Shownotes
Join us for a heartfelt discussion on navigating the grieving process of infertility with our friends Kate and JJ Tomlin, who bring both wisdom and warmth to this sensitive topic. As we reminisce about the joys of friendship and parenting, we dive deep into the emotional challenges that come with losing a child, sharing personal experiences and insights that resonate with many. The Tomlins emphasize the importance of allowing space for grief while also holding onto hope, reminding us that God’s goodness remains steadfast even in the hardest moments. With humor and authenticity, we also explore the intricacies of marriage, communication, and the value of vulnerability in relationships. This final episode of Season One is not just about grief; it's about finding light in dark times and supporting one another through life's toughest challenges.
We are currently between seasons and aren't taking any more call-ins at this time.
In This Episode:
- The grieving process of infertility is often overlooked, yet it is crucial to address.
- Finding a balance between grief and hope is essential, especially after miscarriages.
- Establishing boundaries with in-laws can protect mental health and strengthen marriages.
- It's vital to take individual responsibility in marriage and not blame your spouse.
- Learning to communicate needs and emotions is key to a healthy relationship.
- The journey of parenthood can be challenging but also deeply rewarding, full of growth.
Show Notes:
Wrapping up the first season of Marriage on the Line, this episode features a deep dive into the often-taboo subject of infertility with guests Kate and JJ Tomlin. The hosts bring warmth and humor to the table, recounting their personal experiences with the Tomlins, which sets a relatable backdrop for the more serious discussions ahead. The episode explores the grieving process associated with infertility, where Kate and JJ share their heart-wrenching journey through two miscarriages. Their openness offers a rare glimpse into the emotional complexities of this struggle, emphasizing that even those who have experienced parenthood can face profound grief when dealing with loss.
Throughout the episode, the Tomlins share invaluable insights on the importance of communication in relationships, particularly during challenging times. They discuss how each partner may cope differently with grief, underlining the necessity of creating a supportive environment where both parties can express their feelings. Furthermore, they touch on the themes of patience and gratitude, encouraging listeners to find hope amidst their pain. The episode serves as a powerful testament to love’s resilience, showcasing how couples can grow closer through shared trials and the importance of cherishing every moment, even the painful ones. As they conclude, listeners are left with a sense of hope and community, encouraged to reach out and connect with others who share similar experiences.
Links referenced in this episode:
Transcripts
Well, hello there.
:Hey, friends. Welcome back to Marriage on the Line. We've got some very special guests on the line today.
Our good friends JJ and Kate Tomlin, who lead the heart of dating movement. And, man, they are just so fun. They've got so much wisdom.
is also the final episode of: :That's right.
And, you guys, we go into a topic that I don't think is talked about enough, and that is overcoming and getting through the grieving process of infertility. And a lot of fun things, too.
We have a fun conversation with them as well, but it's a very important conversation, and so we are so excited for you all to listen in today. So let's get on the line. Welcome to the podcast. We are so glad to have you all here. JJ and Kate are actual friends of ours in real life.
We got to hang with each other in. In Atlanta, right, guys? I'm trying to think, like, in Atlanta. We both happen to be in Atlanta at the same time.
:This is how patient they are. Like, I picked the restaurant. There were two restaurants of the same name, and so I specifically sent them the address.
There are two, so make sure you go to this one. And I sent them the address, and then I showed up to the other one.
After all of that, I sent them across town, and they were so gracious, they ended up coming to the wrong one. They eventually drove across town just to meet up.
JJ Tomlin:I will say, you know, it was worth it in many regards. The first one was fine, but the second one was better. Let's.
:Okay, good.
JJ Tomlin:Like, me and J.J. pulled up to the first one. We're like.
Kate Tomlin:It was a little ghetto. Yeah.
JJ Tomlin:We were like, okay. I mean, this is fine. I mean, this is their spot cooled up to the other one. We were like, oh, okay. We get it.
Kate Tomlin:This is a little bit more suburbia. Yeah.
:Like, this has a vibe. It's nice. Nice ambiance and everything. And that was so fun. We. You know, we. We just had the best time, and so. And we love. We love what they do.
Right, sweetie?
:We love it. Yeah, We. We love what you guys do. We're huge fans.
We encourage people all the time to listen to your content, and we're encouraging all of our listeners today. Look up JJ and Kate. You won't want to listen to us. Anymore. Once you find them, which is totally fine. We want you to go. Go listen to them.
We even tell our college age son who's. Who's wanting dating advice. Hey, listen. Listen to Kate and jj. We're dreaming about new live events and. Well, I'll just.
We would love whatever that shape that takes. We would love for the Tomlins to be part of that.
:Yeah, definitely.
:As we plan out and dream about the future. They're just fun to hang out with. And they have so much wisdom.
:They do.
:And I don't want to spend our whole time talking. I want them to talk. That's right, because I could talk about them the whole time.
So before we dive into anything else, give us an update on the cutest human being on the planet. Her name is Eleanor, and she. She is the most precious. She's so adorable. So we're biased. How is she? How's life? How's life as parents?
JJ Tomlin:We love it. I mean, she's nine months old today and. Or as of right now. She's so fun. Like, you know, every stage, everyone always says this.
Like, every stage is great, but, like, you always miss part of a past stage, and then you also love something new about the current stage. And she's so fun. She's active. She's crawling everywhere. She's gonna be walking, I think, in the next month, which is wild.
She's talking so much, like babbling and saying things. It's so cute. But we love it. I think it's just been so fun to be parents. And honestly, we've been taking her everywhere. She's been on 11 flights.
She's been over to Europe.
:I love that.
JJ Tomlin:Literally, this little travel baby. So everyone is like, your life stops when you have kids. And we're like, oh, no, no.
Kate Tomlin:It's kind of like the little Chihuahua you put in your designer purse, you know, for Kate, like just a little accessory for life.
:Just come right along.
:Yeah, we have that little Chihuahua, so we get it.
Kate Tomlin:Yeah. What his name? TT or what's his name? Yeah, yeah.
:But we. We took a baby to Australia.
:We did, like, with our firstborn when.
:He was 10 months old, which I don't recommend.
:But he did great, though.
:He actually did great. But our. Our pd. Our pediatrician told us when he was little. And it's the same advice you guys are living by. It's like your life doesn't stop.
Like, this child is joining your life.
:They adapt to your life and so.
:Bring them into your. Your life. And we've. We've done that, you know, with all of our kids, we've. They've all traveled, they've gone many places that we've gone.
And, you know, like, when I have friends that, like, oh, we just can't travel as a family, and we're not good at it. And it's like, a lot of times it's because they didn't start trying until the kids were, you know, already much older.
But if you put them in that baby seat in the car early on, they just get used to it and they roll with it. And thankfully, our kids who we've had to travel, we live away from family and all that, they've adapted.
:They have. And I want to say, too, that it's. There is, you know, there comes a point in different ages and different stages of life that they.
You do have to kind of get through the tough before you get to, like, the magical moments when it comes to travel, but it's so worth it. And I love that you guys embrace that, too. And so Eleanor's precious. She is a professional traveler.
JJ Tomlin:Do you have anything to say about her, Babe?
Kate Tomlin:I mean, it's life changing. I used to be like, especially with singles, we work with singles a lot. Hey, be content. This is where God has you. Like, just embrace it.
And after having a kid, it's like, man, I want every single single person on Earth to go through the miracle of having a child, at least one kid. Because I really think it's one of the most just sacred experiences and gifts that God gives us on Earth.
It's true, you know, So I want that for every single person to go through at least one time.
:I love it.
:It is amazing. I'm telling you.
:What would you say?
Like, I know we got people listening, and I know you have people in your life and you guys can have been through some of this, but so many people write us with the heartache of wanting that. But. And maybe they're married and they want that. They're not just single and want that.
They're married and want that, but they're struggling through infertility, which is such an intimate struggle, and it sometimes feels like an invisible struggle for those who write us where they're going through it, they don't know how to talk about it. They're trying to celebrate the births of their friends, babies and all that, but all the while, they're kind of grieving.
What is your advice and insight to those who are walking through that period?
JJ Tomlin:Yeah, so we recently, in the last few months, have had two miscarriages.
So you know, and some people are like, maybe in the back of their mind, they're like, well, you already have a baby, so you don't really get what it's like to have a miscarriage or have infertility struggles. And I'm like, I just. No, I don't. Actually. It's just as shocking, I think.
I think that it's hard in different ways, but it's still very hard because you think that you really don't expect it. Like, you don't expect it because your body has already done it. So for it to happen and then happen again, you're like, what's going on?
And, you know, there's a lot of questioning yourself, questioning your body, questioning even God at times. And so I think, you know, what I. For us, you know, we're still just very much in the middle of it, trying to figure out the. The path forward.
But I know that what the Lord has been teaching me is patience and gratitude also for what I have right in this moment. Right.
:Yeah.
JJ Tomlin:Finding that balance of grief, but also holding on to hope, which is similar. It's so funny because it's the same advice I give to singles. Okay.
So it's like, you can grieve that you're still single and 40 years old and still finding hope that God can still do incredible things. So, you know, don't, like, pretend that the feelings aren't there. Don't just pretend that it's not happening and that it's hard.
But also don't get so stuck in that that it leads you to despair. It leads you to hopelessness. And, you know, that's easier said than done in ways, especially when you're going through something like infertility.
And if it's repetitive infertility, because I have friends that have been struggling with it for years, and. But I do know that something beautiful happens when you surrender it. And when you can say, yes, this is still painful and, God, you are still good.
You're still good through it all. God's goodness never fails. God's goodness never fades. It's not. His goodness is less now that this happened or it didn't happen.
His goodness still is strong.
And so I say that from a place of, like, I've had to actively fight for that every day, even amidst feelings of, you know, heartbreak, feelings of depression, feelings at time of, you know, hopelessness, especially after the second one. And so, yeah, that. Holding both and the tension for both. What about you, honey?
:Yeah, that's so wise.
Kate Tomlin:Yeah. I mean, it's hard to add on top of that, you know, there's a great worship song that I've just been having. I've just had it on repeat lately.
It's at the altar, and it's just this invite to, like, take all that pain, take all of those burdens, the broken dreams of whether losing a child or not even having one yet. And it's just, man, like, I invite you to lay it down at the altar with me, because there's just no waste at the altar.
And that offering is, like, the most sacred offering. And I really don't like it when people are just saying, give your pain and suffering to God. He can handle it. He can handle your anger.
I'm like, no, no. God died so that you could offer that to him. He wants it with all of his heart. He wants that on the altar and sees it.
And so my invite would be, if you're in that hopelessness, that sadness, that grief, whether you have a kid or not, man, the altar is the best place that I've just, like, laid myself upon. All of those emotions, all of that sadness. And God has just never been more near and more kind with Kate and I in our life.
And spiritually, I just have never felt more broken and yet more seen and intimate with God in my life.
:Yeah, you know, grief is such a. An interesting thing that is so unique. I mean, there's certain, you know, stages of grief, as you guys will know, that people go through, but it. The.
The rate that they move through those stages and how those stages affect each individual can be so different. And in marriage, that can really cause a lot of issues, especially with miscarriage.
You know, couples we know who walk through this, they talk about that, like, how. How they process it is very different. Like, one is like, okay, ready? We're ready to try again. And they're just like, let's just try again. And.
And then another is like, hold on a minute. I got to give, you know, this child a moment, and I need to grieve this child. And, you know, it's just like, we can be on different pages with it.
How have you all been navigating that? And what. What would you say is something that you have each done for each other that has made a difference as you all grieve these losses?
JJ Tomlin:Yeah, I would say that. I feel like, for us, I feel like we've been kind of on the same page. Have we? Or am I off with that?
Kate Tomlin:Yeah, I think we have.
JJ Tomlin:We've been kind of on the same page. I feel like. Like, you know, JJ's old tendency would have been maybe to just, like, you know, go to everything's fine potentially right.
In an old version of yourself. But he's allowed himself space to mourn the.
After the first miscarriage, we had friends come over, and they were like, hey, we want to encourage you guys to leave at least a week of just true mourning, because that's biblical. You know, Jesus knew that he was going to raise Lazarus from the dead, but he still mourned. And so the mourning part of the process is so important.
And I think as our friends, like, literally, it was like, second or third day as we were going through it, they said that to us, and we both were like, that just hit us, and we were like, okay, let's leave space to truly, deeply mourn together. Whereas we might just want to go into, like. Especially after the first one. Okay, statistics are high. This happens to a lot of people.
It's going to be fine. We've had a baby before. We're going to do it again. Like, that can be, like, the tendency, you know, but.
But to really leave that space to mourn and to mourn together and mourn however we individually both need to. But, you know, I'll just be honest.
Something that we did that really was helpful, that JJ led was we did, like, a little burial for our first baby, and that was really helpful for both of us. And, you know, we've had other people be like, that's a little extreme. And. But for us, we just. That was really helpful for us.
:No, I think it's beautiful. I mean, to honor the sacredness of that life and. And to grieve and to have that moment and that place of closure.
JJ Tomlin:Yeah.
:And I think that's. I think that's. That's beautiful.
JJ Tomlin:And we named both the babies.
You know, I think the second time was definitely harder because there was a moment, you know, where we maybe differed as it was happening was JJ was so, like, adamant in prayer and had people rallying. He was actually out of town when it was happening. And so he brought some people.
He was at a conference, so he brought some people, and people were, like, praying and rallying over.
I was just, like, kind of by myself at home and being like, no, like, it's not that I didn't want to cling to hope or pray, which I did, but I was a little. I'm a little more of a realist, I guess, for better or worse sometimes. And I was like, I really don't know. Like, I will pray, but I'm Not.
I don't know. Like, it's harder for me to believe in the miracle when I. It's like, the exact same symptoms as the first time. And so it's where we differed.
But I really. He did really help me to at least cling to that hope.
And even though we did, it did hurt, like, a lot when it, you know, came through that the baby didn't make it.
But I think at the same time, it really showed us that, like, God is still good and we should still continue and rally in prayer, no matter what the outcome. Like, really heavily rally in prayer. And so, you know, and.
But after the second one, it was harder to, like, want to name the baby, and there was just more time to, like. Of, like, I think, frustration and, like, this is happening again. What does this mean?
And, you know, a lot more hesitation on my end to want to try again, which is. We're on the same page about that, though.
:Yeah.
JJ Tomlin:What would you say?
Kate Tomlin:Go ahead, Dave.
:No, no, that's good. I'm just. Yeah, like, this. You guys are kind of. You're teaching a master class on.
On communication, marriage, on faith, on leaning on each other, giving space for one another, and I think it's beautiful. Like, I'm just. I'm sitting here learning, soaking it in.
:Yeah.
:And so that's. That's so good. So looking ahead where you are right now, like, what. What are your goals?
And you don't have to, of course, share anything that's kind of personal with just the two of you. But. But what do you. What do you hope this next season of marriage looks like? You know, I mean, even.
Even beyond the children part, but, like, in your ministry, in your marriage, in your family, for Eleanor, like, what are some of the goals you're dreaming about in this next season?
Kate Tomlin:It's such a good question.
You know, it's just sometimes with goals, it's hard, at least with me personally, because I'm like, God probably has such a better plan than anything I could goal myself and play myself into.
:That's true.
Kate Tomlin:You know, but I do think, especially as a man, like, I've.
I've always actually had a harder time with vision and goal setting because whether it's laziness, you know, whether it's just like, hey, living by the seat of my pants is more fun, or whether it's, you know, sometimes it's kind of vulnerable to have a faith and a goal and a vision and follow it because it might not work out, you know, similar to that.
That second miscarriage, like it was a vulnerable faith to believe that God was going to show up and it didn't work out the way we had hoped and prayed for. Well, God still showed up, just not in the way that we had hoped and prayed for. And we're still kind of figuring that out.
I'd say for goals, man, I've really thought about this. I just think like, externally when it comes to having kids, we work together, we have two individual businesses.
Kaya is hard of dating, I have my own business.
I'm like, the way I define success at this point in my life is honestly just having a healthy, intimate marriage and everything overflowing from that. Like work is work, you know, like hard of dating is hard of dating. It's great to have goals. It's great to think about 20, 25.
But for me, there's nothing more successful than Kate and I having a healthy, intimate marriage. And especially, you know, my top goal is just emotionally being like the healthiest husband, dad and man I can be.
Not so that I can feel good about myself at the end of the day. It's because, man, I want that vivid, alive marriage with God, with Jesus, with my wife, with my daughter. Like, that's why I want it.
And so I'd say for me, my goal is just the most emotionally healthy family rooted in Christ as possible. Like that marriage of spiritual and emotional maturity.
And that's been a huge journey for me this past year and one that I just, it's just been so life giving for me.
:Such a wise goal. And how do you, how do you like. And I know we measure those kind of goals. Those are the ones that count the most.
But what are the things you look for to know that that's happening for your own emotional health and in your marriage?
Like, okay, when, when this is happening, this is a sign that we're on the right path or on the flip side, like if these things are happening or not happening, that's how I know that maybe I'm missing the mark a little bit in terms of my personal health or my marriage. Because I think we all, and we all should want that as our primary goal. But sometimes it's hard to know, am I, am I hitting the bullseye on that?
Kate Tomlin:Totally.
:So what are, what are those things that you're intentionally trying to do? Because I think that would really help the listeners.
Kate Tomlin:Yeah, well, you know, I'd say first, like, how do you know if you're growing? Number one, if I'm working out and I'm building muscle and I'm Losing fat.
Unless I have a scale, if I'm only looking in the mirror, it's really hard to see over three months, six months of the day by day growth. But if I take a picture of myself today and then I take a picture of myself in six months from now, I can really see that change. And it's stark.
But on that day by day, week by week basis, it's so gradual you almost don't even notice. Right. So it is hard to gauge growth in a short kind of term way. I think the easiest way though is suffering and conflict, like how you're showing up.
And suffering and conflict is probably your best snapshots for how you're doing, you know, emotionally and with maturity. And you know, these little fights that turn into World War three, like, are they, is that still happening?
Or like fight by fight, conflict by conflict, is it kind of starting to change a little bit? Is it kind of short to take a different form?
Are you guys maybe working through things that you would have blown up and spent hours, you know, fighting over? So that's for me, probably the best, you know, gauge. It's like in suffering, pain and conflict.
Does it look differently than it did a month ago, three months ago, or are we still kind of getting held up on. On the same issue? The same issue. The same issue.
:That's great.
JJ Tomlin:I'll say. You know, we're, we're one for advocates for growth in many regards.
Like this last year, JJ's worked with a coach who is like an emotionally healthy, spirituality kind of coach for men. Well, they coach women too, but specifically for him, and that's been super incredible for him.
He's also done a spiritual formation or soul formation course and in person here in Franklin. And so he did those two things on his own and continues to do that.
I've been in a year long mentorship program for basically my own faith and spirituality. And then together we have been really working through our pain and peace cycles, if you guys are familiar with that.
And that's been really helpful for just our marriage to have a different language to come together and work through what's my pain cycle, what's his pain cycle, and how do we individually own our own pain and try to actually show up differently, show up in peace and working through that together actively. So I mean, we have a lot of different resources.
We're not, we, we love to tap in a lot of different help as much as possible, especially in our case, you know, because not only do we do marriage together and parenting together now, but we also work together, so there's just that many. And you guys understand there's just that many more opportunities to potentially fight when you also work together.
:Yeah, yeah, true.
JJ Tomlin:It's like a totally different dynamic. But I just think we see.
And we have actually a couple friends right now who are like, man, they're just going through it, and it can get so easy to get lost. And especially the parenting, right? It's like, that becomes a priority, and it's like, okay, the kids are the priority and that.
And especially the more kids you have, the more that takes over. But then it's like, the more you don't invest in getting help for your marriage specifically, the more it's just, like, one day disastrous.
We see some friends now where it's like, man, they're just really having to pick up pieces of, like, almost wanting to get a divorce, but because they didn't start the process of getting help earlier.
And I'll just say, this last piece of thing that we see a lot is that, you know, if you're a person that is always like, it's my spouse that has the issues. It's my spouse that has the issues. I would just say it's never just the spouse that has the issue.
:Yes, totally.
JJ Tomlin:Always you, too. And that's really hard because you're like, oh, no. But they have such a harder traumatic past. Like, you should see their past.
You should see their family. Like, you don't understand. And I'm like, I don't care how healthy your family was. You have issues, too. And so it's always both. Even if some. I.
My therapist said this in the past when I was dating a guy. But even if I start, I. It was 60 of my fault for a lot of the fights. It's still 40% the other person's fault, right? So there's still.
There's always two in the equation. And I think sometimes people are hesitant to get help because they're really thinking, oh, this is my. My spouse's problem, not my issue.
They need the help, not us together.
:Yeah, that's so true. Because we all. We each play a role, and we have to take our personal responsibility.
Like, when we come from that posture of taking, like, looking at, like, God, you know, asking God, search my heart, God, not, like, fix my spouse, God. I feel like we're so quick to be like, just fix him, God. You know, like. Or fix her, you know, and it's like, no, no, no.
Like, you know, God's working on them. But really, we need to Ask God, like, what can I do? Like, what. What am I missing? What are the blind spots in me that I need to be working on?
Because that's huge. And I love that you guys read out of the gate because how many years have you guys been married now?
JJ Tomlin:A little, like, two and a half years.
:Two and a half years. But, you know, I love it because you guys are right out of the gate getting help, recognizing we need to have a growth mindset, not a fixed mindset.
Like, we never arrive in marriage. There's always room to learn. And I think just starting out a marriage that way is, like, it's gold. I think everyone could benefit from doing that.
I want to know, like, what has been. I mean, you guys are, like, relationship experts, but what has been the biggest surprise when it comes to marriage for you all?
JJ Tomlin:Oh, man. The biggest surprise. Oh, okay. I need to take, like, 30 seconds.
:I know. It's a big.
:That's a great curveball question. Like, what is.
JJ Tomlin:I love it, though.
Kate Tomlin:I. I can go first, man. I think, honestly, like, I say this in humility. It was so surprising how perfect I was.
:Yeah, I love it.
Kate Tomlin:No, probably the opposite, right?
Like, it was so surprising to realize just how emotionally unhealthy I was, how spiritually unhealthy I was, how independent independent I was of God. You know what I mean?
That first year marriage was especially hard for me because I just had no skills for communicating needs, no skills for communicating emotions. My vulnerability, you know, my ability to be truly vulnerable was so infantile.
So that just led to so many challenges of internally me resenting Kate. You know, when you. When you withhold pain and it goes unvalidated in relationship, it just turns into resentment for your spouse. And I. I just.
There was just so many times in that first year of marriage, I would just. I didn't recognize the guy in the mirror. And it was. It was so humbling in so many ways. So I. I would say, by far and away, I.
Like, there's a lot of things I could talk about, but number one, by far and away, I just had such a arrogant, prideful view of myself, of. Of how healthy I was. When man. The layers underneath are just man.
:Marriage will reveal. It'll reveal, like, a lot of our blind spots, for sure, and then we grow through them together.
:I love. What about you, Kate?
JJ Tomlin:Yeah, I would say, oh, gosh, this is totally vulnerable. But I. You know, we talk about inner child and different parts of the inner parts or the early parts of our life that come out in Certain situations.
And for me, me, I was shocked at how much my inner child was coming out with JJ in a. In a negative way, not in a good, healthy, like, sweet way. But. And for.
To just clarify, my inner child and how I was as a kid was very angry and demonstrative and I threw temper tantrums. And I was like, you know, at that point in my life, I was like, oh, yeah, I. That part of me is like, I've totally healed.
You know, I've worked through it. I literally had gone through. Go through lots of therapy for that.
And then in marriage, especially in our first six months, we were living in a 600 square foot apartment with two dogs. Our desks were next to each other. We worked together. It was like there was no space. There was literally no.
:Yeah, that's.
Kate Tomlin:It was awesome environment.
JJ Tomlin:And I just remember even still one argument we had where it was just like I did not recognize the person that I was and I was in the first six months of marriage.
So I think, you know, as much as you also think that maybe you've done your work, you've healed from things like sometimes, you know, intimate, deep intimacy can reveal even more.
:Yes.
JJ Tomlin:And that's why I do think it's just so important to never stop continuing to heal. Because there are things that maybe I said or did in front of JJ that I had never done.
I had not done for years and years and never done in friendships.
Like, you know, maybe the only people that had ever minorly experienced it to that point were was some of my family members who, you know, trigger me back to my old self. So for it. For some of those parts of myself to come out in front of jj, I was like, what is going on here? This is not okay.
And, you know, there's still moments where I have to still work through things. So I think it's just that continued posture of like, I'm never going to stop learning and growing.
And it's not because I think this is another huge revelation I've had in marriage that surprised me is not just looking to JJ to fix my issues, okay? Not looking to be like, hey, well, you're causing me to be this angry. You're causing me to be this. Like, why Just you need to stop doing that.
And then I won't be so angry. Then I won't be so this. But instead actually looking at myself and being like, no. God gives us the power to have a sound mind, to have self control.
My biggest vice is needing to have more self control or not having It. So I need more of it as a fruit of the spirit.
And so looking to myself to be like, okay, irregardless, no matter if JJ is being psycho, okay, maybe he's being crazy, but I need to still control myself regardless of how he is acting or how much he is frustrating me or how much he is or not doing things that he said he was going to do. Whatever it is, like, I still need to learn how to control myself, himself, irregardless of how he's acting.
And I think that's not always something you hear, and that's not necessarily something that I always focused on before. It was more like, hey, you're doing this, and I need you to do this different so that I won't be xyz.
:Right. It totally does.
And I feel like it's so good for people maybe who are early in their marriage or maybe not even married yet to hear that, because we still have to take responsibility for how we respond. Because so many times I think too, people go into relationships and marriage thinking, well, they have so many qualities.
You know, I could maybe help them change and get this better thing.
And then, you know, like you said, you get married and there's that, and then there's like, well, if you would stop doing this, then I could stop doing this. But really, it's just learning how to be healthy yourself and to respond in a healthy way.
Like, no matter how they are acting towards us, we still have a responsibility to show up in a healthy way. And that's kind of what I hear you saying. And learning that is a whole other thing. It takes time and it takes practice.
But it is possible because I think we live in this world that the whole, like, sorry, not sorry mentality is like, well, no, you gotta just put it out there and then just, sorry, not sorry, you know, and it just. That doesn't go anywhere in marriage at all. I mean, it really. It's a very prideful way of approaching communication. And so.
And pride, you know, pride comes before a fall. And so if we just are constantly coming at each other, expecting the other to change and not taking responsibility, then it's problem.
Kate Tomlin:Well, let me ask you guys a question, because we're in this therapy. It's been really amazing. It's very different. It's called restoration therapy. It's peace and pain cycles.
And I've never been in a therapy in an emotional framework where even as you go through that hour is like a gauntlet, because the second you start to steer off from taking responsibility and talking about expensive.
JJ Tomlin:Yeah.
Kate Tomlin:Yeah. The second you start to veer off and say, this is where it came from. This is what my spouse is doing.
This is the origin of why I'm acting, they stop you, and they basically say, I don't care. We're talking about you, and we're talking about what you're feeling, and we're talking about how you want to show up.
And it's been really amazing because. And I'm curious because I was talking with someone else, and they were like, you just don't understand my husband.
I have to have him actively listening and showing up like this, or else I can't express myself. It's not a safe space for me. I can't.
And I was just like, that's so interesting, because I feel like you're kind of holding your spouse or other people hostage to your feelings, and unless they're showing up perfectly, then you can't show up. And so what's the.
What's the balance of maybe hoping that your spouse shows up a certain way, but at the end of the day, you're taking, like, full individual responsibility of how you're showing up?
:Yeah.
:Yeah.
:Great question.
:It is a great question. You know, I read a book. It wasn't a marriage book, but I think it had a lot of marriage principles.
It was by a Navy seal, and it was called Extreme Ownership.
Kate Tomlin:Great book.
:Yeah, great book. Yeah. And the principles in that that, you know, the seals kind of live by, then applied.
They applied it to, like, business and life and all that is just that taking extreme ownership. Like, you cannot control the other person. You can't blame the other person. You can't blame the situation or the circumstances.
It's like, what can I do to take ownership over my part in this?
And if we'll approach all aspects of marriage like that, and, yeah, communicate what you want from your spouse, what you desire from your spouse, what's going to help you be at your best, but then also take extreme ownership over your own part, your own.
Your own feelings, your own mistakes, all of that, and go first and by your actions, display for your spouse what you would like to see them do for you.
Kate Tomlin:Dang, that's good. Yeah.
:And so that's all we have the power to do in marriages, is lead by example and serve one another and serve. Even if we don't feel like our needs are being reciprocated completely, because that's love. You know, the world is love.
It says love is very transactional. Just give what you get. But Jesus models a Love that is very selfless.
And he goes, and that's what, what marriage takes, like, two people that are doing that for each other, that kind of selfless.
:Right.
:Selfless love.
:And I love how you said model, like, model being that safe place.
So when, you know, whenever your spouse comes to you with something, really listening, not trying to fix it, it's the whole like, are you trying to be helped? Are you trying to be heard? Usually when they first bring something to your attention, they, they just want you to hear them.
They want to know you're in their corner. There might be another conversation where there does need to be something addressed, you know, obviously.
But I think that the whole, like, just being that safe space. But I, I, I do know what you're talking about, jj, where it's, it's hard because it's like, well, gosh, I don't feel safe to express this.
But it's, the thing about it is nobody's going to do this perfectly. And so it takes, it always takes someone going first. It takes someone going first being vulnerable.
It takes someone going first being willing to listen. It takes someone going first to repair the relationship.
And I think that when we're just constantly waiting around for us to, for our spouse to kind of show up to us in the way, in the perfect way we want them to, then we're just gonna be going in circles a lot of the time. And it's like we're waiting for the stars to align.
And it's just, I think it's really just doing the best you can with what you know at the time and continually trying to grow and be that safe place, and then learning from when you mess up. I mean, some of the greatest lessons that we've learned are in our biggest failures.
I mean, and then we're like, you know, instead of being like, wow, we just really, completely messed that up. We learned from it. I mean, and we had a lot, like, in our early years, so much.
:And that becomes, not only helpful for us, but it's become the teaching content that other people relate to.
:This is very true.
:Share mistakes. And I'm sure you guys can relate to that because you share, you do so much right?
But all of us, when we are willing to be vulnerable and share the hard stuff, people really, really, really lean in. Guys, we could talk to you literally all day, all day, all night. You're the best. And we've got to get together and do this in person very soon.
But before we sign off today, tell all of our listeners where they can find you. And I just want to tell them guys anything. The time, let's do be there. The live events, the podcast, the resources. It's great. So.
So where can they find you?
JJ Tomlin:Yeah, you can find us on. Well, the best place with everything is just heartofdating.com our website and our podcast is on Spotify. We're on YouTube now, which is fun.
You can watch us. But Instagram is Kateness, JJ Tomlin and Heart of dating too. And we do some fun things over there.
Especially JJ is trying to get into more funny content, which is totally up his alley.
:I love it. That's great.
:I'm waiting for the stand up special.
JJ Tomlin:That's right.
Kate Tomlin:Don't get your hopes up.
:I hope you've enjoyed our very first season, which is now wrapping up. We've had callers from all over the country. We've done some interviews.
We had some little bonus episodes that were just Ashley and me talking about various things. And we've enjoyed all these conversations and we hope that you have as well.
:We do. And we just want to thank you guys so much for being willing to ask questions.
And, you know, it's been really fun to just talk to all kinds of different people, all different walks of life, life and like Dave said, even all different years of marriage. But also we just value that you're willing to be vulnerable. I know many of you, most of you, I think, picked aliases, so that was kind of fun.
But just, just really trusting us with your questions, we just do not take that lightly and we just want to thank you for that. But we also want to thank two very important people that made this podcast possible.
Because you guys, anyone who actually knows us in real life probably finds it really funny that we do anything with technology because Dave, neither one of us, like Dave and I, neither one are good at.
:I can barely technical turn my phone on.
:So we want to thank our two producers, Jonathan and Eric, and just thank them for all their hard work because you guys, they are amazing guys. They have busy lives and families and they are the best people to work with. We just love them.
Not only the work they do as producers, but they're great friends of ours as well. And so we, we want to thank them, the people who make it happen.
:Right? Yeah. And that's Jonathan Armbruster and Eric Randall.
:That's right.
:And together they have a company called ContentBuilders co. And if you have any podcast dreams of your own, reach out to them. They'll make you look and sound really good.
But for Next steps, we want to invite all of you to come to one of our live events. We've got other things happening as well.
h live events in late January: ng speaking requests for fall:So if you go to daveandashley.com click on events, you can see what we have on the calendar already and come to one of those. If you're interested in having us come and speak, go to daveandashley.com click on speaking and the information's there.
If you would like to set up a one on one or a two on one, like as a couple counseling coaching session with Ashley, who is a trained biblical counselor and does an amazing job, you can go to ashleywillis.net and click on coaching. And she does a life changing work where you can interact with her one on one through the beauty of technology, through video chat.
And I'm telling you, she is so gifted at it. And if you've never, never met with a biblical counselor, a coach, I'm telling you, this isn't a wonderful experience. And Ashley's the best there is.
Now she does have a waiting list, so it might take her a little bit to get to you, but it is worth the wait. So reach out to her. And sweetie, what else would you like to say on this final episode of season one?
:Oh, man. Well, let's talk about, like what stuck out to us about this, this season.
:Yeah.
:What are some takeaways and a lot.
:Of, lot of takeaways. You know that each caller, they were so courageous in sharing their struggles, what they were going through.
You know, the one caller who had come out of a place of making poor choices and said each day she wakes up and feels like, I just need to do the next right thing. Do the next right thing. That really resonated with me. I think all of us, that's where we need to start. Sometimes life can feel overwhelming.
Marriage and family can feel overwhelming. It's like, God, what do you want me to do with my life?
Just do the next right thing, you know, and if we keep doing that, we're going to be on the right track.
:You know, it reminds me of the verse. Your word is a lamp into my feet and a light into my path.
And it's just a reminder that we don't get to see every, like the, the next 10 steps, but we can see the next right step, like in the right direction towards the Lord. And I love that verse because that's really what essentially what it's saying.
And when we focus on God and we just take that next right step based on his Word and what he's calling us to, then we're going to be going in the right direction. That really stuck out to me too with that interview. And I also. I love the question.
Cassie, who talked about in law dynamics and what do you do when your in laws are, you know, basically refusing to have a healthy relationship with you? And that can be such a heartbreaking dynamic.
But I feel like her question and the conversation that we had with her really sheds some light on that and gives people hope on what to do. And I think what it really boils down to is boundaries, appropriate boundaries.
But also, you know, we really made the point and she made the point of stating that there's very rare circumstances where you say you're dead to me and you never can talk to me again. You know, I know that in her situation they're going through a temporary time of that. But we believe it's God's heart.
And she also agrees with us that it's God's heart to have that olive branch ready and out there when the time is right, when you can come together in a healthy way. But there are times where you do have to put space in between each other because you're just for your own mental and spiritual health.
I think sometimes people wait too long being sucked into an unhealthy person's orbit and they don't put boundaries in place and they're just thrown around and just. It's like tearing them and their marriage apart. I think they wait too long and then they wonder like why everything's out of sync.
And so I just really, I thought it was so good that Cassie, being a relatively younger person and earlier in her marriage, is learning that now because I think there's so many people that it takes like 20 years for them to understand that.
So I feel like that I hope people took that, you know, really leaned into that conversation and, and maybe made adjustments in the boundaries they have with, with their parents and in laws.
:Yeah, we learned a lot I mean, we. We. We don't just take the posture of, like, being the ones with all the answers. Like, we're on this journey with all of you learning with you.
And each one of these calls taught us something. Yeah, each one of the interviews taught us something.
:Yes. I always love talking to the Rouses and talking to JJ and Kate Tomlin. I mean, they're actual, in real life, friends of ours.
We don't get to see them in person very often, but when we do, we always just love spending time together.
You know, you guys may or may not know this, but the marriage space, like the Christian marriage ministry space, is actually a really small, small space. There's. There's not a lot, you know, of us out there doing this. And so when we get to lock arms with others who are doing it, it's just so fun.
We learn so much from them. I mean, we've been married longer than both of those couples, but I feel like they have so much wisdom and we can learn so much from them.
And I love that.
Like, I love learning from people who are even earlier in their marriage because sometimes I feel like they have a fresh perspective where we can learn, you know, things that we just. New perspectives that we never thought of before.
:So true. And we're going to keep learning, and I hope you guys will keep learning right along with us.
So as we step away from this podcast to end season one, new endeavors are ahead, and you can keep up with those new endeavors primarily through our website and through Instagram. So our website is daveandashley.com where we'll keep updates there and then also on Instagram.
We are aveandashley posting fresh content and fun videos and all kinds of fun stuff over there as well. So reach out to us anytime. Send us a dm. We would love to hear from you.
Thank you so much for tuning in, taking this time to invest in your marriage and being part of this journey with us at marriage on the line. God bless.
