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Welcome to Blueprints for Brilliant's Coaching Insights, a
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00:00:02
podcast by coaches for coaches.
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00:00:05
Our guests share their hard won wisdom to help you grow your coaching
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business and create a life of success.
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So get ready to unlock the blueprints to your success.
Jeanne:
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Welcome everyone to our latest episode.
Jeanne:
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I am excited to introduce you to an amazing lady.
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Her name is Dr.
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Rita Fierro.
Jeanne:
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Her company is Fierro Consulting and she is a social justice leadership coach.
Jeanne:
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So welcome to the program, Rita.
Jeanne:
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It's lovely to have you.
Rita:
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Oh, it's great to be with you, Jeannie.
Rita:
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Thank you for having me.
Jeanne:
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Thank you.
Jeanne:
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So tell us a little bit about what it is to be a social justice
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leadership coach and, what was your journey to getting here?
Jeanne:
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Cause usually there's a story behind the passion behind what you do.
Rita:
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Yeah, absolutely.
Rita:
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So as a social justice consultant and coach, I equip change makers to make the
Rita:
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bigger difference that they want to make or substantial difference that they want
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to make in the face of organizations, communities, and systems that often
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resist change, even when they think that they don't have time for one more thing.
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And even when they feel like they've already been successful at one level
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and it'll take, it'll be fairly easy to replicate it at a larger level.
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So the journey that brought me here is that I have been
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an evaluator for 25 years.
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So for 25 years I've been hired by organizations in all realms
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like private companies and international organizations and the U.
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N.
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and non profits to see if they were making real difference, to measure the
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difference they were making, to measure the social impact that they were having,
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and offering suggestions to improve.
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And what I discovered after basically 20-25 years of going at this, that hint,
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oftentimes the level of solutions that people were proposing or that they were
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open to was smaller than the level of thinking that had generated the problem.
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So oftentimes, the problem was generated in people's blind spots that were there
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way before they started the program.
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And and in the world of social justice, we often talk about this as root causes.
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So if you're not addressing, if you assume that a problem is generated
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outside of its root causes, then you're going to try to fix it in a way
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that actually is almost irrelevant.
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Quick example, my first project was a welfare to work project
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that was designed to help foster parents reunite with their children.
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And it was financed by the Department of Labor and the assumption
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underneath it was if we just get these women jobs, they'll get reunited.
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It turns out that one of the root causes of families having children
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removed isn't them not having jobs, isn't poverty, but it's the
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combination of them being predominantly black and poor at the same time.
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Even after they were helped with getting jobs, they weren't able
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to get their children back, right?
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But because we were so fixated on providing working positions
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we weren't looking at trauma.
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We weren't looking at how these women were badly represented by lawyers in court and
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often not represented by lawyers in court.
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Like we weren't looking at all these other factors.
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And so I got very frustrated over 20 years of looking at programs and
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providing solutions that oftentimes the person who the report was
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going to didn't have power over.
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You may need to consider your whole organizational approach to root cause.
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You can imagine that if you have a staff of a hundred, that is
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working on getting people jobs.
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It's hard to pivot to know the problem is a different problem.
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And so what I became passionate about as a social justice coach is supporting
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changemakers to really reflect ahead of time around what is their thinking
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that is going into their initiative so that they can actually get the results
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they're looking for because they are clear about what their assumptions are.
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And they unwork those assumptions before they hire 10 people into a
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branch of program or a government that is actually not effective.
Rita:
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And I've seen that a lot.
Jeanne:
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Yeah, that's fantastic.
Jeanne:
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I think in corporations and in government, it's often making too many assumptions.
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And not actually digging into the numbers , and what's happening with the people.
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Is that kind of what you're seeing?
Rita:
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Yes, because generally people who make the decisions and people on the
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ground who are receiving the services are not in authentic, what I would call right
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relationship, are not in authentic, warm hearted, real vulnerable conversations.
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And so people who are making decisions make all sorts of judgments.
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And assumptions about what people who need help are going through and unless we
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actually take the time to sit and really hear their perspectives, which is one of
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the things that I help folks coach with is take out the top down approach and go
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okay I just came out of a coaching call now with someone and who wants to work
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in climate change in urban communities and was like I want to go in there.
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I want to speak at a library and get a bunch of people.
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And I was like, hey, yeah, you could do that.
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Or you can find someone from the community ahead of time who brings another five
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people from the community in conversation with you and with them you organize.
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Like, how do you create a group of people from the community as soon as possible
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so that you're not going top down, but you're internally informed the whole way
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so that if you have a blind spot and don't know something, then hey, guess what?
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You find out along the way.
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You don't find out 30 years later.
Jeanne:
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Yeah.
Jeanne:
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No, that totally makes sense.
Jeanne:
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It's almost like the bottom up instead of top down.
Rita:
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Yeah.
Rita:
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It's creating a bottom up.
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I think every vision is fueled by a visionary who wants to,
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either reduce harm or do good or do more than good in the world.
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And I think that's fabulous.
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I think everyone has a vision to bring into the world, just the way everyone
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has a fingerprint to bring in the world.
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And at some point of that visioning process, I think our vision has to
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be as clear as possible, but we also have to be willing to put it on the
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back burner and actually listen to the local folk and hear for where
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our vision works and doesn't work.
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And so it's like the vision leads our hearts, but we also have to be
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willing to put it aside and actually listen to local people and listen to
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people directly impacted in what it is , how they see the world, which is
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never going to be the way we see it.
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Especially if you consider that most of the people who are administrative
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positions often have had very different lives, and often very privileged lives,
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compared to folks on the ground that we go in with a savior complex trying to
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help and then do more havoc than help.
Jeanne:
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Yeah.
Jeanne:
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No that all makes sense.
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And it's a shame, but thankfully there are people like you trying to help out.
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So how do people find you?
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Like, how do they know that they need your help?
Rita:
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Oh, that's a great question.
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I'm still trying to figure that one out.
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Because I think most folks in the area of social change believe they got it.
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And there's something about how we educate folks around making a difference.
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I think that doesn't have a lot of humility to it.
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And so folks go like straight in, they found the nonprofits, found the programs.
Rita:
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Anyway right now the easiest way for folks to find me on LinkedIn.
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I post pretty regularly and I've been trying to raise awareness around the
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importance of doing this work this way or through connections and network.
Jeanne:
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Yeah.
Jeanne:
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Do you do you ever work with a lot of art students?
Jeanne:
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Because I actually have a son who's a small art college up in Maryland.
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They tend to do a lot in the area with helping out in different ways, socially to
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raise the whole environment for everyone.
Rita:
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I've actually worked with an art student some years ago.
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I've worked with a few much larger community based organizing artwork.
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Either to improve mental health conditions or just for the beauty of
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community building or the beauty of art like different arts organizations are
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working community for different reasons.
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If you look on my LinkedIn for a live on October 16th, you'll see it there.
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I've worked with art students in terms of there's a lot of pressure on art
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students probably because of their funding of trying to understand what's
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the social impact of their work.
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For a really long time I went by intellectual artist,
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I'm an artist at heart.
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So it's a world that's the way art and social justice connects is
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something that's very dear to my heart.
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I play the guitar, I sculpt, I paint, I dab.
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I would say multidisciplinary dabber.
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And I love working with art students to help them really get clear about.
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Actually, there's more than one art student I've done this with, but like how
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does social change happen in their work?
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What exactly is the impact that they're trying to have?
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What is the impact they are having?
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How do they get more than anecdotal evidence to start seeing a pattern
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of what is it that they can provide?
Rita:
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Yeah that's fun work.
Jeanne:
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I love that.
Jeanne:
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Yeah, it's hard because I think sometimes we don't know the impact.
Jeanne:
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I remember one of my kids did a recycling winter recycling
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plant to learn more about it.
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It was part of a project they were working on.
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And it turns out there was a huge percentage of things that cannot be
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recycled, even though they're going there.
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So in our homes, we think, Oh, this is all going to a great place.
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I'm doing my part.
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But the real story is, it's not always enough maybe.
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And maybe there's more that we can learn about how it's handled and how
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we could do better on our side to provide it to, the people who are
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picking it up, that type of thing.
Rita:
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Yeah, and one of the things that really surprised me in this
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documentary is that also the just washing polyester releases microplastics
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in the water, just washing it.
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So every time that we wash a polyester shirt, of which, especially in the U.
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S., we have many because synthetics have gotten raged since the 70s.
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Yeah, microplastics are released into water.
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So there's also a polluting of the water that happens even when
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we haven't given it away yet.
Jeanne:
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Wow.
Jeanne:
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So much to understand.
Jeanne:
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Now, do you talk about that?
Jeanne:
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Like on your website or do you have, YouTube channel or blogging
Jeanne:
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or anything along those lines?
Rita:
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Yeah, I was saying I have a strong LinkedIn presence, but all
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generally on LinkedIn, I put short videos that then get posted on YouTube.
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So I release a video every week on YouTube.
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And it's not specifically on the impact of what we were talking about.
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It was the impact of pollution, but on different aspects of being a social
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justice change maker and like different blind spots that we don't quite consider
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because we think it's not part of the work or we're really taken with the
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day to day and things that we need to reflect on or do differently to do better.
Jeanne:
00:11:07
Okay.
Jeanne:
00:11:08
So tell me a little bit more about the change makers.
Jeanne:
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Like who would you say would be someone that you would love to be
Jeanne:
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able to help or work with so we can all keep an ear out and an eye
Jeanne:
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out for people who need your help?
Rita:
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I love working with changemakers who are frustrated
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with the state of current affairs.
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Typically, they work their butt off, or either have had some level
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of impact, but they're frustrated.
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Basically, they see everything that goes wrong.
Rita:
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It's kinda in some ways, it's the Debbie Downers with a big like with
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a big shine in their heart, right?
Rita:
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It's the people who are generally positive and want to see the glass
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half full and try hard to do that, but find out that there is a world that
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constrains every move they make and the more they try to be effective and do
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well, the more they get smacked down.
Rita:
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Those are the folks I'm most passionate about working with.
Rita:
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Because I've studied systemic racism for 30 years now.
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20 years putting it in practice with organizations.
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And I'm really good at finding a pathway through, because the dynamics
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of opposition are generally dynamics around race, gender, or class.
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That's generally what we're facing is some rigidity because our nation
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was born to benefit not everyone.
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There are structures that are embedded in our institutions that kind of smack
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you down when you try to do well for people who didn't find the country.
Jeanne:
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I love that.
Jeanne:
00:12:34
So specifically would you say that a lot of them are nonprofits or are
Jeanne:
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they big organizations and small, groups within an organization?
Jeanne:
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Are they individuals?
Jeanne:
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Can they be any of them?
Rita:
00:12:46
They can be individuals.
Rita:
00:12:47
In fact, one of the reasons I've started calling my practice more coaching versus
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consulting is that I work a lot with groups, but oftentimes leaders want
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to do the group thing but are looking for a bridge between what they see
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and how do I get a group of people in my organization to be on board with
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me so we can do something together?
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And I think oftentimes that's where coaching comes in really handy, is
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when creating that bridge between what possible and actually getting there.
Rita:
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I'm really good at treading a pathway between what is possible or what you
Rita:
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know is possible and how do we get there.
Rita:
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So I would say nonprofits, but there's also a growing number of people in the
Rita:
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business world who are more focused on doing better either they're calling each
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of themselves like regenerative business or triple bottom line, like there's a
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lot people put profit planet, right?
Rita:
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There are a lot of businesses that are talking about leaving a really
Rita:
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positive impact in the world.
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And so I'm also interested in working with those folks.
Rita:
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I don't work with folks who do check the boxes initiatives we just
Rita:
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want to look good, but we don't really want to make any difference.
Rita:
00:14:00
I'm not the person who's not going to challenge you so you can look good.
Rita:
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That's not me.
Rita:
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But if people are genuinely and authentically want to make a
Rita:
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difference then I can work with them.
Jeanne:
00:14:11
I love that.
Jeanne:
00:14:11
So tell us a little bit about your book.
Jeanne:
00:14:13
You have a book published, don't you?
Rita:
00:14:15
I do.
Rita:
00:14:16
It's called Digging Up the Seeds of White Supremacy.
Rita:
00:14:19
I was alluding to this earlier when I was saying I studied systemic racism
Rita:
00:14:23
for 30 years, is that oftentimes, we white folk don't see the system as one.
Rita:
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But if you ask a person of color, for the most part, you ask them,
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you start talking about the system.
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Most folks of color will just keep listening.
Rita:
00:14:39
Most white folks stop listening.
Rita:
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And start asking what system are you talking about
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00:14:44
education or criminal justice?
Rita:
00:14:47
Are you talking about, pollution, are you talking about the health
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00:14:51
department or the natural disaster?
Rita:
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Like which part of the system are you talking about?
Rita:
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'Cause we assume that different branches of the system operate in different ways.
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And what folks of color know in their heart and bones that
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the system operates as one.
Rita:
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Because most folks of color have experiences across different systems being
Rita:
00:15:14
mistreated and being demeaned anyway.
Rita:
00:15:16
And so one of the things that I really wanted to do with this book called
Rita:
00:15:20
Digging Up the Seeds of White Supremacy, and the image on the front internal
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00:15:25
flap and the back internal flap is this tree where different branches of
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00:15:30
the tree are the different systems.
Rita:
00:15:31
And the question in the journey that I went on writing this
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book is, If the fruits are inequality, which we see every day.
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I started writing the book a week before George Floyd was murdered.
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If we know that, we know these results from every day, from every system, and I'm
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00:15:50
a researcher, so I could run down folks of color are more likely to be homeless, are
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00:15:55
more likely to be in special ed, are more likely to die in infancy, are more likely
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00:16:00
to be are more likely to be incarcerated more likely to be like there's this more
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00:16:04
likely is the recipe is that common.
Rita:
00:16:07
So if these are the fruits.
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00:16:08
What's the seed?
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00:16:09
And what I did was go back into 500 years of our history and look for the
Rita:
00:16:15
first law in each of those systems.
Rita:
00:16:19
Because laws get passed because groups of people are trying to make a difference.
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And I wanted to see what were those groups of people trying to do?
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00:16:28
What need were they trying to meet?
Rita:
00:16:30
And we know as organizational development folks that the intention that drives
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00:16:35
an organization outlives the founder.
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So I wanted to see when these systems were founded, what was the
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00:16:42
intention that was driving folks?
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And I found three, safety for two systems, control for four systems,
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and saviorism for four other systems.
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And I would argue that all three of those are rooted in fear.
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So basically, our current system was rooted in fear.
Rita:
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The fear of Europeans trying to get away from where they came from.
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00:17:08
The fear of being decimated by Native Americans, who, of
Rita:
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course, righteously rebelled from everything that we put them through.
Rita:
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But it was just this constant fear.
Rita:
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And the big question that I'm sitting with is what would a
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00:17:23
society not based on fear look like?
Rita:
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And digging up the seeds of white supremacy is about charting a pathway
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through for American society to actually build a society that isn't fear based.
Rita:
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Because we can do so much better, I believe, in humanity
Rita:
00:17:38
so much more than that.
Rita:
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This isn't the best we can do.
Rita:
00:17:41
It just really isn't.
Jeanne:
00:17:43
No, I wholeheartedly agree.
Jeanne:
00:17:45
So did you solve it in your book?
Rita:
00:17:46
I gave a process in the book.
Rita:
00:17:48
There's an article that I read after, wrote afterwards with
Rita:
00:17:52
a lawyer where we laid out.
Rita:
00:17:54
The lawyer is Carla Kuhl and we, Carla Kuhl and I laid out a 25 year
Rita:
00:17:59
process to rewrite our constitution.
Jeanne:
00:18:02
Wow.
Rita:
00:18:02
And it's possible.
Rita:
00:18:04
We have to stop thinking in four year election cycles.
Rita:
00:18:07
We have to start thinking about the common good beyond individual parties.
Rita:
00:18:11
But it's possible.
Rita:
00:18:12
I don't think the society is working very well for many.
Rita:
00:18:15
It may be working well for the 1 percent at the top, and
Rita:
00:18:18
the 1 percent of that percent.
Rita:
00:18:20
But other than that, I don't think the society is actually
Rita:
00:18:22
working well for most Americans.
Jeanne:
00:18:24
So we got some improvement to make.
Rita:
00:18:25
Yeah, and I think there's a way to build something completely new.
Jeanne:
00:18:30
Ooh.
Jeanne:
00:18:30
I love that.
Jeanne:
00:18:31
We'll have to get your book and find out what your plan is.
Rita:
00:18:34
Yes.
Jeanne:
00:18:36
So we will put a link to your book in the show notes
Jeanne:
00:18:39
and a link to your website.
Jeanne:
00:18:41
And my last question for you is if you could provide one tip to make the world
Jeanne:
00:18:46
a better place, what would that be?
Rita:
00:18:48
Be willing to look in the mirror.
Rita:
00:18:49
I think there are so many change makers that mean the expression, the road to
Rita:
00:18:54
hell is paved with good intentions.
Rita:
00:18:56
It's more awake and aware to me, like I'm more aware of
Rita:
00:19:00
that now than I've ever been.
Rita:
00:19:01
We do a lot of harm when we tread quickly thinking we do good, but
Rita:
00:19:06
our own assumptions are unexamined.
Rita:
00:19:10
We just do a lot of harm and we have to be willing to look ourselves in
Rita:
00:19:14
the mirror and question everything.
Rita:
00:19:17
Not to leave it questioned forever, but to actually find what
Rita:
00:19:21
is the core of who I am, right?
Rita:
00:19:23
What is that core beyond fear of who I am in the world and the thumbprint or
Rita:
00:19:29
the footprint that I'm designed to make?
Rita:
00:19:31
What is the unique contribution that I have to bring to the world.
Rita:
00:19:36
And I don't think we find the answer to that question which is the most
Rita:
00:19:40
fulfilling answer once we find it.
Rita:
00:19:43
But I don't think we find the answer to that question unless we're willing
Rita:
00:19:46
to sit with a really uncomfortable reflection in the mirror of the
Rita:
00:19:50
all the masks that we put up.
Rita:
00:19:52
To cover up that core.
Jeanne:
00:19:54
Fantastic.
Jeanne:
00:19:54
No, I suspect that you're probably very on the mark with that.
Jeanne:
00:19:59
And I totally get that, it does start with fear.
Jeanne:
00:20:01
We're afraid that, what's somebody going to say about us?
Jeanne:
00:20:04
What are they going to think about us?
Jeanne:
00:20:06
What if it doesn't work?
Jeanne:
00:20:07
What if, I can't make the change I want to, what if?
Jeanne:
00:20:10
But it's making those steps forward.
Jeanne:
00:20:14
And in the right direction.
Rita:
00:20:15
Yeah.
Rita:
00:20:15
I think it's even more granular than that.
Rita:
00:20:18
I think it starts from what if I lose my mother's love?
Rita:
00:20:21
What if I lose my father's love?
Rita:
00:20:23
There's so much about supporting business as usual.
Rita:
00:20:27
That's about not rocking the boat.
Rita:
00:20:28
And we learned that at home.
Rita:
00:20:30
So what does it mean to, and I think in particular white folks at this point.
Rita:
00:20:35
It's like we are taught how to not rock the boat at a really early age.
Rita:
00:20:39
And it's fascinating to me to watch change makers.
Rita:
00:20:43
Sometimes the most radical change makers who say they're ready to rock
Rita:
00:20:46
the boat, but then not willing to look themselves in the mirror and looking at
Rita:
00:20:50
their own, at our own concepts of love.
Rita:
00:20:54
And who are we trying to grasp for and what are we scared to lose?
Rita:
00:20:59
And what are we willing to give up for it?
Jeanne:
00:21:00
Wow.
Jeanne:
00:21:01
You have left us with an amazing amount of things to ponder, to think
Jeanne:
00:21:05
about and ways that hopefully we can all make the world a better place.
Jeanne:
00:21:08
Rita, this has been such a pleasure.
Jeanne:
00:21:10
Thank you so much for joining me today.
Jeanne:
00:21:12
Thanks for joining us today on Blueprints for Brilliant's Coaching Insights.
Jeanne:
00:21:16
We hope you're leaving this episode with inspiration to take your coaching
Jeanne:
00:21:19
business and your life to the next level.
Jeanne:
00:21:21
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Jeanne:
00:21:24
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Jeanne:
00:21:27
Thanks, and we'll see you in the next episode.