📺 Watch, Subscribe, Follow on YouTube & Spotify

Thanks to Our Sponsor

Harnois Greenhouse

Website - https://harnoisgreenhouse.com/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/SerresHarnoisGreenhouses

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/harnois.ghs/

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/serres-harnois-greenhouse/

“I think it is a little bit of a blind spot for us with respect to supply chains... the seed genetics being a key bottleneck or point of risk in Canada,” says Darby McGrath, Vice President of Research and Development at the Vineland Horticulture Research and Innovation Center, in this compelling episode of Greenhouse Success Stories. With an insider’s perspective on the future of Canadian food security, Darby McGrath exposes how the nation’s greenhouse sector is largely dependent on imported seed genetics not tailored to local climates, leaving growers vulnerable and highlighting a critical gap in innovation.

Tune in to learn why Canada risks losing control of its food supply without urgent investment in homegrown seed breeding, how Vineland works with both domestic and international partners to advance R&D, and what it really takes to bring resilient, high-yield crops to market. Whether you’re fascinated by genetics, the business of agriculture, or the future of food production, this episode is packed with insights you won’t want to miss.

Key Takeaways

1. Don’t leave seed genetics to chance—demand Canadian-adapted crops and support initiatives building local breeding capacity now.
2. Break research silos—reach out, collaborate, and leverage networks like Vineland to accelerate real-world horticulture solutions.
3. Take control of your supply chain—identify vulnerabilities and advocate for investment in domestic R&D and greenhouse innovation.
4. Harness new tech—explore advanced solutions like pathogen labs and digital tools to future-proof your greenhouse operation.
5. Act on knowledge gaps—access Vineland or similar organizations for support, and bring your unique challenges forward to drive sector-wide progress.

Memorable Quotes

"Breeding doesn’t operate on funding cycles, and the way that we invest into these things is through competitive granting, and that doesn’t work because breeding extends beyond those funding cycles that are connected to policy frameworks."

"If we want to invest in breeding, it can’t be based on competitive funding alone. Not that I’m saying that doesn’t have its place for encouraging innovation and developing new tools, but it’s got to be a strategic decision that we say, no, this is worth it and we’re going to invest in it and here’s why."

"I think our job is to support the sector, identify where there are market gaps, and develop new practices, processes, and products for horticulture in Ontario."

Connect with Darby

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/darby-mcgrath-a6671935/

Vineland Research and Innovation Centre - https://vinelandresearch.com/

Resources Mentioned

University of Guelph: https://www.uoguelph.ca/

University of Toronto: https://www.utoronto.ca/

Brock University: https://brocku.ca/

University of Waterloo: https://uwaterloo.ca/

Connect With Us

GSS LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/verticalfarmingpodcast

GSS Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/direct/inbox/

Subscribe to our newsletters!

AgTech Digest - https://agtechdigest.com

The Indoor Farmer - https://www.indoorverticalfarm.com/

Horti-Gen Insights - https://www.hortigeninsights.com/

🎙️🎙️🎙️

Podcast Production and Marketing by FullCast

Discover the best podcast services in the world at The Podosphere: https://www.thepodosphere.com/

Mentioned in this episode:

2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews

2025 Precision Ag Report

2025 Precision Ag Report by iGrowNews

2025 Precision Ag Report

I think it is a little bit of a, a blind spot for us with

respect to supply chains. And of course, we're living in a

geopolitical context that is bringing a lot of things to the forefront that

historically maybe we've not really had to pay attention

to. Welcome to Greenhouse Success Stories. Tune in

every week as we share conversations with growers, operators, and innovators

from around the world, providing insight into what's working in their greenhouses.

We discuss firsthand experiences and provide insights into how these farms

are succeeding and thriving. Special thanks to our title sponsor,

Arnois Greenhouse. With your host, founder of Little Greenhouse That Could,

Trina Semenchuk. Okay, welcome back to

Greenhouse Success Stories. Today, I'm very excited to

be interviewing Darby McGrath. Darby is the Vice

President of Research and Development at Vineland

Horticulture Research and Innovation Center. So welcome to the

show, Darby. It's so good to have you here. Oh,

thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. So before we get started, I think

it'd be really great if you could just talk a bit about

Vineland Innovation Center, you know, what you

guys do, how you help the greenhouse sector. I'm a

huge fan of research and development, so I, just reading through

your guys' report, I think that there's so much cool research that you have going

on that I think people would be really interested to learn more about. Yeah,

thanks. So Vineland is a not-for-profit research

and innovation center. We're located in Vineland Station,

Ontario. Our role is to really sit

between, uh, the research function that we require

for horticulture in Ontario. So we're partially funded by the province.

Through a transfer payment agreement, and we're also a property manager

for the Agricultural Research and Innovation Ontario.

So it's a pretty cool space to occupy because we do

play this really critical role for the province, delivering

various things through the property management side of the company, as

well as the research and innovation side. And really

our whole role is to support the sector, to

identify where there are market gaps, and to develop new

practices, processes, products for the horticulture sector in

Ontario. Which means, you know, we operate this beautiful

campus that's, you know, over 200 acres. And we have

a team of about 80 to 100 people depending on sort of time of year,

allowing us to work across these facilities and

work directly with growers, work with the industry itself, and

deliver on research and development needs for sector. Okay, so cool. So

200 acres, how many of those acres are

under greenhouse? So we operate

two major facilities that we would consider to be under glass.

So one being our, what we call our main greenhouse, and that's a Venlo-style

greenhouse. And that's sort of what we call our collaborative or

pre-commercial greenhouse. I'd have to look up the exact square footage for that.

We also have a sort of a legacy greenhouse. It's our south complex, and

it's a bit of a workhorse, and that's a much older

complex, but still lots happens in that space

for the sector. So it, it allows us to do lots of different things, sort

of scaling out of the lab, and then also in the Venlo

style with the high gutters to look at where the industry is with respect

to technologies and crops at the sort of the scale that we see

our growers moving towards in Leamington and other places across

Canada. So just curious, since you guys are, you know, so R&D focused,

do you collaborate with any universities? And if

so, which ones? Oh, that's a big

list. The answer is yes, of course we do. Collaboration is

so critically important to research and development, especially in the ag and

hort space. You can't do any of this in a vacuum. So

depending on the project, You know, we work variously across

Ontario, Canada, even internationally with universities as well. So

folks that are listening to this will know the usual suspects. So, you know, the

University of Guelph, University of Toronto, Brock University, who's

in our neighborhood, as well as many colleges, you know, sort of on the

practical side as well. Many of our researchers hold

adjunct status at some of the organizations that I've already named, as well

as many others. You know, University of Waterloo and

many, many others. So, you know, it's absolutely important

for us to work with those academic institutions to develop, you

know, high-quality personnel as well as to be working, you know,

in conjunction where there's already ongoing research efforts either through ourselves or those

other organizations. We can build something more

powerful if we're working together. How do you work with

universities and researchers outside of like the

Ontario region. And then just thinking, because, you know, I just got

my Master of Science in Biosystems Engineering at the U of M,

and myself and Cormac Foster, we're co-developing a

course for CEA for the Biosystems Engineering Department.

So we're always looking to figure out, you know, how

do we yet expand the reach of

research and development in Manitoba with people who are doing this

elsewhere. So yeah, for Vineland, how do those kinds of opportunities

look like and how do they exist? Yeah, it, it

can happen in a lot of different ways. We're very flexible that way. So a

project might come in where a university is already working on something and maybe

they just need to bolt our expertise onto theirs, where then, you know, we

become sort of part of the project. Okay, we absolutely

will, you know, if there's students that are interested, we're, you know, we're

sometimes through our adjunct roles, co-supervising students or sitting on

someone's committee or something like that. And then

there's also the opportunity for commercialization. So as universities

develop new technologies, since we play a

really strong intellectual property management role in horticulture in

Ontario, we might be able to support on the IP management side as

well. So, you know, we were a very

committed player in helping the University of Guelph with their tree fruit,

for instance, as an intellectual property manager. So that's a good

example of sort of that more downstream role that we can play as well. So

it's, it can be very flexible depending on, you know, the

fit and assuming it aligns with our strategy and things we're working on,

we can work in lots of different ways. So can you explain more

about this tree fruit and IP management

role you're playing? Like, can you tell describe a bit more of what this tree

fruit project looks like? Is it, is it under

glass or is it, you know, just outdoor agriculture

or, and talk more about your IP role. For sure. So I

mean, this is a good example, not exactly greenhouse specific for, for your

listeners, but certainly gives an example of how Vineland works to support the

sector is that the University of Guelph has an absolutely strong

legacy in tree fruit breeding. As well as Agriculture and

Agri-Food Canada. And one of the things we do to support that is,

you know, we operate the farms where the tree fruit exists so that the

researchers can continue to, to sort of manage their

projects as they're working still actively on breeding and as they move towards

commercialization. And then Vineland is actually

supporting the management of the intellectual property side. So as things

are selected, and we do provide variety

evaluation support, um, for things like tree fruit and fresh

grape through like the Ontario Tender Fruit Growers and the Fresh

Grape Board, who work very closely, of course, with the University of

Guelph on those portfolios. Then we are playing

that role where we're helping to actually manage that intellectual property

portfolio so that it actually makes it out into the hands of the

folks that want to be growing it as the propagators and as the

ultimate, um, tree fruit producers that are going to be growing those crops. So

as you move your way down the R&D pathway and you get along those

technology and commercial readiness levels, that's another way that we sort of

provide support to the sector because that's a

skill set in and of itself to be able to manage intellectual

property and commercialize it effectively. Yeah, I just want to talk a bit more

about this. So say Okay, so

one thing that I see with CE8, you know, leafy greens are such a

popular choice of crop for people to grow. And then also in this greenhouse

sector in Canada, we've got tomatoes, bell peppers, and cucumbers that

are, you know, of course, staple products that growers are growing.

But in terms of expansion, when it, especially when

it comes to, you know, supporting the local Canadian

market, I really see us needing to be able to

grow additional crops that we're constantly,

you know, importing. But of course, a barrier to

starting up these, you know, commercial crops is

validation. Can they be grown under glass? What do

the yields look like? How are they grown, etc.?

So I'm wondering, when it

comes to working with Vineland.

First, I guess, first question is, what do you see as an

emerging new crop that can be grown

under glass for greenhouses? You know, a new

crop, maybe there's work being done on the seed breeding, seed

genomics side. And then I want to talk a bit more

about how someone who, you know, maybe has an idea

of wanting to start a new greenhouse for a different crop, how they can work

with Vineland and what that would look like. Like. But let's start with

seed breeding and, you know, new crops that you see

coming to market. Not to get into the semantics too

much around this, but there's lots of seed crops, of course, that

are very much controlled by international partners. So if you

think of the big three that you mentioned, that's a great example of

where most of the seeds that we use to

produce peppers, cucumbers, and tomatoes are coming from

international suppliers. So basically they're distributing those genetics

to Canadian growers. Those crops are not bred for

Canadian climates. So, you know, they're not

grown for our particular heat units,

you know, our seasons or things like that. So there is sort of

that whole supply chain issue that we

sort of always keep an eye on with those seed crops. With respect to emerging

crops, the big one, and it feels almost like it's not

emerging anymore, although of course it is, is berries. So the big place where

we see so much demand, interest, growth,

movement in the market right now is really with strawberries. And

that's an interesting crop because it sort of

came online, of course, due to the fact that we're seeing

difficulties with production in the United States in areas that

have typically been very, very strong with production of things like

strawberries. And at the same time,

it sort of came online for Canadian growers

where we saw challenges with tomato crops due to tomato brown

rugose. And as growers shifted to things like cucumbers,

we saw a huge oversupply of some of those crops as we shifted

gears and said, okay, what can we grow instead with the infrastructure we have?

And then we had this sort of, this emergence of, you

know, what else can we do with these productive spaces under glass and

strawberries being one where we import so much of it. And of

course, the Wesson Foundation has done a really good job of shining a light on

just how much we import with respect to berries in Canada.

So where I see, you know, emergence interest, there's

still, there's so much work to be done with respect to

strawberries. And strawberries is another one where,

again, the genetics are not for us. They could be field berries

that we're looking to try to grow under glass here. We see more

breeding happening right now for greenhouse, but it's

usually out of, you know, like UC Davis and some other places, or there's some

very strong Japanese varieties that we see we're trying to make fit,

right? And this is the Canadian, not just greenhouse, but this is the

Canadian greenhouse story where we're looking, we're always sort of

that sales market for genetics rather than that

development market for genetics. So trying to

find fit with varieties that were developed

elsewhere is usually the challenge that growers are left with. And

it's like, this can often lead to challenges with things

like, you know, yield, right? We see mismatch

with respect to yield because of the heat units not being correct or

the season length not being correct. and then also the disease

challenges that we face, the pressures here, those breeders are

not necessarily facing the same disease pressures that Canadian

growers are. And not to mention, sometimes even though they face the same

disease, it may not even be the same strain that we experience in

production here, you know, even regionally or across the country.

So yeah, so there's, there's certainly more

emergence within those crop categories, those sort of the big three.

We're seeing more niche with respect to different kinds

of tomatoes, smaller specialty colored,

all these fun things that we're seeing in our grocery stores now. Even

within the cucumber market, we're seeing the minis, the super

minis, all the way to the English Longs and different varieties for that.

And then peppers, of course, you see lots of variability in like snacking

peppers and things like that because we're expanding those categories because

there's demand for them. When you say There's a

mismatch on the heat unit. What do you mean by heat

unit? Like the amount of heat that the strawberry

needs to, you know, grow its max potential? Yeah,

so when we're breeding for other places in the world,

we're not looking at the specific environment that we're going for

either in Leamington or elsewhere across Canada where our light levels might be

different and the, you know, the growing season is going to be different and quite

literally the amount of units we have in terms of heat. So think

about like growing degree days for corn. It's no different than

that, but applying that to a greenhouse context, which means that

often we're, in Canada, facing a different

cost-benefit analysis for our growers, right? So we're looking at like,

if we're growing under glass, we're controlling for all those variables.

Greenhouses are great at that. But at the same time, if you're having

to pay a lot to heat or cool or light

your environment, that equation for growers is,

it's got to make sense, right? It's got to make production sense. Otherwise, you can't

be just doing this out of the goodness of your heart to be growing food.

You've got to make it, got to make it viable for growers. And so

sometimes those genetics are designed for niche

environments that are not the same as ours, of course.

So either too, you know, much higher heat or much less

heat, which can induce stress and ultimately reduce

the total yield of the crop, and then we don't get that productivity gain

in the margin that growers need in order to make this a sound business

decision. Okay, so I'll be honest, genetics is a

little outside of my scope, but I want to learn more about this, and I

think probably listeners would be curious as well. So I'm going to

try my best to ask some good questions here, but they might be

high level. That's fine, because again, I am, I am

not a genomics expert, although I'm the VP of a team that has really

brilliant folks that are. So I will— I'll give— I'll wear my VP hat

when I give my— okay, great. So I guess, yeah, when you

say that you guys are doing work on genetics, or that you see

that there's emergence of work being done on genetics,

is it then like safe to say that you can

change the genetics of a— of a specific

strawberry brand so that— or a strawberry

variety so that it responds better

under different optimal temperatures? And

can you modify it so that it's more resistant to

the specific diseases and strains that

exist here in Canada? And is that the work that Vineland is

doing, is working on modifying those factors to

breed, to produce a better Canadian strawberry seed?

Yeah, so we're not specifically breeding for strawberries, although we're

supporting companies that are breeding for the Canadian environment. So I'll go there

first. So one of the things that we can do with the skillset that

we have, because we have such great bench strength with respect to

genetics, genomics, trait development, all those sort

of attributes that you just pointed to there, is that we can

help companies that are down a path with respect to breeding

make selections for the Canadian environment. So think

about the fact that they may have this big pool of

germplasm that looks really promising. And this is usually

how this plays out, is generally germplasm

is developed elsewhere, let's say for greenhouse

crops, and then they send stuff over here and we hope it

matches the environmental conditions that we have here. And

sometimes It does, and sometimes it doesn't, but we're not

actually making crosses, so making selections

of parents that have the attributes that we're looking

for, for Canada. So where we, where we do breed and we

breed in tomato on the vine right now for those

particular things is that we're making selections

to help our crops that we're selecting

perform well under the conditions that we experience here, and that

can be like that's the, like, as I mentioned, all of those things, like the

predictable heat units, the light levels that we have, the length of our

seasons, which, you know, depending where you are in Canada, it's also

variable. So that's fun. But then at the same time, it is

all of those diseases that growers are facing, because if

we can build those building blocks into the crop

itself, you're already upping your game, right? And

then we're just complementing the production environment your

sort of your pesticides, pesticide regime, all of those things are

complementary then to, to the genetic package that you have

selected. So we operate sort of across the spectrum here

where we can help companies evaluate their material, maybe that they're

already, they're already actively breeding for in

our Canadian conditions, or we can actually

go earlier into that and help them make decisions around which

things are going to perform the best. So think about it like

they give us a menu of things and we say, under the

evaluation conditions, we say these 3 do well and these 3 do

not, versus working backwards in the kitchen where we're

actually helping them put the ingredients together to say, here are the

packages or the attributes that you want so that your menu

actually fits the conditions that you're facing. So

we work, I would say, all the way along sort of that spectrum from

breeding in the very earliest sense of it, where we're actually,

you know, actively making crosses for particular greenhouse

crops. And that's the tomato on the vine example. But also

we can support companies so that they can bring the

right selections to our Canadian growers. Because the thing is, breeding takes so long. I

was going to ask, like, how long does this take? Because you have to, like,

make the seed or the germ— select the germplasm, make the

seed. And they grow the crop. And it totally depends on the

crop. So tree fruit being the worst example, because trees are, you know,

long-lived woody perennials. And so by the time you actually plant a tree out to

select the fruit off of it, you know, you're like, we're going to

have an apple after about 20 years in terms of apple breeding.

And if, and like, for instance, we're commercializing some fruit right now

that came out of Ag Canada's breeding program in the '80s. So,

I mean, we're getting faster with tools and things like that, but boy,

it's a long haul. And it's challenging because people can lose

interest along the way. And you can't, you have to keep the

momentum going. And then, you know, we're a little bit luckier with

things like tomatoes because, you know, they're

technically an annual crop. So, you know, they're faster cycles, like you

can get more cycles and you can make selections faster, but you're still,

you're multiple years, you know, closer to a decade

before releasing certain varieties, depending on, depending on

the complexity of the crop and things like that. So, so it's really

important, like the breeding engine needs to keep going because you're

always improving on it. And that's a little bit of the challenge with

things like greenhouse crops in Canada is there is no real engine for that in

Canada. You know, we have some breeding happening here, But if you think

about like the power of the example of like wheat, for example, in

Canada where that engine is so strong and as a

result we have very successful, you know, you know, we're very

successful with respect to our wheat genetics in Canada and the story

tells itself. You have to keep like the investment

into those kinds of crops happening. Otherwise, like you, you

just, you're, you're at the mercy of people bringing what they think might be good

enough for our growers. And that's the case with greenhouse crops. That's so interesting. I

don't think. Many people know this,

especially when you frame it as Canada is more of a

buyer for SeedGenetics than a developer. I think that

that is actually— when you think about it, it's quite concerning because we're

talking about food security here and being

able to grow our own food. Okay, so just

one quick follow-up question, just out of curiosity.

How long would, you know, a strawberry breeding cycle take,

do you think? And, and just for clarification as well,

you guys aren't breeding strawberries at the moment, but

you're working with companies to help make the right selections.

Yeah, absolutely. So strawberries, we're not actively breeding, but we are

a key partner in a couple different places right

now to help bring better Canadian-adapted

genetics to our growers. So again, like, what Vineland

positions ourselves to sort of step in at the right point, like, we're

not going to go in, like, our job is to go in and complement

where someone has already got a really strong start. Like, we would love to go

in and be able to provide that support. So in this case, you know, they

can come and evaluate the varieties in our facilities. We can, we

can challenge those crops with the diseases or the other pressures they

might face here. But where someone has a strong start, of course,

like our job is to make sure that we get things to market that are

the best things for our growers as fast as possible. So we wouldn't, we wouldn't

start up a breeding program to, to compete where there's,

there's been strength already. So yeah, with strawberries, not actively

breeding right now. I saw online that you guys opened up a

pathogen lab, so I'm wondering if you could

talk more about the pathogen lab, how that

helps seed genetics, and how that will therefore, I guess,

produce better, more resilient crops for the Canadian

market? Yeah, we did. So

when we've been breeding tomato on the vine for,

you know, a number of years now, and like everyone else, we actually

had a really strong portfolio of tomato seed genetics.

And then tomato brown rugose kicked everyone in the butt there

and said, now we are the priority. This virus is the

priority. So all of the things that many folks had had in their

breeding pipelines that looked really promising took a bit of a

left turn when that came

on the horizon in around 2019 and

then made its way into Canada more strongly thereafter. So we've been

actively breeding in tomatoes for that. And one of the challenges then

when you have something that's as virulent

as tomato brown rugose virus is that you may have

be operating your own active breeding program, but you have to be

protecting yourselves and others when you're trying

to challenge your own germplasm

with this virus. So we made the strategic decision

a couple years ago to invest in what we call the Advanced

Pathology Lab at Vineland, which is basically a facility

that is not a Level 2 lab but has

many of the features of a Level 2 lab and is

geographically restricted on our campus.

So it can't— it does not play well with others. So we keep it, you

know, it's over sort of as like a semi-quarantine facility.

Where we can actually do our own disease

challenges for things that, you know, we can't do in the greenhouse

without, you know, contaminating the rest of our

projects and/or clients' projects. So it's, you know, it's also

that piece as well as making sure that we are

really secure because we're in the neighborhood of other greenhouses as well.

So we need to make sure that we're being really safe and secure. So in

that facility, we really kicked it off so that we could

continue as rapidly as possible assessing our

own tomato breeding lines for their performance

resistance against brown tomato brown rugose. But in the

meantime, it's also allowed us to sort of open up this

capability for others. So one of the things that we also do in the facility

is, for instance, testing new rugose disinfectant

products. So, so Since rhubosis is everyone's problem, if

you're a grower, you need to make sure that you have the right disinfectants

to clean out, you know, within and between cycles. So

when we're not using the facility for breeding, we open it up for these

shared trials where we can do these evaluations of products in

a really safe and de-risked kind of manner, and

then give those results back to those companies and then provide sort

of that level of, I guess, confidence to the

growers where Vineland has evaluated it in this really rigorous way.

So when they're introducing something into their toolkit for cleanout,

they know it's gone through this, this process in our facility. And we've,

we've sort of evaluated for all those fun attributes that they're going to

be looking at it for. So this facility has been awesome. I mean,

it's one of those things when you build a new facility that you're like, geez,

I hope we'll be busy and that will make use Now it's

like, you know, it's more of a scheduling nightmare than anything in a good way.

We're busy. It's got lots of interest and we're always looking at, you know,

if it needs expansion and what comes next. And of course, there's always going to

be a new pest or disease on the horizon that we're— that we

want to support our growers and the companies in the ag space to

be able to take it on and face the challenge. And at the moment, you

would say it's primarily used for tomatoes? And how many compartments do

you guys have? It's basically like we have a lab space that's

connected to a bunch of growth rooms. So it's, it's, uh, it's

not a, a full production facility right now. We're looking to expand it

with some lighting and racking and things like that. So we have 6 growth rooms

in there. We can't quite go to scale, which is part of the

challenge is that we have some clients where we're doing different technology

evaluations for new products that they wanna get registered in

Canada. And right now we, it's difficult. 'cause we can't take it to full harvest

in there. But we can do things basically, you know, until they get to the

point of like fruiting. So we can do a lot of pre-screening in there. And

it's not just rhubosed that we do. We've done other, um, pathogen assessments in

there, like hop latent viroid and other things like that, that we don't,

uh, that we're not comfortable, uh, putting in our production facilities.

We can sort of quarantine and, and make sure that we're evaluating in this,

this safe ways. So yeah, so it's, it's busy

all the time and, and it's one of those things that we don't want it

to be a best-kept secret. We want people to know that not only do we

have the facility, but we have the skill sets to look at these

different things in, in different ways. So whether it's from the, you know,

genomics, genetics perspective or the biochemistry team doing

metabolomics types of assessments, so, you know, different stress

pressures, things like that, we can evaluate all of those things outta the facility.

So, so, so cool. I hate to backtrack a bit

here because the pumpkin lab is so interesting, but I just think that this

question is so important and probably when it comes to,

you say Canada is a purchaser of seeds rather than a developer.

How do we change that? Like, how do we become more of a

developer with new seed genetics, you know,

for greenhouses or, you know, just for agriculture in general?

For Canada, for all of North America, what do you

think needs to happen? Yeah, I think, you know, the

biggest thing is recognizing, like, I think it is a little bit of

a blind spot for us with respect to supply chains. And of course, we're living

in a geopolitical context that is bringing a lot of things to the

forefront that historically maybe we've not really had to

pay attention to. So I think that I think some of that is just shining

the light on that is important to pay attention to.

And I think that, you know, as we think about things like food security and

food sovereignty, having a look at the things that

we want to have more control over is

part of the way that we, you know, that we pay attention to this kind

of thing. So greenhouse crops are like, I don't know, is it like a,

it's almost a $3 billion $3

billion market every year in Canada. Like, it's not

a small— it's not a small market. So I think if we start to

pay attention to some of those values and understanding that, you

know, the seed genetics being a key

bottleneck or point of risk in Canada, like, that,

that is something that without control of that, you know,

we, we do run the risk of not having control of our production systems

anymore. I think it's something like there's roughly 3

companies that supply 80%

of tomato seed imports into Canada. Oh my goodness. So

that's rather large. And I don't know, I

mean, I don't sit in the big seats here

in Canada, but those are numbers that I would be paying attention to with

respect to just risk management and things like that.

And the other side of that, of course, is is we have had good investment

from the government into some of these things, and it's really making sure

that we continue to invest in these things. So, where

Canada has invested in things like, you know, I talk about wheat and breeding, the

returns were massive and they continue to be. And of course, that's a

commodity and it's very clear why those investment decisions were being made.

But looking at where productivity growth in Canada is

coming, we know And it's going to be in the greenhouse sector. We know

controlled environment is going to be a huge part of how Canada

keeps pace in a changing climate. So what are the crops

that we want to ensure that we have strong access

to, to the genetics for, or to control the genetics for, I think

is, is where we start to look at that. So yeah, I mean, I think

it's important to pay attention to. And when I look at even like

just the, like the plant breeders' rights filings and

in horticultural crops, over 90% of them

are from outside of Canada. So like, just

generally speaking, we don't own the intellectual property

in those spaces. So yeah, it's just, it's sort of

shining a little bit of a light onto it. And, and maybe it didn't matter

so much before, but as the greenhouse sector continues to

grow in strength and size and value and scales

across the country, and in some cases coast to coast to coast, we have

to really think about what do those supply chains look like

and where do we run the risk of losing control.

And right now, the genetics are a huge place. Do you think that the priority

should be investing in developing seed genetics

for crops that have already established markets,

Or for crops that have potential to create a new

market? What do you think if we had to pick one? I mean,

right now it's gonna be really difficult to go in and compete with some of

those companies in the greenhouse sector. They're really good at what they do. We work

with them, and this is not a, you know, a sour grapes kind of story

like that, that we wanna be. It has to be a

complimentary story, I guess, is the way I would look at this. So I think

it's probably a bit of both. And, and I think the, the point is that

where we want to where we see points of risk and

opportunity. So even in the crops that we have access to in Canada, where there

is, you know, where there are seed genetics, are they performing well? Are

they performing under the scenarios we see Canada facing in the

future? And I mean, there's so much great research about, you know,

changes with respect to bioclimate envelopes and where we may be

able to expand the footprint of horticultural production in Canada.

And, you know, even things like the Canadian Food

Guide where they talk about just how much of our diets

as Canadians needs to be focused on things that are

horticultural crops, like the half plate kind of mantra,

like those are horticultural crops. And so I start to think

about, if I'm looking at this from a policy perspective, let's

focus on what does that half your plate actually look like?

Where are those supplies coming from? And of

course, Canada's, you know, our

demographics change and what people want to eat change and all those kinds of things.

But there's going to be staples, there's going to be those things that are required.

And there's, you know, a very strong retail contingency in

Canada that knows those numbers really well. And I think that,

you know, there's a lot of information if we're all working together that

we can start to make stronger decisions around

where are we investing and why. And really to tell the story

around productivity for our Canadian growers to make sure they're

well armed to weather the storms that are coming in terms of

climate and otherwise. And then to make sure that as

Canadians, we have access to the foods that we're being told are

the healthiest and the right supply. So I think it's

not a direct answer, but it's a bit of both. It's like, yes,

there's new and emerging crops and new and emerging opportunities, And as

our, you know, it's funny, like, I'm certainly not an expert in this,

but we have consumer and sensory experts at Vineland who tell me, you know,

people's palates change every 7 years, or the

demographics of our country are changing. And so the crops that we're looking to

consume are changing. And so, you know, there's

wonderful new tools that can help us make those decisions. And I think

it's got to be a more strategic approach than

just, you know, sort of scattershot trying to make this work.

It's like strategically, where are we investing and, and why to support

Canadians and to support our, our food supply? Where and what do we

need to be investing in to boost seed genetic

breeding capabilities? Like, is it— should we be looking at, you know,

improving R&D facilities at universities, or should new

and, you know, nonprofits specifically focused on seed breeding

genetics be funded? Should these be

startups, for-profit entities for seed breeding and

genetics? Like, are, I guess, and also from

an education perspective, do we have even the

programs or the degrees in place to

help train people with the capabilities they need

to take on these genomic roles? What are

your thoughts on all of that?

Yeah, I'm certainly not an expert in all of that, but I'll give my two

cents on it. Um, I think, you know, we are

running the risk of losing sort of the high-quality expertise

we need in these spaces in Canada. I think that

we have to continue to train people in these, in these

spaces, and, and certainly we're seeing, you know, Across

universities in Ontario, we're seeing, you know,

universities are struggling and where are the,

what focus are we putting on these kinds of things with respect to food? So

I think that's really important. In terms of, you know,

building new facilities, I don't know if it's so much that, it's like we have

so much, we do have so much bench strength here in

Ontario and in Canada. And so it's like really getting a

strong understanding of who's doing what. And I think, you know,

sometimes about sort of the healthcare analogies, you know,

about the pre-competitive research consortia in things

like cancer research. It's like, if this is really as important as

we think it is, and it should be, you know, who's out there

and who's working on what and how can we go faster? And there's some

universities that are starting to do a bit more of that. And, you know, like

there's Genome Canada that's very supportive of those kinds of

mechanisms to make sure that people are focused on the right things and they

provide funding to do that. I think the challenge that I

see the most is that breeding doesn't operate on funding cycles,

and the way that we invest into these things

is through competitive granting, and that

doesn't work because breeding exceeds,

extends beyond those funding cycles that are connected to policy

frameworks. And of course, that then in and of

itself makes it difficult depending on

what the new focus of the next policy framework might be,

makes it difficult to create continuity when it's not a true

investment mechanism, when it's like a funding mechanism. And then it's like, well, your

funding's ended and you're 4 years away from

something that could be commercially ready or longer in some cases.

So I think we have to be cognizant of the

fact that if we want to invest inbreeding, it

can't be based on

competitive funding alone. Not that I'm saying that that doesn't have its

place for encouraging innovation and developing new tools,

but it's got to be a strategic decision that we say, no, this is

worth it and we're going to invest in it and here's why. So, yeah, like,

I think that, you know, there's different ways to go about it.

I think that right now, we're not Perhaps

the way that we're approaching it is just missing the mark. It doesn't mean that

we're not putting money into it, but I think we're putting money into it perhaps

in the wrong way. Oh, I see. Yeah. And so you even mentioned like it

could be an issue with connectivity of people not knowing who's

doing what. And so if there's that issue, then how do we build

on what's already been done to move further faster? I

guess that's part of what you're saying is the problem.

Yeah. And if you think about the way that we support these kinds of

things through competitive granting, you are by the very nature of the

structure encouraging people to find their

niche and, and sort of exclude the others in order to win

the grant, right? But if the goal is for us to all move the needle

in terms of productivity for our growers, then how do you, how do you

structure that in a way? Like I say, I think about like

pre-competitive research consortia for things like cancer. Everyone's

goal is to move in the same direction because we're all looking,

we're not in a competitive space here, we're all trying to sort of build up

the critical mass to keep things moving. So I

think that alone would start to

change the narrative a little bit and also then encourages

drawing people back into that system rather than sort of pushing

people out of that space. And I think the really

difficult or exciting part of breeding for greenhouse is

that there's so much room for

new things to happen. And there's, you know, there's tons

of literal tons of space where we could be growing things.

And, and, you know, you can be breeding for architecture and things like that

as well. So not just, you know, in terms of

disease or productivity, like how can we breed new crops

so that they can be so they, they fit with an automated

harvest system, right? All of these things, like when we think about the genetics that

we've brought into the greenhouse, which historically were field genetics, and now

we're starting to get into the generations of genetics that are for

greenhouse, but even the greenhouse architecture has changed, you know?

So like what, like what are our targets in the future? There's so much room

for us to get more productive in this space for flavor,

for nutrition, things like that, that we can really be

thinking about our crops as an essential part of, you

know, Canada's food security system, because we can

be setting these targets and really pushing the envelope with

respect to addressing labor challenges that we have,

as well as nutrition gaps that we have as a country. Do you know a

lot of for-profit seed breeding companies

are doing this work? Because I'm wondering if maybe the funding should be coming

from investment and, you know, investors, VCs, or

whatnot. But although they have, you know, a VC has a tight, you know,

wants to see a quick turnaround in their investment. Breeding is

so difficult for that. Yeah. I mean, this is the, this is occupied

by private companies primarily, like the genetic. There are,

you know, you think about where a lot of our greenhouse genetics come from, they

come from the Netherlands. Like they are robust. Um, and not

just the Netherlands, but you know, that's the, you know, the one that everyone would

think of. They're robust, they are well-oiled machines with

respect to putting together these portfolios

and making sure that they hit the targets for breeders. So I just think that

like, that may not be the mode of action

in Canada, maybe it is, but I think right now where

we're trying to do this off the backs of, you know,

competitive granting, it's very incremental

and it's, it's very much focused on the first

leg of breeding where it's new and exciting, and that's a great story to

tell in a grant. And then you're like, well, what's the next cool thing? Well,

nothing. I just got to keep doing this for another 10 years till I get,

you know, till I get the output I need. So, so it makes it, it

makes it really challenging. And that's why private companies are good at it,

right? Because they, they can have that longer view to these kinds of things. So

I don't have a solution. I'm putting out a call to action, maybe. That's okay.

You don't, you don't have to know the answer for everything. So we

talked obviously a ton about seed genetics and, you know, a

bit about the pathogen lab, but I'm wondering if you can maybe give

us like an overview of all the different sectors

of research and development that Vineland does. So, you know, you've

got like your seed genetics sector. What else do you guys do?

Yeah, so we operate internally on sort of an

organizational structure that I'll lay out for you, which hopefully helps explain all the

cool things we can do. So the seed stuff is

really focused on what we call our crop enhancement and adaptation team. So this

is a team of experts that are really focused on

genetics, genomics, trait development, bioinformatics, all of

those awesome things that are sort of the engine for

making decisions around new and different crops. And then of course

we have breeders, you know, we have vegetable and fruit breeders in that team as

well. We have our consumer sensory and market insights team, and

this is the team that is excellent for

evaluating fresh and consumer packaged goods. So we have

a sensory lab where we can actually do that and trained sensory

scientists and a trained sensory panel. And so this

panel is, a group of experts that we continue to

maintain so that they can help us evaluate new and different

products. And that group also operates a food technology

lab where they can process different products into new food

ingredients that they can have the sensory panel actually evaluate.

We also have market intelligence experts in that team as well, so they can

provide intelligence at the start or around

product development for different companies or even for our own products

to help us sort of navigate that space as well.

We have what we call the plant responses and environment team, and this is the

team that you think of when you think of tree production,

food production. Like, these are our production experts. They also

have a strong portfolio around urban trees

and soils and substrates. So these are, you know, like

very much focused on production environment as well as production inputs.

We have our Biological Crop Protection team, and this is the team that

operates that advanced pathology lab. So we have pathology

experts, we also have entomologists, and really

strongly versed in existing pests in the greenhouse

sector, as well as new and emerging pests, both in field and greenhouse,

as well as all the fun pathogens and diseases and things like that.

We have our Horticultural Technology Solutions team, and this is a team that is

really focused on, you know, things like the hardware and

software of new tools for the sectors. So think robotics,

think automated sensing, think all of the fun

softwares and vision systems and things like that that growers

are using. It's really our team that's going to strongly support

our strategic initiative on digital

transformation in the horticulture sector. So, you know,

all of the fun decision-making tools that growers can access now, this

team is really well-versed in that. We have a strong

biochemistry team, so focused on things like metabolomics

and biochemistry, not just of plants but of products.

So, you know, they can look at, you know, they could look at flume,

for instance, that comes out of the tomato wash station, or they could

look at the biochemistry of a pest or a disease or the

complex interactions of a plant plus pest plus

environment. So all that fun stuff. So we have a really

strong group of experts. And the way that

we see ourselves is not someone's job to come in and

package the team. That's our job. Like someone's job, if you want to work

with us, is to come with your problem or your opportunity. And we

build the bench strength around you to make sure that we're answering

that question effectively for you. And sometimes you may not

know what the question is, or you you may not, you may not exactly

know where you want to go with it. And that's where we can help pathfind

with some of these things. Okay. So I was, so I'm just going to

ask also, wow, that is so many

different, I wasn't expecting there to be that many different departments, but I

guess like you guys have 200 acres. So that's, yeah.

So that, that is in horticulture. Horticulture has over

200 crops. So, I mean, you gotta be— not that we

can touch them all, but we've got to be ready to tackle the

challenges, right? So yeah, very, very

interesting. If someone wanted to work

with Vineland, what would be, you know, the

process to do that, and how do you guys go around evaluating if

you're a good fit? Yeah, I mean, if people want to

visit our new website, we have a new website launch where you can

interact directly with sort of our business development team

and go through that way. That's a great way to do it. People can contact

me. We usually find sometimes it's just, you know, you bump into

someone at a trade show and they ask a question and that's how something

evolves. But easiest path for listeners is

probably just to visit VinelandResearch.com and

you can find the Work With Us tab there and it'll just

sort of push you right through the system. And then we set up a conversation

to figure out like what is your unique challenge you're facing. And then,

you know, if, if we're not able to support it, usually we can connect you

with who can. So that's great. That's sort of the network discussion we had at

the beginning where it's like, if not us, we usually know who can

support it. Um, but a lot of times, you know, we're happy to, to be

able to jump on those things. So, and sometimes it's, uh, you know,

it's looking at things like a joint funding opportunity. Lots of times it's

just client-driven projects where someone says, we have this problem and we

just build a project around it so we can help them move at the speed

of business. We're coming up to, to the end of

the hour and I know you are very busy. So I don't want to

take any, you know, more of your time than what we said.

So I think I'm going to start to just wrap it up here, but

based on all of your experience, you know, working in Vineland,

working in this sector, What do you think is your proudest

moment being in this research and development

space and why? Oh my goodness, that's a

tough one. Yeah.

So, full disclosure, I was a scientist and then I was sort of a

director of a program before I took on the VP role. So, I have to

maybe temper this by maybe two proud moments. So,

I think one of the proudest moments in a previous role was when we

launched the Greening the Landscape Research Consortium. And that was,

that was something we created because we saw a need in the sector with

respect to urban tree survival and

really identified the fact that, yes, you know, it's lacking the

evidence base, but it's also lacking sort of the

connectivity, like we talked about building that

ecosystem. So we're in the second phase of that. I don't run

that directly anymore. Dr. Rhoda DeYoung runs

that now. But to me, that's going strong. And to me, that's such a success

because it's a need. And the

ecosystem we built is like a self-organizing machine there.

Like, they have much interest and they're so connected.

And we get to, you know, we get to continue to do amazing research

to hand directly off to practitioners. And so, you know, when I drive

through cities where I know they've implemented specifications that

we've developed, that to me is like real-world success. Seeing

it in, in real life is, is the best part for me. So that's fun.

That's amazing. And also, I think, I love

trees in the city, so thank you for doing that. We need

more of them. Yes. Yeah, we do. It's like,

yeah, it's, it remains a passion for me. So that one is

extremely rewarding. And, and watching it, like you say, kind of get legs of

its own because there's so much passion in that sector to, to,

to do these things. That's been awesome. And I just,

I'm always so impressed with the team that, that runs that. So

there's that. And then I would say in my, my VP role, I think the,

like the thing that I've been most proud of over the last few years is

really watching, um, the team answer extremely

complex problems in the sector that

right now have no defined solutions. So, you know, we've been working on

some things like in the greenhouse sector right now, complex

diseases where people are just going, oh my gosh, like, how

do we possibly, you know, keep producing this crop when

we don't know the root cause of it? And, you know, we've done some really

exciting work this past year on Fusarium and peppers in

greenhouses. And that one, you know, maybe it's just because it's, it's kind of recent,

but that one, there's some really fun results coming out soon and

really exciting when I say fun, because we think we're getting

to the root cause of it, to why it's

happening. And so I think it's just those moments where I see the

team just nail it and I watch us be able, again,

it's the impact for me. It's always the impact where I get to see us

hand a solution off to a grower and say, "Here, run with it," or to

a company so that they can tailor their product to support the

sector. That's always the best part for me. Oh, this is so amazing. I feel

so inspired.

Yeah, well, it's so great because a lot of the times, you know, these

research roles that people get, they're stuck in these labs and

that's the thing that they say is what's missing is

seeing the impact of the research that they do. So it's so cool

seeing you guys have this large not-for-profit organization

doing all of this research and development and really helping

greenhouse growers, you know, everywhere solve their problems.

So yeah, I think that's really, really cool. Thank you so

much for joining the podcast today and for just

sharing all the information that you have. I think it'll be really valuable

to people who listen to this. And yeah, thank you so much.

Thank you. It was my absolute pleasure. And I, I look forward to listening

to the other episodes this season. I hope you enjoyed this

episode of Greenhouse Success Stories hosted by Trina Semenczak. Thanks to our

guests who make this all possible. Special thanks to our title sponsor,

Arnois Greenhouse. To read the full show notes for each episode, which includes an

episode summary, key takeaways, and guest resources

mentioned, please visit GreenhouseSuccess.com.