Overcoming Emotional Abuse

S1E7

In this episode of the Mile Marker Mindset Podcast, host Mark Keith welcomes back Julie Stephens for an engaging conversation on how past experiences can refine us rather than define us. They explore Julie's career transition from divorce law, emotional abuse, the importance of accountability, and how unresolved conflict affects families. Julie shares personal insights and practical tips on de-escalating conflicts, understanding relationships better, and addressing emotional abuse's physical impacts. This episode also touches on the significance of support, vulnerability, and self-reflection in relationships. Tune in to learn about setting healthy boundaries, recognizing red flags, and steering clear of common pitfalls in relationships.

00:00 Introduction to the Mile Marker Mindset Podcast

00:24 Welcoming Back Julie Stephens

01:39 Discussing Emotional Abuse

06:07 Accountability, Enablement, and Entitlement

12:39 The Importance of Self-Reflection and Growth

21:56 Navigating Relationship Conflicts

28:31 Case Building and Its Impact on Families

33:32 Understanding Narcissistic Behaviors

36:04 Delayed Realizations Post-Divorce

37:14 Identifying Red Flags Early

37:51 The Impact of Childhood Trauma

39:06 The Importance of Therapy Tools

39:37 Taking Responsibility for Your Life

40:16 Refining vs. Defining by Your Past

42:55 Unresolved Conflict in Divorce

43:29 Financial Abuse in Divorce

45:27 Legacy and Parenting Post-Divorce

47:29 Elderly Divorce and Compassion

49:51 The Importance of True Self in Relationships

55:30 The Role of Social Media in Relationships

01:04:38 Micro Cheating and Its Impact

01:06:40 Navigating Relationship Boundaries

01:08:23 Practical Tips for Relationship Challenges

01:11:31 The Importance of Self-Work and Seeking the Right Advice

01:19:05 Conflict Resolution Strategies

01:31:33 Legal Perspectives on Conflict Resolution

01:37:01

01:37:44 The Physical Impact of Emotional Abuse

01:39:25 Conclusion and Next Steps

Follow Julie @mamajules_pov on TikTok! Also follow the show on all socials @MileMarkerMindset and on www.milemarkermindset.com

The dialogue revolves around the profound assertion that one's past does not define them but rather refines their character and future interactions. The hosts engage in a thoughtful examination of emotional abuse, likening it to other forms of abuse, and highlighting the insidious nature of such experiences. Emotional abusers often manipulate their victims into questioning their feelings and realities, which can lead to a cycle of self-doubt and confusion. The conversation emphasizes the importance of recognizing these patterns, not just for victims but also for abusers, who may benefit from understanding the impact of their behavior. The discussion encourages listeners to reflect on their pasts, not as shackles, but as opportunities for growth and refinement. By shifting one's mindset, individuals can transform their narratives and empower their paths forward.

Takeaways:

• The past does not define an individual; rather, it serves to refine one's character and resilience over time.
• Emotional abuse can manifest in subtle ways, influencing one's self-perception and mental well-being, which necessitates awareness and proactive healing.
• Recognizing and addressing emotional abuse requires the victim to assert boundaries and understand their own role in the relationship dynamics.
• Effective communication is paramount; utilizing clarifying questions can prevent misunderstandings and foster healthier interactions in relationships.

They say your past defines you.

That's a lie.

Your past doesn't define you.

It refines you.

Welcome to the Mile Marker Mindset Podcast, where real stories meet real change.

Hosted by Mark Keith, a voice forged by the miles and refined by the mindset.

Shift your mindset, Shift your life.

Let's go to work.

Hey, welcome back.

This is the Mile Marker Mindset podcast.

As always, I'm your host, Mark Keith.

With me again is my guest Julie Stevens.

I had her on a couple episodes ago to talk a bit about her career and her transition to not being a divorce lawyer anymore.

We had a really good talk.

This is the second of several episodes we'll be doing.

Julie, good morning.

Good morning.

How are you?

Not too bad.

Just enjoying living down here in the South.

You got a nice warm day today in South Carolina.

How's the weather down there in Florida?

Same.

It's 85 and sunny.

Florida is always like that.

Well, it is Florida to either that or raining, right?

A little bit.

This year has been a good year for us.

I'm taking it good.

Yeah.

It's a bit cool up here recently, but today it's quite warm.

It's nice.

And get out in the grill later.

It's going to be a good time.

That's good.

The joke around here was Yesterday it was 74.

That was cold for me.

I wore pants.

It's funny because we're all from the Midwest where it's really cold and 50s is nothing.

People down here are wearing winter jackets and hats and scarves and all kinds of stuff.

And we're just here T shirts and shorts.

It's so funny, right?

Living in the south, being from the Midwest.

But anyway, I digress.

Let's dive on in.

If you recall our last conversation, you mentioned something really important that we didn't quite get to on the air.

Do you remember what that was?

Yes, I do.

One thing that I see often is that dealing with emotional abuse, if you have to suffer that from somebody else, I think that it's very common for the recipient of being emotionally abused that the abuser will say things like, I was good this afternoon, but they forget that they may have emotionally abused all day long.

And I really take issue with that personally because I really liken emotional abuse to every kind of other abuse out there.

But when you look at it from a different metaphor, I think it helps people who emotionally abuse people understand their actions a little bit better.

What I mean by that is if somebody was actually a drug addict or they were an alcoholic and now they're in recovery and if you're having dinner with them and they pour themselves a shot of whiskey or martini at dinner and, and you know they're trying to be sober in recovery, you would look at them, you'd say, what are you doing?

You're drinking.

They would never look at you seriously and say, I didn't drink all morning and afternoon.

The same thing goes with abuse is that a lot of times the abuser will say, why are you still upset?

Why are you still mad?

I was good during dinner.

And they forget how they may have isolated them.

They may have said something that hurt their feelings.

They may have gaslit them all day long.

And the abuser tries to deflect and they try to stay.

It's not that bad because I'm being nice now.

You should be amazing recipient of my joke and you should be all happy with me right now.

And they don't realize the lingering effects of that.

And that's why I look at emotional abuse.

I think metaphors can really help people who are abusing to understand their behavior a little bit better.

That's really interesting.

I think that's something not a lot of people think of in terms of I was good the rest of the day.

It's kind of like a child.

I've been good all day, so that entitles me.

And there's the word entitled.

That's a big one.

A lot of people feel entitled because there's no accountability.

Lack of one, I think leads to the other.

But exactly.

You have a situation, go ahead.

Sorry.

The deflection is such an important part of the situation.

I think that if you're going to continue to deflect, then you're never taking that accountability that you talk about.

And it really, what it does is it makes the other person question themselves even more.

It's a way of gaslighting without saying too much.

You can gaslight just through your behaviors too.

And I think that's important for everybody on both sides of that coin to seal that.

And then that also eventually not only you get the entitlement and lack of accountability, but also leads to lack of accountability, leads to obviously enabling and other sorts of negative behaviors, which again, it's important to not let people get away with that kind of behavior and hold them accountable and be, yeah, you may have been good all day, but that doesn't justify or make excuses for you being a jerk right now.

Or example you use where you're, you didn't drink all day, but you're recovering alcoholic.

That's right.

And the enabling, I think is a very important topic because a lot of people who have to suffer the emotional abuse, I think a lot of times that they are in that modality where they are truly a victim, but they victimize themselves even further by enabling the situation.

I think a lot of people don't realize that they have some responsibility to take care of themselves too.

They can't just look at life saying, because you're abusing me, therefore everything is on you to stop abusing me.

A lot of times the victim of the situation will enable the situation because they don't call it out, because they're not assertive, because they don't have a healthy boundary.

And they may say to that person who's having that martini, you know what?

You deserve a martini.

It's been a hard day for you.

Or they don't bring it out, why are you having a martini?

Whatever the circumstance may be, and you're actually enabling then that behavior to.

It's not making excuse for the person who's abusing, but you're not doing anything on your end to help stop the situation, whether you're trying to resolve it by saying, this isn't going to work for me and here's a boundary, let's talk about what you're doing or.

Or eventually, if that doesn't work, just getting up and walking out the door permanently.

Because the person's never going to change.

But just sitting there and taking it over and over again and not doing something about it, you are enabling it.

It's not pointing the finger at you, but you have to recognize that there's a role in this by you as well.

Sure.

Do you think there's a relationship between accountability, enablement and entitlement?

The way I see it, where lack of accountability leads to you enabling someone to do something, then they become entitled and thinking it's okay because then you hold them accountable and it goes in the circle.

Would you agree with.

That's right.

Yeah.

And once you actually have the guts to hold somebody accountable for something that's been damaging you, the other person literally is like, what are you talking about?

Because they've been doing this all along and they really never thought it was a bad thing.

And once you finally have the guts to stand up to it, that is a whole different situation possibility.

Because the person who is a gaslighter or maybe narcissistic, they're what is going on?

Their world is getting rocked because nobody ever holds them accountable.

People just put up with a narcissist and they don't say, I can't be around you anymore.

You're unhealthy for me, they put up with it.

A lot of people put up with narcissists.

And then when you have that boundary now, you're the bad person, you're the wrong one because you've chosen not to enable anymore.

And that could be very difficult.

I truly believe that if you have hit the wall and you're like, I can't do this anymore, I want to hold this person accountable.

I want to show them I have a healthy boundary and I want to resolve this kind of situation.

In my opinion, you should do a lot of research and a lot of self help or go to therapists and understand how to bring that about and how to stay strong.

Because once you open up that door, oftentimes that narcissist or that gaslighter, then they can become even more damaging to you because you're taking control away from them that they've always had over you.

And ever want to lose that control, you should prepare yourself on how to do it in a proper manner.

That's true narcissism.

One of the biggest parts of it is control.

You're absolutely right on that front.

Also, when people think of accountability, it's usually a negative connotation to it, which it can certainly.

I also think it has to do with support.

For example, if you're trying to hold your partner accountable for trying to recover from being an alcoholic, holding them accountable is also being supportive.

You're not going to be drinking, you're not going to be doing things that would trigger them.

I hate that word, triggering.

But it's relevant here where it triggers them to want to have a drink.

Put them in a situation where they used to drink.

You may have to sacrifice a bit also to hold them accountable by finding different ways to be supportive.

A lot of people don't say that, Mark.

I'm so glad you brought that up, actually.

That is an excellent point.

Just to bring it to current events, I just watched the movie two days ago, the Smashing Machine with Dwayne Johnson.

There was a situation where he was addicted to opiates and he is trying to get clean finally, because the girlfriend is the one who's saying, you can't do this anymore, you have to get clean.

So he gets clean, he goes to rehab and he tries really hard to stay clean.

And within a week, I think it is of him coming back from rehab, she's out having margaritas, getting drunk with her girlfriend, and she's so hungover that she sleeps in all day while he's making his protein drink because obviously he's in the fitness and so forth, taking Tylenol like candy because she's trying to prevent a hangover from happening.

And there are many scenes in that movie about how she is not supporting him.

He's like, how hard is this for me?

I was addicted to opiates.

He was shooting up and that's a very hard recovery as you could imagine.

And she's out partying and she never saw it.

She never saw her issue with the situation and thought that he was the one who was being a big baby about the whole thing.

And so that's bring it to a relationship without the drugs or the alcohol and the emotional abuse.

And it's the exact same thing.

If somebody is trying their hardest and they were good for eight hours and they have a slip up and they do something that's not, they're not self regulating or they do something emotionally abusive to you and you're going to take a step back on occasion.

It's not an overnight switch that you can flip on something like this.

And if you just immediately attack the person, it's not going to help the situation at all.

If you are really concerned that they slept up, then you just calmly say, hey, I know there's going to be slip ups.

And in my opinion, I think this was a slip up and I'm comfortable right now.

Do you want to talk about what I'm experiencing or do you need some time to think about it yourself?

And we can come back to this in an hour or so.

You need to have that kind of regulation kind of a talk and deal with it.

And I'm not saying that you don't get to experience the pain of being gaslit again, you do.

But you also need to understand that if you really want to resolve and keep this relationship intact, then you have to understand that your responses can actually hurt the situation as well.

That's interesting because it's also how you react to it.

And if you come off in a way where that puts the other person on the defensive, what's their standard?

What's their default?

Go to whatever the thing is.

You also have to in some ways work on yourself while you're helping the other person because you also have to do better not to say it's.

If you're with somebody and they're abusive, it's not your responsibility to control their feelings or theirs to control yours.

Responsible for each other, however that works.

But you do need to be Responsible for your own actions.

And don't put the couple in a situation that's going to lead to that kind of event, whatever the event is.

That's exactly right.

It's good stuff.

Common too.

All too common, unfortunately.

Exactly.

And I'm glad that we're talking about this openly because I think a lot of times it when people want to look at reels for advice or even they go to therapy many times that outside source that they're looking for assistance is just blame game on the person that's hurting you.

And it's very rare to make to hear something look inside yourself.

It's very rare.

I'm glad we're talking about this lens.

Deflect, deflection or you pass the bug, pass the blame.

No, take accountability for your own stuff.

That's the whole point of the mile marker mindset is I've been through a lot of stuff.

I walk through it so I can help other people get through it.

Because I learned a lot about myself and I always am.

We're always learning about ourselves.

None of us are perfect here.

So it's always trying to learn.

But be willing to learn and be willing to look in the mirror and say, I need to change.

Things in my life right now are just not good.

I'm just a jerk, whatever the case, or I need to stop drinking or have that honest reflection.

In fact, I talked a lot about that in the first couple episodes and that's.

It's really important to have the self reflection.

And also if your partner.

This is part of being supportive.

Your partner says, by the way, I've noticed you always have a drink in your hand or it hurts me again, use those I feel statements.

We talk about it in the conflict book.

We'll get to probably later.

But I feel hurt because you're always blaming me for things and have that tough talk.

Because if you don't have that tough talk in a respectful and loving way, it's never going to get better.

And it's not going to be easy.

It's not supposed to be easy because change is difficult.

It takes time and it takes a lot of work.

That's right.

And I want to.

You brought up something that I don't overlook is that if you do that self talk and you can maybe you go to your own therapist and you're trying to grow and be a better person individually, what you're thinking was going to help my relationship, whether it's an intimate one or a friend or any kind of a family member.

The thing to remember Though too, and you need to be prepared for is that sometimes when you start growing and changing or acknowledging your own fault in something or you account for something on your own that other people are not going to be always receptive to, that when you start growing, some people who are doing the bullying that you never had an issue with before, it could be a complete outside person and they see you speaking differently or interacting differently or being accountable.

Sometimes they think you're being facetious or you're playing the victim or that you're doing all these things.

No, I'm actually growing and I'm validating you.

I'm learning how to do this.

But other people who haven't worked on themselves, they're not willing to see your growth as a positive thing because maybe showing some things that they don't like about themselves that could be very disconcerting to interact with somebody that I love, not accepting you being a healthy person because they're used to maybe you being unhealthy and it things change that dramatically, that could be hurtful.

Yep, that's true.

And as one person grows, the couple might grow apart.

That's right.

That has to be okay sometimes because you know better than most that sometimes it just doesn't work out and for whatever reason and you might be better off splitting ways.

That's not ideal.

Certainly the best way to do it is to reconcile.

I'm sure even as retired family lawyer would agree, reconciliation is always the best option.

Exactly.

Anyway, absent physical abuse.

Absolutely.

I think I mentioned last time at the podcast I had said I will normally ask people, have you thought about reconciling and can I assist with that before we just run to the court and file, or is it too late?

I don't talk them into it, but I certainly want to make sure they understand it's an option.

And I would even tell people, even after we file and it's still an option.

Many people think that once you file, you can't reconcile that.

We can't dismiss the case or we can't put the case on hold with the court and we can actually, we even have this quasi.

In Indiana, where I practice, it doesn't really exist, but the courts know what you're talking about when you say judge, we want to put this on the reconciliation docket.

And the judge knows that buzzword means we're just going to set it for status six, nine months down the road.

We're not going to push discovery, we're not going to push hearing dates.

We're just going to let Them deal with their own thing, and then if it doesn't work out, you can always get back to the court system if you need to.

Yeah, we always let them know.

It's always an action.

Did you have a lot of marriages that were reconciled, that were saved?

I did.

I never kept track of how many, but I would say on average, every year of my practice.

I don't recall it happening too much when I worked in a law firm for 15 years.

But when I was on my own for 11 years, I definitely saw at least one or two a year would reconcile.

And the way they would reconcile would either be after the divorce was filed and they end up getting back together again.

We would wait about a year, and then we would dismiss the cause of action.

I had some of those, unfortunately, though, seek my services out again a couple years later.

Say, we tried, but it didn't work out, but at least you really tried, which that's a success, too.

The trying is success, even if it fails.

Does that make sense?

And because I think some people throw in the towel way too early, and then other people actually would get back together after their divorce was complete, and they would still reconcile.

That door doesn't always have to be closed forever.

There's always a chance of getting back together again.

Just because you're divorced doesn't mean you can't say, I'm still.

I still love you, actually.

Can we try this again?

There's no rules.

There's a Juliasm that comes to mind here where a great woman once told us that you have to acknowledge the instance of divorce in a marriage, that you can know how to prevent it.

That's right.

And then it's something that stuck with us here.

Since you told Megan that, and it's true, you have to know it's an option.

You can work backwards to prevent it.

And what I always find a little crazy is that many of us have divorce in our immediate family, and yet when we get with somebody new, we act.

It can never happen.

It's very illogical.

And a lot of times people say, I just want to be happy and just be in love.

That's great, but we have to be logical, too.

That puppy dog feeling does wear off eventually, and you figure out what's left.

Yep.

Yep.

As far as change, though, one of the things I've learned, too, is that you're not going to change until your desire to change is greater than your desire to remain the same.

And that's in healthy eating, drinking, your relationships.

If you don't see there's a problem, you aren't going to change that.

Change has to be for yourself, not anybody else.

It can have a positive benefit on your relationship or your friendship or with your children or your dog or your workplace, whatever the case is.

But if that change isn't just to start with for yourself, and I think that has to be for selfish reasons to start with.

Because if it's not, you eventually always default to the person that you were.

If it's not true, intrinsic, deep down change, it's just simply not going to last.

That's why many couples are in this cycle.

It really is almost the same fight every single time.

It could start from a different subject, but it really is the same fight because you fall into those patterns.

And you're right.

If you don't take a step back and say, I'm going to change and grow.

That part could even just be, I'm going to learn how to communicate differently.

I don't like saying fight fair because everything doesn't be a fight.

That's a pet peeve of mine.

Just because I bring something up, fight.

This bothered me when this happened.

And the person says, I don't want to fight.

No, actually what you don't want to do is you don't want to validate me, you don't want to communicate with me, and you don't really want to get to know me.

You don't really want to know me.

That's what you're saying when you say I don't want to fight.

It's not a fight.

I'm just communicating with you.

But because you have that default, it's really difficult.

Words matter.

That's something I've had to learn.

I was laughing because I say that sometimes to Megan.

I don't mean it from a negative, non validating way.

Most of the time it's more, I might mean disagreement, I might mean conflict.

I might mean just a spat, not necessarily a fight.

It's just the first word that comes to my mind, which probably isn't a good thing.

I'm trying to work on not using that word as much because it doesn't have to be a quote, fight.

It's usually just a conflict or disagreement about something we have to work out.

But I've noticed with Megan, once I say the word fight, even if it's not that she'll give me one if I want one.

And of course, why would I want one?

But it's one of those things where words matter.

They do.

And also, Mark, it's important to understand that My significant other does that, too.

If I bring up something he's.

We're having a good day now you want to fight?

No, nobody wants to fight.

I don't want to fight.

I just want to bring up something that just happened three minutes ago.

Yeah, we had a great day, but three months ago, something happened and I can't shake it.

So I would like to talk about it.

And that's the proper way to think about it.

But there are times, though, if somebody says to me, oh, so you in a fight using that trigger word?

I immediately go into in my head.

You never listen to me.

It's not a fight.

And I started getting all ramped up on the word and no longer on the one issue that I wanted to talk about.

We have these side fights when we could have just been talking about the one thing.

And again, that's recognizing.

Wait a minute.

They just used the wrong word.

Just say, that's not the word that we should be talking about.

Let's still focus on what I brought up.

And I've been bringing up side fights a lot.

We're doing a side fight.

We're doing a side fight.

There's no room for side fights.

So you have to be really cognizant of that, because if you're not, you will go down.

Lawyers call them slippery slopes.

If you bring up, we will go down slippery slopes, and an hour later you go, what were we even talking about an hour ago?

And we're all ramped up and we're sweaty and we're not liking each other.

What did we do?

That has no place in life or love?

Nothing got accomplished, except for now, I don't like you and I don't want to hug you right now.

It boggles the mind.

But a lot of people don't look at it that way.

And I think if everybody would just look at it that way, there'd be a lot less negative conflict in relationships.

You mentioned side fights, and that's a good thing to bring up, too, because what happens when tempers flare up?

Again, this is why we're working on that conflict book, to try and mitigate some of this.

But like you said, fighting fairly in a matter of speaking.

Don't go yelling at somebody, don't go cussing them out.

Because then, once again, what are you fighting about?

Oh, you called me this and that word, and you're screaming at me and throwing stuff or whatever kind of craziness is going on, carrying on, stop.

Take a pause, take a beat.

Walk away from the situation.

Hang up the phone.

Don't hang up on somebody.

Just say, hey, I need to cool off.

Give me a half hour.

I'll call you back.

Whatever the case is, don't let it elevate to that point.

De escalate.

Don't elevate.

I think it's important to remind somebody that I'm being very vulnerable and it's taking a lot of guts for me to bring this up.

And please do not trample on my vulnerability.

And I would ask for you to be vulnerable with me as well.

I think there is a lack of vulnerability in a lot of relationships, and I think that's why you get on side fights, and I think that's why you cycle the same fight over and over again.

Because I don't think people find vulnerability as precious as it really is, because that's your true self, no matter how scary it is.

It's a precious thing to be vulnerable in a relationship.

And I think both people need to do that and welcome it, and I think it can bring you closer.

I'm going off on a side note here, but I've started something recently with my significant other where I found these reels on Instagram and they're from all different sources.

I can't point to one, but there are five to 15 questions to ask your partner.

And we'll take turns going.

We've only done it twice so far, and some are really deep and some are just cute and flirty and fun.

And we're careful.

We're not going to bring up a deep one an hour before we're going to go out and have a date?

That doesn't make any sense.

Let's do a flirty one two hours before we go out.

I haven't done this one yet with him, but I can remember one of the questions are, what was one outfit that I wore on a date where you said, wow, you know?

And then you make a mental note of that.

He liked when I wore my hair this way or he liked when I did that.

I'm going to put that aside and remember it.

So then when I go out on a date two weeks from now, I'm going to dress like that for you.

And that shows him.

She listened to me.

She knows what I like, and it's okay.

People think, I'm not going to give in.

I'm me, I'm my own person.

No, you're in a relationship.

There's nothing wrong with making the other person happy and doing something as long as it's a healthy thing.

And there's no reason why you say, he liked that sweater.

I'm going to wear it again.

Or he likes it when my hair is straight versus curly.

I'm going to wear a straight.

Tonight we're learning how to be more vulnerable with each other and being real honest and just show you the net result after the first time we did that and we did a hard one first.

Deep, really digging and we sat crisscross applesauce and little kids and we just face to face and we talked to each other.

And he looked at me after.

After three years and he said, I've never felt closer to you.

I. I get tingles just hearing that when I say it out loud to myself.

And that's something that we said we're going to do a couple times a week from here on out.

Because you've learned about each other that way.

Yeah, it's awesome.

We mentioned vulnerability.

And guys, I'm talking to you here.

Yes, you have feelings.

You don't have to have feelings in public, but your wife, your girlfriend, your kids, they know you have emotions and have feelings.

Even if just you show them to your spouse.

That's okay.

You still have them.

You still need to be vulnerable at some point to have a good relationship.

You can act all macho and tough all you want, but you still have feelings.

Just the way it is.

Yeah.

A lot of women, we have bunko night and we have white night.

We have girls weekends and we practice sharing emotions.

We text each other, not, hey, what are you doing?

We text each other.

I had a bad day today.

I had a bad week this weekend.

I called my best friend.

She was there for me three days in a row and I was vulnerable with her.

If she agreed with me, she told me, and if she didn't, she told me that too.

But a lot of men don't do that yet.

They may golf, but are they vulnerable on the golf course or are they focused on their golf game and they're talking about jokes and things?

I'm sure they're vulnerable on the golf course where women.

We may go on a wine weekend and we sit and we talk and I think it's more acceptable for us to be vulnerable.

But I think men need to learn to find resources and support groups, talk with each other.

But I agree with you.

I think generally men don't do that.

I can tell you most conversation men amongst men is you're talking trash.

There's a lot of smack talk going on.

That's most of it, not all of it, but that's a Good.

Majority of it.

Sometimes you get down in the weeds, depending on who it is.

I know some people I can get deeper with, but generally when this guy is amongst guys, you're.

I don't think surface level, but you're mostly talking trash.

Right.

And if I could add something to that, too, I agree with you that a guy will have a ride or die best friend.

If they're having a bad day, they can call that person up and talk to them.

And that's fantastic.

But the thing that I think that women are good at is that we even do that on good days.

We can talk to each other about good things, too.

We can have a regular day.

We could be on a girls weekend and talk about the things that we like in our life and things we don't like.

You can talk about girlfriends and we can talk about anything.

And it's not filling the air because we practice at it.

I think that men should talk about good things in their life, too.

Not when they're down and out.

Then it's easier to cross that bridge when you need it.

Or complaining about your wife or about work.

I hate to say it, but stereotypes do come from.

They're based on truth.

Right.

Talk about deeper stuff.

It's okay.

And also be willing to talk to your spouse.

Your spouse should be your best friend.

And if you can't tell your spouse anything, then I think you really got to figure out what's going on in your own relationship because that's the one person in the world you should be able to tell anything to.

Right?

Yeah.

They should have your back.

And that's where.

If I could circle back to those questions, that's a really good way to practice talking to your spouse.

When you bring it up, when things are at peace, there's no conflict happening and it's just really getting to know each other.

And that's really good practice, for sure.

Yeah, we do some of those, too.

Megan likes to send them to me and Instagram or whatever.

Yeah.

Fun.

Yep.

One thing that I think pops up in all this is relationship patterns.

What's one pattern?

Or maybe a case that you've encountered that really opened your eyes to some of the really hard truths of relationships.

One comes to mind.

And obviously almost every case is conflictual.

It's rare to have two people who just say, we just fell in love and we already have our agreement, how we're dividing everything and we're going to share the kids freely.

We're actually going to live on the same block and the kids can go Back and forth.

When that happens, I literally go, who are you?

And I am in love with you.

That's amazing.

But most are, 99% are very conflictual.

But one of the hardest cases is actually one of the most recent ones.

Right before I retired, it went on for a few years and I started out really enjoying my clients.

There was a lot of evidence showing that it was the other side.

We went to trial many times to get divorced and in post decree and I always believed my client and I always took his side.

The other side was she was miserable, miserable person.

And I always felt bad for the kids and him and trying to get him shared custody was always a battle with her.

But then something switched and he could not get out of the conflict.

And that's the one thing about contested divorces, is that you are used to being conflictual because that's why we're going to court, because we can't agree on anything.

And you get used to being cross examined.

You get used to watching your spouse get cross examined.

You get used to case building.

It's a buzzword and I hate the case building after a while because yes, I need a case build to win my trial.

But then the husband or the wife, they get in the habit of case building and all their focuses on is taking screenshots videotaping their children reacting to what the other parent did because they're trying to build a case just in case I have to go to court in the future, there could be nothing pending and then something will blow up and they'll come to me and they'll say, I have a year's worth of videos of my kids or I have 300 text messages to show you you haven't been living your life, you haven't been a parent.

They literally can't get out of that cycle of case building and conflict.

And that's all that they do.

And it's really sad because I have seen these videos of children.

This one comes to mind is that he had gotten his permit.

He's in the driver's seat driving this truck and the mom is by him in the passenger seat and she has the camera on.

And he even knows the camera is on because she's in his face and she's, you know when dad said this and when dad sends you that text message and dad and he's crying, he just got his permit, he's driving a car that's extremely dangerous, if you could imagine.

And she's just cross examining her own kid and even bring up the attorney's name Julie this and Julie that.

And I just sat there and I'm like, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God.

And the attorney sent that to me, thinking that this was proper and okay.

And she's going to use this in court.

And I go, I feel sad for both of you.

I feel sad that you don't tell your client not to do this.

I feel sad for this child.

I just get demoralized and I just want to go home.

I don't even want to work on any other case.

Lawyers don't have feelings that in my opinion, and they just encourage their clients to case build instead of being healthy for these kids.

It makes me sad.

And it's one of the reasons why I had to get out too.

I just couldn't take it anymore.

I can see that being really hard on your psyche.

Yeah, yeah, it sure is.

Because you still have to work, you still have to be a parent.

But if you put all your focus on the case building, then who's going to be there for your kids?

That's right.

And that's the thing, is they're not there for the kids at all.

They're just not.

I would sit there with my client if they would do something that.

And I would say, I feel very uncomfortable.

I don't want to use this in court.

I think the judge is going to think that you're just as bad as mom if I bring this to the court's attention.

And they don't want to hear that because they think they're all right and your mom is a jerk.

I go, I'm sorry that you are showing the same behaviors and mom is by wanting me to show this in court.

And I really can't stand by it.

I go, I want you to win if I'm doing this.

Two factor why the court's going to not like us if we bring this out based upon my years of experience.

Number two, what is your kid going to say when he knows that you did this?

Because he's going to find out because mom's going to run home and tell him because she's just as bad.

And what are you really trying to accomplish here?

Getting back at mom or raising a beautiful family apart from mom?

And this client would literally tell me, I, I want to get her, I want to nail her to the wall.

And he was saying this to me where after a point I said, I can no longer be your lawyer.

And that's where you talk about when you set a healthy boundary and the other person, they lose control and he exploded on me.

And I realized that he actually was a narcissist as well.

And he was breadcrumbing me in an intimate relationship because he would send me these emails.

And you're such an amazing attorney.

I don't know what I would do without you.

You're my big sister.

I'm just, oh, what a nice compliment.

Because you don't get a lot of compliments.

And oh, my God, I was breadcrumbed.

I can't believe this.

This is a boyfriend, girlfriend relationship, and you kind of get sucked into it.

And it happened professionally, too.

It's really sad.

Can you define breadcrumbed?

Yes, yes.

Breadcrumb goes with love bombing was in the beginning of a relationship.

And usually people who do it are narcissists.

And what they do is that they kind of just over love you.

It's all these compliments.

They want to be monogamous after knowing you for a month already.

They just want all of your time.

They just want to take you out, spend money on you, just make you feel you're just the most loved person in the world.

And the saying goes is that, I don't know how this happens, but many narcissists seem to attract, like a magnet people who their own child trauma that they had to be the parent in their own home.

They didn't get love and attention as a child.

And that love bombing works on them.

And so they find each other, and you go, oh, my God, no one's ever loved me like this before.

I never felt like this.

This is the first time in my life.

This is fantastic.

So you get sucked into it, and as soon as you say, you're the one for me, then they flip on you and the love bombing stops.

Then they realize, oh, now she's getting mad.

So I'll breadcrumb her.

I'll just put a little bit of crumbs out there.

I won't give her the whole slice of bread, just little crumbs so she knows I'm still interested in you.

You get a little bit.

It's like drugs.

You get a little bit that dopamine hits.

Okay, I got a little bit.

He still likes me.

And then something bad happens.

And then you're like, oh, my God, I'm going to cry.

I can't.

And he doesn't want to see you cry.

So it gives you a little less of a breadcrumb, but it's still a little something there.

And it literally is like, you got to keep taking more and more drugs to get the high when you an IV kind of a drug user.

It's the exact same thing.

It feeds your dopamine and it changes your entire brain chemistry.

And he loves me because he said he'll do something for me even though he was mean to me for two weeks.

It's a psychological warfare on you is literally what it is.

Yeah, it sounds bad.

Yeah.

Especially coming from a client.

I could see that being a problem.

Especially once you realize that you're like, whoa, wait a minute.

Yeah, I was me like, what just happened here?

I'm not going to put up with this anymore.

I'm going to fire you.

I can't be your lawyer anymore.

Are most people typically receptive when you have a client and you notice some narcissistic emotional abuse tendencies and you're like, hey, I've noticed that you have some of these traits similar to yours significant other.

Maybe you should work on this or that.

Are they usually receptive?

Obviously I don't have the credentials to diagnose anybody as that.

But if from my opinion, I think they're narcissistic, usually a true narcissist is not going to recognize that language coming from.

You think you should go to therapy.

I've seen the exact same behaviors in you that you see in your ex wife aren't receptive because they can't see it at all.

But somebody who is not narcissistic, but they are just caught up in the conflict and the battle of divorce.

I would say it's maybe only 30%.

It's still not a high percentage that they'll see it.

The one thing I did see was after everything was done and they don't have young children to fight about and they just have the finances, it's divided and they're done that I would sometimes get an email from them a year or two later and they would say now that I've been able to take a step back from it.

I heard you back then I wasn't willing to listen to you and do anything about it.

But now I see see what you were saying and now things are going really well and I've been to therapy and I've changed the way I parent my child.

But it's very rare to get that immediate positive response from people.

Yeah, wow.

I can see that.

Especially because narcissists are never wrong.

If you go and tell them, hey, you're in my opinion because I know legally you can't say X, Y and Z.

But in my opinion you have some of these trades something to look after.

Oh, no, I don't.

It's my ex wife only.

Oh yeah, yeah, that's.

I would hear that a lot for sure.

On the subject of red flags, are there ones that you wish people saw sooner?

Yes, I think that the red flag of somebody just not validating you as a human being, I think we get used to that.

Because if you think about it, we're not validated as a human being.

Even from our own parents as kids label us.

This one is the perfect one and this one is the honorary one.

And this one is the good student.

We have these labels and we don't know even what a label is as a kid.

So we just grow up thinking, I'm perfect, so I must be perfect.

We grow up learning these labels, we grow up coming into these roles.

And then now that we're in an actual adult relationship, we're so carrying on those roles of a child.

I think most of us have child trauma that we don't really realize.

I think a red flag is that we just continue in the same roles, that we don't validate somebody, that we don't recognize these cycles.

And people want to work on other people, but they don't want to work on themselves.

They want to point the finger.

When I was in church, a little girl, one preacher would say, when you point the finger, there's three fingers pointing back at you.

And always remember that.

And that always stuck with me.

Always stuck with me.

And that though a lot of people didn't go to my church, so they didn't hear that.

I don't know.

But I think that a lot of people don't recognize their role in anything.

And that when you don't validate your spouse by listening to them, then you're not validating them as a person.

And if you feel like your spouse is not validating you as a person and you either put up with it or you don't do anything about it, that's a red flag then to you.

And that the other red flag is that not recognizing your own trauma is something that may be a reason why you act the way you act, but it's not something that you should then say, oh, I have child trauma.

It should be, oh my gosh, I have child trauma.

I better work on that.

So you have to recognize your own red flags as well as identify the red flag of the other person.

Once you actually recognize these red flags.

If you're going to therapy once a week, but you're not doing your own practice of your therapy tools, the Other six days.

It's never going to work.

That's not a red flag, too saying, I went to AA on Monday, I could drink Tuesday through Saturday.

It's like, what like.

But people really don't work on the therapy tools every day.

You have to work on being sober every day.

Why wouldn't you want to work on being a better person every day?

Well, it's so much work.

Well, then you're not the one for me.

I have to tell you, you got to work on it every day or you're never going to stop this behavior.

I think another excuse goes back to we talked about a little bit earlier is if you're in denial or if you're blaming something else, oh, I'm.

I'm the way I am because I had really bad parents or because I had a rough upbringing or because I've been in 15 bad relationships.

Start taking responsibility for your own life.

Stop using your past.

Stop using your past as a crutch.

It only holds you down as long as you let it hold you down.

Right?

And once you realize, okay, but you had a tough childhood, who hasn't?

We all have a story that's.

Again, that's part of the whole thing with mile marker mindset.

We all have a story to tell, and a lot of them are pretty similar.

But use it as something to refine you, not to define you.

Again, going back to one of the core things of mile marker mindset, if.

I could add to that.

I love how you call it.

Don't use it as a crutch.

Let's actually use.

Think about real crutches.

Okay.

Or a cast on your leg.

And as long as you're going to carry this physical burden with you all the time, you're always going to be reminded of it.

You're never going to step out of it, and you're always relying upon it.

I think that's really important.

I like that metaphor a lot.

I think that what people need to do is say, I can identify my trauma, but I'm not going to have these crutches in my armpits and then they're going to hurt me.

And I got the towels on them.

And I think that if we say, I had this happen, I'm not going to let it show how I parent my kids.

And I'm not going to treat my spouse the way my mother and father treat each other.

Right.

It can almost be a gift in a sense, once you identify it, because it's already happened, you can complain about it all you want.

Why not say it's a gift to know what I don't want to do.

It's a gift to say I'm not going to be that person anymore.

Or I want to.

I don't want to emulate what they did.

I want to raise my kids differently now I know how to be a more healthy person because I don't want to have my kid have that same trauma.

And trust me, they're going to have another one.

Because there's something that you're going to do that your parents didn't do to you, that you are going to do your kids.

It's inevitable.

But at least let's not give them new trauma and bring in your trauma on them too.

But the thing is, your past is already set, it's done.

You can't do anything to change it.

But you can make it, refine you.

Learning from it, learning from your parents mistakes.

And that's one of the biggest things of metal marker mindset is make your past refine you, not define you, is use all those things you had bad parents or bad childhood, that's all in the past.

Use that as a filter, as something to refine you into something better.

Because you're not stuck in the past.

The past itself is done.

But you're not.

That's right.

Very smart.

You control your own destiny here.

You want to be stuck in that cycle and you don't want to break that generational curse or there's alcoholism in your family.

Well, my dad was and my grandpa and okay, you don't have to be.

You can make that choice to be a better dad, to not be an alcoholic, to not be abusive, to not be a narcissist.

Might take some work, let's take a lot of work.

But you can use that to better yourself and better your situation in your life.

But you have to be aware of it first.

So that's key.

That's right.

Yep.

Moving on a little bit here from that.

We talk a lot about conflict, obviously.

So tell us about a case where unresolved conflict wreaked havoc on the family or even the divorcing party's mental health.

I'm sure you have a lot.

Because it sounds like we've kind of touched on that a little bit.

That's the one I had just spoke about.

I was kind of alluding to that.

Where even when the case is over and there's no new case pending, there's nothing happening, but all of a sudden the mom does something wrong.

And why Better screen screenshot that to use in the future these parents who are stuck in that conflict and they can't stop the case building, the most terrible thing, but also the situation of not just case building, but when there's actually financial abuse happening.

And so many times you have situation where you can't have everybody living in the same house because it's just not healthy for the kids.

Not that having somebody move out is healthy either, but at least it brings some verbal peace because there's not the fighting going on constantly.

And so somebody has to get kicked out of the house.

And so many times you just, you hear like the one who is making more money, well, why should I be the one to leave?

I'm paying all the bills, or if I leave, why do I have to pay all the bills?

It's like, wait a minute, you paid the bills as of yesterday, why would you not pay the bills anymore?

Just because you filed what happened?

You took care of your family for the past 10 years and now because you divorce, you can't take care of your family for six more months until the case is over.

You had an agreement that she was going to work part time at IHOP because you wanted her there to pick up the kids from school when they're sick.

And you wanted her to be the assistant coach for soccer and the girl Scout mom.

You wanted that all along.

But now you're getting divorced and all of a sudden she has to make 300k a year.

That's going to happen overnight.

The thing is this.

When I would be representing the higher wage earner, because sometimes it's women too.

So I don't want to be specific on sex.

I would sit them down and say, okay, wait a minute.

When you act like that, when you say that and that you want to go to court and fight about how much money you want to give to your wife and your children or your husband and your children to help support them just until the divorce is over.

It's just temporary maintenance.

Think of what your kids are getting out of that.

I would have that case where mom doesn't work at all and she just does charity work, but she does charity work because they don't need her income.

And they made that agreement as a family a long time ago.

And I see what you're doing is that you're invalidating the mother's role of parenting to these children.

You're saying because she's not making money, therefore she's less of a human being, she doesn't need help, you're invalidating her existence basically, of Something that you actually helped create.

And I always would try to say that to these parents.

Let's look at it from the kids, because I grew up that.

Let's just think about that.

What is your child going to think of you 20 years later when they remember that daddy didn't want to give us $1,000 a month to help pay towards our groceries and our school clothes and our haircuts and buy birthday presents for our friend if they had a birthday party?

What are your kids going to think of you?

You're so mad at mom that you would rather punish them financially.

That kind of conflict is just so damaging to the children more than to the mom.

It's so sad.

It's so sad.

And I would always say to so many of my clients, let's fast forward 20 years.

Now your kids are 29 years old and they're raising kids.

Would you want them to do that to your grandkids?

Would you want them to do that to your daughter in law?

Do you want them to remember this is your legacy?

Think about it.

And gosh darn it, half of them would be like, I don't care.

I hate her.

Okay.

Really?

We're going to court.

I can only do so much.

I'm not your therapist.

I'm not your best friend.

I can just put some words of wisdom out there.

But if you don't want to follow them, fine.

We're going to court.

And that's your legacy.

You've chosen your own legacy.

It's not my fault.

I don't care.

Yeah.

About how my kids are when they're older and my going to perceive me.

Right.

Their family is.

Yeah.

Even God forbid they get a divorce.

Do you want your son to act like you or your daughter to act like you?

Right, Right.

I don't care.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's sad.

And I always think that we should live our lives as to what is our legacy.

When we pass away, we all want people to say, oh, they were a great friend, they were a great parent, they were a great support.

But then you have to do it.

You can't just say the words, I was this person.

You actually have to do it.

Man, that's really hard to believe that people would just be like, you know what?

I don't care how my kids are when they're older in their marriages.

They want to be a jerk to their spouse.

I'm being.

That's all right.

I'm good with it.

Right.

If I could just do a little tangent on that.

It's.

I was Just telling my boyfriend this story on a walk the other day about when elderly people get divorced.

And this story I remember as well, and it always made me feel.

This gave me this heartwarming feeling.

I had this settlement conference, and they were upper.

They were 79 or 80 when they were getting divorced.

And we were at a settlement conference, and we were just dividing property because, you know, minor children and the wife wanted X amount of extra dollars for something.

And I am the advocate for my client, and I'm like, absolutely not.

You're getting more than 50%.

You're going to be okay.

Now you're just digging this, and I'm being adversarial, which was part of my job.

And my client, this southerly gentleman who was from Missouri, and he was a high school teacher, retired for many years, and he puts his hand on my arm and he says, sweetest Southern accent.

He always reminded me of my dad.

And he goes, you know what, Julia?

Call me Julia.

You know what, Julia?

He goes, we've been married a long time, and she needs this money for this.

It was a voluntary, medical, cosmetic procedure.

He goes, she needs this money, and it's not going to change my lifestyle.

I just want to sit on a dock in Florida and fish the rest of my life until I die.

And I maybe only have about 10 years left if I'm lucky, and if this little bit of extra money makes her happy so she can go date, because it's my fault we're getting divorced because I just want to go to Florida and fish, and she doesn't.

And, you know, I'm the one who filed.

And so you know what?

She wants to maybe get all pretty and she wants to maybe meet somebody who'd make her happy is the least I can do.

And I just said, you are such a beautiful soul.

But people don't think like that in divorce.

It's so rare.

I said, you're living an amazing legacy.

It's fantastic.

And it made me feel love.

And I said, sounds good to me.

Let's do it.

I just thought that was fantastic.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

There's something to be said about treating the situation, even in a divorce, like an adult, not acting like a child in some ways.

And what I mean by that is, if it's not meant to be, if you can't make each other happy, whatever the case, even if you're not in a marriage, you're just dating somebody, it's not working out.

You have to be, I think, willing to acknowledge that.

You know what it's not working out.

And just like the story you just told, if I can't make you happy, somebody else probably can.

What do you wish more couples understood about what makes relationships work?

And your experience from all kinds of seeing people at their worst.

They seem obvious, but is that listening and it's that validating and being true to yourself, but also being true to the relationship is what makes things work.

If we're fake or phony or we do something because we think we have to do it, or we're checking out the box.

It is very different than saying, she likes to have her back rubbed every night, so I'm going to rub her back.

That's different than saying, if I don't rub her back, she's going to be mad at me, so I better check off the box.

So many people, I think they check off the box and then the relationship is no longer.

It's just not real anymore.

It's this fake facade thing that people do.

It should be more natural and be like, yeah, I don't want to rub her back, but it makes her feel good to rub her back, so I'm gonna do it for her rather than if I don't do it.

And then they get anxiety and stress over it.

I don't think that should happen.

The checking out the box, like, okay, I did.

So I'm a good boyfriend today or I'm a good girlfriend today.

And that does not love.

And that doesn't make the other person feel like they're loved at all.

You mentioned before, if I don't do this, then I'm gonna break an eggshell.

Exactly right.

I think that tiptoeing around people is something that we should not be doing.

I think that being true to yourself, though so many.

I've had a lot of divorces where people always say, you've heard everything before.

No, I haven't.

And they tell me something, oh, yeah, I haven't heard this before.

You're right.

Some people say I should write a book.

But there are people who are homosexual who get married and they have children and then they come out of the closet finally, and they're my age, in their mid-50s, and what am I doing?

It makes me feel sad on so many levels.

I feel sad for the person who felt they couldn't come out of the closet until they're in their mid-50s.

They couldn't be their true self.

It has to be really hard to do.

I feel bad for the kids that they're going to grow up wondering what was real.

What wasn't real?

My mom and dad even love each other and why do they even have kids?

And I feel bad also for the spouse who is struggling trait.

But that's got to be like, what?

We made love and we held hands and we kissed and what's real in my life anymore.

They can probably question the rest of their life if they get into any relationships in the future.

Is this real?

I thought this was real for 30 years of marriage and it's not real.

There's those types of things that I think that people, before they get married, they need to truly, truly be true to themselves.

Don't check off the box.

Well, I'm supposed to get married, so I better check off that box.

Don't do that to people because it's going to harm people in the future.

It's going to harm yourself as well.

And so I think that's something that's important to address.

I've just seen many people who are in these marriages where that were just facades.

I mean, I've even had polygamy cases, a few of those where you sit back and you go, what?

They had two or three spouses and they have kids in different states.

I know that was legal.

It's not legal.

No.

It's not crime in Indiana, where I'm probably definitely a crime, but people do it.

I always felt bad that the person who's going through it and these kids who are going through that and are they all going to be searching out a new relationship in the future?

Potentially?

Are they going to question everything?

Are they going to think everything's a red flag?

What's a red flag and what's not a red flag?

And that's where a lot of self growth and a lot of therapy is really important because you don't talk about these patterns you don't want to carry.

Just because I was duped for 30 years of marriage doesn't mean the next person I meet is going to dupe me too.

But you're going to assume I'm going to be duped.

And that's just how people are going to think about their life from now on.

Now, what kind of role are you playing in your own life?

Are you going to always be a victim?

Are you going to be like, no, that was them, that was not me.

I'm not wrong for being duped.

They duped me.

It's not my fault.

I believed it.

Like, what's wrong with me?

I'm stupid.

No, you're not stupid.

Anybody would have thought the same thing.

And you can't own the other person's persecution.

You can't do it.

You have to be able to say, this happened to me.

I'm that bad person.

It happened to me and I can't love again.

I don't care what you want to do with your life, but don't ever say, I can't love again because I'm going to be duped again.

Or all men out there are evil because now you're the red flag.

Sure.

We're talking a bit about patterns and reasons for marriage and stuff you establish.

I know personally the first time I got married, my ex wife I had my daughter with.

It's a marriage that was a toxic relationship.

And for whatever reason, hey, we're in a bad relationship, so let's get married.

That'll fix it.

Then I didn't fix it.

Let's have a kid.

That'll fix it.

That didn't fix it.

A lot of people going, thinking about patterns think marriage will do X, Y and Z.

And you have to do it for the right reasons.

If you have kids or get married because you think it's going to solve something, it won't.

In fact, you'll probably agree with this makes it a whole lot worse.

That's right.

That's exactly.

Emphasizes it exponentially more than fixing it.

So before you even consider having kids or getting married, fix your stuff the best you can before you take those permanent steps, at least for marriage.

That's exactly right.

And you can want to marry the person.

You can say, I love it if we can get married.

But you also have to say, but now is not the time because we're not in a good spot to do this.

And I hope one day we can get married, but right now is not smart to do that.

This is.

That has to be definitely something.

Be cognizant of those facts.

But you're absolutely right.

And it's because of social media.

It's because of Walt Disney World movies, the Hallmark Channel.

We all think, oh look, it's just happily ever after and made under the snow.

They all say the right thing.

Right?

Exactly.

And it's Christmas time and I'm gonna get an engagement ring because it's Christmas time.

It's like a very famous New York divorce lawyer who says, everyone says, I just got engaged.

No one ever says why?

You say, congratulations.

And if somebody said, why are you getting married?

We would not like that person.

We would be like, why would you ask that question?

But he promotes.

You should ask that question.

Because if you don't have an answer for it right away, then you shouldn't be getting married.

You should know why you're getting married.

That's because I love him.

It has to be something more than just that.

And if somebody doesn't look at you and say, why are you getting married?

And if you get offended by that, you gotta really think, why are you offended by that?

Because it's really a loving thing that somebody is saying to you before you step into that role.

I know somebody comes to mind.

I won't talk about their business here, obviously, but he's with somebody and they've been engaged for a long time and definitely have their issues.

Again, not my place to talk about their stuff here, but it just.

Some things make you wonder.

If you've been engaged for 8, 10 years, what are you waiting for?

Like, if you're.

If you're not sure you want to marry that person.

Because I don't know, I'm 42 years old.

You're probably a couple years older than me.

And like, why wait so long to marry somebody if you're not sure after 10 years if you want to marry somebody?

I don't mean this in any kind of bad way, but crap or get off the pod, give somebody else a chance.

Like, you know how many people are engaged for eight or 10 years and they get married and they're divorced in one or two years?

That is very common.

Very common.

Where I will, though, people come in for their consult and I say it was date of marriage and It'll be like 18 months ago.

And I'm like, oh, we've been together though, for 20 years.

Excuse me.

What?

Wow.

Yeah.

And I go for the first 18 years that you didn't break up.

How were things then?

Was it the marriage that made things go sour?

Were you trying to fix something?

What is it?

And quite frankly, it's none of my business.

But I'm an inquisitive person.

I would ask those questions anyway.

And I always find that very fascinating that they would be together, they would have two kids, you know, had a home together.

Deed is in both of their names.

And they're like, let's get married.

And the kids are 10 years old.

Let's get married.

And within a year or two they're getting divorced.

Wow.

Why?

This is an expensive lesson.

What did you learn from them?

From that other people can apply, because that's really interesting.

Unfortunately, I don't know if I actually learned anything because I'm aware enough that people aren't always in tune with what's really going on, or they just tell me to answer that they want to tell me.

And I never really bought what people told me.

Oh, we just lost the spark.

And I'm like, 18 months ago, you had the spark.

What happened in 18 months?

It doesn't make any sense to me.

I don't think people really could tell me a true answer as to why it happened.

Personally, I think it's that they got married to fix a relationship.

They knew it wasn't going to work.

They thought we had two kids.

Do the next logical step.

How logical is that?

It's illogical.

That's what it is.

Like.

Well, it just.

It just kind of makes sense to me.

That's the real answer.

They just thought it would fix what was going on, and they realized it wasn't going to.

And, yeah, with Megan, I waited a little while.

I'm sure she's talked a little bit about it, but I know I had a past of bad relationships.

I have an ex wife that was toxic.

We talked about that.

I wanted to make sure that I was in a good place and that we were in a good place.

And that a lot of times when you're dating somebody, I think you meet their representative and you see the version you see, like we talked about last episode that you and I had.

You see their Persona.

You don't see the person.

And I think it takes six months, a year, maybe longer to see the real person.

Once you see the real person and you are your true self to them and maybe you never change.

Megan always has been.

She is who she is, and she's unapologetic about it.

And obviously I'm good with it.

Right?

Right.

And I love her for it.

So it's one of those things where, you know, I'm not saying rush into marriage.

I'm not saying wait forever.

I don't know how that timeline looks, but at some point, you got to know one way or the other where it's going.

And then if you love someone, sometimes the best thing you do is let them go to find somebody else.

Just like that story you told about that older gentleman that can find someone to make them happy.

Because clearly, for whatever reason, it's not working out between the two of you.

And that's okay.

Yeah, it has to be okay.

Well, you can't control the other person.

You can't make the other person love you.

May the other person be a great person.

We have no control over anybody else.

Absolutely can't.

Are there other common or surprising patterns that you Witness in your legal career.

Yeah.

The most common thing is that people just lose their spark.

And that's so common.

And it really makes me sad because they don't fight to put the spark back.

And that's something I never understood.

If you just lost the spark, why aren't you trying to bring it back?

And I would ask those questions.

When was the last time you guys went on a date down to babysitter?

Was the last time you guys even went on a little vacation?

When was the last time you had a picnic in your backyard?

When was the last time you went to a baseball game?

And you know, just look at me like deer in headlights and I'm like, you haven't even tried to put the spark back.

Do you even want to put the spark back?

I don't understand.

We just don't even want to work anymore.

There used to be a spark.

It used to be think each other was the most amazing person in the world.

Finding out that they're a narcissist or finding out that they're a physical abuser or they're a financial abuser, or you didn't know that they had filed bankruptcy two times and they're bad with money and they're putting you to dad, putting those things aside, just the spark.

I'm like, you don't even want to try to put this mark back.

That hurts deep for me that you don't want to try to put that spark back.

And then other ones.

That's very common is there's always an option.

Unfortunately, nowadays, back in the day, there were really only options for people.

You married somebody that was your person and you did what you had to do to have a good marriage.

And nowadays you can always say, I'm with you now, but I still remember those two people that I met.

Tinder, while I still have my phone.

If this doesn't work out, I can always call Mike again.

If we live our life that there's options out there or we look for options, or we just, oh, I'm going to just DM and be, oh, I like fried pork chops, too.

When you're cooking on a cooking thing, why are you trying to connect with that person that's not changing their lives.

You're trying to connect with somebody.

You don't have to comment on every single post on social media.

You don't have to heart every single thing just because.

Because now that person knows, oh, they noticed me, they liked me.

And that can open up a dangerous door.

Having all these options nowadays is a Very common reason why there's so many divorces.

It's just.

It's out there again.

It's really sad because we're not just seeing what's in our face and we're not trying to put the energy into what's in our face.

Once we put any energy on something on a phone, forget about it.

In fact, it was common, Mark, that somebody would say, I did something, or she did something or whatever the case may be.

And I would say, do you link up with somebody from high school that you saw on Facebook?

You friended a new friend on Facebook, and 90% of time.

Yep.

You went to your high school reunion without your spouse, didn't you?

Yep.

It's unbelievable how that happens.

You mentioned something that's common here, being on your phone.

And yeah, there's a lot of dating apps, like you said, Tinder and all the other 900 of them.

In fact, Megan, I actually met on one of them, which is awesome.

That worked out.

Blessing.

But a lot of people are married, for the record, I don't have any say one way or the other on this because this is being recorded.

But a lot of people watch.

Only fans and people are.

They're married.

I never been on it, for the record, don't know anything about it, but I know that there are people that are supposedly.

There's the porno, pornographic stuff, I guess.

Then there's women cleaning their house and wearing.

Or not wearing, whatever.

I don't know how it works, but.

Right.

So if you're a man or a woman and you're giving attention to something on a screen, how can you give attention to your significant other?

Especially it warps your mind because now you think about that person, not about the person that you married.

So it always strikes me as sad.

I don't know that's the right word.

When someone's, oh, I've had friends that I've stopped talking to because we've fell apart over stuff like this because they're into that and they claim they're happily married.

You have the next conversation, they're talking about some woman they follow on only fans or something.

And I'm like, right, Right what?

It's like, no, she's good with it.

Okay.

Not my life.

The new word now that's all over is micro cheating.

I don't think I ever heard that word until a couple years ago myself, but micro cheating.

And it's amazing how many people don't realize what comes under the label of micro cheating when you say you are micro cheating.

On me.

When you text an old girlfriend and even just say I was at a restaurant and reminded me of something, that's micro cheating.

That's you're trying to connect still with somebody that you used to see naked and you shouldn't be seeing naked anymore.

You're saying, I still want to be relevant in your life.

That's cheating.

And if it bothers your spouse or bothers your significant other, that should be enough for you to say, I'm going to value what's in front of me more than my past, therefore, I'm not going to do it anymore.

But if you say I can't get rid of my past, that what you're saying is I value what I used to have over what I have right now.

And this micro cheating is a really big deal, and a lot of people are doing it.

And that they have to be told that it's wrong or it's micro cheating blows my mind.

That they think the other person is just being overly sensitive or they're not cool blows my mind.

It's like, yeah, you're defending your actions when you say you don't recognize it as micro cheating because you still want to do it.

You'd rather do that than spend an extra five minutes with your person.

You spend five minutes micro cheating.

And I think people don't realize how much it can be.

It could literally just be staying friends with all your ex lovers.

If it bothers your spouse, that's micro cheating.

If it is simply just showing up at a funeral.

You haven't seen this person in 15 years, but you go to the funeral because your mother died.

You haven't talked to them 15 years.

You want them to see your face.

You're curious if they still think about you.

Don't be stupid.

It's micro cheating, and it's on so many different levels.

Names all the hearts on every Instagram reel.

You're saying, I see you.

And the person was saying.

And they're saying, well, they're in a happy marriage and I'm just friends with them.

I'm sorry, but as a woman, when I put a pretty picture of myself and somebody likes it, it's that dopamine hit.

Oh, they liked me.

When you are liking somebody else's new profile picnic and they're the opposite sex, guess what?

You're giving a dopamine hit.

You're saying, I notice you.

And if your other.

If your spouse has no problem with, that's great.

But if your spouse has a problem with that, then just don't do it.

It's just.

It's like, why is that more important than validating?

It doesn't matter why they do or why they have a problem with it.

If they do, that's all they.

That's it.

You got a problem with it done.

Right.

You know, and it's the old litmus test, I think used to be if it's something that you think would bother your spouse or something, you can't tell them, it's probably wrong.

Right.

But in the case of I mentioned my now old friend about when he goes on only fans, supposedly his wife's good with it or watches it too.

Again, no judgment.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong.

It's not for me to decide.

It's, again, not my life.

But my opinion on it is I think it's wrong.

And I think watching stuff like that won't get you anywhere in life, for the record.

But if you're gonna watch that stuff, I don't see that being good for a relationship long term.

Because again, where's your head when you're with your spouse?

You're thinking about that girl you watched cleaning her cabinets or doing whatever, or the man doing whatever, and you're not thinking about the person you're with.

And that's a problem.

My opinion on it is.

This is my opinion.

If you seek that out or you feel you need it, then what you have in your own home is not enough.

Yes.

Because of what you had in your own home was enough.

You don't need to have outside stimulus.

And if you need outside stimulus, then there's something deeper going on in your home and you need to fix it or you leave each other.

Yeah.

So many.

We talked a lot about relationships and bad stuff and relationships and red flags and patterns and all kinds of stuff like that, which is all very useful.

But if someone's listening right now and they're like, I get all that stuff's negative and you shouldn't be doing this and that.

Totally understand that.

What are some practical things we could tell the listeners that are some common.

How to avoid some of these pitfalls and maybe steps somebody can take if they're feeling stuck or scared or just some practical things they can do if they're feeling trapped or unsure about things.

How can we help people move forward here?

And even spotting red flags as we touched on all that stuff?

What I think that people need to do is identify the issue.

And if it's not an issue that they're bringing to the table, it's the other party the relationship is bringing to the table.

They need to identify and talk to their person in a not a confrontational way.

But just say, I'm not feeling as in love with you as I used to be or I don't feel as cared for as I need to be cared for and this is why I feel that way.

And what can we do?

Do you acknowledge that I have some validation in my feelings and what do you want to do about it?

Do we go to therapy?

Do we go to individual therapy?

Do we do individual and group therapy?

You journal about things.

Sometimes it's good just to talk to to your best friend or your girlfriends and to say, hey, I'm having these thoughts.

Do you guys recognize anything when we're all together as we all go out as couples, do you think I'm jumping the gun?

We don't want to be told that we're too sensitive because that's gaslighting.

But sometimes we are.

We have to identify.

Sometimes we are the red flag ourselves.

Sometimes we do make much to do about nothing.

Sometimes it's good to get that feedback.

Say, I'm feeling this way.

What do you guys think?

And be completely honest with your friends if you're going to go to your friends.

Journaling is obviously very important too.

It helps you self regulate.

It helps you identify things.

And I said before, journaling for me is very important because I can journal something that upset me.

And then sometimes if it's not a crisis kind of a situation, I'll look at it a couple days later to say, do I still think it's necessary to bring this up to my partner?

And I'll go, no, no, it didn't change my life.

I still love them.

It's not a big deal.

How else delete the whole journal entry.

I think journaling can be really helpful to give yourself some feedback as well.

I think that if you don't do those things, if you just sit and tell that person, then you're as to blame for the relationship ending as the person who's treating you poorly potentially.

Have you heard of.

At some points, everyone's always blamed the person who escapes a relationship.

But they don't look at the thousand cuts that may have led to it.

They don't look at what you did as a symptom of what they they've been going through for a decade.

Potentially those thousand cuts get wiped under the table.

Unfortunately, they just do.

And you have to take a stand.

And if the person says I don't care, I'm not going to change or I'm not going to validate you.

Then that's when you make your decision of what you want to do.

Do you want to be stuck in this or do you need to leave the marriage?

And that's a pitfall would be doing nothing is the pitfall.

And to stand up for yourself, you got to stand up for the relationship.

Absolutely.

And one thing with that we keep mentioning is talking to your friends.

We talked about it with vulnerability in this and that.

And one of the things I've learned is what is it smart for an alcoholic, recovering alcoholic, to talk to other alcoholics about not being an alcoholic?

Case in point is if you're talking to somebody, the same stage of life that you're in that hasn't been through it yet.

This is where the mile market mindset coaching comes in.

Where I've been through a lot of this stuff and I can help you through it.

Cause I've been through it and I've gotten through it.

I gotta help you get there.

And again.

Milemarketmindset.com coaching or email me at coachingilemarketmindset.com you go to your friends, that's also maybe a bad relationship.

You go to someone that's drinking a lot for advice on stopping drinking or your buddy that has four divorces for relationship advice.

Be careful who you're talking to because if you're talking to somebody in the same spot that you're in, you're not helping yourself.

While it's important to vent, I think to people that are close to you, maybe friends, girlfriends, other family members, that's great.

But if it's somebody that hasn't been through what you've been through or is going through the same thing that you're going through, or they are an alcoholic in this example, maybe heed your audience a bit and be careful who you tell what because they might not give you good advice because they're going to see the same exact thing that you're going through.

Right.

That's something I've learned you really got to be careful about.

Right.

And to add to that is that you can talk to those people in the same situation that you're in.

Because sometimes they're also the only people who can understand what you're going through.

This is where the self work comes in because you have to be able to identify if somebody says something to you.

You have to have your alarm system.

This isn't helping.

They're actually damning me or they're condemning me.

They're not just there to support me or they're giving me bad advice.

And if you're not aware, if you don't do the self work at the same time concurrently with everything else that you're trying to do.

And the thing that people tend to do is that this goes with the whole Google algorithm.

You know, if I Google, what plant should I buy in Florida, it's getting Florida plants.

If you put it in Chicago, it's going to give you plants that will stand up to bad weather.

The algorithm knows everything about you.

Or I've been googling, do I really love my boyfriend?

And Instagram, oh, guess what?

Every single reel is going to be whether you should love your boyfriend or not.

It's not going to show me recipes anymore.

More for about two weeks.

It's the algorithm.

So it's just.

It's the same kind of thing when you're speaking with somebody.

Is that it?

Or you go to a therapist, There could be a therapist where they, they feed into that negativity or they tell you what you want to hear, not what you need to hear.

It's more bad after bad.

So many people who are going through a divorce will go to a therapist who will tell them what they want to hear, or they placate the victimhood, or they say, that person was such a terrible person to you, I feel bad for you.

They're acting like a friend or a neighbor rather than a therapist saying, hey, wake up, there's a thousand cuts.

You both have work to do.

So you got to be aware of your.

Not just your phone algorithm, but your social algorithm too.

Where are you seeking advice from?

Because if you're going to seek it just to get what you want to hear, you're doing nothing.

It's like.

It's confirmation bias.

Yeah, exactly.

Seeking advice from friends and family.

It's all good to be aware of who you're asking advice to and being careful what advice to take.

Your friends and family have an uncanny ability to see things you can't, especially about relationships and even about yourself.

Back in episode two and three, especially three, I talked about how a friend of mine called me out on something and at first I laughed it off a bit.

I was like, ah, man, we're just having a couple beers, joking around.

I was living with somebody else at the time and all that.

But no, he was like, I'm serious.

I've noticed this pattern about you, Mark, and I've known you since I knew him since I was in junior high.

So he knows me quite well.

He's been Through a lot with me.

And so he's like, no, Mark, this is really an issue here.

I'm being serious.

I had to be open and willing to listen and take that constructive criticism.

And firstly, he did in a way that was productive.

And I was also open to listening to the advice.

And that's what really started my path, going the right direction was maybe this dude's on to something.

And so if your friends, your family sees something that you might not, if there's someone that really loves you and cares about you, they might see something you can't.

And maybe they just don't like your boyfriend or your girlfriend.

And that's something you also got to be cautious of.

But a lot of the time they just can see things that you can't.