Introduction Voiceover:
00:00:01
You are listening to Season Five of
Introduction Voiceover:
00:00:03
Future Ecologies.
Mendel Skulski:
00:00:06
Okay.
Adam Huggins:
00:00:08
Hey, everyone. This is Adam,
Mendel Skulski:
00:00:10
This is Mendel. And you're listening to the
Mendel Skulski:
00:00:14
final part of our trilogy on Rangelands. So if you're only
Mendel Skulski:
00:00:18
just joining us, you may want to go back to parts one and two,
Mendel Skulski:
00:00:21
and chew on those for a bit.
Adam Huggins:
00:00:23
Yeah, there's lots to ruminate about. Okay, so
Adam Huggins:
00:00:28
Mendel, you know that classic folk song that's been running
Adam Huggins:
00:00:32
through these episodes?
Mendel Skulski:
00:00:33
Yeah. [Singing] Oh, give me home, where the
Mendel Skulski:
00:00:37
buffalo roam.
Adam Huggins:
00:00:39
[Singing] Where the deer and the antelope play.
Adam Huggins:
00:00:45
We all know this song... I think. It's kind of the, I don't
Adam Huggins:
00:00:50
know, unofficial anthem of the mythologized American West.
Adam Huggins:
00:00:55
Would you agree?
Mendel Skulski:
00:00:55
I would.
Adam Huggins:
00:00:56
But have you noticed that there's kind of
Adam Huggins:
00:00:58
something peculiar about it?
Mendel Skulski:
00:01:00
Hmmm.... I think what you're getting at is the
Mendel Skulski:
00:01:02
fact that that song is completely absent any mention...
Mendel Skulski:
00:01:07
of cows,
Adam Huggins:
00:01:09
Not a single cow. In every version of the lyrics
Adam Huggins:
00:01:12
that I've reviewed, the singer waxes on about buffalo, and
Adam Huggins:
00:01:16
deer, and antelope and also the sky, and the streams, the stars
Adam Huggins:
00:01:22
and the wildflowers. Virtually everything under the sun, except
Adam Huggins:
00:01:26
—
Mendel Skulski:
00:01:27
Except cows. The cowboy anthem has no cows!
Adam Huggins:
00:01:31
Nope. And I find this kind of fascinating. I
Adam Huggins:
00:01:35
know, there are lots of folks who just love livestock, and
Adam Huggins:
00:01:38
they are a quintessential part of the American West. But this
Adam Huggins:
00:01:42
song kind of highlights, maybe accidentally, that the character
Adam Huggins:
00:01:48
of this place — what we love the most about it — goes way beyond
Adam Huggins:
00:01:52
that.
Mendel Skulski:
00:01:52
Yeah.
Adam Huggins:
00:01:53
And maybe, just maybe, we don't need cows to
Adam Huggins:
00:01:57
have healthy, biodiverse rangelands. In fact, some would
Adam Huggins:
00:02:01
argue cows are the central reason that we don't often have
Adam Huggins:
00:02:06
healthy, biodiverse rangelands. Their arguments are also backed
Adam Huggins:
00:02:11
up by a mountain of scientific evidence, and their vision is
Adam Huggins:
00:02:14
nothing short of the rewilding of the West.
Adam Huggins:
00:02:18
So let's get into it.
Adam Huggins:
00:02:20
From Future Ecologies, this is Home on the Rangelands, part
Adam Huggins:
00:02:24
three — Where the Deer and the Antelope Play.
Introduction Voiceover:
00:02:32
Broadcasting from the unceded, shared and
Introduction Voiceover:
00:02:35
asserted territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and
Introduction Voiceover:
00:02:39
Tsleil-Waututh, this is Future Ecologies – exploring the shape
Introduction Voiceover:
00:02:45
of our world through ecology, design, and sound.
Adam Huggins:
00:03:39
Okay, so for starters, we're going to zoom
Adam Huggins:
00:03:42
out from California for a minute and take a look at the rest of
Adam Huggins:
00:03:46
the West.
Mendel Skulski:
00:03:46
Finally!
Adam Huggins:
00:03:47
And to do that, we're going to talk with Bob
Adam Huggins:
00:03:49
Beschta.
Bob Beschta:
00:03:50
I'm Bob Beschta. I'm currently at Oregon State
Bob Beschta:
00:03:53
University where I've been for now 48 years.
Adam Huggins:
00:03:56
Bob is a forest hydrologist.
Bob Beschta:
00:03:59
And in that field, you very quickly find out that
Bob Beschta:
00:04:02
on Western landscapes, things that we do on the land such as
Bob Beschta:
00:04:06
harvesting trees, building roads, grazing livestock, all of
Bob Beschta:
00:04:09
these affect then this hydrologic cycle.
Adam Huggins:
00:04:12
And Bob is probably most famous for his
Adam Huggins:
00:04:14
work, alongside his colleague, William Ripple on the ecological
Adam Huggins:
00:04:18
consequences of the reintroduction of gray wolves to
Adam Huggins:
00:04:22
Yellowstone National Park.
Mendel Skulski:
00:04:23
Oh, okay. I haven't heard of Bob. But I've
Mendel Skulski:
00:04:27
definitely heard about the wolves in Yellowstone.
Adam Huggins:
00:04:30
Yeah. At this point, I would say the
Adam Huggins:
00:04:32
reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone is perhaps the
Adam Huggins:
00:04:35
highest profile success story in the world of conservation. And
Adam Huggins:
00:04:40
Bob has been there from the very beginning, documenting it.
Bob Beschta:
00:04:43
My first entry into northern Yellowstone was 1996.
Bob Beschta:
00:04:47
And I was on a field trip with some folks and we came in to
Bob Beschta:
00:04:50
Lamar Valley and I was just dumbstruck by the impacts I was
Bob Beschta:
00:04:54
seeing — the river and the banks were unraveling, I saw no
Bob Beschta:
00:04:57
willows, I saw very few cottonwoods growing. And when I
Bob Beschta:
00:05:01
went there, I didn't realize it was going to be a wolf story. I
Bob Beschta:
00:05:04
just knew there was a herbivory story going on. Lots of elk were
Bob Beschta:
00:05:07
eating lots of cottonwood. And I just wanted to document that.
Adam Huggins:
00:05:11
So this is textbook ecology at this point.
Adam Huggins:
00:05:15
But long story short, the extirpation of wolves from
Adam Huggins:
00:05:18
Yellowstone had allowed elk and other herbivore populations to
Adam Huggins:
00:05:22
expand dramatically. And all of the woody vegetation along the
Adam Huggins:
00:05:26
rivers was being consumed, resulting in lots of erosion,
Adam Huggins:
00:05:30
and the loss of the riparian ecosystem. And of course, this
Adam Huggins:
00:05:33
also impacted other wildlife.
Mendel Skulski:
00:05:36
In other words, it's a classic trophic cascade,
Mendel Skulski:
00:05:40
just like we covered in our Kelp Worlds series.
Adam Huggins:
00:05:43
Yeah. And in this case, one of the keystone
Adam Huggins:
00:05:46
species, you might say the engineers of the whole
Adam Huggins:
00:05:48
ecosystem, were beavers. And the elk literally ate them out of
Adam Huggins:
00:05:53
house and home.
Bob Beschta:
00:05:54
Beaver essentially disappeared from Yellowstone.
Bob Beschta:
00:05:57
There were probably literally thousands of beaver in the
Bob Beschta:
00:06:00
northern range of Yellowstone when the park was established.
Bob Beschta:
00:06:03
And by the 1950s they were gone, because they had nothing to eat.
Adam Huggins:
00:06:08
And of course, without Beaver, there was
Adam Huggins:
00:06:11
nothing to prevent further degradation of the riparian
Adam Huggins:
00:06:14
areas. When wolves were reintroduced in the mid 1990s.
Adam Huggins:
00:06:18
This negative feedback loop slowly started to unwind.
Bob Beschta:
00:06:23
With wolves back now, we are seeing the
Bob Beschta:
00:06:26
beginnings of recovery of woody species such as aspen, such as
Bob Beschta:
00:06:30
cottonwood, willows, berry-producing shrubs, alder.
Adam Huggins:
00:06:33
With more predation came reduced
Adam Huggins:
00:06:35
herbivory, which allowed the riparian vegetation to recover,
Adam Huggins:
00:06:38
the beavers to return, and creeks to stabilize.
Bob Beschta:
00:06:42
It was very slow, it was very localized, but
Bob Beschta:
00:06:45
through time has become more widespread.
Mendel Skulski:
00:06:48
It's a classic success story. One I think most
Mendel Skulski:
00:06:53
people are familiar with. But what does it have to do with our
Mendel Skulski:
00:06:57
story, about rangelands?
Adam Huggins:
00:06:59
Well, I mean, at a basic level, it launched Bob on
Adam Huggins:
00:07:03
a career trajectory of studying the impacts of herbivory.
Bob Beschta:
00:07:06
Herbivory has such a powerful factor, influence on
Bob Beschta:
00:07:09
the landscape. The idea that, that an animal such as a deer or
Bob Beschta:
00:07:14
elk takes one bite at a time doesn't seem like it's a very
Bob Beschta:
00:07:18
important deal. But over the years, whether it's deer, elk,
Bob Beschta:
00:07:22
or cattle or sheep, they could have really significant effects
Bob Beschta:
00:07:26
on what's out there on the landscape, major effects.
Adam Huggins:
00:07:29
So there's that. But also, there's an aspect to
Adam Huggins:
00:07:33
the Yellowstone story that I think will be new to most of our
Adam Huggins:
00:07:36
listeners, and which just completely blindsided me in this
Adam Huggins:
00:07:40
interview.
Mendel Skulski:
00:07:41
Uh... what is that?
Adam Huggins:
00:07:43
When you think of Yellowstone, what is the other
Adam Huggins:
00:07:46
major conservation success story that comes to mind?
Mendel Skulski:
00:07:50
Are you talking about the big herd of bison?
Adam Huggins:
00:07:52
I am talking about the big herd of bison. The
Adam Huggins:
00:07:55
buffalo, which were almost wiped off the face of the earth at the
Adam Huggins:
00:07:59
turn of the last century, have made a remarkable recovery in
Adam Huggins:
00:08:03
Yellowstone National Park.
Mendel Skulski:
00:08:05
Another feel good story.
Adam Huggins:
00:08:07
Yes. But with at least one massive wrinkle
Bob Beschta:
00:08:12
In Yellowstone, interestingly enough, bison are
Bob Beschta:
00:08:15
limiting recovery of what's going on that ecosystem. If
Bob Beschta:
00:08:19
bison were not present in northern Yellowstone, I think
Bob Beschta:
00:08:22
the recovery story that we have seen would be fundamentally much
Bob Beschta:
00:08:28
larger, more extensive and more dramatic. It would be the
Bob Beschta:
00:08:31
ecological story of the century.
Mendel Skulski:
00:08:36
Wait, I thought Yellowstone was already the
Mendel Skulski:
00:08:40
ecological story of the century?
Adam Huggins:
00:08:43
That very well may be. But it's not nearly the
Adam Huggins:
00:08:46
story that it could have been. According to Bob, while the wolf
Adam Huggins:
00:08:50
reintroduction reduced the elk herds. The dramatic recovery of
Adam Huggins:
00:08:54
the bison has partially offset those benefits.
Bob Beschta:
00:08:57
Because bison have replaced elk. And wolves are not
Bob Beschta:
00:09:02
efficient at taking down bison.
Mendel Skulski:
00:09:04
Sorry, I'm still not following. What are the
Mendel Skulski:
00:09:07
bison doing?
Adam Huggins:
00:09:08
They are doing what bison do.
Bob Beschta:
00:09:11
Bison, throughout much of the valley systems in
Bob Beschta:
00:09:14
the northern range of Yellowstone, are just creating
Bob Beschta:
00:09:17
absolutely severe impacts to stream channels, to riparian
Bob Beschta:
00:09:20
vegetation, to soils, to the spread of exotic species. And
Bob Beschta:
00:09:24
willow can't grow, aspen can't grow, cottonwoods can't grow,
Bob Beschta:
00:09:28
native forbs can't grow, native bunch grasses get heavily
Bob Beschta:
00:09:32
foraged on, trampling is rampant throughout there, soils are
Bob Beschta:
00:09:35
compacted. It's literally like a cattle allotment, if I could put
Bob Beschta:
00:09:39
it that way, unfortunately. The effects look the same, except
Bob Beschta:
00:09:42
it's being done by a native large herbivore that is now in
Bob Beschta:
00:09:47
excessive large numbers in the wrong location.
Mendel Skulski:
00:09:50
Oh, so he's basically saying that the bison
Mendel Skulski:
00:09:54
in Yellowstone are kind of like cattle on an overstocked
Mendel Skulski:
00:09:58
pasture.
Adam Huggins:
00:09:59
Precisely.
Mendel Skulski:
00:10:00
But what does he mean by "in the wrong location"?
Adam Huggins:
00:10:04
Well, if I were to ask you where bison historically
Adam Huggins:
00:10:07
roamed, what would you say?
Mendel Skulski:
00:10:09
The... Great Plains?
Adam Huggins:
00:10:12
Well, the Great Plains are now mostly corn and
Adam Huggins:
00:10:16
canola and soybean fields. Yellowstone, on the other hand,
Adam Huggins:
00:10:20
is up in the mountains, west of the Great Plains.
Bob Beschta:
00:10:23
Bison were never present inside the park in any
Bob Beschta:
00:10:26
significant numbers. Male bison will wander across landscapes,
Bob Beschta:
00:10:30
they could have been in the park, you know. But herds of
Bob Beschta:
00:10:32
bison permanently staying inside the park, we have no evidence of
Bob Beschta:
00:10:35
that, up until the late, let's say 1800s. When the great bison
Bob Beschta:
00:10:40
killing was taking place on the Great Plains, just about at the
Bob Beschta:
00:10:43
time, when bison numbers were approaching zero, some herds of
Bob Beschta:
00:10:46
bison showed up in Yellowstone National Park. And even there,
Bob Beschta:
00:10:51
they weren't protected. And so those numbers declined
Bob Beschta:
00:10:53
considerably, until they got down to like a dozen bison. And
Bob Beschta:
00:10:57
then finally the park protected them, and it's been a great
Bob Beschta:
00:11:00
success story — the recovery. So we went from a dozen bison, now
Bob Beschta:
00:11:03
to in the Northern Range, some 4000, bison. And 4000 Bison is
Bob Beschta:
00:11:09
way above the carrying capacity of that ecosystem.
Adam Huggins:
00:11:13
So it's really an accident of history that there
Adam Huggins:
00:11:17
are so many bison in these ecosystems.
Mendel Skulski:
00:11:19
Right, it's like we've decided where they can
Mendel Skulski:
00:11:21
live, but not where they would have historically been in any
Mendel Skulski:
00:11:26
real numbers.
Adam Huggins:
00:11:27
Exactly. And I got the distinct impression that Bob
Adam Huggins:
00:11:31
feels like people just do not take this issue seriously
Adam Huggins:
00:11:34
enough. I mean, I didn't even know about it.
Mendel Skulski:
00:11:37
So what does he think should happen with all the
Mendel Skulski:
00:11:40
buffalo that we have now?
Adam Huggins:
00:11:42
I mean, it's yet another big and complex issue.
Adam Huggins:
00:11:46
But he told me, he thinks the Park Service should get as many
Adam Huggins:
00:11:49
of them out of there as possible, preferably by
Adam Huggins:
00:11:52
distributing them to tribes across the Great Plains.
Mendel Skulski:
00:11:55
Hmm. Sounds like a win win.
Adam Huggins:
00:11:57
Sure, and also a story for another day. What's
Adam Huggins:
00:12:01
certain is that Bob is really concerned about what might
Adam Huggins:
00:12:05
happen if the population is allowed to continue to increase.
Bob Beschta:
00:12:09
I cannot imagine the impacts, I cannot imagine.
Bob Beschta:
00:12:12
Do you think the American public is ready to be culling two to
Bob Beschta:
00:12:15
three thousand Bison out of northern Yellowstone every year?
Adam Huggins:
00:12:19
So, the takeaway is really that the wrong kind of
Adam Huggins:
00:12:22
herbivore in the wrong place can just have devastating
Adam Huggins:
00:12:26
consequences for an ecosystem. And Bob has been studying this
Adam Huggins:
00:12:29
for decades, not just in Yellowstone, but also elsewhere
Adam Huggins:
00:12:33
in the West — including his home state of Oregon, where he sees
Adam Huggins:
00:12:37
livestock causing all of the same kinds of damage.
Bob Beschta:
00:12:41
As I look across the landscape, the effects of
Bob Beschta:
00:12:44
livestock are pervasive and multifaceted. They occur in
Bob Beschta:
00:12:48
various ways.
Mendel Skulski:
00:12:49
Right... all of the familiar consequences of
Mendel Skulski:
00:12:53
cattle moving and eating their way across a landscape.
Bob Beschta:
00:12:57
They affect plant and animal communities directly,
Bob Beschta:
00:13:00
just by herbivory reduces plants, the composition or the
Bob Beschta:
00:13:03
amount of plant matter that's out there, which then affects
Bob Beschta:
00:13:06
wildlife habitat.
Mendel Skulski:
00:13:07
Not to mention soil compaction, erosion, water
Mendel Skulski:
00:13:11
quality degradation, and impacts to streams and riparian zones.
Bob Beschta:
00:13:17
The effects have been just major, and have been
Bob Beschta:
00:13:20
well documented.
Adam Huggins:
00:13:21
Plus, of course, all of the climate impacts that
Adam Huggins:
00:13:24
we discussed in the last episode, not only the methane
Adam Huggins:
00:13:27
that cattle produce directly...
Bob Beschta:
00:13:29
But there's a lot of other effects that go on
Bob Beschta:
00:13:31
related to climate, that is the loss of vegetation will allow a
Bob Beschta:
00:13:35
site to become more desiccated, if you will. So the drying or
Bob Beschta:
00:13:39
the increased aridity that's occurring in the West now is
Bob Beschta:
00:13:42
amplified by the loss of vegetation.
Mendel Skulski:
00:13:47
Woah... so it's actually the local climate
Mendel Skulski:
00:13:49
that's changing as a result of grazing. Less vegetation means
Mendel Skulski:
00:13:53
fewer leaves, means less water transpiration, means even higher
Mendel Skulski:
00:13:58
aridity.
Adam Huggins:
00:13:59
And that's not all.
Bob Beschta:
00:14:01
In the process of removing vegetation, we can't
Bob Beschta:
00:14:05
store carbon. Removing vegetation, having no beavers
Bob Beschta:
00:14:08
out there, just greatly reduces the amount of carbon that we
Bob Beschta:
00:14:12
could store on these public lands in the American West.
Adam Huggins:
00:14:16
What Bob is saying here is that not only are there
Adam Huggins:
00:14:20
direct greenhouse gas emissions from livestock themselves and
Adam Huggins:
00:14:24
from the associated industry, there are also significant
Adam Huggins:
00:14:29
indirect effects or opportunity costs on water and carbon
Adam Huggins:
00:14:33
storage. And these add up to make rangeland ecosystems less
Adam Huggins:
00:14:37
resilient to the climate crisis.
Mendel Skulski:
00:14:39
Yeah, not great.
Adam Huggins:
00:14:40
And I will add that those impacts are sort of
Adam Huggins:
00:14:44
permanent, and they get worse over time. Whereas many of the
Adam Huggins:
00:14:50
benefits claimed in terms of carbon sequestration tend to be
Adam Huggins:
00:14:54
smaller in scale and not necessarily lasting.
Mendel Skulski:
00:14:57
Bummer!
Adam Huggins:
00:14:57
And this isn't just speculation. These impacts
Adam Huggins:
00:15:00
have been well documented in the scientific literature, by Bob
Adam Huggins:
00:15:03
and others.
Mendel Skulski:
00:15:05
So I imagine just like with the bison, Bob's
Mendel Skulski:
00:15:09
solution would be to get the cows out of there.
Adam Huggins:
00:15:13
Bingo. But it doesn't stop there. You might
Adam Huggins:
00:15:16
have noticed he mentioned something besides excess grazers
Adam Huggins:
00:15:20
suppressing landscape carbon storage. And that is the absence
Adam Huggins:
00:15:24
of beavers.
Bob Beschta:
00:15:26
Beaver were prevalent everywhere, almost all
Bob Beschta:
00:15:28
streams in American West at one time. But during the great
Bob Beschta:
00:15:31
trapping era, we were very efficient at removing beaver —
Bob Beschta:
00:15:35
just like we remove bison from the Great Plains, the same thing
Bob Beschta:
00:15:38
has happened to beaver.
Mendel Skulski:
00:15:40
Right yeah, beaver, I guess kind of like the
Mendel Skulski:
00:15:43
bison are another keystone species and are super deeply
Mendel Skulski:
00:15:46
involved in the ecological history of of North America.
Mendel Skulski:
00:15:49
Right all those millennia of beaver dams trapping sediment is
Mendel Skulski:
00:15:54
why we have so many incredibly vibrant riparian ecosystems.
Adam Huggins:
00:15:59
Have or had... of course. Because, you know,
Adam Huggins:
00:16:05
several 100 years of colonization later, we've
Adam Huggins:
00:16:08
removed beavers, and their dams, from the majority of ecosystems
Adam Huggins:
00:16:12
across the West. And that has resulted in a tremendous loss in
Adam Huggins:
00:16:18
water storage capacity, fertility, and of course in
Adam Huggins:
00:16:22
carbon storage. I mean, by draining all of the beaver
Adam Huggins:
00:16:26
wetlands, we've altered hydrology and the carbon cycle
Adam Huggins:
00:16:30
on a continental scale. And Bob says that his home state of
Adam Huggins:
00:16:35
Oregon, which is literally known as The Beaver State, should
Adam Huggins:
00:16:39
actually be called the beaverless state because of how
Adam Huggins:
00:16:42
deficient in beaver it is today, like so much of the West.
Bob Beschta:
00:16:46
Two decades ago, I don't think beaver were on the
Bob Beschta:
00:16:48
radar screen for most ecologists in the American West. Now, maybe
Bob Beschta:
00:16:53
some, probably some, but not generally. But the scientific
Bob Beschta:
00:16:57
literature in the last two decades has become just so
Bob Beschta:
00:17:01
strong on what beaver can do. If we think having wolves on the
Bob Beschta:
00:17:06
landscape is important with regard to biodiversity for
Bob Beschta:
00:17:09
streams, and uplands and all that — and it is, they're a big
Bob Beschta:
00:17:12
deal — the biodiversity kicker or pump, if you will, is getting
Bob Beschta:
00:17:17
beaver back on the landscape, because they change moisture
Bob Beschta:
00:17:21
relationships along stream systems in ways that we can't
Bob Beschta:
00:17:25
imagine. And we can't do normally.
Adam Huggins:
00:17:27
And it's not just Bob who thinks this way. In
Adam Huggins:
00:17:31
2022, he signed on to this watershed proposal with a list
Adam Huggins:
00:17:35
of co-authors that reads like a who's-who of large mammal
Adam Huggins:
00:17:39
ecologists. And that proposal is called Rewilding the American
Adam Huggins:
00:17:44
West.
Mendel Skulski:
00:17:45
Oooh! I like the sound of that. What are they
Mendel Skulski:
00:17:49
proposing?
Adam Huggins:
00:17:50
It's actually pretty simple. They've
Adam Huggins:
00:17:52
identified an interconnected network of public lands across
Adam Huggins:
00:17:56
the intermountain west, for which they make three key
Adam Huggins:
00:18:00
recommendations.
Bob Beschta:
00:18:01
It's basically a three legged stool.
Adam Huggins:
00:18:03
First things first, retiring livestock
Adam Huggins:
00:18:06
grazing allotments on federal lands across this area,
Adam Huggins:
00:18:10
reestablishing and protecting apex predators, like gray
Adam Huggins:
00:18:14
wolves, and in some cases, cougar. And finally,
Adam Huggins:
00:18:17
reintroducing beaver into suitable habitats.
Bob Beschta:
00:18:20
We're not talking about everywhere, but we're
Bob Beschta:
00:18:21
talking about core areas. And these are areas that have
Bob Beschta:
00:18:23
sufficient native ungulates, deer or elk to support wolves.
Bob Beschta:
00:18:28
Let's reintroduce and protect beaver in these ecosystems. But
Bob Beschta:
00:18:33
in order to do that, we also then have to remove or greatly
Bob Beschta:
00:18:36
reduce the role that livestock has in those systems, because
Bob Beschta:
00:18:40
livestock and wolves do not get along generally. It's not
Bob Beschta:
00:18:43
everywhere that it's a conflict, but it's a significant deal. And
Bob Beschta:
00:18:47
livestock and beaver are incompatible. If you have heavy
Bob Beschta:
00:18:50
browsing or grazing of livestock in riparian areas, you can't
Bob Beschta:
00:18:54
have food for beaver. So the removal of livestock helps both
Bob Beschta:
00:18:58
the large predators and it helps the beaver.
Adam Huggins:
00:19:01
Bob says that cows and wolves can be compatible in
Adam Huggins:
00:19:04
certain contexts, if stocking densities are low, and ranchers
Adam Huggins:
00:19:09
practice inherding and other conflict avoidance strategies,
Adam Huggins:
00:19:13
but on the same landscape, cows and beaver are basically
Adam Huggins:
00:19:17
mutually exclusive.
Mendel Skulski:
00:19:19
Got it. So the recipe is to remove cows, add
Mendel Skulski:
00:19:25
wolves, and beaver. And what do you get?
Bob Beschta:
00:19:28
Well, our goal is to recover biodiversity. We
Bob Beschta:
00:19:31
believe and have knowledge that our western ecosystems were
Bob Beschta:
00:19:35
incredibly diverse in wildlife species and plant species, had
Bob Beschta:
00:19:40
stream systems that had high water quality, had flows that
Bob Beschta:
00:19:44
were regulated by beaver and soils in good condition. And so
Bob Beschta:
00:19:48
we would see an increase in productivity of native plant
Bob Beschta:
00:19:51
species, we'd see an increase in biodiversity we'd see improved
Bob Beschta:
00:19:55
wildlife habitat. And basically we'd begin to put these riparean
Bob Beschta:
00:20:01
as well as upland ecosystems back into a condition that would
Bob Beschta:
00:20:05
be helpful with regard to moving forward with climate change.
Bob Beschta:
00:20:08
Climate change is going to be the new stressor. The best way
Bob Beschta:
00:20:12
to be able to resist the impacts of climate change is to have
Bob Beschta:
00:20:16
very healthy and intact and functioning ecosystems. And to
Bob Beschta:
00:20:19
do that we need all the species present that we can get. And
Bob Beschta:
00:20:23
right now, we don't have that.
Mendel Skulski:
00:20:25
We don't have that. It'd be nice to have that.
Adam Huggins:
00:20:29
I think so too.
Mendel Skulski:
00:20:30
But from everything we've heard earlier
Mendel Skulski:
00:20:33
in this series, this proposal feels like it's probably a
Mendel Skulski:
00:20:36
nonstarter for the people and the communities who have strong
Mendel Skulski:
00:20:40
ties to ranching, and all of the economic arguments they like to
Mendel Skulski:
00:20:45
make.
Adam Huggins:
00:20:46
Yes. And Bob will tell you that he and his fellow
Adam Huggins:
00:20:49
scientists are just proposing what they think these ecosystems
Adam Huggins:
00:20:53
need in the face of climate change, based on the best
Adam Huggins:
00:20:56
available science. He acknowledges that the plan would
Adam Huggins:
00:20:59
require buyouts of small ranchers in core areas, and
Adam Huggins:
00:21:03
other cultural and economic changes. But it's not all costs.
Adam Huggins:
00:21:08
Bob suggests that, besides saving us from some of the worst
Adam Huggins:
00:21:12
economic impacts of climate change, improved habitat also
Adam Huggins:
00:21:16
means improved recreation and tourism, of course. And from his
Adam Huggins:
00:21:20
perspective, despite being the status quo for land use in the
Adam Huggins:
00:21:24
West, the economic contribution of cattle ranching is actually
Adam Huggins:
00:21:28
pretty marginal.
Bob Beschta:
00:21:29
If you look at total livestock production on
Bob Beschta:
00:21:31
public lands in American West, it's a small, small percentage
Bob Beschta:
00:21:35
of the total. And so it's not necessary for meeting national
Bob Beschta:
00:21:40
production goals, if I can put it that way. But in the process,
Bob Beschta:
00:21:43
the ecological impacts, and the effects in regard to climate
Bob Beschta:
00:21:46
change are very important and very severe.
Mendel Skulski:
00:21:48
Just how marginal are we talking about
Mendel Skulski:
00:21:52
here?
Adam Huggins:
00:21:52
So in terms of the amount of forage that public
Adam Huggins:
00:21:56
lands in the West provide to the beef industry as a whole, in the
Adam Huggins:
00:22:00
United States, it's in the range of 2 to 3%.
Mendel Skulski:
00:22:06
Okay, so in other words, we use and damage a
Mendel Skulski:
00:22:12
lot of land to produce a tiny amount of the actual meat that
Mendel Skulski:
00:22:16
gets consumed.
Adam Huggins:
00:22:17
That is a fact. What is much more contentious is
Adam Huggins:
00:22:21
what a proposal like this would do to the economy and culture of
Adam Huggins:
00:22:25
small communities throughout this region.
Mendel Skulski:
00:22:27
Right, just like Ashley was saying in part one,
Mendel Skulski:
00:22:30
cattle are the glue that holds some of these communities
Mendel Skulski:
00:22:33
together.
Adam Huggins:
00:22:34
Yes, and just because their economic
Adam Huggins:
00:22:37
production is marginal on a national scale, doesn't mean it
Adam Huggins:
00:22:41
isn't significant locally.
Mendel Skulski:
00:22:46
Well, I can only imagine what the right wing
Mendel Skulski:
00:22:48
would do if the Biden administration actually embraced
Mendel Skulski:
00:22:51
this proposal. Like back when the Green New Deal was still
Mendel Skulski:
00:22:55
new, I remember that it was at most tepid when it came to
Mendel Skulski:
00:22:59
agricultural reform.
Adam Huggins:
00:23:01
Yeah.
Mendel Skulski:
00:23:01
Right. Like, was there even any mention of beef
Mendel Skulski:
00:23:03
or cattle?
Adam Huggins:
00:23:03
I don't think so.
Mendel Skulski:
00:23:04
No. And that didn't stop Republicans from
Mendel Skulski:
00:23:07
hollering about the war on hamburgers.
Sebastian Gorka:
00:23:10
They want to take away your hamburgers. This
Sebastian Gorka:
00:23:13
is what Stalin dreamt about, but never achieved.
Adam Huggins:
00:23:16
I mean, if you can find something that will stop
Adam Huggins:
00:23:19
conservatives from hollering about the war on hamburgers,
Adam Huggins:
00:23:22
just let me know, okay?
Mendel Skulski:
00:23:23
Sure.
Adam Huggins:
00:23:25
We might as well have one. I mean, it's clear
Adam Huggins:
00:23:28
that certain members of government are very happy to
Adam Huggins:
00:23:31
performatively eat fast food or collect campaign contributions
Adam Huggins:
00:23:35
from the US Cattlemen's Association, right?
Mendel Skulski:
00:23:37
Yeah, big ranch.
Adam Huggins:
00:23:39
On a more serious note, this whole series, we have
Adam Huggins:
00:23:43
been talking about ranching as if it is, you know, all small
Adam Huggins:
00:23:47
family-run businesses – the multi generational cowboy
Adam Huggins:
00:23:50
rancher operation.
Mendel Skulski:
00:23:52
Sure, like Clayton and his family.
Adam Huggins:
00:23:54
Yeah. And there are still lots of folks like
Adam Huggins:
00:23:57
Clayton around. But they are increasingly the exception in
Adam Huggins:
00:24:01
what is otherwise a mega-scale industry.
Bob Beschta:
00:24:04
The western mythology has just provided us
Bob Beschta:
00:24:08
with this concept that Western ranchers are doing wonderful
Bob Beschta:
00:24:13
things on the land, and we should just leave them alone.
Bob Beschta:
00:24:17
It's a mom and pop operation. When the reality today is most
Bob Beschta:
00:24:20
grazing is not mom and pop anymore.
Adam Huggins:
00:24:22
And that is not just the rewilding people
Adam Huggins:
00:24:25
talking. Ashley also pointed this out.
Ashley Ahearn:
00:24:28
I don't have a lot of sympathy for the mega
Ashley Ahearn:
00:24:30
businesses that are trashing public lands. Like, full stop,
Ashley Ahearn:
00:24:32
don't really give a shit about those ranchers and how they're
Ashley Ahearn:
00:24:35
doing their business is like frankly, upsetting to me on
Ashley Ahearn:
00:24:37
public lands. I will say that full on.
Adam Huggins:
00:24:40
And the consolidation within the
Adam Huggins:
00:24:42
meatpacking and ranching industries is not just a huge
Adam Huggins:
00:24:46
issue for the land, but also for the remaining mom and pop
Adam Huggins:
00:24:50
operations like those that Ashley featured in Women's Work.
Ashley Ahearn:
00:24:53
I would not presume to say that the ranchers
Ashley Ahearn:
00:24:56
that I featured in this series represent a giant shift that is
Ashley Ahearn:
00:25:00
happening. I think that the entrenched system is very, very
Ashley Ahearn:
00:25:03
strong. It is very, very wealthy. It is fighting attempts
Ashley Ahearn:
00:25:06
by the Biden administration to regulate it and to break it
Ashley Ahearn:
00:25:09
apart.
Mendel Skulski:
00:25:11
Okay, so a friendly reminder that
Mendel Skulski:
00:25:14
agribusiness is often big business, and maybe doesn't
Mendel Skulski:
00:25:20
deserve our sympathy when it's wrecking wildlands, reaping huge
Mendel Skulski:
00:25:25
profits, and then playing the victim.
Adam Huggins:
00:25:27
Yeah.
Mendel Skulski:
00:25:28
So I was counting arguments in the
Mendel Skulski:
00:25:30
pro-cow episode. Why don't we track them here too?
Adam Huggins:
00:25:34
Oh, sure. Go ahead.
Mendel Skulski:
00:25:35
Okay, so I would say argument number one would be
Mendel Skulski:
00:25:39
that the rewilding folks point out that ranching in the West is
Mendel Skulski:
00:25:43
often big business that represents a tiny amount of
Mendel Skulski:
00:25:47
overall national production.
Adam Huggins:
00:25:49
But uses a lot of land and water. And while the
Adam Huggins:
00:25:53
issue of smallholders is a concern for this rewilding
Adam Huggins:
00:25:57
proposal, it might not have to be a make or break because of
Adam Huggins:
00:26:00
this. There's no question that, even if implemented in small
Adam Huggins:
00:26:04
parts, in stages, this proposal has the potential to be
Adam Huggins:
00:26:09
transformative for Western wild lands facing down the climate
Adam Huggins:
00:26:12
crisis. And Bob says, ecologically, cows just don't
Adam Huggins:
00:26:17
have a place in it.
Bob Beschta:
00:26:18
From an ecological perspective, I would suggest
Bob Beschta:
00:26:21
there's probably no reason why we need to have livestock in our
Bob Beschta:
00:26:28
western ecosystems. Overall, these ecosystems thrived, did
Bob Beschta:
00:26:32
very well, without this large herbivore at large densities
Bob Beschta:
00:26:36
across the landscape every year. We have no analogue for that
Bob Beschta:
00:26:40
prior to the introduction of livestock.
Mendel Skulski:
00:26:46
But what about bison? Right, like aren't aren't
Mendel Skulski:
00:26:47
those an analogue for the livestock we have now?
Adam Huggins:
00:26:50
You could make an argument for that, again, in the
Adam Huggins:
00:26:53
Great Plains, and also perhaps in some parts of the
Adam Huggins:
00:26:57
intermountain west and even out east. But most of California,
Adam Huggins:
00:27:01
the coastal West, and other parts of the intermountain west,
Adam Huggins:
00:27:04
don't appear to have much of a history with bison, at least
Adam Huggins:
00:27:07
within the Holocene.
Mendel Skulski:
00:27:09
Okay, then what about all the benefits of
Mendel Skulski:
00:27:12
grazing in California? Like, everything we've been covering
Mendel Skulski:
00:27:16
in the last two episodes?
Adam Huggins:
00:27:18
You know, I asked Bob about that. Because it's
Adam Huggins:
00:27:22
been a central question of this series for me. The conservation
Adam Huggins:
00:27:25
community in California, for the most part, has embraced the cow.
Adam Huggins:
00:27:29
And so is that something that is happening elsewhere in the West?
Adam Huggins:
00:27:33
Or is it like so many things, a California thing?
Bob Beschta:
00:27:38
Um, I guess I would almost have to say it's a
Bob Beschta:
00:27:41
California thing.
Adam Huggins:
00:27:43
I gotta say, that's been my general
Adam Huggins:
00:27:45
observation as well. There are lots of pro-cattle folks
Adam Huggins:
00:27:49
throughout the West. And they're, you know, are some
Adam Huggins:
00:27:51
notable circumstances where cows are being used for conservation.
Adam Huggins:
00:27:55
But outside of California, that's just not that common.
Mendel Skulski:
00:27:59
So what would a rewilding proposal like this
Mendel Skulski:
00:28:03
look like in the state of California?
Adam Huggins:
00:28:06
That is what we are about to discuss... after
Adam Huggins:
00:28:10
the break.
Mendel Skulski:
00:28:25
Hey, it's me... again. I just wanted to say a
Mendel Skulski:
00:28:29
huge thank you to everyone who answered our call for support.
Mendel Skulski:
00:28:34
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Mendel Skulski:
00:28:38
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Mendel Skulski:
00:28:41
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Mendel Skulski:
00:28:46
enjoy. And with your help, hopefully, jobs for others, too.
Mendel Skulski:
00:28:52
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Mendel Skulski:
00:28:58
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Mendel Skulski:
00:29:02
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00:29:08
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00:29:12
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00:29:20
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00:29:24
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00:29:28
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Mendel Skulski:
00:29:32
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Mendel Skulski:
00:30:05
you. Okay, back to the show.
Adam Huggins:
00:30:13
We are back. I am Adam.
Mendel Skulski:
00:30:16
I am Mendel. This is Future Ecologies.
Adam Huggins:
00:30:21
And today we are all about rewilding, and maybe
Adam Huggins:
00:30:25
not so hot on cows. And we're coming back to California now to
Adam Huggins:
00:30:30
ask what's going on here. So, I've got two folks to introduce
Adam Huggins:
00:30:35
you to, Mendel.
Mendel Skulski:
00:30:36
Let's do it.
Adam Huggins:
00:30:37
The first is Jon Keeley.
Jon Keeley:
00:30:39
I'm a research scientist with the US Geological
Jon Keeley:
00:30:41
Survey, and an adjunct professor at UCLA. And in my research
Jon Keeley:
00:30:47
specialty is fire and the ecological impacts of fire and
Jon Keeley:
00:30:51
how climate impacts fires.
Adam Huggins:
00:30:53
John has been studying and writing about fire
Adam Huggins:
00:30:55
in California for decades. And I just want to read you a few of
Adam Huggins:
00:31:00
the titles of some of his many published papers.
Mendel Skulski:
00:31:03
Sure.
Adam Huggins:
00:31:04
Fire as global herbivore
Mendel Skulski:
00:31:07
Woah...
Adam Huggins:
00:31:08
Fire as an evolutionary pressure shaping
Adam Huggins:
00:31:10
plant traits.
Mendel Skulski:
00:31:11
Wow.
Adam Huggins:
00:31:12
Wildfires as an ecosystem service.
Mendel Skulski:
00:31:14
Mm.
Adam Huggins:
00:31:15
The role of fire in the history of life.
Mendel Skulski:
00:31:19
Fire... it's everywhere, and everything!
Adam Huggins:
00:31:21
It feels like our entire podcast is just one long
Adam Huggins:
00:31:24
running series on fire sometimes.
Mendel Skulski:
00:31:26
Sure does. Okay, who else are we talking to?
Adam Huggins:
00:31:29
Last but not least for this series, we have Laura
Adam Huggins:
00:31:32
Cunningham. She's an artist, naturalist, author, and
Adam Huggins:
00:31:36
California director for the Western Watersheds Project. And
Adam Huggins:
00:31:40
she is also, Mendel, the rare person that I encountered who
Adam Huggins:
00:31:44
has changed their mind about livestock.
Laura Cunningham:
00:31:46
Yeah, I actually was sort of a little
Laura Cunningham:
00:31:48
more pro livestock grazing. And now I'm a little bit less pro
Laura Cunningham:
00:31:54
livestock grazing. So I mean, I'll admit that my perspectives
Laura Cunningham:
00:31:58
have shifted over the decades, when I get new input and more
Laura Cunningham:
00:32:02
experience and maybe broader experience outside of the Bay
Laura Cunningham:
00:32:05
Area.
Adam Huggins:
00:32:06
Among other things, Laura wrote and
Adam Huggins:
00:32:08
illustrated a book called A State of Change - Forgotten
Adam Huggins:
00:32:11
Landscapes of California. And I haven't really seen anything
Adam Huggins:
00:32:16
else like it. It's this fascinating combination of
Adam Huggins:
00:32:20
paleo-ecological research, archival work, natural history
Adam Huggins:
00:32:24
studies, all culminating in these beautiful illustrations,
Adam Huggins:
00:32:29
imagining the landscapes of pre colonial California.
Mendel Skulski:
00:32:32
Oh, that's so cool. And I bet there aren't any
Mendel Skulski:
00:32:37
cows in her illustrations.
Adam Huggins:
00:32:40
No cows in the cowboy song, and no cows in
Adam Huggins:
00:32:44
Laurens book. But there are birds, and bunchgrasses, and
Adam Huggins:
00:32:48
grizzly bears, and salmon.
Mendel Skulski:
00:32:50
Deer, antelope?
Adam Huggins:
00:32:52
Playing even. And of course, Indigenous people,
Adam Huggins:
00:32:56
and the ecosystems that they were stewarding using fire,
Adam Huggins:
00:32:59
among other things.
Mendel Skulski:
00:33:00
Of course.
Adam Huggins:
00:33:01
So when you ask someone like Laura, what a
Adam Huggins:
00:33:03
rangeland is, she has a very different answer from Lynn.
Laura Cunningham:
00:33:07
Yeah, I would call a rangeland, kind of an
Laura Cunningham:
00:33:10
extractive use of a grassland. And I would call a native
Laura Cunningham:
00:33:15
grassland, a grassland. So I'm a little bit thinking that range
Laura Cunningham:
00:33:20
land is like a artificial, managed system for production
Laura Cunningham:
00:33:26
of, you know, livestock and forage. So my, my idea of a
Laura Cunningham:
00:33:29
range land is it's post European contact.
Mendel Skulski:
00:33:35
Right. Okay, so rangeland is a utilitarian term
Mendel Skulski:
00:33:40
from her perspective.
Adam Huggins:
00:33:41
I mean, would you call a forest a timberland?
Mendel Skulski:
00:33:45
Only if I were a logging company.
Adam Huggins:
00:33:47
So no surprise, ranchers use the term
Adam Huggins:
00:33:50
rangelands.
Mendel Skulski:
00:33:50
I guess not.
Adam Huggins:
00:33:51
But I should add that Laura works with ranchers a
Adam Huggins:
00:33:54
lot. And so she has a healthy respect for what they do, and
Adam Huggins:
00:33:58
the problems that they face.
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:00
Not all ranchers are the same,
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:01
obviously. And I've seen really well-managed ranches. Then I've
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:06
seen ranchers who are struggling, and they try to
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:11
stuff as many cows onto that landscape as possible. And it
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:16
looks like crap. So there are some ranchers who you just can't
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:21
justify that they're doing a good job managing the land. To
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:24
be fair, I think that a lot of ranchers, and I talk with a lot
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:27
of them, do a better job. And it's a hard way to make a living
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:31
too. I don't think the goal is to, you know, we're just gonna
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:36
go out there and get rid of all the cattle immediately. A lot of
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:40
what I do is work with ranchers and land managers to make things
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:46
better on the land.
Adam Huggins:
00:34:47
But when it comes to the new science supporting
Adam Huggins:
00:34:50
cows for conservation in California, her view is actually
Adam Huggins:
00:34:54
pretty dim.
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:55
I mean, there's a lot of so-called
Laura Cunningham:
00:34:57
scientific papers coming out now that are claiming cattle and
Laura Cunningham:
00:35:02
ranching can benefit landscapes. But I kind of call them gray
Laura Cunningham:
00:35:06
literature, because I think they're taking the conclusion
Laura Cunningham:
00:35:09
that some groups want and coming up with that conclusion.
Adam Huggins:
00:35:14
And there are a few reasons for this. For one,
Adam Huggins:
00:35:18
all of the rangelands people will tell you that it was from
Adam Huggins:
00:35:21
witnessing the negative impacts of removing cattle from
Adam Huggins:
00:35:24
conservation areas that we started to learn about and
Adam Huggins:
00:35:27
finally study the benefits. It's a bit tough to generalize about
Adam Huggins:
00:35:31
all of this, obviously. But so many of the studies promoting
Adam Huggins:
00:35:35
the benefits of grazing compare grazed to ungrazed areas. And
Adam Huggins:
00:35:39
these studies generally share some common features. They are
Adam Huggins:
00:35:43
relatively short term, and the ungrazed areas don't usually
Adam Huggins:
00:35:47
have any other treatments applied. They're just left
Adam Huggins:
00:35:50
alone,
Laura Cunningham:
00:35:50
We've had a huge impact with cattle. You
Laura Cunningham:
00:35:53
take the cattle out, you're left with a heavily disturbed
Laura Cunningham:
00:35:56
impacted landscape. And so yes, if you just leave it, like
Laura Cunningham:
00:36:00
passive restoration, yeah, it may just take a trajectory that
Laura Cunningham:
00:36:05
you don't like. But I guess I'm looking at active restoration,
Laura Cunningham:
00:36:09
as opposed to that passive restoration. You have to maybe
Laura Cunningham:
00:36:13
actively go back in there and use things like cultural fire,
Laura Cunningham:
00:36:18
or native elk grazers, or hand pulling the weeds to get it back
Laura Cunningham:
00:36:24
into a trajectory where you're gonna get more natives.
Mendel Skulski:
00:36:28
That sounds like a lot more work, but it makes
Mendel Skulski:
00:36:31
sense. You have what everyone agrees is a highly altered,
Mendel Skulski:
00:36:34
highly invaded ecosystem. So if you compare some treatment —
Adam Huggins:
00:36:40
Any treatment...
Mendel Skulski:
00:36:41
Yeah, to no treatment, then it will probably
Mendel Skulski:
00:36:45
make the treatment look good. If your treatment is grazing,
Mendel Skulski:
00:36:49
grazing looks good.
Adam Huggins:
00:36:51
Exactly. And the other critique is all about
Adam Huggins:
00:36:55
time. Here's Bob, again,
Bob Beschta:
00:36:58
They'll talk about all the wonderful things they
Bob Beschta:
00:36:59
can do. And I'll say that's great. And I said, we should be
Bob Beschta:
00:37:02
doing some experiments, and they'll say, yeah. And my
Bob Beschta:
00:37:05
experiment always is "let's remove livestock temporarily".
Bob Beschta:
00:37:10
Initially, they might be agreeable to that kind of thing.
Bob Beschta:
00:37:13
But then I will indicate by temporarily, I mean at least two
Bob Beschta:
00:37:16
decades. We've been grazing Western landscapes with exotic
Bob Beschta:
00:37:20
large herbivores for over a century, okay — every year for
Bob Beschta:
00:37:23
over a century. So a period of rest is not a one year
Bob Beschta:
00:37:28
phenomenon or a two year phenomenon. These ecosystems
Bob Beschta:
00:37:31
need a significant period of rest. So my argument would be is
Bob Beschta:
00:37:35
we need to rest these systems for at least two decades, and
Bob Beschta:
00:37:39
then we get to assess whether or not we should be grazing these
Bob Beschta:
00:37:42
landscapes at all, or if so how much.
Adam Huggins:
00:37:46
He told me that it took years and years for an
Adam Huggins:
00:37:49
intervention as dramatic as reintroducing wolves to show
Adam Huggins:
00:37:54
positive impacts in Yellowstone.
Mendel Skulski:
00:37:56
Okay, so then, argument number two, the
Mendel Skulski:
00:37:59
evidence supporting grazing for biodiversity and associated
Mendel Skulski:
00:38:03
values is often based on short term studies that don't consider
Mendel Skulski:
00:38:11
other forms of active management.
Adam Huggins:
00:38:13
That's what the rewilding folks say. Plus, if
Adam Huggins:
00:38:17
ranchers are such great land managers, like they say they
Adam Huggins:
00:38:19
are, and good management can mitigate the negative impacts
Adam Huggins:
00:38:23
that we've been discussing, then why do we continue to see those
Adam Huggins:
00:38:27
negative impacts on rangelands everywhere?
Bob Beschta:
00:38:30
Well, I've heard those arguments — that we can
Bob Beschta:
00:38:32
avoid things, we can do a better job. And my comment is, well
Bob Beschta:
00:38:37
then do it. Show me.
Mendel Skulski:
00:38:38
So argument number three, good management is
Mendel Skulski:
00:38:43
better than bad management. But even well managed herds can have
Mendel Skulski:
00:38:48
obvious negative impacts.
Adam Huggins:
00:38:50
Yes, for the rewilding folks, not all that
Adam Huggins:
00:38:53
much has changed since the bad old days of the 60s 70s and 80s.
Mendel Skulski:
00:38:58
Let alone the gold rush.
Laura Cunningham:
00:38:59
There's a new trend in California called
Laura Cunningham:
00:39:01
Wait... I thought the native grasses were all but wiped out
Laura Cunningham:
00:39:02
"conservation grazing" or "conservation ranching", which I
Laura Cunningham:
00:39:07
disagree with. But there's an attempt to sort of cover up the
Laura Cunningham:
00:39:12
big impacts of grazing livestock on the land, and it involves
Laura Cunningham:
00:39:17
things like, you know, "Oh, we're going to reduce fuel.
Laura Cunningham:
00:39:21
We're going to provide a carbon sink. You know, the manure from
Laura Cunningham:
00:39:26
all these cows supposedly puts carbon back into the soil". But
Laura Cunningham:
00:39:31
when I go look at what I call my reference sites, these are
Laura Cunningham:
00:39:36
relict native bunchgrasslands or meadows of perennial meadow
Laura Cunningham:
00:39:41
grasses. I really see what we have lost.
Laura Cunningham:
00:39:49
by introduced species. What's Laura talking about here?
Adam Huggins:
00:39:54
What Laura is talking about are the small
Adam Huggins:
00:39:57
pockets — not many, but a few — where you can still see
Adam Huggins:
00:40:01
fragments of native California grassland, relict grasslands,
Adam Huggins:
00:40:05
just hanging in there. So when she thinks about what's possible
Adam Huggins:
00:40:10
for rangelands in California, she sees more than just this
Adam Huggins:
00:40:14
novel ecosystem that we have to accept and graze with cows.
Laura Cunningham:
00:40:19
People say "Oh, it's a changed California
Laura Cunningham:
00:40:21
annual grassland. Now it's permanent. You know, all you can
Laura Cunningham:
00:40:25
do is use cattle to graze it". I think that's wrong, because I
Laura Cunningham:
00:40:29
changed my perspective since the 1990s, where I've collected data
Laura Cunningham:
00:40:36
on all these relict reference sites, I call them, of ungrazed,
Laura Cunningham:
00:40:40
or lightly grazed lightly, disturbed native grasslands.
Laura Cunningham:
00:40:44
They're not just on serpentine areas. They're not just on north
Laura Cunningham:
00:40:48
slopes. They're everywhere. And the key is they're protected
Laura Cunningham:
00:40:51
from heavy grazing, or disturbance of some kind.
Laura Cunningham:
00:40:56
They're not grazed, except maybe by an elk here and there. But
Laura Cunningham:
00:41:00
you get down on your hands and knees. And it's like, there's
Laura Cunningham:
00:41:02
this cloud forest of lichens and mosses under the bunchgrasses,
Laura Cunningham:
00:41:08
and you walk on this prairie and it's spongy. It feels like
Laura Cunningham:
00:41:12
you're walking on a sponge. There's no bare ground, no
Laura Cunningham:
00:41:16
erosion. When the rain falls onto this prairie, the water
Laura Cunningham:
00:41:20
soaks in. And then you go to a cow pasture on the other side of
Laura Cunningham:
00:41:25
the barbed wire fence, and it's completely different. It's bare
Laura Cunningham:
00:41:29
dirt, there's erosion, there's manure, that in our wintry
Laura Cunningham:
00:41:33
rainstorms gets washed into the creeks and starts polluting, you
Laura Cunningham:
00:41:37
know, salmon habitat. You have a lot of invasive European
Laura Cunningham:
00:41:42
annuals, thistles, poison hemlock, it's just a completely
Laura Cunningham:
00:41:47
different thing.
Adam Huggins:
00:41:48
And, you know, this tracks with my own personal
Adam Huggins:
00:41:51
experience, Mendel. For every spectacular success story like
Adam Huggins:
00:41:56
Tulare Hill, there are a dozen pretty barren hillsides that
Adam Huggins:
00:42:00
don't really look like they're benefiting from grazing. On the
Adam Huggins:
00:42:04
other hand, these relict grassland sites that Laura is
Adam Huggins:
00:42:08
talking about. They just don't seem to need cows to be
Adam Huggins:
00:42:12
beautiful and biodiverse. All on their own.
Laura Cunningham:
00:42:15
It's like I call it "old growth grassland".
Laura Cunningham:
00:42:18
That is actually what sequestering carbon — deep, six
Laura Cunningham:
00:42:22
feet down into the soil with the roots of these perennial,
Laura Cunningham:
00:42:26
long-lived bunchgrasses. And I try to take groups of people
Laura Cunningham:
00:42:30
like field trips to show them and some of them don't even
Laura Cunningham:
00:42:33
believe it. They see the actual native grassland. And they're
Laura Cunningham:
00:42:38
like, astonished. It's completely different than what
Laura Cunningham:
00:42:40
you see when you're driving around most of California.
Adam Huggins:
00:42:43
And interwoven with those deep, long lived
Adam Huggins:
00:42:47
perennial bunchgrass roots. You have something called biological
Adam Huggins:
00:42:51
soil crusts.
Mendel Skulski:
00:42:52
They're so cool. They deserve their own episode.
Laura Cunningham:
00:42:55
Yeah, biological soil crusts are
Laura Cunningham:
00:42:57
really interesting because they're a symbiotic network of
Laura Cunningham:
00:43:03
plants, and lichens, fungi, and blue-green algae that are doing
Laura Cunningham:
00:43:10
their work mostly in the soil. So you don't see it most of the
Laura Cunningham:
00:43:13
time. The mycelial networks, and blue green algae filaments of
Laura Cunningham:
00:43:18
the soil crust connect with the root tips of shrubs, trees and
Laura Cunningham:
00:43:24
grasses, and actually help deliver nutrients to these
Laura Cunningham:
00:43:29
plants. So there's a symbiosis going on under the soil, and we
Laura Cunningham:
00:43:32
just completely, mostly aren't aware of it. And when you
Laura Cunningham:
00:43:36
trample it, drive on it, over-graze it, or scrape it, you
Laura Cunningham:
00:43:42
lose that... you completely lose that. Those are very delicate,
Laura Cunningham:
00:43:46
old growth living systems. Finding an intact biological
Laura Cunningham:
00:43:51
soil crust has actually become rarer now, especially on
Laura Cunningham:
00:43:55
rangelands where they can't take the heavy hoof trampling and
Laura Cunningham:
00:44:00
constant grazing of cattle and sheep.
Adam Huggins:
00:44:04
Bob also mentioned these remarkable living soils.
Bob Beschta:
00:44:08
It's something we've almost forgotten about in
Bob Beschta:
00:44:10
the American West, but these were common everywhere. They
Bob Beschta:
00:44:13
protected soil surfaces from erosion. They provided micro
Bob Beschta:
00:44:17
habitats for plants. And in many cases that they're gone.
Adam Huggins:
00:44:22
In my own personal experience, I just haven't seen
Adam Huggins:
00:44:26
these on annual grasslands with livestock grazing.
Mendel Skulski:
00:44:31
So argument number four, maybe these
Mendel Skulski:
00:44:34
ecosystems don't have to be thought of as novel. Maybe
Mendel Skulski:
00:44:38
they're just really, really damaged by centuries of cattle
Mendel Skulski:
00:44:42
grazing, but there is still some potential that they could be
Mendel Skulski:
00:44:46
restored.
Adam Huggins:
00:44:47
Yeah, and Bob can point to sites where this has
Adam Huggins:
00:44:50
occurred in Oregon, like Hart Mountain.
Bob Beschta:
00:44:53
Hart Mountain National antelope refuge in
Bob Beschta:
00:44:55
Southern Oregon. We've now got 30 years of recovery. Every year
Bob Beschta:
00:44:59
it gets just more impressive. It takes time. Hart Mountain today,
Bob Beschta:
00:45:04
30 years after livestock removal, from an ecological
Bob Beschta:
00:45:06
standpoint is just an incredibly different place than it was 30
Bob Beschta:
00:45:10
years ago, after almost a century of livestock grazing.
Adam Huggins:
00:45:14
And then Laura pointed to all sorts of
Adam Huggins:
00:45:16
different initiatives in California, from Indigenous
Adam Huggins:
00:45:19
tribes like the Karuk Reclaiming cultural fire.
Mendel Skulski:
00:45:22
Which we covered in season one.
Adam Huggins:
00:45:23
To small projects in city parks, just using
Adam Huggins:
00:45:26
handtools. Restoring California native grasslands is hard, she
Adam Huggins:
00:45:31
says, but not impossible.
Laura Cunningham:
00:45:34
Using cattle to manage ecosystems, to me is
Laura Cunningham:
00:45:38
kind of the lazy way to do it. And in the last 10 years, I've
Laura Cunningham:
00:45:42
learned that you can restore native grasslands without
Laura Cunningham:
00:45:46
cattle. And maybe it takes a little bit more planning. I
Laura Cunningham:
00:45:50
think it's lazy to just say, "Okay, put cows on it. Now we
Laura Cunningham:
00:45:54
can justify the cattle and say that they're all these
Laura Cunningham:
00:45:56
conservation management tools", when there are other options.
Laura Cunningham:
00:46:01
And I have had personal experience looking at these
Laura Cunningham:
00:46:04
other options, and they're working.
Mendel Skulski:
00:46:06
So instead of cows, it's fire and mowing.
Adam Huggins:
00:46:10
And elk, and beaver.
Mendel Skulski:
00:46:12
Okay, so it's also rewilding.
Adam Huggins:
00:46:15
Yes. Laura, and the folks at the Western
Adam Huggins:
00:46:18
watersheds project really love that proposal.
Laura Cunningham:
00:46:20
Oh, yeah. We've been talking about that
Laura Cunningham:
00:46:22
proposal a lot. Western Watersheds Project, I mean, our
Laura Cunningham:
00:46:26
focus is livestock grazing, but our mission is restoration. And
Laura Cunningham:
00:46:30
we definitely support rewilding with beavers and wolves. That
Laura Cunningham:
00:46:35
would be a paradise to me.
Adam Huggins:
00:46:36
So beavers were almost completely extirpated in
Adam Huggins:
00:46:45
California. So much so that many people just assumed that they
Adam Huggins:
00:46:49
were never even here in the first place. It's a kind of
Adam Huggins:
00:46:53
beaver erasure. But they are making a comeback. And the
Adam Huggins:
00:46:56
argument from the rewilding folks is, "Why should we rely on
Adam Huggins:
00:47:00
stock ponds for amphibian habitat, when we could just
Adam Huggins:
00:47:03
restore their actual historic habitats using beaver? And for
Adam Huggins:
00:47:08
that matter, why should we have cows grazing all of these
Adam Huggins:
00:47:11
grasslands when we have the native Tule elk, which are also
Adam Huggins:
00:47:15
making a comeback?" And so on, reintroducing wolves and
Adam Huggins:
00:47:19
traditional cultural management. With all of this, we could
Adam Huggins:
00:47:22
recover a richness of species and habitats not seen in
Adam Huggins:
00:47:27
generations. And you know, as dreamy as that would be,
Adam Huggins:
00:47:32
everyone I spoke to — both the rewilders and the rangelands
Adam Huggins:
00:47:36
folks — agree that it's simply not compatible with ecosystems
Adam Huggins:
00:47:41
that are managing cattle for meat production, and barbed wire
Adam Huggins:
00:47:45
fences.
Mendel Skulski:
00:47:47
Okay, but we're calling today "Rewilding Day",
Mendel Skulski:
00:47:51
right?
Adam Huggins:
00:47:52
My favorite day of the year.
Mendel Skulski:
00:47:53
So can we at least entertain the idea?
Adam Huggins:
00:47:57
Oh, yeah. I mean, what are we doing? Right? I will
Adam Huggins:
00:48:00
take elk and beaver and wolves over cows any day of the week,
Adam Huggins:
00:48:04
personally. I think that's clear. But while we're
Adam Huggins:
00:48:07
entertaining wild ideas, I have one more for you.
Mendel Skulski:
00:48:11
Is that so?
Adam Huggins:
00:48:12
Yes, as a matter of fact. So all of this time,
Adam Huggins:
00:48:15
I've been talking with rangelands folks. And as you'll
Adam Huggins:
00:48:18
remember from the first episode, they're really concerned about
Adam Huggins:
00:48:21
how many of California's grasslands are being invaded by
Adam Huggins:
00:48:26
shrubs.
Mendel Skulski:
00:48:27
Shrubs!
Adam Huggins:
00:48:28
Here's Lynn Huntsinger.
Lynn Huntsinger:
00:48:29
Now shrubland is interesting around here. We
Lynn Huntsinger:
00:48:32
have certain species that tend to be very invasive, they're
Lynn Huntsinger:
00:48:35
native. One of them is coyote brush.
Adam Huggins:
00:48:37
Coyote brush is an early succession native species,
Adam Huggins:
00:48:41
very common in California. But all of the rangelands folks
Adam Huggins:
00:48:44
refer to it as invasive, because they're concerned with keeping
Adam Huggins:
00:48:48
these grasslands open — for the grass for the cows, and for all
Adam Huggins:
00:48:53
of those rare grassland species.
Mendel Skulski:
00:48:56
Fair enough, I guess.
Adam Huggins:
00:48:58
Yeah. But at the same time, this discourse of
Adam Huggins:
00:49:01
"shrub invasion" has always kind of rubbed me the wrong way. You
Adam Huggins:
00:49:05
know, my own personal values are, I'd love to restore native
Adam Huggins:
00:49:09
cover. And meanwhile, these folks are intent on killing the
Adam Huggins:
00:49:13
one native plant trying to make a go of it on these invaded
Adam Huggins:
00:49:17
grasslands. And I kind of thought I was alone in thinking
Adam Huggins:
00:49:21
this... until I spoke with Jon Keeley.
Mendel Skulski:
00:49:25
Oh, right, fireman! I was wondering when
Mendel Skulski:
00:49:29
you're going to bring him back.
Adam Huggins:
00:49:31
Right now. When I talked to Jon, it was like a
Adam Huggins:
00:49:34
light bulb went off. He's like, "Well, of course, the coyote
Adam Huggins:
00:49:38
brush moves in. And so what you're looking at"
Jon Keeley:
00:49:40
Is what the natural successional processes are. And
Jon Keeley:
00:49:44
eventually the coyote brush will be invaded by other more
Jon Keeley:
00:49:48
permanent shrubs and produce a coastal scrub vegetation. And
Jon Keeley:
00:49:53
that's really the natural state. The problem is, is people don't
Jon Keeley:
00:49:57
necessarily like that natural state.
Mendel Skulski:
00:49:59
I actually don't get it. What does he mean by
Mendel Skulski:
00:50:02
"natural state"?
Adam Huggins:
00:50:03
I mean, what does anybody mean what that term?
Adam Huggins:
00:50:05
What he's referring to is succession.
Jon Keeley:
00:50:08
People talk about how shrublands are encroaching.
Jon Keeley:
00:50:12
The word encroachment is really a misnomer. Encroaching means
Jon Keeley:
00:50:16
you're moving into a system where it's not natural. When we
Jon Keeley:
00:50:20
see shrubs moving into grasslands, that's not
Jon Keeley:
00:50:23
encroachment, it's returning to the original state, due to the
Jon Keeley:
00:50:27
removal of human interference through frequent burning. Get
Jon Keeley:
00:50:32
over the idea that they should be grasslands. They're not
Jon Keeley:
00:50:35
grasslands.
Adam Huggins:
00:50:36
One of Jon's papers compares the Bay Area —
Adam Huggins:
00:50:39
so that's coastal California — with the Sierra Nevadas, in the
Adam Huggins:
00:50:42
interior. Up in the mountains, lightning strikes are super
Adam Huggins:
00:50:46
common, and so were wildfires historically. But in coastal
Adam Huggins:
00:50:50
California, lightning strikes are almost unheard of.
Jon Keeley:
00:50:53
The bottom line is historically, those landscapes
Jon Keeley:
00:50:58
which are dominated by grasslands, if you take
Jon Keeley:
00:51:01
livestock off and you don't do anything with the burning — you
Jon Keeley:
00:51:05
just allow a natural frequency to occur. They all return to
Jon Keeley:
00:51:09
shrublands. And it's because there is no natural frequent
Jon Keeley:
00:51:12
fire regime in the East Bay. If you look at lightning ignitions
Jon Keeley:
00:51:15
in the East Bay, I think counties like Alameda and Contra
Jon Keeley:
00:51:19
Costa maybe have two lightning fires every 100 years. They
Jon Keeley:
00:51:23
don't have a high fire frequency.
Adam Huggins:
00:51:25
So historically, if fire was keeping lands clear,
Adam Huggins:
00:51:30
and there's no lightning to light the fires...
Mendel Skulski:
00:51:33
Then Indigenous people were lighting fire, which
Mendel Skulski:
00:51:36
we know because they've been telling us.
Adam Huggins:
00:51:39
Yes, Indigenous people were lighting fires
Adam Huggins:
00:51:42
throughout coastal California, to create open ecosystems — to
Adam Huggins:
00:51:45
produce acorns, and wildflower seeds, and game, and other
Adam Huggins:
00:51:50
cultural values.
Adam Huggins:
00:51:51
I would call this familiar history. What's your point?
Jon Keeley:
00:51:51
The grasslands produced seed bearing plants
Jon Keeley:
00:51:54
that were a lot more valuable to them than the shrublands. So
Jon Keeley:
00:51:58
Native Americans started managing their landscape through
Jon Keeley:
00:52:02
burning. When the Europeans came on the scene, they basically
Jon Keeley:
00:52:06
exacerbated the situation by greatly increasing fire
Jon Keeley:
00:52:09
frequency, in large part because they wanted to get rid of woody
Jon Keeley:
00:52:14
vegetation and replace it with herbaceous vegetation because it
Jon Keeley:
00:52:18
was better for grazing. And in fact, this is a global pattern
Adam Huggins:
00:52:21
Well, my point is that, if many of these
Adam Huggins:
00:52:22
throughout the world. Wherever Europeans invaded a landscape,
Adam Huggins:
00:52:26
they eliminated the woody vegetation, and they replaced it
Adam Huggins:
00:52:30
with herbaceous vegetation. They also brought a lot of herbaceous
Adam Huggins:
00:52:35
species from Europe. Those species were very aggressive and
Adam Huggins:
00:52:36
non-native annual grasslands aren't really doing what
Adam Huggins:
00:52:39
have the ability to take over disturbed landscapes. A lot of
Adam Huggins:
00:52:43
what we see today, when you look in California at any herbaceous
Adam Huggins:
00:52:47
vegetation and coastal region, most all of it is non-native,
Adam Huggins:
00:52:49
Indigenous people created them to do, and at the same time they
Adam Huggins:
00:52:51
invasive species from Europe that are better adapted to that
Adam Huggins:
00:52:55
disturbance regime. And so we've lost a lot of our native
Adam Huggins:
00:52:59
shrubland vegetation. It's been replaced by non native grasslands.
Adam Huggins:
00:53:20
are creating fire danger, and require all of these inputs to
Adam Huggins:
00:53:24
maintain as mostly novel ecosystems, like what are we
Adam Huggins:
00:53:27
doing here? Why not just allow the native shrublands and native
Adam Huggins:
00:53:32
oak woodlands that are trying so hard to come back to do just
Adam Huggins:
00:53:36
that? They are super biodiverse and super important for native
Adam Huggins:
00:53:40
wildlife as well. They're more fire resistant, and they require
Adam Huggins:
00:53:44
much less work to maintain. We could use our, you know,
Adam Huggins:
00:53:48
admittedly limited resources to restore native grasslands
Adam Huggins:
00:53:51
wherever it seems practical or feasible. And then we could
Adam Huggins:
00:53:55
allow shrub lands and woodlands to return on other sites — where
Adam Huggins:
00:53:59
it's not so practical.
Mendel Skulski:
00:54:01
So you're saying that just because Indigenous
Mendel Skulski:
00:54:05
people, and then Europeans kept all of these ecosystems open
Mendel Skulski:
00:54:09
manually, it doesn't mean that we have to keep doing it. And
Mendel Skulski:
00:54:14
that it might not even be the best approach in the climate
Mendel Skulski:
00:54:16
crisis.
Adam Huggins:
00:54:17
Yes.
Mendel Skulski:
00:54:18
So is this Jon's proposal or yours?
Adam Huggins:
00:54:22
Oh, this is maybe my realization. And, you know, I
Adam Huggins:
00:54:26
guess it's blowing my mind because I grew up in these novel
Adam Huggins:
00:54:29
grasslands, breathing in all the pollen and sneezing like crazy,
Adam Huggins:
00:54:33
but I'm not alone.
Laura Cunningham:
00:54:34
I actually completely agree with you. You
Laura Cunningham:
00:54:37
know, my vision for parts of the Bay Area would be to have a
Laura Cunningham:
00:54:41
mosaic of coastal scrub, coyote brush, and then you know, a
Laura Cunningham:
00:54:47
patch of prairie here and an oak woodland there. And I actually
Laura Cunningham:
00:54:50
think that's how it used to be for hundreds of years. I think
Laura Cunningham:
00:54:53
it was a complex shifting patchwork of different habitats.
Laura Cunningham:
00:54:59
And so yeah, have one area full of coyote brush. It's a native
Laura Cunningham:
00:55:02
plant. It shouldn't be, you know, always eliminated. Rabbits
Laura Cunningham:
00:55:07
and white-crowned sparrows nest in coyote brush — you need that
Laura Cunningham:
00:55:11
too. You know this, either-or absolutism we get in our
Laura Cunningham:
00:55:16
restoration thinking land management? No, I think we
Laura Cunningham:
00:55:20
should have a complex mosaic, including the coyote brush.
Mendel Skulski:
00:55:25
Well, that makes two of you. What about Jon?
Adam Huggins:
00:55:31
Well, Jon is a fire guy, remember? So while
Adam Huggins:
00:55:35
Lynn was expressing concern about the higher fuel loads that
Adam Huggins:
00:55:38
you find in shrublands, and woodlands and forests, in part
Adam Huggins:
00:55:41
one, Jon is actually much more worried about the places that
Adam Huggins:
00:55:45
tend to ignite more easily. Because no ignition, no fire.
Jon Keeley:
00:55:50
Most fires start in grasslands. And most of those
Jon Keeley:
00:55:53
grasslands are non-native annual grasses, because they're very
Jon Keeley:
00:55:57
flammable, they carry a fire very rapidly. So if your concern
Jon Keeley:
00:56:01
is to reduce fires in the landscape, then we probably want
Jon Keeley:
00:56:06
to convert those systems back into the native shrublands,
Jon Keeley:
00:56:10
which are less amenable to frequent fires.
Mendel Skulski:
00:56:13
This has been a lot to take in. But I guess I'd
Mendel Skulski:
00:56:16
have to say that argument number five goes something like these
Mendel Skulski:
00:56:19
novel grasslands could be allowed to develop into native
Mendel Skulski:
00:56:24
shrublands and woodlands. And that there are benefits to that.
Adam Huggins:
00:56:29
Yeah. And I mean, one thing that all of the folks
Adam Huggins:
00:56:33
that I talked to agreed about is that all of these questions are
Adam Huggins:
00:56:37
really a matter of what we value the most. Do we value beef
Adam Huggins:
00:56:41
production and small family ranches? Do we value the
Adam Huggins:
00:56:45
recovery of riparian ecosystems? Or the survival of grassland
Adam Huggins:
00:56:49
birds? Or super rare wildflowers? Or beavers? Do we
Adam Huggins:
00:56:53
value grasslands or shrublands?
Jon Keeley:
00:56:56
That's really the heart of the problem — coming up
Jon Keeley:
00:56:59
with what your goal is. There's no question that, for a lot of
Jon Keeley:
00:57:04
reasons, people prefer open grasslands. If you want just a
Jon Keeley:
00:57:08
pleasant scene with lots of grasslands, we're probably there
Jon Keeley:
00:57:12
for a lot of people. If your concern is natives versus
Jon Keeley:
00:57:16
non-natives and the conservation value, we're not there for a lot
Jon Keeley:
00:57:20
of our landscapes. If your concern is erosion control,
Jon Keeley:
00:57:24
we're not there for a lot of our landscapes, because the
Jon Keeley:
00:57:27
grasslands don't hold it. If your concern is the length of
Jon Keeley:
00:57:31
the fire season, right now we're seeing fires that have increased
Jon Keeley:
00:57:35
in the duration of the fire season, lasting much longer. A
Jon Keeley:
00:57:39
lot of that is due to the invasion on grasses which carry
Jon Keeley:
00:57:43
fire for a much longer period in the year than the native
Jon Keeley:
00:57:47
shrublands. So you really have to decide what you want.
Adam Huggins:
00:57:52
And on the other side of the fence, Lynn said
Adam Huggins:
00:57:55
very much the same thing.
Lynn Huntsinger:
00:57:57
That's the problem with all these things.
Lynn Huntsinger:
00:57:59
It's an opinion, a policy decision, a human decision, a
Lynn Huntsinger:
00:58:03
value judgment. What's good or bad is up for grabs. It's a
Lynn Huntsinger:
00:58:07
definition by people. Shrubs, grass, forests — it's a human
Lynn Huntsinger:
00:58:11
decision, to a certain extent. There's natural limitations, of
Lynn Huntsinger:
00:58:15
course. But what we're experiencing with climate change
Lynn Huntsinger:
00:58:18
means that we have to come to terms with that, because we're
Lynn Huntsinger:
00:58:21
heading into a new climate.
Mendel Skulski:
00:58:27
So here we are.
Adam Huggins:
00:58:29
Here we are, heading into a brand new climate
Adam Huggins:
00:58:33
at the end of our final episode, with more questions than
Adam Huggins:
00:58:36
answers, as usual.
Mendel Skulski:
00:58:38
Yeah, maybe that was to be expected.
Adam Huggins:
00:58:40
Yeah. I mean, it's difficult for us. I have done my
Adam Huggins:
00:58:44
best to present these arguments clearly. But I do think it's
Adam Huggins:
00:58:48
really important to reiterate that there are just some
Adam Huggins:
00:58:50
fundamental disagreements here, both in terms of values and also
Adam Huggins:
00:58:55
basic facts. For example, here's Jon, reflecting some of my own
Adam Huggins:
00:59:00
frustrations in reporting this series.
Jon Keeley:
00:59:02
I've heard at least four different accounts from
Jon Keeley:
00:59:06
different proponents of grazing. And they only talk about the
Jon Keeley:
00:59:09
positive things, and they don't talk about the negative. And,
Jon Keeley:
00:59:12
for example, I travel a lot across the coastal ranges of
Jon Keeley:
00:59:16
California, and those landscapes are grazed and they've been
Jon Keeley:
00:59:20
grazed for a long time. That's the most horrible looking
Jon Keeley:
00:59:24
landscape I can imagine. It's nothing but cow tracks all
Jon Keeley:
00:59:27
across the landscape. They try and suggest that "Well, grazing
Jon Keeley:
00:59:33
has value as increasing biodiversity", and they refer to
Jon Keeley:
00:59:38
the fact that "Well, grazing reduces the thatch of non native
Jon Keeley:
00:59:41
grasses and that opens habitat". I haven't seen it. I've seen a
Jon Keeley:
00:59:46
lot of grazed areas, and I've never seen grazed areas that
Jon Keeley:
00:59:49
have higher biodiversity, just never seen it.
Adam Huggins:
00:59:52
And then on the other hand, from folks like Stu
Adam Huggins:
00:59:55
Weiss, you hear things like this.
Stu Weiss:
00:59:57
What I often find is that the kind of hardcore
Stu Weiss:
01:00:01
anti-grazing people always pick what have to be the high impact
Stu Weiss:
01:00:06
areas, like around watering troughs, and places that are
Stu Weiss:
01:00:09
very heavily used. And then they they don't go, you know, a
Stu Weiss:
01:00:13
couple 100 meters away and see that, "oh, look, there's lots of
Stu Weiss:
01:00:19
room for the wildflowers here, as opposed to the ungrazed areas
Stu Weiss:
01:00:24
that are just, you know, a build up of thatch"
Adam Huggins:
01:00:27
And if you speak to ranchers and rangeland
Adam Huggins:
01:00:29
managers like Clayton, you might hear something like this,
Clayton Koopmann:
01:00:33
You still have your your hardcore doubters or
Clayton Koopmann:
01:00:36
anti-grazers. I don't think you're ever gonna change their
Clayton Koopmann:
01:00:39
opinion no matter what you show them, which is unfortunate. But
Clayton Koopmann:
01:00:42
that's going to be the way it is with I think any subject —
Clayton Koopmann:
01:00:45
you're just gonna have your far left and your far right and
Clayton Koopmann:
01:00:48
probably won't change their opinion.
Mendel Skulski:
01:00:50
Well, Adam, I'd say we've heard more than a few
Mendel Skulski:
01:00:55
discouraging words.
Adam Huggins:
01:00:56
More than seldom. And I know it's easy to feel
Adam Huggins:
01:01:01
grazed and confused. But even with all of the disagreements, I
Adam Huggins:
01:01:05
think everyone that I spoke to cares a lot, and knows a lot
Adam Huggins:
01:01:09
about the land. And they are all working in different ways to
Adam Huggins:
01:01:12
promote biodiversity, to address the climate crisis, and to
Adam Huggins:
01:01:16
support human values as well. And since it does all come down
Adam Huggins:
01:01:20
to what we value, I want to leave listeners with a few final
Adam Huggins:
01:01:23
thoughts about the lands where the sky isn't cloudy all day.
Mendel Skulski:
01:01:28
So definitely not here.
Adam Huggins:
01:01:31
That's right. So one last time, let's hear it for
Adam Huggins:
01:01:36
rangelands.
Lynn Huntsinger:
01:01:37
Grazing is not a black box. It's not a yes or
Lynn Huntsinger:
01:01:41
no thing. It's a when, where, how many, why thing, right? It's
Lynn Huntsinger:
01:01:45
complicated. You can have three cows, you can have 10, you can
Lynn Huntsinger:
01:01:48
have 100 sheep. There's a lot of decisions. They can be there in
Lynn Huntsinger:
01:01:51
the spring, fall, they can be there for two weeks, they can be
Lynn Huntsinger:
01:01:53
there for a year. You make that decision based on what you know
Lynn Huntsinger:
01:01:57
about the impacts of what they do. It's not just grazing.
Ashley Ahearn:
01:02:02
It's the fabric that stitches the community
Ashley Ahearn:
01:02:05
together. And that, to me is something that I'm not okay with
Ashley Ahearn:
01:02:09
just giving up on or just throwing out because we've
Ashley Ahearn:
01:02:11
decided beef is bad. What I want is a way to see those values.
Ashley Ahearn:
01:02:16
And that way of life is something that is worth
Ashley Ahearn:
01:02:18
preserving. But does need to be changed a little bit, does need
Ashley Ahearn:
01:02:22
to be made more sustainable, does need to be brought into the
Ashley Ahearn:
01:02:24
21st century in terms of how we care for the land and how we use
Ashley Ahearn:
01:02:27
cows as a tool.
Adam Huggins:
01:02:30
And finally, let's hear it for rewilding.
Laura Cunningham:
01:02:33
I mean, I'm definitely for more wildlife and
Laura Cunningham:
01:02:37
more native grasslands. And I think it would be nice to have
Laura Cunningham:
01:02:41
less cattle. Cattle are so abundant. Even Point Reyes
Laura Cunningham:
01:02:45
National Seashore is full of cattle, in a lot of it — and
Laura Cunningham:
01:02:49
takes away from the elk. If we could have some parts and
Laura Cunningham:
01:02:53
preserves that are truly rewilded — that are managed,
Laura Cunningham:
01:02:57
maybe with prescribed fire, and native elk grazers, and less
Laura Cunningham:
01:03:02
cattle on the landscape. Where maybe wolves could be able to
Laura Cunningham:
01:03:07
travel through the state more like they're trying to do. Big
Laura Cunningham:
01:03:10
networks of rewilded parks and preserves that are connected by
Laura Cunningham:
01:03:15
wildlife corridors, where wildlife can safely move without
Laura Cunningham:
01:03:19
traffic impacts or hunting. It seems like a gigantic ask to me,
Laura Cunningham:
01:03:23
but I think we really should consider it.
Bob Beschta:
01:03:26
This is based on our best science as we know
Bob Beschta:
01:03:28
today, what we think these ecosystems need. And so this is
Bob Beschta:
01:03:32
why we put forth this proposal. But in order for it to move
Bob Beschta:
01:03:35
forward now it really has to be grabbed by others, particularly
Bob Beschta:
01:03:39
those with political component. See if we can get changes in how
Bob Beschta:
01:03:43
we manage public lands in the American West so that agencies
Bob Beschta:
01:03:47
change what they do. So, it's like recovery of an ecosystem.
Bob Beschta:
01:03:50
You may start slowly at first, but after we begin to see the
Bob Beschta:
01:03:54
benefits, we think that this would increase the pressure to
Bob Beschta:
01:03:58
do more and more and more on public lands.
Mendel Skulski:
01:04:07
This episode of Future Ecologies features the
Mendel Skulski:
01:04:10
voices of Bob Beschta, Ashley Ahearn, Jon Keely, Laura
Mendel Skulski:
01:04:17
Cunningham, Lynn Huntsinger, Stuart Weiss, and Clayton
Mendel Skulski:
01:04:21
Koopman. Music by Thumbug, C. Diab, Meg Iredale, Saltwater
Mendel Skulski:
01:04:28
Hank, and Sunfish Moon Light, cover art by Ale Silva, and was
Mendel Skulski:
01:04:35
produced by Adam Huggins and me, Mendel Skulski — with sound
Mendel Skulski:
01:04:39
design help from our intern, Brennen King, and with special
Mendel Skulski:
01:04:44
thanks to Saxon Richardson.
Mendel Skulski:
01:04:48
You can find the proposal to rewild the American West, along
Mendel Skulski:
01:04:52
with all of our other citations, a transcript of this episode,
Mendel Skulski:
01:04:55
and lots more on our website - futureecologies.net
Mendel Skulski:
01:05:01
This podcast exists because of support from listeners just like
Mendel Skulski:
01:05:05
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Mendel Skulski:
01:05:09
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Mendel Skulski:
01:05:29
As always, thanks for listening. Talk to you soon.