Joseph J. Allen, a Minnesota-based photographer and returning guest, shares insights from his artistic journey and community work in this engaging conversation. He discusses his evolution from photojournalism to a more artistic approach, emphasizing the importance of subjective storytelling in photography. As the director of the Gizhiigin Arts program, Joseph highlights the significance of collaboration within Indigenous communities and the impact of community-driven initiatives like the Mahnomen Arts Initiative. Throughout the episode, he reflects on the challenges artists face, including funding and audience engagement, while also celebrating the role of organizations like Art of the World in supporting artists. Joseph's commitment to giving back to his community and fostering connections among artists is evident as he outlines his future endeavors, including launching a capital campaign for an arts organization in Mahnomen.

Joseph J. Allen's return to Five Plain Questions brings a wealth of experience and insight as he reflects on his life as a photographer and community advocate. Joe Williams, the host, guides the discussion through Allen's rich history, exploring his roots in South Dakota and the diverse landscapes of his life, which have informed his artistic practice. Allen's journey from a photojournalist to a conceptual artist illustrates the transformative power of art, particularly in how it can express complex Indigenous identities and histories. He explains his ongoing project, 'After Contact', in which he examines significant locations central to Indigenous heritage, capturing their essence through layered photographic techniques that challenge viewers to reconsider their understanding of these sites.

The conversation also highlights the financial realities of being an artist today, particularly for Indigenous creators. Allen candidly discusses the challenges of maintaining artistic integrity while navigating commercial expectations. He reflects on the historical context of Indigenous art and the ongoing struggle to ensure that contemporary works are understood and respected for their cultural significance. What emerges is a nuanced discussion about authenticity, representation, and the responsibility artists have towards their communities. Allen's commitment to nurturing emerging artists through initiatives like the Gizhiigin Arts program showcases his dedication not just to his craft, but to fostering a thriving artistic ecosystem rooted in Indigenous values and community support.

As the episode draws to a close, Allen shares his vision for the future of art in his community, particularly through the Mahnomen Arts Initiative, which aims to blend artistic expression with economic development. His perspective on collaboration emphasizes the importance of building relationships within the arts community, advocating for a model that prioritizes shared success over individual accolades. Listeners are left with a profound appreciation for the role of art in cultural resilience and the potential for creative spaces to serve as catalysts for social change. This episode is a testament to the resilience of Indigenous artists and the vital narratives they continue to shape today.

Takeaways:

Joe Allen emphasizes the importance of community engagement and collaborative work in the arts.

His photography evolved from documentary styles to more subjective and conceptual approaches over time.

The After Contact series aims to recontextualize Indigenous spaces and experiences through photography.

Allen's experiences highlight the challenges of balancing artistic integrity with market demands.

He discusses the significance of sharing knowledge and fostering reciprocity in artistic communities.

The future of his work includes launching the Mahnomen Arts Initiative and a capital campaign.

Links referenced in this episode:

artoftherural.org

elevenwarriorarts.com

Companies mentioned in this episode:

Art of the Rural

McKnight Foundation

Shakopee Mdewakanton Community Archives

• Frederick R. Weisman Art Museum

Hello and welcome again to another episode of Five Plain Questions, a podcast that proposes five questions to Indigenous artists, creators, musicians, writers, movers and shakers and culture bears people in community doing great things for their communities. I'm Joe Williams, your host for this conversation.

My goal is to showcase these amazing people in our Indigenous communities from around the region and country. We return with our multi part series in conjunction with Art of the World, an arts nonprofit based out of Rochester, Minnesota.

We're so excited to be promoting their work as they engage with community with art and intention.

I'm excited to bring you the conversation I'm having with artists and creatives that they've been working with, some of whom are former guests of this program. Our next episode in the miniseries is a returning guest from season one, Joseph.

J. Allen, as we introduced him to.

He's a Minnesota based photographer born in South Dakota, with his career spanning throughout the region, the Twin Cities, Minnesota and the White Earth Nation in North Minnesota. Joseph J. Allen lives on the White Earth Ojibwe Reservation in Northern Minnesota.

His photographs are in collections of the Frederick R. Weisman Art Museum, the Minnesota Historical Society, and the Shakopee Mdewakanton Community Archives.

So with that said, let's jump into this conversation with my friend, photographer Joseph J. Allen.

Joel Allen, welcome back to Five Plane Questions. How. How are you doing?

Hey, I'm doing all right on this. Yeah. I don't know if I want to mention the post election Day here, but yeah, I'm doing okay. Power through. Yeah, right on.

For, for the listener, we're recording this on the, the day after the national elections. And so I think given whatever your, your political standing is, I think all in all it's a momentous day for, for everyone.

So where we're managing through.

And one of the things that we started doing this season was revisiting old friends and guests of the podcast. And I wanted to, to connect with you and to I guess get caught up on where you are today, what's.

What's happening, because you have a lot going on and yeah, I just wanted to reconnect. So for, for the newer listeners, would you be able to introduce yourself and tell a little bit about your background?

I'm enrolled with the Shichangu Lakoto Oyate and descendant of the Mississippi Band and Shinabe Ojibwe. And I currently live here in the White Earth Nation in the Sugarbush Township.

You know, I live on 10 acres of land rurally and I work for the wider tribe as an artist.

So I've been a photographer for over 30 years and right now trying to maintain my practice, but also work, you know, with a day job, you know, and so I work for the wider Tribes Economic Development Division and I direct the Gijin Arts incubator here in Manoa, Minnesota. Gajigen's been around for about seven years, and I think I just started the last time we were on.

I think I've been here six years now, five years, so. And then. So through the incubator, I work with artists. A lot of artists have been on your program.

Ken Esty, Penny Kaga Gaby, I think I kept to name a few, but so I always call them, my incubates went through the incubator system here. So that's trying to use my skill as an artist, as a photographer to help other artists.

And so my background, you know, I came from, you know, I lived in South Dakota, I lived in Paiute Reservation in Nevada. I lived on the Navajo Nation and in the Sioux City Indian community. So I lived around. This is all before I turned 21. And so.

And I ended up in Minneapolis. And that's where I learned, you know, I had been dabbling in photography before that. My uncle was in the Navy and he had a.

A camera that he gave or after he passed away, I got it and he used to make it sit through slideshows and, you know, he was on the USS Enterprise nuclear, and so he lived in Las Vegas. So that's where I kind of got introduced to photography was through him. He'd make a sit through slideshows of the aircraft carry.

I thought he'd take these pictures, but he was buying them from the px, I guess, you know, the slides. But so I got his camera. I learned how to use it.

But then it wasn't until I got to Minneapolis and started going to college, community college, that I got into photography as a career. And so I kind of dropped out of college and started working at the Circle newspaper as a photojournalist.

The. I became pretty familiar with your work after I started at the Plains Art Museum. And you were a part of a. An exhibition through Art of the World.

And I'm.

Yeah. High visibility.

Yes.

Yeah. You know, and, and so I was one of the artists asked.

I had been kind of put together before that and I was one of the local artists in the region asked to contribute. And so. So yeah, my work in that show is big, the land based stuff.

You know, I do a lot of, you know, I started out in photojournalism, but I kind of moved away from that into more exhibition type, you know, gallery working on a series. And that one I call After Contact.

You know, it's kind of a play on words or that the contact sheet, when you used to do black and white photography, you'd shoot a roll of film and you know, go in the dark room and you put in the sleeves and you do a contact sheet to see what your thumbnails look like, you know, and see what you would print later.

But I kind of did this, this series and it's still ongoing where I go and visit, you know, places like my ancestors, you know, like Lakota Dakota and shabby places and kind of re. Recontextualize it using film and cameras.

And it's kind of after contact, what happened after first contact, you know, so that's, that's the work that was in that show.

How. How have your experiences and perspectives in story chain, in storytelling, how has that evolved over the course of your career?

Well, I think photography is, you know, it's usually, you know, when I first started out, I was doing that kind of documentary photojournalist. I did a lot of powwow photography too. That's kind of where I started.

My mom was a powwow vendor as an artist and I would drive her around and take photos and. But you know, it became that, you know, where, you know, it's seen as objective, you know.

And to me, photography is always subjective, you know, it's always my eye, my framing, you know, what I choose.

So, you know, I get kind of pigeonholed you know, as a Native photographer in the 90s, you know, it's like that I had the authentic eye, you know, that, you know, you know, I was more insider and so that my. Was more authentic. But, you know, I'm just one viewpoint, you know.

Yeah, maybe I'm native and I'm shooting the native community, but, you know, I wanted to try to break that frame or break that, you know, pigeonhole. And so, you know, the Lamb, the After Contact Sheet series kind of broke that visual. You know, it's not.

It jars the viewer, you know, it doesn't make this. Oh, I know where that is. You know, it's like, it's very. The images are multi, you know, exposure and overlapping. And so it's.

It's disorienting to the viewer. And that's kind of what I wanted people to feel.

Not that this is the actual place, but it's like, how does this feel from a Dakota perspective or from Lakota perspective? So, you know, this place called Coldwater Springs, you know, or, you know, Bateaute, you know, these places that are part of Dakota, you know, sites.

And so. So, yeah, you know, trying to break that framework of move away from documentary and photojournalism into the art realm, you know, and so.

And that kind of freed me up to, you know, do whatever. Do whatever I want, you know, not have to get that shot and get it in the publication and. And so.

And that, you know, I used to do wedding photography, too, and that's kind of. I just did my sister's wedding, but, you know.

But, you know, that pressure of, you know, getting that shot, you know, and, like, that kind of work, you know, so photography, that you have to play that, you know, and I've tried to move away from that, you know, and so I get roped back in with my sister's wedding.

But family's family, right?

Yeah.

Is there a specific milestone that has influenced certain moments of growth in your career? Is there anything like an event or something that stands out to you?

Well, I think, you know, early on, the first grant I ever applied for I got was a McKnight Photography Fellowship. So that kind of, you know, moved it beyond just. I'm just doing this as a hobby, you know, or, you know, like, just tried it out.

And so I was the first grant I ever applied for. I remember typing it on a Apple IIC, like a.1 of the really old, earliest apples in 19.

And then, and then when I started, when I left, I worked at the Circle newspaper for a long time in Minneapolis. I was published out of the Minneapolis American Indian Center.

I was editor for about eight years there, you know, took over, started as a freelance photographer and then took over. And then when I left there, that's when I moved into the art realm, became more of an artist and so, and then moved up north here.

So when, when you were a journalist, when you're photographing stories and whatnot, did you feel over time that your technique, the way you were framing photos was evolving in a storytelling technique, so to speak?

Yeah, you know, early on, you know, I began as a, I was a powwow photographer.

And so, you know, I was using long lenses and you know, and you know, capturing moments with that, that compression, I don't know, you know, it's technical term, but it makes the background blurry, you know, the bouquet. I never say these words right, but.

And so, but when I moved in journalism, I had to learn more about wide angle, you know, getting close to things, getting more perspective, you know.

And so that was more wide angle stuff. Just hanging out with people, you know, that I knew in their daily life and capturing moments from that.

So kind of being the fly on a wall kind of journalists and photojournalism documentary. So. Yeah, I think, I don't know if I got that question right, but that's great.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's interesting how the, the experiences really shape the, the way we, we change our approaches to how, how has the, the reaction or the feedback been with the audience that has, has viewed your work?

And I, I asked as kind of a two part question because, you know, we have the, the native audience from our own communities who might have a deeper insight maybe or be able to relate to the images you create as opposed to the non native audience. And can you, can you share some thoughts on, on their reactions and your interactions with them?

And so, and that was kind of like, okay, the pretty powwow pictures and you know, and the nice landscapes and all that. But, you know, some of this other work, it's hard for people to comprehend. And so it's not, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't really.

It's not going to sell, you know, it's more, you know, it's more of a document, historical document from my perspective. So that has changed, you know, so I still do some of the art fair things.

And so there's one image that was included in the, in the Minneapolis Institute of Arts photography show. I can't remember the exact name in our hands, that was last November.

And the image that, my image that was included was one that I sold on the street in Minneapolis at an art fair.

And so one of the women that worked there was helping and I, you know, because I wasn't, you know, in all I didn't get selected by the, the curation team. She brought that print in and said, you got to have Joe in this show, you know.

And so that's how I got into this major exhibit at the Minneapolis Institute of Art. MIA and so, but that image was a teepee on the front lawn. And so that one has sold.

And you know, I know that's like my, my mom used to, as a power vendor, you know, it's like she had her bread and butter kind of, you know, the gas money home, you know, sales and that. So I know I can always sell a teepee print, you know, so, so that, you know, so that kind of interaction.

But the newer stuff, I think it made it, I think it opens the eyes for a lot of non native people in terms of like the history of the land, you know, and not just, you know, this whitewashed version of history, you know.

And so I think that that has helped a lot of non native viewers to, you know, try to figure out what this means, you know, what is, what does it mean for, you know, what is that place down and you know, the concentration camp, you know, where, you know, I have a picture of that, you know, and so, you know, if you don't know that history, you know, and I don't tell them that history, you know, I just.

Here's an image of, you know, the dote, you know, and, and so, so I think that that's, you know, trying to, you know, I think that's what most Native artists struggle with is like, who's your audience? And you know, there's more non natives than there are natives.

And so especially if, you know, you're trying to make money as an artist, your work is going to be, you know, it has to be paddle palatable, I guess you want to say to the non Native, you know, if you're going to make money, you know.

So, you know, and there's a lot of, you know, I go down the South, I used to live in the Southwest, you know, there's a lot more knowledge of Native art down there, I think, than up here in the Midwest, you know, where I am in Northern Minnesota.

And so, and I'm not a traditional, you know, what considered I always use my air quotes here, but a Native artist, you know, I'm, you know, photography is kind of this weird art, I think. I always think, you know, it's like, you know, I always, it's kind of married my scientific, technical side with the artistic side, you know.

So, you know, I, before I was a photographer, I was in electronics. You know, I was. Worked for subcontractors, subcontractors down in, you know, Phoenix area for intel and you know, all the chip makers down there.

And so. But I moved up and started into Minneapolis. When I moved up here, got into the art side. So.

This, this kind of walks into the, the next question I was gonna ask it was if there was a sort of a particular challenging moment in your, your artistic journey and how were you able to overcome it.

A lot of times, of course, like you're talking about, it's the, the audience and the demands of, of what patrons are asking for or seeking as opposed to what your artistic version is.

Well, I think, you know, you know, I started early.

You know, I think the main problem in most artists is money, you know, and so, and so I was, I was working a gig with Allies Media Arts and we were owned by Mona Smith. I don't know if you've interviewed her, but she's Dakota artist down in the Cities at Multimedia.

And anyway, I was working with her and we are on our contracts with Shakopee Tribe, and that's where I learned about Dakota sites. Because we would go out and I would just photo document those sites, whatever they are today how they look today.

And so, you know, and I wanted to do like these kind of big landscapes, but I couldn't afford, I mean, I was, I don't know if you know, Chris Faust, but there's other photographers, they have these panoramic cameras and they cost like three to $4,000, you know, and so I couldn't afford that. You know, single dad. I mean, I was not single.

We were, I was single stay at home dad at the time, you know, I was raising two daughters and you know, it was easier for me to work, I mean, stay at home and raise the girls and, you know, and be. Become an artist, you know. So I couldn't afford a $3,000 camera, you know, so I bought a $20 Holga with medium format film.

And that's where I started doing these panoramics using that camera.

And so I was able to create and it really affected my work because I learned how to stitch these images together without having to rely on this $4,000 gear. It's like, here's a $20 toy camera that gives me medium format film and so I can make larger prints. And so I was still using film. So, so that's film.

Moving from film to digital was kind of hard for me, you know, because I couldn't afford the digital gear.

So the, the work that you've been doing in community and this is how, how I really became familiar with, with you in person. You were a, a board member at the Plains Art Museum for a number of years. And when I came on board, you.

Were a board member.

Then how has, how has your community work shaped your interaction with artists and community members over the last several years?

So, so that's kind of where it started. And also, you know, I'm, I'm a son of a preacher. My father was an Episcopal priest.

I don't like to mention that and mixed company a lot, but I mean, since there's this backlash against Christianity in the native community and you know, and he was, he went to Yale Divinity School from Pine Ridge and, but that's him. And my. My mom was artists. You know, she did beadwork, she did ceramics.

But that community work, you know, like, you always working for the community, you know, you're. You're, you know, you work for yourself too. You know, you do your own work.

But so that, that was kind of instilled in me when I was, you know, growing up, you know, seeing the dedication they had to the community. And so. And so when I got into this position at Gajigen, you know, I'm working for the community.

And so how do we, you know, create an economic system here that helps artists? And so working with them and creating community, how to build a community. And so I think that's, you know, as an artist, you know, trying to do that.

I was like, I'm lucky, you know, and, you know, and, you know, partly because I'm in a tribal system that. Well, we all know, kind of tribal, you know, politics, you know, you know, I don't know how many administrations I've been through.

And my supervisor is the director of economic development. And that's been kind of a revolving door. And so I always say I'm unsupervised, so, you know, so I can do whatever I want.

But I've been figuring out a lot of stuff, you know, so, like, because I have the time to, you know, experiment and, you know, innovate and then build from that. And so the community work right now.

So right now we've helped to launch, or I've helped to launch a new arts organization here in Manoomin in the wider nation called Manoomin Arts Initiative. And so that's from my work working with the city of Manoomin, the county, the tribe, and local artists. And so we just formed a nonprofit.

We're looking to buy a building here in the town of Manoomin. Wide Earth is kind of a open res. I mean, I think Cisoden is probably similar.

You know, we're kind of close by where, you know, you look at the map and it has a big square that's a wider nation, but, you know, the tribe only owns about 10% of the land.

And so, you know, one of the good things about our election here is locally our city council, the mayor is native, the whole school board now is native, and the city council, you know, and these are independent municipal, county, you know, so it's not tribally run, but, you know, they're. They're. You know, they're. And there's. We have native people on the county commissioners now. Too.

So it's like, so that's good on the local level here, so. And so that's the community that I work in. And so it's like mixed. We're 50, 50, 50 native, 50 white. The school system, though, is in the 90% and so.

So the community work here is just trying to build, use art and creativity and creative place making basically to try to help revitalize this town of Manoomin, which is the largest on the reservation here, but overall the wider nation, you know, and so, but so that, you know, if I had tried to build my own organization, my own little silo, I don't think I would have been as effective as I have because I don't have any staff, I don't have much.

I mean, the tribe's there, but so I've been partnering with the city and the county and so, and we've been getting a lot of things done and now we have this organization and we're, we're going to buy a building. We're trying to buy. So we got money raised for that already. So.

So collaboration is definitely a key to.

Yeah, yeah.

Especially in rural communities, you know, it's like, you know, we don't have the bodies, you know, you know, we got some good people, but they're all doing the same thing, you know, like, they're on this, they're, they're volunteer firefighters, you know, they're on the city council, they school board.

You know what, you know, it's like you see the same people on everything, you know, and so, but, and, and we have to work with everybody, you know, we work with both sides. You know, it's not just one little, you know, enclave. It's, you know, we're in rural Minnesota here.

We're all USA, where 70% of the people voted for Trump, you know, so, you know, and I know them, I work with them all the time, you know, and it's, you know, so it's different from the, you know, the city perspective of rural. I think that that's kind of the big thing. And, you know, I grew up both, you know, I lived. Born rural, lived in rural, but lived in cities too.

So I think that's. But the community work has been really, it's, it takes a lot. And I think that's something. We're kind of conditioned to be individualistic.

You know, like, as an artist, you know, we have to do everything ourselves. And, and, you know, you're not used to working for the community. You know, it's, you're supposed to Community where is.

Oh, I did a class, you know, or I did, you know, or donated a piece of artwork to you. This, you know, that kind of. But. And it's hard to, you know, to make a living this way, you know, so I just feel lucky to be able to do this.

So thank you. McKnight foundation, they're one of my big funders, you know, so.

And so if it wasn't for their steady funding, you know, I wouldn't be able to, to figure this out. And so great organization. I don't know if I can.

Oh, absolutely.

I think so many of the guests that have been on this podcast, but just in, in the community in general, they've, they've, they've really have stepped up and provided a lot of funding opportunities for so many artists.

Yeah. And right now we're trying, you know, I'm trying to connect on a more national scale too.

And so we're part of, well, we, you know, part of Art of the Rural that came about during COVID You know, they were moving the It's Kentucky Rural Urban Exchange and they created a model we. So I was on the steering community to create this leadership program that was connecting urban and rural people.

And then I hosted, we hosted a community Up Here event up here in Manoomin and the White Earth Nation and Itasca Biological. So the whole cohort came up here.

And so that's where I met Matthew Fluharty at Art of the World and we worked together and I helped to connect local artists to this. And so, and so that. And now I'm part of the. We're part of as the initiative, the Monoman Arts Initiative, the new nonprofit that we formed.

We're a collab or the organizing partner in the Midway Coalition, which is a group of artist led spaces throughout the Midwest. And so it's kind of spearheaded by the Public Media Institute in Chicago and we're going down in November to Summit in Kansas City a week long.

And so we organizing that and so, so connecting with other. They're not all. There's some native organizations like Racing Magpie out of Peter.

Peter Strong.

Yeah, Peter Strong out of Rapid City. But most of them are just a lot of rural, but a lot of urban Chicago, St.

Louis, Cincinnati, but they're all artist run spaces, you know, like, kind of like what I'm doing here in Manoomin. But.

And so just connecting to that larger national network of artist led spaces to help bring that stuff, bring that knowledge back to the community and share. I think that's another Thing about, you know, we're, we're. We're taught to knowledge hoard, you know.

You know, like we, you know, you don't give away your secrets. You don't, you know, it's like copyright, you know, and, you know, and I, I've always come from a community, you know, from my family.

That sharing, it was always sharing. And so.

I appreciate that. Yeah. Growing up here on the Rez. The. Yeah.

That knowledge hoarding, you know, there's some folks who know things that, that to them, I suppose they feel that that's their currency, which is a really, a terrible way to sort of treat information. And it's always a shame when young people, myself included, would go out and try to see information.

Just we couldn't have access to it, you know, because of this name or, you know, for. For whatever reason, you know.

So I think, yeah, you know, it, it leads to, you know, that kind of cult of personality stuff that, you know, is hard to, you know, so many, you know, all of us lost, you know, through colonization, our ancestors, that connection to the past.

I mean, there's some people that are connected, but most of us, you know, there's been a break there and, you know, our worldview has changed from that original thought, you know, the, you know, pre contact. You know, I hate to do this kind of puritanical kind of line, but there's a difference of thought back then than there is today.

And so I think that's the thing. That's a thing that I was cautioned about is like, you can reject all this other stuff, but it's been instilled in us.

You know, it's like we were, you know, the boarding schools, you know, these, these values of Christianity, you know, even if we don't go to church or whatever, it's still kind of imprinted on us, you know, and we, if we don't have anything else to go by, we're going to go by those values, you know, so, so it's. So how do we, you know. Yeah, my, My daughter just said this meme about, you know, a hard pill to swallow.

You know, it's like, you know, you just can't go to ceremonies. You got to do real work of healing, you know. And so, you know, if you just.

All you want to do is learn all this stuff, but you don't really do for anything for your community if you're just taking and learning and, you know, but not giving back and, you know, that's extractive. Yeah. So not. Not. I just, I can't Use that term, but it's not regenerative, you know, reciprocity.

So I just had a conversation with Xavier Tavera about that, you know, this, this fear of going into a space and documenting the lives of people.

And you know, because I mean, so often this was the case for, you know, the previous generations who would create artwork and non natives would come in and they would take their artwork back to museums or back to institutions and not give credit.

And so that's why so many, you know, objects, quote, unquote, or artifacts, again in quotes, don't have names associated with the people that created those things. And oftentimes those objects that were created, the, the person who purchased it, they knew who they were.

But when they passed away and those, those items were handed over to museums or whatnot, that, that information didn't feel important enough to document, you know, who created that.

Yeah, yeah, they just, they might have a try, but most of the time this is Indian, you know, and so. Yeah, and I think I was going to go somewhere with that, but.

Sorry, I. No, but reciprocity going. Yeah. Not returning.

Oh yeah. In terms of like, I was going to go back to my experience as a photographer shooting powwows. I just remember, you know, the grand entry.

All of a sudden this herd of white photographers would come and they'd all have these, the big long lenses, you know, the ten thousand dollar lenses.

Here I am with my, you know, mail order camera, you know, and, and they would just come for the grand entry and then they were gone, you know, and no one ever saw them again. You know, it's like, and for me it was hard.

You know, this is before social media, so it's like I was always trying to get prints back to people, but you know, it's. It's hard, you know, it's like, you know, I can't afford to make all these prints travel back to all the powwows. You know, it's like.

Or get their addresses, you know, it's like. So, you know, I kind of sat on it for a long time. So, you know, I'm, I'm trying to go through that stuff now and I've been kind of.

And so I don't know if, you know, Ivy Vino, she's like, hey, Becky, is that you? Know, that's me. Yeah.

So it's like, so try to give that back to the community because, you know, I have this archive, you know, and it's hard to, to, you know, get it out there, you know, and I just don't want to give it away to a museum right now. But, you know, it's like I, you know, I shot film and black and white slide film a lot.

And so what a gift to them, though, you know, to. To have something from 30 years ago all of a sudden.

Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, and as people are gone, you know.

And it was such a gift to be able to see all, you know, the, the elders or friends who have since passed, you know, in these videos, you know, and it meant that, you know, I, I and others had. That we all attended and just to be able.

Not realizing it was recorded and to see that, you know, that there are memories of that, that tangible memories, objects that exist from that time.

Cool.

Yeah. So as. As an artist, as. As someone who's just sort of working their way through life and their career, what. What.

What is a good, solid habit that you've developed for yourself to, to really keep you moving forward in your practice? And is there a bad habit that you had to break or step away from?

I think the main. I. I don't know if it's a good or bad. It's probably both, you know, for.

For is like, never being satisfied, you know, and that, you know, so that's good and bad, I think. And so, you know, it's not that you want perfection all the time, but it's like, you know, you can be. Do better, you know, it's like.

And I think that's what I always say about art. It's like, it's about a skill, you know, so you have to develop it. And so you just keep going and going.

And I see a lot of young artists don't push themselves as much. You know, they put. They. They really know them. Social media and all that kind of stuff. But skill wise, okay.

I mean, especially in photography, you know, like, I see a lot of photographers and I work with a lot of them that have never printed, made a print before, you know, and then because they're not doing exhibits, they're just posting things on Facebook, you know, and so. And it's like there's, you know, it's a limit to what you can do there, you know, so. But yeah, I think that's something that. That skill set. So.

And I guess the main thing is I. Yeah. And. But also not, you know, that. That. That's that catch 22 of never satisfied then.

But also realizing that have other people look at your work because, you know, you, You're. You're always your own worst critic. But you know, it's. Some of your work might actually be good that you don't really see, but someone.

Other people will. So. And things that you don't like some other people like. So it's like you never know. So, um. So that's always like. And yeah.

And obviously photographers, you gotta learn how to print because it's. That's the only way it's gonna, you know, last a little bit beyond you.

You know, it's like your Facebook account will be there, but what happens after that? You know, it's like. And so that's what I'm kind of trying to figure out is I got these images, like, what do we do with them?

You know, I mean, it's not like a painting where it goes and it's out there, you know, nas to survive, but a digital negative. What, you know, how's that survive?

You know, So I mean, a digital file, you know, it's like it's going to be obsolete or get lost somewhere in a cloud, you know, so prints are things that people can put in a safe, you know, so they'll be around for a couple hundred years, you know, so.

Yeah. Yeah. You had mentioned earlier about Art of the World and the exchange that. That you were a part of. Would.

Would you be able to expand a little bit on. On what that experience was like for you working with. With Matthew and had.

Has that experience that shaped your understanding of community dynamics maybe a little differently than before?

Yeah, I think it was one of the first time that I've come across the term distributed leadership and, and, and so.

And coming together and working with other people doing similar stuff, but coming together and putting something together that isn't just your organization. And I think that's something that out of the world helped me to understand.

You know, working with them with the Minnesota Rocks, the rural urban exchange, you know, learning how, you know, being a steering committee, you know, you know, leading a certain things and, and just learning that structure of how to work together. When you're not all staff people, you know, when it's not your staff, you know, there's one.

There's one person in charge and everything you Know, all the underlings do the work, you know, but I think that was really one of the best things about working with Art of the World through the min rucks was learning how to, to navigate that and how to, you know, how my, what my skill set is in terms of what I can do in that realm and not, you know, feel bad because I can't do this or can't do that, but I can do that, you know, I learned how to, you know, so. And that's kind of where I'm at with the Midway Coalition now.

You know, it's like, so now I know how well how this is going to go, you know, and so what I can offer and what I can do. And so it's a different way of working, you know.

You know, and it's, you know, it's, you know, I guess I haven't really liked working in organizations, you know, I, you know, I look at my career, I, the circle I kind of took over and then I launched it as an independent non profit. But it's how. I was in charge of that one too.

But I've never really worked for a major organization and so I've always been independent or else working for a small non profit, you know, or a sole proprietor, you know, some, you know, so I like. Yeah, so I think that's, that's something that I got a loss of my thought there, but.

Oh no, it's. Yeah, it's just. Yeah. About the what sort of like insights. Yeah. That you've, you've gained from that experience. Yeah.

Yeah. And so now, so this, this year they offered me a fellowship, Spillway Fellowship.

And so, and that's where, you know, I did an exhibit down in the Winona. Winona County Historical Society in Winona. And, and that was this past June or. No, when was I. This past summer.

And there's more of a retrospect of a work.

And so that's kind of where this, during this fellowship I've kind of been going back into the archives and looking at things and figuring out what am I going to do with this stuff. And so.

Well, with that said, what's, what's on the horizon for you? What do you have coming up? What's. What's going on?

Well, another thing that I've started. So I started a print club, the Animiki Print Club.

So I taught myself how to do well, actually I went to a workshop with John Hitchcock at Plains Art Museum, created, created the center for Creativity. And I learned how to do screen printing with oh, what was her name. She was his assistant. She worked there.

Amanda Heidt.

Yeah, Amanda. Yeah. And so I learned how to burn a screen. And so, you know, and so I came back and I started doing, you know, silk screening.

So I've been doing silk screening now for about four or five years. I do T shirts, I just gotta run order from the indigenous nations poets, you know. And so.

But also I, through Gajigen we purchased a large format printer so I can offer artists, you know, canvas prints or large format prints and then help, you know. And then we, we do pop up markets throughout. We just did the Fargo Mohard studio crawl. We popped up at the Indigenous Association.

Oh yes.

Yep. Yeah. And so, so that's kind of where I want to go. You know, I want to like get out of, I mean, still kind of community work because.

But the problem with, not the problem, but the issue I have with Gajigen is like, you know, I'm part of a tribe and a government and you know, it's kind of limiting in terms of like, okay, they only. And, and also it's kind of viewed as a social service kind of thing. And so I have to keep getting grand money.

And so I'm trying to move towards this where, you know, Animiki Print club.

I can still take pictures of your, your work, but I'm going to charge you for it, you know, and then I can help you make prints or help you, you know.

And so, so just trying to get to that where I'm, I'm slowly trying to fade out of this, the nonprofit industrial complex and, and move into like just regular business, you know, and, but still doing that kind of social inter, you know, socially minded, community minded, you know, you know, if I was going to open a business, I wouldn't choose Manoomin.

So, you know, but you know, but you know, this is where I am and this is, you know, and I think there's a way that I can at least pay the rent and you know, help people out and pay my bills, you know. And so without. And you know, as much as I love the foundations that have helped me, you know, it's like I get tired of writing grants every year.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, if, if you were to give the, the elevator pitch to our listeners who might be able to reach out to you and maybe collaborate with your, assist you with that, what, what would you say to them?

Well, right now we're looking at. So we're, we will probably be launching a capital campaign once we find a building. So we have some involved. So look for the Manoomin Arts Initiative.

So Manoomin is the Ojibwe word for wild rice. And so we are in Manoomin county, the city of Manoomin, which is the colonized way of saying Manoomin.

And so, so yeah, you can look for us.org and so, and we'll be launching a capital campaign to help pay off whatever building because, you know, we got some money now, but, you know, every building you get is going to be some improvements and need something. And so, so that, yeah, that's the way to get involved. And then, you know, we, so we're more community, local base.

It's so it's like, that's one of the things that we wanted is like everything we do is based here in White Earth, you know, the Whiters nation. And not that we don't we help people get out there, but we're trying to build up our community here. So. So that's.

I don't know if that's a 30 minute elevator pitch, but, you know, I'm working on it because we, we got to get that capital campaign going. And so that, you know, and that's the thing about this community where he's like, we don't have to do it all.

I don't have to do it all myself or my organization. You know, it's like we can work collaboratively.

And I think that's, that's a big thing that I've learned in the last four or five years, working collaboratively.

Well, I'll put links in the show notes so the listener can reach out to you if they feel inclined and keep, keep me updated. I'd like to be able to push this out for, for our audience.

Yeah, thanks.

Well, Joe, this was, this was great. Thank you for coming back to the podcast and spending a little time. Time with myself and the listener.

Thanks. Thanks for listening. Yeah, it's good to catch up with you too. Good to see you.

And that does it for this episode of Five Plain Questions. I want to thank Joe again for his time and sharing his story with us and for returning to the podcast and giving us an update.

It was, it was definitely a treat.

To be able to sit down with him again and.

Yeah, just to see where he is and to hear about his experience with Art of the rural.

I think it's really important that organizations like Art of the World are teaming up with artists and leaders like Joe to be able to share their knowledge with the community and to be able to help those. So it's great to hear his story and what's going on with him. So, Joe, thank you so much for coming back and having a conversation with us.

Five Plain Questions is made possible with the support of Art of the World.

Art of the World is a collaborative organization working to resource artists and culture bearers across the country, building relationships and changing narratives.

To learn more about the work, visit.

Artoftherural.Org I also want to thank the Indigenous association for letting us use their studios in downtown Fargo. It's a wonderful facility. They were gracious enough to open up the space to me as I work on these and future episodes for season six.

If you need a recording space, please contact the Indigenous association in Fargo, North Dakota. I also want to thank you for joining us and spending your time listening to what I feel is a very important story and perspective from our community.

Thank you for being here for season five and I look forward to us connecting again soon. With that said, of course, that's right. We have come to the end of season five.

Despite, despite everything that was happening in.

The background, it was very important to have that. And so thank you for joining us and sticking it through with us as we started late and had a short season.

What a list of guests that we've had, some of whom I've wanted since the beginning and I am beyond grateful that we've had them and of course all of them. These were incredible stories.

So for our guests that have joined us, thank you and of course for you listening, thank you for being with us along the way. I'm Joe Williams.

You can find me on cross social media, on Instagram, on X, at the five Plane Question pages on those sites that may change depending on the environment. Moving forward, I want to see what the integrity is on some of these social media websites and we may be rethinking on how we engage with them.

You will always be able to find us on the official five plain questions website which is 11warriorarts.com there you can find this episode, past episodes of the podcast. Also, if you have a suggestion for someone for me to interview or you want to support the podcast, please check out that website and message me.

I would really like to hear from you. Well, thank you for joining us for this season and I look forward to us connecting again in March of this year. We will be back. So you take care and.

And we will see you next season. This has been an eleven Warrior Arts production.