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Social Justice and Leadership Coaching: Measuring Social Impact with Rita Fierro
Episode 5212th February 2025 • Blueprints for Brilliance: Coaching Insights • Kirsten Graham and Jeanne Willson
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How can leaders drive meaningful change in the realm of social justice? In this inspiring episode, we sit down with Rita Fierro, an expert in leadership coaching and organizational transformation, to explore the strategies needed to address systemic challenges and measure real social impact.

Discover how authentic community engagement, transformative social programs, and organizational change can be leveraged to create equity and tackle pressing issues like microplastics and environmental justice. Whether you’re a business leader, entrepreneur, or change-maker, this episode provides actionable insights to elevate your impact.

What You’ll Discover in This Episode:

  • How leadership coaching can address systemic challenges in organizations and communities
  • The importance of measuring social impact and driving equity-focused outcomes
  • Insights into root cause analysis for creating transformative social programs
  • Strategies for authentic community engagement to build trust and inclusivity
  • The intersection of microplastics and environmental justice

Key Takeaways:

  • Learn actionable strategies to create organizational change for equity
  • Understand how to approach systemic challenges with a solutions-oriented mindset
  • Gain tools for empowering communities through transformative programs and leadership

🌟 Ready to lead with impact? Watch now to learn how to transform challenges into meaningful social change.

Helpful Links:

Fierro Consulting LLC

The Marketing VA Advantage 

Six Figure Business Coaching 

Mastering Online Marketing for Entrepreneurs

Double Your Income with a Marketing VA, even on a tight budget

Transcripts

Speaker:

Welcome to Blueprints for Brilliant's Coaching Insights, a

Speaker:

podcast by coaches for coaches.

Speaker:

Our guests share their hard won wisdom to help you grow your coaching

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business and create a life of success.

Speaker:

So get ready to unlock the blueprints to your success.

Jeanne:

Welcome everyone to our latest episode.

Jeanne:

I am excited to introduce you to an amazing lady.

Jeanne:

Her name is Dr.

Jeanne:

Rita Fierro.

Jeanne:

Her company is Fierro Consulting and she is a social justice leadership coach.

Jeanne:

So welcome to the program, Rita.

Jeanne:

It's lovely to have you.

Rita:

Oh, it's great to be with you, Jeannie.

Rita:

Thank you for having me.

Jeanne:

Thank you.

Jeanne:

So tell us a little bit about what it is to be a social justice

Jeanne:

leadership coach and, what was your journey to getting here?

Jeanne:

Cause usually there's a story behind the passion behind what you do.

Rita:

Yeah, absolutely.

Rita:

So as a social justice consultant and coach, I equip change makers to make the

Rita:

bigger difference that they want to make or substantial difference that they want

Rita:

to make in the face of organizations, communities, and systems that often

Rita:

resist change, even when they think that they don't have time for one more thing.

Rita:

And even when they feel like they've already been successful at one level

Rita:

and it'll take, it'll be fairly easy to replicate it at a larger level.

Rita:

So the journey that brought me here is that I have been

Rita:

an evaluator for 25 years.

Rita:

So for 25 years I've been hired by organizations in all realms

Rita:

like private companies and international organizations and the U.

Rita:

N.

Rita:

and non profits to see if they were making real difference, to measure the

Rita:

difference they were making, to measure the social impact that they were having,

Rita:

and offering suggestions to improve.

Rita:

And what I discovered after basically 20-25 years of going at this, that hint,

Rita:

oftentimes the level of solutions that people were proposing or that they were

Rita:

open to was smaller than the level of thinking that had generated the problem.

Rita:

So oftentimes, the problem was generated in people's blind spots that were there

Rita:

way before they started the program.

Rita:

And and in the world of social justice, we often talk about this as root causes.

Rita:

So if you're not addressing, if you assume that a problem is generated

Rita:

outside of its root causes, then you're going to try to fix it in a way

Rita:

that actually is almost irrelevant.

Rita:

Quick example, my first project was a welfare to work project

Rita:

that was designed to help foster parents reunite with their children.

Rita:

And it was financed by the Department of Labor and the assumption

Rita:

underneath it was if we just get these women jobs, they'll get reunited.

Rita:

It turns out that one of the root causes of families having children

Rita:

removed isn't them not having jobs, isn't poverty, but it's the

Rita:

combination of them being predominantly black and poor at the same time.

Rita:

Even after they were helped with getting jobs, they weren't able

Rita:

to get their children back, right?

Rita:

But because we were so fixated on providing working positions

Rita:

we weren't looking at trauma.

Rita:

We weren't looking at how these women were badly represented by lawyers in court and

Rita:

often not represented by lawyers in court.

Rita:

Like we weren't looking at all these other factors.

Rita:

And so I got very frustrated over 20 years of looking at programs and

Rita:

providing solutions that oftentimes the person who the report was

Rita:

going to didn't have power over.

Rita:

You may need to consider your whole organizational approach to root cause.

Rita:

You can imagine that if you have a staff of a hundred, that is

Rita:

working on getting people jobs.

Rita:

It's hard to pivot to know the problem is a different problem.

Rita:

And so what I became passionate about as a social justice coach is supporting

Rita:

changemakers to really reflect ahead of time around what is their thinking

Rita:

that is going into their initiative so that they can actually get the results

Rita:

they're looking for because they are clear about what their assumptions are.

Rita:

And they unwork those assumptions before they hire 10 people into a

Rita:

branch of program or a government that is actually not effective.

Rita:

And I've seen that a lot.

Jeanne:

Yeah, that's fantastic.

Jeanne:

I think in corporations and in government, it's often making too many assumptions.

Jeanne:

And not actually digging into the numbers , and what's happening with the people.

Jeanne:

Is that kind of what you're seeing?

Rita:

Yes, because generally people who make the decisions and people on the

Rita:

ground who are receiving the services are not in authentic, what I would call right

Rita:

relationship, are not in authentic, warm hearted, real vulnerable conversations.

Rita:

And so people who are making decisions make all sorts of judgments.

Rita:

And assumptions about what people who need help are going through and unless we

Rita:

actually take the time to sit and really hear their perspectives, which is one of

Rita:

the things that I help folks coach with is take out the top down approach and go

Rita:

okay I just came out of a coaching call now with someone and who wants to work

Rita:

in climate change in urban communities and was like I want to go in there.

Rita:

I want to speak at a library and get a bunch of people.

Rita:

And I was like, hey, yeah, you could do that.

Rita:

Or you can find someone from the community ahead of time who brings another five

Rita:

people from the community in conversation with you and with them you organize.

Rita:

Like, how do you create a group of people from the community as soon as possible

Rita:

so that you're not going top down, but you're internally informed the whole way

Rita:

so that if you have a blind spot and don't know something, then hey, guess what?

Rita:

You find out along the way.

Rita:

You don't find out 30 years later.

Jeanne:

Yeah.

Jeanne:

No, that totally makes sense.

Jeanne:

It's almost like the bottom up instead of top down.

Rita:

Yeah.

Rita:

It's creating a bottom up.

Rita:

I think every vision is fueled by a visionary who wants to,

Rita:

either reduce harm or do good or do more than good in the world.

Rita:

And I think that's fabulous.

Rita:

I think everyone has a vision to bring into the world, just the way everyone

Rita:

has a fingerprint to bring in the world.

Rita:

And at some point of that visioning process, I think our vision has to

Rita:

be as clear as possible, but we also have to be willing to put it on the

Rita:

back burner and actually listen to the local folk and hear for where

Rita:

our vision works and doesn't work.

Rita:

And so it's like the vision leads our hearts, but we also have to be

Rita:

willing to put it aside and actually listen to local people and listen to

Rita:

people directly impacted in what it is , how they see the world, which is

Rita:

never going to be the way we see it.

Rita:

Especially if you consider that most of the people who are administrative

Rita:

positions often have had very different lives, and often very privileged lives,

Rita:

compared to folks on the ground that we go in with a savior complex trying to

Rita:

help and then do more havoc than help.

Jeanne:

Yeah.

Jeanne:

No that all makes sense.

Jeanne:

And it's a shame, but thankfully there are people like you trying to help out.

Jeanne:

So how do people find you?

Jeanne:

Like, how do they know that they need your help?

Rita:

Oh, that's a great question.

Rita:

I'm still trying to figure that one out.

Rita:

Because I think most folks in the area of social change believe they got it.

Rita:

And there's something about how we educate folks around making a difference.

Rita:

I think that doesn't have a lot of humility to it.

Rita:

And so folks go like straight in, they found the nonprofits, found the programs.

Rita:

Anyway right now the easiest way for folks to find me on LinkedIn.

Rita:

I post pretty regularly and I've been trying to raise awareness around the

Rita:

importance of doing this work this way or through connections and network.

Jeanne:

Yeah.

Jeanne:

Do you do you ever work with a lot of art students?

Jeanne:

Because I actually have a son who's a small art college up in Maryland.

Jeanne:

They tend to do a lot in the area with helping out in different ways, socially to

Jeanne:

raise the whole environment for everyone.

Rita:

Yeah, absolutely.

Rita:

I've actually worked with an art student some years ago.

Rita:

I've worked with a few much larger community based organizing artwork.

Rita:

Either to improve mental health conditions or just for the beauty of

Rita:

community building or the beauty of art like different arts organizations are

Rita:

working community for different reasons.

Rita:

If you look on my LinkedIn for a live on October 16th, you'll see it there.

Rita:

I've worked with art students in terms of there's a lot of pressure on art

Rita:

students probably because of their funding of trying to understand what's

Rita:

the social impact of their work.

Rita:

For a really long time I went by intellectual artist,

Rita:

I'm an artist at heart.

Rita:

So it's a world that's the way art and social justice connects is

Rita:

something that's very dear to my heart.

Rita:

I play the guitar, I sculpt, I paint, I dab.

Rita:

I would say multidisciplinary dabber.

Rita:

And I love working with art students to help them really get clear about.

Rita:

Actually, there's more than one art student I've done this with, but like how

Rita:

does social change happen in their work?

Rita:

What exactly is the impact that they're trying to have?

Rita:

What is the impact they are having?

Rita:

How do they get more than anecdotal evidence to start seeing a pattern

Rita:

of what is it that they can provide?

Rita:

Yeah that's fun work.

Jeanne:

I love that.

Jeanne:

Yeah, it's hard because I think sometimes we don't know the impact.

Jeanne:

I remember one of my kids did a recycling winter recycling

Jeanne:

plant to learn more about it.

Jeanne:

It was part of a project they were working on.

Jeanne:

And it turns out there was a huge percentage of things that cannot be

Jeanne:

recycled, even though they're going there.

Jeanne:

So in our homes, we think, Oh, this is all going to a great place.

Jeanne:

I'm doing my part.

Jeanne:

But the real story is, it's not always enough maybe.

Jeanne:

And maybe there's more that we can learn about how it's handled and how

Jeanne:

we could do better on our side to provide it to, the people who are

Jeanne:

picking it up, that type of thing.

Rita:

Yeah, and one of the things that really surprised me in this

Rita:

documentary is that also the just washing polyester releases microplastics

Rita:

in the water, just washing it.

Rita:

So every time that we wash a polyester shirt, of which, especially in the U.

Rita:

S., we have many because synthetics have gotten raged since the 70s.

Rita:

Yeah, microplastics are released into water.

Rita:

So there's also a polluting of the water that happens even when

Rita:

we haven't given it away yet.

Jeanne:

Wow.

Jeanne:

So much to understand.

Jeanne:

Now, do you talk about that?

Jeanne:

Like on your website or do you have, YouTube channel or blogging

Jeanne:

or anything along those lines?

Rita:

Yeah, I was saying I have a strong LinkedIn presence, but all

Rita:

generally on LinkedIn, I put short videos that then get posted on YouTube.

Rita:

So I release a video every week on YouTube.

Rita:

And it's not specifically on the impact of what we were talking about.

Rita:

It was the impact of pollution, but on different aspects of being a social

Rita:

justice change maker and like different blind spots that we don't quite consider

Rita:

because we think it's not part of the work or we're really taken with the

Rita:

day to day and things that we need to reflect on or do differently to do better.

Jeanne:

Okay.

Jeanne:

So tell me a little bit more about the change makers.

Jeanne:

Like who would you say would be someone that you would love to be

Jeanne:

able to help or work with so we can all keep an ear out and an eye

Jeanne:

out for people who need your help?

Rita:

I love working with changemakers who are frustrated

Rita:

with the state of current affairs.

Rita:

Typically, they work their butt off, or either have had some level

Rita:

of impact, but they're frustrated.

Rita:

Basically, they see everything that goes wrong.

Rita:

It's kinda in some ways, it's the Debbie Downers with a big like with

Rita:

a big shine in their heart, right?

Rita:

It's the people who are generally positive and want to see the glass

Rita:

half full and try hard to do that, but find out that there is a world that

Rita:

constrains every move they make and the more they try to be effective and do

Rita:

well, the more they get smacked down.

Rita:

Those are the folks I'm most passionate about working with.

Rita:

Because I've studied systemic racism for 30 years now.

Rita:

20 years putting it in practice with organizations.

Rita:

And I'm really good at finding a pathway through, because the dynamics

Rita:

of opposition are generally dynamics around race, gender, or class.

Rita:

That's generally what we're facing is some rigidity because our nation

Rita:

was born to benefit not everyone.

Rita:

There are structures that are embedded in our institutions that kind of smack

Rita:

you down when you try to do well for people who didn't find the country.

Jeanne:

I love that.

Jeanne:

So specifically would you say that a lot of them are nonprofits or are

Jeanne:

they big organizations and small, groups within an organization?

Jeanne:

Are they individuals?

Jeanne:

Can they be any of them?

Rita:

They can be individuals.

Rita:

In fact, one of the reasons I've started calling my practice more coaching versus

Rita:

consulting is that I work a lot with groups, but oftentimes leaders want

Rita:

to do the group thing but are looking for a bridge between what they see

Rita:

and how do I get a group of people in my organization to be on board with

Rita:

me so we can do something together?

Rita:

And I think oftentimes that's where coaching comes in really handy, is

Rita:

when creating that bridge between what possible and actually getting there.

Rita:

I'm really good at treading a pathway between what is possible or what you

Rita:

know is possible and how do we get there.

Rita:

So I would say nonprofits, but there's also a growing number of people in the

Rita:

business world who are more focused on doing better either they're calling each

Rita:

of themselves like regenerative business or triple bottom line, like there's a

Rita:

lot people put profit planet, right?

Rita:

There are a lot of businesses that are talking about leaving a really

Rita:

positive impact in the world.

Rita:

And so I'm also interested in working with those folks.

Rita:

I don't work with folks who do check the boxes initiatives we just

Rita:

want to look good, but we don't really want to make any difference.

Rita:

I'm not the person who's not going to challenge you so you can look good.

Rita:

That's not me.

Rita:

But if people are genuinely and authentically want to make a

Rita:

difference then I can work with them.

Jeanne:

I love that.

Jeanne:

So tell us a little bit about your book.

Jeanne:

You have a book published, don't you?

Rita:

I do.

Rita:

It's called Digging Up the Seeds of White Supremacy.

Rita:

I was alluding to this earlier when I was saying I studied systemic racism

Rita:

for 30 years, is that oftentimes, we white folk don't see the system as one.

Rita:

But if you ask a person of color, for the most part, you ask them,

Rita:

you start talking about the system.

Rita:

Most folks of color will just keep listening.

Rita:

Most white folks stop listening.

Rita:

And start asking what system are you talking about

Rita:

education or criminal justice?

Rita:

Are you talking about, pollution, are you talking about the health

Rita:

department or the natural disaster?

Rita:

Like which part of the system are you talking about?

Rita:

'Cause we assume that different branches of the system operate in different ways.

Rita:

And what folks of color know in their heart and bones that

Rita:

the system operates as one.

Rita:

Because most folks of color have experiences across different systems being

Rita:

mistreated and being demeaned anyway.

Rita:

And so one of the things that I really wanted to do with this book called

Rita:

Digging Up the Seeds of White Supremacy, and the image on the front internal

Rita:

flap and the back internal flap is this tree where different branches of

Rita:

the tree are the different systems.

Rita:

And the question in the journey that I went on writing this

Rita:

book is, If the fruits are inequality, which we see every day.

Rita:

I started writing the book a week before George Floyd was murdered.

Rita:

If we know that, we know these results from every day, from every system, and I'm

Rita:

a researcher, so I could run down folks of color are more likely to be homeless, are

Rita:

more likely to be in special ed, are more likely to die in infancy, are more likely

Rita:

to be are more likely to be incarcerated more likely to be like there's this more

Rita:

likely is the recipe is that common.

Rita:

So if these are the fruits.

Rita:

What's the seed?

Rita:

And what I did was go back into 500 years of our history and look for the

Rita:

first law in each of those systems.

Rita:

Because laws get passed because groups of people are trying to make a difference.

Rita:

And I wanted to see what were those groups of people trying to do?

Rita:

What need were they trying to meet?

Rita:

And we know as organizational development folks that the intention that drives

Rita:

an organization outlives the founder.

Rita:

So I wanted to see when these systems were founded, what was the

Rita:

intention that was driving folks?

Rita:

And I found three, safety for two systems, control for four systems,

Rita:

and saviorism for four other systems.

Rita:

And I would argue that all three of those are rooted in fear.

Rita:

So basically, our current system was rooted in fear.

Rita:

The fear of Europeans trying to get away from where they came from.

Rita:

The fear of being decimated by Native Americans, who, of

Rita:

course, righteously rebelled from everything that we put them through.

Rita:

But it was just this constant fear.

Rita:

And the big question that I'm sitting with is what would a

Rita:

society not based on fear look like?

Rita:

And digging up the seeds of white supremacy is about charting a pathway

Rita:

through for American society to actually build a society that isn't fear based.

Rita:

Because we can do so much better, I believe, in humanity

Rita:

so much more than that.

Rita:

This isn't the best we can do.

Rita:

It just really isn't.

Jeanne:

No, I wholeheartedly agree.

Jeanne:

So did you solve it in your book?

Rita:

I gave a process in the book.

Rita:

There's an article that I read after, wrote afterwards with

Rita:

a lawyer where we laid out.

Rita:

The lawyer is Carla Kuhl and we, Carla Kuhl and I laid out a 25 year

Rita:

process to rewrite our constitution.

Jeanne:

Wow.

Rita:

And it's possible.

Rita:

We have to stop thinking in four year election cycles.

Rita:

We have to start thinking about the common good beyond individual parties.

Rita:

But it's possible.

Rita:

I don't think the society is working very well for many.

Rita:

It may be working well for the 1 percent at the top, and

Rita:

the 1 percent of that percent.

Rita:

But other than that, I don't think the society is actually

Rita:

working well for most Americans.

Jeanne:

So we got some improvement to make.

Rita:

Yeah, and I think there's a way to build something completely new.

Jeanne:

Ooh.

Jeanne:

I love that.

Jeanne:

We'll have to get your book and find out what your plan is.

Rita:

Yes.

Jeanne:

So we will put a link to your book in the show notes

Jeanne:

and a link to your website.

Jeanne:

And my last question for you is if you could provide one tip to make the world

Jeanne:

a better place, what would that be?

Rita:

Be willing to look in the mirror.

Rita:

I think there are so many change makers that mean the expression, the road to

Rita:

hell is paved with good intentions.

Rita:

It's more awake and aware to me, like I'm more aware of

Rita:

that now than I've ever been.

Rita:

We do a lot of harm when we tread quickly thinking we do good, but

Rita:

our own assumptions are unexamined.

Rita:

We just do a lot of harm and we have to be willing to look ourselves in

Rita:

the mirror and question everything.

Rita:

Not to leave it questioned forever, but to actually find what

Rita:

is the core of who I am, right?

Rita:

What is that core beyond fear of who I am in the world and the thumbprint or

Rita:

the footprint that I'm designed to make?

Rita:

What is the unique contribution that I have to bring to the world.

Rita:

And I don't think we find the answer to that question which is the most

Rita:

fulfilling answer once we find it.

Rita:

But I don't think we find the answer to that question unless we're willing

Rita:

to sit with a really uncomfortable reflection in the mirror of the

Rita:

all the masks that we put up.

Rita:

To cover up that core.

Jeanne:

Fantastic.

Jeanne:

No, I suspect that you're probably very on the mark with that.

Jeanne:

And I totally get that, it does start with fear.

Jeanne:

We're afraid that, what's somebody going to say about us?

Jeanne:

What are they going to think about us?

Jeanne:

What if it doesn't work?

Jeanne:

What if, I can't make the change I want to, what if?

Jeanne:

But it's making those steps forward.

Jeanne:

And in the right direction.

Rita:

Yeah.

Rita:

I think it's even more granular than that.

Rita:

I think it starts from what if I lose my mother's love?

Rita:

What if I lose my father's love?

Rita:

There's so much about supporting business as usual.

Rita:

That's about not rocking the boat.

Rita:

And we learned that at home.

Rita:

So what does it mean to, and I think in particular white folks at this point.

Rita:

It's like we are taught how to not rock the boat at a really early age.

Rita:

And it's fascinating to me to watch change makers.

Rita:

Sometimes the most radical change makers who say they're ready to rock

Rita:

the boat, but then not willing to look themselves in the mirror and looking at

Rita:

their own, at our own concepts of love.

Rita:

And who are we trying to grasp for and what are we scared to lose?

Rita:

And what are we willing to give up for it?

Jeanne:

Wow.

Jeanne:

You have left us with an amazing amount of things to ponder, to think

Jeanne:

about and ways that hopefully we can all make the world a better place.

Jeanne:

Rita, this has been such a pleasure.

Jeanne:

Thank you so much for joining me today.

Jeanne:

Thanks for joining us today on Blueprints for Brilliant's Coaching Insights.

Jeanne:

We hope you're leaving this episode with inspiration to take your coaching

Jeanne:

business and your life to the next level.

Jeanne:

If you found value in this episode, we would love it if you would subscribe

Jeanne:

and share it with someone else who you think might benefit from hearing it.

Jeanne:

Thanks, and we'll see you in the next episode.

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00:17:45
33. Effective Communication for Couples with Coach Rod Jeter
00:27:52
32. Mid-Career Coaching for Professionals: Career Transformation with Jackie Brown
00:19:41
31. Transformative Healing Coaching for Families Affected by Addiction with Donna Marston
00:24:37
30. Organizational Success with Coach Gill Brabner: Transformational Leadership for Thriving Teams
00:20:46
29. Overcoming Public Speaking Anxiety Through Tapping With Coach Julie Jacky
00:32:53
28. Feng Shui for Business: Empower Your Workspace with Intuitive Coach Kim Julen
00:37:14
27. From Stuck to Success: Overcoming Immunity to Change with Chris Thyberg
00:26:36
26. Unlocking Your Potential by Energy Coaching with Cornelia Kawann
00:23:31
25. Embrace You: Body Positivity Coaching with Liza Lomax
00:20:06
24. Business Transformation: Unlocking Profit Growth with Business Coach Asha Mankowska
00:20:10
23. Proactive Resilience by Building Strength and Support with Coach Jenn Fredericks
00:22:34
22. Emotional healing for success with NLP Mindset Coach Victoria Stakelum
00:32:32
21. Coaching Strategies for Women with Master Coach Melanie Childers
00:18:22
20. Coaching for Overwhelmed Business Owners: From Burnout to Thriving with Jane Bromley
00:21:48
19. Color Code Personality: Personal Growth and Self-Awareness with Coach Kelly Knowles
00:27:19
18. From Athlete to Coach: Strength Coaching for Injury Recovery with Krista Ford
00:24:04
17. Learn Stress Management Techniques with Coach Elizabeth Kipp
00:26:37
16. Leadership Coaching for Impactful Change with Annette Gray
00:26:26
15. The Mindset Transformation Blueprint with Coach Roxie Smith
00:18:21
14. Mindset and Performance Coaching with Haydn Griffiths
00:15:08
13. Transform your Life Through Holistic Health Coaching with Denise Kennedy
00:21:55
12. Mindfulness Coaching with Mary Ellen Ciganovich
00:19:11
Trailer for Blueprints for Brilliance: Coaching Insights
00:02:03
11. Transform Your Mindset and Business with Holistic Coach Jewels Lamm
00:32:09
10. The Power of Somatic Coaching with Sara Vatore
00:25:56
9. Sales Coaching for Entrepreneurs with Ana Red
00:18:21
8. Strategies for Coaching Business Growth with Adam Holbrook
00:24:56
7. Wellness Tips, Transformation and Success Stories with Jill Kreiger
00:15:28
6. 8 to Great Life Transformation with Life Coach MK Mueller
00:25:02
5. Sales Coaching Techniques with Francois Lupien
00:26:29
4. Mindset for Success with Transformation and Empowerment Coach Nicole Majik
00:21:10
3. Navigating Wellness with Health and Wellness Coach Lida Johnson
00:29:21
2. Secrets to Aging Well with Aging Coach Elizabeth Phinney
00:24:22
1. Lawyer Productivity, Well-being and Business Success with Pamela DeNeuve
00:26:52