Working overseas as a U.S. citizen means the tax conversation can be tricky! How much do you pay as taxes to each country? Do you need a tax agent in the U.S.? And what entitlements do you have as someone working abroad?
With over a decade of expertise in US expat taxes, Olivier Wagner shares with me what U.S. citizens living abroad need to know, especially if they are digital nomads. From leveraging the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion to the complications of Social Security contributions, Olivier shares with me the insights you need to live in Ireland and pay taxes in the U.S.
Whether you're considering renouncing your US citizenship or curious about the tax implications of your global lifestyle, this episode is packed with essential advice to help you stay compliant and make informed decisions.
Main Topics Discussed:
Introduction to Olivier Wagner and his expertise in US expat taxation.
Overview of tax obligations for US expats and digital nomads.
Utilizing the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion for digital nomads.
The implications of Social Security contributions for US expats.
Strategic considerations for US citizens contemplating renouncing their citizenship.
Financial planning tips for US expats living in higher tax jurisdictions.
The importance of seeking professional tax advice before moving abroad.
If you loved this episode or have a similar story, we'd love to hear from you! You can get in touch with us directly at info@expattaxes.ie or leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
Taxbytes for Expats is brought to you by ExpatTaxes.ie. If you're considering moving to or from Ireland and would like support with your taxes, book a consultation today: https://expattaxes.ie/services-and-pricing/.
Transcripts
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Welcome to tax bytes for expats. The top tax tips you
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want to know as an expat, the podcast is here to help answer
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the common queries and concerns expats have when moving to
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or from Ireland. Complex taxes explained
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simply, we'll focus on the irish and international
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tax issues to be aware of to ensure you save time,
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money and stress. Hi everyone,
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welcome to this episode of tax bites for Expats. Today we're
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going to talk with Olivia Wagner, who's the founder of 1040
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abroad. Olivia is a leading expert in us expat
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taxation and he's also a best selling author on the subject. He has
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over twelve years of experience in helping us expats
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navigate what we all know is the complex world of us
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taxation. He has in depth knowledge and experience and is a
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respected authority in the field. So we thought it would be good to have him
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on because he he is dedicated to helping us expats understand
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their tax obligations while also taking advantage of all the benefits and
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deductions available to them. So we've got lots to talk about. Olivier, thank
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you very much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. It's our
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pleasure. Thank you. So I think when we were trying to decide
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on what we might talk about today, I mean, really there is so much. But
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what I'd love to do before we kick off and talk about the intricacies
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of us expat taxation generally is for our listeners to
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get some kind of an overview as to your background. You know, why
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tax? The name, as some may have gathered, it doesn't
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sound to be from the US. Initially, I
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suspect I hear a french lilt to your accent, but yeah, tell us about your
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background. Right. I'm originally from France. I moved to the
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US in 2004. I worked at Mundi's credit rating
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agency in New York. In 2009, I became a
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us citizen, and in 2011 I
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moved to Canada and only very recently became a canadian
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citizen. And I had this idea of being
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locational, independent of working for myself, which is something that is
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a lot more widespread since COVID-19 but back then,
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you essentially had to work for yourself, to work remotely.
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And as I moved to Canada, I was looking into
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fields in which I could do that, and taxation was close enough
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to finance, close enough to my skillset that it sounded
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like a good match. I immediately became an annual
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agent. I founded 1040 abroad, and I became a
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CPA three years later. You were busy.
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A busy few years. So
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tell us then, why us expat taxation? What
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appealed to you about that specific niche? Well, I'm good at playing with
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numbers, so that that was a good fit for me. And
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also Americans overseas are, you know,
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spread out all over the world, and they won't
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necessarily have a us tax professional in their town
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to meet them in person and prepare their tax return. So
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again, back then, in this pre COVID-19 where we were talking about ten years
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before, that seemed like a good niche where
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people would be more inclined to work remotely. Yeah, yeah.
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And it's. That's definitely something that's become more common since
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COVID-19 so maybe when we're on that topic, I know one of the things we
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said we might talk about today was how the US wants to tax
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digital nomads. Tell us a little bit about what you see in your client
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space and what anybody listening today who considers themselves to be
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perhaps a us citizen and also a digital nomad. What do they need to know
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about or be aware of when it comes to taxes? Well, the main thing is
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that the US taxes its citizens wherever they live. The only
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way to get out of the system completely is to give up us
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citizenship. As such, digital nomads will still report
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their worldwide income, but they would use
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the foreign income exclusion, which allows them to
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exclude their earned income up to
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$126,000. And to do that, they
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need to meet one of two tests. Either be a bona fide
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resident of a foreign country, which normally wouldn't be the case
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of nomad, or the physical presence test, which requires
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them to spend 330 days in a transbound period in a foreign
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country or countries. So that's the test that digital
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nomads would heavily rely on, but that would
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be income tax. They will avoid being income tax by using the
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foreign income exclusion. When it comes to Social Security,
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if they're still working for a us company, it will keep on being
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redeemed. If they're self employed, they will pay what
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is called self employment tax with their tax return. The way around
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that is to be an employee of a foreign
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corporation. They can create a foreign corporation and
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then they won't have to pay US Social Security.
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Different people have different views on that, because unlike income tax,
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you're actually meant to receive benefits at what time on back paying
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Social Security. But that's the big picture. That's a
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really good overview, just maybe on that point there about social insurance.
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And for digital nomads, you hit on something that I think is quite important,
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is that when somebody pays into a social insurance system,
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they are paying into, for example, from a US perspective, the right
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to a us social insurance pension in future. What's your
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recommendation for your clients when they have the option to pay
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that, or perhaps structure their affairs such that they don't have to? Well,
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if someone is nearing retirement, they need a few more quarters
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of contributions to get their full benefit. Then it
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makes complete sense to pay Social Security and be able to
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collect the full benefits when they retire. Someone
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who's younger, in their twenties or thirties, I usually
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refer to them, it's their decision.
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At the end of the day, if they were to move back to the US
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and have to pay Social Security later, then they would get full
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benefits and it might not be the best choice.
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But if they keep on staying outside of the
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US and all of their Social Security
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contributions will be voluntary in a way, then it might
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make sense to not contribute and save a similar
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amount invested on the stock market, and then they would have
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more at retirement. Obviously it's their
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personal lives and they incorporate their views as to
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where Social Security will be, and I cannot force them to save
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either. But if you're going to save on your Social Security taxes, you
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should put it in a securities account and invest it as opposed to
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spending it. Yeah, I agree, and I think that's a really important
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point, is that now when people are digital
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nomads, it's brilliant. It opens up so many possibilities. Places you can
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travel and work, see the world, and potentially have a low
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tax rate legitimately. But of course, I think you hit the nail on the
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head. Depending on how far away they are from retirement, it's always worth
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keeping one eye on. Well, what will this look like in 20 years time?
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I mean, from an irish US perspective, thankfully, there's a reciprocal
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agreement which broadly ensures you only pay social
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insurance in one country at a time. And in addition to that, there's an
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aggregation of benefits paid in both jurisdictions and certain
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circumstances. But of course, these digital nomads are generally moving
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so frequently that they may not have the obligation to pay into the
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system in Ireland for the required amount of time. That's really interesting.
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Okay, so tell us then a little bit, the majority of your clients then, do
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they tend to be in that digital nomad space, or do you work
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predominantly with people who have relocated to places outside of the US
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permanently? Yeah, actually, normally they have deeper woods
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in the country they're in either in Canada or
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Western Europe, and then there's a lot more opportunities not
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to pay tax. As you mentioned, on the Social Security
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side, they would be able to use the totalization agreement, which means that
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regardless of the structure used, they would not be liable for
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Social Security. They would pay Social Security into the local
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system. And when it comes to income tax, in addition to the foreign
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income exclusion that I mentioned, where, by the way, they will be
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able to claim the bona fide residence test at that point, because
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they will be actual residents of a foreign country, they can also
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use the foreign tax credit, which turns out to be more
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advantageous for those who live in countries with an higher tax
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rate. Ah, okay. Okay. So they need to review their own
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situation. Do you see it common that digital nomads
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fail to get the foreign earned income exclusion and end up paying taxes in the
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US because of the fact that their movements are transient? I mean,
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that's. I haven't seen as many
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audiences you would expect, even though I advise them
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to keep a copy of their boarding pass and Lisa Grimaud
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and passport times take a photo with their phone because
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they can lose these things. It's much better to have a digital copy.
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But, but yes, they need to spend
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330 days in a twelve month period in a foreign
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country. So that's something that they need to be mindful
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of before the fact. Because after the fact, they cannot
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change the past. And they are probably not in a
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situation where they can use the bonafide results test or the
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foreign tax credit. Okay. No, it's
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interesting, I wasn't aware of that previously. In terms of the clients
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that you deal with, obviously they're all us citizens. I know
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we spoke briefly before we started to record about the implications of
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renouncing citizenship. And I suppose one thing that goes through my mind when, and we
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talk about, for example, this cohort of digital nomads who are struggling
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to leave the US tax net, irrespective of the fact that they're not in the
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US. And then the second group of people who, you know, leave the US, go
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and live somewhere permanently. You know, in our case, that's Ireland in many
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cases. When and why and how?
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That's three questions. In one, would somebody hand back or consider renouncing
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their us citizenship, talk us through why they might do it, what it looks like
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and how they go about it? Well, it's typically more of the second group
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that you mentioned, that would be people who have fed
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their lives in a foreign country, have lived there for decades, have
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a second citizenship, don't really see them moving back
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to the US, tend to be older. The main benefit of us
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citizenship is the ability to live and work in the US. And
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when someone's in their twenties, they don't know where their career and
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their personal lives will take them. Whereas as people get
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older, not only are they more settled in their country
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of residence, but they also tend to have more complicated
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financial lags, they tend to have more investment income, et
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cetera, things that are more complicated from a us tax
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perspective. So then it makes more sense for them to
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announce. Dextranomads, for starters, won't
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naturally get another stanchion because they don't
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create enough ties with a foreign country. Every now and then
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you see someone who would buy a citizenship by
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investment and then give up your citizenship without being
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settled anywhere in particular. That's definitely possible,
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but, and I have a few clients like that, but by and
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large expectuates who regularly live in a foreign country
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outnumber them. One of the things that comes to my mind
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is I rarely see my clients renounce
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us citizenship, is that in the irish US situation,
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irish tax rates tend to be higher most of the time at an individual level.
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Right? And therefore the way the double tax agreement works is
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save for the fact that the savings clause in the treaty says this treaty
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doesn't apply to us citizens. It does, as I understand it, allow
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a credit mechanism that you alluded to earlier, whereby there will be credit in either
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Ireland or the US for tax. So they're not doubly taxed
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mechanism for that application. Depends. But I suppose when you're coming to
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a higher tax jurisdiction like Ireland, I often explain to
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my clients, well, you're going to walk away from the transaction. In most
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cases, having paid the irish rate, the US may have taken some of
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it, Ireland will take the rest. But what hits your pocket is the irish
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rate. So what I'm trying to say in a long winded way is being a
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us citizen isn't costing them any more money in this scenario. In other words,
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they have to pay irish taxes if they want to live here. The US taxes
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are lower. It's a bit mute. I would imagine you're more likely to see
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people renouncing their us citizenship if they're moving to a low tax
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jurisdiction. In other words, as a lower tax jurisdiction than the US,
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is that what you would see practically?
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Definitely. People who pay less tax elsewhere
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earn more than the free downcome exclusion, would have more of
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an incentive to give a QS citizenship. But
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actually, it's not really the taxowing that leads
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them to speaking about people in Canada and western
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Europe, it's not the taxowing per se that leads them
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to renounce citizenship. It's the cost of filing tax
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returns, the amount they pay their accountant. It's
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the restrictions it creates on their financial
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lives. Foreign mutual funds can be considered pifique
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and be subject to a punitive tax regime. They have
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to avoid mutual funds. In many places, the sale of a
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principal residence is tax free, whereas in the US, only the
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first $250,000 of capital gain is tax free. If
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you held real estate in Toronto, for instance, for
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a decade, your capital gains would be a lot more than $250,000.
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And if you have a foreign corporation, Canada has a regime
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that makes it advantageous to leave the earnings inside the corporation
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was in the US to avoid subparav gilt income,
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which essentially will tax you personally for all income that you live
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inside the corporation. So to have a reasonable treatment on the
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US side, you need to distribute it to yourself in the form of wages
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or dividends, which goes against the canadian tax
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rules, the canadian tax incentives. It's not
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necessarily the amount of tax owing, it's the restrictions that it
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creates on their financial lives. They have to
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organize their financial affairs in such a way as to
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not be subject to punitive us tax
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regimes whereby they would actually have us tax
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sowing. I mean, to take that last example, for instance, you leave the money
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inside the corporation, you have taxable income in the US.
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You don't have taxable income in Canada or Ireland. So you
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didn't pay tax personally on that income because Canada or
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Ireland would not consider you to have a personal income. And
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since you don't pay tax debt, foreign country, you would not have a
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foreign tax credit. So it's all these restrictions it
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creates on their lives that lead them to renounce
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more than the amount of tax saving per se. And
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these must be people who are confident
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they have no desire to live and work in the US again, right?
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Yes. Okay. Yeah. Because at that point, they would
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need to actually. Interesting question, and it's probably an
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immigration one. I'm assuming once you've renounced your citizenship, you then
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enter as a tourist. You join the tourist
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queue at the airport. Yeah. You really are walking away
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from that, right? To live and work there wouldn't be done lightly in any event.
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What pitfalls are there? Tell us what the tax pitfalls are when you're announcing
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citizenship. What do people need to be aware of before they run
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to a decision? What do you step them through when you're guiding a client?
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Well, they need to determine whether, whether they are so
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called covered expectuates or not their sweetest. They need to
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be compliant with their five years of tax returns, which is
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the most straightforward. They need to have an income
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tax, an average income tax liability over the prior five years of
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less than $170,000, which usually is
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not the issue, because people in that category would also have a
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net worth of more than $2 million, which is
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the test that would cause them to be a covered expatriate. And
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if they are covered expatriates, then they would be subject to the exit
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tax, a deemed disposition of all of their assets on the day they
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renounce. Also, if they make gifts to us
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citizen, us citizens, recipients will have to pay the
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gift tax of 30% of that. And there are other
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negatives to that. So, yeah. So in the planning phase, they
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need to determine whether they are covered expat rates or not.
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And if so, if it's based on the asset test,
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which it usually is, they might want to give assets to a
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spouse, and when asked the year after, once they're under
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the $2 million threshold to avoid that covered expatriate
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status. Okay. Yeah, that's interesting. There's a lot of consideration.
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So how do you normally guide someone through this? Your business
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is an online business. Do you engage with people online via
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consultation and advise them in this way to help them through
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this planning phase? Yes, absolutely. We will typically start
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with a call similar to this and then
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exchange information on my secured partner to
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either prepare a tax return or advise on this situation.
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When it comes to announcing us citizenship, I would refer them to the
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balance sheet that is found on page two of form
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8854 that will allow them to
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determine whether they have a net wealth of $2 million
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or not. And oftentimes people forget some of the assets they
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have and tend to underestimate d twelve, not
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by malice, but they might not think about the true value of their
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pension, for instance. So just to kind of refer to
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8854, that's the form that needs to be completed to
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renounce citizenship. Correct. From a tax perspective. Right? Right.
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So they would fill out various immigration forms with the
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consulate for the actual renunciation. And the next year, they
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would file their final tax return, a dual status return,
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along with form 8854. And the IR's will
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look at that form 8854 to determine whether they are
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covered expatriates or not. And my understanding is that it's a mark to
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market exercise. So therefore, the valuation of the assets at the point
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of expatriation is what is taken into account. So upswings
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in the value of your assets because, for example, the stock market has performed well,
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could, in theory, trip you over a threshold and cause a
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problem. If I've understood correctly, based on my previous experience with
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clients. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. And if you
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have a client who's close to $2 million mark and
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have volatile assets, I mean, stocks are one thing,
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cryptocurrencies are something else altogether. It might be a
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good idea to move them into cash for the day of the
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renunciation to ensure that they wouldn't get tripped over.
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Yeah, of course. So, planning in advance
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to ensure there's no exit tax
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surprises. Okay, that's really interesting. What other tips do
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you have for us expats who might be listening to this today?
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If you're speaking with somebody, let's say, who is planning a move to
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Ireland? They are a us citizen and they
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have a portfolio, for example, of 401K
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accounts. They have maybe an IRA, mutual funds,
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ETF's property in the US, and are about
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to take a job in our. You know, just hypothetically, what
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are some of the things or tips or piece of advice you would give someone
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if you were. You were trying to get them to take something away from this
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episode? Well, that situation is quite straightforward, actually. They can keep
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all of these assets. Obviously, they would be taxed on the
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withdrawals from the IRA when that
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takes place. Aside from that, I mean, the financial
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institutions might close their accounts while when they're
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overseas, there's nothing illegal about them
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having an account in the US when they're in Ireland. But some
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institutions are more conservative on the
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KYC front. That's something to be mindful of.
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And actually, sorry, just to interject Jack there, because that's a common thing that we
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come across. So the KYC acronym is know your client, which is
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for anti money laundering purposes. So, international standards around verifying
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who financial institutions are dealing with. And we experience that
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frequently where our clients will say either they're no longer allowed to
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invest, or their financial manager
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or broker says, we can't deal with you anymore because now you don't have an
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address in the US. So you're right, and it tends to vary.
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Some of the finance houses will work with our clients if they're no longer in
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the US and others won't. So it's interesting that you make that very point,
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because that's exactly our experience. And I think that's a real takeaway
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for clients who are planning the move, is don't take for
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granted that your portfolio can continue to
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operate as if you had not left the US. It will depend on what
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your investment manager is willing to allow you to do while you're outside of the
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country. Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. It's not a tax rule, it's an
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automoney lendering rule. And the bank does not have
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to close their clients account or freeze it. But
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when they see something they're not familiar with, they tend to err on the
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side of caution because they don't want to have to explain it to their regulator.
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Right. The credit union that originally
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served the Department of State Employees, so government employees
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work at us consulate is accepting
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outside clients. You need to buy an ACA membership which costs
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dollar 50 a year. But that's the one us institution
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that has sent people to when they cannot find another
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one. They're designed to deal with us citizens who live
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overseas. That's really interesting. So, okay,
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so it sounds like, and that's where probably the majority of people fall, is in
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that example that I gave with outliers, of course, people who have
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different business interests or structures in place for
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you. What are the main piece of advice you give your clients
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if they are planning to leave the US? Because obviously your clients are all
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outside the US. What do you want them to
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know? Well, as you mentioned, ultimately they will be
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paying irish tax. So when it comes to planning
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retirement, investing in retirement products, they should look into irish
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products as opposed to 401 ks and iras.
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The deduction that was useful when they were in the US
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is no longer useful because install made on the premise
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that their tax rate will be less at retirement than it is
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now. And after using the foreign tax credit, their tax rate is
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essentially zero in the US. And be mindful, if you're going to
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create a foreign corporation, be mindful of the
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Saparaf and guilty income rules I mentioned earlier.
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Someone who moves to Ireland as an employee, you know, would be
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a straightforward situation between the totalization agreement
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and the foreign tax credits, they weren't
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otax, but someone who creates an irish
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corporation would have a lot more opportunities
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to mess up, if you will. Okay, so there
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needs to be advice on both sides, irish and
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us. Yeah, I think really from an irish perspective,
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some of the points you've made are valid in the context of
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irish taxes. We say it time and time again on this podcast, but the
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value of taking advice before somebody moves can never be underestimated
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because of the differences in the rules between the US and Ireland.
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And I think you alluded to it there, but it's very true. A product
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that's designed to achieve tax efficiency in the
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eyes of the IR's doesn't necessarily hold weight as being a
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tax efficient product from the Irish Revenue Commissioner's perspective. So it's that
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disconnect between something created and invested in while you were resident
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and living in one state may not give you the outcome you anticipated
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when you bring it to another country. So to circumvent that
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possible pain, take advice beforehand, because
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with planning in time, we can often unwind or
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suggest alternative ways to continue to invest.
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And you've hit the nail on the head. How do people contact you,
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Olivier, if they want to work with you and your team? Oh,
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they would go to 1040. That's
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1040 abroad,
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and there's a contact form on the homepage and we'll get back
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to you within 24 hours after you complete that. Brilliant.
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So you guys obviously prepare tax returns. Do you provide written advice
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and obviously online consultations as well? Yes, absolutely. Okay. Similar
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to ourselves, it's been brilliant to talk with you. Thank you so much. I think
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there's quite a lot there in terms of what our listeners can take
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away, particularly if they're planning to renounce their citizenship or setting
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off for bluer skies elsewhere. As a digital nomad, we've really enjoyed
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talking with you and I'm sure our listeners will enjoy the episode as well. Thank
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you. Wait. Thank you very much.
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Thanks for listening to tax bites for expats. Please do leave a
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rating or review wherever you listen to your podcast. And as always,
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remember to take professional tax advice specific to your
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personal circumstances before acting or refraining from acting
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in connection with the matters dealt with in this series. The material
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in this podcast is intended to give general guidance only.