it real about how we feel.

We could all use a little more of that sometimes. I'm your host, Emily Hessney Lynch, and today I'm excited to be chatting with Chloe Corcoran.

Chloe is a fundraising and engagement professional and an advocate for the trans community. She's currently pursuing a PhD in higher education leadership, where her work focuses on equity and inclusion. She's also the first out trans woman to be named a 40 under 40 award winner in her hometown of Rochester, and she serves on multiple nonprofit boards, has spoken at many community events, and enjoys photography and petting dogs in her free time. If you enjoy our conversation today, you can follow Chloe on Instagram and I will link that in the show notes.

I'm really looking forward to talking today. Welcome to the show, Chloe!

Thanks for having me. And thanks for letting me pet your dogs earlier!

Always a highlight. Let's just dive in with what's been a lot lately. I know everyone is finding life to be a lot these days. What's a lot for you?

I'm like, how long am I allowed to exhale on air and still have it be okay? I mean, honestly, the past year to 18 months has been a lot. Trying to keep up with new legislation locally, nationally, passports, etc. It seems like something new every day.

I know right now there are votes happening about healthcare for trans people in the US either blocking it completely and jailing doctors who help people under the age of 18, or removing it from Medicaid. And it's this balance of how do I stay informed, to stay as safe as possible, to make the best decisions that I can, and also help those around me, and also how do I keep myself feeling any sense of positivity, too? So I intentionally go about trying to do that.

Is there anything you've found that helps you kind of balance the two? That's so hard.

Not so much balance. But I will find moments where I'm like, wow, as you might say, that's a lot. Okay, I'm going to go outside.

And fortunately for me, living in Southern California right now, I'm able to get outside. But even when I'm home in New York, I joke about how it's too cold all the time. And, well, that's not a joke, it is! But it's still very pretty. And I like getting outside. So photography's been really helpful. I started that when I was first going through a really deep depression.

And I'm not, I don't know, shutter speeds or any of those types of things, so I have to look for good angles. And that forced me to, A, leave my apartment, but B, also search out beauty in the world that I wasn't even sure I wanted to admit existed.

That's a really good way to approach things. And I'm sure it helps shift your perspective in other ways, too.

For sure. And just reminding myself, like, it's not all bad. We get this concentrated firehose of badness aimed at us through certain media channels all the time.

But then you step outside and most people are cool or most people don't care, and then maybe the sun's shining, you see a cool bird, and you're alright for a little bit.

That is so true. I know there's such a narrative of "just put your phone down, go out in the world." But it is pretty true that, like you said, a cool bird or some sunshine does really help.

It's a narrative for a reason, for sure.

I want to kind of go back in time to the beginning of your journey and figuring out your trans identity. So could you share a little bit about, like, how old you were when you started to realize that you might not be the gender that everyone else thought you were?

Yeah. So for me, my first memory of life is praying to God that I would wake up as a girl. And I think I was 3 years old at the time. And that's not the case for everybody. A lot of people figure it out at different times in their life, but I always knew that about myself.

And shortly after that, I kind of realized that that wasn't going to be okay in the world that I was living in.

Were there any people you confided in about it when you were really little? Or was it just so clear that you couldn't say anything? You just shut it down?

It was so clear. I just shut it down. We spent a lot of time in, well, not a lot of time in church, but I went to Catholic school and all of that while growing up. And you kind of take in those messages.

Oh, I bet. That had to be hard to hear all the time.

It is. And you just assume that the people around you want the best for you, and I honestly think that they do. But you also think that they know what's best for you, and those aren't the same thing.

That's very true. I'm curious. So I know you didn't transition until adulthood. How old were you at transition?

Just under the gun at 34, about 10 days before my birthday.

Wow. So 30+ years.

Yeah, that was...

That's a long time.

It was a really long time. And I tried. I tried just about everything. Faith, therapy, medications. I mean, just out-dude-ing it, you know, I was a bouncer. I played football. You know, even all through college. I had planned to coach college football as my career, and it obviously didn't go quite that way.

Were there parts of, like, old Chloe that are the Chloe now? Like, what parts of your personality came through with you on the other side of transition?

I really think most of my personality came with me. I think it stayed the same, except now I was expressing it in new ways. I've always tried to have a sense of humor about life. I've always been a bit of a deep thinker, but I was just under this cavern of depression and anger and sadness, and I didn't want anybody to know who I really was. And I figure if I start opening up, some of the. The real me is going to slip out.

And I already know that that's not okay in this world is what I had told myself. That's what I had internalized. So I just. I just wrapped it up real tight.

Were there any people that you were able to confide in?

Eventually, yeah. I was able to tell some friends. And, you know, it's tough because they don't really know what to do. And that's not their, their, I don't want to say fault, but that's kind of to be expected a lot of times. I'm the first trans person that somebody else has ever met.

So telling people, you know, my world was athletics, et cetera, There wasn't a lot of talk about it there. It wasn't something that just ever came up. So even the people who were okay with it weren't really able to provide help.

Other than I did have some friends who were on the women's soccer team in college say I hadn't told them. They said, "we don't know what's going on, but something's going on and you should definitely go for counseling." And eventually I did. I started that my sophomore year of college.

How was that experience? Was the counselor helpful?

Oh, it was awful.

hate to find a bad therapist.

But yeah, it was more just a lack of knowledge. I went through almost every counselor in the counseling center and then they paired me with the director of the center as kind of a last ditch effort. And she was the person who finally said, "yes, you are trans." And my immediate reaction was, "oh man, how do I unknow this?"

Like, how do we put that away because I need to not know this anymore.

Gotta close Pandora's box.

Yes. And apparently you can't do that!

shit!

That's what I said! So now I'm just sitting there and I'm all mad at her. I'm like, you could have just let me be miserable forever. And she kind of. Well, I mean, that lasted a much longer time. But now I have to know and deal with this thing that I want nothing to do with, that I've been denying for not denying, but saying, I can get rid of this forever. And then it kind of turns out that you can't, no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try.

And now my shit, my perspective on all of it is obviously shifted just because I seen what being authentic has done for my life and what it's done for other people. But at the time it felt like a death sentence.

What does gender dysphoria feel like for the people who have not experienced that?

Oh, I would tell people to try it out, you know, go out in public and be anyone but yourself.

Hide every single thing about you while wearing the itchiest clothes you could ever even imagine, and then weigh them down with hundred pound barbells on both sides of and see how you can get through the day. It's hard. It's really hard to do. But at the time I didn't know anything else. I'm like, well, I've been working out, I should be able to do this.

And I did it. And I did it for a long time until I couldn't anymore.

Sounds completely exhausting.

It's exhausting, it's uncomfortable. And you just want it to stop, but you don't know how to get it to stop. And the people who tell you the ways to get it to stop I didn't want to listen to because I already knew everything, obviously.

Was it like church people or like who was the trying to get it to stop? What was that, like, message?

No, I would have had to have told the church people. I had already knew what was gonna happen there. But people who are trying to tell me the only way through this is actually through.

I mean, if you don't transition, I mean, we're kind of out of other things to do. And we listed all the different types of therapy that I've tried, all the different medications that I've tried, all different activities, and, and they were like, "has any of that helped at all?" I was like, "well, no." They're like, "so you're gonna keep trying that?" I was like, "yeah, probably," because I'm real bright sometimes.

I've read, like, so many books of trans characters and memoirs over the last, like, several years, and I know those. I'm sure some existed, but I feel like there's been kind of more of an outpouring of it recently. Were there any, like, books or movies or anything where you saw some trans rep that gave you a little hope?

Yeah. The first time I ever realized it was okay for other people to be trans was after I finished a book by Jennifer Finney Boylan. And this one was She's Not There. She's a very prolific author. She's written a lot. She just had a bestseller with Jodi Picoult called Mad Honey, if anybody wants to check these books out. I was like, oh, okay.

As a concept, I was able to let go of some of my anger towards other trans people who I was probably angry with because they were doing the thing, and I felt like I couldn't. But I would never express that as an honest emotion, so I would just be angry all the time. I still knew it wasn't okay for me, but it.

It started me working towards understanding it a little bit more, and not being as angry towards it eventually led me to be slightly less afraid of it.

So how old were you when you read that? Do you remember?

So college you have the counseling center director who's like, "yeah, you're trans."

Yeah.

And you read that book in, like, your mid-20s. It's still not until almost 34 that you transition. So what is, like, the final, the last straw? What pushes you to actually do the thing?

So this is where Catholicism comes back in on the positive side. And I'll be honest with you, I don't know that I've told people this in a public forum before, but as I mentioned earlier, I had tried everything I could think of. And I was ready to be gone. So heads up on a warning for that. But my Catholic guilt would not allow me to make that final decision without saying I've tried every single thing I could possibly do to make myself feel better. And the only thing I had not tried was transitioning. So my plan wasn't to transition successfully, whatever that means.

My plan was to sit, check that box, say, "okay, I did it, see how awful everything is," and then I could be done. Except that's not what happened. I checked the box, and I kept going. And that's why I'm here today.

I think we're all very glad that you kept going so we could all know Chloe.

I'm going to take that as a soundbite and play that for some others that I meet. Thank you.

So what were you really scared of when you started the process of transitioning?

I believed everything that I was told about, everything negative that they had told me, that I would never work again, that I would end up homeless, and all of these other things. Nobody would ever care about me. And the sad truth is, they're not wrong that those things could happen.

The oppression in the community, especially for trans people of color, is just so unwieldy and has been crafted over so many decades to purposely oppress us. I consider myself incredibly fortunate, incredibly lucky. I had people who helped me along the way, and those things absolutely could have happened.

And in some ways, some of them did. But I was able to keep going somehow through help of others. And also, I hate losing. I hate losing at anything.

I'm very competitive, and it became a very much, "Yeah, well, I'll show you!"

That's perfect. I can see how your sense of humor and your, like, competitive streak were good tools to get you through that.

Yeah, I was like, well, I mean, I guess playing football was helpful in that regard. I mean, I can't use any of my joints anymore, but, sure.

Who needs joints, right?

Who wants to walk?

So when you first went out in the world as a woman, what did that feel like?

Oh, that was terrifying. That was, oh, one of the first times I went out in the world as myself. I went out in New York City, and it was a disaster. Oh, it was real bad. I almost got beat up in a club. I had six guys surround me. And fortunately, this girl I had never seen before in my entire life came over and saw what was happening.

And she grabbed me and she goes, "oh, all of our friends are over here." And she pulled me over towards another group of girls to keep me safe. And then they went about their night and then the bouncer came over and kicked me out. And my friend who was there at the time, and I had had a crush on this person as well. And at another bar, I heard a guy talking crap about me to her and her not rebutting it. And I'm like, "none of this is going well."

So eventually, you know, disastrous night ends, I go back, I go home, and I had an amazing counselor at the time, and she kind of let me spend an hour crying. And then I went back in again. I started doing that again. And after about halfway through, she's like, yes, and? And we started to examine my decision making process and. And I had not set myself up for success in any of the planning decisions that I made.

I feel like such a privileged cis woman right now because I was expecting, like, it was amazing and I felt so good and you know, like the, the glowing version of it, but like, of course there's going to be, yeah, some really hard parts at the beginning. Was there another time after that? Or like, when did you start to have some gender euphoria or like, happier moments?

when I, when I set myself up for success, when I went out with really good friends in places that I knew were safe with people I knew would stick up for me. And just not setting myself up to have to fight alone in those moments a little bit more intentionally was incredible. And I was very fortunate. I had makeup lessons, that was really cool. Everyone was, you know, in those situations, people had been really nice.

You know, it's interesting, a lot of people assume they're like, "oh, so when you started to transition, everything got better." And my answer is absolutely not! Objectively, every single thing in my life got worse, but I didn't want to die anymore.

So however you square those two things, that is 100% what happened to me. And studies show that about 87% of trans people say their life got worse, but they felt better.

Yeah, I hear that so much. And that's why it's like so upsetting when people are so outraged about like kids getting surgeries and stuff, which is so few of them are getting surgery. And it is like life saving to have the ability to live how they want to live.

100%. Yes.

I'm curious about your nine year Chloeversary was recently, like, what do you think past you would say or think if they could talk to you?

Now you're like, "whoa! you did the thing I told you not to." And I'm like, "well, yeah, but you know how I always know what's right? I did that instead." So I think there would be some astonishment.

I think three year old me would be very proud of me. I think college me would be like, "I can't believe you did that." But, you know, the on the verge of the end, me would be like, "thank you for doing that." And it's weird because at an age where I had actively planned not to be here, it's like, well, now what? And now the whole world is kind of open in ways that I hadn't anticipated.

That's amazing. I especially like that image, the three year old you, so sweet.

I used to have a little Transformers tent over my bed, you know, to keep out the aliens. And I remember being under there and just, you know, and putting that out into the world. And I tell someone, I told people, you know, it took 34 years, but eventually it happened.

It's just so special.

Thank you.

I also want to hear, like, how did you choose your name, Chloe? I'm sure a lot of thought went into that.

That's what I tell people. A lot of thought went into that. And honestly, I had another name picked out and I was ready to go with it.

And I won't say it only because of the reason I didn't go with it. I was like, you know, I've met some people with this name, and they've never been nice.

And I'm like, I feel like I'm gonna be kind of nice unless people don't deserve it. And I was like, you know, what kind of person do I envision myself in my ideal world? What do I envision myself to be? And I want to be fun, friendly, maybe a little flirty. Eventually that part will work. And I was like, you know what, Chloe? Chloe sounds about right. And then I learned a little bit more about it, and in Greek, it means "to blossom." And I was like, oh, I get. Okay, I guess I'm Chloe now.

That's so perfect. And Chloe Corcoran just rolls off the tongue so well. it's just a great name.

Thank you. I'm enjoying it.

I think we'll take a quick little break now, and then we'll get into some more stories after the break.

Sounds great.

So just one more look back. I want to hear anything from, like, pre transition life. Is there anything about that that you miss?

I'll give you two. You know, on, on the difficult side. I miss the safety of it.

I mean, I was, by all accounts, everybody saw this huge white guy, football player bouncer and life was easier that way because people weren't as often looking to pick fights with me. So I do miss that. You know, the other parts that I miss are things that I can still do.

You know, I just, I miss the closeness I had with some of my friends, but I can get that back in some other ways. I miss some of those deep talk, but I can get that back in some other ways. And I'm really happy that I had those deep talks.

I'm happy my best friend and I talked about religion all the time because it was really formative in my life, even just learning how to think about different things. So, you know, I miss it, but I'm glad that it happened on that side of things and I'm also glad that I know that it can happen again.

Yeah. Do you regret that you lived so long as the other gender or do you feel some, like, gratitude for being able to have lived as both genders?

Definitely difficult on both sides. I would have preferred...I wish I had transitioned earlier. And I think that's a common refrain among most trans people.

One of probably the benefits of me transitioning later was that I had a professional resume at that point and I was somehow able to get another job after I was pushed out of one. So I think it benefited me in that way. But I wish I given it all.

I wish I would have transitioned earlier and I wish it was easier for people to transition in general. So they. Because they are afraid--and understandably so!

I'm glad at least it helped on the work experience side of things.

Yeah. Yes. Thank you.

So obviously, like, the media gets so much wrong about trans people and there are all kinds of terrible narratives and I don't really want to give those airtime. But there are also plenty of allies or people who like, think they get it or want to be helpful, but there are things that they don't get. So what are some common misconceptions that you hear from allies?

You got to trust that we know what we're talking about here and it's even well meaning. "Have you considered???" I guarantee we've considered it.

It's like, "have you tried not being this?" like, yeah, have you seen the past 30 years of what I was doing? So really trust us about our experiences. And I know it can be easy to say, "well, I'm sure that person didn't mean that." Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

But it certainly feels like they meant to insult you, they meant to hurt you, they meant to ask well meaning questions that are really terrible when you think about it. So just trust us. And honestly, you should probably hang out with us. We're really freaking awesome.

Like, every time I meet a trans person, they have, like, this very cool, like, origin story. Even if it's just like, yeah, I just did the thing. And then they're like, oh, now I'm an expert in this. You're like, "okay, that's cool. Let's talk about that."

That's pretty awesome. I feel like the thing you're describing too, where people respond poorly with, like, the "Oh, have you...?" you know, like, kind of undermining your feelings about something. Like, why even respond that way in the first place and, like, defend the other person or, "They didn't mean it that way" like...that's not helpful!

It's not helpful. What I would ask people is before you ask that question, or before you immediately jump out to have you considered or has this person, whatever you want to say in that moment, wait five seconds? Just wait five seconds. And if it still feels like the right thing to say, ask yourself again, is this the right thing to say?

And then really sit with that. And if you feel like you have to maybe just eat it until you can talk to another friend about it who's not trans, but maybe knows more trans people.

Because we're going through so much, and honestly, nine times out of ten, when we feel like we're being attacked, I mean, just turn on the news. We are. So just, you know, kind of give us the benefit of the doubt and just say, you know, that's got to feel really awful.

Yeah, it really seems minimizing to say that.

Yes.

So what are some of, like, the biggest challenges or fears right now as a trans woman day to day? I know there's obviously safety and a lot of other concerns.

Safety is a big one. I mean, I had a week where I got threatened five times in one week, and in one of the more accepting places in Southern California. So that's a big one. Access to healthcare is a big one. Keeping an eye out for what is deemed terrorism is actually a big one. So keeping an eye on legislation is pretty big. Keeping, you know, trying to stay employed, those types of things. So there's a lot of things to watch out for.

And also that also means there's a lot of opportunities for other people to step in and be accomplices and hire us, help us be safe, help us access the things that we need. There are so many amazing trans organizations that are like, "hey, we need warm socks, we need clothes. We need A, B and C. We need housing, and you can help in that way." And a lot of people are like, "well, you know, I have $20. I don't know what that can do."

I mean, trans mutual aid is mostly us passing around the same $20 is kind of the way we talk about it. So if you can double that. And also think about yourself, like, if you had to stretch $20, what could you do with that if you needed it to survive? And a lot of people do. So any bit helps. And as so many people are stepping up and helping out, it's amazing to see.

And if you think that what you can do or what you can offer won't be enough, I mean, nothing. You can't make somebody whole, but you can make somebody's life easier, you can make somebody's day easier. And, and that goes a long way. Knowing that somebody cares about you somewhere, even if they don't know you.

You're such a good interviewee because you jumped right from the fears and challenges to how people can help without me even having to ask you, you know.

And I'm, I'm happy to do that because I think, you know, I.

It's daunting.

It's daunting and it's scary, and it just is...I find a lot of people when I go out and I give talks in a lot of different places and I can see in the audience, okay, this audience doesn't need the statistics because they already know. What they need to know is that there's hope, because there is hope. And if anybody is wondering if there is hope for them, there is.

And you can reach out to me and we will talk it through. And you may not want to accept it because I certainly didn't. Everybody else was wrong who told me that I could ever possibly be okay. So I get that piece of it. But there is hope and there is reasons to keep going and there are ways that people can help and so many people are eager to help.

So when I give a lot of those talks, I talk about progressive steps because a lot of people are wondering, "well, I want to help, but I don't want to say the wrong thing." That's a great start! Okay, great. Okay, so we already have good intention. We mean to do well. How do we make that actionable? Help people feel comfortable when you're in the same environment. Look up what trans led organizations in your area are already doing. Help them out, volunteer, whether it's just like, "oh, we're having this event and you can help move tables and chairs." Eventually you should probably run for office, run for local office, run for national office. Whatever it takes to get involved.

Everybody's got what their skill set really lends itself to. I don't know. People are awesome and do awesome things all the time. Bring it on over here.

I love the tip you shared earlier about being an accomplice by hiring people in your workplace who are trans, because that's a huge one and a lot of people are involved in the hiring process, so. And even mentioning the names of trans folks in rooms you're in, like with your public speaking, that people can just shout trans folks out for opportunities.

100%. And here's the thing. I know what's said about me in rooms I'm not able to get into anymore because I used to be in those rooms. And all it takes is one person to ask a question, "well, why would we do that? Or why wouldn't we do that?" And then somebody has to explain themselves and they get real uncomfortable with that. Good. You should be uncomfortable with transphobia. I got no problem with that. Be uncomfortable, yes.

But asking the hard questions.

Ask the hard questions, say the hard thing, and hire us, most importantly.

All very good tips. I know you travel a lot for your work and just like to travel in general. And you mentioned some of the attacks on the street. So are there places that are safer you've found for trans folks to travel or safer to live?

I mean, even Rochester is better than a lot of places too. So the important thing, wherever you go, find your local spots, become a regular. Because once people see you, kind of feel like they have to look out for you. And then you also start to make friends and build community that way too. And you find other ways to get involved.

I love that. Speaking of community, what has helped you find community in LA after moving there from Rochester?

Well, I have always been really good at timing. So I moved to LA almost right before COVID started.

Perfect.

And I decided the first thing I would do is break my foot in the laundry room. So now I'm laid up until about February. Exactly. So I'm laid up till about February and then March comes and oh, now, now now we got a pandemic, so that was hard. But now getting involved in local organizations. Right now I'm taking a photography class through the trans group, one of the trans groups in LA. It's been amazing. It's also a community builder. While I'm learning cool skills and it's grant funded.

It's awesome going to community socials, finding out, you know, where are people hanging out, where are people going. But also not limiting yourself by identity too. Like if you're really into some people are really into Dungeons and Dragons, some people are really into sports, find a place you can go and watch a game with some other people or get involved in some other people's Dungeons and Dragons game. People who have a shared activity have ways to relate to each other.

When I think back into dude life, a lot of social activity was just watching the same thing together. We weren't talking about a lot at the time, but I wanted my team to win and hopefully they did too. So we would just do that and maybe have a beer.

That sounds very chill.

Very chill.

Unless my team was losing.

I know it also hasn't been all like sunshine. I mean, there is sunshine in LA, but all sunshine and rainbows, metaphorically, with moving. And there's been loneliness and it's not like super easy to find friendship. So like, how have you coped with some of that? Or do you want to share any stories of like, dealing with that?

Yeah. Loneliness is one of the things I, I still really struggle with. And for me it's tough to talk about because I've always been, you know, put out this positive image because people respond to positivity. And I'm learning more that being lonely isn't being negative. It's just a feeling. It's a part of a full spectrum of who I am.

Dating has been incredibly challenging for me. Being able to tell people that I'm feeling lonely, it's really weird and hard. But now I do it sometimes.

I remember one of my friends finally talked me into asking for help before a surgery and I was like, "I don't think this is a good idea." She was right. I hope she doesn't listen to this, but I asked for help and people showed up for me and that was really hard and rewarding for me.

So doing the hard thing, whatever it is in your life, I'd encourage you to at least try it once or twice. At least three times. Okay, maybe four.

It seems like we are so like we're overhyped. This male loneliness epidemic. And it's like, what about the rest of us?

Yeah.

Plenty of people of every gender are lonely. It's not a dude thing.

It's so pervasive right now because once. Once one person kind of in a group says, "yeah, I've been feeling pretty lonely," you find out a lot of other people are too, and maybe they don't know how to express, express it, or even if I express it, so what then what happens?

I'm still lonely, but now I'm with another lonely person that's still a little less lonely. And you can start working your way from there. And I say this as I still struggle with it daily. I mean, even when I'm with people, I can feel lonely.

So that's one of those things that I'm continuously...I don't want to say working on, because I don't know if it's something that needs to be worked on, but processing and I working on my acceptance of it as that this is a part of my life right now. Maybe it won't always be, but sitting in it, I don't do well with that. And I just need to do it.

I don't know how many of us are, like, programmed to just run a little more lonely or a little more sad. And just the way our brains are naturally versus, like, what's the life experiences or situations or eras we're in that are making us feel that way.

Yeah. And I think part of the struggle is, you know, even in counseling, like, yeah, you know, it's hard for people to be around somebody who's sad or whatever. And then you start to, well, I shouldn't tell anybody about that. But then you even feel worse.

You feel more lonely, and maybe the three people that you're talking to are doing the exact same thing. So there's got to be some feeling out there. And I think that's how I started trying to mix in some positivity.

I think the pendulum might have swung a little too far for me, just in that I struggle with certain kinds of vulnerability. So trying to be able to do that a little bit more.

Yeah.

Is my future goal.

I know you're so positive and so funny, but you don't have to be invulnerable, too.

Oh, that doesn't feel good. But you're right. it doesn't feel good.

Sorry!!

No. And like. And also really hard for me to say, "yeah, you're right."

Well, I want to talk a little bit about the podcast that you are on. Not my podcast, but the one you starred in, the Being Trans, from Lemonada Media. It was a few years ago, and I know you were mic'd up and followed around and sharing all these parts of your life with the world, so I'm curious what that experience was like.

I remember hearing about that show. There were some really cool people in it.

I think there was a billboard in Times Square or something?

Oh, my gosh. I wonder if that girl Chloe took a picture of herself in front of it. Yeah, it was interesting. I...the way that came about was I was sitting around during the beginning of the pandemic and thinking, well, do I really live in LA if I don't audition for something? And I saw in a Facebook group that I was in for LA trans people. Hey, we're looking for trans people for this. And I was like, "I'm a trans person. I can do that. I live in LA."

So I auditioned, and I think it was five or six rounds later they cast me, but I also had to go through a screening with a psychologist before they would officially cast me, just to make sure that, like, "hey, we know that there will probably be blowback from this. Are you prepared to handle it?" And I got them to think that I was.

I was going to say, how bad were the other people off that you got?

I know, right? I'm like, oh, man. Alright, so. But it worked out. It worked out really well. And I was, I was happy that they did that because some of the questions really got me to think. Think ahead, like, how will I cope with this?

You know, how will I create a strategy to keep myself, you know, in a place I want to be going through this? And then the crew that I worked with was just awesome. The other people on the show were awesome. They followed me around for, I think it was about 15 hours a week, 10 to 15 hours a week. And, yeah, for almost six months for me, because they, the last person I saw before one of my facial surgeries was my producer as they wheeled me back in, because they covered part of that on the show.

That must have helped with the loneliness a little.

Yeah. And then she was really nice. She got me a really soft blanket, too. So that was cool.

That's really cool. Did you have any control in the end over what the narrative and stories were that they told? Or was it just like, they get all the footage and they do what they want? Or maybe you can't say.

I tried to. I tried to have influence. And they're like, "that's cute. We'll let you know when it's done." And I feel incredibly fortunate because I feel like they did a really respectful job with it. They did a nice job with it and they were honest. Like, none of nothing in that show is made up. It is not contrived. It is the way that life happened.

One of the big reasons I wanted to do it was I again, you know, I hear a lot of people say, well, "I just don't want to say the wrong thing." So they just kind of sit it out. And this is a way for people to learn about trans people in a more passive way. You don't have to worry about saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing, but you can still learn. And what you're going to realize is that almost everything we talk about in that show is relatable to everybody else's life too. Relationships, loneliness, do I want to have kids? Is that even a conversation I can have with myself? I explore that on there.

You're four very normal people living normal lives. Nothing...

Thanks for calling me normal!

I'm curious also, like, with the recording they did, were you able to set some boundaries? Was there still some privacy or were they, it was just up to them when they were there and what they got to hear?

So I could always self edit, you know, in the moment. That's not really helpful to the purpose that I was doing it for. And also sometimes you forget that you're wearing a mic in all honesty, because you have it on for so long. And there's nothing in that show where I'm like, "I wish they really hadn't done that" or "I wish I hadn't said that."

Like, even if I did in the moment, I'm like, I don't know that I want to put that out there. I think it was for the best, even if it's not just for me, you know, for other people. And I keep thinking about that I'm not here just for me. And I really don't think any of us are here just for ourselves.

And if we all start taking care of each other a little bit more, and if I try to make somebody else's life easier the way that somebody else made my life easier, oh, maybe we can all get to a good place together.

I love that. I hate that I'm starting to think in like sound bites for the marketing of this show, but I'm like, ooh, that's a perfect quote. Like that we're not here for just ourselves. We're here for others too. Got to remember that. can be hard day to day.

It can be really hard because you.

Just get lost in your own shit!

You get lost in your own shit and, and you see other people not acting that way towards us or towards you. You know, let's, let's make it individual. Like, if I see somebody not acting that way towards me, my first instinct isn't let me be gracious and love them up. It's like, oh, well, I'm gonna push back. That's natural. I mean, I'm not saying I don't do. I do it often. And I'm trying to. You know how I said earlier, "wait five seconds"? I'm trying to wait five seconds.

Not always easy.

I'm trying. I didn't say I'm doing it.

One more thing I want to touch on with being trans. Not the podcast, the actual.

The life.

Yes. What's like a very underrated part of being trans or just something cool that cis people don't get to experience or know?

Man, once the hormones kick in and you just, you start thinking with more clarity, you're not clouded as much anymore. You're like, "oh, my gosh, I can actually accomplish so much in a day." If this, when this cloud of, you know, whatever I'm feeling lifts, even just a little bit.

And then getting to know people who are just 100% like themselves in the way that they not only express themselves, but, hey, I'm really interested in this. And I don't really, you know, you don't have to be, but I'm going to find people who are, and we're going to go do something amazing together.

And if you haven't checked out any trans musicians, find some, especially in your area. Go support their shows. Trans musicians rock. And find some trans authors and trans crafters, too.

Are there any trans musicians that you want to shout out specifically?

So there is. I don't know how to pronounce her name correctly, but. J, A, E, L. Holzman. They just put out a song called Horse Glue. That's really good.

I really like Mel Stone. She had. I think she has at least two albums out. There's a few more. There's. Oh, my gosh. It's a Beatles take. Oh, Polythene Pam up in the Oakland area.

They're awesome. I've been to a couple of their shows and just really cool people, too. And there's so many more. And I would just recommend searching them out, because once you find one, they all know each other and they're like, they're gonna recommend each other. So.

I am. I have been working on a performance piece that I'm really excited about. It's about the night that I...the culminating point is the night that I came out to one of my college teammates. And I built it into a 30 to 45 minute show that is really universal in that it's not about, oh, it's hard because it's trans. It's hard because life is hard and being authentic is hard, no matter whatever that is in your life.

Throwing it out for the universe.

That's right. We're all going to do good things for each other, remember? Yes.

I love the clip you sent me the other day and I want to see more. So I hope that it does get picked up.

It ends on a cliffhanger!

Or you can perform it after this, just for me, live.

Oh, happily, happily.

Excellent. Well, thank you for coming on the show tonight, Chloe. It was really fun to get to talk to you.

This has been awesome. Thank you so much for having me. This is a really cool experience.

This has been a presentation of the Lunchador Podcast Network.

So it turns out that trans people like different things, have simple and complex emotions about things other than being trans? Who knew!