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Capturing Human Capital Analytics
Episode 518th May 2022 • Human Capital Lab • Bellevue University
00:00:00 00:19:39

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As learning leaders seek to earn and keep a seat at the strategy table, they must be able to accurately measure people effectiveness and process efficiencies. The ability to predict or forecast human performance requires an understanding of the WHAT, WHY, and HOW of human performance. For today's episode, Dave Gregory and Jay Delling, co-founders of Conatus3, will share stories of measuring people and intentionally changing behavior to improve results. 

Big Takeaways: 

  1. Measuring emotional intelligence includes seven categories; communication skills, interpersonal skills, personal motivators, self-awareness, self-management, social awareness, and social skills. 
  2. Human capital data verifies how unique every human is, and how that can benefit an organization.  
  3. Measuring human capital throughout the employee’s lifecycle with a company is a great way to measure the learning effectiveness of your company’s programs. 

This is a Growth Network Podcasts production. 




Dave Gregory and Jay




Let's discover what lies at the intersection between

learning and the lives of the people who make business happen. I'm Dr.

Michelle Eckler and this is the Human Capital Lab podcast. As learning leaders

seek to earn and keep a seat at the strategy table,

they must be able to accurately

measure people effectiveness and process efficiencies. The ability to predict or

forecast human performance requires an understanding of the, what, why and

how of human performance.

For today's episode, Dave Gregory and Jay

Delling will share stories of

measuring people and intentionally changing behavior to improve results.

The Human Capital Lab's mission is to develop innovative and valuable

approaches to unlocking the human potential of human capital investment.

Conatus 3

was co


founded by Dave Gregory, a member and expert of the

Human Capital Lab. Based upon these same principles, Conatus 3 provides

access to tools necessary to capture the what, why, and how, of human

performance. If you can't measure it, you can't manage


Jay Delling is a co


founder of Conatus 3. A 20 plus year veteran of the

healthcare industry, he managed pharmaceutical products, sales teams, and

clinical liaisons, and multiple states for both Novartis and Pfizer. Coupled with

his experience in home h

ealth and telle


health service options, Jay provides

Conatus 3 customers with a broad range of expertise and profit acceleration. A



author of the "50 K in 15 minutes", Jay helps clients identify the strategic

areas of their business to increase profits


And one of my partners in crime, Dave Gregory, led organizational

performance as a global vice president of human resources with Alorica. He

was chief learning officer with Global Receivable Solutions and was the

director of performance enhanceme

nt with the West Business Solutions. During

Dave's 30 plus years in telecommunications and business process outsourcing,

his learning programs have been delivered to more than 1 million participants.

So Dave and Jay, thank you so much for joining us today

on this episode, I'm

really looking forward to our conversation and learning a little bit more about

what we can teach our fellow L and D collaborative partners.



Thank you, Michelle. It's going to be fun to be with you





Michelle, love being with you. Thanks for the opportunity to

hang out with you.



I really like to first get started hearing a little bit about

when you started looking into measuring learning effectiveness.

Dave, why don't we star

t with you?



Yeah, Michelle, it's been something that I've been interested

in for a long time because I've always found that some people consistently

outperform other people. And I've been interested in why? Can we understand

what it is tha

t makes people more successful than others? And the question are

leaders born or made, really intrigued me.

And I wanted to find a way to measure and predict human performance.



Ooh. I'd like to learn more about that too. Jay, what abou





t really started in the early:

golf coach at Newman University and NAI school. And I became very intrigued

about how to measure learning effectiveness. And I came across the great book

from Stephe

n Covey, The Seven Habits of Highly Successful People, and I was

particularly drawn to having number two, begin with the end in mind.

I'd always coach players and be willing to put the work and practice to

ximize their potential. So in:

test the theory of "begin with

the end in mind", we had an excellent team that year and I challenged them to

establish an end goal for the year. We had an active discussion and the end goal

was to qualify and make the 36 hole cut in the national championsh


tournament that was held at TPC at Sawgrass, which by the way is a very iconic

course in the United States.

So beginning with the end in mind, we moved backwards, filling in the steps

required to reach the goal. Part of the steps for me was upgrade our

schedule to

make it more competitive. The players then committed to developing their

games through dedication and practice, conditioning, those kinds of things. So

all the players were excited about begin with the end in mind, and guess what?

It worked. We

won the district 10 championship, which automatically qualified

us for the national tournament.

And so we made the 36 hole cut, finished the tournament in 17th place. We

performed in the top 5% of all schools that play golf. So that was my first

attempt a

t really measuring learning effectiveness and I've used the "begin with

the end in mind" in strategy in my leadership coaching ever since.



So when you think about all of the different types of

human capital data that are out there, wh

at specifically do you, Jay, start with?

What do you measure?



So we really focus on measuring preferred behavior styles,

internal motivators, how people critically think, make decisions and solve

problems. And so, as you mentioned earlier,

we call this the, what why and how

of human performance. And really awareness and the ability to apply these

performance measures really increases our emotional intelligence and our

ability to contribute at a high level to the success of the orginization



The science behind what we're using is called axiology and it

was developed by Robert Hartman, who was a German researcher and came to

the United States in the:


And so we've

developed the use of both inner metrics profiles, as well as TTI

success insights, are the companies we use that provide that same science to us.

And it does measure across Disc, which many people are familiar with. This is

the axiology version of Disc ve

rsus some of the other versions that exist.

And then we look at values, as you talked about understanding why people do

the things they do, Disc is about preferred behavioral styles. And then we use

the attribute index and the attribute index is different

in that it's a cognitive

assessment versus the other two, which are non


cognitive, and we capture more

than 93 different data points based on the information someone provides in the

survey to us.

And then we can identify 27 different external and 27 differ

ent internal patterns

of thought along with about 20 external and 20 internal emotional biases that

people have. So the science behind this makes the combinations really


And you've heard people talk about how human beings are unique and that


really what we have found. There's a lot of different instruments out there that

measure from a psychological perspective how people think. Find the one that

works for your organization, but make sure you're capturing this human capital

data in one fash

ion or another.



That's a lot of data points, Dave. And for some people that

might be a bit overwhelming, but I'm sure that there is a way to help them

capture and know what are the points that they need to pay attention to for what


y're trying to accomplish. I know one of the first questions that might come

to mind to some of our listeners is, what about these assessments and the data?

How are they validated, what are the steps you've taken to ensure that they are





Yeah. So there's a lot of research that's gone in to making sure

that they are valid. One of the standards that we have in the US is the equal

opportunity commission, so EOC. And the validation studies that the attribute

index specifically has gone throug

h is there's 28 individual about validation

studies that have been conducted over about the past 20 years.

And we've used 19 different examiners to examine the tool. And validation was

important to us to be documented and not only construct validity and co


validity and face validity, but also predictive validity. And so while ongoing

research continues to underscore the value of this particular tool, we're always

looking at the validity of the assessments.

And we're really confident now because we'v

e seen just in our own practice,

we've seen over a million different profiles have been used by our customers.

And so we have a chance to meet with people and review profiles with people,

what we consistently hear from them is it's a little scary how accur

ate they can




Would you help us understand this a little bit more?

Would you share an example of how you use human capital data to help a




We always begin with gathering the human capital data by

having the participant complete the three assessments that we use. The disc, the

values, the attributes index. And actually just yesterday, a coaching client leader

I was talking to is really frustr

ated with a direct report needing validation on a

$96 billing air. So I brought up both of their Conatus three profiles. And so the

review showed that the leader was a very high D. So very decisive, very

demanding, can be demonstrative.

The direct report w

as a high C. So very cautious, very analytical. And the C's

are data driven, and sometimes they can become handcuffed about making

decisions because of that. So in this case, the direct report lacked the confidence

to make a decision without checking in wi

th the leader. So I asked the leader to

circle back around with the direct report and use some affirming exercises and

validating the trust and getting the buy


in, that look this employee it is valid and

valuable to this organization.

And so what we're as

king is to give that direct report the confidence to make

their analysis and then empower them to make the decisions without counseling

the leader. That way the leader is more proactive and can use that time for

things that are going to contribute more to

the organization.



It makes both of them a little more effective and efficient

in their time moving forward, just by some simple evaluation of their preferred




Yeah, it certainly does. Michelle. One of the th

ings we use the

reports for as well as to establish benchmarks. And so we can look at and

establish an emotional intelligence benchmark for a participant. And then as

they participate in a learning program, we can come back later and have them

retake the a

ssessment and we can see if their emotional intelligence actually


Or we can focus on a particular behavior that we might need someone to get

better at. And so it's a way for us to measure learning effectiveness. And it's one

of the things that I

really love about having this as a data tool, is it helps us

drive whether or not our learning programs are actually delivering the results

that we're hoping for.



So I'm trying to help our listeners get a visual as to what

these typica

l measures look like. They're hearing the outcomes and they sound

great, these are all things we want. It's going to help with employee

engagement, it's going to help with confidence of the employees, it's going to

help with autonomy and drive and efficien

cy. But as an L and D leader, what do

these look like? And when they're delivering them to the workforce, what will

the workforce be seeing?



Yeah. What they actually see is a picture if you will, a graph,

that really shows them how their r

esults align and align to other benchmarks

such as the inner metrics norm or the success insights norm. And so it allows

them to see a comparison of where they're at and their development of a

particular behavior or a core attribute is we like to refer to


And then we've developed specific profiles for people when they think about

candidate assessment or assessing someone within your business for a new role.

So things such as sales, customer service, an ER nurse versus an elder care

nurse. Those are so

me of the things that there'll be able to see and be able to

compare and know is this person likely to be a good fit for the role that we

might be thinking them of fulfilling.



So the other thing we look at Michelle is the measurement of


tional intelligence. It includes seven categories, which includes

communication skills, interpersonal skills, personal motivators, self





management, social awareness and social skills. So overall 27 of the 78

core attributes we measure in th

e attribute index are included in the emotional

intelligence data.

So quick story, we measured the participant at an average of these seven scores

of 6.48. Now the people he worked with described him as very temperamental,

they walked around on eggshells

because they didn't know which version of him

would show up day to day. He describes himself as passionate, a hard worker,

dedicated, helping his team achieve their objectives. I'm sure you've seen this

story before, right?



Yes, absol




Exactly. So we focused on his emotional intelligence

development. In the first year, and this is typical, he wasn't committed and

nothing changed. Shocker, right. Unfortunately, because of this, he had several

key employees leave th

e organization, he decided that he needed to do

something different or more accurately his board of directors decided he needed

to do something different.

So when he made a commitment to improve his emotional intelligence, sought

feedback, coaching, he ac

cepted it. He made changes. And guess what? His

emotional intelligence improved.

Two 7.37. Right? So up from 6.17. That's a huge change. In the following year,

get this, he continued his focus and this January he tested at 8.55. So more

importantly, the co

mpany enjoyed their best year ever in total revenue and

profitability, they retained 94% of their employees with no key personnel losses

and met their goal for adding new employees.

This tells us leadership matters, and your ability to measure leadership c


attributes are table stakes in building the strategy to develop your people.



Wow. That's a great example. Thank you. So when it

comes to measuring learning effectiveness, do you use human capital data or

how do you recommend learn

ing leaders use HCD?



Yeah, we recommend that they use it in the entire employee

life cycle. So really measuring it in candidates, using it for onboarding to

develop their onboarding plans, using it for performance improvement as well

as su

ccession planning. And so really, if you think about that, the full employee

life cycle, it's about having this human capital data available to you, so you can

make the best decision possible when it comes to developing your people.

No one would ever try t

o manage any organization without financial data. Many

people are still managing their organizations without the human capital data that

they need.



It makes me think about something I remember. Of all

people I'm going to quote Bruce Le

e who said, "Knowing is not enough, we

must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do." And so when you think about

all of these different measurements that we have at hand, knowing about them

isn't enough. Being willing or interested, is not enough.

We mu

st actually use them and apply them in a way that helps us move the

business forward. one of the things that we like to do as part of our podcast, we

like to provide additional resources to our listeners who want to learn more

about what we've been talking

about and access some items today to help them

get going in the corporate learning measurement environment.

So, what would you recommend?



Well, what we would like to do is we'd like to offer a free

Disc Plus profile link for anybody that signs up and subscribes to the Human

Capital Lab podcast. And so what we'll offer a free Disc Plus link for up to 10

employees, for each person that signs


And if they simply email

Like and subscribe to the

Human Capital Podcast, we will send that over.



Wow. That is great. Thank you so much. Are there any

other resources?



Yeah, another resource th

at is instantly available to anyone is

our ebook about improving profitability for the organizations and the name of

the book that you heard is 50K in 50 minutes, and how to improve your

organization's performance. And so if they just simply email the


So that's

We'll send them a free copy of the book.



Wow. That is absolutely amazing. Thank you so much. I

am confident our listeners will be so excited. The Bellevue University Human

Capital Lab we

bsite also has resources such as our study about the state of

corporate learning measurement, how to measure your learning interventions,

and so many other white papers. And those can all be found at webpage.

So Jay and Dave, I really want to thank you for your time today, sharing your

insights and all this wonderful information about capturing effective human

capital analytics that can help us move our programs and learning forward.

Thank you so much for being

our guests. I want to thank our listeners today and

invite you to tune into our next Human Capital Lab Podcast and until then, take


Thank you for joining us on the Human Capital Lab Podcast, a Growth Network

Podcasts production in collaboration with

Bellevue University. For more about

Bellevue University's Human Capital Lab, head to

If you were inspired today, pass the link on to a colleague or friend. Stay tuned

for our next episode and until then, keep learning to unlock the lo




potential of human capital.


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