In this encore episode from 2022, Gloria Everett, President and CEO of The Mutual, shares her forward-thinking approach to making hybrid work effective and sustainable. She challenges traditional workplace models by focusing on what truly works for employees and organizations rather than forcing a return to outdated norms. Gloria emphasizes the importance of listening, experimenting, and co-creating solutions with employees to build a model that balances flexibility, collaboration, and business success. She highlights how trust, open communication, and a commitment to continuous learning help create a culture where teams thrive in both remote and in-office settings.

Highlights

• Co-Creation Over Mandates – Discover why collaborating with employees leads to more effective and adaptable hybrid work policies.
• Redefining Productivity – Explore how shifting the focus from hours worked to meaningful contributions creates a more engaged workforce.
• Making Office Time Valuable – Learn how structured in-office collaboration strengthens culture and teamwork without unnecessary time on-site.
• Trust as a Leadership Foundation – Understand why empowering employees with flexibility and autonomy leads to higher performance and satisfaction.
• Continuous Learning and Adaptation – See how staying open to new insights and industry trends helps leaders refine hybrid work strategies for long-term success.

Resources Mentioned

The Inspire Your Team to Greatness assessment (the Courage Assessment)

How can you inspire our team to be more proactive, take ownership and get more done?

You demonstrate and empower The Courage of a Leader. In my nearly 3 decades of work with leaders, I’ve discovered the 11 things that leaders do – even very well-intentioned leaders do – that kill productivity.

In less than 10 minutes, find out where you’re empowering and inadvertently kills productivity, and get a custom report that will tell you step by step what you need to have your team get more done.

https://courageofaleader.com/inspireyourteam/

About the Guest:

Gloria H. Everett President & Chief Executive Officer

Gloria has more than 35 years of experience in insurance risk management, sales, marketing and management, including over 20 years of experience in medical professional liability insurance with The Mutual. Before joining The Mutual, Gloria held key leadership roles at TIG/Fairfax, Fireman's Fund, NORCAL Mutual Insurance Company and Kaiser Permanente. Gloria has served on multiple Boards including Pacific University, National Risk Retention Association (NRRA), the UC Berkeley, Equity & Inclusion Advisory Board and Medical Professional Liability Association (MPLA) formerly the Physician Insurers’ Association of America (PIAA), where she served as Chair of the Board from 2014 – 2016. Gloria was the recipient of the 2019 MPL Association Award of Excellence in Honor of Peter Sweetland.

Gloria holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from Saint Mary’s College in Health Services Administration.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/gloria-everett-b247924/

https://www.tmrrg.com/About/management.aspx

About the Host:

Amy L. Riley is an internationally renowned speaker, author and consultant. She has over 2 decades of experience developing leaders at all levels. Her clients include Cisco Systems, Deloitte and Barclays.

As a trusted leadership coach and consultant, Amy has worked with hundreds of leaders one-on-one, and thousands more as part of a group, to fully step into their leadership, create amazing teams and achieve extraordinary results. 

Amy’s most popular keynote speeches are:

• The Courage of a Leader: The Power of a Leadership Legacy
• The Courage of a Leader: Create a Competitive Advantage with Sustainable, Results-Producing Cross-System Collaboration
• The Courage of a Leader: Accelerate Trust with Your Team, Customers and Community
• The Courage of a Leader: How to Build a Happy and Successful Hybrid Team

Her new book is a #1 international best-seller and is entitled, The Courage of a Leader: How to Inspire, Engage and Get Extraordinary Results.

www.courageofaleader.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyshoopriley/

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Mentioned in this episode:

The Inspire Your Team to Greatness assessment (The Courage Assessment)

https://courageofaleader.com/inspireyourteam/

This episode, cutting edge strategies from a courageous virtual veteran was first released at the end of summer in 2022 at that time, many industries were just starting to have employees back in the office. Some CEOs and senior leaders at that time wanted to mandate that employees be in the office, 345, days a week. They wanted more days in the office than at home. GLORIA wasn't thinking in mandates back then, and when we recently connected on this topic of hybrid work, she's certainly not thinking in mandates today. Gloria understands that we keep learning from our experiences, that our needs change and that it's a constant process of evolving and CO creating. Listening again to this episode years later, I'm significantly impressed, yet not all that terribly surprised that absolutely everything Gloria had to share rings true and works today. I'm glad you're here to listen into this conversation. It had me take a refreshed view, and I know it'll help you take a refreshed view on what you can do to make the most of remote work and make the most of in person work, and to leverage hybrid in optimum ways for team members and for work to be done to the highest quality. I'm glad you're here.

My guest today has made herself a thought leader in the area of hybrid work. She has been a step ahead of most in the marketplace asking herself the questions for the next phase of work, always with an eye on caring for employees and clients. I'm so glad that you are here to hear from and to learn from Gloria Everett, the President and CEO at the Mutual RRG.

Welcome to the Courage of a Leader podcast. This is where you hear real life stories of top leaders achieving extraordinary results, and you get practical advice and techniques you can immediately apply for your own success. This is where you will get inspired and take bold, courageous action. I'm so glad you can join us. I'm your host. Amy Riley, now are you ready to step into the full power of your leadership and achieve the results you care about most? Let's ignite the Courage of a Leader,

Gloria I know early in our journey with COVID 19, you accepted that flexible, virtual work was going to be here to stay, and you started planning and operating as if that was the case. How were you able to make that decision? How did you come to that? Because, honestly, so many people were like, where we get back to normal really quick? Yeah,

well, I think that fortunately, unfortunately, I was involved in the wildfires of 2017 and we lost our home. So I think one of the things that was really an eye opening event for me is that this fire and what the the way that we had to quickly respond in the event of a multiple wildfires, in the event of an earthquake. So we had a really tight disaster planning schedule. So it was really important to me, when you only have 20 minutes to leave your house and all of your belongings, you realize how critical it is to have a good plan. So we put that plan in place after the 17 wildfires, and then, because I ensure emergency medicine physicians, I was hearing about the pending pandemic and its impact on the healthcare delivery system, and how much we didn't know about the disease and the disease process, so it was really important that I keep my my field of vision very wide. Okay, and so we were able to close down the company go virtual within hours. And that, to me, was amazing that I made the decision, I pulled in the executive team, we executed, we were out of there, and boom, we were up and running the very next day. And then as the days. Went on, it was evident to me that we didn't know what we didn't know. We didn't know how the disease was going to respond. We didn't know how employees were going to respond. And my number one concern, when we immediately transitioned to this, just in the back of my head, are our employees safe at home? Yeah, and we needed to figure out how to assess if employees felt safe at home. Did they have an environment? So that was one of our initial concerns. And then after that, it was, did they have the equipment for more than two weeks? Because I think everybody kind of went out with two weeks. It did, yes, yeah. So Calvin, we thought this was two weeks, at one point, just two weeks that, you know, that's going to be it, and we'll all be back tomorrow after two weeks. We still didn't know much. We still, you know, we we didn't even know how we were going to be gathering the clinical data on this, and I could, I could hear from the physicians in the field. I could see what things were being done. I pulled a lot from the tech world, because we're at Cisco Bay Area, yeah. So I looking for information from the day we went out. My number one concern was, how are we going to go back? You know, how are we going to go back? And then as we I studied this, and I kept asking questions, it became evident that noone had answers, no. Mm, hmm, so I just had to keep an open mind. Are the are the employees say? Do they have the equipment they need as the months and weeks, as the weeks and months went on? In this case, I kept asking myself, How are you going to explain to them why you're going to bring them back? Yes, the why became the issue enough to in the San Francisco Bay Area start looking for consultants. And I think that, to me, was probably the biggest positive that I did, is I found consultants, and they spent more time with me because I'm a baby boomer, and I was trained as you were evaluated by the time that your bottom was in the chair, yes, and you you were processing work. And I had that in my head still, of course. And they said that is, you didn't have to get rid of that. But it was hard because how so then it was like, how do we set up criteria to make sure that our clients are being serviced? Yeah, uh, how do we set up metrics to evaluate people? Uh huh, all of these little tidbits. So my full time, other than running the company, making sure we were doing what we needed to do, was trying to answer this question, yes. And more I dove into it, the less I knew Yes,

yeah. Well, and and you just shared a lot of value Gloria, even in the journey that you took, right? So first you had this plan to get folks out of the workplace right. Then the focus goes to all right. Now my workforce is scattered about in their homes. Are they safe there? Do they have the equipment and the resources that they need? Right? And I, like you, were looking to other industries, the tech industry, looking to experts in the field. What do I need to know? How can I get the answers? And you are months, years ahead of other leaders, looking at this, keeping the open mind throughout right and then thinking about, okay, if we're going to ask employees to come back into the office for any amount of time. Why? Right? They've proven that they can do their work from home. Why do you need me to come in? And I know from our previous conversations, Gloria, that you've made some investments in making sure that folks are safe and comfortable in their home offices, right? So you've set us up to do well here. Why do we need to come back in there, and are the clients being served, right? And how do we evaluate performance? So a lot of different places that you were looking along the journey,

you know that that's just kind of how it all evolved. And I think that the more that you start asking these questions, and I think for me, you know, talking to my peer group, getting talking to the consultants, talking to other industries, it was really an aha moment when I'm hearing from them. Um, well, you know, we need to cut vacation pay because everybody's working from home. We need to, you know, we need to, in essence, start taking away because the privilege of working from home. You don't have commute costs, you don't have this, you don't have that, you know, all those, the consultant that I used said something so profound me said, well, now we're in this situation, and yes, all that conversation is going on for some people, and those are questions you need to ask. You realize have now just made your company the center of their personal lives. You have dropped your company, uh huh, the domestic space, yes, of all of your employees like it either way. So you need to couch that. Well, I don't have to commute anymore. Well, I can kind of be very flexible with my hours, but they never get a break.

Yes, yes. And so how are

we going to maneuver this? And to me, that was so valuable, because I had never thought about that. So the issue, yeah, they don't have to commute, and yes, they can pick up their children from daycare, they can go take medications to their elderly parents, or they can do whatever they need to do, and don't want to

load a laundry, yeah, absolutely, but now they don't get a break either. Yeah, yeah, and now the work is in the home. Mm, hmm. So

that, to me, was a huge aha. I think for me also, one of the things I did worry about, and I did see starting to deteriorate, was the issue of culture, yeah, and the issue of teamwork, and the issue of, how do you onboard new employees? How do you transfer that in a virtual world?

Yes, okay, Gloria, I want to talk about those real obstacles or the real considerations, right? What's going on with the culture? What's going on with the teamwork? How do we onboard new folks? First, I want to let our listeners know more about who you are. So speaking today with Gloria H Everett, she is the president and CEO at the Mutual RRG. Gloria has more than 35 years of experience in insurance, risk management, sales, marketing and management, including over 20 years of experience in medical professional liability insurance with the mutual Gloria has served on multiple boards, including Pacific University, National Risk retention Association, the UC Berkeley Equity and Inclusion advisory board and medical professional liability Association, where she served as chair of the board from 2014 to 2016 and Gloria was the recipient of the 2019 MPL, that's medical professional liability Association Award of Excellence in honor of Peter Sweetland, I know a big honor in your industry. So lots of management and leadership experience. Gloria, I'm glad you're here today to talk about, how do we make this virtual hybrid approach work? So you brought up some important obstacles, considerations, if you will, right? How does the culture continue to foster How do we ensure that teamwork and how do we onboard new employees in an effective, connected way? What have you learned?

What have I learned? It's dynamic and ongoing, and noone has it right. No one has it right. I think the most exciting part of it is I'm challenged again. I mentioned my demographic, baby boomers. You know, I was trained management by walking around. I was trained by, you know, how many hours, if somebody stayed out, additional hours, even if they were just moving paper clips on their desk, they were revered as being, you know, a really hard worker putting in those commitments. Yeah, exactly. And you have to put all of that aside and go, but that doesn't apply in this environment. So how are we going to make this happen? And taking a Component and Component, and I think my personal leadership philosophy is people are your most important asset, yeah, and it's the people that can make magic. We can all build widgets. We can all write insurance policies. But it's the path. Action behind what you're doing that makes the magic Yes, and so how do we transfer that we happen to be in medical professional liability insurance a very important part to our health care delivery system? Yes, it's also what I believe, empowering our physicians and providers to go to work every day and not concentrate us all are all my financial assets and reputation on the line. They need to feel comfortable that we have their back. They need to feel comfortable that when they have a claim, that we are going to guard their not only financial well being, but Their emotional well being. If anybody has been in litigation, you will know it is the worst thing in the world that's adversarial, mean, nasty words are said. So knowing that we could be there to embrace the physicians when they're going through this very horrific event, yeah, it's from our culture. And how do you, how do you communicate that and build that with everyone, across all the disciplines of the company? Yes. So my idea was to pull everybody together once it was safe, okay, or as safe as we knew it would be, because there's always variation in the virus. And have these conversations, nice, I mean, just be really upfront. Yeah, I was surprised. We We were out two years to the almost to the day that when we had this? Well, maybe, you know, we're out for a significant amount of time. The amount of anxiety that was around our is she going to make me go back to work? Is she going to make me do this? You know, is she and I'm like, No, we're going to do this together. Yeah, we don't know. We don't really know what this looks like, but I have no indication right now that no one's doing their job right. We would have it would have been self evident, but what I do see is this, and we have ways of monitoring, is that people do create flexibility in their schedule. Because some people were like, do I have to sit at my desk and stare at it? If I don't have anything to sit at my desk and stare at right now? And I say no, but if you have to run an errand, or you have to just show respect for the other people that may say, Listen, I'm going to be on my cell phone. I need to run an errand and make sure your work is done. So maybe when your significant other takes the kids out on an outing or or somebody has your kids for a couple hours on it on a weekend, you finish. What do you ever have for the week? Yeah, but that's you're a professional. You have to make those calls, yeah? So I think that, to me, is really important, is that yeah, really understand their professionals and get your job done. But we need to come together.

I just Yeah. I want to underscore this glory, because I think this is so critical you're you're talking about the the give and the take and the co creation and the trusting one another. There is no one size fits all solution here. There's a lot of unclear answers. I think something that is clear is that we need to co create with you, if you're a leader with your team members, if you're a CEO with all the employees of your organization, right? We need to, we need to hear from everybody about what works for them, individually and in their teams, and CO create here.

I That's the perfect word, and that is exactly what we're trying to do is we're trying to co create nobody. I certainly don't have all the answers, but together, we will find them, and what we find might work until we get more information. And it's, it's almost like a ladder, you know, you keep going up this ladder and figuring it out. So I think that is the really exciting part of this, you know. I mean, it being, you know, from, you know, coming in when women weren't even in the boardroom to, you know, women weren't even on, I mean, you were a teacher, a nurse or a secretary, those were your three options. And being the, I think, the generation that kind of broke. That was initial ceilings to where we are today. It's like mind blowing, yeah, because you, you, you did what your boss told you to do, even if you thought it was and the phrase was, I don't, you know, I mean, this was a phrase that was used, I don't pay you to think. Okay to do you know where today co creation is really what you have to do to maintain a strong, healthy workforce. Yeah,

yeah, agreed, agreed. So, how do we keep teams collaborating if they're not together in the office day to day.

That was that's ultimately, where we ended up going. And I said we are going to go back one day a week, okay? A full day. It's going to be non commute hours is going to be from 10 to two.

Oh, okay, so, so that's different. I heard that from many folks. I go in the office, but it's not nine to five, it's 10

to two, and an hour of that is we all have lunch, and the Lunch is provided. Wow. Okay. And some people like to do an activity, like an educational thing, on a certain topic that may be of interest to all of us, yeah, and, you know, we've they've done Jeopardy, they've done all kinds of different kind of educational formats, and it's really fun. And there have been prizes at times. And people really creative. One, a group of people for every meeting is responsible for selecting the cuisine and selecting if they want an activity or not, or kind of a theme, you know,

nice. And that responsibility is rotating. It's through the whole company. Okay?

So that's really exciting. And what I have people are saying, well, you know, we're coming in, and maybe we should mandate, you know, nine to five. I said, No, let's let this grow organically. Nice, nice. And some people send departments go, Well, if we're in from like 10 to two on Wednesday, which happens to be the day right now, maybe we should come in on Thursday to do our little team department things. Okay? And that worked for a while, and then they realized, well, maybe that doesn't work. Maybe we should just add on hours to the 10 to two. So again, flexibility, flexibility and them figuring out what works for them. I

love it Gloria. Because if you had said, You know what, this is going to end up, that we need two or three days a week in the office, and you had mandated that from the beginning, people, people were likely to resist you, let them learn from these experiences, because honest to goodness, we have forgotten, we have forgotten what it feels like to be in the office all day, right? And we forgot what benefits or how that affected us, and it might be affecting us differently, because we've all experienced what we've experienced over the past couple of years. So you come in and and try it,

yeah, just open the door to the closet and hope the boogeyman, you know, is and the boogeyman wasn't there. We also had, I mean, interesting. We also had some feedback with, okay, the one day a week. Well, I can't get any work done because I'm going in the office

interesting. So their normal rote

processing work got interrupted. And I said, Exactly, yeah, because that is what we want. Because this is the designated time to talk to your teammates. It's the time to work on collaborative projects. It's the time to ask face to face questions. It's the time just to come together and it will disrupt. It's meant to it's meant so I think they got it now. They're like, well, we're just coming in and having lunch and kind of talking to each other. I said exactly.

It's great Gloria. Yes, it's meant to disrupt. Yeah, I love that, because

we would, if we were coming in nine to five every day, it would be interspersed throughout the day on six days a week. Well, no, now it's very focused. And I think because we focused on it, people are going, Wait a minute, wait a minute. I think the other thing that was really interesting, again, another little observation is that certain disciplines have to have more time together, yes, and this is across the board, in the MPL world or in the insurance world, it seems like times of year there's a seasonality to some departments. You know, there could be finance the times the financials need to be prepared that people, it's just easier to come in together and everybody look at spreadsheets. Uh huh. They. Because there's contract, there's contract renews, or there's policy issuance times, or there's there's just certain things that lend itself to spending more time in the office. So there's no restriction in coming into the office, and certainly anybody not feel safe at home. I would want them to come into the office, I would want them to have that separation. Now, you know, I'm maybe making a mountain out of a molehill, because you know that those are kind of difficult things to talk about, but sometimes mom maybe just needs to get away from the kids and get some work done. You know, yes, there are times that I'd like to just get away too, and I don't have any kids at home. But, you know, after a while you just need kind of change of scenery.

Yeah, so maybe it's summertime, some parents are spending more time, yeah, exactly, exactly, personal seasons and professional seasons. Oh, I love that. And we had this ebb and flow before, and maybe it just feels more I don't distinct or contrasted now, right? There might be times where we need more collaboration with our team, so that team is collectively deciding, let's spend some more hours in the office while we're launching this or having this season, or signing the contracts, yeah,

yeah. And then the other thing that was another kind of side, uh huh, on this was there were people that decided they wanted to get together purely for social so they would take their breaks. Those that lived in the same community would meet up and go for long walks and a walking group,

and they were not at the office, like not in their

neighborhood, in their in their area, close by, and they would, and I think this was particularly helpful when being in closed areas was was more of a concern With the virus. Yeah. So they started this ride, and that seems to be going strong, because I hear that all the time. I'll be talking to someone to go, well, our walking people are meeting tomorrow. I'll run this by them. So I think there's a lot of different ways to make this happen. I just don't think in terms of the great resignation in terms of the workforce that we're coming up with that we have to be flexible, and we have to it as leaders. We need to challenge ourselves to figure out, Okay, how are we going to make our make our metrics? How are we going to know things you're getting done that's on us. Nothing. Well

said, well said, yeah, great perspective. Yeah, I love that you're speaking to what it's calling from you personally, to stay open minded and flexible as the leader, and to continue to do so, cuz, as you've said, and I think that you are exactly right, this is dynamic. This is evolving. What's working right now might not at all be what's going to work six months from now,

yeah, but more will be revealed.

Yes. So anything you can offer glory about your personal journey with that, like, what do you? What do you do? How do you? How do you stay open, minded, flexible, continually looking.

You know, I have great group of industry peers. I, I read a lot about this subject. I I'm curious, and I also talk to my children who are the demographic, okay? Well, I and I encourage my leaders to talk to their children. And one of the questions is, if you recall, if your daughter or son, who's now been working at home for two years, was made to go back in the office, what do you think they would do? Oh, they wouldn't do it. So why do you think the people that work for us are going to do it? Because it's going to make us happy with nine I leave at five. You know, it's so nice.

Oh, I love that. Gloria. What would my kids do? You know, I don't have kids, you know, what? What would your nieces and nephews do? Right? Well, somebody, you know, in that, in that, in that generate in that demographic. Speaking to your industry peers, reading, yeah, I just see your you're constantly scanning Gloria Absolutely.

And again, I had great consultants that I've used and a lot of personal growth in this area. Again, you know, I was, I was the one that had to be convinced, because it wasn't for me. But I think that, getting back to, you know, your people are your biggest asset, and they're the ones that are going to make the magic happen. They're the ones that are going to make, you know, the mission and vision come to life. They're the ones that are in face to face with your client. They're the ones that have to believe, and the only way you can do that is coming together. I mean, if we read memos in our career and we went, who are they writing about? This isn't our organization? Not

real? Yes. Okay, so, yeah, you keep your eye on that idea that the people there who make the magic happen, so that commitment to having it work for people and not involve them if it's going to work for people, and that there's going to be moments, leaders, all leaders, that this is going to feel uncomfortable,

yes, very uncomfortable at times, almost like, I don't really, I don't feel very secure right now. Could somebody help me? It's a different world. It is different, and we're not going to go back. We can't, we can't. There's just so the box has been opened. Yep, yeah. And I have all kinds of questions about what going to happen to the workforce, and I feel for those people, like my insurance, they can't deliver medicine, but in person, right? So the our grocery clerks, our nurses, our doctors, our teachers, as much as the teachers, at some point, have to be in front of the student, and there's just a whole bunch of questions around, how's this going to look in the future. Mm, hmm,

yeah, there, there are, yeah. There are a lot of questions in front of us, but I'm hearing you're saying, Get your people together and ask those questions Absolutely, or the possible answers

absolutely, yeah, and the other thing I think we did, which was really interesting, getting back to the initial days, and how to you know when, when we couldn't go in the office, or when we did we were under such heavy restrictions to be able to contain the virus, was people didn't I mean, I had heard that people were working off of their kitchen tables, yeah? And we did not know that, yeah, this was not a good thing. I had heard that people were, you know, kind of in this corner of the room. And, you know, children are home because there's no school and everything. So we as a leadership group made the commitment that we would have each and every employee have a ergonomic evaluation. I love this virtual ergonomic specialist. And the thing that I thought was really unique to the oh, you know, the specialist is going to put down all these equipment they need. It was so de minimis, the amount of money we spent to get everything ergonomically up to date. So it was nothing. I mean, well, it was, but it was nothing compared to the value that the employee brought to the table. Lovely,

yes, yes, be comfortable and set up as best as possible at home.

Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, did they have the set up correctly? Did they have a space that made sense? You know, it was, it was a very trying time not to say that it's over, over, but I think know more about the virus. We know about our more about our capabilities, and we know what we don't. We know that we have questions about the future.

Yes, yes, yeah. I'm glad you brought that up, because you shared that with you earlier, and I think that was such a a wise decision, and it follows your journey, right? Like first we were safely getting everybody out of the office, and now you're making sure that things are safe in this dispersed setup.

Oh, yeah, yeah, I think that that's kind of where we are

glory. You also earlier brought up the challenge of onboarding new employees associates during this kind of setup. Any anything to offer there. What lessons learned?

Number one is you do need to come together and spend time in a physical space that has a corporate feel to it. You know you can't. What are the people that we've. Board since then, they did come in the office, they met with their supervisor, they met with leaders, and could see the structure of what used to be, you know, and that was really important. The other thing is, don't underestimate people's ability to learn and you know, and don't underestimate that. Yeah, maybe some silly mistakes will be made, but you know what? We're all learning, we're all learning. So I think that just again, being flexible, really understanding what the person you're onboarding needs, you know, and evaluating it again, having a great leadership team that's tuned into this, but you do need to come together this. I do not believe that you can 100% on board, have somebody up to speed virtually now, somebody may argue with me, but that's not been my experience.

Okay? So there is, there is a come together. But also, don't underestimate their ability to learn right without having somebody looking over their shoulder the entire time, yeah, yeah. It,

yeah. So it's, it's, you know, if you hire the right people, and then they'll be fine.

Gloria, you have shared such great stuff with us today. I really believe you are ahead of the curve in looking at how do we make virtual and hybrid work for us, for the work for our customers, and you do such important work for the physicians that you serve. And huge theme I'm hearing from you is people, the people make the magic the service that you provide, happen. So how do you have it work for people, involve them in the conversations. Have that give and take, hear from them firsthand about what does work?

I love your word, co create.

Yeah. Terrific. Gloria, thank you so much for being with me today and sharing candidly of your of your experience and the mutuals experience.

Thank you Amy,

Thank you for listening to the courage of a leader podcast. If you'd like to further explore this episode's topic, please reach out to me through the courage of a leader website at www.courageofaleader.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please take the time to leave a review on iTunes that helps us expand our reach and get more people fully stepping into their leadership potential, until next time, be bold and be brave, because you've got the Courage of a Leader.