Poet, massage therapist, and tango dancer Ricard Stimac talks with Washington Square Review editor Melissa Ford Lucken. After years in the business and marketing world, Stimac, seeking more meaningful work, became a massage therapist. Stimac emphasizes the importance of clear writing, muses on the beauty of intentionality in words and movement, and offers an inside look at the world of tango dancing.

Richard’s poem, Autumn Notes, appears in the Summer 2026 issue of the Washington Square Review.

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Washington Square On-Air is the audio town square for the Washington Square Review, Lansing Community College's literary journal. Writers, readers, scholars, publishing professionals, citizens of the world, gather here and chat about all things writing.

Hey there. This is Melissa Ford Lucken, editor for the Washington Square Review.

I'm here today with Richard Stimac, whose poem Autumn Notes appears in our Summer 25 issue. Hey there, Richard.

Hello.

How are you doing?

Good.

I was wondering if you would read the poem for us before we start to ask you questions about it.

Sure. So this is called Autumn Notes.

When the show is over, the lights come on, the crowds have gone their way, the band leaves notes windfallen across the soul worn dance floor.

I glean the seed sized quarters, halves and holes, de stem their staves and strip the leafy flags before I drop them in my drawstring mesh and tote them home to core and peel and press for cold fermented cider brandy mead. I age my memories of music well.

Beautiful. Thank you. How did you come to write the poem?

Well, we probably talk as my process in general. So I, you know, I write every day if. Meaning that I sit in front of a blank screen and piece of paper every day.

So one thing that didn't come up in pre production is I also dance tango, which Argentine tango, which I think also folds in to the, the physical touch aspect.

And so this poem probably, if it has any source, would come from just an image, a visual image during a tango dance of the notes hanging in the air and then at the end of the night falling down. And I probably, maybe not this poem, but other poems.

The image that I immediately began with would have been, no, I think I've used it in other poems actually, maybe at least one poem, stars. But then I thought, oh, that's a little bit, that's a little bit hackneyed.

And I don't know where the idea of the notes falling, being fallen fruit, windfall was, but that's, that's the image. So when I write, I either get a first line or sort of governing image and then I think like, oh, I can work with that.

Like I can do something, do something with that. And so that original image came and then I just started working on it.

How did the emotions show up for you? I hear what you're saying about starting with an image. Do the emotions come while you write or are they tucked into the image?

I guess I'm not quite sure if emotions necessarily come to play during the writing part.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm. I'd say I'm more technical. So, you know, I'm a. I'm a formalist in the sense of a word says what that word says.

And so I'm more just trying to get a group of words that fit coherently together. And I am always reminded of that last two sentences of T.S.

Eliot's tradition and the individual talent, which he says something along the lines of poetry is not an expression of emotion and personality. Poetry is an escape from emotion and personality. But then he adds, of course, one must first have emotion and personality.

But yeah, so I think I look at it more like, oh, I. I have an image I can build a poem around than I have, because I can. Maybe we can express our emotions in probably easier ways than writing a poem, perhaps.

You said you're a, a formalist. How did you come to self identify that way? Were you always, always thinking of yourself in those terms or was there a moment awareness?

Back up what we mean by formalist, because there's the, the formalist in the sort of like new formless meaning, strict meter and rhyme, formalist.

But then I think what I mean is more the linguistic or philosophical idea of a formalist, meaning something that said a poem, or even this conversation takes its meaning from how it's said.

So, you know, there's a new criticism phrase that I think is accurate, something called the paraphrasable content, in a sense that if you're saying something, if you're saying, well, what does your poem really say? It says what those group of words say. And if you say, this is what it really means, you're in a sense saying something different. It's.

It's the form itself that is, is saying it. Because if you could say it differently and better, why wouldn't you have done that in the first place?

Okay.

You know, I always think when people say, well, what does your poem really say? And then people explain it, I'm like, well, why didn't you just explain it that way?

Like you had some sort of clearer way to give what you were trying to say than. Yeah.

So in some ways I would come from the stance that every time you're giving an explanation of something, you're in a sense explaining, you're making a new statement that itself would need an explanation. And so that's what I mean by formalist, not formalist in the sort of, you know, Richard Wilbur Dana Goya way.

Okay, but.

But more in the linguistic sense, I.

Think if I'm hearing what you're saying. Right. I'm reflecting on how many times people tell me that they don't like poetry because of this whole, like, what does it mean? Thing.

And it gets to be kind of a frustration and a dislike. Like there's something hidden in the poem that they have to decode. And I think that's legit. So I hear what you're saying.

If you can say it the best way that you possibly can and let it speak, speak for us.

Well, I would say I've just been reading or studying some Yates poems. How do you tell the difference between the dance and the dancer? How do you tell the difference between the poem and what the poem is saying?

It's the same thing. The dance and the dancer are the same thing. The poem and its meaning are the same thing. That's it. That's formalism.

That's cool. I like that. I like that a lot. Since you brought up dancers, let's talk about the tango. How did you come to be a tango dancer?

Yeah, so that was a roundabout way. So about 25 years ago, well, longer than I would like to think, I was dating someone who is in the Washington university here in St. Louis.

I'll refer to it as Washu, which is what we call it, Washu Law School. And she wanted to go to the ballroom dance club on a Sunday night.

And I didn't know anything about dance, but I was a good boyfriend, so I went and I fell in love with dance. So not necessarily ballroom. I don't care much for ballroom. But then a swing, and then salsa and Latin.

And then finally there was one local St. Louis Argentine tango teacher. And I started dancing tango. And I would say, if any dance is my primary one, it would be tango. And there's just. There's a lot of.

I would use the term rhetoric about connection, connection and touch. They would say, people might say, like, tango is about connection.

I would say tango can be about connection, or it can be just about doing a bunch of patterns. Right. And so tango would be a good, you know, a good example where I think people.

There's a kind of push and pull and give and take about what is a good tango. There's a famous phrase which probably relates somewhat to poetry and lots of art. When I was a beginner, I did 10 steps, not very well.

When I was intermediate, I did 20 steps fairly well. And when I was an expert, I did five steps, but I did them very, very well. And probably the same goes for lots of art.

You've been, you know, doing a lot of junk. You don't know what you're doing. Then you. Right Think you do lots of stuff, you know, look at all I know.

And then later on you're like, you know what? I do this small amount of stuff. This is what I do.

Yeah, I, I did actually like the moment when I thought I knew everything about writing. You know, after I'd sold a couple things, I was like, I'm awesome. I know everything.

And then, you know, about a year later, I'm like, I don't know anything. And then you just, you end up knowing less and less as time goes on.

So I think everyone needs to enjoy that moment where they, they really do believe they know everything, because it doesn't come back. What, what was it about the dance that made you so, like, fall in love with it?

You know, I've been at it, I guess, for 20 plus years and hardly anybody dances tango consistently. Everybody kind of goes in and out. And the music from the golden era and really afterwards is extremely, you know, sophisticated. It's.

There is something bewitching about some of the great tango orchestras of the music. And, and yeah, and I went through my phase too where I learned a lot of fancy stuff. And I was going to do that every single dance.

Whether it fit that particular partner or that particular song, I was gonna just do it. But, you know, as time has gone on, there is something minimalist. So an Argentinian will almost always say, let me give you some advice. Pause more.

So I think of tango more like blues guitar. And let's say salsa more like rock guitar.

Okay.

Swing. Or like you're filling up every space with a step in swinging salsa.

Okay.

While, while in tango, the well placed pause or the well placed very, very slow step, like, you know, just like a blues guitar, it's like one note like, you know, B.B. King made a fortune basically playing one note, you know, that just had that one note. He could just play.

I've heard people say that each of the sections of a tango dance kind of tells a story. And is that where that pause comes in?

This is just something people tell me that each pattern itself is distinct and then you move on to another distinct pattern. Is that a real thing or.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it is. And it's also just, you know, because the pause, you're supposed to pause with the music. So it's not just, let's take a, take a break.

Can you like pause as the music does something and then kind of breathe and then just go on? You know, and the general idea too is that you pause for at least eight beats. So two full measures. So not Just.

That's quite long.

Yes. Yes.

How do you think your love of dance translates into your writing and other creative areas?

I think my work, my poetry is very visual and physical. Like, I. I live in a physical world, a very physical, tactile world. And somebody wrote a blurb for my upcoming book, and he quoted a line of mine.

It says, you know, I do not live in a world of metaphors. And so I think. Yeah, I think it's. It's that. I think the very kind of physicalness of it, which I think comes. Comes across in my poetry.

Okay, you and I talked before we started to talk here today about your work in massage therapy. How does that fit in?

Sure. So before, I guess I was August, was five years as a massage therapist.

And I. I couldn't sit through any meeting right now. So I'd been getting massages for a long time, so it always been on my radar.

And I kind of looked into what I could make and what the schedule would look like, and it just never fit into my life. And then about five or six years ago, I said, yeah, I can do this.

And because I also drive for Uber on the side, because massage therapy, week by week, income can fluctuate up and down a lot. And. And so I thought, okay, well, massage therapist. So I thought, I want to work with the body. I want to learn about the body.

And that did relate to, you know, wanting to improve my dance, I guess. Over three years, I've been taking Alexander Technique, which maybe if we can talk about that a little bit, what that is. Alexander Technique.

I wanted to do a job where I helped people. And I don't mean like, help a billionaire make more money, which is what I wasn't. Which is what I was doing beforehand, actually help people.

And I wanted the flexibility because, you know, we can change our schedule. I work at a. A franchise. We can change our schedule, add hours, take hours off whenever, you know, whenever we want, and also possibility to move.

There's kind of reciprocal state licenses. It can be complicated, but there's a move to make a sort of national license so people could just state to state.

Yeah, because right now we're licensed. Not every state has it, but in Missouri, we're licensed by the state so not. There's only maybe four or five states don't have state licensing.

Okay.

And their requirements are very different. And if you go to another state, there's almost always going to be like one or two courses that state requires, you know. Yeah, yeah.

Like, you know, like every state licensing.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah. So that's, that's that. And so I went into it, and the Healing Arts Center, I knew nothing about. It was just 10 minutes.

It was the closest school I went to because the other ones would have been, know, longer drives during rush hour. And it was a very new agey holistic school. And I had like, no idea. It didn't bother me. But we did, like lots of meditation. I got Reiki 1 certified.

We'd had lots of energy and breath work.

Okay.

But. And we probably. There was probably a lot of wasted time. And I mean, just because there was. And it was, it had its funkiness.

And I talked to other people who went to other schools and they were much more like, it's much more vocational. Like, we're going to teach you how to be a good massage therapist, get a job and keep a job.

So the, the owner said that the Healing Arts center was a personal development school that taught massage.

Oh, interesting. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

So side note here, for anyone who's thinking about going to massage therapy school, they should probably look at the curriculum.

Yeah, yeah. They can be very different. But because of that, we had a really big focus on like, the individual.

So I'm working at a franchise where a lot of people went to one of the allied health schools, which was much more like, we're going to teach you how to do this job really well. And sometimes I'll have a client and the client will be like, did you go to the Healing Arts Center? And I'm like, yeah, I did. How did you know?

And they're like, I can tell.

Okay.

Yeah. So clients will be like, yeah, we can. Yeah. They're like, no, there's a difference between.

Or they'll be like, you know, I've had massages from other people, went to Healing Arts center, and there's just a different experience with you guys. And so we were much more focused on holistic and touch more as a sort of, you know, deep therapeutic experience.

And then if you want to go even further, you know, with the energy work and kind of, you know, that sort of direction. And, you know, I am Reiki, Reiki one trained. So I think that, you know, fits in there also.

Like, for example, when I started massage, it felt really really uncomfortable for me to just, like, walk into the room after, you know, clients disrobe on the table, you know, and just, like, just start touching someone. And then. Or when you're done, you just lift your hands off. You're like, we're done. I can't do this. I can't. This is really bothering me.

So I have this sort of like, almost like yoga class introduction.

Like, you know, like, you know, and we just kind of breathe together and we go through this whole sort of like, let's let go of anything, and then we have this sort of conclusion. And I think that's probably a reflection. You know, for example, I always say, like, I'm gonna touch your back before I actually touch them.

And so I think that's probably a reflection, you know, both of my personality, but also the training of trying to do something besides just, you know, give a massage, which is great, which is a great thing. Not downplaying that, but it's. And that was just by chance. Yeah, I'd say that's how it fits in.

Also, the way you described your approach at the beginning of the massage and at the end, it kind of reminded me of what you were saying about your poetry. The clarity of intent and expressing it clearly.

So. Which actually then ties back into tango. So the sort of traditional. And what, you know, many teachers will say you should do is you.

You know, you come together very slowly. Like, I. Last year, I took lessons with of the most famous dancers. And her partner is like a sort of, you know, demigod in tango.

And he was just like, you know, you bring him up and he was like. And so she kind of teaches in his tradition. And you come together into the embrace and you breathe. You just stand and you breathe together.

And then as a lead, maybe you'll take a breath together and just take a sidestep and pause and breathe. And there's a lot in sort of social tango, it's kind of like. Would you like to answer? Hey, let's go. You just. It's just often.

Often running from the first step. And so I think. Yeah, so I think that's probably. That probably ties in all together.

You mentioned a particular technique, Alexander. Did I remember that right?

Yeah. Yeah. So, Alexander, technique. Many people don't know that, but many people have heard of, let's say, Feldenkrais or. It's a somatic movement.

So this is where I would describe it, the sort of movement.

And they come out of the performing arts, to a large extent, dance and acting, the sort of physical Performing arts, there's performative and then there's somatic.

So the classic performative is going to be classical ballet in which you put yourself into this particular position and it doesn't matter what it feels to you. It doesn't matter if you understand, it doesn't matter if you're injuring yourself.

I mean, what matters is that physically you are doing what is required to put yourself in that position. In internally, it's irrelevant. In somatic, you begin more with internally. Like, what is it feeling like? So it's not right or wrong.

It's not that there is no right or wrong. There is. But the teacher, for example in Alexander technique or any somatic might be like, just stand there and stand up straight.

Tell me what feels like standing up straight to you. Now the person may be like this, you know, hunched over, but that's what feels standing up straight to them.

So what the long term and somatic movement is that when the person feels like they're standing up straight, they actually are like, you know, they're, they can feel that. And so Alexander technique is really focused on inhibiting unnecessary tension. So this is literally what I've been doing every week.

There's some variation is there's just a lot of sitting down and standing up and trying to not tense anything that is unrequired. So it's not, it's not learning how to stand. We know how to do that. Right. It's like, oh, for some reason I'm gripping my toes.

Okay, let's let the toes relax. Okay. Okay. Oh, now I realize there's a little tension in the hips. What happens then? And then as that happens, you find that the body kind of expands.

And then you practice like, okay, now I've gotten this sort of relaxation. Can I sit without hunching down? Because most time when we sit, we collapse and we tighten up. Can I stay tall and wide and sit down? And instead.

So it's. And then the other part of Alexander technique is what's called table work. And that's you. The student lays on a massage table and the teacher slowly.

And this could take 20 minutes.

Slowly might take a leg and extend it and then puts it in, in the flex position, comes underneath, holds the arm out and slowly just moves around the body for maybe 20 minutes so that your body ultimately at the end is as wide and open and taking up as much space as you can. And it's an attempt then to train the neuromuscular system.

Like, this is what it feels like when your body is as Wide and open and taking up as much space as it can. And so that has affected both, you know, my dance and my massage and my. My everyday movement. So it's. Yeah.

And my teacher is Dawn Karlovsky, who has a dance company here in the Midwest, was the hotbed for Alexander Technique.

Oh, okay.

Dance had been part of P.E.

Oh, okay. So it seems like it would help prevent injuries.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's really. It's really just, like I said, about identifying unnecessary tension. It's not about no tension. It's not about relaxing.

It's about just identifying where we're holding tension that we don't need to. And. And then how do we move while maintaining that?

That's pretty fascinating. I could see how that would definitely carry through other areas of your life, because obviously we're always moving through life.

But when you're in a different situations where you might be feeling tense and not realizing it, you can start to recognize it in your body because you're tension tensing up in places, and it could be kind of a. A cue to yourself. You're like, what am I stressed out about right now?

Yeah. Or it could just even just be, you know, a pattern of behavior.

Yeah.

When we sit down. When we sit down, all of us, we're going to have this tendency of bringing the shoulders forward and actually kind of crunching down.

Right.

That's just, you know, the pattern. How can I stand up and sit down? You know, by staying up. I don't need to do this. I only do that.

You know, that's. That's pretty fascinating. And I think it gives people a new insight into massage.

And maybe if they're thinking about going to get a massage, what kind of questions to ask before they, you know, commit to somebody.

Yeah, yeah.

So it. How does it translate into the massage, then? When you think about working my.

My personal technique, you know, the less chance of injuring myself, because that's the real thing that massage therapists have to first focus on anybody, when there's any massage therapist, and they're like, hey, what advice can you have? And I'd be like, don't push your body and don't injure yourself, because I did five years ago, and I'm still. It's.

There's just, you know, Borderline dysfunction. And yeah, the injury for massage therapists, that's really what ends careers, is an injury.

And it always comes from poor mechanics putting a lot of effort into it, but just, you know, poor mechanics or trying too hard and just injuring themselves. So, yeah, better mechanics, less chance. But then as I move with more ease, that's going to translate into the quality, you know, of my touch.

There's just, you know, the. It feels different when somebody is pressing into you versus when somebody's body weight is just moving on its own.

And so that's going to, you know, affect. Affect the quality of the experience for the client. Also, you.

You mentioned that you're working on a book. Now, before we say goodbye, want to talk a little bit about that?

Yeah.

So I'm monothematic, and I went to a pretty famous writing workshop a few years ago, and one of the co teachers said, like, oh, all the great writers are monothematic. And I was like, well, how about that?

Okay.

And so in some way it's, you know, it still uses a lot of the imagery of the St. Louis area, the landscape and what I call the humanscape and my own experiences, but it's less personal. I think that that first book, Brickollage, was very personal, and this one is moving more towards some political and. And socially oriented poems.

And then. Then a third book is in the works, and that's gonna be, I think, much more explicitly political. Yeah.

So, yeah, there's some poems in Blood, Water and Stone which are explicitly historical and political.

Okay.

Like, there's no sort of. Where are you all. Where are you in that? No, it's. It's not. I'm not in there directly at all.

And then the third book will probably be much more like that.

I'm not going to go in the fully in the direction of Muriel Rukeyser, but a little bit in that first book, I have, you know, visiting Mother Jones's grave.

So Mother Jones, I was born in Staunton, which is about an hour from St. Louis, and my grandfather, and both my great grandfathers on my mom's side worked in the coal mines in Illinois. So Illinois at one time had one of the largest coal production industries in the country. Yeah.

And so there was a violent strike in Virgin, where some miners were killed. And Mother Jones, the labor activists, requested to be buried with them.

And so she is actually buried in Mount Olive, Illinois, which is what that poem is about, which is right next to Staunton, which is what that poem is about. Visiting before the grave had been the marker had been restored. It was in disrepair when I visited it.

And so I'm starting to think of a working title because Muriel Rukeys, you know, most famous book is the Book of the Dead. But I'm thinking of a working title is the Midwest Book of the Living.

And it's maybe not purely documentary poetry, but moving more towards that direction and just exploring my own family's personal history. But then the history of the area and the labor history and moving in that direction.

Sounds great. So if people would like to watch for that second book to come out, where can they find you online?

That's going to be. I have. I have two Facebook pages. One is Richard Steamak. I have no friends on that one, so don't like friend me there. I'll direct you.

I use that to keep track of events I want to go to. The one to follow me on would be Richard Steamak, poet on Facebook.

Okay, perfect.

I post things there regular basis and keep track there.

Okay, well, we'll be sure to include that link in the show notes.

Yeah.

Well, thanks for talking to me today.

Yeah, I appreciate it. This has been a very nice event for me. Thank you.

Awesome.

Thanks for stopping by the audio town square of the Washington Square Review. Until next time, this has been the Washington Square On-Air from Lansing Community College. To find out more about our writers, community and literary journal, visit lcc.edu/wsl. Writing is messy, but do it anyway.