As learning leaders seek to earn and keep a seat at the strategy table, they must be able to accurately measure people effectiveness and process efficiencies. The ability to predict or forecast human performance requires an understanding of the WHAT, WHY, and HOW of human performance. For today's episode, Dave Gregory and Jay Delling, co-founders of Conatus3, will share stories of measuring people and intentionally changing behavior to improve results.
Big Takeaways:
This is a Growth Network Podcasts production.
HCL S1 E5
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Dave Gregory and Jay
Delling
[:Michelle:
Let's discover what lies at the intersection between
learning and the lives of the people who make business happen. I'm Dr.
Michelle Eckler and this is the Human Capital Lab podcast. As learning leaders
seek to earn and keep a seat at the strategy table,
they must be able to accurately
measure people effectiveness and process efficiencies. The ability to predict or
forecast human performance requires an understanding of the, what, why and
how of human performance.
For today's episode, Dave Gregory and Jay
Delling will share stories of
measuring people and intentionally changing behavior to improve results.
The Human Capital Lab's mission is to develop innovative and valuable
approaches to unlocking the human potential of human capital investment.
Conatus 3
was co
-
founded by Dave Gregory, a member and expert of the
Human Capital Lab. Based upon these same principles, Conatus 3 provides
access to tools necessary to capture the what, why, and how, of human
performance. If you can't measure it, you can't manage
it.
Jay Delling is a co
-
founder of Conatus 3. A 20 plus year veteran of the
healthcare industry, he managed pharmaceutical products, sales teams, and
clinical liaisons, and multiple states for both Novartis and Pfizer. Coupled with
his experience in home h
ealth and telle
-
health service options, Jay provides
Conatus 3 customers with a broad range of expertise and profit acceleration. A
co
-
author of the "50 K in 15 minutes", Jay helps clients identify the strategic
areas of their business to increase profits
quickly.
And one of my partners in crime, Dave Gregory, led organizational
performance as a global vice president of human resources with Alorica. He
was chief learning officer with Global Receivable Solutions and was the
director of performance enhanceme
nt with the West Business Solutions. During
Dave's 30 plus years in telecommunications and business process outsourcing,
his learning programs have been delivered to more than 1 million participants.
So Dave and Jay, thank you so much for joining us today
on this episode, I'm
really looking forward to our conversation and learning a little bit more about
what we can teach our fellow L and D collaborative partners.
[:Dave:
Thank you, Michelle. It's going to be fun to be with you
again.
[:J
ay:
Michelle, love being with you. Thanks for the opportunity to
hang out with you.
[:Michelle:
I really like to first get started hearing a little bit about
when you started looking into measuring learning effectiveness.
Dave, why don't we star
t with you?
[:Dave:
Yeah, Michelle, it's been something that I've been interested
in for a long time because I've always found that some people consistently
outperform other people. And I've been interested in why? Can we understand
what it is tha
t makes people more successful than others? And the question are
leaders born or made, really intrigued me.
And I wanted to find a way to measure and predict human performance.
[:Michelle:
Ooh. I'd like to learn more about that too. Jay, what abou
t
you?
[:Jay:
t really started in the early:golf coach at Newman University and NAI school. And I became very intrigued
about how to measure learning effectiveness. And I came across the great book
from Stephe
n Covey, The Seven Habits of Highly Successful People, and I was
particularly drawn to having number two, begin with the end in mind.
I'd always coach players and be willing to put the work and practice to
ximize their potential. So in:test the theory of "begin with
the end in mind", we had an excellent team that year and I challenged them to
establish an end goal for the year. We had an active discussion and the end goal
was to qualify and make the 36 hole cut in the national championsh
ip
tournament that was held at TPC at Sawgrass, which by the way is a very iconic
course in the United States.
So beginning with the end in mind, we moved backwards, filling in the steps
required to reach the goal. Part of the steps for me was upgrade our
schedule to
make it more competitive. The players then committed to developing their
games through dedication and practice, conditioning, those kinds of things. So
all the players were excited about begin with the end in mind, and guess what?
It worked. We
won the district 10 championship, which automatically qualified
us for the national tournament.
And so we made the 36 hole cut, finished the tournament in 17th place. We
performed in the top 5% of all schools that play golf. So that was my first
attempt a
t really measuring learning effectiveness and I've used the "begin with
the end in mind" in strategy in my leadership coaching ever since.
[:Michelle:
So when you think about all of the different types of
human capital data that are out there, wh
at specifically do you, Jay, start with?
What do you measure?
[:Jay:
So we really focus on measuring preferred behavior styles,
internal motivators, how people critically think, make decisions and solve
problems. And so, as you mentioned earlier,
we call this the, what why and how
of human performance. And really awareness and the ability to apply these
performance measures really increases our emotional intelligence and our
ability to contribute at a high level to the success of the orginization
[:Dave:
The science behind what we're using is called axiology and it
was developed by Robert Hartman, who was a German researcher and came to
the United States in the:evaluation.
And so we've
developed the use of both inner metrics profiles, as well as TTI
success insights, are the companies we use that provide that same science to us.
And it does measure across Disc, which many people are familiar with. This is
the axiology version of Disc ve
rsus some of the other versions that exist.
And then we look at values, as you talked about understanding why people do
the things they do, Disc is about preferred behavioral styles. And then we use
the attribute index and the attribute index is different
in that it's a cognitive
assessment versus the other two, which are non
-
cognitive, and we capture more
than 93 different data points based on the information someone provides in the
survey to us.
And then we can identify 27 different external and 27 differ
ent internal patterns
of thought along with about 20 external and 20 internal emotional biases that
people have. So the science behind this makes the combinations really
extraordinary.
And you've heard people talk about how human beings are unique and that
's
really what we have found. There's a lot of different instruments out there that
measure from a psychological perspective how people think. Find the one that
works for your organization, but make sure you're capturing this human capital
data in one fash
ion or another.
[:Michelle:
That's a lot of data points, Dave. And for some people that
might be a bit overwhelming, but I'm sure that there is a way to help them
capture and know what are the points that they need to pay attention to for what
the
y're trying to accomplish. I know one of the first questions that might come
to mind to some of our listeners is, what about these assessments and the data?
How are they validated, what are the steps you've taken to ensure that they are
valid?
[:D
ave:
Yeah. So there's a lot of research that's gone in to making sure
that they are valid. One of the standards that we have in the US is the equal
opportunity commission, so EOC. And the validation studies that the attribute
index specifically has gone throug
h is there's 28 individual about validation
studies that have been conducted over about the past 20 years.
And we've used 19 different examiners to examine the tool. And validation was
important to us to be documented and not only construct validity and co
ncurrent
validity and face validity, but also predictive validity. And so while ongoing
research continues to underscore the value of this particular tool, we're always
looking at the validity of the assessments.
And we're really confident now because we'v
e seen just in our own practice,
we've seen over a million different profiles have been used by our customers.
And so we have a chance to meet with people and review profiles with people,
what we consistently hear from them is it's a little scary how accur
ate they can
be.
[:Michelle:
Would you help us understand this a little bit more?
Would you share an example of how you use human capital data to help a
client?
[:Jay:
We always begin with gathering the human capital data by
having the participant complete the three assessments that we use. The disc, the
values, the attributes index. And actually just yesterday, a coaching client leader
I was talking to is really frustr
ated with a direct report needing validation on a
$96 billing air. So I brought up both of their Conatus three profiles. And so the
review showed that the leader was a very high D. So very decisive, very
demanding, can be demonstrative.
The direct report w
as a high C. So very cautious, very analytical. And the C's
are data driven, and sometimes they can become handcuffed about making
decisions because of that. So in this case, the direct report lacked the confidence
to make a decision without checking in wi
th the leader. So I asked the leader to
circle back around with the direct report and use some affirming exercises and
validating the trust and getting the buy
-
in, that look this employee it is valid and
valuable to this organization.
And so what we're as
king is to give that direct report the confidence to make
their analysis and then empower them to make the decisions without counseling
the leader. That way the leader is more proactive and can use that time for
things that are going to contribute more to
the organization.
[:Michelle:
It makes both of them a little more effective and efficient
in their time moving forward, just by some simple evaluation of their preferred
behaviors.
[:Dave:
Yeah, it certainly does. Michelle. One of the th
ings we use the
reports for as well as to establish benchmarks. And so we can look at and
establish an emotional intelligence benchmark for a participant. And then as
they participate in a learning program, we can come back later and have them
retake the a
ssessment and we can see if their emotional intelligence actually
improves.
Or we can focus on a particular behavior that we might need someone to get
better at. And so it's a way for us to measure learning effectiveness. And it's one
of the things that I
really love about having this as a data tool, is it helps us
drive whether or not our learning programs are actually delivering the results
that we're hoping for.
[:Michelle:
So I'm trying to help our listeners get a visual as to what
these typica
l measures look like. They're hearing the outcomes and they sound
great, these are all things we want. It's going to help with employee
engagement, it's going to help with confidence of the employees, it's going to
help with autonomy and drive and efficien
cy. But as an L and D leader, what do
these look like? And when they're delivering them to the workforce, what will
the workforce be seeing?
[:Dave:
Yeah. What they actually see is a picture if you will, a graph,
that really shows them how their r
esults align and align to other benchmarks
such as the inner metrics norm or the success insights norm. And so it allows
them to see a comparison of where they're at and their development of a
particular behavior or a core attribute is we like to refer to
them.
And then we've developed specific profiles for people when they think about
candidate assessment or assessing someone within your business for a new role.
So things such as sales, customer service, an ER nurse versus an elder care
nurse. Those are so
me of the things that there'll be able to see and be able to
compare and know is this person likely to be a good fit for the role that we
might be thinking them of fulfilling.
[:Jay:
So the other thing we look at Michelle is the measurement of
emo
tional intelligence. It includes seven categories, which includes
communication skills, interpersonal skills, personal motivators, self
-
awareness,
self
-
management, social awareness and social skills. So overall 27 of the 78
core attributes we measure in th
e attribute index are included in the emotional
intelligence data.
So quick story, we measured the participant at an average of these seven scores
of 6.48. Now the people he worked with described him as very temperamental,
they walked around on eggshells
because they didn't know which version of him
would show up day to day. He describes himself as passionate, a hard worker,
dedicated, helping his team achieve their objectives. I'm sure you've seen this
story before, right?
[:Michelle:
Yes, absol
utely.
[:Jay:
Exactly. So we focused on his emotional intelligence
development. In the first year, and this is typical, he wasn't committed and
nothing changed. Shocker, right. Unfortunately, because of this, he had several
key employees leave th
e organization, he decided that he needed to do
something different or more accurately his board of directors decided he needed
to do something different.
So when he made a commitment to improve his emotional intelligence, sought
feedback, coaching, he ac
cepted it. He made changes. And guess what? His
emotional intelligence improved.
Two 7.37. Right? So up from 6.17. That's a huge change. In the following year,
get this, he continued his focus and this January he tested at 8.55. So more
importantly, the co
mpany enjoyed their best year ever in total revenue and
profitability, they retained 94% of their employees with no key personnel losses
and met their goal for adding new employees.
This tells us leadership matters, and your ability to measure leadership c
ore
attributes are table stakes in building the strategy to develop your people.
[:Michelle:
Wow. That's a great example. Thank you. So when it
comes to measuring learning effectiveness, do you use human capital data or
how do you recommend learn
ing leaders use HCD?
[:Dave:
Yeah, we recommend that they use it in the entire employee
life cycle. So really measuring it in candidates, using it for onboarding to
develop their onboarding plans, using it for performance improvement as well
as su
ccession planning. And so really, if you think about that, the full employee
life cycle, it's about having this human capital data available to you, so you can
make the best decision possible when it comes to developing your people.
No one would ever try t
o manage any organization without financial data. Many
people are still managing their organizations without the human capital data that
they need.
[:Michelle:
It makes me think about something I remember. Of all
people I'm going to quote Bruce Le
e who said, "Knowing is not enough, we
must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do." And so when you think about
all of these different measurements that we have at hand, knowing about them
isn't enough. Being willing or interested, is not enough.
We mu
st actually use them and apply them in a way that helps us move the
business forward. one of the things that we like to do as part of our podcast, we
like to provide additional resources to our listeners who want to learn more
about what we've been talking
about and access some items today to help them
get going in the corporate learning measurement environment.
So, what would you recommend?
[:Dave:
Well, what we would like to do is we'd like to offer a free
Disc Plus profile link for anybody that signs up and subscribes to the Human
Capital Lab podcast. And so what we'll offer a free Disc Plus link for up to 10
employees, for each person that signs
up.
And if they simply email
hclpod@conatus3.com.
Like and subscribe to the
Human Capital Podcast, we will send that over.
[:Michelle:
Wow. That is great. Thank you so much. Are there any
other resources?
[:Dave:
Yeah, another resource th
at is instantly available to anyone is
our ebook about improving profitability for the organizations and the name of
the book that you heard is 50K in 50 minutes, and how to improve your
organization's performance. And so if they just simply email the
50kt
eamconatus3.com.
So that's
50kteam@conatus3.com.
We'll send them a free copy of the book.
[:Michelle:
Wow. That is absolutely amazing. Thank you so much. I
am confident our listeners will be so excited. The Bellevue University Human
Capital Lab we
bsite also has resources such as our study about the state of
corporate learning measurement, how to measure your learning interventions,
and so many other white papers. And those can all be found at
thehumancapitallab.org webpage.
So Jay and Dave, I really want to thank you for your time today, sharing your
insights and all this wonderful information about capturing effective human
capital analytics that can help us move our programs and learning forward.
Thank you so much for being
our guests. I want to thank our listeners today and
invite you to tune into our next Human Capital Lab Podcast and until then, take
care.
Thank you for joining us on the Human Capital Lab Podcast, a Growth Network
Podcasts production in collaboration with
Bellevue University. For more about
Bellevue University's Human Capital Lab, head to humancapitallab.org.
If you were inspired today, pass the link on to a colleague or friend. Stay tuned
for our next episode and until then, keep learning to unlock the lo
ng
-
term
potential of human capital.