What if the most lasting leadership isn't about the monuments you build but about the quiet spaces you create for others to thrive? Many senior leaders wrestle with this tension: how do we create impact that endures beyond our tenure without becoming the very "founder effect" that stifles the organisation's future? We know intellectually that leadership is about developing others, yet our systems still reward personal visibility over collective growth, heroic intervention over sustainable culture.

This conversation with Professor David Murdoch offers a different lens. We explore what happens when leadership becomes less about being essential and more about making yourself unnecessary. Through his experience moving from technical expert to Vice Chancellor, from academic to industry leader, and through his two years running a remote hospital in Nepal, David reveals how unconventional detours often become our most formative experiences. His practice of building guitars (30 of them, all given away to friends around the world) isn't a hobby separate from his leadership, it's the creative renewal that sustains it. What's possible when we stop treating our "opposite world" as optional?

Professor David Murdoch is an infectious disease expert, former Vice Chancellor of Otago University, and currently works with PHF Science leading organisational transformation. His father's quiet championing of women in education shaped David's approach to what I'm calling "covert mentoring," lifting others into opportunities without fanfare or expectation of recognition. In this conversation, you'll discover:

1. How creative practice serves as a barometer for your work-life integration (when your mind wanders to the workshop during boring meetings, you're in a good spot)
2. Why taking opportunities that "wreck your career" often become the best decisions you'll make
3. How to build high trust, high accountability cultures through deliberate delegation and learning to let go
4. Why working with young people isn't just about developing them, it's about their fresh questions keeping your thinking alive
5. How succession planning is the ultimate success metric (things continuing well when you're not there)
6. Why you can't assume you have a legacy, and how that humility actually creates enduring impact
7. How experiences in radically different environments (like running a remote hospital in Nepal for two years) shape your leadership in ways conventional career paths never could
8. Why the "founder effect" happens and what warning signs to watch for in your own leadership

Timestamps:

(00:00) - Introduction

(03:02) - The Creative Outlet: Guitar Building and Leadership

(09:13) - The Journey from Expert to Leader

(23:59) - Trusting Young Talent in Leadership Roles

(32:54) - Creating Lasting Impact in Leadership

(38:20) - Building a Culture of Trust

(42:02) - Lessons from Nepal: A Unique Leadership Experience

Other References

1. Nick Petrie
2. Sir Edmund Hillary Foundation
3. Himalayan Trust
4. Ashley Bloomfield Podcast Episode
5. Values Party

You can find David at:

Website: https://www.phfscience.nz/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-murdoch-61a436318/

Check out my services and offerings https://www.digbyscott.com/

Subscribe to my newsletter https://www.digbyscott.com/subscribe

Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/digbyscott/

What I say to people is really take those opportunities, really do this, take something that's different. If you are good at what you do, you'll find your place. And you can worry about what might happen, but actually if you're working hard to be good at what you do, you'll get a good job. Things will generally work out. And if you worry about what's going to happen because you might be too out, you know, you're going to miss these wonderful opportunities.

What if the most lasting leadership isn't about building your own legacy but about instead quietly lifting others into theirs? And what if the experiences that take you furthest off the beaten track?

are the ones that shape your leadership most profoundly. Today I'm joined by Professor David Murdoch. He's an infectious disease expert, a former vice chancellor of Otago University, and someone who's made over 30 handcrafted guitars that he's given away to friends around the world.

We get into the power of what I'm calling covert mentoring and why taking the unconventional path to Nepal in his 20s opened doors that he never imagined. Also, we get into how his father's quiet work, advancing women in education, shaped his own approach to leadership. If you're thinking about the impact you want to leave beyond your own tenure, this conversation will shift how you see your role.

Hey I'm Digby Scott and this is Dig Deeper, a podcast where I have conversations with depth that will change the way you lead.

David, welcome to the show.

Thanks, thank you, great to be here.

Good to be here on a Friday afternoon. We're kicking back. And I wanted to start with something that we both have in common, which is building guitars. And when I first learned that you're into building guitars, there was this immediate, you're that sort of person. What is it about guitar building for you? What's the draw? What's the attraction?

I'm a strong believer in having a creative outlet. And I guess I've always been interested in woodwork. I grew up with a father who was a teacher, but he had always had a fantastic workshop. So I was brought up, you know, always making stuff in the workshop, often with him, often not with him. And in fact, I think probably my interest in guitar making came, you know, back as a kid, I thought about it then. And it took forever before I actually decided to do it. But it's definitely...

the creative side, having something that will just take you away from anything. And for me, it does. It takes me away from anything. I just focus on this and even if I'm spending five minutes in a day or longer, it's still precious and it just takes, know, so it's my happy place.

And how come guitars rather than, I don't know, metalwork or something else with wood? Like what's it about guitars do you reckon?

I love music. I think it was always, and I played around on the guitar, never been particularly good, but it was always something I enjoyed. And so I think it was probably natural in that way. So mean, it's stringed instruments, many guitars, occasionally ukulele, I've made a bass guitar. So it's a stringed musical instruments. And I guess it's from that interest. I've probably got one violin in me, reckon. And I've assistant who plays the violin and another who plays the viola.

Of course, they always think that's the, you know, the pinnacle of making instruments is a violin. So actually I have some violin wood and one day I'll do it, but it's probably only, you know, I think guitars is really where I mainly focus.

And you know that craft. What is it about a violin that sounds like that's the pinnacle? What's the challenge?

Well, actually I've heard an actual interview with somebody who made both as a professional and he claimed guitars were inherently more difficult, particularly with the tension on the strings that they're more likely to basically, you need to make them a lot more sturdier and to counter the tension on the string, which is a lot lighter and a lot less and in a different direction on the violin. So it's actually structurally, it's you have to be a bit more careful, but I think it's very similar. mean, I think there's similar skills.

interesting.

He says you're happy place. And I took completely get that it's kind of like Nick Petrie, who researches burnout. He says people who sustain themselves and don't burn out have what they call an opposite world. And I reckon it's that world that you go to that's completely different to your normal day to day work world. So, and that sounds like for both of us, it's an opposite world. How do you reckon having that in your life carries over or supports or enables?

you and your leadership work, your leadership role.

It's a bit of a barometer for me in terms of, guess, you know, maybe the work-life balance story, but it's a barometer for me because I know I'm better all around when I'm spending time in the workshop. And often the way it manifests is, you know, those boring meetings when your mind wanders. If my mind's wandering to the next, you know, what I'm dealing with in the workshop, that's a good spot. That's, to me,

That's a great indicator that I'm actually, I'm spending enough time there and that it will automatically wander to that. And, know, vice versa. So it's a very obvious barometer for me because I know I'm better. Just in terms of feeling better and I've probably working better when I've got that time to, when I'm spending enough time just away from that with a mind completely on something else. That's probably the main thing. I just am a very strong believer in

creative outlet. My wife as well, she's exceptionally creative in the art world and all sorts of art world and sewing and you know we just have a house that's full of our artwork as well you know so it's again it's just the life we live in many ways.

I reckon we should be doing this in your workshop. conversation. know you've invited me to come over at some point and do that. I'd love to do that. And maybe there's a part two here. I love how you say you're better. You can be more in service of others when you're getting a creative need met for yourself. And I've interviewed a number of people that they'll have a really early start and they're in executive role and their days are full. So they get their cup full.

early in the day, you know, often 5am, 6am doing something that serves them in some way. It might be guitar building, it might be going to the gym, whatever. So when they get into work mode, there's this I can be in service of everyone else because I'm now in a good place for me. And it's a similar sort of thinking you've got there, I reckon.

And it's been an amazing connector. Obviously it's connected us, one, it's surprising how many people around make guitars. I'm constantly surprised. Actually at my university campus a few years ago, there were three of us. coincidentally, I mean, quite remarkable. But it's also a connector I've made probably pushing 30 instruments and I don't sell them. I give them away. So in fact, they're all around the world with very good friends.

It just happened to, know, usually they didn't know about it until they landed with this unexpected gift. And it's sort of interesting thinking of that connection around the world. think, you know, it would be an amazing moment, wouldn't it, if all those people came together on stage with their instruments, which is almost impossible. I think that would happen, but that's exactly, wouldn't that be amazing?

the David Murdoch Jam,

That is super cool. I love how you do that. It's such a generous act. It's not a commercial thing. It's a here's something I've created. I want to give this joy to someone else. And yeah, I noticed that in how you show up at work, too. There's a big generosity in the way you listen, the way you ask questions, the way you give others the benefit of the doubt. There's a humility in you that I really admire. Where do you reckon that comes from?

the old Presbyterian work ethic. Both of my parents, teachers, they're both teachers. They both first in family to have a tertiary education. They both the oldest in their family and had to give up a lot just to be able to get there. And so I think they grew up, the three sisters and I, a very strong work ethic of, know, expect to do your best, but that's good. Doing your best is the right thing to do.

and serving others and seeing it in what they do. So no doubt I chip off the old block there when it comes from that background, absolutely.

Your dad seems to have a big influence in you, not just the workshop piece, but the way he went about quietly developing others and being a champion. get the sense of champion of perhaps the underdog or maybe the overlooked. Tell us a little bit about him and how he worked and led and perhaps how that's influenced you.

He was brought up in rural Canterbury and a family that really just had to go, you know, really didn't have a, it was actually a pretty poor family actually in many ways. Working in the various farms and moving around and with a father who was a respiratory cripple for a lot of his life actually, and emphysema. I mean, there's a whole story about him. He migrated from the UK after the First World War where he was in the trenches as a young.

you know, a 17, 18 year old returned and his mother died in the influenza pandemic, only child and big gap until he migrated to New Zealand, a lot of mystery around that. you know, there was, I my grandmother in the rural Canterbury, brought up his father as the oldest and having to work throughout his school years just to help the family. And probably, you know, clearly somebody who is very capable.

always probably underrated their own abilities. So actually got into Teachers College, then realised that the contemporaries who were at university as well, of course Teachers College wasn't part of a university at that time, and realising actually I'm as capable as these people and ended up doing on the side a bachelor's degree one unit a year for whatever nine years or something. Incredible while he was training as a teacher and then teaching.

and then did a master's degree part-time later on. But he progressed very quickly to be a principal in his, I think still in his twenties and then rapidly to teachers colleges as lecturer. And well, he started, I think it was the first graduate entry primary teacher training program in the country and also had a real focus on leadership in education. And I've constantly, constantly meeting people at U-Hub, you know,

find out Roger Murdoch's son and people in the teaching, just was known so well in the area. But a lot of them were women. got into leadership roles and they were all set, you He was the one, he was the champion. And that's what I remember, you know, in terms of his emphasis on, you know, diversity and his focus on, and he was unusual in many ways. I he's still alive, he's rounded, but he...

voted for the values party. Remember the values party? Yeah, right. was like, I guess the close to me, a predecessor of the Greens back when that wasn't. And, but very liberal in his views for a time at a very conservative country. But he was really was a champion. And women in particular, I can remember. I mean, because I'm meeting all these people who, who subsequently like that. And interestingly, and my dad, you know, and someone who toward the end of his career was probably on a

I don't as an Australian.

trajectory but at the time when there was when he was starting to see affirmation policies about getting women into roles he was probably a role that he might have gone into it was actually a woman who went into that you know at the time might have been a bit of a quite interesting to go through that experience later in his career too but no no no a man who very very humble

What was it about his orientation towards promoting developing women? Where did that come from?

I mean, and I expect it wasn't just women. I mean, it was really just promoting people of just the ones that I remember, but I don't know. I think it was just, that was where he got his most joy. It was really helping others. So I think that was really evident. And he was always, both my parents, they were always over-involved in the local community and doing things, but often in leadership, know, they'd often find themselves suddenly in the wrong and there they're organizing something, even in their retirement.

probis clubs, yeah, they're the ones that are organizing the trips and things like that. So naturally slot into those roles, but in a very quiet way, no ego about it, just helping out.

There's something about that no ego, which I want to dig into. I'm super curious about how his way shows up in you. If there was a, you know, a continuity of leadership DNA that comes through to the son, you know, we, we stand on the shoulders of giants, people that come before us, that inspire us and we can learn from. I reckon your dad's one of those people and either knowingly or not.

I believe that they influence how we show up. And I've got plenty of role models and mentors and folks that I reckon I've either consciously or unconsciously absorbed their way of being, their way of operating. You know, my dad's very entrepreneurial. And so I have that gene in me. My mom's very spiritual. And so I bring that kind of humanistic side. So I kind of combine those two things in the way that I work, the work that I do.

I want to explore what's the influence your dad's had on you about how you show up as a leader.

Definitely the values. We're pretty clear values of working hard and respecting others and except for that we're really, really very clear and I've certainly, you know, inherited that. think that was just a part of growing up. I think, you know, don't be, know, doing things without having in a showy way, just doing the right thing and helping others. I mean, these things were just, I guess I don't think it was conscious. I just think it was where we're brought up and it just ended up.

It's just who you are. You've had an extraordinary career. You know, you started in, I guess, as a scientist. You still are a scientist. A bit more the technical expert side of things. And you've gone on this incredible career in all sorts of countries and advised all sorts of places and people. know, and Vice Chancellor of Otago University now with PHF Science. There's, you've had a trajectory that's

That's who I am.

I think fascinating and it looks like, you know, from the outside, a trajectory of going from kind of technical expert sort of perhaps earlier in their career as the key identity to more of a leader and a shaper and an influencer still with that expertise. Do you remember a time when you shifted your identity or your way of thinking from being the expert to being the leader? If that makes sense, tell us about that.

Absolutely. It's a very clear one. Doctor, I mean, that was it. I was, you know, medically trained, but always with an academic interest and did what pretty much everyone did it with their specialties in my time. And I specialized in infectious diseases, clinical microbiology, which was to spend some of that training time overseas. So when my wife and I were doing our medical training, that was still pretty much the norm. You would go do a lot of your training in New Zealand, the specialist training.

but then a year or two overseas. A generation ahead, of course, everyone did that because there was nowhere else to train in New Zealand. You had to do that. But then there was still that opportunity. we came back from two years in the US and I was quite, to get to the first real job after I trained back in Christchurch and looking for an academic role. And within a couple of years, one turned up. I just happened to be head of a department and you know, I was still in my thirties.

So how were you?

Professor and head of department, was not kind of what, that's not the entry level role that I was anticipating. I was encouraged to apply, I managed to get the job. And so I was really thrown into a very clear leadership role.

Can I just check, had you had any leadership experience before that?

Nothing out of the ordinary. Trained as a doctor and there's no leadership training in medicine.

So what is going through your head at the time when you're taking, saying yes to this role?

I was pretty anxious. Clearly an opportunity had a lot of encouragement. They really took a punt on me. And yeah, I there's a huge degree of anxiety about going into that kind of role. And there were people in my department who were very eminent and very senior. having to do performance reviews on these very well, there was a lot of learning. But there was the support within the department particularly and the dean that

appointed me was very supportive and somebody whose career we still intersect pretty regularly in different roles. There was the support, but actually it was also a realisation. Actually leadership can be fun. You know, I can remember that in that first year from, gosh, you know, I'm going to have to learn a lot here, to actually realising one that actually, you know, you do need to work on it, you do need to learn it, but actually realising you had some ability, but you needed to work on it.

and then realising that you're operating at a level within the organisation that actually could influence things. You could make change, you could help people, you could facilitate things, you could change the organisation even, or at least you're interacting with people who could do that. So, yeah, very quickly realised, actually, this is not bad. And, you I was told, you it's going to wreck your academic career going into a head of department. You know, what are you doing this for? You're mad. I had so many people say that to

Yet it was probably the best career decision that I've had.

What helped you say yes to that in the face of all that alternative advice, shall we say?

Now when it was an academic role that I was keen to get my foot hold, get into the university, I did see there was a lot of opportunity with it. That was pretty clear. So it wasn't without seeing the positive side. It was clearly a risk. As I say, it was definitely one of the best decisions. And it didn't wreck my academic career. So learning how to do both.

Yeah, I'm curious about that. What with the people saying it's going to wreck your academic career missing? What did they not see in that opportunity that you saw?

Almost to a person, there'll be people who avoided leadership roles in their life and had the, you know, their kind of, perception of leadership would be, they'll probably call it administration. That's what they saw. And, you know, there were people that go, we'll never do that, you know, always avoid that, it's going to take up all your time. But not really realising the leadership aspect of it.

Tell us about that. What's your definition or what was your, how did you frame leadership?

I mean, I guess it was actually being able to operate at a higher level. was, you know, so, and being able to influence, being able to be strategic. I mean, it was realising the level that you're working on. know, so there's a bit of, and we're hopeless in meds and we're hopeless probably in the university in many ways too. And actually being able to promoting these leadership roles, you know, we don't do ourselves any favour. And yet a huge proportion of people will either have to or, you know, it's hard to avoid it in many situations throughout.

as an academic or as a in the medical profession as well to some degree, a large proportion end up in leadership roles at some stage. And, you know, so I again, you know, champion it, tell people early in their careers, you know, think about those leadership roles you might have and embrace it early and get some coaching and train yourself as a leader. You know, actually, it's fun.

I love that you say it's fun. My first serious leadership role was about the same age, was early thirties and I wouldn't have called it fun. I was in over my head. I didn't have much of a support structure around me and I burned out and I wouldn't have called it fun. So what do you think helped keep it fun?

cut fall piss and so you know I there was certainly some pretty rough times there's absolutely no question about that but you know there are enough really I mean the positive moments obviously you know the ones that keep you going. I ended up as head of department for nearly 14 years way longer than anyone should be in a department and never anticipated that would have happened but the enjoyable aspects clearly outweigh the other tougher times and of course you got better at it as time went on better at both dealing with the tough things

obviously and as well as the others.

Yeah, there's that just learning as you go and I'm getting a sense of backing yourself more and more. Yes. I actually, I can do this. Yeah. And I've got a mantra. I can do hard things and the more experienced I get, so hard things are just going to come at me. It's part of life. Isn't okay. Well, I can do hard things because I've got evidence. I've done it before and that helps me breathe easy when I've got to make tough decisions and make calls and things like that. I want to just.

Luke to the you mentioned you encourage young people to take on opportunities to leadership roles. You also said to me once that make sure you work with young people. Tell me about why that's important.

I just think it's work with people who have energy and excitement and fresh ideas. And in fact, I learned that myself, but actually there was somebody I worked with in the US who always said that. It was as retirement, actually. I was there when he was retiring and he said, you know, that was one thing, but I learned that separately. mean, and we don't think of it enough, you know, in terms of new initiatives, actually getting younger people involved and helping making, you know, some decisions. know, we have, for example, we're about to

starter, we've got a research platform that we've got some funding to do in a national entity. And we're looking at actually getting younger people to be involved right from the start, a younger generation. course, your definition of younger changes as you get older, it's still like, that's right. But it is actually being able to just working, the energy, the fresh ideas, it's fairly obvious, but we don't always do it well.

Everyone's younger.

What gets in the way do you reckon?

just the idea that wisdom comes with age. I think that's probably part of it. always have, I just like the idea of always having young people in the But it's the energy, having students around. mean, students around are fabulous. Asking questions all the time and being amazingly insightful actually and just bringing the fresh perspective. agree.

I've got my 18 year old son doing a bit of work for me in my practice, just a little project over summer. And he said to me, this is cool, dad, because I'm going to get to learn actually what you do. Yes. That'll bring us closer. Yet when I told him what the project was, it's essentially getting all of my IP and all of my stuff ready to kind of put into an AI system that can then we're to call it the dig bot, the digby Scott bot.

And just as an experiment, we're to try it out, but he's going to go through all my stuff. And he's only a couple of days into it. He's already asking me hard questions. Like, why do you even do this, dad? You know, what's the point of this? I'm like, that's a good question. Why do I have that? Right. And there's something about the, almost the opposite of wisdom. It's the fresh naivety and the naive question, which really stops me in my tracks. I'm like, wow, thanks for the question. You know,

It's beautiful, hey? How do you day to day ensure that you get access to young people? How do you set up your days, your weeks to just make sure you've got that exposure?

Absolutely.

I still work a small proportion of my time at the university. That's easy, okay? I've got young people around all the time. And that's the environment that I've had for most of my career. you know, that's been really easy. It doesn't take much. You just have to go into the cafe or down the corridor and speak to someone. You know, people are around doing interesting stuff. otherwise it's just having your teams that are a mix of perspectives in your team. for me, hasn't been as particularly as most of my career has been in the university. That's been pretty easy.

You you're getting me thinking about my other son who's 24. He's got an honors degree in physiology and he's been wanting to work here in Wellington. He's found it really, really hard to get a job. The amount of people that are out of work at the moment in this city is pretty high. And so he's competing against a whole lot of people that have got a whole lot more experience than him.

And there's something about what we're talking about, which is, why wouldn't you hire the inexperienced person who's going ask all the questions, not the one who's got all the answers? And I reckon we get out of whack. I talk about this idea of there's delivery and discovery. So we've got to deliver stuff, but we've got to keep learning and growing. you know, experience can help us deliver faster, yet discovery can come from the questions that young people bring. I think we're missing a trick not to kind of be saying, hey, give my son a job.

Absurdly.

but more of a, you know what, there's something about the hiring policies and the promotion policy, you know, give young people a go at this leadership stuff, which I reckon we're missing out on.

You know, I often reflect on those who gave me my first chance as the head of department. They're pretty jolly brave, you know? Yeah. And just took a punt. But no, was, I mean, not only frequently think about that and think of times also when we're just thinking about how we select. And there's certainly many times, I think of many people who were appointed to even to other professor roles that were quite young, but they were just right.

and often overlooking what might have been the traditional pathway. But giving people a chance is certainly something we could do better at.

You've mentioned more than once in this conversation that people backed you. You know, it's like they give you the chance and there's something so important about that. think which requires us to trust and to, know, that, we might not get it right every time, which is, you know, interesting in an academic environment, which is the way I think about that. Not being one myself, there's a, I get a sense that we've got to get it right. We've got to be experts here and

What was that like being in an environment where expertise is the thing that's valued and you're going, well, I'm just learning this leadership stuff.

You know, I said I was supportive, but it wasn't the leadership training that now happens. And in fact, my university subsequently instituted a whole program of activity about leadership training, which is great. I mean, really, really good. And so there was an expectation. New heads of department had induction programs. There's a constant program of activities. That's a leadership development program. And people are identified on as heads of department with flag, new.

staff with the program say, actually, we need to get these people on. And it's really good. it involves both those involved in the program, pulling people outside, mostly inside the organisation. And, university pretty big, so there's a lot of good people to come and talk about their experiences. But, you know, hugely different from when I started, and just really wonderful. I mean, really, really good. But, you know, that was, I think, really, really worthwhile.

initiative, it played huge dividends, yeah.

Absolutely, I mean that accelerates it, but you do it well. It's absolutely. Now you've been mostly out of the university environment for how many years now? Three?

With PH of Science, I mean really just over a year to be honest. Okay. Since the beginning of last year I was a full-time academic and now I've been with PH of Science.

What was that transition like to kind of come from academia into more of a, yeah, I guess you could not necessarily a commercial organisation, but a business, so to speak.

Well, yes, there big changes. I think that in terms of the organisational culture, very different. I mean, universities are odd places. mean, how often do get a, you know, full of really bright people who are acting independently, you know, and it is unusual. So working in environment where it's slightly different, you know, closer to the government. You know, I think that's definitely different, much more, you know, conservative in many ways.

Reliant on quite a few key contracts and so there's a behavior around that about how you're managing those contracts and doing what people are asking you to do. So quite a few differences and different across the organisation to a lot of different cultures within it.

There'll be a lot of people listening to this who, you know, may be considering transitioning roles because it happens for all of us from time to time. What helps you make the transition from one culture to another?

Oh, the huge attraction was the fact that, you know, PHF Science is going through change and actually being able to be part of that and knowing that government review of the science sector, the organisation was changing a really important organisation. And here was the chance to really just make it even better, more agile for purpose, provides critical infrastructure for the country. So that was a huge attraction to be able to be part of that journey and say, okay, you know, this is an organisation I've interacted with.

through a lot of my career and here's a chance to make it really something quite special. that was hugely motivating. And being through universities can be quite conservative in terms of quite traditional, I guess, in terms of some of the changes take a bit longer. And so to have that opportunity, it was a big attraction for me.

Also, was it that Ashley Bloomfield, previous guest on this podcast, is leading the organisation? You work very closely with that. What was the attraction of working with a leader like Ashley? How did that factor into your decision?

I mean, you're absolutely right. mean, it was actually looking at the team working with Ashley, who I knew before, but just hadn't worked as closely with him. And also, you know, the board, other people just looking at that leadership and going, these are people I can work with. Absolutely. There is no question that was influential as well.

So it's not just here's the opportunity to make change happen. It's who am I doing this with? Yeah. And critical questions. I'd love to shift to this idea of change and the impact that you're trying to create with PhD of science, but perhaps also the impact that you have created in your career to date. And I'm curious about this idea of leading lasting impact. So when your tenure is done and you're out,

That's right.

You've gone off to something else. The idea, how do you ensure as best you can that the time you spend in role is contributing to a positive lasting impact? What comes up when I share that idea of, and that question, what comes up for you?

It almost sounds like it's starting out on a negative. I think there's also, I'm very aware that you can't assume you have a legacy. I just knowing that actually when you move from a role, know, things change quite rapidly in terms of somebody else taking that on. And there's sometimes, you know, your expectations, you really do need to temper them a bit. And this realise actually, you know, your time is your time and you can do that. But having said that, I think.

I mean, some people might be having a building in their name and others, it is obviously some ways that some people do it, but certainly there's no attraction for me. But in terms of leaving an enduring culture, I guess, is something that I think is probably, that's priceless if you can do that. mean, talking about a positive culture, conducive culture in the organisation and being able to be part of that. And importantly, being able to help others succeed, be successful, be able to

have a succession plan. For me, that's getting most of my enjoyment is seeing the success of others that I've worked with, no question. That can be a pretty silent thing sometimes, but you're actually just seeing, there are quite a number of people who may not have been professors now, how they're not just proud of them at the right time, or they've been delayed in that trajectory and being aware that not everyone.

is good at dealing with a university's promotion policy and others a bit more find that's quite a challenge and they put themselves forward may not be difficult and knowing women, Māori, Pacific people, this is a pretty common problem. not problem, it's an issue. And knowing our system that we have, being able to help navigate through that and being able to help people, know, just navigate the system, but actually be successful in their careers as well. So.

I mean, they're the first things that certainly come to mind and having a succession plan. mean, I've witnessed organisations where they've had a major founder effect where, you know, the founder has died or retired and there's no succession plan and the organisation found us. I mean, you really, it's really important to be able to set that foundation and have people, you know, to grow people that can take on the role. Of course, the biggest, you know, things continue well while you're not there and not.

doing things, it's a fantastic sign.

Well, that is the sign, isn't it? It's like when you're away. was talking to an executive last week and he was about to lead an offsite with his team for a day, one of those planning days. And in the morning, he got a call from the school just after he dropped his son off at school and his son's really sick. You've got to come and get him. So he's like, well, there goes my day. I'm going to dad mode, not leader mode. And the team went out.

ahead with the day without him. And according to what he said to me afterwards, he said they had an incredible day of super productive, lots of learning, lots of connection, all the things you hope for one of these sessions is I wasn't even there. And I said, what does that tell you about what your role is? Yeah. What are you actually here for is to create the conditions for that to happen. It looks like you've done it. So he, he reflected on that. I think it's if we can hold this idea that my job is to

develop others to step into the vacuum that perhaps I am currently filling. And it sounds to me that's your mantra as well. It's like I'm hearing humility. All I can do is my bit. And my bit primarily is about more a large part is about developing others. Would that be a fair summary?

Yeah, no, think that is. I think that is.

This founder effect gets me thinking about what are the warning signs? It doesn't have to be for business founders, but I'm also thinking for senior leaders, CEOs who are in roles that perhaps they become the go-to. What are the signs that we need to look out for that perhaps, actually we need to course correct here around this.

It's the lack of delegation, the lack of dependencies. I think in many ways it's been very obvious in the situations that I've seen it and there've been plenty of warnings and efforts to try and change things that have failed. So it's usually been fairly apparent if this got a dominating character that is still taking on or making most of the key decisions, most of all.

organisation revolves around them. And sometimes that's important. know, and some that, you know, one in particular I can think of where actually it was critical because that person was very famous. And so that was the whole credibility was of the organisation. The reason that existed was around that person. And in fact, that was an example of the original vision was actually to burn bright and finish. But it was others actually that wanted to keep it going in many ways that, you know, and that

Yeah, it really was a founder fee, but maybe not the intention of the founder in many ways. So, you know, it was quite interesting.

There's definitely something about this. This is about the work. It's not about the person. Yet if the person becomes the centre, then we need to, how do we build systems around that to ensure that when they're not there, they carry on or the idea carries on? Yeah. It's a big burning question for me right now. There's a humility to you, David, that I think almost I would say

There's no risk of this happening. Yeah. Your impact, your ripple effects, because you're focusing on others and their success. It's almost like, well, there's the work.

And we haven't talked about trusting, but you know, that's so well, that's so much part of it is actually being able to trust people to do things. you know, the work environments that I've been in, they work so much better with a high trust, high accountability model and being able to have a devolved leadership where you're trusting people with a big complex organisation. don't think you're doing anything else really, but, you know, often the problems happen and particularly with gaps between the leadership and the rest of the organisation happen when, when that trust.

disappears. And in terms of going back to the founder effect, mean, is we, you know, initially giving the trust for people to take on those roles.

If there was one mantra piece of advice that you would give to leaders around how to create cultural trust, environment of trust, what would you say?

There's a lot about getting to know people and understand people's capabilities, giving people chances, delegating in a good way, learning to delegate, but then being very thoughtful about that, giving people chances. And there's a listening piece as well, be a really good listener, you know, to be picking up and learning about people. I guess other things that I'm not sure it's one piece of advice, but I think it's also being able to.

talk about it and be able to talk explicitly about having a trust model and being able to trust people in roles. I it's huge. I mean, you can just see it. And seizing those opportunities to do that. You know, I can remember, earlier in the days as head of department, was going, he was an obvious deputy. He'd been the acting head before I started. Happened that both of us were going away. So I said, oh, well, I've got, you who are, sorry, actually the senior person, I go to them.

and they almost fell over. I said, nobody's ever asked me that. It was also slightly more complex because in fact it was a department where there were in the past, those with medical degrees were often treated a bit differently from those who didn't, the scientists. And it happened this person was a very, very senior eminent scientist and she had never been asked that. And to me she was the most obvious person and it was just, you know, thinking about those things and.

but as also, you know, just giving people the opportunity.

That's huge in your makeup. This idea of giving people the opportunity and showing that you trust them and you back them. You believe in them, you know, massively. Hey, yeah. And I really, really love that. As we bring this to a close, I know we're to hang out more because I'm definitely coming past your place to check out your workshop at some point soon. It's been such a rich conversation.

Yes.

And I feel like we're only scratched the surface. I'm wondering what's come up for you as we've talked that you've learned, you've been reminded of that's either fresh for you or it's like a little nudge for you. What's popped up for you?

It's interesting, it's actually a piece we haven't talked about. And it's quite interesting because, and I'm reflecting how this part of really, really critical influence on the life of my wife and I, we actually haven't talked about it. I don't want to necessarily start a whole... And it's quite interesting that it hasn't come up. And that was, you know, the two years that we spent in Nepal. So my wife and I were both in the same class of medical school.

Let's do it, we have time.

In the midst of our specialist training, so we graduated a few years, we were in our late 20s, we were part way through our specialist training. We took this opportunity to run a hospital, basically the sole doctors in a very remote hospital in Nepal, the Hillary Hospital, and in the Mount Everest region. And this was like a complete break for two years. And remote, at that time, it was seven days walk to the nearest road, just to give us

a sense, no electricity. Yeah, we didn't have a radio. We had got shortwave. We'd received the BBC. We had a mail runner that came every two weeks. We weren't paid. And at the time, it was the best job in the world. And we knew it at the time, know, quite extraordinary experience in a small Sherpa village. So that was hugely influential on our lives to take a break of two years where we had to.

This is Wild West.

rely a lot on each other and our colleagues learn to have the absolute privilege to live within a small community and be taken into that community and be part of that community, even though it came from a very different culture. And the lessons from that time are immense for both of us and probably live with us every day just in terms of how you go about business, how you understand others' perspectives.

you know, when you're at, you know, effectively you were a guest in someone else's place for two years, how you operate in that place, learning a different system and different values and being taught so many life lessons, but also having to rely on each other a lot through some, you know, pretty, we were it. So there were some pretty dramatic things we had to deal with at times. I guess that's the reflection of that part of life. And I suppose, and that was before, you know, I mentioned that the

It was clearly a time when I took on a leisure role. mean, there were bits of it there because we were the doctors in quite a large area, the only ones. there was, so there was, and we would, with our Sherpa colleagues were running the place, but it was having to learn quite a lot about how you do that, left to our own devices. So we were quite, there was a lot of independence there and being able to manage it. So yeah, I guess there's quite a few.

leadership lessons there that probably weren't at the time really obvious. The first person I've ever fired, for example, was there as well. That's a dramatic story in itself. you know, there were leadership roles there, but wouldn't have classically thought that there was a ledger. We were very much thinking that was a clinical role. We were doctors there. We were serving. But actually there was a lot of leadership.

It's their best job in the world and not getting paid. That's fascinating in itself. What made it in your mind the best job in the world?

It was the most stunningly beautiful part of the world. mean, with a phenomenally wonderful community to live in. It was just an absolute privilege to know every part of that. there was no question about your work was valued. That was the thing, it was just no question. And the re-entry to New Zealand was pretty hard at times, just being able to

slot back in, be another hospital doctor and get back into training again and seeing different sorts of diseases. I mean, it didn't take too long, but it was quite an adjustment coming back after that period of time. it was, knowing that this was a pretty special opportunity, we never, never lost sight of that, what a privilege it was to have that opportunity. And we knew it was two years. So, yeah, it was a two-year posting.

I guess that was in our minds, even though it was the best job, guess it would be inappropriate for us to think about it being longer, and especially now, foreign doctors not needed there, which was the ultimate aim of the place.

There you go, there's Lasting Impact. There's something also about the scarcity factor at play here, which is, only got two years, let's make the most of it. There's something about, this is Matenya.

That's right. Absolutely.

And, you know, I was back there last month. Massive, massive changes. That's fine. I mean, there's a development. you know, electricity, you get wifi everywhere, right to the highest point, you know, it's just incredibly different, incredibly different. But, you know, 30 years on going back to the hospital, seeing our photographs on the wall still, you know, and, you know, there was...

How was that?

with all the other volunteers who've worked there and others along the way, and catching up with the two health workers who we effectively lived with for two years who were there and catching up with them. That was wonderful. it was the knowing things change and that's absolutely fine. You know, I think that was, it's changed almost beyond recognition, but that's just the way things happen. But the actual, I went there with no expectation that people would remember me or that, you know, have those special moments.

They did, you know, and so that was great.

You're part of the story, aren't you? Yeah. You're part of the story of what's happened and you've done your bit.

And in fact, there's a visitor centre. the first school that was built by the Hermione Trust, which is Edmund Hillary's organisation, they have a kind of memorial for Edmund Hillary in the school and his work. And it's wonderful. It's a wonderful, I hadn't seen it before. So it's been put together fairly recently. And to go in there and to see, and see some familiar shepherd faces and photographs on the wall and the work being done. And then suddenly turning the corner and there's

little TV display with rotating images, very, very modern, very professionally done. And there we are. Our photographs, you know, our names there as rotating through these with the doctors in the hospital, totally unexpected. Totally unexpected. And that was very nice. But yeah, again, not anticipating that, but just seeing how things have moved on and the friendships are still there, which was great.

any expectations.

A of people had moved on that.

That's what's endures, right? What would you say to a young up and coming leader who's looking to grow their leadership and they're faced with an opportunity like this besides go do it, which I'm assuming you would say. Maybe the question is how would you help them think about what they're going to learn from an experience like this or how they go and learn from an experience like this?

All right.

Because I think we both believe that getting out of your normal is a really powerful way to grow and learn. What would your advice be about how to approach a situation like that?

Sorry for you.

I mean, you're right. will say just go for it. I think those opportunities, it is seizing those opportunities and not being afraid because we could have easily, well, it's going to ruin our careers. People will be out of the system for two years. Nobody's going be able, how are we going to get jobs? And of course that was rubbish. And I think that what I say to people is really take those opportunities, really do this. Take something that's different. If you are good at what you do, you'll find your place. And you can worry.

about what might happen, but actually if you're working hard to be good at what you do, you'll get a good job. You'll get what, you know, things will generally work out. And if you worry about what's going to happen because you might be derailed, you know, you're going to miss these wonderful opportunities. And it's true in medicine, like if you're training to be a surgeon, that probably would derail it because it's very competitive. But I can remember the College of Physicians, when I asked them for it.

a two year break from the training. You know, they wrote all the usual things, you know, you'll need to catch up on this. But the thing that I remember, and I think I still have the letter with us, said, we commend what you're doing. You know, they said that in the letter. What a gift. And I thought, you know, what more can you say? And that was great. And I can say, yeah, we were Pepsi. Had two years out, but my gosh, you know, pretty amazing. And we caught up and it hasn't stopped me. You know, I still ended up being the head of department in my thirties, you know.

professor and head of department in my 30s. I just encourage people to do it. And I acknowledge this is generational thing and certainly in the medical profession, the trainees don't go overseas at all, which I think is an absolute shame because it's the time in their lives when they can do this and it probably won't happen again. And it was unusual for us because we had both, we worked in the US and we worked in other places, but this was a complete break in somewhere that was

a completely different environment, but just thinking of the life experiences and the lessons we've had and, you know, our two daughters have got Sherpa Middle Aims and their house is full of memorabilia and you know, there are things like that. My passwords all used to be in Sherpa and you know, the things like, you it's just, you know, it's enduring. It really is enduring and it's led to a connection, a connection so many ways, so many ways. I mean, in terms of...

Some of my oldest friends around the world have been, there's been a connection through Nepal in one way or the other. And one thing's led to another. I mean, that's the other thing. You just do not know where things lead. The Nepal connection has actually led to a huge, you know, last portion of my career and connections in my career. And I'm still, we still have a research collaboration in Kathmandu that's been going over 20 years now. They're steamed from that. And some chance meetings that happened.

following that and chance connections, but you just never know. And I think that's one thing, if you're just taking those opportunities, you're opening yourself up for all sorts of possibilities exponentially, rather than if you're not.

And you just don't know until you're... Yeah. There's something about a diverse life as a rich life. You know, it's the fact that you've done that, you've gone away from what you're alluding to as a bit of a race that you've got to catch up on. You're actually, well, maybe I don't want to run that race. Maybe I want to create my own journey. It's not a race, it's an experience. You know, there's something very powerful about that for all of us. And whether you can, if you're choosing to do medicine.

Absolutely never though.

and that's not available now, well, you know, you can still look for diverse experiences in other ways. Really powerful, which I suspect also helps inform how you think about leadership and living now by the sounds of it. So powerful. I want to ask you the question again. So we've had a rich conversation. We've gone many different directions. What's still resonating for you?

No,

There's a question or an idea that's come up. What's there now for you?

And obviously, I'm, you know, at the stage of my career and I'm, I think it's just highlighted the, that I'm really keen just to spend a lot of time with the others, you know, helping out the next generation, I suppose. It sounds a little bit cliche, but I mean, that's exactly what I'm, you know, I think of the opportunities I had and I just think of the people that really influenced me and, you know, just the ability just to get that next generation through. And things are,

so different as well. That's the other thing I think there's some ways you think I think we you know some aspects were a lot easier than now and others a lot different now but just being able to help navigate that time and so yeah you've just focused a bit more on that.

Yep. It comes through in loud and right through. How can people get a hold of you, David, if they want to connect?

I LinkedIn's a good way. I was a relatively late comer to LinkedIn, but I'm now, I like LinkedIn. Yeah, I think it's very effective. Absolutely.

Great place to connect. So David Murdoch will find you on LinkedIn. David, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Physically.

affection from me after that conversation with David. One thing that's really stuck with me is his generosity, not just in how he gives guitars away, which is cool, but also in his approach to leadership that he genuinely gives his time to develop others. He's there to back others. He shows that he wants to give others opportunities. And I reckon that's a little unusual. I think often we can think about

when we need to lead is to be showing people the way and being the leader. Whereas in fact, what if leadership instead was about developing others, about helping them discover their own leadership ability? Man, that would be powerful, wouldn't it? And I reckon David's an exemplar of that. What's this got you thinking? I hope it's got some nuggets, some gems, some gold there for you. And I'd love it if you could...

share that with someone else. share the podcast, share the episode, share the questions, the ideas that have come up for you with others you reckon might be interested. You might also want to check out the conversation I had with David's colleague, Ashley Bloomfield, who is episode seven, another exemplary leader who also demonstrates incredible humility, as well as this fierce drive to make the world better. Check that out.

You also might like my writing. I write a weekly newsletter and you can check out my ideas there around leading well and living deliberately at digbyscott.com forward slash thoughts. Check that out. This is Dig Deeper, I'm Digby Scott. Until next time, go well.