This episode explores individualism in today’s society, focusing on how people balance personal identity with societal expectations and group norms. The discussion also covers how technology and socioeconomic factors shape individual behavior, ultimately raising questions about how authentic individualism can be, in an increasingly connected world.

Website: Social Science and Humanities Department at LCC

Welcome to the Sociological POV. This podcast emerged from some fascinating discussions in an introductory sociology course at Lansing Community College, where we attempt to gain insight into other people's perspectives, the good, the bad, and the world around us. We hope to mirror that concept with this podcast as we welcome a range of voices from diverse backgrounds to share their thoughts on a current event or topic that matters. So with that said, let's get into it and start gaining perspective.

All right, welcome to the Sociological pov. We are going to talk about individualism today. You're here with Aliza and.

Hi, I'm Bryce.

My name is Guutama.

I'm Camille.

All right, so this is going to be a pretty interesting discussion. We're going to first talk about what does it mean in our culture? What does individualism mean in our culture? What do you guys think?

Well, so I think the way that I looked at it was, to me, individualism. Typically, in our culture, I think we're very. We like to divide and categorize.

I think an individual kind of sticks out in the clothes that they wear, the kind of group that they fit into.

I thought, like, within our society, it kind of means, like, you're responsible for your own life outcomes and to kind.

Of go on that. You know, the way you work hard, it. Being independent, your success is based off of your individual effort. I should say.

So.

And you guys are talking about kind of the. The beliefs that go into being an individual.

And Bryce, you were saying more like, we represent the individual through what you're wearing, through kind of the physical. The material projection of the individual. But each individual, I think, is expected to do these things that you guys mentioned.

Work hard and take care of yourself. Yeah.

Does that sound right?

Are there.

Are there different ideas of individualism out there, or is that just pretty much shared, do you think, across generations?

And I think it would be hard to say that it's, like, shared across cultures within the US because so many people have different beliefs and values that would go into shaping how they think individualism plays a role in their life. Like, I'm sure some people think that individualism is more like free will. Like, I'm an individual.

I can do what I want because, you know, America is land of the free. And so a lot of people probably take that as we have free will to do what we want.

Well, my idea of individualism is more tailored around, like, social mobility and how you further improve your life.

But I think it can definitely be different and have different definitions just based off of, like, where you started in your Life and the kinds of opportunities that you were presented to from a young age.

And the individualism in the way where you can be self reliant through being an individual. That generational thing specifically.

I know I've had conversations with my mother who's like, she always believes that you have to call someplace, you have to call them, you have to get a hold of a real person otherwise.

But for me, I prefer whenever there's an option through the use of our technology, if I can like book an appointment through an email, basically anything where you don't even have to talk to a human being, I find it easier. But she's all about that thing of making that contact.

So I think that generational thing of they need to see that interaction, hear that voice, for it to. For it to be real kind of thing.

Do you think that makes people more able to act as individuals? The technology that we have today because you don't need other people to rely on?

Yeah, yeah. I do think that our technology allows us to be more individual and kind of see ourselves as an island.

But honestly, I would think we've taken a little too far.

Like you said, my mom is a similar way where she wants to talk to someone, but I feel that my reluctance to do that will sometimes be a hindrance and I should just take her advice and go talk to someone.

Yeah, sometimes I've definitely had that problem where you. You can't reach them through email or something like that. And it's like I could call them, but it's always just.

Yeah.

Does individualism have anything to do with how you think? So you've said about material projection and you've talked about behavior and work. What about thinking to be an individual?

Are you different in how you think?

Yeah, I definitely think so. Someone who wants to be an individual in that way, you definitely have a. Well, a different point of thinking.

I guess I'm comparing it to like groupthink, for example, where you would be the other extreme. Like where you're thinking like everybody else and you have a hard time pulling away from what the group is thinking. I would imagine individualism.

Tell me if you disagree. Is the. On the other end, where it's like I have the ability to think separately from you. That might not be included in how you define it.

I just was throwing that out there. What do you guys think?

I think that people want to think that they're thinking differently and maybe they are within like smaller scale stuff of like favorite foods or stuff like that. But for the most part, people fall within a specific group, and people within that group are probably going to think pretty similarly.

Yes. A big thing that I was thinking of was counterculture, like, counterculture ideals.

If you're in a large group society, whatever it is, whatever you may ascribe to as the counterculture, that may be going against what they do, what are their norms. But there are other groups. That's why it's a counterculture. It's not a individual, it's a group.

And they may not be in one area, but sometimes they are a larger group in an area.

So I guess what I'm saying is you can be individualistic in groups, but really you're kind of, you know, putting yourself in that descriptive category. You're being described as assigned something, really.

So it's hard to be an individual.

If you're in a group.

Yeah, I think so.

Okay.

Can. Can anybody ever really be separate from the group and thinking.

I mean, there. I think if you really attempt to actually separate yourself, you might be able to. But there's a whole group of people who are trying to be different.

If you. Even if your, like, location, you're different from the people you think.

If you went to New York, I promise you'd find at least 10 different people who think the exact same thing, even if you're trying to go against the grain.

Mm. Yeah. So our culture does seem to be very, like, want to be deviant, almost want to be. To be an individual. I'm going to be different intentionally.

We promote those ideas as a way to kind of, I think, further, what you guys were talking about, kind of make it on your own. It supports that idea of, I can make this on my own because I'm different. I'm doing my own thing.

Yeah. I also feel like our society kind of pushes the idea that you have to have something that makes you special.

And so, like, when people feel that they don't have something that makes them special, they'll make it. Whether it's the way they present themselves or interest or hobbies, they want to feel like they're not just like everybody else.

Yeah, I definitely. I feel like I've come across that.

An example is that, you know, back in high school, years ago or whatever, I'd have this friend group, and we're all really into music, so we'd all share our music tastes. And mostly it would be, like, classic rock stuff that our dads would like that we would listen to.

And it was just a really classic rock kind of friend group. And then as I, like, kind of would Experiment on my own with, like, reaching out to, like, more modern rock that would evolve.

And then when I'd come back and kind of share those, they would. It would really just not be very receptive to it. They'd be like, oh, this is garbage. So I'd be like, oh, okay.

And so I would either stop listening to it a little bit on my own, or I would mostly just keep those tastes to myself.

And then not being in that group anymore gave me the confidence to kind of explore those kinds of genres, realize that I do like them, and that, you know, that individuality that those artists have by being either indie or alternative or, like, describing to those counterculture groups that aren't popular with the majority kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah.

And pop. And, like, you know, in.

In our culture these days, you know, everyone wants to be different or especially, like, in media, what is the new thing that makes them edgy? What. What. What have we not seen before? And that's always, like, transforming into, like, a new definition of what it is.

And I feel like sometimes it gets even more extreme a little bit.

Yeah, we definitely saw a lot of that, like, over Covid, when everybody only had their phones.

Like, you saw an influx of people who, if they had, like, gone to school or out in public and, like, some of the styles they were wearing, they would have been, like, crazy, insane. Like, oh, what are you wearing?

But then during COVID so many people, like, subscribed to these certain types of styles that it just became so normal to see them in public, where it was almost weirder to see someone who didn't have something that was, like, different about them, whether it was, like, colored hair, different piercings, different clothes. Like, seeing someone with just, like, normal, at least younger generations. I don't know.

Yeah. So almost the social isolation helped increase the experimentation of being an individual.

Yeah. I didn't even want makeup before COVID Interesting.

Okay. Yeah. When.

When you guys were talking, I was thinking of tattoos, like, how that would be a good example of, like, you know, in the past, it was, like, only men in the army would get these basic tattoos that, you know, these specific ones. And now it's like they're almost like a symbol of getting a tattoo is a symbol of individual.

But then I'm sure if you took a huge population like New York City, you would find pretty strong patterns across gender, social class.

You know, you'd see those patterns.

Funnily enough, like, that's almost switched where, like, so many people in our generations are getting tattoos where, like, I personally don't want to tattoo ever. When I tell people that, they're like, you don't want to tattoo? Like, not even a small one.

Like, I have multiple family members being like, come on, get a tattoo with me. I'm like, no, I don't want a tattoo.

So it's become. You've. You're unique in that way then.

I mean, there's probably a lot of.

People like, but I'm sure, yeah, I think, yeah. Tattoos are an interesting thing. I have at least one that's mostly visible most of the time, and I will get comments on it.

Usually it's a dinosaur skull, and people will see it as a skull, and they'll be like, oh, that's cool. Or I've had people who know it's a dinosaur skull, and we start a conversation just based off that because kind of that connection that's in there.

So.

So there's that social piece to it.

Yeah, yeah.

In a way, it's a group, a way to connect.

It's like, that's not the reason why I got it. I got it because that was part of my personality that set me apart, was that I'm what have always just been interested in that sort of thing.

Dinosaurs and nerdy stuff. But by displaying that, I guess that makes it slightly less individual, having it shared now as a. Like a physical out there kind of thing.

And then there's tattoos that would be different than the individualistic ones, like religious tattoos or gang tattoos, which would be like, this is a part of your identity. Although they're all really, I mean, part of your identity. Right? Yeah. Interesting.

So what do you guys think about what might cause a decrease in actually acting as an individual and thinking as an individual, so moving away from individualism in our culture? I think we believe that we're being individualistic, but some. There's some things happening that make me think we're.

We're becoming less individualistic or at least thinking independently, if that's part of your definition. What do you guys think might cause us to move in a different direction, away from that and do more group thinking?

Well, I think that, like, previously individualism in our society had caused people to think that their life outcomes are their fault and that they didn't try hard enough when really there were, like, greater socioeconomic forces contributing to why their life ended up certain ways. And I feel that we are moving to a more de. Individualized culture, but also how we could is like, class consciousness.

Because if we find out, like, why things are happening in our lives, like, why My family grew up like, like, you know, like, oh, why is my whole family in poverty? Why did generations continue to live like this? Like, it's not that they didn't try hard enough.

It's that there were just other factors that went into their lives that they couldn't control. And that's kind of part of, like, if people realize that, it would probably de.

Individualize us because we start looking around and realizing everybody's going through these same issues.

Yeah.

Like, if you, you know, oppression seems to bring people together because the people that are going through that kind of oppression tend to, like, latch to each other for support and, and potentially change and revolution maybe. And it's, it's. It's kind of, you know, it's messed up to me how trauma or negative circumstances can.

Is what can be like a leading cause for people to connect with each other. And it kind of says something about, like, our society right now, if that is, you know, if that's the case.

I think in a. In a similar vein, but kind of like preemptively to what you said about the.

The bonding together for hope for potentially like, revolution, that type of scenario. I was thinking places comparatively with more individualization.

Like, I think the U.S. although we may have our problem areas, we are a fairly individualized culture, but you look at places with more strict governments.

And that's not to say that those people in those societies don't have individualism, but they are pressured either not to show it or whatever have you under threat of whatever the structural power will allow.

Yeah. So it sounds like there's some good parts of becoming less individualistic and maybe some good parts of being individualistic.

There's a term for it. They call it echo chambers. And that's also.

The Internet has definitely helped that where you'll go on like some sort of Internet forum, because this is your opinion and you find a group that share your opinion. So when you're saying things, potentially true or false things, however it may be, you're saying them and other people are repeating your sentiment.

They're not really trying to argue with you, not let your oppose a different opinion. They all agree. And that's definitely led to some very negative thinking in mass groups because all they hear is confirmation bias.

They think, because this large group agrees with me, obviously what I'm thinking is. Right. Type of thing.

Yeah. And what would you guys say about being able to think more independently? Does it have to come with being educated?

Does it have to come with a certain group? Is there a limit to that? Because some people might say, well, I'm more educated so I can think more independently. Is that true?

I think that there could be some basis to that, but it's just not true. True by itself. You have to have critical thinking skills to be able to think independently.

And you could be the smartest person in the room on science, but not know how to think critically about your life situation.

While on the other hand, someone who doesn't have as much formal education could think so independently because they are able to apply the critical thinking to multiple contexts in their life. But that is to say that more education probably does open more pathways for that critical thinking.

Just because you experience way more types of people, way more perspectives, and you are told to question your own thinking in a formal education setting, whereas you might not question your own thinking in any other place.

Yeah, I think it's definitely those.

When it's a closed off community type of thing, the education, you know, that can help, like you said, but if they're really not growing up, being allowed to change their perspectives, then it's. Yeah, it's really just.

That's. So it's helpful to have the socialization piece early on with parents or family members and friends that are encouraging.

But in the long run you're saying you could have institutionalized educational pieces that help bring that about?

Yeah, it reminds me of like growing up in Alabama in kind of a country environment you had. I mean, I went to a great school, but at the same time everyone thought the same exact way.

And I didn't realize I was part of that group too until I moved to Michigan and realized that there are all these people that think differently than me. And I never challenged that even though I had that education. Just kind of like what you were saying compared to meal. So.

So you do have to have that kind of, you know, challenge to your perspective or, or even like having knowing different people, just.

Just knowing different people that don't look like you or are in the same economic situation as you will really help you like embrace other perspectives or see things from a different way, I think.

Do you guys think that your education so much so far, particularly in college, has helped, has been more open minded to different ideas or. What do you think about that so far?

I'm definitely more open minded to different ideas, like in my work because we are like told to look at every perspective of things. But within like lcc, I don't feel that we see many different perspectives.

Just kind of because Lansing, Michigan is a more like liberal, Democratic, diverse area. And with that comes a lot of similar opinions. Like, sure, if you go 30 minutes, any direction, you're going to have different opinions.

But if you're just talking about within lcc, most likely going to hear at least some of the same rhetoric.

Of course there's outliers and especially if you're seeking out those type of people who are different from you, but otherwise you're probably going to hear similar stuff.

Okay.

Yeah. I mean, I think I've come across a similar thing where it's very much like, like for example, I'm a. I'm a member of.

I'm one of the staff officers of the community art club. And it is that thing where you get that, that group of people there and on their own everyone is.

And still sometimes in the group, everyone's very individualistic, but ironically together, you know, you definitely have those similarities. Everyone's not everyone, but most people are of a similar type of background. So you do kind of get them together.

And that does remove some of the individuality, but it definitely doesn't remove like their character at all, which is, you know, the, the great part about it.

It's also probably different at LCC just because we're at a community college where there's more access for more people.

So we're probably see a lot of people who have, I guess, similar perspectives from like as myself, like I grew up low income and so I'm going to LCC to save money. And I'm sure a lot of students, LCC are doing that. But if, and so with that, like growing up in poverty comes a certain ideology for the most part.

Like of course where you live and grow up changes that. But when you grow up poor, you're going to have certain ideas about things.

But then if you go to even like msu, it's a destination school, a lot of people are coming from different places to go there. And so that's where. Where you're going to see a lot of different perspectives.

Okay, I wanted to ask.

We kind of already talked about how technology has played a role in the ability for individuals to operate on their own apart from other from having necessary social interaction. However, I think we all know we're all still dependent on other people to live the lives that we're living.

What do you think about, could individualism exist without exploited labor that's being done by people we have no connection with and we're able to benefit off of labor that's being paid at a low rate where we then benefit by not having to do that labor and maybe not even be aware of that labor happening. And it's usually by poor people around the world or even in this country. Could individualism exist without that happening, that level of inequality?

I think for me personally, that answer is kind of no, it couldn't. But also. Yes, it could. Which may not make that much sense when I say it.

Like, tell me about it.

Yeah, like, in the way that. No, it couldn't. Obviously, as a large society, people who want to be individualistic, you know, they rely on. On, like we said, technology.

They rely on parts that come from different countries all over the world that exploited labor to tie in with, like, counterculture. My point of, yes, it can exist is that if you take, like, a facet of a society, for example, I focused on the.

Individualization in the way that things are the same with radio and clothing. And that's why punk culture just came to say that they wanted to be different. A lot of punk cultures, diy, like, do it yourself.

They would just get cheap clothes. They would rip them up. They would patch stuff together. They'd put metal in it. So that is kind of that thing of. They're not necessarily.

That subculture isn't relying directly on these exploited workers. They're making their own stuff because they are sick of what is offered to them. The clothing industry and the music industry.

And maybe the political scenario at that time allows for a little bit more deviation than, like, as you were talking about earlier, where you have political situations where there's no deviance allowed. But in a more individualistic. Like, you guys were talking about freedom and, you know, these.

These basic rights we think we have, freedom to free speech and all that allows for more, like, flexibility.

Right.

Like deviating.

If you look at the history of it. Yeah. There's obviously British society and. And to an extent also in America, they, you know, they weren't very fond of punk rock.

It started as a sub genre that just kind of grew because young people were starting to connect with it. They felt, oh, I kind of like where this is. It's new, it's different. It's not what my mom and dad like.

So there's also the generational thing where every separating generation kind of flips on what they want because they're going against what the previous one wanted.

Right. Well, and that separation from extended family to nuclear family. And like, now it's almost like the individual operates separately from the family.

Right. You can create your own. We've moved in a pretty extreme direction there.

What.

What do you guys think?

So, I mean, that's like. Yeah. So with industrialization, there were more specialized jobs.

So individuals are, you know, getting more time away from the family to go to their jobs, creating, like, so.

So they're getting distance from their nuclear families and creating, like, an identity with their jobs in a way that, like, now their identity is tied to what they do. Yeah.

You're separating from the family and you're making your own money.

Yeah. Yeah, you're making your own money.

So you become more individualistic in the sense that you're trying to improve your situation or your family's situation.

Yeah. Camille, finish this up.

I don't know if it could exist without exploited labor, just because I think individualism is more of an idea that was pushed on to us because it's easier to control people who think that they're just an island rather than people who work together.

But of course, in a perfect world, sure, individualism could exist without exploited labor because there would be no exploited labor, and everybody would be happy and peaceful in Kumbaya. But I don't know if in a real. Real world, it could actually happen.

Well, and that's interesting, too. You said, like, we. We exist as if we're operating on our own, and we're not. We're so. In a globalized world.

We're so separated from many of the people doing the basic labor that gets us the resources we need. So it's. It's like, you wouldn't be connected to them anyway, like, physically. So it's very hard to. To reconnect all of that.

And it's easy for us to continue kind of living in this society that pretends it's not there.

That's a really good point, because you could try to say, okay, I'm going to live an individual life. I'm going to dig from the mud. I'm going to cut down my trees. I'm going to plant my garden.

But where are you getting the tools to cut down these trees? Where are you getting the seeds for this garden? Like, all of these things make it so you aren't in.

Like, okay, you can say individual in the context of I'm my own person, but an individual in the context of where I exist on my own is almost impossible, especially in an industrialized society, because we don't even have the resources to go out and get these types of seeds or things to make things because the market has been dominated by the people who want to sell it to us. So we can't even go do it by ourselves if we wanted to.

Yeah, good. Good ending. We Great discussion, guys. Thanks for joining today and we'll see you guys next time.

Bye.

Thank you.

Have a good night.

You've been listening to the Sociological POV. Thank you for your time. This podcast is featured as a part of LCC Connect, a podcast network developed by Lansing Community College. To listen to this episode on demand or explore other LCC Connect podcasts, visit lccconnect.com. We hope you'll join us again on the Sociological POV, as we explore the good, the bad, and the world around us.